Mini 424 - Game Over

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Who am I replacing?

MOD NOTE

spectrumvoid

replaces

shadowdeath

effective immediately

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Sorry guys, 1 more day required. Down with food poisoning.

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I haven't finished yet, but I just thought I'll post what I have so you all don't have to keep waiting. ^ are basically notes to myself, meant to be edited away when I finish, but I'm too lazy to do them now. Things in - bullets are pure copy-paste without analysis, just for my own notes.

OMG:
I think Elias made a mistake on page 1. And while this might not show if Elias was town or scum, I find OMG's reaction to kil overblown. Kil asked a perfectly logical question (explanation later), asking Elias to respond.

OMG just went way over and jumped to defend Elias with a vote on kil. And he's saying kil being proactive is bad. This post is almost incoherent, and after reading it, the only thing I'm getting is OMG thinks kil is scummy for going for a tiny mistake of Elias. On page 1, other people also pointed out that mistake. Then he starts getting also pissed off and saying he's not going to answer any more questions. Being emotional and hyper-defensive is a classic scum-tell.

He claims later that he's naturally aggressive in an attempt to defend this jumpy post. He also claims that people deliberately ignored/misintepreted his earlier post, when I also feel that I don't understand his earlier post, the one where he just said whatever kil said was BS.

For no reason at all he votes ac (in retaliation to ac's vote on him.)

Then he asks to get replaced, which he withdraws (giving up is another classic scum-tell.)

Then again for no reason at all he votes nocmen.

*Also been after javert for annoying him.

Conclusion:
OMG has made a few classic scum-tells. He also fixated on kil, for being 'lazy' when there were other inactive players. However, I find it hard to believe scum would draw this much obvious attention to himself. Non-commital at the moment, because yes, I'm aware this is wifom, and this is the too scummy to be scum fallacy. I need more time to think this over.

Kil:
I find kil not scummy over his question to elias. I think he clarified himself nicely, and explained why he questioned elias again in post 29. (Unlike OMG, I think kil's question to elias was valid.) I don't see this as kil jumping on elias, I read this as a pro-town move to try to get a read on elias.

Pointed out that Nocmen started the 1st wagon and lay low.

Voted Barroman for not adding much to the game yet casting suspicion to Elias. This is not a contradiction, kil never did commit to saying elias was scummy.
His questions were phrased along the lines of: why did you do this and that? And explaining why he thought that could be scummy.
(This was after Javert pointed this out.)

Kil's responsed to OMG. It's also right of him to point out that other people were also inactive. He voted OMG, clarifying he didn't think it's a strong case.

Conclusion:
Slightly pro-town read on kil at the moment, based on how he reacted under pressure. I'm leaving that whole appeal to emotion thing out because it sounds just like OMG insulting kil, and I think kil was right to point out that mafia is supposed to be fun, not insulting. Either way, I think it's irrelevant.

* I need someone to verify that kil disappeared on site, not just for this game.

Javert:
Non-commital: Doesn't believe elias could make that mistake, yet suspicious of people attacking elias.

First one to point out how Barroman's questions to Elias could be scummy. Then again, he 'will be monitering the situation' and 'investigating others simultaneously. ^Note: check this.

- Asks ac1983 to comment on Elias-issue.
- Asks Meme to comment on ancalagon.
- Responds to Barroman, saying he did not answer B's questions to Elias.
- Asks OMG why Javert is annoying OMG.
- Asks nocmen who Ancalagon is defending.
- Points out the Shadow isn't voting. Asks shadow when is it time to vote
- Asks Barroman if B agrees elias has answered B's questions.
- Clarifies he did not answer B's questions.

Unvotes B, because B was sincere in his explanation of his intentions
I'm not sure whether to believe this. If either Javert or B turns out to be scum, I'll take another look at this whole Javert-B interaction. It's hard to describe exactly why, but Javert felt to me like he was picking it out purely so B could explain himself thoroughly over this. However, I will not be considering this today, because pairings are bad on day 1 due to lack of night information.

Goes against kil: kil is appealing to emotion using that fun VS insult thing, kil is asking them not to pressure him for irrelevant reasons.
This is significant. ^need to check timeline with other players, whether Javert is "going against the flow."

