Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Jagged Appliance]

Hey guys, I'll get up to date and post something tomorrow.

[Jagged Appliance]

Ok, I caught up. I forgot to do this in my first post so UNVOTE:

I'm about to go to bed so I'll just say a couple of things. I don't like the Csareo wagon. His cases are bad but that just makes him an easy mislynch. Like Anatole said, he's not likely to be NKed too often. Here's something specific I don't like from post 766:

To put it in your phraseology: Csareo is working towards a scum win condition by (1) pushing a bad case against someone who looks clearly town to me, thereby reducing the total town numbers, and (2) developing a persona that excuses a lot of his suspicious actions, thereby helping to protect himself against adverse actions.

(1) Csareo is making a bad case, yes, but town does that all the time, not just scum.
(2) I'm here to win this game, nothing else. I don't care about his persona. This also makes it sound like this is a policy lynch. Is it?

I think TTH is right that the Csareo wagon is suspicious. A few players have come out of the shadows and essentially taken potshots at an easy target without really doing much else.

Also, my gut didn't like Flubber so I ISOed him and it's one-liners all the way down. I don't know how I feel about that. I did find this though:

unvote
vote: Csaero

I think that was a slip

Guys!! Guys!! I know where the next wagon's going!!

Goodnight!

[Jagged Appliance]

@Jagged Alliance: Anyone besides Flubber that you don't like? Could you be more specific about who you don't like on the Csareo wagon? Do you feel Csareo's wagon sprang up to try and save BBT? What about BBT and his wagon?

Doogal has had his eyes on GreyIce(my slot) and BBT from very early on and doesn't seem to be looking elsewhere at all.

Scrambles throws down an RVS vote in post 84, votes Csareo on a suspected slip and doesn't do much else. Omph replaced in and has contributed virtually nothing either. Also didn't unvote for some reason.

Rufflig refutes Csareo case in 458 and then votes Csareo. Voting for a bad case doesn't neccessarily follow. Are you strongly townreading BBT Rufflig?

Did Csareo's wagon appear to save BBT? I'm not sure. I lean towards no.

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

@Flubber, please elaborate on both these points.

It's like you didn't even read the anything of Post 766 except what you quoted.

I reread it and there is nothing there. Your previous post says BBT is so town it hurts. That is a reason to vote Csareo for mistakes in his case but I don't see how BBT is so incredibly town. Could you explain?

[Jagged Appliance]

Thinking it over, Jagged, I think you may have confused what the quoted portion of 766 meant. TTH wanted a reason why Csareo-scum would be acting the way he was. I told her in the portion of 766 that you quoted.

However, why Csareo-scum would be acting in the manner that Csareo is acting in this game is is not synonymous with why I am voting Csareo. It just explains how Csareo's actions in this game are consistent with Csareo being scum.


I think that might clarify our miscommunication about 766.

You're right, I misunderstood. I think you just saved us both quite a bit of time

You agree with Anatole's read of BBT as "over-excited town" and I find myself agreeing - not to the point of "incredibly town" mind you. Problem is, Csareo seems similar to me. Loud, over-excited, but with a lot more mistakes. I'm not convinced by either wagon.

[Jagged Appliance]

Wow, this thread just took off. I don't read BBT or Csareo as scum.

[Jagged Appliance]

People have said that it's likely that either BBT or Csareo is scum because of the dynamics of the two wagons. Could someone explan this to me?

Right now I'm not happy with Omph's vote on Csareo which seems to be a remnant vote from Scrambles. I'm also not happy with Doogal's vote on BBT and would like to see Doogal respond to post 916. Apologies for low content but I'm still trying to sift through this thread and get a better grasp of it.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Mod, there's a mistake in the last VC, I'm not voting anyone atm.

Fixed, thanks!

