Mini 451 - Totally Awesome Mafia, Game Over

[NabakovNabakov]

Is it a (singular) Papaya or a(rnold) Papaya?

And

Vote: Off the Mark

for not having Mario as his avatar anymore.

But

Unvote:

for replacing him with Dave Chappelle.

[NabakovNabakov]

You newbies need to not be so jittery. It's 3 votes, you're not going anwhere. Chill.

But seriousy, are you scum? My role says you have to tell me.

lol, and what role would this be then?

I beleive that role would be Confessional Priest

@NabakovNabakov

Are you a stalker or something? You know way too much about me.

Yeah, I guess that is a bit of a coincidence. It was just some random game I decided to read through while bored. But I know that meta-gaming isn't cool. Your slate is as clean as anybody's.

[NabakovNabakov]

Just like to confirm my

unvote

for Off the Mark. Not being Mario is no reason for somebody to get lynched...

But neither is being absent:

We haven't heard anything from this guy, except for his intial random vote, so I'm going to Vote: hjallti just to get him talking.

Maybe it's just because I feel it's my duty to post something most times I check the thread, but I always see long absences not as lurking but as just not checking the thread (for whatever reason), so I'm always confused when people vote absentees to "get them talking" when they won't know they're being voted for anyway.

Even if somebody is lurking, voting them still does nothing. All you have on them is not having posted in a while (a charge that can generally be dropped as soon as they post), and only the very stupidest of towns lynches an absentee.

In any case, a polite request should be enough if you would like somebody's input (It'll do just as much as voting for them)
Therefore, I politely request that Aimee, Bobbyplump, crashtextdummie, The Highland Sage, Hjallti, and ~N9V~ please post their opinions on the stirring developments in this thread.

[NabakovNabakov]

Who still needs to vote now?

Does this seem kind of scummy to anybody else? It's in the best interests of the town for us to withold our votes until were damn sure that someone's mafia (excepting the traditional few pages of random votes and joke votes to spark conversation). Voting just so we can say we voted can set somebody up to be hammered real quick.

I know I would be in the Not Voting column if the mod would just pick up my

Unvote:

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm going to have to agree with Stewie's reasons 1-4 that Nekka-Lucifer's behavior has been a bit fishy. His song and dance with OTM (posts 39-44) where N-L decides OTM is mafia for being too townie. Then he decides he's actually townie. Then he decides that, well shucks, he must be town too as a result (all in under 1 1/2 hours) just seems odd.

I'll

FOS: Nekka-Lucifer

but I at least want to give crashtextdummie and hjallti a chance to evaluate their random/joke votes before I vote the guy.

Oh, and whether or not voting for absentees is a fallacy, a scum tactic, neither, or both, it's definitely bad for the town. Don't do it.

[NabakovNabakov]

First off, (and this is directed primarly at N-L) it's time for a friggin' grammar lesson:

Three periods in a row (...) constitutes and ellipsis. Not 4. Not 5. The only official application of the ellipsis is to symbolize that a portion of text has been omitted from a direct quote in a scholarly paper. This application has been widened to include trail ins, trail outs, and pauses in dialogue (or prose which is meant to be read as dialogue). The abundance of ellipses and ellipsis look-alikes I have been seeing just look 1) Silly and 2) Suspicious, because an ellipsis is used to symbolize an omission, and only a mafioso would have any need for that. The ellipsis is a valid grammatical construct, just go easy on it.

I'm sorry for ranting, but I was really starting to feel for the period key on Nekka-Lucifer's keyboard.

And to add some worthwhile content to the post:

I think his defense regarding being a total noob holds to a point. His behavior during this entire game had been distinctly newbie (dude can't even use an ellipsis), but that's no reason to let him off the hook. He could just be a clueless townie, or he could be a clueless scum, OR he could be a very smart scum trying to lead us all on.

Time might just tell....................

[NabakovNabakov]

Mod:

Could we have a prod on Hjallti and CrashTextDummie?
They both random-voted Nekka-Lucifer (their only post), and it would be nice to see if they want their votes to stick.

WOW, 4 votes? HUGE FoS: Whoever votes me next!!

Bandwagoning should only be frowned upon when it's suspiciously quick or lacking justification. If the town is going to function at all, somebody has to place the 5th/6th/and 7th votes.

