Mini 443 - Tapioca Mafia - Game over!!

[Aimee]

vote: Shanba

Because he beat me in a scum-chat game!

And Coppelia, can't we just miss out that accent? Or do you prefer 'Bob' (or even 'Bobness')

[Aimee]

4 votes on Khelvaster now. I must admit though, I think players that stir the pot, and bandwagon shamelessly are good for the town, whether pro-town or not. It's a source of info both on the players that get bandwagoned, and the players doing the bandwagoning, especially useful on day 1. And the town needs to get pro-active or else we'll just run out of time and the mafia will win.

So I'd much rather leave the talkative provocative players to do their thing and start bandwagoning the lurkers, of which we have a few still. Aimee has said little, as has d8p, Earwig .

Sorry, I am here, but at the moment I have finals until Friday. Expect a long post on Friday or Saturday. However, from what I see, Khelvaster is the most scummy so far, mainly due to his hypocracy and inconsistencies.

[Aimee]

Hey everyone. Sorry I haven't made a big post, but I will do tomorrow after my last final. I promise that! I don't need replaced, and I apologise for not posting, but finals are almost done and then I will contribute more.

[Aimee]

unvote Shanba

Reread already commenced!

I am now able to participate fully, and I am really sorry for the inconvenience.

[Aimee]

I promise I'm actually re-reading... but another maybe 8 hours until a post. Currently up to page 5.

[Aimee]

My long awaited analysis is here!

A Tapioca Mafia Timeline

Random voting starts. Everyone random votes. Halfway down page 2, a vote count reveals that shayforce leads the random voting, but is still at lynch -4. Nothing serious. That is, until Khelvaster suddenly chimes in asking if the bandwagon shifted from shadyforce to pickemgenius. Em, no. There hadn’t even been a bandwagon, really. Pickemgenuis seems to notice this and places the first “real” vote, against Khelvaster. But Khelvaster says he was just basically wondering what was happening. Everything was simply random, Khelvaster. That’s all.

Shadyforce starts an apparent lurker hunt by going after Ripley, who had yet to post other than random voting. Shady said that the scum could be hiding. Shanba jumps onto the bandwagon and so does MightyFireBall, although he says that bandwagons are something to look out for. Um, then why did you join one then? Shanba asks exactly the same question, and then votes for MightyFireBall. Shanba, don’t you think that was maybe a bit extreme? A FoS, maybe, but a vote is a bit much.

Ripley comes on and says he just skimmed the first few pages, waiting for the game to properly start. He then says he is happy with his vote on Khelvaster, saying he seems a bit interested in bandwagons.

Beanbagboy points out that Shanba seems to just be jumping on the bandwagon “for the sake of wagon jumping”, and promptly votes for him for it, something which Shanba doesn’t really deny. Shanba’s lack of defence is noted by beanbagboy, as well as me. Kabenon007 also says Shanba seems asking permission on whether he should be going on the bandwagon or not. Later, it is established that in fact Kabenon007 was referring to Khelvaster.

MightyFireBall disagrees with what Shanba said about him earlier. He says that in fact, Shanba is being a hypocrite for being suspicious of MightyFireBall for being suspicious of a bandwagon, whilst Shanba said he enjoys them. Em, that’s not hypocritical. Shanba never said he was suspicious of bandwagons. In fact, if anything, it just emphasises the point he likes them. Not sure about MightyFireBall’s post here.

Coppélia then jumps forward with some real hypocrisy. Earlier Khelvaster said he was against bandwagons, yet recently he said they were the only way for the game to move forward. For this inconsistency, Coppélia places her vote against Khelvaster, and MightyFireBall adds to this by putting a FoS on him.

Beanbagboy remains suspicious of Shanba who “seems itchy for a wagon” (I hope you meant ‘itching’), but then becomes unsure and says bandwagonning is natural. Why the vote on Shanba then? If you are undecided, why leave on your vote?

Shanba later emphasises the earlier problem about MightyFireBall’s hypocrisy comment, by explaining exactly what I thought. Although he also says the case for Khelvaster is stronger so votes for him.

Shadyforce also says that bandwagonning can be beneficial for the town, and instead the bandwagon should be on a less active player. Myself, Earwig and d8P are named as candidates. Kabenon700 also wants the lurkers to post more before the case against Khelvaster continues.

Earwig, meanwhile says he is not intentionally lurking but doesn’t give a reason for his lack of posting. He then just jumps on the Khelvaster wagon saying “I am sort of just going along with the Khelvaster thing...”, which I see as overtly scummy. He puts a FoS on him, but it just seems like a way of fitting in with the majority. No reason is given, and I see this firmly as the most scummy thing at that point.

d8P then comes on and says he doesn’t find Khelvaster inconsistent. He says that when Khelvaster was posting about bandwagons, he was indicating a trend rather than a desire to be on a bandwagon. He also basically says Khelvaster isn’t as scummy as he seems, yet still puts on a FoS. Personally, I’m not feeling it.

Ripley says he interpreted it as “almost asking for permission to join the latest big thing.” Ripley also notes that basically everyone in the game with the exception of beanbagboy and shadyforce have mentioned negatively his actions, by vote, FoS or otherwise.

Beanbagboy then says he finds Khelvaster’s actions more newbish than scummy, and actually finds the people who targetted him more suspicious, which I agree with. He says that people are “overreacting”, and targets Coppélia as one of the people who jumped on the bandwagon without major reasoning. But who else would you accuse of that, and why didn’t you give them FoSes, maybe? Why Coppélia in particular? And I believe that Coppélia did bring up a major inconsistency of Khelvaster. Other people would have been better targets.

Khelvaster comes on, but instead of defending himself, he merely decides to say he is unsure who to vote for. I’m very disappointed – I would expect a defence, but the fact there wasn’t one suggests... something. Meanwhile, his lack of a vote also shows indecisiveness, and also the fact he seems pretty unwilling to join in discussion. You understand, Khelvaster, that discussion is more important than voting (although voting is still crucial)?

Shadyforce then votes for pickemgenius saying he is “getting scummy vibes... but I can’t quite put my finger on it.” To me, this sounds like a gut suspicion, although there is nothing wrong with that. But he says pickem hasn’t posted much in the way of analysis or thoughts, and has been more slyly voting. I have to say I agree with this, and pickem in the next post doesn’t really defend himself, but tries to shift suspicion towards Khelvaster.

Coppélia disagrees with BBB, and argues that she in fact did contribute to the wagon, but pointing out his inconsitency. As Coppélia argues “Inconsistency is the main reason I’m voting for Khelvaster...” I have to say I agree with Coppélia here.

MightyFireBall, who hasn’t done much, says he is willing to remove his vote from Khelvaster if he explains himself, which sounds pretty reasonable to me. And Ripley announces that after Khelvaster didn’t explain himself, he has turned against him, so to speak. I agree with Ripley here too.

Beanbagbob says that Coppélia is over-reacting to his pressure vote. I strongly disagree here. Coppélia was merely defending herself, and genuinely seemed suspicious of Khelvaster. I feel that BBB was taking the “third bandwagon vote” too seriously here.

Khelvaster then says he can only come on at certain times (definitely justified). He then says he was pointing out bandwagons, but won’t do it anymore, and also says that he is an “easy target” and brands the person who attacked him first to be scum. That is pickemgenius. Er, why the first person? Why not people who jumped on after? His next post accuses pickmegenius, Earwig or MightyFireBall. I don’t understand whi FireBall was picked. Also the reasoning for pickem sucks. He was actually the first on the bandwagon, yet he accuses him of following Ripley. ‘Cept Ripley voted for you as a random vote, so technically pickem did really start the bandwagon properly, which pickem says in his next vote. Khelvaster also accused pickem of vote hopping, something I hadn’t considered up to that point.

d8P considers Khelvater’s actions as newbish, and switches his suspicion to MightyFireBall, who he says has produced the least content, a point that is hard to argue with.

Ripley also points out that pickem pointed out Khelvaster’s actions on the next post, wheread Ripley’s initial vote was random. I have to say, I agree with this.

Khelvaster’s case becomes blurry here. He says that it was pickem’s initial plan to target Khelvaster because he was an easy target. Yes, pickemgenius just decided pre-game that he would target someone who could maybe be an easy-target, despite the fact that no one had posted yet, and decided he would start a bandgwaon on this ‘easy target’ based on a hypothetical random vote that may or may not be made. Yup, logical. Khelvaster also says the pickem could have bounced lots of votes against people in the random voting stage, so he could just go back to them if he wanted to. Except that vote hopping is a common mafia tactic, and can easily be identified. Khelvaster’s mistakes seem to be newbie orientated.

Indeed, MightyFireBall agrees with what I said, and pickemgenius argues that Khelvaster’s point is WIFOM, a point that is hard to argue with. He also says he was voting to “evoke a response”, which he says (and I agree) definitely occurred. He also disagrees with the whole random vote idea, which I agree with.

A bit inconsistent, beanbagboy mentioned a few posts previously he found Khelvaster to be “sincere”. Then, he says “weird”. He thinks that Khelvaster is scum trying to cover up his mistakes. “...the more he talks the more it seems like he slips up.” Why the sudden change of opinion?

Kabenon007 says that Khelvaster has waited for a while before saying he was a complete newbie to forum mafia, and says that Khelvaster is getting defensive, something beanbagboy agrees with.

Khelvaster doesn’t know what WIFOM is, but then it is explained. Meanwhile, Kabenon007 says that because Khelvaster didn’t mention his lack of experience, it could just be a tale. I have to say, I agree with this. I am very impressed with Kabenon007’s analysis.

Coppélia responds to beanbagboy’s points by pointing out that three votes is often scummy in a newbie game, but in a large game three votes is no-where near a lynch. I have to agree. Putting the third vote on doesn’t really have much of an impact in this game. She also argues that Khelvaster is being too defensive. She makes a good point – other than pickem, he hasn’t really explained what he thinks of people. He sounds at times confident and at times rushes to explain his newb status, making Coppélia unsure about him. I agree with this.

d8P then says he doesn’t contribute much unless he has something valuable to say. Whilst I agree to an extent with this, I think the line between ‘valuable’ and ‘invaluable’ is difficult to draw. He also accuses MightyFireBall as being the person who has contributed least and just agreed with others. I would agree, but Earwig has posted much less and been less helpful. MightyFireBall points back to a post where he analysed Khelvaster, and whilst this is true it isn’t an elaborate or particularly analytical post. Coppélia then agrees with me, and aks d8P how he would define valuable.

Beanbagboy then states that he didn’t find the way that Coppélia placed the third vote scummy, just the way she jumped on the popular bandwagon for no reason. I disagree – she pointed out something she found suspicious about him, and wasn’t just following the crowd like Earwig. BBB also agrees with Coppélia about Khelvaster, who brings up things that “don’t make sense” in his position. BBB then disagrees with d8P and says that anything that anyone says is valuable on day 1. This does make sense I have to say, but some posts weren’t exactly valuable, eg. BBB’s Garth Brooks in Ipod (although I agree, bad choice. Why was that even ON your Ipod?) Calling d8P hypocritical, he dismisses his reasoning. And then votes for him. Personally, I don’t see the case, and MightyFireBall hasn’t exactly contributed that much.

Coppélia immediately points out she does have a reason for voting for Khelvaster. I agree. It is pretty obvious, and I am not 100% sure of beanbagboy’s point here anymore. She also justifies her previous post about d8P.

Talking of d8P, MightyFireBall immediately comes on and votes for him. When I saw this, I immediately thought OMGUS, but I will of course read the post. I disagree with MightyFireBall here. It isn’t about just randomly posting. It is about posting with content that matters most. Players in my eyes should be valued not due to how many posts they have but how many content filled posts they have. Even Khelvaster agrees in the next post, by saying that “making posts just for the sake of making posts is scummy.”

MightyFireBall makes a case against d8P being a hypocrite. Maybe it is just me, but I don’t particularly get the case, in question. He can still be pressuring you and expressing suspicion without a vote, you know? Although, checking back, I don’t see voting, just pressuring. I don’t see the hypocrisy.

Beanbagboy states Coppélia voted for little reason. Dude! She had a great big fat inconsistency! What else do you need?