- Votes ac1983, could be the shadow if he doesn't reply.
- Makes a please contribute post.
- Asks nocmen where the Javert is nitpicking-scum vibe comes from, why is he drawing connections on day 1.
- Explains why he's busy, defends ancalagon against... Meme? ^check.

Consistency in his next 3 posts with his earlier playstyle (harping on ac1983 and Shadow for not contributing enough) + consistent with his earlier 'investigating others simultaneously' bit. ^need to check with Meme's post. Also consistent with his push for discussion (earlier he went around asking people what was their opinion on others.) Javert is a good conversation starter.

Conclusion:
Javert is a good mafia player. He's also very detailed. He plays fairly unemotionally unless riled up. Very slightly protownish for liking discussion (just veryvery slightly). No other clear read on whether he's town or scum, but this is what I gathered from his playstyle.

Next up:
barroman, followed by ac1983fan, followed by ancalgon, followed by Meme.

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Yelling at people and using bad grammar (I'm pretty sure even someone who's English isn't that great knows how to capitalise I's)doesn't make you town either.

In other news, I've been grounded for playing scum.net during exam period, I should regain access this weekend.

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Elias: I'll get around to everyone soon, no worries. Glad to hear you're feeling better!

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I ended up doing Meme next because of the connection with Javert::

- First person to point out elias created a competing wagon. Neutral post. Says good point: barroman is trying to make elias look more suspicious. Waits for reply.

^ Meme never responds to barro's reply.

Says ancalagon is worth watching because ancalagon overweights his points. Stays with lurking shadow. Says kil is appealing to emotion.
Votes ac1983fan, clarifies it's a pressure vote to get him to contribute.

^ hesitancy to vote ancalagon/kil , choosing to vote lurkers and non-contributers.

Votes ancalagon for saying he'll post and going on vacation, not contributing. Will vote either ancalagon, shafow, javert or ac1983fan.

Javert/Meme interaction: consists of J accusing meme of her voting, for expecting Anacalagon to remember something that he can't, meme clarifying ancalgon, saying J appealed to emotion. J wants more reasoning from Meme regarding voting. Meme clarifies she didn't want the day to end.

I maintain the same slightly pro-townish read of Javert from the J/Meme interaction, because of the careful reading. Yes, I do realise he could be scum nitpicking, but from the town in which he questioned Meme, I'm leaning towards town. I also don't think there is any bussing going on.

I have a slightly scummy vibe from Meme here, mainly based on her voting pattern, and the way she said she'll vote for lurkers. I missed the 'lost back-and-forth', but it's pretty weird the way she pretty much ignored barrorman-elias, and the other players (like omg), choosing to focus on lurkers/non-contributers.

Ancalagon:
No read. Massive lurker. Till he finally says something other than asking someone else to say something. Slightly scummy purely due to non-contributiveness.

I'm dropping kil from her previous slightly pro-townish place, to neutral. No particular reason, just that I reconsidered why I thought earlier that he was pro-town and I don't think the reasons I listed were strong.

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Elias, barrorman, ac1983fan tomorrow.

I am not going to comment on the posts ac1983fan felt were scummy till I get some analysis of exactly why he felt they were scummy. Hypothetical scenario: scum want to frame someone, knows some people think some others are scummy, lists some posts down, and waits for other people to supply him with reasons. (This is NOT representative of what I feel about ac1983fan, this is just something I've seen happen.)

I'm sorry if I misworded my earlier post, but I did NOT say that I thought OMG was scummy. What I said was: OMG exhibited some classic scum-tells + scum might not be this obvious + too scummy to be scum fallacy. Then I ended by saying I was 'non-commital.'

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Meme: Because there is currently >1 person I find slightly scummy, I can't vote all of them, and I haven't finished all the players.

I'm pretty much satisfied with Meme's response. Obviously, I wasn't here during the crash so I probably missed a few major arguments. Also, I checked up on Meme a little, and this going after lurkers/non-contributiveness is consistent. *shifts to neutral*

I'll have another try at the too scummy to be scum argument . Nocmen: do you think scum would be this obvious at defending his scum buddy?

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I'm done with everyone. I have some questions for barro but he's not here. There's something about elias that I'm unclear about, I have to read again.

I'm totally not getting the case for ancalagon. Could someone (more than 1 please) outline it for me?