Just to make sure UNVOTE:

I reread the thread, here are my reads:

Town:

Flubber
Wake
Green Crayons
Anatole
BBT

Null:

Omph
Rufflig
massive
Boon
TTH
Csareo

Scum:

Doogal

I feel like I can't get a good read on Csareo but I'd lynch him ahead of BBT, no question. Thoughts on Doogal coming soon.

[Jagged Appliance]

I retract my scumread on Doogal. I went back over him again and he reads town in his early play, checking GreyICE's assertion that Anatole was lying, asking questions of BBT and TTH. He unvotes to avoid a quickhammer which reads genuine and towny. He's mostly absent other than that. I don't like his answer to the 4th question Green Crayons asked but it's not enough to move him into scum territory. Sorry for all the nulls, I feel a bit out of my depth here.

[Jagged Appliance]

People are justifying their votes partly based their reads of those voting with and against them. I see my townreads on both wagons.

Csareo is only has 4 real votes in my eyes because Omph never voted for him. Omph's vote is actually from scrambles which was barely justified.

[Jagged Appliance]

Why are you reading BBT as town?
Are you suspicious that there are two wagons right now?

Yes, you're wagon makes me somewhat suspicious of BBT but I still think he's a similar case to you. Over-excited town. His vote-hopping is not a sufficient reason for me to vote him at all. However, I think BBT has been quite anti-town for the last ten pages or so, especially his conversation with Wake. I also don't like his references to his playstyle while he has that signature. I still feel this is more likely town v town than anything else but I will hammer if neccessary. I don't see any other wagons forming and we're approaching the deadline.

[Jagged Appliance]

Two people have just expressed an interest in forming a wagon or removing themselves from one of the current wagons.

What didn't you like about my conversation with Wake?

Meta and pla-ystyle are different things.

I'm going back to look at the case on Boon, I haven't read it yet.

You weren't very forthcoming with his questions.

I don't get it.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Jagged:

I would posit that most, if not all, of everything wake asked BBT in the past 10 pages regarding the neighbor scenario has already been asked and answered in this game.

I don't know if that changes how you feel about BBT's willingness to be forthcoming.

Not about the neighbour stuff which I think is bollocks tbh. Not exactly the last ten pages, more from page 37 onwards. Lots of short answers that seemed designed to get under Wake's skin.

[Jagged Appliance]

Stop with the insults Csareo.

@Doogal, on the switch issue, I'll hammer either of them to avoid a no-lynch.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Jagged:

huh

Jagged has no scumreads. This is concerning, coupled with the fact that GreyICE's ISO is near worthless.

Well?

Do you have a scumread?

Boon.

SK speculation was very weird. Stops being so trolly as soon as he gets voted for it. Post 170 he asks scrambles opinion on the neighbour thing and the LAL thing but I never saw him actually weigh in on those issues himself. I dislike post 353.

BBT on the other hand, I believe is flip flopping all over the place.

I don't think that's scummy neccessarily. Later you say the votes are opportunistic but I don't see that either.

I see originally why he would want his supposed neighbor to be possibly lynched, but when things started turning into a "we lynch one, if they flip town, we lynch the other one" kind of deal, he backed off. I believe he's probably going to bring this up later, when he would be more okay with being lynch.

What? When he's okay with being lynched? I don't understand this.

Afterwards, he sees Anatole vs Wake happening and picks a side. He's directly involved with the two, but he is staying under the radar. This makes me have a potential feeling that BBT is trying for a mislynch on either one of them leading into a second mislynch on the other.

He was in no way under the radar. This is fabrication with unsupported and far reaching speculation.

Boons has tunneled hard on BBT. I don't buy his reasons for voting him.

[Jagged Appliance]

Forgot this: VOTE: Boon

[Jagged Appliance]

So you guys actually had all these reasons you suspected Boon but were just bullshitting around on the town v town lynch options why?

I went back and took a closer look at him after your case. He was null for me before.

[Jagged Appliance]

Boon's claim sounds very dodgy to me, I don't believe him.

