Mini 416 - AM Mafia - Game Over D:

[Jingolaw]

OK, I'm /in and trestain is out.

I've read everything, but am not ready to vote quite yet.

So far, I'll point

FoS: Pbug

for pressure to lynch, period, regardless of the target, and for setting up a lynch-list, which is scummy in my book.

[Jingolaw]

----6:08:00 AM - Vote Count-----

““The "I just woke up" face of your 30's is the "all day long" face of your 40's”

~ Libby Reid

massive_goonery - 5 - (Ripley, Thestatusquo, Sailor Jerry, Nai, PBuG)
Panzerjager- 1 - (massive_goonery)
Elias_the_thief - 1 - (IH)

Not voting - 5 - ( trestain, bird1111, Elias_the_thief, Panzerjager, CoG888 )
It takes a majority - or

7

, to lynch.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

While I don't like that MG claimed so quickly, I don't have a problem with the role, itself. Sounds plausible to me, but again the timing seemed funny. But I don't agree with the MG wagon...yet.

If MG comes up town, PBuG is one of those I'd look at. While I've been against MG from the beginning of this wagon, PBuG has been pushing for it hard. And no, I don't think they can be the same alignment.

Agreed, but I think it depends not only on whether MG is town, but if he true claimed. Also, has anyone considered taking MG's offer to use his vig?

I just wonder if we're being set up for a double-bad lynch?

Me too, but I'm always worried about that, which is why I don't do much analysis of potential future lynches until we find out the results of the current lynch...it's possible that we're completely wrong, which could change everything.

I find future-lynch posturing and lynch-lists very scummy for that very reason.

[Jingolaw]

well, I was close, but sorry...no hammah from me.

I'm suspicious, but think there may yet be a strategy involving MG's claim that could be useful...I just don't see it yet.

on who? besides our case against MG, we dont really have a strong case to kill someone else without further discussion. so if MG's claim is true, we'd essentially be making a random lynch, and since there are more town than mafia, the odds of hitting scum as opposed to town are very slim. i dont think that's a risk i'm willing to take right now.

Agreed. Your idea mirrors mine, but I thought I'd ask to see if anyone had any other ideas.

[Jingolaw]

Construe, Mis-construe, infer, mis-conflate...

whatever

. Lynch all liars.

TSQ, you're not a Noob, 'round these parts. You must have known that just playing around with a secret like a post restriction was a lie. And you must also have known that later if/when you revealed that you were just playing around everyone else would think you were scum, just for not being honest. You HAD to know that. So you're either scum, or not playing seriously enough to be pro-town. Either way, you lose.

I really see no possible rationalization for withdrawing this one, TSQ. My only concern at this point is combing back to look for collusive behavior.

Vote: Thestatusquo.

[Jingolaw]

As I said above: Perhaps you were just playing around, TSQ. I get it. That doesn't help us. In fact, it decreses the signal:noise ratio. You KNOW that. I think you're scum, but at BARE MINIMUM you're not pro-town. I'm noob to mafiascum, NOT to the game...and I wasn't born yesterday.

I won't be getting lynched today whether you vote me or not, so I would advise you put votes somewhere that they are useful.

These are not the droids I'm looking for? O RLY? Thanks for the advice, but I'll leave my vote where it is.

[Jingolaw]

*_*_*_* Vote Count - 6:11:00 AM *_*_*_*

“Sleepwalker, take this knife
You may see someone tonight
Youd be the one that saves my life
When Im dead asleep dreamin”
~ Wallflowers, "Sleepwalker"

Panzerjager -2- (PBuG, Fircoal)
Thestatusquo -1- (Jingolaw)
Fircoal -1- (Thestatusquo)
Not voting -5- (Panzerjager, Elias_the_thief , bird1111, Ripley, CoG888)

With 9 alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

There are a lot of things which have no benefit to the town, and yet are not scummy.

Your behavior is not “no benefit to the town.” It is detrimental to the town. The two are not the same, even though you would like them to be. As has been pointed out multiple places, it is quite possible that your behavior is not as a result of you being scum...but that is not the same as your behavior not being scummy.

We’re trying to catch scum.

If you want a playground where you can experiment with only typing with your left hand, or false-claiming to be a racoon, or posting only in code, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

TSQ - Damn, you're good.

All - TSQ lies, both as town and scum, get used to it. LAL is not a valid argument, protown people lie all the time.

