Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

[FourTrouble]

/confirm

[FourTrouble]

Also, dunno if the game has started, but if it has,

Vote: Katsuki

If the rule makes the game harder for scum, no reason to call it bad. I feel like scum are more likely to point out its bad, not town. It implies you know more about the setup than you should. Town just assume the game is balanced around whatever the rules.

[FourTrouble]

Vote: Katsuki

for reasons mentioned earlier.

[FourTrouble]

Jeezus, this is boring. Why aren't you guys voting Katsuki?

[FourTrouble]

Who are you and why are you voting Katsuki?

Well, shit, those are some dumb questions.
1. I'm some dude in the game.
2. He called rule 6 bad because it punishes scum.

[FourTrouble]

Seriously, you guys are playing achingly pro-scum so far, regardless of your actual alignment. It's basically 6 pages of meaningless clutter.

[FourTrouble]

Who are you and why are you voting Katsuki?

Well, shit, those are some dumb questions.
1. I'm some dude in the game.
2. He called rule 6 bad because it punishes scum.

See, I saw that as him giving a pre-game critique to Nat. Nothing alignment-oriented?

Why would town even critique a rule that (maybe) punishes scum? I also think the critique assumes way too much. Why not assume the game is balanced around the rule? Town are uninformed; they're gonna assume the game is balanced. Scum are informed; they're more likely to critique a rule cause they know more about the setup. I also think scum are more likely to complain about a rule than punishes scum than town are. The critique is basically more likely to come from scum than town.

[FourTrouble]

Seriously, you guys are playing achingly pro-scum so far, regardless of your actual alignment. It's basically 6 pages of meaningless clutter.

I feel like if you can catch the tones of people in the beginning of the game, you can get some good player-connection analysis later in the game.

I don't see why meaningless clutter is the right milieu for reading tone/player-connection. It is literally the easiest shit to fake as scum. Wouldn't it be more effective to create difficult situations for the scum to respond naturally to as quickly as possible?

[FourTrouble]

Hey, I got nothing against a conversational style. I just find too much clutter at once makes it hard for me to keep focused on scumhunting (it all starts to sound the same, hence harder to distinguish scum/town posts).

Selkies, I've played with you guys before, right? I remember your name (ffery and orci both), although it might have been from reading your games. I can't remember exactly. That said, I do remember your "chaotic" style and I remember liking it, but it felt much more purposeful back then. I think that's the difference I'm noting here.

The argument that its scummy to consider who is or isn't an easy lynch is a massively stupid argument. I actually think its useful to know who the good/bad players are, as it helps evaluate their play individually, rather than based on general tells.

[FourTrouble]

It scares me to be thinking this so early, but SSK looks pretty town.

I agree.

[FourTrouble]

I think you can cut out pages 2-5 and we'd have just as much information as we have now. I'm not saying it was all useless, maybe there is something there, but personally I find other sorts of posts more useful.

What have you learned from those pages that I'm missing?

[FourTrouble]

Oh right, HunterxHunter. I was in a hydra with F-16 for that game. I really liked buldermar's posting actually, lol.

[FourTrouble]

zMuffin: Why does the analysis on Katsuki cut the other way?

[FourTrouble]

zMuffin, Yes. Your analysis is just WIFOM ("it's too scummy so therefore Katsuki must be town"). I disagree. The main point here is that the critique is more likely to occur to scum than town. Where they post it -- the game thread or privately -- is WIFOM. The fact that someone reads the rule and thinks its bad because it punishes scum -- that's something that scum are more likely to think than town, regardless of how you try to spin the whole posting it in the thread part (which is WIFOM).

[FourTrouble]

Vote: zMuffin

[FourTrouble]

To be fair, the only difference between myself and katsuki was that he typed it out, while I merely thought it. Well that, and remembering how fucked up it made the game I ran with that rule on my home site.

That's interesting. You've had experience with it before. I wonder if Katsuki has?

[FourTrouble]

zMuffin is a better vote than Selkies. Selkies post where he called SSK town was very genuine and towny. zMuffin is eh.

[FourTrouble]

Vote: zMuffin

And also, what? Weren't you just saying how Katsuki was definitely scum?

Sure, but zMuffin is here (or was a second ago) and Katsuki isn't. I'm not gonna just let my vote sit on someone, waiting for shit to happen.