Also, forget not that Hjallti/CTD's votes were random and are still there because they haven't checked in.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^^
Or maybe it's just because he called you a dork?



The dude really only has 4 posts in this thread (1 per page) and the past couple, oddly, have dealt with lurking (as well as proving how much better he is than us).

Lowell, it is ill advised to be propelling stones when your house appears to be constructed of a quite delicate material.

[NabakovNabakov]

I guess you'll just have to page back to know where "^^^" is pointing to.

I've been on top of the past 3 pages and it's starting to creep me out.

[NabakovNabakov]

@OTM: I think the scumminess N-L was referring to in that post was this:

Mod:

Could we have a prod on Hjallti and CrashTextDummie?
They both random-voted Nekka-Lucifer (their only post), and it would be nice to see if they want their votes to stick.

I didn't vote randomly.

He was just emphasizing the fact that CTD's vote was with no evidence and no justification, yet he says it wasn't random.

The fact that Nabokov said something doesn't make it true.

Excuse me, but I beg to differ.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^^Way to take all the fun out of The Princess Bride
And OTM was right when he said I was just joking with you. I'll admit that I'm fallible.............................................but only sometimes.


@Hjallti: Ok man, that's cool. Now that we know you can't post on weekends, you should get harrased for it far less, but using an entire post (your first really substantial post) on defending yourself looks suspicious. I'm more interested in what you have to say about

other

people in the game.


@Nekka-Lucifer, why did you vote Off The Mark instead of Lowell? OTM may have been grasping at straws, but Lowell just jumped in afterwards without even putting effort into it. If you were going to vote one of them, why the one actually seems (emphasis on seems) to care about catching scum rather than the guy who just hops his vote?

Vote: Lowell

for phoning it in and hopping repeatedly.

[NabakovNabakov]

@Off The Mark: I think this is where you first unveiled your N-L+Hjallti theory

Also, he unvotes N-L and changes it to an FOS. This could easily be two scum here. He initially "random" voted N-L to create distance, but when pressure mounted he backed off his vote to "reevaluate". I'm very interested to see what Hjallti has to say later today or tomorrow. I wouldn't bet on this 2-scum scenario being true quite yet, I'm just saying it is possible

I have to say I'm a little surprised you're asking folks to weigh in on this. It's a complete castle in the air if I ever saw one:
You think Nekka-Lucifer is scum because of erratic posting and noobish behavior. (more on this later)
You think Hjallti is scum because he didn't post for a while and when he did, he removed a random vote. Lurking can be pretty conclusively ruled out because the mod backed him up on his excuse, and I don't see how removing a

random

vote in light of 5 new pages of evidence counts as a scum tell. He saw that an apparent innocent was about to be lynched and decided not to be part of it. Your whole argument against Hjallti rests in N-L being scum.
And that's the thing I don't get. You have fixed somewhere in your head that Nekka-Lucifer is 100% homegrown, accept-no-substitutes mafia, and it is obvious that this assumption, which I happen to disagree with, drives the whole thing. Since you seem to have time on your hands, I ask this of you: make a full case on Nekka-Lucifer. Most of his posts have already been picked over, so your job shouldn't be that hard. Condense him into a single post and prove to me that he is scum. Make a concerted argument, not just: "He's scum because this sounds suspicious" or "that's a total scum tell."

Nekka-Lucifer is either a very raw townie or a very smart mafia. I have a sneaking suspicion you'll go into compiling his posts thinking one way and come out thinking the other.

Good Luck

[NabakovNabakov]

@ Off the Mark, the "I respect your opinion but think you are scum," which you paraphrased from:

I respect Off the Mark seeing me as pro-town (which I am) but this post makes me think he's scum.

Could be read two ways.
1: (your way) A townie has no reason to respect the opinion of someone he thinks is scum. This is bad logic and bad logic = scum.
2: He is saying it is a good thing that OTM has finally come around and realized he was town, but maybe for that very reason, OTM might be scum. Nothing was really said in absolutes.

Even if interpretation 1 is correct and Nekka was using craplogic, I think by now it's fairly obvious that Nekka-Lucifer rarely thinks before he posts and fallacies (whether scummy or just bumbling) are all over his posts. Why harp on this one? It certainly doesn't seem the slam-dunk you say it is. Once again, it was the slip-up of either a noob mafia or a noob townie, and I'm still inclined to believe townie.