@Doogal, you said my scumread on you came out of nowhere. What does that even mean? And I don't know what you mean by your last post. Are you giving that as a reason to lynch BBT?

[Jagged Appliance]

@Doogal, I retracted my scumread on you after I went back and took a closer look at your posts.

@FakeGod, I agree, there has been a lot of very unproductive conversation in this thread.

[Jagged Appliance]

I replaced in less than a week ago and I've found it difficult to get into the thread.

[Jagged Appliance]

So it's me or TTH? I'm loving all the reasons people are giving for voting me, please keep them coming.

A few questions. Do you think scum would enter a game with two big static wagons and refuse to jump on and push through either of them? Why are you policy lynching after 80 pages?

GreyICE also lurked, managing a total of 10 posts before replacing out.

Because there are two independent players who lurked in the same slot, I would guess that lurking is stemming from the role, rather than the playstyle.

This reads like a prophylactic defense of your slot FakeGod.

You say I've been posting defensively. That's completely false considering this is the only time I've been under any real pressure. This is a defensive post.


On to TTH, who seems to be the only other possible lynch. I have no idea what to make of the Neighbourhood/Mason situation, it seems pretty bizzare. I'm not scumreading TTH. I like her early play where she brings attention to some of those on the periphery. I don't like that she didn't vote for massive or Rufflig, who she mentioned semi-regularly, as that would have brought more attention and pressure on them. I agree with BBT that she's not really pushed against him even though she's had her vote on him since post #0 and that is somewhat worrying to me. Weighing these up, she's basically null.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TTH

[Jagged Appliance]

You want to lynch me to strengthen your townread of Anatole? I don't understand that at all.

[Jagged Appliance]

If Csareo and BBT could stop bickering, it would be greatly appreciated.

The question now seems to be, do we lynch TTH and use the NK on night 1, with a high risk of a townie being killed thus costing us a day or do we lynch me and risk losing the NK. I think we're choosing the lesser of two evils right now, unfortunately. I think it comes down to TTH and whether she's confident enough in taking a shot.

[Jagged Appliance]

Holy shit, this thread is filled with what I can only describe as shitposting.

[Jagged Appliance]

@TTH I think I like that choice but it is a big risk to use your NK this early.

[Jagged Appliance]

If everyone could concentrate on the actual game and stop with this paraphrasing and screenshotting bullshit, it would help town greatly.

@TTH, we risk losing a whole day, don't we? It's likely you'll be wrong seen as we're on Day 1.

[Jagged Appliance]

Jagged Appliance, tell me why we should lynch TTH again

I never said we should TTH actually. I voted her when it was either me or her and before she had claimed. Now I'm waiting to see if we should use her ability or lynch someone else(most likely me it seems.)

[Jagged Appliance]

So FakeGod, are you against using TTH's ability?

[Jagged Appliance]

@FakeGod, You still want to lynch me?

[Jagged Appliance]

@FakeGod. 'k. Do you want to expand on those reasons? So far I have, lurking and to get a better read on Anatole. Anything more?

[Jagged Appliance]

@FakeGod. 'k. Do you want to expand on those reasons? So far I have, lurking and to get a better read on Anatole. Anything more?

Do you have a better idea?

You have only one scumread at a time, and your last scumread, Boons, is not up for lynch today.

I would lynch out of the group {massive, Anatole, Doogal, Rufflig}. I still think Boons' claim was really weird but I'm not comfortable going after an unCC'd PR.

[Jagged Appliance]

@TTH, have you decided whether or not you want to use your revenge kill? We have less than a day left.

[Jagged Appliance]

Whoever TTH shoots, she is likely to be wrong, wouldn't you agree Wake? I don't think a potshot is the best play for town.

[Jagged Appliance]

@TTH, I told you the set I'd lynch out of, given the choice. {massive, Anatole, Doogal, Rufflig} Tbh I'm not confident. You can see we have Anatole and Doogal in common but I don't know if that helps you.