Protown people lie for a

reason

. When caught in that lie, they explain themselves rationally. That rationale makes sense retrospectively, which is why the protown player will explain what they did and why...this helps catch scum by adding information, not obscuring it. This is why LAL is not only valid, but necessary. If the general theory were “Everybody lies all the time, and there are no consequences to that,” this would be a dull game. But that’s not the theory. The theory is that if someone is discovered to be lying, it is indicative of that person having something to hide. Now, perhaps the secret is a pro-town secret, and its revelation is a pro-town event...Great!...but without a LAL policy in place, there’s no reason to ever find out.

TSQ’s argument is just silly, but your defense of it is much, much worse. Perhaps you're scumbuddies, but I'll worry about you first.

unvote, vote: PbuG.

[Jingolaw]

Explain to me how it's detrimental to the town. No one has been able to do that.

Well, aside from my pointing out that adding noise makes it more difficult to detect signal and also pointing out that while town

may

lie, scum

must

lie, and thus LAL is presumptively a valid, useful, and wise strategy. Oh, and CoG888 pointed out a few reasons in post 241. And Elias explained it in post 242, and again in 251. Oh, and Ripley also pointed it out in post 250, and again in 255.

So, if by “No one has been able to do that,” you really mean “No one has beat it into my head by explaining it more than 14 times, which is my secretly required number of times before I will accept an answer because it’s a secret restriction that I just made up, only I know about, and it’s just my play style, so tee hee hee!”...then you’re right, no one has been able to do that.

If I do it both as town and scum, then it would be really dumb of you to lynch me for it, so dealing with it is pretty much your only option.

Wrong yet again. Even if you were town, which I doubt, you’re a mindless distraction: spam, piffle, claptrap. You add nothing and muddy the waters. It would, therefore, be quite wise to lynch you.

Don't you tell me to leave a site that I've been playing on for about 234234x as long as you.

And your wisdom is truly a credit to the board. Thank goodness you’re here.

[Jingolaw]

Stuff bout Jingolaw: im not keen on how you've acted since you've jumped in. you seem too eager to lynch.

Not sure why I seem too eager. I got here at the start of the MG wagon, and I never jumped on, because I thought the claim was slightly more plausible than not. Turns out it was good, so I looked at who was pushing the wagon, and PbuG and TSQ looked a little scummy, as did Panzerjager’s hammer.

I went after TSQ because LAL tipped me toward him as opposed to Panzer or PbuG. TSQ continued to defend himself and PBuG hinted at claiming. I was actually getting ready to unvote TSQ since we were really just arguing more about metagame issues rather than scumminess, and he was looking less and less scummy, and more and more argumentative (like me).

Then out of nowhere PbuG comes to TSQ’s rescue like Robin to Batman, and for a silly reason. Whoa. That plus the not-quite-claim is enough to get a vote...besides, he can always really claim if it comes to that, right? You’re right that he’s likely SK, though since MG was a one-shot vig, I don’t think PbuG is vig, too. I think at this point the SK is looking to kill townies, so it behooves us to know who it is.

[Jingolaw]

Funniest lines of the whole game:

Question:

Not-quite-claiming? Where the hell did you get that?

Answer (in the very next sentence!):

The last time I said anything about my own role was my first post of the day where I suggested I claim.

I’m still chuckling about that one!

You're voting me for a connection to TSQ when you think you've got me pegged as an SK. Wha?!?

Not exactly. It does look like I’m saying that, though, so my fault for not being clearer. I meant that you drew my suspicion by defending TSQ for a bad reason, then after I had re-analyzed your posting history, it made more sense that you were SK rather than scumbuddy to TSQ.

And as SK, you’ll want to kill town at this point, so I’ll both keep my vote on you, and urge others to hop on the wagon.

bird might be lurking on purpose since he hasn't been replaced.

I think you’re right, here…he’s posted other places. Could be he forgot about the game, though.

I’ll wait for bird and Ripley to check in before looking at them any further, though.

[Jingolaw]

As for pbug, I did not mean that I expected to see one of his FOSes die, but that I expected some logical connection between the dead and those he called out on day one. I guess what I am saying is I am trying to rationalize the deaths and I don't see motivation for pbug killing either Nai or IH... And not because they were not good targets, but because their were others that seemed more likely targets....

That’s all well and good, but remember I think (and you suspected at one point) that PbuG is SK..so we don’t need a rational relationship between FoS and kills. SK wins by staying alive no matter which side would otherwise win, so literally random kills benefit SK early on.