Pmed the mod for extension. (Mod: no offense, but most mods don't issue deadlines till all players are present? *ducks*)

I will be unhappy with a shadow lynch today.

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mod

Please extend the deadline. Take it as giving time for the replacement to read through and say something.

I really don't like soft/partial claiming...

strong fos: omg

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Sigh... Barroman returns, and I managed to lose my file of notes on him somewhere. *goes digging*

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I have some RL stuff going on (unexpected, cropped up), and I need around 5 days before I can do heavy posting. I'll try my best to get something out a couple of days before deadline.

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In response to the question, I forgot what I was unclear about elias, but I went to read his posts again and I'm neutral.

I'm a she. And my wiki has been hijacked by mr stoofer, so don't trust anything you read there *grin*

Since there's been some debate going on about playstyle, and I don't really have anyone else I think is particularly scummy, I'd be happy with a

vote: ac1983fan

This is partly due to some metagaming reasons --> his playstyle. Ac1983's playstyle generally consists of adding nothing to the game + finding nothing to say despite many pages, OR consistently repeating someone is scummy either without a case/pasting or putting down post numbers with 0 analysis.

Here's why this game in particular:
1) We're at page 13 and apparently ac1983fan finds nothing to add.
2) He's unreadable. Do you want an unreadable person at endgame?
3) I don't see him contributing in the future. He has been pressurised many times, and has not changed.

I should also state for the record that I'm not buying the case for ancalagon, hence why I'm proposing this.

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I'm not too sure what to make of the claim.

unvote

for the time being.

What I did was contraversial, and I was expecting some discussion before we even start talking about claims. I was also expecting to have to defend my logic for lynching ac1983, since it's something that I've actually been lynched for in the past (I was cop/doc, unfortunately.)

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To use a little wifom logic here, I can't see any reason for nocmen-scum to do what he did. That makes it horribly obvious that he's trying to out a power role. Of course, this is wifom, which is bad.

I need someone to lay out the case for ancalagon.

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I've said in post 324 that there's no one I find particularly scummy.

I could've sworn I'd unvoted...

unvote:ac1983fan

Seeing as to how the deadline is today, I do not want to lynch a claimed power role, and I've explained why I don't think nocmen is scummy,

vote:ancalagon

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wtf is wrong with you guys

I think the mod was referring to this line.

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To use a little wifom logic here, I can't see any reason for nocmen-scum to do what he did. That makes it horribly obvious that he's trying to out a power role. Of course, this is wifom, which is bad.

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I think the 'saving half of my patients' bit is significant. 1/2. 2... hm...

I'd like ac1983fan to reveal who he blocked. I will also be looking at omg to see who he might (emphasis on 'might') have protected.

Post 324: First off, I did the 'let's kill the unreadable guy' in another game before, and I was quick-lynched for that, but I never figured out why. Also, lynching someone based on metagaming is contraversial.

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Ac1983fan saying he blocked barro makes sense considering he said barro was scummiest.

Looking at Omg's post, I can't tell who he might have protected, but it wouldn't be nocmen, meme or kil.

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Kil did make the last vote, and nocmen was one of the later additions to the wagon.
Disclaimer here though: we'll never know what happened at night...

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Nocmen: To make it look like she contributed to the lynch. To decrease suspicion etc.

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Ac1983fan... so we're going to let you lie low and lurk in plain sight for the next week and 1/2 or so? I don't think so.

mod

please prod kilem.

At this point, I'd say kilem is more scummy as compared to yesterday, because of her behaviour on the lynch.

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Nocmen: I'd like to hear you reasonable proof.

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Eeks. *your.

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I never did ask barroman anything, because he didn't have a prominent location in my los.

Also, I don't see how nocmen's post 'clearly implies mason.' I've seen a LOT of cops assume they're 100% correct. (I have never played with nocmen before, so I have no idea whether he knew he could be insane/naive/paranoid etc etc.)

Nocmen: Please confirm.

I believe Nocmen and kilem, because I see no reason for scum to tie themselves together. I also believe that Meme is pro-town.

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Javert: It was a debate in the forum when some mods were discussing whether to have role pms standardised, which led to the inclusion of the special note added in a cop standard pm about sanity.