[Jagged Appliance]

If TTH is lying about being Vengeful, I will note that you two are wanting her to wait and survive further into our game. If she flips Scum, that will put my curiosity on steroids.

'k.

You know I'm the backup lynch right?

[Jagged Appliance]

Like I said, I'm not confident. You've seen how shitty my reads have been this game.

[Jagged Appliance]

Yeah FakeGod, my reads changed after a rake of claims. How strange. Now, I'm here as the backup lynch and I'm not pushing TTH to use the shot. Clearly a survivalist strategy.

[Jagged Appliance]

If TTH is lying about being Vengeful, I will note that you two are wanting her to wait and survive further into our game. If she flips Scum, that will put my curiosity on steroids.

'k.

You know I'm the backup lynch right?

Do you want to be lynched or not?

I think I'd rather not be, but it might be preferable to a potshot.

[Jagged Appliance]

Yeah FakeGod, my reads changed after a rake of claims. How strange. Now, I'm here as the backup lynch and I'm not pushing TTH to use the shot. Clearly a survivalist strategy.

Walk me through how your reads changed from those into the ones now.

Why?

[Jagged Appliance]

Yeah FakeGod, my reads changed after a rake of claims. How strange. Now, I'm here as the backup lynch and I'm not pushing TTH to use the shot. Clearly a survivalist strategy.

Walk me through how your reads changed from those into the ones now.

Why?

You're saying I'm wrong.

I can't read your mind, so show me why I'm wrong.

Right, you can see a lot of Nulls there on my original list. Plus Doogal moved back to null after a closer look. Anatole moved out of town for his behaviour towards me, keeping a latent scumread on me for something GreyICE which doesn't seem scummy, just a mistake. He complained that I just ignored it but never tried to bring it up with me. Never questioned me about anything that I can remember despite me being one of his few scumreads.

You've wrangled the town towards some meaningful action which gets you out of null into town for now.
TTH claimed.
Boons claimed.
We're left with Doogal, massive, rufflig, Anatole.

[Jagged Appliance]

Argh. Please don't do that.

[Jagged Appliance]

Town:

Wake - town
Green Crayons - town
BBT - town
FakeGod - town
TTH - town
Boon - town

Csareo - nulltown

Rufflig - null
massive - null
Flubber - null

Doogal - nullscum
Anatole - nullscum


I'm not very confident of these.

[Jagged Appliance]

Wake, she is super town. I cannot imagine scum claiming vengeful townie, it makes no sense to me.

I had you as town before as well. The order is not important.

[Jagged Appliance]

Does the order have any bearing whatsoever?

The order is not important.

Ask yourself why she's still alive and it's less than 24 hours from deadline? Do you not think there's subterfuge going on here?

No, I don't.

[Jagged Appliance]

I fail to see the relevance of the strength of my townreads. I don't think there's subterfuge behind TTH's actions, no. In the thread there's a lot of drivel though and probably some subterfuge buried down deep. Boons' is the claim I'm most worried about by far, not either BBT's or TTH's.

[Jagged Appliance]

How many votes is that?

[Jagged Appliance]

I fail to see the relevance of the strength of my townreads. I don't think there's subterfuge behind TTH's actions, no. In the thread there's a lot of drivel though and probably some subterfuge buried down deep. Boons' is the claim I'm most worried about by far, not either BBT's or TTH's.

I see the relevance in questioning your thought processes.

Why are you persuing this line of questioning?

[Jagged Appliance]

I fail to see the relevance of the strength of my townreads. I don't think there's subterfuge behind TTH's actions, no. In the thread there's a lot of drivel though and probably some subterfuge buried down deep. Boons' is the claim I'm most worried about by far, not either BBT's or TTH's.

I see the relevance in questioning your thought processes.

Why are you persuing this line of questioning?

Why are you recoiling from it that way?

TTH, nail this appliance.

Deliver me from this thread.

Were you just looking for reason to say that? Vote me if you haven't already.