Meanwhile, d8P says that on day 1 he expects there to be suspicion and analysis, basically. He says that not all posts are useful (eg. Ipod post). d8P emphasises that he is not advocating silence. I also agree with d8P about MightyFireBall. He most definitely said that he found that MightyFireBall wasn’t contributing any of his own material.

Also incidentally, maybe this is through lack of sleep, but when did MightyFireBall start the wagon? If he did, I apologise. Even if he did, just starting a bandwagon doesn’t always match with producing content. You can start bandwagon’s but not produce any content, in the form of discussion. In terms of voting, yes. In terms of discussion, no. Finally, d8P says he is still voting for MightyFireBall, because he is considered scum hiding under the radar. Whilst I agree, Earwig is the more obvious example.

Shadyforce finally comes on and says he will analyse later., but then says we should, in doubt, lynch the quietest or most suspicious player. Um, why the quietest? Just because they are quiet doesn’t mean they are scum. Coppélia agrees with this, saying that in fact lynching the quietest player may not be the best plan, to which Shadyforce explains as meaning the player who contributes least, and labels Earwig. I agree, Earwig is suspicious, but also quiet. A combination of the both is the problem.

Kabenon007 says it is important not only to have random bandwagons, but people shouldn’t be switching from bandwagon to bandwagon continually.

A vote count reveals that Khelvaster is way out in front. All of the four on it justified their votes, except Shanba. Maybe seeing he could be targetted, he almost immediately unvotes and FoSes d8P, saying he would be fine with lynching either of them. Um, why?

Ripley then emphasises my suspicion on Earwig exactly – he is just following a bandwagon without a clue why he is doing it. Shadyforce (who doesn’t analyse), votes Earwig for agreeing with Ripley (although he had suggested Earwig was suspicious). The awaited analysis isn’t on the way yet.

Khelvaster, as though not even reading Ripley’s post, suddenly asks why the target has now moved to Earwig. Um, if you actually read Ripley’s post, it would be pretty obvious. And also, garnering two votes really implicate that people are shifting in large numbers. Ripley notices this, saying quite rightly “Overestimating bandwagons seems to be a persistent habit of yours.”

BBB then says d8P isn’t looking like a townie (but not explaining why), and that Khelvaster defending him is scummy. And what about all of d8P’s allegations against you... did you forget? A mod prod is also asked of Earwig, which is thoroughly deserved.

Coppélia disagrees with the fact that anyone “contributed least to the town”. Whilst that seems admirable, don’t you agree it is pretty obvious that people like me and Earwig have done nothing? But BBB seems to agree with Bob, and FoSes Shady. Ripley points out that Earwig has been actively posting elsewhere, which definitely screams “strategic lurking” to me.

Khelvaster then says it is better to lynch scummy people than silent people. MightyFireBall and d8P are named as scummy. Then, Khelvaster FoSes MightyFireBall for being silent. Um, a bit of an inconsistency, no? BBB doesn’t agree about MFB, but no reason is given, and pickem also emphasises that he now accuses d8P, yet defended him earlier. The inconsistencies are just growing.

MFB then suspiciously turns up and says he has nothing to add. Um, lots has happened. To kind of emphasise the suspicion against him, he just jumps on the Earwig bandwagon, giving an FoS. Don’t you have, like, your own opinions? Kabenon007 also says this.

As expected, Khelvaster makes yet another inconsistency. He says that d8P and MFB were 2 players he thought were scummy, but says he wasn’t implying they are scum. So what are they then? He says he doesn’t actually suspect d8P much (another inconsistency) but finds MFB very suspicious. However, he points out a contradiction from MFB, which is quite justified, and puts an FoS on him for it.

MFB defends by saying that he finds posting non content scummy, but says not posting is actually better (he said it the other way round, I am just a bit confused... it is late, leave me alone.) MFB says that he did have suspicion against Earwig, which he believes hadn’t been voiced in previous posts. Wrong. Ripley and beanbagboy both commented clearly before you.

Khelvaster makes another post, but to be perfectly honest, I haven’t a clue what was going on here. It was suspicion against MFB, that’s all I know. This is my fault though, not yours Khelvaster. Sorry. Kabenon007 points out MFB’s inconsistency too. Khelvaster then actually explains his reasoning well. I am impressed.

Amusingly, Khelvaster says that making lots of confusing posts is scummy. Um, that makes you scummy, then, in my eyes, Khelvaster, seeing as I don’t have a clue what you are saying half the time! Sorry, actually that is a lie. I feel that your case against MFB is pretty justified.

[Aimee]

Okay, finished! Overall, player by player!

I disagree quite a lot with what

beanbagboy

argues, especially concerning d8P (he still hasn’t responded to) and Coppélia.

Coppélia

I find to be pro-town and I agree with lots of her analysis.

d8P

I am getting mixed vibes from. He seems quiet at some quite convenient times, yet he makes quite solid points. Unsure at the moment.

Earwig

is easily the scummiest person so far, due to the way he just jumped on the bandwagon without adding any new analysis.

I actually find

Kabenon007

the most pro-town player so far. I am very impressed with his analysis.

Khelvaster’s

posts are riddled with confusion and inconsistency. Nonetheless, he seems quite passionate, and does have a good case against MFB... I think...

Despite his claims, I think that

MightyFireBall

hasn’t posted anything new of his own thoughts. Some analysis would be greatly appreciated.

pickemgenius

has faded into the background recently, and thus I currently don’t have a clear opinion about him.

I see

Ripley

as firmly pro-town. He makes a good case against Earwig which I totally agree with.

Shadyforce

seems to want the end to lurkers. I don’t really agree with this strategy, and scummy people should be our target.

Shanba

has jumped on lots of the bandwagons, and has now disappeared. I want to know his thoughts about the Earwig case, and about the Khelvaster argument.


As a result of this:

unvote

Vote: Earwig

FoS: Khelvaster, MightyFireBall and beanbagboy

Note: BBB is being FoSed because I strongly disagree with his reasoning against Bob, and the fact he hasn't replied to d8P's allegations.[/b]

[Aimee]

eek. That was 6 and a half pages on word. Good luck reading that!

[Aimee]

Firstly, I am glad my analysis has gone down so well. Just don't expect that again, at least for a while!

For one thing, I didn't actually unvote. My vote is still on Khel. Also, I'm quite clearly bandwagoning onn Khelvaster again, though this time I feel the bandwagon is justified as others have pointed out. I had nothing more to add, so I left it at that.

Errr.... yeah. Sorry. I was a bit confused/stressed at that point. I got a bit cranky at the end and wasn't paying attention to details. My apologies.

I don't know about Earwig yet. Honestly, don't think that lurking in and of itself is scummy: some types of lurking are scummy and some aren't necessarily. I'm trying to worl out what class of lurking earwig's lurking belongs to.

I am not voting against him because he is lurking. I am voting against him because he is mindlessly going into a bandwagon without actually contributing to a bandwagon. Following a bandwagon without reasoning I find to be incredibly scummy.

I was attempting to express my disagreement with this belief by pointing out that a townie lurker does indeed have value simply by being town. In other words, I won't be voting for you or Earwig because of lurking. If I ever vote for either of you, it will be because I found your actions suspicious.

I agree with this, and the reason I am voting Earwig is due to his actions, not his lurking. At the same time, you suggest "a townie lurker" has a value. Yet, how do we know that all lurkers are townies? You of course understand that a lurker could be strategically lurking as scum?

Kabenon007: "Whilst" has actually become one of my favourite words, along with "ergo" and "um", especially after that post! But I agree that BBB is a knowledgeable player. I just frankly disagreed with his reasons.

Ok, for your PBPA, it was amazing, but some of the things you say about me confuse me, like my "hypocracy" re: Khel. Can you post quotes/links to things you disagree with me on so I can clarify when necessary?

Sure. It isn't exactly a major thing. But posts 101 and 104 offer wildly differing opinions, which happened in the space of 23 minutes.

I think Khel is being sincere, and I didn't really see much of a case against him.

Khel is being weird now. I'm looking at the quotes... they could be a newbie mistake, but I think it more likely that he's scum trying to cover up. The more he talks, the more he stumbles: all that WIFOM stuff. I will unvote: Bob for now, and rethink this. Khel... I don't know, the more he talks the more it seems like he slips up.

I want to hear more from him.

Quite a change of opinion, I think.

Also, I think d8P defended himself a few pages back, but you didn't reply to this. Did you reply, or am I just being silly? I agree you seem to be on the fence for Khelvaster. He needs to say more.

And, having Garth Brooks and Enya on your Ipod is quite shameful. If I were you, I would have kept that one quiet.

Khelvaster, emm... I really don't know why you would use WIFOM to justify things like this. Er, can't you just analyse posts and stuff? That's what I do, anyway. What you did with MFB was good (albeit confusing), but the manner you did it in was, I believe, more successful than other attempts.

[Aimee]

hey, everybody, announcement: I finally graduated today! I am free of school! MWHH!!!!! At least until college starts up...

And then I have a question for anyone to answer: I've never played with a vigilante before, is it wise to leave them alone so they can vigilante scum, or wise to lynch them so they don't get trigger-happy?

It is in my opinion right now that Earwig is lurking. If he had time to read that we were getting impatient with his not posting, one would think that he would have had time to come up with at least something to say. Also, I have seen him around the forum at other times, not posting here while posting at others. And yet, despite the fact that Ripley especially has brought up these cases against him, he refuses to comment. I wonder if he maybe forgot about this game or is trying a different playing strategy... but I feel he is lurking. My vote against Khelvaster is also being reconsidered at the moment. It might be better served on Earwig, but I am not prepared to unvote yet.

Yay, congrats for graduating. I "graduated" last week too (although technically we don't actually have a sort of graduation ceremony - we just leave).

Also, I think that if there was a vigilante in the game, he shouldn't be lynched at all. One must remember that a vigilante is on the town's side, and therefore, even with killing power, is an extra person for the town. After all, if someone claimed a town role, and was confirmable, you wouldn't lynch them, because they are the town. No difference to a vig.

And also, Earwig may be lurking. That is true. He isn't suspicious for that, in my opinion, but he is for his actions. Do you find his actions suspicious?

[Aimee]

I disagree with the comments. As a town, we shouldn't be thinking about deadlines. We should be discussing, only really considering deadlines when discussion slows, and even then that is the mod's decision.

Also, I will be away on June 6, so that is a pretty bad deadline, from my perspective.

[Aimee]

Hey, Bob, you are 'Mafia Scum' now!

BBB, care to explain what holes are in my analysis?

d8P, I will come to your points later.

[Aimee]

Oh my goodness, lots has gone on! Of course, I will have to defend some things, and answer some things (rest assured, not all of d8P's posts). Re-read in progress.

[Aimee]

Mod:

Can we get a prod on Shanba?

[Aimee]

This is my last post. Don't cry for me... Argentina... I don't know the rest of the song, so... adios!

Kabenon! We'll miss you! If you are by any chance still here... where are you going?

[Aimee]

Hi Joe! You just replaced into a game I got nightkilled in (Mini 428: Sicilian).

[Aimee]

And then I have a question for anyone to answer: I've never played with a vigilante before, is it wise to leave them alone so they can vigilante scum, or wise to lynch them so they don't get trigger-happy?

This is in no way a "Let's lynch the Vig!", BM. You're really grasping for that here, because it looks like nothing more than the question of an inexperienced player to those who have played in a game where vigilantes helped or worsened the townies' game, and Aimee was just answering for him.

I really think you're grasping for someone besides Faldo to lay the attack onto, but you're not making good with it. Maybe you should spend this time coming up with a defense to protect yourself, rather than someone else to lash out at? =\

Psst... this is not Sicilian Mafia... we're a different game!

[Aimee]

I still find Earwig to be the most unhelpful player. Today, I will go back through d8P's analysis of my post, and pick out the points I disagree with. I would also like to hear more from Shady.

[Aimee]

Big fat bonjour, Patrick. It is a meaty read!

d8P, I will try and look through all your analysis again, see if there is anything I disagree with.

[Aimee]

I am not liking the -1 situation at all. Joe and Khel, why the votes?

[Aimee]

If I was voting Earwig, then

unvote

I am prepared to believe this claim for now. However:

1) How can we be sure he isn't another killing role, e.g. the Serial Killer
2) You understand that Earwig's role is difficult to confirm, I hope.

