Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Thesp]

Wow. Almost all of you look scummy. But fortunately, I waded through all the wrong scum tells to find the scum for you all, since you haven't done it, despite having 14 pages of posts to work from.

Vel-Rahn Koon is is scumbuddy with Vryklan. John is the Serial Killer. Guardian is flamingly town, it burns my eyes how obvious his townness exudes from him. Peter Venkman or Occult are probably scum (though not together). I can't figure out which one, but we should have time to lynch them both. I'm mildly unimpressed by Avinyl.

Unvote: Occult, Vote: John

, since killin the SK is probably better this early than killing mafia. We can get Vel-Rahn Koon, Vryklan and Peter Venkman/Occult after that. Heck, if we have a vig, we could win by the end of N2.

[Thesp]

@Thesp - How on Earth did you determine all that in one go?

My niece believes in my powers. You should too.

[Thesp]

Lastly, your neice's arrogance doesn't sit well with me.

I will tell her that. I bet you just made a 5 year old cry.

[Thesp]

On the other hand, thanks for answering my questions and showing proof of your accusations. *Sarcassm*

My pleasure! For what it's worth, I am giving an indirect answer to a playstyle question Guardian posed in this game. 8)

[Thesp]

Thesp, care to explain anything? Just stating things as fact isn't really the best strategy...

I respectfully disagree.

[Thesp]

question on general theory: is it sometimes better to not call out a scum so they won't be more careful, and then to point out fishy things after many slipups, or should I/we point out stuff as soon as we see it?

How prophetic.

I can definitely see how BOTH Peter and Occult would be scum, especially Peter.

If they're both scum, I have serious reservations as to them being scum on the same team - I have them as dissociated in my notes.

The thing I'd have to really disagree with is John as not pro-town. Why in hell would he defend me so much if not pro-town?

To gain brownie points. Defending townies isn't a tell as to townieness or scumness, in my experience,

especially

early.

Thesp/all: thoughts on Paradoxscum? I could definitely see P&P scumpair, much more obviously than I can see V&V.

I didn't see him as notable. I'll be happy to review.

Mustafa has contributed very little to the game, how about him too?

I think you've said it all.

I also hate Thesp's playstyle of pointing fingers, with no proof of anthing.
since avi will almost undoubtably replaced in my opinion, ill Unvote, Vote: Thesp untill he tells us why im an SK, and not just cause a 5 year old said so.

I'm intrigued by your decision to vote for me based on a playstyle, while showing no indication of actually

thinking

I'm scum. That's a scum mentality.

But giving us no reason is a very anti-town play.

I respectfully disagree with this. Just because it annoys you does not mean it's bad. I think the responsibility is upon you to show:
(1) Since you think that failing to give reasoning is anti-town, please show reasoning that justifies your position that failing to provide reasoning is anti-town; and
(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the

opposite

. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action

X

, even if

X

is unintentionally harmful.)

I don't think you'll be able to. Of course, you're also welcome to work on the gut feeling of the above, but please understand me when I continue to assert you are incorrect.

I believe he needs to justify his accusations. He can keep them to himself if he wants but he's not going to get any support like that.

Okay. I don't mind this approach in the least, especially since I may or may not be trying to drum up support.

Instead of questioning way he thinks he has this game down, you basicly asked if he could complete this game in 10 days.

We can do this if we have a vig and we turbo-vote.

Seems like scum, not because it supports someone I suspect(I don't even suspect guardian that much, just more than anyone else), but primarily since i don't see why you wouldn't give your reasoning.

That's fine with me, maybe even optimal.

If you've just read the topic you should be able to see that several of us are suspicious of his activity. How about filling us in? Don't you want to help him and us by preventing us from lynching someone wrongly?

Oh, I missed the votecount where Guardian was at lynch -1. I will double check for that.

I think it's a very scummy thing to do, to just casually remark that someone is totally innocent in your mind. It seems like something that would only be done to

1. Throw a little doubt our way. Just enough to make a difference but not be totally obvious

or

2. Try to gain someone else's trust(see directly below VVV)

How would (1) obtain? Also, does it look like I've gained anyone's trust? I'm uncertain that my technique is conducive to trust-forming.

Also, I <3 Occult. I'm beginning to think we should lynch Peter Venkman before him.