[FourTrouble]

The main point here is that the critique is more likely to occur to scum than town

so you baselessly assert

Actually, I gave some reasons. It had to do with the fact scum are more informed than town, and scum care more about rules that hurt them than town.

[FourTrouble]

Sure, but zMuffin is here (or was a second ago) and Katsuki isn't. I'm not gonna just let my vote sit on someone, waiting for shit to happen.

don't like where this explanation seems to come from. not buying it

Vote: FourTrouble

What's wrong with the explanation? It's not like there is just 1 scum in the game, and I'd rather use my vote then let it sit on someone with no effect on the game.

[FourTrouble]

Selkies seems like town. Let's lynch Ross?

Unvote, Vote: Ross

[FourTrouble]

Selkies, SSK, Bert, and Goodfather are town.

[FourTrouble]

Nah, fuck walls. It's more about his tone + I just get the feeling he's trying to figure things out, not contrive analysis.

[FourTrouble]

I'm not sure about zMuffin. His defense of Katsuki felt contrived. I get disagreeing with me and calling Katsuki null, but calling Katsuki town feels like overcompensating, and somewhat scummy. The rest of his posts are fine, though nothing spectacular.

Ross is scummier, and I'll explain that later, when and if I have time. I'd love to hear what others think of Ross though.

[FourTrouble]

Ross, just because I asked others what they thought of you doesn't mean I threw your name out at random. You're making way too many assumptions about my intent.

[FourTrouble]

Well, since a few people seem really interested in why Ross is scum, here's a bunch of good reasons to vote him:

In regards to Goodfather and Katsuki, I don't see it being scummy to criticize the infamous rule six. I see it as an individually minded town player being worried that even if he or she is actively hunting and aiding the town, he or she might still get randomly lynched because the rest of the town is lazy or indecisive. Although town shouldn't be worried about getting lynched, because the point of the game isn't to make it to the end, it's to find scum. This isn't Survivor.

In regards to Selkies, pointing out who might be an easy lynch isn't good for the town. Even if you are town, you're giving information to uncreative scum about who would be a good target to pile on, and if enough people declare so-and-so to be an easy lynch, people are going to start seeing scum in them just because people are lazy

The post doesn't contribute anything useful and is basically safe stuff to say. The first paragraph is just saying there is nothing scummy about rule 6, a position that had already been argued and was mostly irrelevant to the game at this point. The analysis of Selkies is just a mundane theoretical point, again not really telling us anything in terms of who the scum are. Ross even frames it in terms of "not good for the town" rather than saying Selkies is scummy. It's too safe and shows a lack of scunhunting.

To put it another way, it feels like Ross is trying to find theoretical positions to disagree/agree with, a lens more likely to come from scum, rather than attempting to genuinely figure out who the scum are. Scum tend to read the game looking for these sorts of theoretical points to comment on because they are safe and don't really expose your motivations. If you look back over the game, the reason Selkies is town is precisely because he has moments where it shows that he's genuinely trying to figure out who the scum are. Ross doesn't have any of that here, while making what appears to be a substantive post, and that's a major red flag, my opinion. There are also some minor points about this post that I really don't like -- the phrase "This isn't Survivor," for example, just feels really fake. It feels like Ross is overstating the point, something scum are prone to do.

In regards to Selkies, pointing out who might be an easy lynch isn't good for the town. Even if you are town, you're giving information to uncreative scum about who would be a good target to pile on, and if enough people declare so-and-so to be an easy lynch, people are going to start seeing scum in them just because people are lazy

I'm not the head who made the observation out loud, but in many games players are familiar enough with each other to know who are likely lynchbait, who are bus-candidates if they are scum, etc. One of the places I look for scum is on the "easy lynch" wagons.

Why do you think scum would be found on the easy lynch wagon? When I think of people who would be targetted for easy lynches, I think of new players who have no idea what they're doing but are trying to keep up with people posting text walls, so they rack their brains and end up with bs, which gets them targetted pretty easily. Not that new players can't be scum, but I think new player scum tend to be quiet and stay under the radar and try to get as little attention as possible.

Which is why I think we need to pay attention to Aronis, and also to Mafiassk for saying we should leave him alone just because he's new,

because if Aronis is scum

, that's exactly what we should do if we want to let him keep slipping and scumming along

The first paragraph here, again, is just disagreeing with a theoretical point -- are scum on easy lynches? -- rather than trying to figure out Selkies' alignment. I just don't see why Ross is putting this much effort discussing this point when it has literally no bearing on Selkies' alignment.