You definitely look overzealous, and that could be cause for suspicion. For now, I'm keeping my vote with Lowell, but IGMEOY.


@CrashTextDummie, would you care to explain what evidence you based your original vote on that seems so irrefutable? Enlighten us, please

[NabakovNabakov]

Hey, respect doesn't always come from being a good guy. If the bad guy does his job well, he deserves repect too. Maybe Nekka just thought you were playing it pretty smooth for a mafioso.

But Stewie is kinda right. I shouldn't help N-L out so much. It could look real bad for me if you lynch him and he's scum.

[NabakovNabakov]

Hey CDT, can you send me the feed from whatever crystal ball you're getting all your information from, or could you at least clue us into your thought process?

[NabakovNabakov]

Of course advertising other mafia websites isn't allowed. Mafiascum could

lose business

! (Please note intended sarcasm)

And CTD, I agree that you aren't technically bandwagoning on N-L because you were one of the first to vote for him, but as far as I can see, that vote was random. You have apparently decided that you just got lucky with your random vote and actually voted for someone you think is scum. All I want to know is why you chose not to remove your random vote (almost the same action as voting in my book)

[NabakovNabakov]

^^^

Your post was post 20, N-L had made 3 posts before that. One random voted for me and said something possibly incriminating "No offense if yer a townie..." and the other two were dicussing A Papaya's name.

I've pretty much given up on defending Nekka and can understand if you feel he's scummy, but I have trouble believing that 20 posts into the game, you were positive as to who should be lynched. So no, I guess I'm not comprehending how it was an informed vote.

[NabakovNabakov]

N-L, just some clarification, N-N usually refers to me


@Bobby: I think that your suspicions of Hjallti are sound. He could be scum worried that the bandwagon will go flacid with two folks out of town, or he could be a townie who has become convinced by N-L's poor yet persistent defense of himself. However, I wonder what exactly you're suspicous of Amiee for. It seems perfectly reasonable not to vote for somebody before a long absence. Your vote is stuck there even if you would have removed it otherwise and you could unwillingly participate in a lynch. If, when Aimee comes back, she still thinks N-L is suspicous enough for a lynch, there will be a lynch, no harm, no foul, just a bit of downtime. It seems to me that cautious play such as that only favors the town.

[NabakovNabakov]

As long as the mod chooses to recognize that detail, then this post might mean something.

OTM, you said that Lowell and me were the only ones left with anything to actually discuss (because the only action that could be possible right now is to discuss N-L, I guess), Lowell obviously breezed pass discussion in favor of what he hoped would be decisive action. You might be able to say that I'm not changing my vote to N-L because I'd like it to stay on Lowell, and you'd be right. He tried to use some throwaway excuse instead of logic (or even Craplogic) to put the hammah on a player I still can't figure out why we're lynching. N-L is stupid, flakey, and possibly a detriment to the town, but that doesn't make him scum. One thing I've noticed from playing and reading games is that when it comes to deciding noob-town or noob-scum, the noob overshadows everything else. You just can't tell. We're taking a shot in the dark here and we have only a 1/4-1/3 chance of hitting the target.

But I guess that's what the day 1 lynch is all about, a shot in the dark. It's just that it feels like we're taking the shot with our toes. I'm sure somebody (OTM, Lowell, a suicidal N-L) is going to post the hammer sometime soon, and I'm glad I got to say my 2-cents.

[NabakovNabakov]

Haha, right.

And I don't think I've ever seen someone give up and NOT get lynched.

And how many times have they been scum? (Just curious)

[NabakovNabakov]

At least you have a year on N-L

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm kind of torn between ideas of vig and SK. The fact that a player was stabbed definitely indicates an SK, but why would the SK or the mafia go after Lowell? He was generally lurkerish and unhelpful and put the hammer on an innocent townie. I was personally convinced he was scum and would have voted for him soon after day 2 started. It doesn't seem like good scum strategy to NK somebody likely to be lynched anyway. I could totally see a vig thinking he/she had a sure thing with Lowell (even though it's sometimes considered bad behavior to vig the first night)

Oh, and OTM. SK could equal smaller mafia. Why are we so sure it's three?