[Thesp]

Yeah? And actively lurking seems scummy, no?

It does, it just didn't seem to outweigh the others to me. It's certainly worth keeping an eye on.

If you are town, don't you want town to lynch people you are sure are scum?

I do. I'll work on support later.

Interesting bit there, it's fine with you that he doesn't understand why you wouldn't give reasoning. This means you're fine with his suspicion of you.

I'm not sure I see how you draw that conclusion.

Why <3 Occult?

He gets me. He's trying to decipher whether or not I'm scum (as well as the people I pegged), rather than saying, "Thesp scary! Ack!" That seems to me to be more of a pro-town response.

You came up with quite a lot of bold statement. Basically you walked in, started pointing fingers to assign antagonist roles. When questioned for reason, you flat out refused to give any. This confuses your bog-standard town.

Better than confuses - it evokes reactions. I think it gives more

raw

data to work from.

Anti-town = Good lynch

The last statement is true because at later stage of the game, it is detrimental to have an anti-town townie. If it is to get to lylo situation, a anti-town townie could throw a town side completely off. The bottom line is this. Lynching anti-towns should be up there with lynching all liars.

I disagree with your assessment.

By the way, do you realize that question 2) you've thrown at me is an utter thick concoction of WIFOM?

Logical rampage time.

WIFOM bears a fairly consistent pattern. Its standard for is as follows:

(1) Player

X

recognizes that scum are less likely to exhibit

Y

.
(2)

X

knowlingly and deliberately exhibits

Y

.
(3)

X

asserts his innocence on the basis of exhibiting

Y

. (If I were scum, I wouldn't do...)

Now, let's look at the question which you are asserting is "an utter thick concoction of WIFOM".

(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the opposite. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action X, even if X is unintentionally harmful.)

I'm a little uncertain as to where this utter thick concoction is. Is it in the part where I ask you to back up your assertion that the action I took is in fact indicative of me being scum? Or is it the question where I asked "often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not?", in which I am not asserting my own townieness, but instead am denying the equivalence of scum-ness and anti-townness (to which you yourself have assented)? Or is it something else I'm missing? Because at this point, I'm going to have to otherwise assume this is one of those, "Thesp scary! Boo! WIFOM! Boo!" arguments.

FOS: Raffles.

due to the fact that you wrongly said a quote was by me, which seems to me, your trying to dicredit me, feuadian slip or not.

Would you like a ladder to help with that one?

QFT.

[Thesp]

If you really want to know, the argument you presented is a variant of too townie/scummy argument. It's a branch of WIFOM, and you laid it out in plain daylight.

I'm really, really not seeing this. Can you show me how? Feel free to be patronizing in your explanation.

So, um, let's wagon Peterscum?

I could go with this.

ebwop: Or lynch me, confirm me as town, you know I trust thesp for good reasons, you know I really think Peter is scum etc...

This is a bad reason to lynch anyone, because genuine townies can be incorrect, and it's far preferable to lynch someone more likely to be scum.

I apologize, i had internet problems and then a friend of mine died in a traffic accident. I will reread and post soon.

God be with you and yours. Welcome back.

Interesting responses to Thesp's initial post, esp. from Raffles, John, and to a lesser extent, PZ.

I was thinking the

exact

same thing.

[Thesp]

No one's anywhere near close to lynch yet.

Peter, what's your take on all this?

Good job avoiding the question. I've re-printed the question for your convenience.

If you really want to know, the argument you presented is a variant of too townie/scummy argument. It's a branch of WIFOM, and you laid it out in plain daylight.

I'm really, really not seeing this. Can you show me how? Feel free to be patronizing in your explanation.

So, um, let's wagon Peterscum?

So, um, let's lynch Peterscum?

So, um, that's really not helpful at all.

I disagree.

...and for the love of god,

WHY

have they been doing this? Everything that happens on day one is a WIFOM argument. No single town player has any reason to pat another on the back, or say things like "So and So makes a good point." Until we have some voting records and confirmations no town player has good reason to trust anyone else.

I see you said something, but all I hear is, "Boo! Boo! Be afraid!" without actual contribution to the discussion.

[Thesp]

I have contributed. A lot.

Why are you trying to control the pace of this game?