...you can be scum no matter where the kills goes.

agreed.

With 3 town down and no real good leads on scum on Day 2, I think it’s to the SK’s benefit to kill likely townies...I don’t see why the SK would try to find scum at this point.

We could be at lynch or lose today, depending on the number and type of killers.

Exactly. So why wouldn’t the SK nail a suspected townie for the possible win?

I’d also like to remind everyone that we’re unsure of the number of scum, and we’re also unsure that there are only 2 alignments (3 counting a SK...assuming it’s a traditional SK, which it may not be). I’ve been analyzing based on the assumption that roles were more or less traditional, and I’m thinking that it was a mistake to do so.

Heck, there could even be alignment-switching roles, since I’m pretty sure that some roles change at least a little bit over time.

My vote stays with PbuG as SK (assuming he’s trying to win this turn or next by nailing town).

[Jingolaw]

:shrug: I think I've laid out some pretty good reasons to suspect PBuG as SK. Rock solid? No. But enough to lynch, so long as we've nothing better to go on.

I'll wait for GeneralCF to post something (anything), but bird looked scummy enough to warrant a

FoS at GeneralCF

even now.

[Jingolaw]

Whoa. I'm back...should we wait for everyone to check in before continuing, Skruffs?

[Jingolaw]

My vote still stands, assuming PBuG is still with us.

Just in case:

unvote

vote: PBuG

[Jingolaw]

I still don’t have a good read on Elias or CoG, but they remain well down on my list. TSQ is still on the list but, I think we can agree, is likely pro-town (or, at least, not ANTI-town). Panzer is likely scum, and likely paired with PbuG.

I know this interpretation of PbuG as scum instead of SK contradicts my earlier interpretation, but it’s due mainly to Panzer’s activity and not to PbuG’s. PbuG, for that matter, hasn’t posted substantively since my last analysis, so I’m comfortable leaving my vote on PbuG. PbuG is either SK or scum...if he’s scum, we can lean toward Panzer, if PbuG is SK, though, we’ll have less to go on.

As far as TSQ not getting nightkilled...I have no earthly idea. It could be that the scum or SK didn’t see him as a target for whatever reason (perhaps thinking that his immunity would still be effective?). It could be that we have a RB or Doc. It’s also possible that TSQ’s immunity was, in fact, effective through the night. It’s still something to think about, though.

[Jingolaw]

Please.

The first thing that jumps out at me is your desire to direct MG's one shot kill. That really sounds like you wanted another kill for the night: MG's vig, your own kill, and the scum kill.

Or, of course, that with a one-shot vig (who becomes town thereafter) we can get a free shot at scum...if we miss, we at least have a better idea that MG is, in fact, vig (and now town), and therefore stay even. As a vig who claims to save himself, one would have to expect some proof would be demanded by the town, no? I wasn’t asking to personally direct the vig...that WOULD be scummy. What I did was open the possibility of allowing town to benefit both by proof of the one-shot vig’s veracity and also by having the option to nail more scum (or at least put additional pressure on suspected scum).

Next up is you joining the first TSQ bandwagon and hopping off when it was apparent that he wasn't going to be lynched (yet).

My reasons for voting Shea are well documented (despite the crash), as are my reasons for unvoting. I don’t vote because of the possibility of successful lynches; I vote because of the possibility of successfully lynching scum. TSQ looked scummy (as you agreed), so I pounced hard to see his reaction...I think it worked out well. TSQ has a plausible role, and is at least partially confirmed. I think TSQ is town. If I just wanted a lynch, I would have kept my vote on. I’m not sure how jumping

OFF

a wagon makes me look like SK.

Then you vote for pbug, and when I semi-defended him, you claim that I proposed he was the serial killer (in post 307). I never said that. In fact, you have brought up the topic of serial killer in 3 of your posts prior to that, while the only time I ever mentioned it was in post 241 when I was considering different alignments that TSQ might have.

I brought it up because I think I’m right. I think you said the same in a post lost in the crash, but I’ll let that line of reasoning die, as I think it’s too easy to lie about the crash. Fair enough?


But, when you voted for PbuG in post 175, you provided reasons...then, when I agreed, you said this:

Jingolaw: I have a hunch that pbug is not one of our killers. Mostly based on who he was voting and FOSing yesterday, and who turned up dead this morning. Of course I could be wrong... I could be blind to something obvious, but pbug is seeming pro-town to me... aggressive, but town none the less.