[NabakovNabakov]

@CTD: I'm sick of playing charades here. Any time you vote, you provide no explanation for your actions. Any time you are asked for an explanation, you either ignore it or insist that there was some unseen reasoning behind your vote. The best defense you could give for your vote on Nekka was "I voted him before eveybody else" Voting without talking hurts the town far far more than talking without voting. I'm seeing your behavior as very scummy right now simply because it's so damn mysterious.

Vote:CrashTextDummie

[NabakovNabakov]

@OTM: One thing that distressed me was this:

This post also seems scummy to me now. I didn't have any confidence at all that Nekka was scum. But you were displaying confidence here. Makes me think perhaps it was fake confidence.

You were very unsure about Nekka, yet you voted for him and encouraged others to vote for him!? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is either poor play or scum attempting to get some distance from a lynch he drove.

That being said, @Bobby it sounds to me like you're voting for OTM for making a pro-town argument and showing sound judgement. Do you have anything else to back it up (besides being the conductor on the N-L train)?

Still waiting for CDT to post

Last thing: I agree that Aimee has just as much chance of being anything as anybody else does. The mod extended the deadline to ensure anonymity and now we're trying to twist it around. Just drop it.

[NabakovNabakov]

I think everyone voting Nekka (besides the scum of course) went through that see-saw a few times. I was just confused by your post because it didn't seem to match up with the way you had acted Day 1, and that's suspicious. I still think it was poor play to vote on such a weak conviction, but when you say you didn't have any conviction (when your posting on Day 1 had a lot) there's a very scummy disconnect there.

Oh well, I guess your explanation makes sense. Just this time (especially now that we have some solid info), lets really think before we lynch.

Also, "Howdy Pickemgenius!" (

Mod:

Is it kosher to ask when and why Papaya requested a replacement?)

[NabakovNabakov]

Mod:

Prod on CrashText Dummie and ~NV9~ bitte.

@PEG: Your overall analysis seems sound and succinct. A few things

I think OTM is at least semi-correct when he says that hindsight is obscuring things a bit. Things may seem clear now, but they were confusing back in Day 1. My argument for N-L was based at least partially on gut-feeling/experience too (thanks for the props on 143 btw, took forever to get it to read right). But hindsight does not excuse everything.

Now that I read your analysis, NV does seem more scummy. His posts always sort of passed under my radar. I'll reread with him in mind.

Oh, and your use of ATM in refrence to me was at first unsettling, but then I realized that it meant At the Moment (and I wasn't thinking Automatic Teller Machine either)

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ Of course an essential part of playing mafia is to identify scummy behavior, but it is my thinking that picking over current posts for possible slip-ups or motives becomes less and less important as solid information is produced by lynches and nightkills. During Day 1, all we had to go on were our feelings and our posts; nobody could be truely blamed for voting for N-L because we didn't know he was town. Now we do, and that changes our perspective greatly. Speculations as to scummy behavior are still important, but we should rely on our solid information first.

In this vein, I do not ask ~NV9~ to explain the "scummines" of his posts, but rather his the path of his thoughts on Day 1. Please do not attack the question (ala post 326) just answer:
-Why did you vote Nekka-Lucifer?
-Were you certain he was scum or did you just want a lynch to gather information(or speed up the game)?
-Did you feel like you were joining a wagon and did you consider the consequences of that?
-Do you think there's anyone who might also have to explain themselves?

Maybe it's just me, but I greatly prefer it when things like this are out in the open. In my opinion, it's easy for the scum to hide behind posts that look townie, but they can't fake the way they thought through the day.

[NabakovNabakov]

Mod:

I beleive some votes aren't being counted. I know I voted for CTD and so did OTM. I don't have time to check the rest of the thread right now, but there could be more.

[NabakovNabakov]

looking forward to CTD's post

QFT

I've never seen a post somebody worked 72 hours straight on. It should be a masterpiece.


Also, ~NV9~: Try as I might, I can't understand your last post. It seems like you were responding to my post, yet you didn't answer any of my questions. You just said that lynching random people is bad and told me to "make sure that what you type is what you mean." Please don't think that will be enough to dismiss my questions.