Also, MFB, if Earwig is scum, why on earth would the town have any effect on the scum nightkill? And also, why should we even be directing Earwig in the first place? For all we know there could be a Mafia Roleblocker/Doctor, who blocks Earwig or protects his target.

[Aimee]

Earwig has a foolproof way of saying he is vig, even if he doesn't vig anyone in the night. He can claim mafia has a roleblocker, and that guy is blocking him every turn.

Exactly. He could claim he is getting roleblocked all the time, showing why he didn't kill anyone. This could in fact be because he is a member of the mafia.

[Aimee]

Also, I will be on holiday from Monday through to Sunday. No access at all. Mod, you know I will be back. Replacement not needed.

[Aimee]

unvote

, if I was still voting.

[Aimee]

Whoa. When I read this a few days, I was absolutely gob-smacked. Obviously, Khelvaster was talking a load of crap - I am not his scum-buddy at all.

Feel free to ask me any questions.

And Earwig, what went wrong?

[Aimee]

Who did you kill?

[Aimee]

Yay, HungryJoe!

FoS: d8P

Do you have any sanity confirmation?

[Aimee]

d8P, I hope you understand you need to out your mason-buddy to have any chance of being believed.

[Aimee]

Well, personally I won't believe the claim otherwise. Although at the same time, I would be reluctant for the masons to come out.

[Aimee]

On day 2. I FoSed d8P instead of voting, because I was reluctant to join such a fast growing bandwagon that I wasn't sure about (you may not have even been a cop, and even if you were, your sanity was, and still is, unconfirmed.) So with such a lot of variables, I didn't vote, but only FoSed.

[Aimee]

Alright, I've read the game. There's stuff there I never even remember happening, which is probably a consequence of my uberlurk day 1. My suspicion list would go something like this:

Aimee
PickemGenius
Elailai(replacing Coppélia)
Rip
HJ

Exactly the same list as Pickem, except with each other in the the respective places.

Looking at this, I think it's likely that one of those three {Aimee, Coppélia, Ripley} is the scum ( I don't think we'll have more than three scum in a twelve player game).

Why? I made it very clear why I voted for Earwig. I was also one of the first on the bandwagon of Earwig (although behind Ripley), and therefore did not "jump on" at all.

I find it odd the way that she attacks Earwig for jumping on the bandwagon of player she felt was scummy.

I don't understand what this means.

Then, day 2, she seems reluctant to attack D8p, stating possible nsanity issues as a reason not to vote for him. This seems reaching to me: the best way to confirm a cop's sanity is through lynching.

True. Note that Day 2 lasted all of about 2 pages, and allowed the total quantity of basically no information to be gathered. I FoSed because I was uncomfortable voting for d8P at that stage. I was unsure of HJ's claim at that time. And as Ripley previously argued (and I share the same thoughts), the d8P wagon grew and acted too quickly. Some things could have occurred to help the town - HJ could have got more information, which would allow him to choose a good target for his investigation. It would have also allowed us to plant some control over the Earwig scenario - he had already proved erratic for his vig of BBB - so therefore he could potentially have been slightly reeled in, so to speak (obviously his choice of MFB was incredibly weak).

Having got a scum lynch day 1, we could afford to mislynch should there have been an issue with insanity (which as I explained is unlikey in a normal game).

Just because different sanities aren't common, doesn't mean they don't ever occur. How do you know there isn't a second cop in the game who could have been sane (although, granted, that is highly unlikely now HJ's sanity is confirmed).

Also, she seems to actively look for reasons to keep his partner hidden.

Because he claimed Mason. I was, and am, very uncomfortable with Masons claiming (even though he evidently wasn't a Mason).

I would also note (though this is a weak point) that D8p referred to his partner as a "her".

1. If this was actually a point, it would refer to Coppelia just as much.
2. It could easily be a way for d8P to throw suspicion around, to try and get suspicion onto me (remembering when Khel said you and I were his scum-buddies, this could easily be a similar tell).
3. That is obviously stretching.


I need a re-read. At the moment, I could potentially see everyone with the exception of HJ as scum. I find Ripley impossible to read (he always looks town), but don't really see him as scum at the moment. It is much more likely to be Shanba/pickem. I find it very interesting to note that after Ripley and HJ made some accusations against me (naming me as their top suspect), they both suddenly label me their top suspect.

Overall, I found Shanba's case to be weak and stretching. And I don't understand pickem's post because of the formatting issues. I will re-read, but at the moment, I don't see anything I have to defend myself against.

[Aimee]

Well, I believe this is sufficient for me. Now, note this, folks: the other two were goons, so I think you guys are right, that the last is a godfather, and thus my investigations may not matter at all from this point forward. However, I will still announce them. Last night's investigation found

elailai innocent.

I thought that because of d8p's last lines, Aimee might've been vig'd but it seems this was not the case. Thus, I investigated someone I would have liked to confirm as an innocent, but who was slightly suspicious. Anywho, I still think that Aimee is the only one here who has kept lackluster 'suspicion' connection with d8p and Khel, while refusing to vote for them, and even helping cases move away from them.

In fact, I have very little doubts that a:

Vote: Aimee

is in order here. =b

I am going to do a re-read, but please explain where I actually have connections to Khel or d8P. Also, I can't think of anywhere that I "even helped cases move away from them", although this is off the top of my head. If you have evidence here then present it.

I would also like Ripley and Elailai's thoughts on all this. Personally, I find it suspect that Shanba and Pickem both put suspicion on me, after Ripley and Joe do. I am pretty confident that one scum (whether that is the last one, or if there are any more) is attacking me here.

[Aimee]

Case on Shanba

What this game needs right now is a good bandwagon.

Unvote, Vote: Ripley

Yes, I like sounding like I know what I'm doing.

I don't really see why this occurred on post 54. Ripley was already being pressured, and so Shanba's vote basically did nothing. It just seemed to me like a way of joining an early bandwagon. Very convenient.

This is followed by a vote on MightyFireBall only 3 posts later. Shanba moves his vote around during the early stages, and is in fact probably the biggest vote hopper up to that point. This leads BBB to point out in post 74 "Shanba seems itchy for a bandwagon," a point that is hard to argue with. And as I said in my later analysis:

Beanbagboy points out that Shanba seems to just be jumping on the bandwagon “for the sake of wagon jumping”, and promptly votes for him for it, something which Shanba doesn’t really deny.

That said, the counter argument is pretty obvious. His later vote towards MFB was his first 'real' vote of the game, and it could be said he was just moving his random vote earlier. And I actually agree with what he says about MFB. I twasn't really a bandwagon push, in the same way as his Ripley vote was. I would understand the counter argument, if he didn't move his vote around anymore.

This doesn't happen. Post 75, another vote change. This time towards Khelvaster. You say "the case against Khelvaster is stronger", yet no elaboration is given. I find this suspicious - after previously ignoring the bandwagon on Khelvaster, you jump on, giving no reasons for doing so. It is very convenient.

Later beanbagboy criticises those who wagon against Khelvaster, although points it towards Coppelia rather than Shanba. I think Coppelia had reason to be on the bandwagon - Shanba had not. The below quote I believe can be more readily applied to Shanba.

Bob seems to jump on the Khelvaster is scum wagon without really leading the argument, so if this wagon is wrong, she can withdraw later, but if it's a useful wagon, she can go "Oh, see? I was right/innocent" which is a common scum tactic.

Despite this pretty obvious attempt to jump on the bandwagon, Shanba remains unnoticed at this time. And just to make things even more apparent, or less apparent so to speak, Shanba lurks for three days without explanation. It is very much like he is just hiding at the beginning.

hmm. I think Mighty Fireball and Beanbagboy came out of the argument looking better than D8P, but regardless, I think the case on Khelvaster is currently stronger. However,

FoS: D8P

. Note that Khelvaster is now defending D8P. I'd honestly be happy with lynching either one of them at this point.

He makes the point about Khel, saying "the case on Khelvaster is currently stronger", but doesn't actually say anything about the case on Khelvaster. It's just another example of him trying to fit in without actually saying much. Note that d8P and Khelvaster were both the top two vote getters at that point, so it seems pretty apparent at this time that Shanba isn't actually saying much.

So by this point, the small scum-tells are mounting up. He begins by bandwagonning for no real reason. He vote hops a few times in the opening pages (but after the random voting pages). He agrees with the case on Khelvaster, and votes for him, but doesn't actually say anything about the case on Khelvaster, not bringing any new points to the table. After lurking for a while, he comes back and attacks Khel and d8P, the people with the most votes at the time, and again basically adds nothing. So in the early stages, some subtle scum tells can be noticed. He is obviously trying to hide into the background, yet come out occasionally to jump on a bandwagon or two.

After my analysis, Shanba pops in with a comment (with the below extract a quote from it):

Also, I'm quite clearly bandwagoning onn Khelvaster again, though this time I feel the bandwagon is justified as others have pointed out. I had nothing more to add, so I left it at that.
D8p is also scummy for reasons others have pointed out, plus I noted in that post a possible connection between D8p and Khelvaster as evidenced by Khelvaster's sudden defence of D8p. It's weak at this point though but I wanted it noted.

Anyway. I admit I've been wagony this game. I like random wagons day 1, as they provide information and get the day started much more effectively than random votes.

I feel this is a really scummy post. He openly admits to bandwagoning, a notable scum-tell, and says he basically just agreed with others, yet couldn't give any reasons himself. Same with d8P. His next reasoning was that Khel was defending him, but that basically amounts to nothing since at that time there was no real indication that they were scum-buddies (something it was obviously too early to say at that point). They could easily have been townies defending each other, and in addition, it was far too early to be attempting to get scum partnerships at that stage. So basically, he openly admits he has almost no reasoning for his vote, and the only reasoning he gives is flawed.

Post 214 he again notices the connection between d8P and Khel as Khelvaster tries to distance himself. It is a good post. However, I get the feeling that he is, in a way, trying to get reasons for his vote after having voted, if that made sense. That said, I am somewhat dismayed (in terms of my case) at Shanba's ability to find the partnership between d8P and Khelvaster - I doubt that if he was the godfather, he would completely condemn both so openly.

After this promising post, it goes back to lurk-mode. People begin to notice now.

Also, Shanba has been lurking in plain sight, IMO. He hasn't posted in two pages, and his last post, while long, was all quote except for one line by him. I don't think he contributed much of value through the first six pages.

So:

Vote: Khelvaster, FoS: Shanba

mostly so Shanba will post more original stuff.

In fact, he even needs a prod because he doesn't post in pages. He finally posts content almost 100 posts later, where he, once again, attempts to justify his vote on Khelvaster. However, it doesn't really do much for me he basically gives weak reasons ("he is constantly asking for confirmation from the town" is a good reason along with others, but a bit stretched if it is the main reasons given.) He also points to the way Khel didn't know who to vote for in one post. Even though Khel is scum, I don't really see these as good reasons. It emphasises what I said earlier - Shanba seems to be searching for reasons after his vote for his vote on Khelvaster. And another post later (346) re-emphasises the way he finds d8P and Khelvaster to be a scum-pair. At least he is consistent. On post 353, he actually posts some quite good comments about Khelvaster, in particular.

After replacing in, Patrick sums up my thoughts on Shanba, partially, when he writes:

Shanba - Hmm. Definitely want to see more from him. His early observation on Mighty Fireball was fair enough, but after that I'm seeing alot of sheeping, and he's one of the more experienced players here. It's not really clear why he suspects d8P, as he was pretty vague on that. I see he posted a possible link between d8P and Khelvaster, but I'd still like to see his case against d8P specifically. I think he's going to post that later, so I'm happy to wait on that. There's not a whole load of data to judge him on right now, but I could certainly see him as a lazy scumbag.

After more lurking, the analysis on d8P doesn't come. Instead, he goes again after Khelvaster, rightfully, after Khel's attack of Earwig, despite his claim. And after yet more lurking, he posts after Khel's cop claim to say that we shouldn't be lynching a cop with no counter-claim. This was definitely a pro-town thing to do. I am, however, saddened to note that Shanba lurks yet again - posting only once more before the end of day 1 to point out that he has basically abandoned his analysis of d8P. He does, however, basically ignore the fact Khel claimed scum.