Goof for you. Keep it up, rather than resting on your laurels. I'm trying to control the pace of the game (to use your words) because I get the best results that way, and find out a heck of a lot more than sitting back and doing nothing. And being aggressive is waaaaaaaaay more fun.

Sorry, missed it. But speak for yourself. You never said why you disagree with this
[quote="Raffles]Anti-town = Good lynch

The last statement is true because at later stage of the game, it is detrimental to have an anti-town townie. If it is to get to lylo situation, a anti-town townie could throw a town side completely off. The bottom line is this. Lynching anti-towns should be up there with lynching all liars.

statement.

(2)

Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the opposite. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not?

Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action X, even if X is unintentionally harmful.)

What you are telling me there in red is this.

-Scums can be more logical than a town. Therefore if you see a illogical town, don't automatically assume he is a scum. He could be town.

This is unacceptable as the argument here is one of "Too scummy" argument. This argument gives scums free reign to spout out logic that is about as watertight as a net, which case you would have no idea how to hunt out a scum. Speaking of which, I have a question. If this is still your theory, how do you propose to hunt out a scum?

[/quote]
Anti-town doesn't always equal good lynch because, in some real sense, you don't have evidence they will continue to be anti-town. Suppose you have someone who has claimed cop, and is, by some game-state, significantly more likely to be town than scum. N1 they investigate Bob, and get an innocent. N2, they investigate Bob again, because they're certain it's a one-shot investigation immunity Bob has. Now, selecting Bob as a N2 nightchoice is demonstrably anti-town, as it seems we're using it here. Would you then argue that the claimed cop should be lynched, even if he's significantly more likely to be town?

Also, I don't have any problem with your quoted argument, "Scums can be more logical than a town. Therefore if you see a illogical town, don't automatically assume he is a scum. He could be town." I suspect if you took the inverse of this approach, you'd have lynched far more townies than you ought to have. However, note that supplying reasoning and being logical are not equivalent, and my argument was largely based on the

supplying

of reasoning.

In some real sense, it does seem absurd to me to make arguments on who is scum based who is perceived to be more helpful to the town (and converseley who is more harmful),

especially

when there are demonstrable indicators (scumtells, if you will) which are far better indicators. Remember, scumtells are based on the premise that scum are more likely to exhibit certain characteristics than townie do. If you can reliably discover what traits scum are more likely to exhibit (and conversely, what town are more likely to exhibit), you can more reliably predict what players are scum and which ones are not. Along this lines, if scum are significantly more likely to exhibit

X

,

even if

X

can be conceived as being helpful to the town

, then players who exhibit

X

ought to be treated with suspicion. Your argument would deny this useful tool.

I placed it upon you to show that your method was more indicative of discovering scum players. To this post, you have utterly and miserably failed to do so. Accordingly, I am not giving any credence to your argument, and I don't think anyone else should either.

[Thesp]

Here goes another playstyle post against thesp. sorry.

your aware that you are trying to conrtol the game and you admit it as well. unforutuantly, i wont allow someone to control a game. that is about the most dangerous thing you can do in a mafia game in my opinion.

I don't mind people taking an interest in the game. I encourage it. Of course, I haven't heard anything much from you besides "Thesp bad!". Perhaps you'll pardon me if I respectfully disagree.

Thesp, in case you are getting worried, I did a whole big rebuttal than the damn thing logged me out. I'm going to bed now, I'll do it tommorrow.

I've had that happen many a time. You may want to try on or two things:

1) before posting, hit Ctrl-A (selects all text), then Ctrl-C (copies it), and/or
2) use Notepad when making large posts.

I've saved much time averting danger in such a way. Hope it helps! And I'll be happy to patiently wait your self-discovery of how wrong you are. (I'm really having trouble conceptualizing how you are going to argue against the usefulness of scum tells, which is how I perceive the argument.)

[Thesp]

So... Thesp... still voting on John because you think he is the SK?

-Peter

I think he's scum. SK is a distinct possibility.

[Thesp]

Scum-tells don't exist. Wiki testifies to this. Wiki tells you that tells should be taken as a guideline at best. And no one has updated mafia-tells until 2004. In my view, scum tells are so unreliable at catching a scum you might as well not use it. It's like a car that is almst guaranteed to break down on every journey it makes.

Then the best the town can do is to cooperate with each other until there comes a point the scums has to do something anti-town because it conflicts their interests too much. This is where rules of thumb like "LynchAllLiars" come from.