[NabakovNabakov]

Hey CTD, I'm glad you're having fun over there in Board Games Mafia, but it would be nice if you posted here.

Please

[NabakovNabakov]

Urgh

The best way for a game to stall is for those under attack to just stop posting. It completely kills discussion.

~NV9~ please answer the questions posed to you or make some sort of other defense

Mod:

Can you stick CTD's prod in the fireplace for a little bit before you poke him with it this time. If he's going to hide from the thread, we should probably just get a replacement.


Aimee, Stewie, it would be nice if you two chimed in too.

[NabakovNabakov]

Yaaay! It appears CTD has decided to actually join the discussion.

Unvote

, but my E continues to be OY for odd behavior on D1.


To adress the case against Papaya/Pickem:

I agree with what you posted about Papaya's vote hopping. It does seem suspicous. His case for Nekka and Hjallti being a scum-pair was also fairly silly.

However, some of the case seems to be clutching at straws. I don't see it as particuarlly suspicous that Papaya made an "oh crap" post after two townies turned up dead. It seems like a perfectly reasonable way to start the day (it would be equally suspicous if he just posted like nothing had happened). Also, because OTM was the most vocal player D1, it might seem to some like he lead the lynch. Papaya hadn't had your helpful analysis when he accused OTM.

In adressing pickem as the replacement, I have mixed feelings about him right now. His posts seem to be short and snappy, but that could be playstyle. I feel he has a point when he says it's difficult to get a read off D1. His argument with BP just seems silly. We should just lynch a killer today, and it doesn't matter which one. I have a hard time envisioning a situation in which we have to decide between lynching a confirmed mafia and a confirmed SK. One or the other would be fine with me.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ He did say he was working on other posts. Lets wait to see if they materialize before we get back on his case.

[NabakovNabakov]

@ CTD: I did comment on the deaths, in post 273 I speculated on SK v. Vig, and wondered who would want to NK Lowell.

Now where has NV9 gotten to?

[NabakovNabakov]

On vacation for the week (Sat-Sat). Access guaranteed, but opportunities to make use of it are not. Expect a couple short/sweet posts.

[NabakovNabakov]

Just assume that the mod has enough sense to not completely unbalance the game, but right now, there are too many variables up in the air to decide if this game is balanced strong town v. strong scum or weak town v. weak scum.

[NabakovNabakov]

Yup, Lowell could have been the mafia kill, but the same question holds: why would any anti-town faction want to kill somebody likely to be lynched the next day?

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ I'm not sure if I like those answers.

You lynched on a gut feeling because someone was getting emotional (a paradox in itself). You say that everybody else who pressured the lynch should answer for it, and you even admit that you thought there would be consequences, yet the best explanation you can provide is a vibe and the thirst for information. The tone of these answers feels defensive and berating, not at all helpful.

Major FOS: ~NV9~

For covering crap reasons for a lynch with a smokescreen.

[NabakovNabakov]

No one said you had to like answers for questions to be effective. A poorly answered question can be a goldmine of information.

[NabakovNabakov]

It seems like somebody decided to grow a pair while I was on vacation (still there, still Limited Access)

In order to explain why your vote was a pardox. You haven't been able to provide any better reasoning for your vote on N-L than "I just thought he was scum." If that isn't a "gut feeling," in my mind, it's close enough. To say that this feeling stemmed from N-L being too emotional, then you've just incriminated yourself (because if your last post was anything, it was emotional).

I am assuming that your third statement was meant to be heavily sarcastic (you forgot to add the sarcasm tags I'm afraid), but it is also incorrect. We

are

using the information from yesterday's lynch to catch scum by going through and grilling every person on the mislynch. Out of all of them, you have appeared the most scummy. Therefore, I have no qualms about my

Vote:~NV9~

However, the next person who would like to vote NV should think long and hard before they do, he is now at lynch -1.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ Yes, the risk of lynching our vig certainly exists if we decide to lynch NV, but judging by the quality of his claim and his play under pressure, I would say that risk is fairly small. At first I thought he was just a mafioso, but now that I've read CTD's analysis, I'm fairly convinced he's our SK. My vote stays where it is until he can make a post slightly more convincing than "fuck you." (of course, if a more certain opportunity to lynch scum were to arise, I'd be sure to take that as well)

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ OTM: This confuses the hell out of me. I'm usually pretty good with logical pretzels, but I'm having trouble with why this specifically incriminates him. (no problem with the other arguments though)

NV, I think that is a very poor explanation for why you unvoted me. I highly doubt/hope that I will not be lynched in the next three days, so your vote being on me without you to shepard it is not a concern. I think you were trying to reduce the amount of flak you were taking by removing a clearly OMGUS vote.