[Jagged Appliance]

I'm going to bed soon. Is there intent to vote from anyone? Should I claim now anyway? This looks like the real deal.

[Jagged Appliance]

VT

[Jagged Appliance]

@Mod, deadline should say Tuesday rather than Sunday.

[Jagged Appliance]

What FakeGod said.

[Jagged Appliance]

Wake, you shouldn't be trying to out the other mason. This is exactly the kind of anti-town play we were talking about.

@Titus, Who would be easier to read with my lynch?

[Jagged Appliance]

@Wake,

This was the question:

Are there or are there not players in the game that would make sense as BBT's mason partner?

That's a yes or no answer.

You gave a name and then directly asked that person to confirm.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Jagged, getting both you and HHT flips creates interesting scenarios

1) Both scum (HHT is trapped and must shoot his buddy), town was arguing over which scum to lynch.
2) HHT scum and JA town, votes can be analyzed in light of the flip. Who bussed who did not and why? Why were there so many counterwagons to HHT scum?
3) JA scum and HHT town, votes again can be analyzed in light of the flip. Who bussed? Who did not? Why? Why was HHT a persistent wagon as town?
4) Both are town, then we find out scum were pushing both lynches and proceed accordingly.

VCA is a big part of my game so I tend to do things like vote just to make wagons even.

You want a multilynch for info and you don't seem to have a very strong idea of what info you will gain judging by this post. You didn't even mention any names.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Wake,

This was the question:

Are there or are there not players in the game that would make sense as BBT's mason partner?

That's a yes or no answer.

You gave a name and then directly asked that person to confirm.

Well, yeah. I'm not going to lie. Members of Town don't lie or withhold information. Lynch all Liars.

What do you mean you're not going to lie? Who asked you to lie? The question was yes or no but instead you went hunting for another town PR. That's anti-town.

[Jagged Appliance]

She asked me a question, so I answered it honestly. Knowing an answer of who I thought might be what but withholding that would be lying by omission.

That's ridiculous. I find it hilarious that you're upset about me answering a question hoenstly, yet you have no problem with the person asking me that very question.

The question was yes or no. You answered a question that wasn't asked with an answer that does nothing to help town, only potentially helps scum. Witholding who you think is a PR is Pro-Town. Outing PRs is Anti-Town.

I didn't mention names because I'm not doing 3 irrelevant analyses to get the names you seek. There would be shit ton of information gathered here. Why does this bother you so much if you're a VT?

I'm bothered by a multi-lynch.

[Jagged Appliance]

VOTE: Anatole

[Jagged Appliance]

@Mod, Green Crayons is voting Anatole as of post 2354.

[Jagged Appliance]

If my flip will help you all so much then could someone please hammer.

[Jagged Appliance]

Anatole wagon appears, now I'm getting pushed through rather quickly. Awaiting Anatole's hammer.

[Jagged Appliance]

Please elaborate on why I'm not townie. That's for everyone, if only to help my play in future games.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Doogal, I replaced in, refused to push through either of the two static wagons and I'm opportunistic scum?

Surely you can understand why someone would have trouble reading this ridiculous game? I have seen almost no scumhunting or pushing from you either.

[Jagged Appliance]

Is this where I say LAL?

[Jagged Appliance]

Is this where I say LAL?

If you want to be as awful as the person you replaced, sure.

Just a joke AK, I think this game needs a few more of them.

[Jagged Appliance]

Is no one willing to drop the hammer?

[Jagged Appliance]

lol

AK, yes I was acting in the interests of self-preservation. I still meant what I posted though. With TTH, I had my vote on her but didn't want to lynch her until there was some concensus about who would be shot or even if it was a good idea to use her shot.

[Jagged Appliance]

How many more people are going to townread me before I'm lynched?

[Jagged Appliance]

People townreading JA - JA, GC, AK, Wake, BBT(?)

massive or TTH is gonna have to make a decision.