The premise of what you have written is absurd. Suppose I have seen, as I've played games through the years, that when someone says "rutabaga", then approximately 60% of the time, that player is scum. It's certainly not foolproof, but if this is my experience, it behooves me greatly to suspect anyone that says "rutabaga" that much more. (This is the principle of a "scum tell".) In my experience, I have seen things which are far more likely to be done by scum than by town, and I've seen some things which are far more likely to be done by town than scum. I draw on that experience to play, and I like to think I'm a better-than-average player for it. (Whether I actually am or not is another subject entirely.) You want to dismiss this useful tool all together.

Your premise of scum hunting is fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons. If the best thing the town can do is cooperate, why should anyone vote for anyone? Why in the world would scum even try to act anti-town during the day? What in the world would it benefit them, since the town is already neutered in its ability to find scum (since scum tells are so unreliable we're random-lynching

at best

)?

This is also to discount the enormous discussion on what actually is anti-town and what is not. I don't think you've even reached the place where you can discuss that. You have miserably failed in your endeavor here, and I suggest you seriously rethink how mafia is actually played. You'll find that tells do exist, even if they're not foolproof.

[Thesp]

Whole basis of scum-tells are based around people making certain types of mistakes.

This is the part of your argument that is wrong. Since it appears the rest of your argument is based upon his premise, I've essentially ignored the rest of your argument as inconsequential.

Scum-tells are based upon scum doing things more often than townies doing things.

They're not even necessarily

mistakes

, per se, it's simply an indication that the person who uses them are more likely to be scum. Suppose it was demonstrated that red-heads are 10 times more likely to have cancer, and you know this fact. Then, suppose you're put in a room and asked to identify the one person in the room who has cancer.

Ceteris paribus

, you should choose the redhead. It's much the same with scum-hunting - you look for things which you've seen scum as actually more likely to exhibit, and try to get them lynched, because they're actually more likely to be scum.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how and why you're arguing against what is at its heart a scientific principle.

[Thesp]

Also, while I'm happiest to see John swing, I will switch my vote to prevent a lynch of either myself or Guardian.

[Thesp]

Mod: Deadline extension request, please.

Thanks!

[Thesp]

Thesp - anything you'd like me to adress?

Yes. Why aren't you voting for scum? I already pointed them out.

[Thesp]

I attacked VRK because of Post 41.

As CTD pointed out, and VRK admitted, he estimated those numbers with three scum. He didn't add any caveats. It sounds like someone who knows the exact number of scum. Later, when confronted with the new knowledge of a possible SK (which scum wouldn't know about), he adjusts his numbers.

In addition, his treatment of me isn't consistant. I outlined my feelings not even one page ago in Post 455, and Post 462.

-Peter

I really, really like this line of thought.

I don't think scum estimates are any indication of alignment in this game. The rule of thumb in mini (and in most games) and this especially being the "normal" is 25% of the population is scum. Guessing the number of scum in this game is not significant.

I think you're waaaaaay off base here in every way.

Unvote: John, Vote: Vel-Rahn Kuhn.

I'd still like to see John swing, but I'm perfectly happy lynching VRK.

[Thesp]

It's clearly better in this situation to lynch someone, so please get your act together, town.

At a deadline, there will be a lynch of the player with the most votes.

Mod: Can you please clarify what you men on the tie-breaking votes?

Are you using longest-held-last-vote, first-to-get-there, or what? Thanks!

[Thesp]

I just can't put that much importance on what could very well be just a simple confusion over the number of scum. It's not that big of a deal, and I don't like Peter and CTD's reaction to it. I also am worried by CTD's pressure for a claim. It is not necessarily the right thing to do.

Vote: crashtextdummie

This is an odd approach, when CTD had just confirmed himself as VRK's partner.

Sorry about my slight absence.

First, I don't like Deathsauce's vote on CTD.

Secound, I'm gonna go ahead and vote paradoxzombie

I see the case on VRK, also I didn't completly like his last post but, so it doesn't seem like I'm avoiding a stance on the issue, I'll say I don't think there's enough for his lynch.

Hmm...I think I may have been wrong on who the mafia were first time around.

I don't mind if Day One lasts another two months, as there are lot of players who have not been put on the spot.