I really don't like the idea of leaving NV alive with assignments on who to kill. It seems like it would be incredibly easy for an SK to masqurade as a vig and keep the wool pulled over until it's too late.

IF

we were to do this, it would be absolutely essential that our cop investigates him to ensure he's really a vig, but that would leave the cop fully exposed. It seems like a lose-lose to me.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ Oh yeah, forgot that one. In that case, letting him pretend to vig would be even more of a folly.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ I guess investigation immunity is normal in SK's. However, that doesn't help them to hide as vigs (thought this one up in the shower) because they would be investigated and the result would be vanilla townie which is clearly not what they claimed (unless the mod decides to mess with the town).

@ OTM: Fair enough, it seems kind of shakey to me (calling scum because of word choice seems a bit nit-pickey). I think CTD might have set out a soild case against him initially, but Stewie's defense is also plausible. I would like to see CTD better explain the scumminess of Stewie's posts, and for Stewie to better explain his absolute convictions. It would also be nice to have a reread at some point, but I am not in the position to do so right now.

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ At this point, the only reason to vote him is if you truly belive he is scum. He has claimed and, apparently, posted his best defense, so there is no more need for pressure. (Though it would still be a good idea to wait for him to make another post in case he has something convincing waiting in reserve)

On a general note, your participation in this game seems to have been stripped to the bare bones. The best thing for you to do is not to make a decision about NV off on your own, it is to post your ideas in the thread to be checked over by everyone else. The town benefits more through a communal discussion with a communal decision than through isolated voting.

[NabakovNabakov]

Here's what confuses me:

I have essentially come to the conclusion that, if he is the SK, NV might have killed Lowell N1 in an attempt to build cred for a later claim as vig if it ever became necessary. However, at the start of D2, he was the first one to mention and push the idea of an SK . This seems counterintuitive, as an intelligent player (and a player would have to be at least fairly intelligent to recognize the value of killing an anti-town player N1) would not go shooting his mouth off about SK's if he actually

is

one.

That's one logical point for NV being a vig, but the ways in which he talks about there being an SK:

Shit, looks like mafia and SK.

Vote A Papaya

You seem over sincere about the lose.

Stabbing is usually the result of an SK kill.

No, cuz the SK is a lone player. That is if there is an SK.

seem more like a stupid SK than a vig trying to deflect attention from his work. All it really comes down to is whether or not I believe NV is smart enough to pull off the above ruse or dumb enough to telegraph SK to the whole town. There doesn't seem to be a middle option here, and paradoxically, if I decide that he is actually a smart player, the logical hole I discovered in the first paragraph would apply and he would most likely be vig, if I thought he was just dumb, then I we can be confident he's the SK.

Going back over the game as it concerns him and judging by the quality of his posting, his claim, and his defense under pressure, I feel more inclined towards "dumb" than anything else.

[NabakovNabakov]

I'd really like to vote BP right now, but I'm also keeping in mind that this could just be a ploy. If this setup has three mafia, then we're lynch-or-lose. (And we're still in a dangerous spot if there's only 2) Sorry for being paranoid here Pickem, but I'd like to leave things open to a counterclaim/discussion before I vote.

If you aren't a filthy liar, Good Job on catching scum!

[NabakovNabakov]

Al'right. I read over D2 and Papya did clear Hjallti pretty blatantly. First outright without explanation and then again by saying he could only see Hjallti as scum in connection with N-L. This is

probably

due to investigation, but it could have been honest analysis, and Pickem is just exploiting it now (once again, I apologize for my paranoia).

I'm pretty convinced, but not 100% yet. I want to hear what others think before we go to L-1 and other scum can come in to hammer.