The second point -- pay attention to Aronis/SSK -- is basically saying, "let's go after easy lynches," because they COULD be scum. I'm bolding the key phrase here that really bugs me. When someone is reading the game in terms of what is possible, like X "could" be scum, then that person is not really hunting for scum. They're just looking for people they "could" get lynched. Town don't read the game that way. They read the game in terms of probabilities, things like X is "probably" scum because of Y reason.

Selkies, if we're laboring under different ideas, could you just explain to me simply what you mean?

And Bert, I haven't played mafia in a few years, so anything out of the norm is probably just me resharpening my rusty tools. That's also the reason why everyone seems to know each other already except for me.

I didn't like this post either. The question directed at Selkies doesn't really make much sense to me. And the "haven't played mafia in a few years" thing and "everyone seems to know each other except me" bit just doesn't sit well with me.

[FourTrouble]

It scares me to be thinking this so early, but SSK looks pretty town.

Goodfather taking the "spamming" point too far. I'm kinda torn now. His read on Selkies doesn't seem genuine.

[FourTrouble]

Oh, I quoted that post because I was gonna make a comment that I thought it was very towny. I think I said that earlier too.

[FourTrouble]

Cabd(overactivity first 6 pages, and then suddenly disappearing. Could just actually be sick. Could be avoiding the spotlight)

Listen up asshole, because I'm only gonna tell you this once.

Mafia is a game. You can insult my play. You can insult my reads. You can insult my logic. But you know what you don't do? You sure as fuck don't trivialize an illness I was born with, and can cite the existence of in plenty of other places, as me abusing my honor. I get stomach acid piped up my throat daily, and I've been having that happen since the day I was born. Some days are easier, some days are harder. This past week has been a flurry of "harder" ones. Go google "Gastric reflux" and then go sit in the corner and feel like shit until you apologize.

Up until I read the last line, i was prepared to apologize.
1) I have ever played with you before, so I would have no reason or occasion to recall your illness.

2)I never said anything about your honor, but the way you responded makes me think that you have none, or more likely, thatyou are scum.


Everyones got something to bitch about in their life, the difference is not everyone uses it as a crutch. Take a tums or some fucking alka seltzer. No need to rip off my head for an observation that your activity has decreased substantially. And if you really wanted an apology, you might try in the future to be less of a dickhead

Bert, what are you thoughts on this post?

[FourTrouble]

Also, for the record, I dunno what the problem so many people had with me not providing a reason for voting Ross, or with asking others what they thought of Ross. There is value in directing attention to a player without providing your own thoughts on the matter and seeing what others think of the player. For instance, it helps compare your own thought process to others. I also tend to think town are more likely to offer their thoughts on a player in that situation than scum, as town are trying to figure things out and will turn their critical attention to someone being voted.

[FourTrouble]

Ross is scummier, and I'll explain that later, when and if I have time. I'd love to hear what others think of Ross though.

I don't really see anything out of the norm from Ross. He asked a few questions. Had a breif convo with Selkies about easy lynches, seems more like different playstyles then anything else. I don't really see enough in his posts to make lean towards scum or town for that matter. Calling Rule 6 "Infamous" is a little bit strange, but I can see what he means.

Ross is underwhelming. There's nothing of importance in his ISO. His interaction with fery was a miss, but that's not particularly scum indicative I don't think?

calling rule 6 "infamous" in 291 was weird

Sure, you can spin it that way but why not spin it as town genuinely interested in what others thought of his vote? It's not really persuasive in either direction. The truth of the matter is that I didn't have time to offer my own reasons, and I was interested in what others thought. What I find more important is the information we got from my so-called "fishing" -- Selkies and Aronis offering their own thoughts -- which gives them town points in my book.

[FourTrouble]

So, Ross/Muffin/Katsuki scum-team? That makes the most sense, at this point.

[FourTrouble]

Nah, now its based on lack of contribution + early game.

[FourTrouble]

Also process of elimination.

[FourTrouble]

katsuki is town, foutrouble is town, mafiassk is maybe town, selkies is scum

I also think this is pretty damning for zMuffin. As I said before, it's fine to critique my analysis of Katsuki's post on rule 6, but to call Katsuki town on that basis makes no sense whatsoever. zMuffin's analysis was basically saying Katsuki's post was too scummy to come from scum, and then calling Katsuki town on that basis. I just don't see a townie going that far.