I would claw my eyes out. I think we're already losing information being buried under the mounds of crap.

Mod: I don't want to see the deadline pushed back past two weeks from now for any reason.

Pretty please.

1a.I knew I would be on again before the deadline to apply my vote again if I had too, what's it matter to you?

This is interesting, given that the mod had, just a few posts earlier, delineated how timing of when votes are on is significant.

The whole reason for voting me is because I picked 3 scum (voluntarily in post 41) and then I picked 4 when asked a direct question. So now I'm the number 1 candidate for a lynch based on that - and you want me to claim? Why? What good is a claim going to do at this point?

I am uncertain that this is a fair characterization.

I also really like this Peter guy and think we should keep him around.

[Thesp]

Sorry, I appreciate the three of you trying to shift the focus onto Peter, but you honestly couldn't be more transparent. When there are three players acting in concert throughout 23 pages, it makes outing you pretty easy.

I am convinced I've chosen the right group as scum. If we lynch any of the mustafa/VRK/pickem group, I am fine with that.

I like you, even though you're only 1/3 right.

[Thesp]

Town don't use WIFOM arguments! WIFOM is a scum tactic designed to confuse the rest of the players.

This is flat-out wrong. Scum are

more likely

to use WIFOM in certain situations.

Only oneself chooses how an experience is.

This is absurd.

If either pickem or VRK turns out to be town, my eye will turn toward the CTD/Peter contingent

Please outline why a scum player would take a strong, outspoken and aggressive stance towards a player he knows to be town during day one.

-Peter

This IS a WIFOM argument.

I'm really, really uncomfortable with your attack here, while I acknowledge there is a minor WIFOM going on here. I'm curious - what did you think of death's initial thoughts which spurred this point of contention?

[Thesp]

I believe you should make shorter posts. :arrow:

(don't ask about the arrow)

This is something that's been buigging me since it was psoted...

What's the deal with the arrow?

Don't ask.

[Thesp]

Well I know my own role, so I know exactly where Death's eyes will be turning. As of now, I'm on top for the lynch for Monday because of the number of votes I have. Let's keep it that way and maybe you guys can actually find scum in this game.

I'm entirely not understanding here. What did you think of DeathSauce's original argument?

[Thesp]

Is this what you were looking for? I hope I've understood your question correctly this time.

Let me see if I'm understanding correctly. Peter Venkman is defending himself from this...

If either pickem or VRK turns out to be town, my eye will turn toward the CTD/Peter contingent

...which you describe here...

I think the reasoning for the switchover is lacking.

...is that correct? It seems you're asserting DS's reasoning is poor (which is essentially what Peter Venkman suggested with his minor WIFOM), though springboarding from his attack anyway. Is that correct? (Looking over, I'm not sure if it is, I need to make sure one way or the other.)

I am not trying to stay off the radar. I am following your discussion with Peter avidly, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere at the moment.

Then why follow it instead of try to steer it somewhere useful?

I still have not received any response from Thesp, when I asked for some context for his wild pronouncements of guilt/ innocence. Any progress on that front, Thesp?

Nope, sorry.

I think you're overracting a bit, but the reason I don't feel the urge to vote at the moment since we have a deadline.

I think you need to get your vote moving, buddy. A deadline is all the more reason to have a vote out there. Take a stand,

now

. (Edit: You did. Okay.)

I would like to hear everyones opinion on EVERYONE.

That is not going to happen from me. I am VERY much against that in any game as I feel it only helps scum in deciding who to NK.

I like you. Your given reason is only the tip of the iceberg on how right you are on this position.

It helps town way more then scum.

How? I think you are very, very incredibly wrong on this point.

[Thesp]

I'm having some last-minute self-doubt on VRK. I'm still happier with lynching him above pickemgenius (though I'd like to see PEG put a vote down). I'll try to be around near the end so if things change, I can too.

[Thesp]

Vote: mustafa15. FOS: DeathSauce, Team Quiggan.

Morning.

[Thesp]

@Thesp> why FOS

Team Quiggan

? I don't have much of a read on him

Later.