Day 2 dawns. After Joe claims his guilty verdict, Shanba (among others) jumps on d8P with a vote. He wisely unvotes after the Mason claim, but then puts it back on after using some more, quite solid, reasoning.

Then on day 3, Shanba comes out, basically with suspicion towards me. Having replied to it, I feel overall it is stretching and weak, looking at my case on Earwig as suspicious, when that points not only to me but to Ripley (moreso than myself), and Elailai (less so), amongst other things. He has, however, moved onto Elailai, and has said he will move onto Ripley.

---

Overall, before re-reading Shanba was high-up on my suspicion list. After re-reading, I actually consider him to be pro-town. Although he admitted to bandwagonning, that occurred very early in the game. The only issue for me is his lurking on day 1 - it seemed like he was staying out of the limelight. Luckily he has moved into the spot-light a lot more today, and is now contributing well.

The main reason I do not suspect Shanba is because of the following - why would Shanba basically spend all of day 1 attacking a d8P and Khelvaster partnership? Although it could be proven it was to show he was more town after their lynches, I am sure Shanba would agree completely that as scum, it would be very risky to argue tirelessly to lynch your two partners. As a result I am pretty sure that, to conclude, Shanba is pro-town for now, and would thus argue he is not the right lynch for today.[/b]

[Aimee]

Two things to note as reading:

1a) Because there are six alive, would it be feasible to no lynch today? That could lead to a better end-game scenario (where there is three rather than four.) We would gain more information by tomorrow (perhaps another cop investigation if HJ stays alive, or information on the nightkill target's role.) And seeing as HJ and others seem suspicious of me, I am perfectly happy to be the investigation target.

1b) If we went through with this, would it be a good idea to have a mass claim tomorrow?

2) I find the idea of four scum unlikely. Despite this, it is a possibility. The town did have a lot of power-roles. However, I see it more likely that there are three scum (or at least, one scum left).

3) After reading the whole thread, I am confused why people automatically assume that the final Mafia member is a Godfather. Yes, it is a possibility. It isn't set in stone, however. How do we know the final member of the Mafia isn't a roleblocker? I know this is unlikely - after all they would have to be pretty stupid not to block one of the two claimed power-roles on night 1 (who both functioned without being blocked). Perhaps also, it could be a way for the mod to trick us. Ultimately, I don't think it is right to assume the final Mafia member is the Godfather, although I accept it is a likely possibility.

4) I will be doing the same analysis that I did for Shanba to Pickemgenius. He was my other top suspect - the fact that a re-read has made a town Shanba more likely makes it more likely for me to believe pickem is a Mafia member. I have noticed on the re-read a more scummy edge to his posts.

5) Finally, my list of suspects.

1. Pickem. I should explore this more tonight, but on re-read I have noticed a more scummy edge to his posts.
2. Ripley. I always find Ripley to be pro-town. This means I cannot get a full read on him, and therefore am currently completely unsure of his alignment.
3. Elailai. Again no read, but I find it unlikely that a Mafia Godfather (or other Mafia member) would basically lurk through not only day two, but day three so far.
4. Shanba. After the re-reading, I am fairly sure he is town.
5. Hungry Joe. I think it is pretty obvious he is the cop at this point.

[Aimee]

Because there are six alive, would it be feasible to no lynch today? That could lead to a better end-game scenario (where there is three rather than four.) We would gain more information by tomorrow (perhaps another cop investigation if HJ stays alive, or information on the nightkill target's role.) And seeing as HJ and others seem suspicious of me, I am perfectly happy to be the investigation target.

I had thought about this as well, but I came to the conclusion that the chances of HJ remaining alive are tiny, and if he does so his results will not be useful. We'd be in just the same position tomorrow but with one fewer person contributing to the discussion. I suppose it's possible that we would gain from the 3-player ending, though the only real advantage would be if the scum killed someone who was under enough suspicion to have otherwise been lynched.

True. However, what are the main disadvantages of a no lynch at this stage? At the moment, I see almost none. The advantages are that there is a better endgame situation for the town, meaning that in the long-term we could be in a better situation.

If we went through with this, would it be a good idea to have a mass claim tomorrow?

I'd assumed the rest of us were probably just plain townies so a mass claim would be pointless. You actually go on to say "the town did have a lot of power-roles" - so do you really think there are more? (I thought a doc, a cop and a vig sounded about right, myself.)

If a mass claim was likely to help, should we actually be thinking of doing it now?

Absolutely correct, and something I hadn't even thought about until now.

After reading the whole thread, I am confused why people automatically assume that the final Mafia member is a Godfather. Yes, it is a possibility. It isn't set in stone, however. How do we know the final member of the Mafia isn't a roleblocker? I know this is unlikely - after all they would have to be pretty stupid not to block one of the two claimed power-roles on night 1 (who both functioned without being blocked).

You asked how we know there isn't a roleblocker, then answered your own question. It is wildly improbable that Earwig or HJ wouldn't have been blocked on Night 1. Even if the roleblocker wasn't able both to kill and to block, there was a goon alive to do the killing (d8p).

To the whole "answering your own question thing", I was writing the thread, as well as getting the answers at the same time. So yes, that's why it comes out sounding a bit weird.

Ultimately, I don't think it is right to assume the final Mafia member is the Godfather, although I accept it is a likely possibility.

What I am prepared to accept is that, whether or not the final Mafia member is the Godfather, we will not be getting any further guilty results from our cop. So really, it doesn't matter.[/quote]

This was the section that sounded horrible from my perspective.

According to you, it doesn't matter whether or not the final member of the Mafia is a Godfather, because HJ will get an innocent. THIS IS WRONG. If the final member of the Mafia is not a godfather, then a guilty result will occur. So really, it does matter.

Elailai. Again no read, but I find it unlikely that a Mafia Godfather (or other Mafia member) would basically lurk through not only day two, but day three so far.

Day 2 was extremely brief and elailai actually made several posts during it.

I found this from elailai in another thread:

From 16/6, I'll be incommunicado, as I'm going abroad. By 18/6 or 19/6 I should have access to internet again.

And he has indeed posted nowhere since Friday 15th.

I think that a replacement would be in order.

Personally, I was quite surprised by Ripley, here - I didn't get the "completely always pro-town" message that I usually get from him. In fact, I think I need another re-read to look at his posts, as well as Pickem's. Those are my two top suspects at the moment (although pickem is number 1).[/b]

[Aimee]

Because there are six alive, would it be feasible to no lynch today? That could lead to a better end-game scenario (where there is three rather than four.) We would gain more information by tomorrow (perhaps another cop investigation if HJ stays alive, or information on the nightkill target's role.) And seeing as HJ and others seem suspicious of me, I am perfectly happy to be the investigation target.

I had thought about this as well, but I came to the conclusion that the chances of HJ remaining alive are tiny, and if he does so his results will not be useful. We'd be in just the same position tomorrow but with one fewer person contributing to the discussion. I suppose it's possible that we would gain from the 3-player ending, though the only real advantage would be if the scum killed someone who was under enough suspicion to have otherwise been lynched.

True. However, what are the main disadvantages of a no lynch at this stage? At the moment, I see almost none. The advantages are that there is a better endgame situation for the town, meaning that in the long-term we could be in a better situation.

If we went through with this, would it be a good idea to have a mass claim tomorrow?

I'd assumed the rest of us were probably just plain townies so a mass claim would be pointless. You actually go on to say "the town did have a lot of power-roles" - so do you really think there are more? (I thought a doc, a cop and a vig sounded about right, myself.)

If a mass claim was likely to help, should we actually be thinking of doing it now?

Absolutely correct, and something I hadn't even thought about until now.

After reading the whole thread, I am confused why people automatically assume that the final Mafia member is a Godfather. Yes, it is a possibility. It isn't set in stone, however. How do we know the final member of the Mafia isn't a roleblocker? I know this is unlikely - after all they would have to be pretty stupid not to block one of the two claimed power-roles on night 1 (who both functioned without being blocked).

You asked how we know there isn't a roleblocker, then answered your own question. It is wildly improbable that Earwig or HJ wouldn't have been blocked on Night 1. Even if the roleblocker wasn't able both to kill and to block, there was a goon alive to do the killing (d8p).

To the whole "answering your own question thing", I was writing the thread, as well as getting the answers at the same time. So yes, that's why it comes out sounding a bit weird.

Ultimately, I don't think it is right to assume the final Mafia member is the Godfather, although I accept it is a likely possibility.

What I am prepared to accept is that, whether or not the final Mafia member is the Godfather, we will not be getting any further guilty results from our cop. So really, it doesn't matter.[/quote]

This was the section that sounded horrible from my perspective.

According to you, it doesn't matter whether or not the final member of the Mafia is a Godfather, because HJ will get an innocent. THIS IS WRONG. If the final member of the Mafia is not a godfather, then a guilty result will occur. So really, it does matter.

Elailai. Again no read, but I find it unlikely that a Mafia Godfather (or other Mafia member) would basically lurk through not only day two, but day three so far.

Day 2 was extremely brief and elailai actually made several posts during it.

I found this from elailai in another thread:

From 16/6, I'll be incommunicado, as I'm going abroad. By 18/6 or 19/6 I should have access to internet again.

And he has indeed posted nowhere since Friday 15th.

I think that a replacement would be in order.

Personally, I was quite surprised by Ripley, here - I didn't get the "completely always pro-town" message that I usually get from him. In fact, I think I need another re-read to look at his posts, as well as Pickem's. Those are my two top suspects at the moment (although pickem is number 1).[/b]

[Aimee]

Oopsie, quote tag error.

[Aimee]

I have to say, at the moment, I don't really know what to think. I notice that neither HJ nor Ripley have mentioned anything about my case on Shanba, and about how I have found him to be pro-town. I am also surprised that despite being the target of everyone's suspicions, I have yet to see a definitive and strong case against me (the cases by Shanba and Pickem were weak).

[Aimee]

Yes. I will be doing a case on Pickemgenius. Please give me a day or two to complete it, but it should be up on Monday or Tuesday.

[Aimee]

Bah, we're getting nowhere with this. I don't know what to do anymore to spice this game up, I really don't have that much mroe to say. Isn't there anyone out there who has some obscure knowledge or keen insight to add to one side or the other? =\

pickemgenius is away, Shanba has connection problems, elailai has not posted Day 3, has been prodded at least once and may be replaced. That only leaves 3 of us so it's not surprising nothing much is happening.

I had another look at pickem's posts yesterday. I didn't see anything much that hadn't been commented on before, but I'll summarise my thoughts anyway:

1. A few early random votes, then sticks to a vote on Khelvaster.
2. Says little or nothing about other players, and actually doesn't really say very much about Khelvaster, repeating many times that he voted him "to get out of the random voting stage".
3. A lot of exchanges with Khelvaster.
4. High percentage of his posts are brief and contain no useful content.
5. Opposed directing Earwig in his kill choice.
5. His two long posts today consisted entirely of quotes with unfamilar formatting. I found them almost unreadable. He provided some brief explanations of his suspicions in his own words when requested. Note: he has elailai at the botom of his list (apart from HJ), solely on the basis of HJ's innocent result on elailai (which may not be meaningful).

So, Ripley as a result of this, what are your thoughts now about Pickemgenius?

[Aimee]

EDIT: What are your conclusions?

[Aimee]

Hi BM!

[Aimee]

Ripley has pretty much stated what I would have for me.

It is unlikely that there is a roleblocker, for one, and you even said so; for another, my investigations right now are completely useless *unless* I survive long enough and get lucky enough to find another guilty investigation. If a guilty investigation *does* occur, then that's win, but until then we have to assume that it could be a godfather, and therefore, my investigations are useless until proven otherwise. =b

As for 'go ahead investigate me', you know very well why that won't work, and I think that's you trying to hide behind 'good intentions', really. Why else would you post these in the same post:

1a) Because there are six alive, would it be feasible to no lynch today? That could lead to a better end-game scenario (where there is three rather than four.) We would gain more information by tomorrow (perhaps another cop investigation if HJ stays alive, or information on the nightkill target's role.) And seeing as HJ and others seem suspicious of me, I am perfectly happy to be the investigation target.