[NabakovNabakov]

I could see a balanced game having 3 mafia and an SK. We were unlucky that NV killed a townie night one, but because the SK is an independant faction, he's just as likely to target scum as town (to eliminate competition or gain credibility on a vig claim). Also, a wealth of town power-roles can make up for a bunch of anti-town roles. I don't think we'll really know until after we lynch our second scum.

[NabakovNabakov]

@ BP: Why are you so focused on me as the scumbuddy? Because I'm considering the claim of an (as of yet) uncounterclaimed cop? Do you have

any

other evidence to go on? I think I'm being pretty cautious going into this because my first instinct was to just drop a vote on you and be done with it.

I'm still going to be cautious here and wait for CTD's input (though I doubt he'll be defending you too much since he got the read that led Pickem to investigate), but consider my vote as good as there if something

very

convincing doesn't pop up.

[NabakovNabakov]

BP and Pickem, neither of you are helping your case by bickering like children. Both of you are using stupid, general arguments to try to prove the other is scummy, and it just isn't doing it for me.

I'm still heavily inclined towards Pickem because he still has that Cop thing going for him. I guess all the evidence he needs is in the first post of the day, but crap-editing posts and playing "Yuh-Huh, Nuh-Uh" is not helping to solidify the case. Pickem, I want to believe you, because that would mean we've caught scum and we have an active Cop working for us, but you're making it really freaking hard.

[NabakovNabakov]

@OTM: IDK... if I was a cop who wanted to present a guilty claim, I would scour the thread first looking for concrete evidence to back it up. If your guy is scum, there has to be

something

out there that proves it. If you can lay out a PBPA on him then just say "oh, btw, I'm also the cop and he came up guilty last night," I think you'd have a better case. So far, the only evidence we've seen came from you.

But that's just my way of looking at it, and Pickem seems to have more of an *ahem* "direct" playstyle than I do, so it makes sense that he fits your model better.

Mod:

It might be a bit early for a prod, but I don't think this thread is going anywere substantial until we hear from CTD.

[NabakovNabakov]

Pickem: Thank you for posting a case. I'm not going to complain about it being short, because you're right, BP didn't post all that much (and even less that was significant) and that in itself is inherently scummy.

BP: Thank you for posting a rebuttal, but most of your points seem to rely on us needing to know what you were feeling at the time. That hasn't actually been documented in thread, so we don't actually know if you were fed up with game pacing or frustrated with N-L's newbishness. Not good.

Still definitely leaning towards BP=Scum. Still waiting on CTD's input.

Mod:

Still waiting on CTD. Has enough time passed for a prod proper?

[NabakovNabakov]

Not that I don't respect your opinion, but the main reason I kept asking was because I didn't want anyone's opinion (or claim) to go unoted before we jumped to a lynch. It had so much weight because it was the last one.

Now that everybody's had their say, I will

Vote: Bobbyplump

. If he had anything significant to claim or substantial to defend, he would have done it earlier.

*sniff*
My first hammer
*sniff*

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm here (short night), and I have no qualms over dropping this hammer right after Stewie has a chance to post. Last words and all that.

Keep it up Pickem; you really know how to... Pick 'em! (lolihatemyself)

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm not sure about the claim. I've never heard of the "Paranoid Gun Shop Owner" but it just sounds like a paraphrase for Bomb + Miller.

Bomb almost makes sense, because we're in a game with two killing factions (at least at the beginning), so blowing one of them up could help the balance, but I've never heard of a Bomb combined with a Miller (though it's not too much of a stretch). I'm not a master of game balance/mechanics by any measure yet, so others can feel free to correct me on these points.

But the claim and the result aren't everything. Stewie's play also looks scummy, but I have a feeling that it has yet to be presented from an objective standpoint today. I'll do a quick re-read a bit later and come back with my thoughts.

[NabakovNabakov]

One interesting observation I made during a re-read is this:

Of all the people who were on the Nekka-Lucifer bandwagon (our only mislynch) there are only two left alive: OTM and Stewie.

Both of them played very different roles on that wagon. OTM was the flaming face shouting in Dolby Digital Surround Sound for N-L's head. Stewie was the man behind the curtain (and I have to give postmortem props to CTD for that very important catch). If you guys can follow my shitty Wizard of Oz metaphor, you can see where I'm going with this.