[Thesp]

wishew, alot of snarky quick attacks, but I guess that is to be expected now that 2 townies bit the dust.
Right now Im going to keep my eyes on Peter Venkman, Thesp, & CrashTextDummie. Who, also, are the most aggressive players. I worry that we may just be jumping at shadows as the scumm watch from afar and mock us. *Shakes fist*
But I do have some OMGUS hate going on against Thesp there. Sure I was involved in the rope tying, but that was just my civic duty. Also he slings bold text around quicker then Widowmakers, and that makes me nervous.
CrashTextDummie- This guy is always quick with both barrels, and in the thick of everything, could be scummy
Peter Venkman-Oppo-OMGUS on this guy, but still alot of fierece battling for the lynch, going to keep the eye on him.

Good thing they killed PEG, I didn't like his brashness, and he was kinda scummy.

That's not what I expected at all.

UnFOS: TeamQuiggan.

No way man. You have been pulling that stuff all game. If you want to help the town, now is the time. Otherwise you have just been posting little goofy tidbits left and right, without any analysis.

Sorry, I wanted to see his TeamQuiggan's post first. My suspicion of TeamQuiggan was a holdover from his predecessor. I'm less inclined to pursue TeamQuiggan now.

What is this all about?

Sorry, I appreciate the three of you trying to shift the focus onto Peter, but you honestly couldn't be more transparent. When there are three players acting in concert throughout 23 pages, it makes outing you pretty easy.

I am convinced I've chosen the right group as scum. If we lynch any of the mustafa/VRK/pickem group, I am fine with that.

I like you, even though you're only 1/3 right.

-Peter

I liked his boldness and willingness to take a stab at who he thought was scum. The "1/3 right" was an allusion to that I agreed with one of his three picks for scum then.

You've posted nothing but baseless accusations and non sequiturs since you've joined the game.

Simply because I don't post reasons doesn't mean I don't

have

them.

@Thesp: Can you now divulge what you saw here:

This is an odd approach, when CTD had just confirmed himself as VRK's partner.

I'll go back and check a little later when I have some time, I think it had something to do with what appeared to be a deflection to me.

[Thesp]

Thanks for the reply Thesp

I liked his boldness and willingness to take a stab at who he thought was scum. The "1/3 right" was an allusion to that I agreed with one of his three picks for scum then.

I assume the 1/3rd you agreed with was Mustafa? What are your feelings on him now?

What do you think about Death's Day Two behavior?

-Peter

Actually, it was VRK at the time. It's mustafa15 now. Things change.

I'm uncomfortable, to say the least, with Deathsauce's behavior today. What about you?

[Thesp]

Not liking DS right now, it looks kinda like scum had a good day (yesterday) and now he's got confidence.

I could see this.

Thesp, what struck you as weird about deathsauces behaviour?

His early comments re: CTD feel odd and forced. He's also somewhat condescending, which tends to come from scum more than town.

I'm finding that I like Peter Venkman, even if I can't figure out whether or not he's scum. That bothers me (the being unable to read someone part).

I'm a little surprised at CTD's unvote.

I am, however, happy with the Paradoxombie hate now (though I confess I didn't buy the early wagon):

I thought everyone looked suspicious but I couldn't make a decent enough case against anyone. It's not that I was worried about getting on a bad wagon, I was worried If I got on one and then had no real explanation of why I did, except "uhhhh, they were suspicious"

that wouldn't just look bad, I'm pretty sure I'd get lynched in most scenarios

This bothers me. A lot. He looks more concerned about being lynched than he does finding scum.

Let me start out by saying I am not at all pleased with those players that decided to start throwing suspicion at me within mere hours of my posting that I was going to be gone for 4-5 days. way to go after the person you know won;t be arounfd to defend himself. Peter Venkman, Thesp, and Occult were absolutely blatant about it.

This is really, really bizarre. I'd stated suspicion of you before you notified us you were leaving, the only comment I made about you was in direct response to PV's question. Where did this come from? OMGUS for the win?

I'm thinking it's time for a vote:Paradoxombie

My reasons have been documented

Please refresh my memory.

Right now, I'd be happiest lynching DeathSauce, mustafa15, or paradoxombie.

[Thesp]

You can see post 678 for my LoS

Vote: Avinyl

Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but I feel like he's not coming back, at least not soon enough to make me feel guilty.

I was mostly voting Avinyl because I didn't think he was comming back.