Huh. I’m seeing less of a PbuG-Panzer link, and more a PbuG-CoG link.

Jingo, I would like you to answer this before you even think about anything else. How am I scum and How am I remotely related to PbuG?

To be honest, I thought about other things first. You’re getting a pass for now, Panzer, because I honestly think some of the links I saw were lost in the crash. I’m willing to allow you to incriminate yourself anew.

PbuG remains at the top of the list, and solidifies his position more every time he says “I’d go after mafia if I were SK” despite townies dropping left and right. It’s possible PbuG is scum (with CoG and/or Fircoal as partner-defenders), but I still think he’s anti-town either way.

vote: PbuG

[Jingolaw]

PbuG has yet to address the logically flawed argument about who he would nightkill as SK. I realize that I keep bringing it up, but PbuG does, in fact, refer to himself in the same tense and mood as the SK in many posts. This could be an attempt to look less scummy by appearing more SK, but again, at this point, the SK is just as anti-town as the scum. And CoG's repeated defenses of PBuG scare me.

I'm fairly useless, and thus, have no ability.

This is almost certainly a lie. Everyone, please examine your roles. Do you see Skruffs as the sort of mod who would give out a vanilla townie role in this game? No ability at all, PbuG? You dig your own grave deeper and deeper with every post, PbuG.

...but that's what happens when scummy people claim townie.

Yup. Pretty much.

Let’s get PbuG out of the way for now, because he’s anti-town. If he turns up scum, we can look back for better links (difficult, I know, because of the crash), and if he turns up SK we’ll have less to go on, but also less to worry about.

[Jingolaw]

I admit that positing that there were no “vanilla” roles seemed odd. I think that I was mistaking the obvious “flavor” of roles with powers. Given everyone’s “flavor,” I think it’s an easy mistake to have made.

...as he seems to have forgotten this is a normal game (or forgotten it on purpose.)

That’s pretty much it; I did, in fact forget that this was a “normal” game. Think about it: there was a one-shot vig, a one-shot blanket immunity, and at least one hint that powers change or evolve from day to day...that’s not “

normal

.” When PBuG claimed vanilla townie, it struck me as odd, particularly when I was already very suspicious.

Even if they look like they aren't going to be lynched but they are the scummiest why not vote for them? that sounds scummy to me. IF you don't vote for who is scummy, how can we lynch scum?

I think you’re misinterpreting what was asserted. If you reread the whole paragraph, I think you’ll see that my position matches yours. I was defending against CoG’s argument that I seemed scummy because I placed a vote on a player who would almost certainly not be lynched. I defended, arguing that I place my vote on someone who I think is scum, regardless of whether I think that player will, in fact, be lynched. I think we’re on the same page on this, Fircoal.

Jingolaw is far scummier then anyone else to me right now.

Because I don’t buy PBuG’s claim? I’m “far” scummier? Please. You’re looking worse every post. Not, of course, nearly as bad as PBuG, so I won’t knee-jerk a vote for you, CoG, because that would be...you know...

scummy

.

Although I probably deserve the FOS, Cog and Panzer were awfully quick to vote...almost as if they were working together. (PBuG’s vote is understandable)

I have maintained my position that PbuG is anti-town since I got here, providing the best evidence I could. The exact nature of PbuG’s claim leaves me more convinced. My vote stays.

Okay, I'll give you that, I've played like shit and SHOULD have been lynched already.

QFT.

[Jingolaw]

TBH I do not like the cog-pbug-jingalo interraction at all. I think there is at least 1 scum in that group, and I find it very likely that there's 2.

Believe it or not, I’m leaning that way, too. If PBuG comes up SK, I’ll be less sure, but if he comes up scum, I’m increasingly convinced that CoG is scum, too. CoG’s doing way too much PBuG-defending...much more than PBuG, himself, actually. CoG’s also way too anxious for a claim.

I’m still not sure about Panzer: he looked scummy, then looked pro-town for a while. Now?...scummy again.

[Jingolaw]

Jingolaw, it was a reasonable to request a claim, you're 2 from lynch.

Wow, a defense of CoG,

and

an additional call for a claim? Who would have guessed that. Although I’m quite sure PbuG is anti-town, I’m moving more toward scum and away from SK.

Of course, my vote stays.