3) After reading the whole thread, I am confused why people automatically assume that the final Mafia member is a Godfather. Yes, it is a possibility. It isn't set in stone, however. How do we know the final member of the Mafia isn't a roleblocker? I know this is unlikely - after all they would have to be pretty stupid not to block one of the two claimed power-roles on night 1 (who both functioned without being blocked). Perhaps also, it could be a way for the mod to trick us. Ultimately, I don't think it is right to assume the final Mafia member is the Godfather, although I accept it is a likely possibility.

Now, wait, let me get this straight... you say that we should not only not lynch anyone, but that we should have me investigate you (under the unlikely circumstances that I live), and then after another couple statements, say that it's likely there's a godfather, thereby nullifying my investigations.
This whole thing just seems to me like you're trying to display good intentions, and then later trying to say "oh, well there *might* not be a godfather. probably, but maybe not." I just don't like the way that sounds like your trying to appease the town here, while still not acknowledging that even an 'innocent' investigation on you would be just as useless as everywhere else, and I know you couldn't have missed all the talk about it, because you're not an idiot. =\

I disagree here, although I can understand why you would think that - I was kind of writing in a sort of balanced and informal way - in a sort of discussion tone, answering my own questions as I went on.

What I am actually very interested in is your case - it is clear from your previous comments that you suspect me, but also I haven't seen you present a full and formal case against me. This I would be interested to see.

I would also like to see BM's views now he has replaced in.

I am reminding everyone that I am doing a case against pickem. Also I would appreciate it if Pickem did the same for me, seeing as he also thinks that I am the most scummy.

[Aimee]

My comments in italics.

True. However, what are the main disadvantages of a no lynch at this stage? At the moment, I see almost none. The advantages are that there is a better endgame situation for the town, meaning that in the long-term we could be in a better situation.

You say "True", and then proceed to ignore everything you quoted. I gave a disadvantage of a no lynch: that we would end up in the same position tomorrow, but with one fewer townie alive to contribute to the discussion. And I said that I couldn't see the endgame position being better unless the scum kill a protown player suspicious enough to be a lynch candidate (which I think they can avoid, regardless of who the last scum actually is). Would you expand on what you mean by a "better endgame situation"?

When I say a better endgame situation, I meant one where there would be three rather than four left in, as in a textbook sense that is a better endgame scenario. So in a textbook sense, it seems like a potentially good idea.

This was the section that sounded horrible from my perspective

. According to you, it doesn't matter whether or not the final member of the Mafia is a Godfather, because HJ will get an innocent. THIS IS WRONG. If the final member of the Mafia is not a godfather, then a guilty result will occur. So really, it does matter.

It seems starkly obvious to me that with the doc dead, if there is any chance of the cop getting a guilty result on the surviving scum then the cop will be nightkilled. Am I missing something here?

Ah, sorry. It just clicked. I take it now you mean we wouldn't be getting any more guilty results because HJ would probably be NKed. I took it to mean that basically you were thinking we wouldn't get a guilty even if the final mafioso wasn't a Godfather. Miscommunication, sorry.

Personally, I was quite surprised by Ripley, here - I didn't get the "completely always pro-town" message that I usually get from him.

These remarks follow my comments about elailai, which are factual statements. Could you clarify what you found less than completely pro-town about them? Or, if you were referring back to something else, what was it? I can't reply unless you are specific.

Are you going to respond to HJ's post 661?

Done now.

I notice that neither HJ nor Ripley have mentioned anything about my case on Shanba, and about how I have found him to be pro-town.

Well, as I had already said, I thought Shanba was pro-town myself, and I didn't have anything to add or dispute. His focusing on the d8p/Khelvaster partnership, and his attack on Khel after Earwig's claim, make him look an unlikely scum. I'm more concerned about pickengenius and elailai than about Shanba.

Agreed on this point.

Also, when I mentioned the "anti-town vibes, it stemmed from the section I (correct me if I'm wrong) misinterpreted what you said. So overall, I don't see you as anti-town any more.

[Aimee]

I think we should no lynch, today or tomorrow. If we do it today, that increases our chances tosay and tomorrow. So actually, no lynch today is probably the best idea.

I'd be up for a massclaim, but that one probably should wait for tomorrow, or at least until after we've no lynched.

Agree 100% with this.

[Aimee]

2) Pickemgenius

Khelvaster made an initial comment about bandwagons on page 2.

So, the bandwagon switched from Shady to pickem?

To this, Pickem wrote:

Khel, I hardly count 2 votes as a wagon, and as a sidenote:
Why, you looking for one to join, hmmmm

unvote

vote: Khelvaster

After reading, I actually find this suspicious. Khelvaster never said he

wanted

to join a bandwagon, he was just wondering where the bandwagons were moving. So overall this is a misinterpretation of Khelvaster, something I just picked up. My view here can be emphasised by the fact that Khelvaster says "I'm not looking for a bandwagon." I would say it was an "unhealthy interest in bandwagons" as Ripley put it. But Khelvaster never said he wanted to join one.

After a bout of lurking, Shadyforce makes a good point, saying:

I don't know why, but I'm getting scummy vibes from pickem but I can't quite put my finger on it. He has posted a good few times, without actually contributing much by way of analysis or opinion. His posts have just been random or quiet votes. He quietly put a second "random" vote on Shanba, and later quietly puts a second on Khel. Then as the pressure rose on Khel over the next page or two, he kept his vote there while saying nothing, happy to be on the bandwagon without actually looking to be driving it.

It's scummy behaviour.

To which pickem replies:

My vote was more of a way to get out of the random voting stage.

Khel still hasn't responded about himself, and I was disappointed when he posted last night.

Personally, I agree with Shady here - Pickem seemed to be driving something without really driving it - a subtle way of leading a bandwagon early on day 1. Also, as we know Khelvaster is Mafia, it could be a way later in the game for pickem to justify how he is pro-town. In fact, it

is

an argument that pickem has been using.

He later gets into an sort of an argument with Khelvaster about all Khel's responses. His reasons seem to be that he was doing it to "evoke a response". To me, this seems to suggest he didn't find him scummy. Seeing as he evoked a response, why didn't he take off his vote? And he then says "Lurking is a mafia sign" even though he is lurking. Not only had he not posted much at that point, his posts had only some content (and he basically ignored all other issues, bar Khelvaster).

Overall, I find it scummy that pickem votes for Khelvaster and misinterprets him, and also doesn't focus on other issues that were occurring (he only discusses Khel in his posts, not d8P or anything else). I find this as scummy, and could be early distancing. His early play makes it difficult to read him - I myself said in my player analysis on page 8 that I hadn't "a clear opinion about him."

After my analysis, he makes a bizarre comment:

Would most people agree most of Day 1 is WIFOM, until somebody gets lynched, then we can go back and look for connections and what not,just certain things scream it louder then others.

On a side note, I have absolutely no idea what this means, seeing as most of day 1 is most certainly not WIFOM.

Perhaps this post shows strategy on his part - he already points to connections between players that can be drawn after lynching. It almost implies that once Khelvaster is lynched and is shown to be scum, he would look more town, according to his own strategy.

That said, he does elicit some town tells. He says that deadlines are bad for the town (on page 10, when Khel asks for a deadline).

Interestingly, MFB points out on Page 12 that pickem has only attacked Khelvaster the whole game. He also mentions something about random voting, which pickem talks about in his next post, completely ignoring the fact he has only attacked Khelvaster. In essense, it is lurking in plain sight - only providing opinions on one player, and seemingly ignoring all others. Also, it could be seen as a form of distancing.

After even more lurking, Patrick replaces and basically says he has no read on pickem, except that pickem focuses on only Khelvaster, something pickem says he does in other games and gives a reference. I still personally find it scummy.

Page 16, I find him to be pro-town. He argues his points well against crap logic from Khelvaster. Although, again, attention is heavily paid to Khel, and barely anyone else (although he does mention Earwig). However, after Earwig's claim, he just jumps in and says it is "safe" and pretty much dismisses him. He also says that he is against people influencing Earwig's choice, which could potentially be either pro or anti-town.

On Day 2, he basically makes no impact - just quickly leaves a vote on d8P and says almost nothing for the entirety of the day. This could easily be interpreted as scummy play - leaving no impact, but hiding away, as though he doesn't want to be linked in any way to d8P or Khelvaster. Indeed this is emphasised by his day 3 behaviour, where he makes badly formatted posts referring to the links of the dead players. This shows how much emphasis he puts on links between the scum - something he seemed to say subtly early in the game he would not show.

Overall, in day 1, he basically makes a whole ton of non-content posts, and only focuses on Khelvaster. Even then, he basically says very little - just focussing on the "getting out of random voting" argument as a reason for his vote. He says nothing for the entire day, and because he was against Khelvaster, it could lead to him being seen as more pro-town. Day 2, again, no links to d8P, but shoves a blatant vote on the bandwagon. And day 3, he seems too to just jump against me, the person with the most suspicion early in day 3.

I would say that pickem's behaviour could easily make him be the last scum. Unlike Shanba, I believe his posts in relation to Khelvaster (how he attacked him almost all day 1) can be seen as scummy, as they aren't actually very analytical, and don't really show why Khelvaster is scum. The way he said absolutely nothing about d8P also shows there could be a link between them - distancing.

It should therefore be obvious that I consider pickem to be the final scum in the game.

[Aimee]

Seeing as I did make the case, and I am sure of pickem's alignment, I am going to

vote: Pickemgenius

[Aimee]

Aimee: so you're so convinced by your own case on pickem that you aren't even going to look at Coppelia/elailai/BM? (Or me, for that matter?)I realise that there's little or nothing from the last two, but I'm a bit surprised that after taking the trouble to do a detailed case on Shanba and pickem, you're just leaving it at that.

I think I will have a look at them, but for the moment, I am going to leave my vote on pickem.

[Aimee]

BM, we really need it by tomorrow. Sorry for the pressure, but the deadline is on Monday.

[Aimee]

Would it be a good idea to consider no lynch today?

[Aimee]

I agree. With the deadline today, I wouldn't feel comfortable lynching anyone yet (although pickem remains my top suspect). I think that it would benefit us more not to rush into a lynch, and to no lynch.

Vote: no lynch

[Aimee]

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

[Aimee]

Since my partner has hinted that she doesn't want to support me,

vote: d8P

Im not sure if anyone else picked up on this already, but i feel it may be quite significant. A few posts prior to this, D8P had volunteered to claim. Within the space of those few posts, he had changed to the stance shown above. Now, scum cant communicate during the day, so he must have got this indication from someone between those posts. The only people who's posts could be construed as anything like warning him off a claim, are those by Pickemgenius and Aimee. Note also the female tense used in his post. As far as i am aware/care Pickem is male. Aimee is possibly the only player here who isn't. Now obviously the latter slip up doesnt make for a good argument, but i do suggest that the rest of you reread that page (23ish?).

Unvote, Vote: Aimee

not that i am expecting any sort of lynch to occur today.

1. If this was actually a point, it would refer to Coppelia just as much.
2. It could easily be a way for d8P to throw suspicion around, to try and get suspicion onto me (remembering when Khel said you and I were his scum-buddies, this could easily be a similar tell).
3. That is obviously stretching.

I don't really see how that weak tell justifies a vote today, although you yourself seem to admit you don't expect a lynch to occur. Is it a way to show your suspicion of me?

[Aimee]

I think Ripley's death confirms the final Mafioso is a godfather, therefore knowing they wouldn't need to worry about investigations.

[Aimee]

BM, HJ is basically confirmed at this point.

[Aimee]

I think Ripley's death confirms the final Mafioso is a godfather, therefore knowing they wouldn't need to worry about investigations.

thats circular logic, as it is only valid if HJ is honestly town, which is not confirmed atm as far as i can see.

And to continue where i left off yesterday:

Vote: Aimee

its nothing personal, i just have a feeling you are scum here.

@HJ-it bugs me when somebody compliments the scum. i wouldnt say its a tell-just a little annoying. :p

I know it isn't personal.

However, we need a case. No one has provided a sufficient case against me yet. This is especially necessary today, when I believe we need to lynch someone.

I am pretty sure HJ and Shanba are town. Pickem and BM are therefore my top suspects.