This vote seems stupid to me, it looks like you are putting a pressure vote on somebody that you don't think is going to be looking at the thread at all. I have an Fos on Paradoxombie because he never seems to have any opinion on anything.

What changed between then and now that made you add your vote?

[Thesp]

What changed between then and now that made you add your vote?

I haven't liked Paradoxombie's recent post, particularly this one...

I thought everyone looked suspicious but I couldn't make a decent enough case against anyone. It's not that I was worried about getting on a bad wagon, I was worried If I got on one and then had no real explanation of why I did, except "uhhhh, they were suspicious"

that wouldn't just look bad, I'm pretty sure I'd get lynched in most scenarios

at least I'd lynch someone else who did that.

Then why not say that, rather than "My reasons have been documented"?

Thesp - You think mustafa15 is busing?

Don't know.

j/k! Burden of proof, man.

This troubles me. A burden of proof is often used by scum to set too high a standard for people to meet. This feels...taunting.

Now tell me why you aren't scummy.

This is an awfully loaded question.

Not sure what else could have been said, but I'm a little surprised xombie had nothing to say to why I found him more scummy...

Flagged (for my reference).

I'm not liking anything around the paradoxombie wagon, including paradoxombie.

[Thesp]

I did that to point how idiotic it looks to vote for someone with no added context.

I don't believe you - I think you're trying to backtrack your visceral OMGUS which you perceive in retrospect to be scummy.

Unvote: mustafa15, Vote: DeathSauce.

I've found the entire CTD/PV exchange thoroughly uninteresting.

[Thesp]

Peter, the interaction between you and CTD was far more than simply asking a question. I have read enough games to realize that minor internal arguments are fairly unusual between pro-town players this late in the game and that staged arguments are far more common between scum.

Where have you read games like this? This doesn't match my experience

at all

. I think you're making things up at this point.

[Thesp]

In conclusion: I fully expect you to jump through a hoop of fire. Right now. If you don't do it, you are scum.

I'm intrigued to hear the justification behind this.

[Thesp]

I'm intrigued to hear why you took it seriously.

-Peter

That's the response I was looking for. Nevermind.

*******************************************
Day 2, Seventh official vote count:


Paradoxombie (3): gorckat, mustafa15, Lateralus
DeathSauce (2): CrashTextDummie, Thesp
CrashTextDummue (1): DeathSauce

Not voting: Paradoxombie, Occult, somestrangeflea, Peter Venkman

10 alive, 6 to lynch.

[Thesp]

Save it for your NK, DS.

gorckat wins the thread!

[Thesp]

Wow, I really don't like the rapidfire lynching of DeathSauce. I mean, that was the final four votes in a little over an hour

Then why don't you do something about it?

Vote: mustafa15.

[Thesp]

I know! Similey-Smiles!

Anyhoo, I'm kinda thinking Lateralus is Scum due to his, IMO, hesitant entry into the game. Whilst I realise that this was, like, a day ago, I haven't really got much else to go by, since he's only posted

nine

times in 12 days. Active lurking is a basic summary of my reasons.

Actually, I'm thinking the opposite - Lateralus isn't scum.

FOS: somestrangeflea, gorckat.

I'd like to hear some guesses from Peter Venkman.

[Thesp]

Thesp> I'm learning that my scum radar is piss poor. I was convinced VRK, Death, and Guardian/PickEm were all scum.

Earlier in this game I was accused of "leading the town." I wish I could keep up the momentum, but after two lousy picks, I'm not feeling it. In addition, I realize that my poor judgment is a tool that can be wielded against me now. For that I have no defense, and if it becomes an issue worthy of lynching I have further failed the town.

If I understand it right, all that needs to happen now for the town to lose is two townies to put their vote on another town, and the scum can end the game. For this reason I will not be voting haphazardly.

When I have seen enough arguments from everyone I will place my vote.

-Peter

While I don't like your approach at all, it feels very genuine and incredibly townie-like.

[Thesp]

I know! Similey-Smiles!

Anyhoo, I'm kinda thinking Lateralus is Scum due to his, IMO, hesitant entry into the game. Whilst I realise that this was, like, a day ago, I haven't really got much else to go by, since he's only posted

nine

times in 12 days. Active lurking is a basic summary of my reasons.

Actually, I'm thinking the opposite - Lateralus isn't scum.

