433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[IH]

Sweet, hi all rereading.

[IH]

I SHOULD, should now barring something happening, finish my reread tonight.

[IH]

Alright, I'm going to respond to things as I see them, even if I'm repeating others.

I have to agree with Dodgy on this one, while promoting discussion at this point is what we need to do, liberal use of the FOS would be my preference to willy-nilly bandwagonning, especially to put someone halfway to lynch before we have had any kind of discussion at all seems reckless. Though I see him in no danger I am also going to remove my random vote Unvote: Superstring91 until we have more discussion.

and then, anyone who hammers is almost certainly scum, Dodgy should have known that at least.

FoS:Dodgy

Here is what I meant... It is day 1 page 2... I understand we don't have much to go on at the moment but I have seen many times when a careless early bandwagon got out of control and the scum were able to mislynch and cover it up the next day... I have seen this from experienced players and inexperienced players so all I was saying is that we need to moderate the bandwagons and not let them get too big unintentionally

If I would have been here when this was made, I would have asked for examples, just for a read.

Not to mention it is impossible to control a bandwagon. Any player can enlarge the bandwagon, and if town or scum don't believe what you said is valid, they're going to add on votes anyway.

Iv'e heard some real crap in my time but that has to be some of the best LOL.
Also, the fact that you then voted me just adds to my suspicions about you.
You throw your votes around too easily.
This is often the game play of scum as when it comes to jumping onto a band wagon, they can use the defense that they have flippently voted all game.

Dodgy, you were on page 3 of this game. Votes are going to be pretty flippant for a while.

Random voting came in after a few months of the games invention.
It wasn't a planned thing, it just caught on as it was quite dreary just saying Hi.
Once random votes have been placed (which is merely a ritual) then often people unvote and then FOS for a day or two until one or more players get a stronger hunch and vote or scum decide to jump onto someones back. Having said that, any player is free to act as they wish.

No no no, FoS is too loose for most. Votes are usually how it starts out. FoS's are mainly for when you have your vote on someone you don't want to move it to, or that's how I use it.

By not unvoting, in effect you are saying that you support the wagon that formed after your random vote. Just because your vote was random when you put it on, doesn't mean that it stays that way; It should be viewed the same as the other contributors to the wagon. Pretending otherwise is sneaky.

This is untrue, unless an actual case springs up, and there is real danger in him being lynched.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you have only been playing for a couple of weeks and being privy to all members lists and their IP addresses, I can see that you havn't been a player before that date under a different name, so I ask again, are you really experienced enough to make such a statement?

Quit trying to use your experience as a tool to convince people of a case. We do have a wiki you know. Plus, Mafiascum isn't the only site that people can play mafia on. Just because you are experienced on this particular site doesn't mean you are exempt from others claims. This was not justifiable.

unvote (if voting), Vote:Dodgy

Plus I hate elitism.

I'm not rattled at all. I agree that discussion has to take place and this certainly got it going but I think some people are taking my comments rather more seriously than they need to be taken.
@ Dasquian, I'm guessing your voting me because you think I'm scum? Well just for the record, I'm not.
As for my

move to discredit The Fonz's provenance as a mafia player
I was under no circumstances trying to discredit him as a player in any way, just merely asking if his "Classic scumtell" comment could be justified with only a couple of weeks under his belt on this site.
Anyway, I have said my bit and discussion has started. Keep your votes on me if you like but I will have the last laugh.

1.That was the lamest defense ever.
2.Way to backpedal, you were clearly challenging him on that point with your experience, along with your comments about if he played on another site, and you were sure on who was who.

Quit it with your Scumtells and just play the game mate!
Youre forgetting one other reason why someone claims Town, because they are Town! LOL

That's pretty much the essence of mafia..... looking for tells, and you forget when some claims town, it's either because their town... or scum! LAWL!