[FourTrouble]

Aronis is town because of his response when I asked what people thought of Ross. It showed me he was thinking about the game the way town thinks about the game. He saw someone vote for Ross, and that prompted him to think about Ross with more depth. I think scum are among those who did not offer their thoughts of Ross.

King Kenny is ultimately null but I thought the following post had hints of town that Katsuki/zMuffin's posts lack:

@idiotking:

I don't know what you don't get about my post or what I mean. Bert seems to be posting naturally without it looking forced, or containing fluff or nonsense.

I think scum would have tried to rationalize their read more. King Kenny's explanation just makes sense given the view I'm getting of the guy. Is it a solid read? No. But it sure has more town in it than anything Katsuki or zMuffin has posted.

[FourTrouble]

Selkies, you're town as I already mentioned. There were a few posts in the first 10 pages that I liked a lot, and the fact you offered your thoughts on Ross was town for me.

Idiotking, Bert, SSK -- don't think I need to explain those town-reads.

Goodfather/Cabd -- I'm still trying to evaluate their interaction, which seemed over-the-top at times, but overall I like them as town. I had Goodfather down as town based on town quite early, and likewise for Cabd.

Anything I'm missing? This game really isn't that hard. Ross/Katsuki/zMuffin. It makes sense. It's clear.

[FourTrouble]

Kaboom could be scum, not enough to go on. I kinda skipped over his posts for lack of information. I'd say scum are within Ross/Katsuki/zMuffin/Kaboom, and more likely to be Katsuki/zMuffin/Ross based on the fact that I expect more from them. Kaboom seems more like he's got no clue what's going on, regardless of alignment, and I'm not sure why he's in the game.

[FourTrouble]

Also, you can check my games if you don't believe, but I'm actually pretty good when it comes to accuracy of reads in this game, based on a single post or two early in the game.

[FourTrouble]

zMuffin, can you direct me to a couple of your games as mafia?

[FourTrouble]

Bert, what games have you played with zMuffin?

There is a big difference between Nacho's reads -- which make sense -- and zMuffin's reads here. I have no problem announcing town reads. The problem I have is with zMuffin's reasoning.

There is also a big difference between PoE and what I find problematic about zMuffin. A single post is enough for a read. I've made that pretty clear. I'm critiquing zMuffin's reasoning behind his reads, not the fact that he has them.

If there is a problem with the reasons behind my reads, point them out. Tell me why Aronis, or King Kenny, are not town. But don't tell me that PoE is going too far when I've provided reasons for all my reads. That doesn't compute.

[FourTrouble]

What do you think of the "Rule 6" discussion earlier in the day? I'm interested to hear who you think took it to far with that other discussion.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I still think my reasoning is sound, if that's what you're getting at. I think critiquing a rule for punishing scum is more likely to come from scum. It speaks to the player's motivations (scum care if they're punished by a rule, town don't) as well as how informed they are (scum know if it punishes them, town don't, based on the game's setup). It is persuasive evidence that the player is more likely to be scum. It doesn't mean it's 100% the case, though.

[FourTrouble]

What I'm getting at with King Kenny is that he didn't try to rationalize his read. The key line in his post was actually the first one, where's he literally says he doesn't know what to say or something to that effect.

[FourTrouble]

Obviously, the read on King Kenny is not gonna be as strong as a read on Selkies, just given the disparity in information we have to work with. But like I said, sometimes a single post is all you need to figure someone's alignment out. I remember playing a game (different site) where I called out the 3/4 of a mafia on the first or second page, with only 1-2 posts from each player. You don't need a lot to figure things out. You just gotta know what to look for.

[FourTrouble]

I think I already asked you what you thought of the Cabd-Goodfather interaction but... Your gut doesn't tell you anything is off there?

[FourTrouble]

The Cabd-Goodfather interactions bothers me on a gut-level. Something feels fake about the emotion but I can't tell you what, so I just kind of bracket it in my mind for now.

[FourTrouble]

Imagine if Falcon were in this game too...tonight would be the biggest offsite meta extravaganza I've laid my eyes on...culminating in nailing a strong scum/townread on Goodfather hopefully! <3

F-16? We should get him to replace an inactive.