FOS: somestrangeflea, gorckat.

I'd like to hear some guesses from Peter Venkman.

I get FOS'd for thinking someone is lurking.

I'm not sure this is an accurate representation of what's happening.

Further FOS: somestrangeflea.

Thesp> I'm learning that my scum radar is piss poor. I was convinced VRK, Death, and Guardian/PickEm were all scum.

Earlier in this game I was accused of "leading the town." I wish I could keep up the momentum, but after two lousy picks, I'm not feeling it. In addition, I realize that my poor judgment is a tool that can be wielded against me now. For that I have no defense, and if it becomes an issue worthy of lynching I have further failed the town.

If I understand it right, all that needs to happen now for the town to lose is two townies to put their vote on another town, and the scum can end the game. For this reason I will not be voting haphazardly.

When I have seen enough arguments from everyone I will place my vote.

-Peter

And with that, my opinion of you has been sway from "There's a small chance PV is Scum" to "There's a reasonable chance PV is Town". Well done!

Copycat.

[Thesp]

Im not seeing Lat as a lurker at the moment and Im not seeing scum from him either. Thesp why are you suspicious of SSF?

His attack on Lateralus feels off to me. Who do you have pegged at the moment?

[Thesp]

My apologies for my absence here - I just want to get a quick word in saying I'm back after Thespival. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Thesp]

Thesp- you say flea's attack on Lat feels off. What about mine?

It felt more natural, even if I think it misguided - however that changed as I read more and caught up. See below.

Are you kidding me? In what way does a deadline benefit the town?

Did you all forget about day one?

-Peter

If a deadline gets us moving, I'm good with that.

vote: paradoxombie

You're appealing to emotion way to hard.

This feels very OMGUSy, previous vote notwithstanding.

Really? Peter made up my mind for me?

Golly gee...I guess all the suspicions that I'd previously voiced about DS don't exist. Maybe some of that speculation that got zipped off into nowhere helped convince Peter...

It's also interesting that you go after the person who put DS at -2, not the -1 or the lynch. I haven't gone after Occult except with more than a FoS, but lat I was voting till your colon started spewing into the thread.

There's more to quote, but there's too much, and much of it has the same feel.

This feels exceedingly defensive and snippy. I get a real feeling of "How dare you accuse me of being scummy, when I haven't let on anything!" It feels really out of place to me, and makes a whole heck of a lot of sense from scumGorckat.

Christ after that exchange I really want to vote Pzombie.

Hmm. I had the

opposite

reaction.

*reads, growls at Lateralus*

1. How was Thespival?
2. Why do you believe Lateralus is town?
3. What are your thoughts on gorckat?

1. Unbelievably awesome.
2. No.
3. See above. I'm

very

wary of him, and would like to see him swing today. My strong suspicions of his townieness have entirely disappeared.

[Thesp]

I'm not thick-skinned enough to maintain that kind of behavior, and xombie seems to be town so it was doomed to fail period.

It wasn't immediately clear that the paradoxombie lynch was doomed to fail.

I'm torn between SSF, gorckat, and the reasonable assertions levelled against Occult at this moment, though gorckat's recent bit makes me feel slightly more comfortable about him over the other two. I'll be around to make sure one of these three swings. I'm still working out which one I'd rather it be, but I almost feel as though it doesn't matter, and maybe I'm right about all three.

[Thesp]

Vote Pzombie
Didn't like Ichigo, don't like him.

Unvote, Vote: Occult.

[Thesp]

I've got to pack before I fly out. I'll be back Sunday evening. Sorry.

[Thesp]

Also...


Who the hell NK's me...

I forgot you'd claimed townie.

I was very glad Occult missed the paradoxombie cop-hint drop. It was easy to take advantage of. I also thought that Guardian, Peter Venkman and gorckat were flamingly townie the whole game, though that may have been aided by the fact that I

knew

they were townie.

I had the godfather (well, in theory; Thesp had a knack of disappearing when night choices were due, so I was accepting them from whichever scum sent them) pick who among them would kill each night. This didn't really matter, with no tracker, roleblocker, or similar role that would affect outcomes differently based on who killed, but other than the hint in the godfather role that he'd be investigation immune I didn't want scum to know what power roles the town might have.

Sorry I disappered more than I liked! Good job on this for balance reasons.