Um, At this point I think either PBuG is scum or Jingo is scum, and I'd like a claim from jingo, and why do I look scummy now, because I'm on to you?

Of

course

you’d like a claim. Scum want to find power roles. Odd, though, because you really go back and forth on my list from post to post. I think, at this point, the quick-voting alliance of PBuG, Cog, and Panzer looks bad. If I claim, scum gets free info, and you have no intention of lynching PbuG anyway, so why claim now?

[Jingolaw]

Huh. My first instinct was correct, after all. Frankly, CoG, it was your interaction with PbuG that led me to think of scum rather than SK to begin with, but I’m hesitant to do anything about that without a reread...

Which is what any prudent pro-town player would do, right, Panzer? I sincerely recommend that you not regard this as an OMGUS, but reread my earlier suspicions of Panzer (which were back-and-forth, admittedly). The quick vote (it doesn’t matter that it’s on me...if not me, it would have been any other non-scum) is enough to convince me that Panzer is anti-town.

I hesitate to say “scum” at this point, as the roles in this game are FAR from normal, but scum-ish is appropriate.

Vote: Panzerjager

[Jingolaw]

Wow, Panzer, way to confirm scumminess. If I had more votes I’d hammer you right now. I think you fabricated just about every assertion you made in your last post. Let’s follow along, shall we?

I find it funny Jingo is not saying anything about you after ,just a week ago, thinking you were scum.

You’ll notice that I predicated my suspicion of CoG on his link with PBuG. It seemed that GoG was defending PbuG unduly, making me think he was a scumbuddy...this, of course, requires PbuG to be scum, and he turned out not to be, so I’m considerably less sure about CoG now. If only I had said something like that a week ago. Oh, wait, I did!

If PBuG comes up SK, I’ll be less sure, but if he comes up scum, I’m increasingly convinced that CoG is scum, too.

Next sentence:

I also don't like his vote on me because there is abosolutely no reason for it other then I placed it quickly.

There are, in fact, plenty of reasons for my vote on you. Many have also been expressed by others: your eagerness to vote (or hammer, even) and your baseless flip-flopping, for instance. I’ll direct you to posts 421 and 478 for my earlier, clear, and unmistakable accusations of you. It comes as no surprise that you “don’t like” my vote on you, but saying that “there is absolutely no reason for it other that I placed it quickly” is, indeed, a bit of a surprise.

Next sentence:

He never offered a defense to us thinking he was at all summy [sic].

Except for the detailed and specific defenses I offered in posts 431 and 471, you mean. Granted, you may have missed two earlier posts of mine lost in the crash wherein I defended against Elias_the_thief’s suspicions, but I think 431 and 471 should be sufficient to show that you are in error.

He accused me of being linked with PBuG when it's apparent to everyone in this game that the only person I've been remotely to is CoG.

I’m not sure how apparent it is to everyone, but many could suspect your links and not yet have expressed their suspicions. We don’t need to ponder that, however, as Elias, Nai, and PbuG have all openly expressed their concerns that you had links to players other than CoG (posts 192, 157 & 202, and 141, repectively). This doesn’t count suspicion of links to CoG, and keep in mind that we lost a lot in the crash.

After that the thing I'm connected to is logic.

On we journey into the next paragraph. (We’re only on the sixth sentence!)

After TSQ came was revived, He immediately came off him which is suspicious because he was so convinced that TSQ was scum before the revival.

Immediately? It was so immediate, that it actually occurred

a week earlier

, it seems. I was so convinced that I purposefully and explicitly pulled my vote off TSQ and put it on PbuG, explaining my actions clearly at the time? I also explained how I thought Shea looked less scummy after he explained himself...this is all still in the thread, despite some of it being lost in the crash. Reread posts 283 and 431, for example.

:sigh:

The next five sentences are just Panzer’s asking and answering his own rhetorical questions about how innocent he is and how scummy I am.

On then to the last paragraph.

Another cute thing I noticed, He said that he assumed that PBuG is trying to win by nailing a townie after PBuG clearly stated "If I were SK I'd be aiming for mafia." The guy doesn't seem to be following along quite well, which to me is scummy. Why would someone who isn't scummy miss something on his suspect? He is lynching people on halfassed suspicions which is only good to do as scum.