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It's the wrong thread. I think it's the standard pm for newbie games thread. Anyway, I've run some newbie games and I always get questions about that. I've played around 15 newbies I think and someone asks that roughly 75% of the time (game details on my wiki page. I really don't want to go into this, it's irrelevant.)

I saw Javert's post earlier, but I didn't want to respond till after Barroman did.

Point 1 reminds me of those classic scum-tell things. Like whether congratulating the doc is a possible scum-tells. I don't buy classic scum-tells, mainly because they're unreliable.

Point 3 does sound like B was 'sucking up' to Javert. However, it's an isolated case because it only happened once.

I don't read the question in 4a as a scum-tell,

I agree that B's absence on the Ancalagon wagon was scummy. Also, I don't like his very defensive response (point 5 in the latest post.)

I agree that the 'hasty' comment was scummy. I also don't like his explanation in point 4c. So apparently he managed to decide whether someone was scummy. He didn't think she was 2 minutes ago, and within the space of 2 minutes changes his mind. I don't think this is possible, judging from B's play this game.

At this point, I'm not sure what to think of ac1983fan's claim, and I'll be reevaluating that. Other than thinking Meme is not scummy, I don't know what else to think other than to

vote: barroman

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Hm.

Other than the questions issue, I'm not getting a case for elias.

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Elias: Do you think scum would tie themselves together at day 2? When only one of them was under pressure?

Will we be getting a replacement for ac1983fan?

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ac1983fan: I'm in a couple of those other games you mentioned. I don't see why you can lurk obviously, and pass it off as your playstyle. We play to win, not to use a certain playstyle. I've also obviously ranted about this before.

I'm also pretty sure I've leaned heavily on you to explain post numbers before, not just sate the numbers somewhere.

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Elias's latest post has set the alarm bells inging.

ac1983fan: I understood low activity because of school stuff, because I also tend to disappear for a couple of days each exam period. You could this earlier and not just used 'lurking = my playstyle as a defense'. I'm not too sure what to think of this now that you've made a semi-contradiction. But I don't think ac1983 is the lynch for today, due to his claim.

Elias's latest post has set a couple of alarm bells ringing, because it's completely non-commital.

As this point though, I'd still prefer a barroman lynch.

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Elias: I wasn't referring your discussion on ac. I was referring to the bit where you mentioned barroman.

I second elias's request.

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I agree with Meme.

Seconding the request for kil to list why she thinks elias is scummy.

I'm fine with Elias's clarification. I still think his post was non-commital, but now I know exactly where they stand on his LOS.

mod

What are the results of barro's prodding?

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mod

What are the results of barro's prodding?

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From open 18, the mod has been busy with RL issues, but he has since returned.

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I will be away now till Friday.

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Give me a sec to get back.

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I second the request for ac1983fan to reveal who he blocked.

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I second the request for ac1983fan to reveal who he blocked.

Dead people
Arafax: Cop
Ancalagon: scum
omg: doc
barroman: doc backup
kilemator: mason

Live people
ac1983fan: claimed RBer
Elias_the_thief
javert
meme
nocmen: mason
spectrumvoid
sweenytodd

Preliminary thoughts:
I am innocent. I think ac1983fan is innocent, pending his night result. Hence, I think the remaining scum come from are elias_the_thief, javert, and sweenytodd.
I've been liking javert's posts so far, so I'll be focusing on sweenytodd and elias today.

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I'm the cop. I have an innocent result on ac1983fan. However, all my investigations have been innocent, so I could be naive.

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My predecessor's 1st night was arafax (fellow cop). I don't want to reveal who the other is at the moment.

I claimed now because I didn't see much point in waiting. True, I could have waited to see who would push the wagon, but I didn't want an accidental hammer/quick-lynch on ac1983fan, if I'm not naive and he's really a roleblocker.

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Or a godfather.

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Apologies, I was sick. Lucky it was only one day though.

2 nights ago, I investigated omg. I confused this game with another one, anyone who saw my sig during that time (my sig was something like: If I'm cop/doc in any game, will the mod please drop me a pm) can verify this. Yaw (another game mod) told me to change my sig.

I think I'm sane, but either naive or not naive. If I was insane, with 3 investigations, probability says I'd have received a guilty one somewhere.