There is a VERY good chance that we have 3 Scum in this game and my guess is that you've all be outed in day 1.
I think the 3 scum are The Fonz, Dasquian and superstring91.
All 3 of you know that I'm not scum and thats why you are all going in for the kill and to get people onside.
If however you do manage this, please town, remember the mob!
As for your scumtells The Fonz, I hope for your sake you are scum because if by small chance that youre not, youre very bad at reading this game.

Mischaracterization. You've made them out to be three people who are attacking you for no reason and are doing it irrationally, but you don't even mention the possibility that one or two of them are scum. Or that they don't even know you're town (which I doubt at this point) because SK's are common in mini regulars.

Not only that, he never even addresses their concerns, he's just attacking them in an OMGUS way.

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.

Hmmmm, didn't you just make a post that said "When someone claims they are town, that means they are town?"

i have to agree. i dont think pointing out scumtells is a great idea right now keep those ideas to yourself, and maybe analyze them later.

Why? I have said this before, and I'll say it again.

Mafia is a game of an informed minority versus an uninformed majority. A faction wins when they become the informed majority. Town's object is to become informed (find scum), scum's object is to become the majority (kill town).

So, unless you have power role information, if you are town you should not with hold any information, as that furthers the town's objective of becoming informed.

About Classic Scum tells. Whenever you use them, they should be explained I believe. The only reason you should ever hold it against someone is if they just say it, and stick a vote on someone. (I personally spot appeal to emotion alot and point it out)


I like Kilem's post 82

I'm not sure of Eletriar's post 94, Panicky is viewed as scummy usually, not to mention how he tried to throw his weight of experience around.

Hi people, sorry for not posting but I've just gotten out of Hospital.
To The Fonz, I think I have answered your questions fully.
I claimed myself town and I agree with whoever said, its an insignificant thing to do (or words to that effect) but I also laid a few hints in with my posts. Its a shame that I need to point this out again, as its really not good for the town to do so but it all helps in the learning for newish players.
Anyway, I've read the thread and I'm still a little concerned at the players that hav'nt posted much.
Hopefully will be able to post Tomorrow.

Why point out breadcrumbs so early? Not to mention, Fonz's arguments were not irrational, and breadcrumbs really do mean NOTHING, especially if you point them out in the early game.

P.S To The Fonz, go back and read my posts, if you're not scum and you know how to read into this game like you claim to, with all your "scumtell expretise" LOL, then get off my ***king back!
If youre Town, you need a good kick up the arse for pushing me into what amounts to a role claim.
If you really were as ofait with this game as you like to portrait, as town, you would have picked up on all the "so" obvious hints I have given and packed up your crap.
I can only conclude that you are either bullshitting about your Knowledge/experience of this game or you are Mafia
Therefor...
Vote: The Fonz

Dodgy, no one forced you to claim. You're mischaracterizing the Fonz's intentions. Like i said, Breadcrumbs mean nothing, and the only obvious hints that you layed down were scummy enough to be voted for. You were the only one who proclaimed extreme mafia experience I believe......

I've so FUCKING had enough of inexperienced players that talk fucking shit and try to pretend to everyone, that they know how to play this game with insight, ie The Fonz.

Instead of attacking the Fonz, why didn't you answer his arguments? It was pointless to even play if you're not going to listen and actually play the games...

I only joined this game because my fellow creators/friends, Jeep, mathcam and MEMe convinced me to.
I thougfht this was a mini with no theme, not a newbie with a certain pereson that talks bollocks!
I quit and I can because I set this fucking site up, co-wrote the "Wikki" that people keep refering to and thought that I would be in a game with players that had the intelligence to read between the lines.
Here goes peeps....
I am/was The Doctor

You pointlessly claim, and then complain because you came under some heat from a player with rational arguments?

Now listen up, yes I've given up and its its really not good for the town but I thought, being in a mini game,which by the way, was my origional concept, that the far majority of players would have experience.
Town listen...... either The Fonz is full of shit or he is Mafia! My guess, he's both.
Have fun and next time you see me in a game, make sure you know how to fucking play the thing!
I'm not refereing to the majority of players in this game but just to those that claim to have knowledge yet refer to "my Wikki" which I sat down and wrote all those years back, for back up.
The Wikki was never set up to be a bench mark for quotation, just a point of reference for people to use as they joined the game as a new player.
Last post.