Sorry, this is too tedious to do sentence by sentence, but let me try to explain this. Retrospectively, we know PbuG was the Serial Killer. Earlier in the game, when I suspected him, I said that logic would dictate that the SK should kill townies. PbuG told us how (much like O.J.!) he was not the SK, but if he

were

the SK, he would do the opposite. This strengthened my suspicions because of his association with the role, but I put little stock in his actual answer, because he was likely lying about his future course of action in order to throw us off his trail. In sum, Panzerjager, I can think of one little tiny reason not to believe the Serial Killer:

HE’S THE SERIAL KILLER!

(miss something on his suspect, indeed.)

[Jingolaw]

Frankly, I haven’t posted because I have little more to say than I’ve already said. Panzer’s extremely lame claim holds absolutely no favor with me at all. He doesn’t remember what night choices he made? Aren’t we supposed to be playing this game based on logical inference using every shred of evidence we can gather? And Panzer’s not sure what he has learned so far? (Or, can’t re-read to recollect what he was thinking earlier...or look at his own PMs?)

Please.

As I said earlier: If I had more votes, I would hammer Panzer right now.

The only flaw I find in CoG’s reasoning on the claims issue is that in this game, in particular, I wouldn’t be surprised if there

were

two role-blockers (or an alternate-days role-blocker, or a wizardly one-shot flying role-blocker, or an alignment-changing vampire double-SK, or whatever the hell other roles are remotely imaginable). (No offense, Skruffs...I like the game, but didn’t expect these roles in a mini-normal).

That said, CoG, I’m buying your claim for now.

Capt? Fircoal? Still here?

[Jingolaw]

I’m afraid I have little more to say. If I could vote for Panzer a few more times I would do so. I’ve spent way too much energy explaining why I’m convinced he’s scum to spend yet more time pointing out to everyone which specific posts contain which specific accusations. Read, reread, don’t read, whatever. I’m finished.

I completely understand sudden time commitments that keep people away from the board. But if they come up, you have to tell us (or Skruffs, anyway) so we can consider replacements.

[Jingolaw]

This is ridiculous.

I’m getting prodded for not posting? I haven’t posted since the logic underlying my vote on Panzer is wholly unaffected by the recent replacements, or the discussions following the replacement. I’m not going to analyze pages and pages of near-recent history, when I very thoroughly laid out my case against Panzer, voted, and stuck to it.

Panzer’s OMGUS vote on me, unsupported by anything other than bald assertion, continues to further cement my read on him being scum. As I have said time and time again, if I had another vote, I’d hammer Panzer right now. And “screenshots if Skruffs allows it”? Please.

Jingolaw has acted proscum all game.

pj and cog contradict eachother. One of them has to be scum. They have both claimed, so what purpose does mass claim serve? None.

BINGO.

All this mass-claim nonsense is unnecessary. Guardian looks a little scummy for proposing it, but his logic isn’t faulty. It’s just that he’s basing it on us being at lylo, which I’m not sure is the case. This game has very odd rules and roles, as I’ve pointed out before, so I’m not sure our alignment tallies are that useful.

Nevertheless, what we have before us are counterclaims by CoG and Panzer. Plain and simple. There are other things to consider, certainly, but this is the most obvious and pressing. Its resolution will reveal a great deal, including shining light on the now-ongoing finger-pointing. I don’t read CoG as pro-town...but neither do I see him as scum at this point, so I can afford to defray suspicion...mostly because in the CoG vs. Panzer contest, I see Panzer as the definite scum.

If you’d like me to post several more messages explaining, yet again, that I think Panzer is scum and should be lynched, I’ll be happy to post one per day,

ad infinitum

.

[Jingolaw]

I suppose I should jump in here to reiterate, for the umpteenth time, that I agree that Panzer is scum. With Panzer lynched, and that suspicion likely confirmed, we’ll have more to discuss. Until then, I see little reason to continuously rehash the accusations, which Panzer never answers directly anyway. I don’t mean that as an

ad hominem

; Panzer’s a perfectly good player. It’s just that in this game, he’s perfectly good scum, and he’s cornered.

I’m not discounting a Panzer-Guardian link, nor am I discounting a Panzer-CoG link. While Panzer’s still around, though, the more we yap about it, the more chance the partner has to backpedal and distance. I value the information that comes from discussion, but in this case I think there’s enough evidence already in the thread to work backwards from the lynch and at least get reasonable leads there. I’m concerned that discussion at this point may be obfuscatory.