I thought it was unlikely for a game to have 3 cops in it, hence why I was pressuring nocmen. I was baiting nocmen to fake-claim cop if he was scum, hence that: "I've never played with nocmen before bit", giving him an excuse.

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I find it wryly ironic that you seem to imply you think you are sane, by the by.

The sane/insane bit was in response to this post.

Order of investigations:
Arafax, omg, ac198fan.

I'm pretty sure I didn't hint at using my role to analyse people, precisely because I wanted to avoid confusion after my possible death. I stated clearly yesterday the reasons for not thinking meme is scum somewhere... I think it was her analysis.

(Sorry... I just got out of hospital. Darned dengue.)

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I don't know why Arafax was investigated, but it's probably random.

Omg was a mistake. Ac198fan: I didn't want a case where he wasn't lynched if he's lying about his power role, because claimed power roles tend not to get lynched.

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2 nights ago, I investigated omg. I confused this game with another one, anyone who saw my sig during that time (my sig was something like: If I'm cop/doc in any game, will the mod please drop me a pm) can verify this. Yaw (another game mod) told me to change my sig.

This was the 'mistake' I was referring to.

I didn't want to reveal because I'm not sure if I'm naive, and as such my results might be unreliable. But I revealed ac1983fan's because I didn't want to risk a quick-hammer.

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Newbie 313: I replaced in late game, claimed cop, no one believed me.
Open 9: night-killed after I claimed.

If anyone's interested, here're games where I was scum and fake-claimed cop: open 10, open 13, and maybe newbie 300. Most recently was newbie 376.

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Ac1983fan: Please explain what is the difference between pretty scummy and slightly scummy.

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Ok. I've thought about this.

I think ac1983fan is pro-town. Here's my thought process: Assume that if scum were sophisticated enough to false-claim, they were good enough to claim decently. I don't think scum would have claimed to not block last night. They had pretty good odds to work with to false-claim, eliminating the mason and me because of my first post, claiming to block either elias or sweeny or anyone else would have made sense. If whoever he claimed he blocked dies and is town, he could have passed it off saying the other scum did it.

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The thing is: I don't see why ac1983fan would have been 'contradicted'. If he was scum, he'd know who to night-kill to not make a contradiction.

But I do recognise this is wifom.

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Though I dont like the fact that SV is holding his result. ac1983fan, while some of their actions seem illogical, dont contradict themselves somewhat like SV's do.

1. Where are the contradictions?
2. I don't understand what you mean by holding my result. I have revealed al l actions.

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I really really don't have anything to add at the moment.

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I wouldn't be alright with it... we're at day 3. *sob*

To get this game moving though, we need replacements.

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In my previous posts, but all scattered around, I said earlier that

1. I trust Nocmen = mason. Still do.
2. I like Javert. I still do.
3. I used to like Meme. I'm adjusting Meme back down to neutralist levels though. For a current lack of analysis.
4. I have close to no read on elias due to his on-off activity. (I'm not blaming him though, it's just that I can't ask him to weigh in on things when he's not here.)

vote: ac1983fan

I really wanted to do this earlier, but I wanted us to have a full playing roster (and I wasn't sure if the game was going on.)

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My main argument for thinking ac1983fan is pro-town: that if he's smart enough to false-claim, he's smart enough to claim decently.

1.) What day did you start doubting your Sanity?
I've never doubted my sanity, but I've always noted that I could be naive.

2.) What day did you "want to do this earlier" (vote ac1983fan, specifically)?
Sometime after post 539, 541 I realised my argument was wifom.

3.) What day did you first think the game might not be going?
When the mod disappeared.

4.) What day did you first think we might not have a full playing roster?
When the mod posted that he was looking for replacements.

5.) Why did you not alert us that you were beginning to change your thought process when you said "I don't have anything to add"?
Because I wanted to hear from the replacement first. Imagine if I dropped a vote earlier, we get replacements, and a quick-lynch... (This has happened.)

6.) Who did you plan to vote prior to voting ac1983fan and why?
Mainly by process of elimination (refer earlier post), sweenytodd.

Don't have time atm to go metagame myself, I'll do it later.

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Edit: insert after first line something along the lines of 'But I've since realised ac1983 isn't smart (reference: latest posts.)

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I'm sorry sorry sorry for screwing up the night choices.

I KNEW Javert was way too good.