I hate to say it, but Dodgy is a MORON. Seriously, he got mad over a RATIONAL case, and just tried to flaunt his experience instead of actually using it.
I see how Eletriar tried to get the game started back in post 122

There has to be a serious motion to lynch CES, though. LynchAllLiars. I don't know about anyone else, but I would like to see CES genuinely claim here.

Now this warrants an

FoS

I think. If that's not CES's real claim, you don't push for the real one from a replacement.

Lynch All Liars has it's place. This is not one of them.
I think this was more Fonz following a meta he's heard instead of a scummy action trying to out a power role.

Dodgy probably claimed Doc, so his role would get killed on night 1 so his actual role would be taken out of the game.

FoS:Sweeny

I think.

Dasquian is protown IMO

I'm not sure of The Fonz's obstinance on the point of CES.....

But the only situation in which that seems to have us coming out ahead is if Dodgy/CES was a townie, lying about being a doctor, which is the precise situation for which LAL was created.

Actually, LAL was probably created to make telling the truth a protown action and lying an antitown action. That way, telling the truth is encouraged, and town becomes the informed majority (win condition) quicker.

You know what? Neither do I. It's supposed to have been a trivial bit of flippancy, but I was wrong to assume that dead doctor == scum Dodgy/CES. As I've been saying, Dodgy could have been pro-town and lied about being the doctor. So I retract that. However, I would not like to be in CES' shoes tomorrow if someone else dies overnight and is the doctor.

I disagree. Dodgy could have claimed doc for a number of reasons (Mad scum trying to clear his replacement, bitter town trying to get killed, SK with a safe claim to go ahead and use before he leaves)

I agree with Pete that Superstring looked a little opportunistic in post 207.

FoS:Kilem

who was clearly watching the game, but didn't post at all. She immediately responded when Pete brought it up.

FoS:Gork

for his post 271.

I'm really tempted to edit that last post to take out the "off"

<3

The Kilem wagon looks weird.....It seems to have sprang out of nowhere.
Nanooks feelings seem to echo mine, except for CES's claim retraction.

Overall, I believe that there has been an underlying scumminess I've felt from all of SweenyTodd's posts, plus I most definitely did not agree with Inhim about the Fonz. Yes, the Fonz may have been wrong about some things, but he wasn't necessarily scummy in his arguments.

The closest thing was persuing the claim for CES from the lynch all liars meta, and based on posts I've seen from the Fonz in another game or two, he seems to use metas more.

unvote, Vote:InhimshallIbe

[IH]

Man, IH is now looking scummy to me after that argument. Perhaps I am just paranoid.

1

Dodgy was clearly certifiably nuts, so I don't know how much analysis of his posts is helpful. From my read-through, I got the feeling he was just plain pissed off about the suspicion he was getting from Fonz and Dasquain.

2

Now, if he was mafia, why he would he get pissed off enough to quit the game over being "found out"? It doesn't make sense to get pissed off over your opponent's good play unless you are 5 years old.

3

The scenario of Dodgy being pro-town and getting pissed about Fonz's "scumtrap" seems more logical to me. I could be totally wrong, like I said it is tough to analyze the postings of a crazy man. If he is scum, then he is INCREDIBLY immature and I guess I just like to give people a little more credit than that - even people who are nuts.

It also doesn't help, from my perspective, that IH is defending other people who have tripped my scumdar, Nanook and Kilem.

1.Dodgy wasn't lying about his experience. He has been here this long. So he should not have acted like that.

2.WIFOM, this is null imo, especially with some of the arguments Dodgy was throwing around.

3.They were logical points, and not a "scumtrap", clearly you did not read those posts.

Pie's post 323 looked logical to me.

And, even with it, I still want to lynch kilmenator. IH, I guess fault me for not knowing The Fonz "uses metas more," but I think in this game he's scummy for pushing his argument for so long. It just cries of a desperate attempt.