And yes, this is a very Jingolaw-centric view of the game: “Jingolaw has made up his mind and spoken, so there can be nothing more to say.” So be it. But my vote was very carefully cast in the first place, and I have only grown stronger in my suspicions since then...which was almost 3 weeks ago.

Instead of my continuing to post this same information along with an invitation to reread the game for a detailed analysis of my accusations, I’ll invite everyone to just imagine that I’m cutting and pasting this same post into the game at the top of each page.

[Jingolaw]

Wow!...very well played, Panzer! That was a hell of a game. My hat's off to you and Jack.


And thanks for the clever game, Skruffs. It was a little unusual, and I know I complained about it, but it was fun and very well modded.

I'll post another post-game analysis later; I'm out of town until tomorrow.

[Jingolaw]

Reading back now, Jack’s posts just ooze scum, but it’s funny that at the time I was so focused on Panzer that I didn’t see it. I didn’t really have to do any detective work in this game, though, and I’m disappointed that I was less than persuasive to Elias, CoG, and Guardian. I

knew

PbuG was the SK (or, less likely, scum) because I watched him kill, and I

knew

Panzer was scum because of the false claim (which I had watched the night before).

My job, really, was to convince people to lynch Panzer without painting a huge bull’s-eye on my back...failed, and failed. I tried for almost a month to yank people into the light, to no avail. I was within a few hours of role-claiming and trying to reconstruct the case against Panzer (which, I’m sure, would have ben ignored anyway) when Jack

very

skillfully hammah’d.

By that time, Panzer, I’m sure you were extremely eager to nightkill me, having seen the glowing bull’s-eye I had painted on my back for you.

Again, very well played, Panzer and Jack; congratulations!

And Skruffs, I enjoyed the game very much, but I must point out that with so many specialty roles, the game approaches randomness. When so many players have roles that directly effect other player’s roles, it becomes impossible to catch scum because

any

claim becomes plausible, and

any

obscure alignment makes some sense. With that said, I think your flavor was among the best I’ve seen, and the concept was innovative and clever. Thanks again.

And thanks again to everyone else for playing. I hope to see you all in other games. Cheers!

-Jingolaw

[Jingolaw]

To be honest, I am both perplexed and understanding of Jingolaw's play. He saw PBug - and pbug alone - target Nai night one, but barely mentioned it - and helped lynch TSQ day two instead.
Why, Jingo? Why??
I'm assuming that you were afraid of being nightkilled - however, you could have helped town a lot by outing yourself for an even trade.

I saw PbuG, and

guessed

he was anti-town, though given the bizarre roles, I really wasn’t sure. I pushed a little to see if I could get him strung up without claiming, and then Shea started his antics, giving me a good opportunity to see how Shea and PbuG interacted, so I went after Shea, knowing I could always come back to PbuG, claiming if necessary to get him lynched. I was unclear if he was scum or SK at first, and I wanted to see who associated with him and how.

To me, remember, PbuG was a confirmed (probably) bad guy...knowing more about him didn’t help me. But knowing more about his associations

would

help...particularly when the scum didn’t know that

I knew

that PbuG was a bad guy. When no concrete connections came up, I leaned more toward SK, and explained fully in the game.

I had nothing to do with TSQ’s lynch. I defended him, in fact.

Once I had a better read of PbuG as SK, I rode him hard until everyone else came on board the wagon. After Panzer’s false claim I did the same thing; I relentlessly pushed and pushed and pushed...but to no avail. As I said, I was going to claim and hope that would convince the rest of the town to lynch Panzer, but I had doubts that anyone was listening to me...Panzer was running wickedly effective interference.

One of the prime reasons for not claiming sooner was the crazy roles. You mentioned in my role that, as the sun, my power grew as time went on. I know now that this was flavor, but had no way of being certain. I thought perhaps that my role changed over time, perhaps getting to watch twice per night after a certain number of days, or something like that. You must admit that it wasn’t completely crazy for me to have thought that. With that in mind, I had to take into account that my pro-town abilities just might be even more valuable than normal...so I was reluctant to make an even trade Day 2.

That potential even trade would not really have helped, anyway. PbuG was SK, not scum...but I didn’t know that Day 2. I only knew he was anti-town (or probably anti-town, anyway), and hoped to associate him with somebody and breadcrumb the combo, not just point and yell “scum!” at PbuG. Finding the associations is more valuable than just sacrificing yourself for one bad guy who

may

be scum, but also

may

be SK.

It made perfect sense at the time with the information that I had. Does that help?