[Aimee]

HJ, it sucks you are leaving.

Gah, why am I at -1? No one has provided any sufficient evidence against me, and all I have seen is vague "I still find her suspicious" comments from both HJ and BM. Could you both justify your votes with reasons (which so far haven't been given)?

HJ, if you were leaving, why place a vote two minutes before to put me at -1.

I am worried about being hammered, especially since pickem has expressed a desire to vote for me in the past. Urging people not to vote at this point.

[Aimee]

I still would like to hear who HJ investigated beforw he leaves/ I vote you.

If you are referring to me, then you have yet to give a valid case against me. No one has. Also, you understand if you were going to vote now, that's actually anti-town, because it curbs discussion, and would rush into the end-game.

Note the fact I am not voting now. This day should not be rushed. We should not be rushed into an endgame scenario we aren't prepared for, and your comments indicate you would be prepared for that.

Also, I will analyse your responses to the case I made against you tomorrow.

[Aimee]

Since my partner has hinted that she doesn't want to support me,

vote: d8P

Im not sure if anyone else picked up on this already, but i feel it may be quite significant. A few posts prior to this, D8P had volunteered to claim. Within the space of those few posts, he had changed to the stance shown above. Now, scum cant communicate during the day, so he must have got this indication from someone between those posts. The only people who's posts could be construed as anything like warning him off a claim, are those by Pickemgenius and Aimee. Note also the female tense used in his post. As far as i am aware/care Pickem is male. Aimee is possibly the only player here who isn't. Now obviously the latter slip up doesnt make for a good argument, but i do suggest that the rest of you reread that page (23ish?).

Unvote, Vote: Aimee

not that i am expecting any sort of lynch to occur today.

ah now i remember. Thats my reasoning for voting for you Aimee.

Confirm Vote: Aimee

As I have pointed out twice before, this is not only flawed, but stupid. You even admit in your quoted post "the latter slip up doesn't make for a good argument," which is especially hypocritical since it seems this is the only reason you are voting for me - if it doesn't make for a good argument, why are using it as your argument against me? Isn't that the same as basically admitting you are voting for me using a bad argument?

FoS: Battle Mage

, for complete stupidity and hypocrisy here.

[Aimee]

I would also really like to hear from Shanba, seeing as he definitely seemingly pro-town, and no doubt will provide some vaid and useful analysis.

[Aimee]

Note to previous: I am currently in training for deployment, and had the good fortune to have time to visit the computer lab today. Most days are not so gracious.

It was absolutely awesome playing with you, hope you have an awesome time!

[Aimee]

ah yeh. i had forgot that the dead bodies had been referred to as 'goons'.

REvote: Aimee

Please explain why you are re-voting me. If it is because of the stupid "d8P said his partner was a female" thing, I am probably going to explode.

[Aimee]

ah yeh. i had forgot that the dead bodies had been referred to as 'goons'.

REvote: Aimee

Please explain why you are re-voting me. If it is because of the stupid "d8P said his partner was a female" thing, I am probably going to explode.

i unvoted solely because HJ's comment put you as town beyond reasonable doubt. However, HH did well in bringing it to my attention that this evidence was in fact a case AGAINST you if anything, thus my vote was placed back on.

BM

I wasn't really focusing on that. It was a bit ambiguous. What I really meant is: why are you voting for me?

[Aimee]

It doesn't make sense to kill an unknown when there's a confirmed townie in the game. That makes me think about who is relatively new and/or thought that Ripley was very obviously town. Since I'm the only one here with a join date before 2007, I'm thinking about who felt Ripley was such obvious town.

I think this points least towards me. Yesterday, I'm pretty sure Ripley was number 2 on my scum-list, and I made a few references to his posts having an "anti-town vibe". So, I would say this tell points far more to Battle Mage in particular than myself.

[quote+"HackerHuck"]I'm starting to have some doubts now though, because he pressed for a no-lynch at the end of D3. Big lesson folks - no lynch = no info![/quote]

Please explain how it is anti-town to no lynch with six people remaining.

Would you not argue that those pushing yesterday at the last minute for a lynch - BM and Pickem both voted for me really near the deadline - is scummy, and pushing for a no lynch (like Shanba and myself) is not scummy?

As a note there, I found BM and pickem's votes against me at the end of day 3 incredibly scummy and opportunistic.

BattleMage - I didn't get a great read on Coppelia. She had some early warning signs. Post 232 seems to be a bit too supportive of Khelv. She also rubbed me the wrong way with 263, where she seemed to be warning Khelv that he was making a big mistake. I also saw that BM made an interesting welcome post to Ripley. I got the feeling that BM respected his play, so that makes me think he might be a likely BM NK his first night into the game. That also jives, since he hadn't noticed that I (HJ) am a confirmed cop. The last and weakest point is that BM replaced a "she", which could be who d8p referred to.

I agree with all of this. Why is this more suspicious than what I have done?

Aimee - My early read on Aimee is almost non-existent. She made that great post early on and was quoted ad nauseum, but I didn't really get that much out of it. I think that it was a case of information overload and didn't really contribute as much as it appeared to.

I unequivocally disagree with this.

I got almost nothing on Aimee, and that's not a good sign from a day one.

I accept completely that I lurked on day 1. However, check all posts made by Aimee - you will see that around the time before May 19th I was pretty much unable to post because of finals. Then between then and June the 1st I had more finals and was working full-time, and then on June 4th to June the 10th, I was on holiday. So as a result, I missed quite a lot of day 1. I wasn't here for any of Khelvaster's claiming incident, or anything like that. This will match with "View all posts made by Aimee", which I definitely believe you should look at.

My point? I was not strategically lurking, and was lurking through genuine real-life circumstances. I therefore strongly believe that my lurking was not a scum-tell. Note that when I did have more time, I did post more. This explains why I have posted more since the beginning of day 3.

Most recently, I really didn't like the push for a no-lynch on day 3. There's no benefit to the town from it and it seemed like she was hoping for an investigation of her that would return an innocent.

No, this is wrong. It is not anti-town to push for a no lynch. As for the whole investigation thing, I wasn't at all bothered by that at all. As I think I pointed out, an innocent investigation does not in the slightest clear myself or Battle Mage.

The fact that she assumed the cop would survive (and she was right) also make me uneasy about her alignment. I have noticed that she's stepped up the posting and case building, but at this point, there's no harm for the scum in doing so.

I have already explained that it is for real-life reasons that I had more access, which faciliated by posting on day 3 and after.

I notice you have elicited to mention any of my case building, or any of my conclusions gained from it.

Oh yeah, she's also a "she".

Shoot me now.

This has been proved several times to be completely flawed. It is not a reason why I am scummy in the slightest.

Are you really suggesting that d8P is a complete dumbass? No. He most likely knew that there would be people like BM that would use it as a tell against me. d8P is a smart player. Do you honestly believe he would just reveal his scum-partner like that?

[Aimee]

Also, as far as I can see, BM is voting for me because of the whole d8P "she" thing. However, as HH proved, this could have referred to Coppelia, ala BM at this point.

So in other words, not only is BM voting for me using a flawed case that even he doesn't refute, he is voting for me for something which could just as easily be turned towards himself. So in essence, according to his reasoning, he could just as easily be self-voting.

I will present a case against BM today. I am completely fed up with his opportunism and stupidity.

[Aimee]

Coppelia/Elailai/Battle Mage

Coppelia first. She joins the Khelvaster wagon by pointing out an inconsistency of Khel's:

Okay, now that several people have pointed this out:

Bandwagons are the only way to move the game along, since nobody was just not voting. Now people seem to be bandwagoning on you, Ripley...

But earlier you said:

there were three votes for shady, and now there are three votes for you. If you didn't notice, it wasn't like I suddenly changed my vote to you.

I already cast my vote--I'm not looking for a bandwagon.

If you really feel bandwagons are the only way to move the game along- then why are you against them earlier? This feels weird to me.

unvote: Pickemgenius; vote: Khelvaster

I actually find this post pro-town, although beanbagboy I distinctly remember was suspicious of her joining the bandwagon. She was the third person on the bandwagon, and pointed out something quite scummy he had said. It looks perfectly pro-town here. However, as I said, BBB did pick up on it.

Her next post is far more murky:

@Khelvaster-I think you're being far too defensive, with that last post being totally unnecessary. Sometimes, scum lurk, especially newbie scum. It's not a crime to wonder where someone is when they haven't posted in a day, to make sure they're not lurking.

That is an illogical statement. Since you voted for me and provided some justification, no matter how bad that justification was, it's reasonable for us to believe you were intending to implicate me as being mafia.

pickem's already addressed this, but I wanted to let you know that your interpretation of his actions is not unanimous across the board. With have very little, if any, evidence to go on in D1. By your logic, we would never vote at all. You find things that ping your scumdar, then you start asking questions. Sometimes you base your vote on those reactions, and sometimes you vote to get a reaction. We've certainly gotten one from you, haven't we?

Here's my summation of your posts today: Posts 94-96 seem very confident, with you naming three suspects and giving some reasoning on why. You make a point to tell us you play in mIRC sometimes. In Post 100, you're even aggressive. And even when I didn't agree with some of the reasoning you laid out, I found this attitude normal and fine. Some players ask questions, poke at your theories- then in 107, you're asking a question about mafia terminology and announcing your newbie status in 108, even directing attention to when you joined. Then in 111, you say:

Saying in mIRC we bandwagoned early would imply that I am not used to the scum forums--something I wanted to avoid for reasons I already stated.

I'm sorry for using the WIFOM argument--I had no idea it was so frowned upon.

You say you didn't want us to know you were new to the forum, even though- as you yourself pointed out to us, we can plainly see when you joined every time you post. You say the reason you didn't want us to know is your confidence in catching scum, and that we wouldn't pay as much attention if we knew.

The only time you've offered any observations on other players is today, though, and your very first comment is that mIRC one. So- did that strategy not last long? Unless your strategy was to 'play the newbie card' all along, and we were, as you say, meant to gather from that frist post today that you were new.

Bottom line: I could go either way with you at this point. You did display that confidence in your posts that you talked about- I could see you as being town at this point. But I could also easily see you as using the 'I'm new' defense to cover a multitude of sins. I also dislike your overdefensiveness.

I hate the way she gives Khel advice - like the experienced mother hen giving adivce to her newbie disciples. Khelvaster was in trouble, so she told him to stop being so defensive, and says that scum lurk. So in effect, she is saying don't be so defensive, and don't lurk, yet masks it in a pretty light that makes her sound like she is acting in a pro-town way.

I also don't like the way she sits on the fence here after being so resolute over his scumminess earlier. It shows a sense of flexibilty I would expect from the Mafia - she is most definitely trying to keep her options open, in case Khel manages to look pro-town and the bandwagon moves away. I think this post is very scummy.

Her next post deals directly with d8P.

Attacking one player's arguments against another because the logic is flawed or the interpretation is overly complicated is noble, but it results in defending a player without knowing their alignment. Unless there is good cause (suspicious amount of support for a weak attack, multiple players overlooking a flaw, etc), that's sloppy gameplay and just causes confusion in the ranks, imo.

This is a genuine question, not a criticism, because what you say makes a certain amount of sense to me. But- how do you hope the town will behave on D1? It seems to me that if we followed your example to it's logical conclusion, we'd have almost no activity the first day.

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question here.

Like I said, I try not too post too often on day one unless I have something valuable to add.

How do you define valuable?

It seems here again like she is trying to appear pro-town by locking against d8P's suggestions. It also acts as very effective distancing here, similar to Khelvaster earlier.

She gets in a debate where lynching lurkers is bad - perhaps another defence for lurker scum Khel? But overall, again I find her taking the pro-town route here,What I find notable is in this following post:

I tried to say this before, but I wasn't very clear. This is not an inconsistency. In the second, earlier quote, Khel was pointing out that he was already on one bandwagon, and he wasn't looking for another. That, to me, is definitely not speaking out against bws.

I re-read the first four pages of our game, and that explanation satisifies me. As it was the main reason for my voting,

unvote: Khelvaster

One question: Khel, why didn't you point this out? Or did you, and I somehow missed it?

Because you've only been playing here since the 5th, am I right in assuming that you haven't played a deadlined game here? Because I'm telling you from personal experience that

we do not want to be deadlined.