[FourTrouble]

wow shots fired

why is katsuki a waste of a lynch

Katsuki is either a jester, or he's blatantly over this game, which tells me town. Scum don't check out of a game on day 1

Can we lynch Ross, please?

[FourTrouble]

Although Katsuki is not a bad lynch, either. It really should be one of those two.

[FourTrouble]

Katsuki's posts in her catchup were lining up exactly with my train of thought.

Not a good reason to call someone town, especially given the posts you cited earlier are basically just "interesting" and "why is X scum" sort of posts, which isn no reason for calling someone town.

VOTE: Aronis

Pretty sure Aronis is town. Is there any particular reason you think he's scum?

[FourTrouble]

If you think Katsuki is scum why did you ever unvote Katsuki >.> Can't tell if stupid town or scum

You can't vote all the scum at once... and more information was gained from trying to build a wagon on zMuffin and later voting Ross.

[FourTrouble]

I didn't see any reasons why you're voting Aronis. You just cited some of his posts, and basically said "what is this?" and then voted. I'm asking for more elaboration or clarity.

[FourTrouble]

On a more serious note, what can I do to convince you guys to vote for Ross? I'm really quite sure he's scum here.

[FourTrouble]

PBPA of his ISO

187- SSK and Four Trouble are town. No elaboration, instead votes muffin without any reason behind it.

203- He lists all 3 main-ish wagons as the most likely to be scum. There's no real sign of trying to figure out anyones alignment.'

228- They've been voted most for a reason. They're just suspicious. He's changing his story and backtracking all over the place

280- Backtracks on 2 of his scumreads (at least), shares no other information, adds nothing to the game.

295- (Side note: Scum have daytalk? Looks like a scumslip imo). Defends himself without adding anything to discuss.

345- When Aronis flips scum I'm coming back to this because it looks like a chainsaw. The entirety of that post is to call Ross null.

353- This kinda looks town, I'll grant that.

391- This looks like a scumclaim imo. He's trying to blend in and do nothing to help so after we lynch his sorry ass we'll have nothing to go on. What's the town motivation for blending in?

602- Votes Selkies when he's said Selkies is suspicious all game, after he unvotes like 300 posts before.

He's hardcore lurking and trying to sit in the background and push popular wagons in an attempt to blend in and survive.

The narrative you tell doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't see what's inherently scummy about trying to "blend in and survive." I think weak players often put more energy as town into surviving instead of finding the scum.

187 and 203 are things both alignments do, all the time.

228 - How is he changing his story? The post looked genuine to me, something town would say.

280 - There is nothing scummy about changing your opinion. He explains the logic behind his reads, and it looks more like town given his level of competence (clearly not very high).

295 - We know scum have daytalk cause of the rules. It isn't a scumslip. He further explains his change in opinion, which in retrospect was a very natural and fluid change in opinion.

345 - What do you mean this is a chainsaw defense? To me, this post was pretty town. I don't see scum responding to my request for thoughts on Ross.

353 - Why does this look town?

391 - The town motivation is surviving. He explains it in the post. It makes a lot of sense, given his level of competence.

602 - I don't see it persuasive in either direction. It's not a strong post, but his explanation doesn't really look contrived.

[FourTrouble]

Selkies, if you had to guess the scum-team, who?

[FourTrouble]

notscience, I'd like a response to some of the questions I asked you about Aronis.

[FourTrouble]

notscience, I have a few more questions for you.

1. Why are 197 and 230 town posts? (zMuffin)
2. Why are 255 and 258 town posts? (Katsuki)
3. Why is idiotking scum? There should be more to your answer than just, "because he's voting SSK." Is there some meta informing your read?
4. What do you think of SSK? Town or scum? If scum, why do you have a problem with idiotking? If town, how does that reconcile with your read on Aronis?

[FourTrouble]

Bert, why is notscience town?

[FourTrouble]

I don't know his meta - can you answer quick question? Is he competent enough to put forth "reasoning" as scum?

[FourTrouble]

What's wrong with that post?

[FourTrouble]

Bert, what are your thoughts on idiotking?

[FourTrouble]

Oh shit, Nacho is in the game, awesome.

[FourTrouble]

Nacho, why is Katsuki town?

[FourTrouble]

Deadline is coming up, who are the people we could potentially lynch?

[FourTrouble]

So, I don't really want to lynch Aronis... not really sure what to say about that though.

Why don't you think Ross is scum?

[FourTrouble]

Is Ross dead?