Stewie was the manipulative man behind the curtain. At first I was prepared to write it off as a case of perspective. If you already have a result on Stewie as scum, you're inclined to see all his actions as scummy in some way. However, when you go back and read with that perspective, it works

too

well to be discounted to the realm of circular logic.

At the risk of not getting a kickass pair of ruby slippers I will follow the pattern established yesterday (Pickem comes up with a guilty result, OTM bandwagons far too quickly for polite company, and Nabakov provides the Hammer after actually thinking things through) and

Vote: Stewie

But just so I have a chance to say this before Night falls and my existance is once again up in the air (or the game outright ends): A Note on Off the Mark.

Notice that, in my opening paragraph, I didn't add the qualifier "so one of them must be our scum!" I firmly beleive that at least one of them (Stewie)

is

scum, but that does not absolve OTM. Something else that doesn't absolve OTM, being incredibly vocal in lynching a townie; WIFOM is a double edged sword. Another thing that doesn't absolve OTM, telling us that he was uncertain about lynching N-L

after

we had lynched him. Remember that the man behind the curtain and the burning face were one and the same. If the game is still on and we're both alive, I might just have some strong words for OTM on D4. If the game is over and we won, yes I will be accepting pats on the back for hammering both scum. (If we lost, then I'm very very sorry).



Oh yeah,

Hammah!!

[NabakovNabakov]

Fair enough

Vote: No Lynch

But don't forget the possibility of an investigation immune GF. I could totally imagine Aimee as a player who

knows

she's investigation immune, and therefore decides to lurk the game to a win.

[NabakovNabakov]

You know what, let's save us all some time. Since I know I'm not going to be able to convince Pickem (and Pickem would be key) that there's a GF tomorrow when OTM turns up remarkably innocent, I will Claim: Mafia and

Unvote, Vote:NabakovNabakov

I thought nobody would protect Pickem, then I thought nobody would catch that we could No Lynch today, then I thought that I might be able to call GF. Pickem had me every step of the way. Well played.

I have no idea how 3 mafia and an SK managed to screw things up so badly. I guess this is kinda like taking the ball and going home, but in my defense, my bat broke a long time ago.

*sigh*
Sorry Stewie. Sorry BP. I thought I had 'em.

Off to the queue.

[NabakovNabakov]

Why? It's not like I did a single scummy thing (besides nightkills of course) I defended the VI, caught the SK, and hammered my two buddies. It's my opinion that I lost because I was too afraid to give off tells and therefore allowed myself to be shoehorned into this crappy endgame. (That, and you played extremely well as Cop)

Bah! I never liked all the killing anyway. Why couldn't you townies have just payed your extortion money?

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ Would have gone with that too. You have no idea how many times a scum brought up killing Aimee, it just never got done (and it was usually my fault).

Either way,

Would

one

of those lazy bastards just hammer already!?"

Jesus!

[NabakovNabakov]

Exactly

We always thought we could just play her off as scummy for lurking and get a lynch out of it, but "things" came up you lucky bastard.

My primary goal after you claimed cop (since I couldn't kill you) was to always keep somebody around for you to be suspicious of other than me. That's why I targeted you last night. If there wasn't a doc, cool. If there was, then there would be two people other than me and you, and only one would be an innocent. I was hoping nobody would pick up on even town + no lynch= free investigation. If I NK'd Aimee or OTM, it was a guessing game, if I killed the person you didn't investigate, I was screwed (FTR, it probably would have been OTM. I was going for a fake-out there)

To summarize, I suck at night tactics.

[NabakovNabakov]

Oh yeah, I guess that would be a bit of a tell.

[NabakovNabakov]

OTM, that sounds like a pretty powerful role. As all this stuff comes out, I realize how little of a chance I had in the endgame. I should have just gone for it and counterclaimed pickem on D3.

I think it's kind of funny that

only

the power-roles survived. You guys won, but your entire town died in the process. (Props to CTD for being the last surviving townie)

[NabakovNabakov]

^^I only mentioned a GF to see if anyone would bite. They didn't.

[NabakovNabakov]

I already admitted to being a horrible night strategist, OK?

Now where in the bloody hell is Panzerjager? Is he having trouble tying the noose correctly or something?

[NabakovNabakov]

Wait? Survivor comes up guilty?

Dammit Pickem, if only you had investigated OTM instead.