. It is a bad, bad thing for the town. For one, the more substancial posts we have, the more we have to go on in D2. For another, having a deadline gives scum a chance to manipulate the lynch by hanging back, then hammering. Also, it forces townies to make decisions about lynches before they are ready. Make no mistake, a deadline is a punishment. I think this game is going too well to be deadlined.

If you feel we're missing a sense of urgency, my suggestion to you would be to make a case and try to convince some of us you're on the right track.

She once again takes the stance that deadlines are bad (distancing and disagreeing with Khelvaster again). However, I don't like her unvote here - she seems to disagree with Khel and still finds him scummy, whilst at the same time removes her vote, and once again gives Khelvaster advice.

I'm not exactly sure what this means:

re: challenging me/defending Khel: I like it when people challenge me on my assertions, as it gives me a chance to either a) strengthen my argument, or b) see flaws where I previously didn't. It also gives other players the benefit of looking closer at exchanges they may have missed, and drawing their own conclusions. If what you're saying is that you're worried that you're making Khel's case for him and you're not yet sure you want to be...I get that, but I still think you should say what's on your mind. If Khel is scum, such close scrutinty on his posts by many players will help reveal it. If he's town, you're helping the town, period.

I checked back, and I don't understand if this refers to her defending Khel or someone else defending Khel. If it refers to her defending Khelvaster, she did not answer the question at all. If it refers to someone else, she basically says make Khelvaster's cases for him, and let him lurk. Basically it seems like a way to let Khel off the hook, and make someone else do the work so Khelvaster doesn't mess up. So whatever it means, I take it as scummy.

There are more posts that she goes anti-Khelvaster with, as more distancing.

Then there is this post:

I really wish people would read my posts fully, instead of cherry picking. I put in the caveat,

MF has said exactly want I wanted to say to this.

No one cherry picked your posts. The very caveat you point to suggests that you have already closed your mind to other options- several players are telling you why this is a bad idea. On top of that, the avenue of thought you've chosen is a bad one, and several players have told you why on that count, as well. I don't like how overdefensive you are when someone questions you, especially when the questions are very valid ones.

If you were a more experienced player, your recent behavior would already have me voting for you. My feeling on you right now is that you're newbie town, not newbie scum, but your position as new to the game isn't going to excuse every suspicious action you make for very much longer.

Where she basically says she finds Khelvaster as town and not scum. Yet again she gives him advice - I really don't see how I didn't notice this. But basically throughout the game, she was giving Khelvaster advice.

And then Coppelia disappears. Without her leadership and guidance, the mafia crumble, and Khelvaster collapses, and later so does d8P.

So overall, I could easily see Coppelia's play as not only scummy, but like a godfather. She distanced from d8P and Khelvaster, gave Khelvaster advice, and overall didn't really give too many opinions herself. She seemed always trying to appear pro-town, whilst at the same time defending and distancing from Khelvaster. I would say that her behaviour would be like that of scum.

Next up is elailai. He is barely around at all - yet his time is significant too. Throughout his existance in the game, he basically expresses no suspicion against d8P, saying he would vote unless there was a mason confirmation, but never actually voted. He then disappeared. Elailai's actions only emphasise my suspicions of Coppelia at this point.

And now Battle Mage. Oh boy. First of all, BM hasn't given thoughts of anyone except myself, and even then he hasn't said much at all. After suspicion was piled against myself from almost everyone, Battle Mage conveniently comes in, and just jumps on the bandwagon.

Since my partner has hinted that she doesn't want to support me,

vote: d8P

Im not sure if anyone else picked up on this already, but i feel it may be quite significant. A few posts prior to this, D8P had volunteered to claim. Within the space of those few posts, he had changed to the stance shown above. Now, scum cant communicate during the day, so he must have got this indication from someone between those posts. The only people who's posts could be construed as anything like warning him off a claim, are those by Pickemgenius and Aimee. Note also the female tense used in his post. As far as i am aware/care Pickem is male. Aimee is possibly the only player here who isn't. Now obviously the latter slip up doesnt make for a good argument, but i do suggest that the rest of you reread that page (23ish?).

Unvote, Vote: Aimee

not that i am expecting any sort of lynch to occur today.

I don't need to say again why this is a flawed and weak tell. So basically BM just comes into the game and gives one of the weakest ever tells, uses it to vote against the person who everyone finds is suspicious, uses a tell that could just as equally refer to himself, and gives no analysis whatsoever. This is obviously scummy.

I also find it suspect he would put this vote on so close to a deadline - he is almost pushing all the others who were suspicious of me to vote for me and cause a rushed lynch. (Which pickem did). Highly scummy behaviour.

So, back on day 4. After a night phase, and some time to re-read, BM comes back. So as a pro-town player replacing in, I would probably try now to get some analysis done. Show who I am suspicious and not suspicious of. Explain my reasoning for the Aimee vote yesterday.

But of course, Battle Mage does not do that. Instead, he takes one of my comments, calls it "circular logic" (it's not), and then says this:

And to continue where i left off yesterday: Vote: Aimee

its nothing personal, i just have a feeling you are scum here.

So, he comes back and gives no reason. "I just have a feeling you are scum". Incredibly non-committal and scummy.

I ask him for reasoning, since he didn't give any, so he supplies his weak reasoning from yesterday. I use three points to disprove that point. So instead of saying anything, Battle Mage completely ignores absolutely everything I have said, and leaves his vote on. He basically has no way to rebutt my points, so seemingly tries to ignore them. So, either he has a weak reason for voting for me, or he has no reason. Scummy.

He appears to have not read the game. He says that HJ's innocent investigation result on me proves me innocent, when it obviously does not. He later says that the innocent result is actually a case against me, if anything, in which case it is also a case against HIM (HJ had an innocent on BM too). So basically, all his reasoning at this point could equally refer to himself as well as me! Talk about scummy behaviour.

So to conclude, I think it is pretty obvious that Battle Mage is the godfather. Coppelia did a good job until being replaced of leading the scum, defending and distancing from Khelvaster, and distancing from d8P. Elailai didn't quell my suspiciouns, and in fact only emphasised them. And Battle Mage came in, bandwagoning and voting with no reasons. He is incredibly opportunistic and non-committal. I see him as the most likely to be the godfather at this point.

Vote: Battle Mage

[Aimee]

And it seems we have another gem of a post here:

1. You obviously haven't read the reason for my vote. Had you done so, you would know that this is untrue.

Yup. Just read every single one of your posts. The only other 'reasoning' you have given is this:

its nothing personal, i just have a feeling you are scum here.

So, even you admit that you aren't using weak reasoning. So you are using no reasoning. You have no reason for voting for me.

You have no reason for voting for me

.

2. I

KNOW

I'M TOWN. Even if i wasn't, i'm not going to consider myself a suspect. I

KNOW

that D8P wasnt referring to me, because i am not scum.

In Battle Mage speak: Yes, and I know I am town. I know d8P wasn't referring to me because I am not scum.

I can say exactly the same thing as you. So I repeat - how does this reasoning of d8P's vote make

me

scummy and

you

not scummy. It doesn't. Why do you get cleared and I don't?

Also, please clarify this statement:

"I KNOW I'M TOWN.

Even if I wasn't, i'm not going to consider myself a suspect.

"

Is that a scum claim? Even if you aren't town, d8P wouldn't be referring to you? So in other words you are either scum or neutral.

If you weren't town what would you be? Scum or neutral. And why wouldn't you consider yourself a suspect.

[Aimee]

And Battle Mage's recent post not only confirms my suspicions, but increases them.

[Aimee]

Ugh, BM was so scummy.

Anyway, I similarly can't see Shanba as the godfather either. The way he did completely attack Khelvaster and d8P so readily just makes me think it would be such a risky gambit as scum.

That said, I don't even find pickem scummy either.

I'm going to have to go through again and piece together some more thoughts on this.

[Aimee]

EBWOP: I do remember I didn't like Pickem's second vote against me on Day 3, and I did make a case against him that I will reply to.

[Aimee]

Oh Aimee, dear old Aimee.

Gets BM lynched quite easily to save her own ass for atleast another day.

Oh Aimee

Doesn't NK the cop until he gets an "innocent" on you (everyone new HH/HJ would investigate you that night)

Oh Aimee

Limited reactions with d8p & Khel.

Oh Aimee

How so much I want to vote for you scum.

Oh FOS: Aimee

This is pretty weak...

[Aimee]

Ya.

...


Could you also explain on Day 3 why you placed the second vote on me so close to the deadline? Sounds incredibly opportunistic.

[Aimee]

2) Pickemgenius

Khelvaster made an initial comment about bandwagons on page 2.

So, the bandwagon switched from Shady to pickem?

To this, Pickem wrote:

Khel, I hardly count 2 votes as a wagon, and as a sidenote:
Why, you looking for one to join, hmmmm

unvote

vote: Khelvaster

After reading, I actually find this suspicious. Khelvaster never said he

wanted

to join a bandwagon, he was just wondering where the bandwagons were moving. So overall this is a misinterpretation of Khelvaster, something I just picked up. My view here can be emphasised by the fact that Khelvaster says "I'm not looking for a bandwagon." I would say it was an "unhealthy interest in bandwagons" as Ripley put it. But Khelvaster never said he wanted to join one.

Wondering where the bandwagon was and asking where it has moved to implies like he wants to be on it in a subtle way.

I unequivocally disagree. He was making an observation. You clearly misinterpreted what he was saying.

After a bout of lurking, Shadyforce makes a good point, saying:

I don't know why, but I'm getting scummy vibes from pickem but I can't quite put my finger on it. He has posted a good few times, without actually contributing much by way of analysis or opinion. His posts have just been random or quiet votes. He quietly put a second "random" vote on Shanba, and later quietly puts a second on Khel. Then as the pressure rose on Khel over the next page or two, he kept his vote there while saying nothing, happy to be on the bandwagon without actually looking to be driving it.

It's scummy behaviour.

To which pickem replies:

My vote was more of a way to get out of the random voting stage.

Khel still hasn't responded about himself, and I was disappointed when he posted last night.

Personally, I agree with Shady here - Pickem seemed to be driving something without really driving it - a subtle way of leading a bandwagon early on day 1. Also, as we know Khelvaster is Mafia, it could be a way later in the game for pickem to justify how he is pro-town.

In fact, it is an argument that pickem has been using

.

I took full responsibility for the BW on Khel, I never denied I was leading it either.

italics part-

Could you show everyone an example where I say I was town because I was the Bandwagon leader of Khel. kthxbai.

Yeah, ok. I can accept I am wrong here. I thought I saw you say this, but you never did. My apologies.

He later gets into an sort of an argument with Khelvaster about all Khel's responses. His reasons seem to be that he was doing it to "evoke a response". To me, this seems to suggest he didn't find him scummy. Seeing as he evoked a response, why didn't he take off his vote? And he then says "Lurking is a mafia sign" even though he is lurking. Not only had he not posted much at that point, his posts had only some content (and he basically ignored all other issues, bar Khelvaster).

Blatant OMGUS from Khel(his reaction) made me keep my vote on him.

I don't really agree with this. From reading his posts in isolation, he only briefly focuses on you, before quickly moving towards MightyFireBall. Quite a possible scum-link there.

Overall, I find it scummy that pickem votes for Khelvaster and misinterprets him, and also doesn't focus on other issues that were occurring (he only discusses Khel in his posts, not d8P or anything else). I find this as scummy, and could be early distancing. His early play makes it difficult to read him - I myself said in my player analysis on page 8 that I hadn't "a clear opinion about him."

Heh, I was quite happy with my vote the whole time, and took note of certain things, just nobody Day 1 was scummier then Khel.

Just because you were happy with your vote doesn't mean you can't comment on other things. You didn't. I think this is scummy.

After my analysis, he makes a bizarre comment:

Would most people agree most of Day 1 is WIFOM, until somebody gets lynched, then we can go back and look for connections and what not,just certain things scream it louder then others.

On a side note, I have absolutely no idea what this means, seeing as most of day 1 is most certainly not WIFOM.

Perhaps this post shows strategy on his part - he already points to connections between players that can be drawn after lynching. It almost implies that once Khelvaster is lynched and is shown to be scum, he would look more town, according to his own strategy.