Yes, it seemed desperate, yet the whole time he did not use an illogical argument, he did not back down and stood by his stance, did he not? Not to mention that points and arguments he brought up in the beginning of the game.

[IH]

I read through the entire thread, bub. All the logical points were building off the suspicion generated by the scumtrap. There was a whole avalanche of arguing there, but the scumtrap was the snowball that started it.

I never saw a scumtrap. Would you quote it for me this is what I was questioning and saying you didn't read about.

[IH]

Actually no it's not. They were talknig of starting the game off. He wasn't specifically making a trap, he was bandwagoning to get the game started with conversation about the wagon.

In other words, random voting leads to those sort of reactions and therefore he was expecting this.

This is what is generally going to happen in games, and if he had read a bunch of other games, this would be what he would expect.

Don't believe me? Go read some older games.

[IH]

Now you're just talking semantics. To me, if I take an action while looking for a specific reaction from scum, that's a scumtrap.

No, I did not say a specific reaction. I said a reaction like that, which starts conversation.

From the context that Fonz used it in, I can tell you that was most definitely not a scum trap.

Read it again.

Nowhere in particular.

But Dodgy's complete overreaction was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for when placing my third vote

. I can't speak for Dasquian, as I probably wouldn't have placed that vote.

Plus, Dasquian's quickly following-on with the fourth vote allows us to have the mini equivalent of the 'second vote debate' in newbies.

Unvote

Vote: Dodgy

It was the kind of thing he was hoping for. What would have happened had Dodgy not responded in the way? The game would have stalled.

Also, even if it was a scumtrap, I fail to see how that indicates alignment.....

[IH]

The reason is could be an alignment indicator, is because Dodgy got pissed. And it makes more sense, to me, to get pissed when you are a townie stumbling into another townie's scumtrap (perhaps a poorly planned one) and then as a result Fonz says "Haha look who I caught!" But it is also a possibility that Dodgy is simply a sore loser and he got pissed for being legitimately found out as scum. That seems incredibly immature, like I said.

No, thats not why he got mad. He repeatedly stated he got mad because a more inexperienced player was accusing him of things.

Also don't take things so seriously.

Would anyone like to post a case on Kilemnator?

[IH]

The only case I see against Kilm is that he's posted a total of 5 times since May 14th, all consisting of 2 sentences or less, and his last two posts both stated that he'd read the thread and get back to us .. One on May 30th, the other today.

I'm sure there are other reasons prior in the game, but from what I see of a quick glance of just his posts, that's what I got.

So how do we get any information from a crappy reason to lynch, with no useful interactions?

[IH]

The goal is not to make the game less confusing, the goal is to win. What is more straightforward is not always what is right.

Wrong. The goal to win is to make things simpler, which is most commonly making it more straightforward.

Do I need to go into my "Town should not withhold information" rant?

[IH]

Clearly you haven't heard my town should not with hold information rant.

The game of mafia is an uninformed majority versus an informed minority. The scum win when the become the majority (Kill off enough town), the town wins when they become informed (Lynch the scum and figure out who is what).

Therefore you can deduce the goal of the game is for your group to become the informed majority correct?

Ok, so the only reason you should with hold information (such as suspicions, opinions, thoughts etc) is if it is related to your role. Anything else is just anti town play. Not necessarily scummy, but it is detrimental to the town.

So if the town's ability to win is based on becoming informed, then by correlation simplifying things should, in theory, make becoming informed easier.

[IH]

nobody reads anything in detail.

Ok, so the only reason you should with hold information (such as suspicions, opinions, thoughts etc) is if it is related to your role. Anything else is just anti town play. Not necessarily scummy, but it is detrimental to the town.

[IH]

I will say that I find it interesting how fast certain people were to jump on me.

[IH]

MBLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ahem, I will catch up on the thread tonight, sorry for the bit of lurking.

[IH]

Bah go

CPE

Town.

[IH]

= \