Nope, nobody knows anything (except scum) on Day 1, and until we get a lynch, we can't solidly point fingers at anybody for their interactions/lack of, with people.

I agree partially with the whole WIFOM thing, but connections are not everything - indeed, you admitted on Day 4 that there wasn't much to connect me with Khelvaster and d8P, yet your are now jumping out the gates against me.

That said, he does elicit some town tells. He says that deadlines are bad for the town (on page 10, when Khel asks for a deadline).

-Another reason I was quite happy with my vote on Khel.

But why didn't you comment on anything else?

Interestingly, MFB points out on Page 12 that pickem has only attacked Khelvaster the whole game. He also mentions something about random voting, which pickem talks about in his next post, completely ignoring the fact he has only attacked Khelvaster. In essense, it is lurking in plain sight - only providing opinions on one player, and seemingly ignoring all others. Also, it could be seen as a form of distancing.

-Lurking in plain sight.....hardly, I knew I was only attacking Khelvaster the whole time, as I've said before, until I find someone scummier, I leave my vote on.

You didn't comment about other people, and that is scummy. Focusing on Khelvaster, who just happened to be Mafia is not a town tell, but a scum tell.

After even more lurking, Patrick replaces and basically says he has no read on pickem, except that pickem focuses on only Khelvaster, something pickem says he does in other games and gives a reference. I still personally find it scummy.

- You find it scummy that I did this same exact thing in Newbie 334 and was a townie in that game?

Yes. I do not see how this is town at all. In fact, I see it as very convenient.

Page 16, I find him to be pro-town. He argues his points well against crap logic from Khelvaster. Although, again, attention is heavily paid to Khel, and barely anyone else (although he does mention Earwig). However, after Earwig's claim, he just jumps in and says it is "safe" and pretty much dismisses him. He also says that he is against people influencing Earwig's choice, which could potentially be either pro or anti-town.

- You just said it, crap logic by Khel, I was still very happy with my vote on Khel.
- I believe Khel made a reference to it being a crap claim or something, and I said that a vig claim was believeable.

Yes, I know why you voted for Khelvaster. That is not an issue here. The issue is that you ignored absolutely everyone else.

On Day 2, he basically makes no impact - just quickly leaves a vote on d8P and says almost nothing for the entirety of the day. This could easily be interpreted as scummy play - leaving no impact, but hiding away, as though he doesn't want to be linked in any way to d8P or Khelvaster. Indeed this is emphasised by his day 3 behaviour, where he makes badly formatted posts referring to the links of the dead players.

This shows how much emphasis he puts on links between the scum - something he seemed to say subtly early in the game he would not show

.

Day 2, hmm, what impact did you make again?

one sec.
Masons get guilty results when investigated?

anybody?

Hey I atleast contributed something during day 2, if not this basically solidified d8p as scum. So you can try and say i didn't say anything day 2, when it was really fast, and you said basically jack shit as well.

Turning this back to me doesn't help. This was directed at you. Now only Shanba is left, who id make an impact Day 2, the fact you didn't is more telling, and definitely confirms my suspicions of you.

And no, I wouldn't say asking a completely moronic question such as that is particularly helpful at all.

Are you seriously using badly formatted posts to call me scum?

Nope, but the fact that you have for the entirety of the game failed to create a proper case against me, even though I was at the top of your suspicion list is. Especially since almost everyone said they found your posts hard to read, yet you made no issues to correct them and re-affirm your case.

Overall, in day 1, he basically makes a whole ton of non-content posts, and only focuses on Khelvaster. Even then, he basically says very little - just focussing on the "getting out of random voting" argument as a reason for his vote. He says nothing for the entire day, and because he was against Khelvaster, it could lead to him being seen as more pro-town. Day 2, again, no links to d8P, but shoves a blatant vote on the bandwagon. And day 3, he seems too to just jump against me, the person with the most suspicion early in day 3.

- Non content, more like constant stonewalling of Khel's craplogic Day 1.
- My vote on Khel (at first) was to get out of the random voting stage, his Blatant OMGUS on me, and craplogic solidified it.
- What links did anybody have with d8p on Day 2?
- Blatant vote on a bandwagon, are you serious?
WHY THE FUCK do you not vote somebody found guilty by an uncounterclaimed cop?
- Yeah, mainly I find you most suspicious (still). Your case seems a little OMGUS also.

Your posts on Day 1 were pretty much contentless. It was just "Khel this, Khel that". You are doing it here as well - all I have heard in this post is "Khel's crap logic" and "Khel's blatant OMGUS", which is basically what you said Day 1 too.

I would say that pickem's behaviour could easily make him be the last scum. Unlike Shanba, I believe his posts in relation to Khelvaster (how he attacked him almost all day 1) can be seen as scummy, as they aren't actually very analytical, and don't really show why Khelvaster is scum. The way he said absolutely nothing about d8P also shows there could be a link between them - distancing.

It should therefore be obvious that I consider pickem to be the final scum in the game.

- I attacked Khelvaster all of day one, I think i've been fairly clear it's just my playstyle, and reference (at the time) my only completed game.
- Stonewalling craplogic, and Blatant OMGUS isn't hard to do really.
- d8p didn't say alot, besides mainly responding to your mega post.

- So to close it up, you think I'm scum because I only focused on Khel the first day, and in this same post where you attack me, you list quite a few reasons why I never moved my vote from Khel (craplogic, deadline)?[/quote]

Yes, we know you attacked Khelvaster. You didn't actualy say that much though - it was just blah blah blah all over again, through re-reads. We know it is your playstyle - I don't see that as an important point, to be honest. I would have used it early as a point for you, but against someone I think is pro-town (Shanba), I don't think it holds much merit at all.

Overall, reading back, I don't see this as a convincing defence at all. Note how he continues to emphasise again and again how he attacked Khelvaster - yet re-reading his posts showed me he didn't actually say much. I reaffirm my stance that pickem is definitely most likely to be the final Mafioso.

[Aimee]

Continuing my pickem analysis, I hate his opportunistic vote against me on Day 3 - it had no reasoning and I see this as incredibly scummy. Furthermore, pushing against a no lynch is scummy, which is most definitely what pickem was doing - we clearly established that no lynching was the best idea.

And he says nothing about the BM wagon on Day 4, except earlier when he said he would join. His Day 5 attacks seem to revolve around me saying HJ should investigate me (perhaps slightly scummy), and the fact I made a case against BM which inevitably ended up in his lynch (I don't see how this is scummy at all). Overall, his Day 5 behaviour merely emphasises my thoughts on him - he is the last scum.

[Aimee]

Ok. I think through my previous two posts I have explained why I think pickem is scum.

[Aimee]

Okay. Here are my notable posts, and why I made them.

First of all, at the beginning of the game, I had exams, so my first few posts were a random vote and apologies for lurking. I did say "Khelvaster is the most scummy so far", but I was very vague, and hadn't been fully reading the thread. I wanted to make my suspicions of him clear at that point.

My first major post is probably the most major one in the entire game - my massive analytical post. When I was writing that post, I knew I had been lurking, and it was time to contribute. So I did. I analysed the game with an Aimeelicious touch, and pointed out those who I found suspicious. It was clearly effective, and I am very glad I did it.

My post 8 was next - some people (including yourself) had things to say about the analysis, and so I addressed them. Post 10 was a criticism of Khelvaster's deadline suggestion (which was anti-town), and 11 I asked BBB for what holes he found in my analysis. Post 17 is when I said I found Earwig still the most scummy, and post 19 I questioned why Earwig had been put to -1 by Khelvaster and Earwig. Post 20 and 21 were concerning my views on Earwig's claim, and some things people had said about them. All these posts were general observations, and who I thought was scum.

Then I went on vacation, so that was me Day 1. (I don't really know if I am doing this right at all. )

So Day 2. I come back from my holiday, and find that in my absense, Khelvaster called you and I his scumbuddies. I was naturally shocked by this since I am town (and believe you are too), so I clarified this in post 24, as well as questioning Earwig's vig choice. I wanted to let people know that Khelvaster was talking a load of crap.

Post 26 - HJ had just said he had a guilty on d8P. I FoSed him. Many have asked why I didn't vote, and I should explain again - I was worried the wagon against him would grow too quickly, especially since there was no guarantees of his sanity. For those that are questioning why there would be different sanities in a mini normal, I have seen it, yes. (The game is still in progress, so I can't say anything about it.) Also, there is a setup I helped review for the mini normal list which had different sanities. So overall I find different cop sanities could be completely plausible. That's why I didn't want the wagon to grow too fast - in case d8P was innocent. Evidently, the wagon did grow too fast - as d8P's self vote shows, he agreed.

On Day 3, I had to justify my stance on this, and also defend myself from Shanba's case against me. Then, I needed a re-read - I wasn't 100% sure about who was scum. I also debated whether we should no lynch and mass claim on Day 3 in my next post (post 33), although I wrote it discursively which caused criticisms from both HJ and Ripley, which I later addressed. I then made a case on pickemgenius, who I still believe is scum (I believed BM was more). Then I voted no lynch because I saw it as the best way to go in Day 3.

Day 4, I questioned Battle Mage all day since I found him incredibly scummy. I made a case against him and criticised his ill-founded vote on me. I also defended myself from HH's accusations. Overall, this was because I heavily believed BM was the last scum.

And today, I have affirmed my stance on Shanba (pro-town) and affirmed my stance on pickemgenius, explaining again why I find him to be the last scum.

[Aimee]

pickem, have you got anything to say before I hammer?

[Aimee]

I'll give you until tomorrow morning GMT. Meaning you have about 10 hours.

Also, Shanba is unable to move his vote because he is on vacation. Since I'm not going to hammer myself, I have to pick either you or Shanba.

[Aimee]

So do you think I am the final scum pickem?

[Aimee]

Oh my god.

I can't believe after all the times I was attacked in this game, I now need to decide who to vote for - I'm the only confirmed town!

Eeek, this is definitely going to need another re-read.

[Aimee]

Gah! I still have no idea. I'm going to re-read again.

I feel whatever I do is gonna be the wrong decision, so... *sigh* I'm completely stuck at this point.

[Aimee]

Why on Day 3 did you want to get me lynched instead of having a no lynch?

[Aimee]

Hrm... I'm still undecided.

Would you be mad if I voted for you?

[Aimee]

Gah, I'm still not 100% sure! I don't think either or you are scum, yet there is just something about you, pickem, that just makes me think you are the Godfather.

Pretty sure whoever I vote for, I will be wrong. Which isn't good.

[Aimee]

Gah, I'm still not 100% sure! I don't think either or you are scum, yet there is just something about you, pickem, that just makes me think you are the Godfather.

Pretty sure whoever I vote for, I will be wrong. Which isn't good.

Shanba left the cop in as WIFOM.

We all knew he would be investigating you that night, and after HJ/HH got an innocent(on you and BM) all this GF stuff is focused around you/BM, while he just sat back and let us go after each other.

But so were you. You didn't say one thing about the BM wagon until today when you said I got BM lynched to save my ass.

[Aimee]

Then why didn't you say anything?

[Aimee]

Why worried about going after me?

And was it too hard to post a simple little one line message? It sounds like strategic lurking to me.

[Aimee]

Why worried about going after me?

And was it too hard to post a simple little one line message? It sounds like strategic lurking to me.

I thought you were scum, that's why I was going after you.


Strategic lurking????

Sorry I don't just vote somebody and sit there and don't do anything else really.


There were like 20 pages in Big Love in like 3 fucking days, sorry for not posting here.

But you could have said something - voicing your displeasure would have been more town.

Also, if you were so busy with your other games, why didn't you say anything?

[Aimee]

Right, I've heard enough. I think I have made up my mind now.

[Aimee]

I hope to God I am making the right decision.

[Aimee]

vote: pickemgenius

[Aimee]

[Aimee]

pickem, please don't kill me.

[Aimee]

Also, I know I badly messed up, but Shanba did play well.

[Aimee]

I agree with Patrick's comments. I'll just add my congratulations to the scum and to Shanba in particular, and assure Aimee I don't blame her at all for her choice.

I <3 ma Ripley.

Also, as a side-note, why did everyone find me so scummy on days 3 and 4?!