Mini 1511: Insurgency Emergency (Game Over)

[Elyse]

/confirm

[Elyse]

Oh God. This going to be a wall game. You guys are like those english teachers that read into everything and say that everything has some kind of hidden meaning.

Fusion is town. 48 exemplifies my thought process exactly and I agree with it 100%. implosion's vote on aphix is bad, and the fact that he has yet to respond to Fusion's post despite posting afterwards makes my scumread on implosion even stronger. I don't really have any other additional reasons since Fusion said all I could've said in 48.

I dislike gorckat's vote on aphix as well.

I dislike these sections of Az's post:

Pacman, if you’ve ever heard of a pressure vote…yeah. Don’t appreciate the subtle character attack though (ostensibly, really?). Also, is ABR still scum? Who else is scummy? Why are you defending aphix so hard?
Side note: I was recent scum in a game with a partner that pretended to be n00b levels of newb. They got past and we had a perfect victory because another town member also bought into the idea that they were too noob to be scum as they would have outed themselves already. Aphix is also not n00b-like (Newbie 1376 if anyone is wondering). I’m not sure if you’re that town member or if you’re trying to sell it though.

Fegel, sorry to be a bother but can you either have a “not voting” section or just keep everyone else with 0 votes? Also, are you sure the timer and end date are correct? I’m not complaining, just that’s longer than 2 weeks by my count. Also, please poke fitz (12pm), ants(1pm), elyse(3pm) and skelda(7pm)

The first one eliminates the possibility of aphix-town, which is a very closed-minded approach.

The second one seems like a blatant attempt to look town by asking for prods on players not even a day into the game. It's the weekend. I wasn't able to get on yesterday. Relax.

VOTE: implosion

[Elyse]

Why is it scummy for KK to assume he is smarter than you?

Also *ongoing* but Albert takes a while to get into the game. But he does eventually.

I don't like how HP is saying "if you don't know who's scummy, put your vote on Albert for being anti-town". There are lurkers out there doing less than he is. Being open about it is also more of a townie thing to do than trying to hide his inactivity.

[Elyse]

a. Ok?
b. I know. I'm saying that he does eventually get into it and it's better that he's open with it rather than trying to hide it.
c. Skelda, havingfitz - I'm still giving them time to catch up but I think Albert is a silly vote for "anti-townness" when there are people who haven't produced an ounce of content.
d. I wasn't going there at all. Why are you trying to anticipate my actions?

I know that you didn't mention lurking. I never said you did. It was a general statement.
And I'm not fabricating anything, and it's not because you mentioned me. You never even said if that meant anything. Why would I react to that?

[Elyse]

Also you can gtfo with the holier than thou attitude.

[Elyse]

Yes.

I don't see scum having that attitude and way of thinking.

I don't agree with it but I think it's townie.

[Elyse]

So what are you saying his alignment is based on that?

[Elyse]

But you just said you don't see scum having that attitude or way of thinking.

I see it coming from confident town who feels like he's reading into things better than others.

[Elyse]

Ok. I understand what you're saying now but I still disagree.

I still think you are town and so is KK.

[Elyse]

Elyse, I’m not seeing how I’m eliminating aphix-town in 53. I brought that up as an example because in my previous game iV was absolutely convinced that bae was town because of being too n00b to be scum. I was not saying that aphix was definitely scum but was trying to get pacman to consider his stance that aphix wagon is supposedly on a VI (who doesn’t act like a VI at all). It addresses one possible scenario. We also won because D3 was basically a lurkfest resulting in a no lynch which isn’t a risk today but it doesn’t hurt to call people on it early. Also, I don’t understand c from 99, are you saying that you're giving the lurkers a pass but they are better votes than Albert?
On that note, I’m not sure about pacman’s position (as Ant noted as “trying to ride both wagons” though pacman had no substantial votes on him). On the one hand, he was defending aphix hard, mislabelling him as a VI(scummy) however he doesn’t review his posts before editing (67 being a misread) and is coming on super strong (towny).

Your example seemed to rule out the possibility of aphix-town but if you were just using it as a reference, then alright.
And I'm giving the lurkers a chance to post (i.e. not voting them and going POST LURKERS!!!) but I also think that saying Albert is more deserving of votes than them is wrong.

@elyse do you tend to get good reads from being abrasive? Although I do like more natural responses that tend to come from argumentative behavior your post all seem like your picking a fight.

Yeah, I'm an abrasive person. I try to keep it cool but oh well.

@Elyse...do you think lack of content is more worthy of a vote/suspicions than anti-towniness?

Yes.

Az is still on my scumdar. I have KK, Fusion, and Albert as my strongest townreads. EPM is a bit tough to read but overall I'm leaning town on him and same with fitz.

I think HP's style of posting seems more town than his content actually is, so it's a nullread there. I do want his response to mine though.

implosion is still my top scumread. He hasn't improved the slot yet.

I'm not sure where I stand on aphix. I can't quite figure him out.

[Elyse]

Skelda, do you prefer playing town or scum?

[Elyse]

Skelda, do you prefer playing town or scum?

Town. I royally suck as scum. Why does it matter?

I just didn't realize this game existed, it got lost in my threads.

Well if you were scum and you liked it, then I would think you would remember this game.

But your answer didn't really prove anything. Meh.

[Elyse]

UNVOTE:
I like implosions latest posts. Will reevaluate.

[Elyse]

VOTE: AzBlueM

Rereading, I've come to a different conclusion about implosion and like him for town.

@aphix
What do you mean by "huggy" and who am I huggy with?

@HP
Meta is why ABR is one of my strongest townreads.
Also, what are you asking me about Fusion?

[Elyse]

Oh and the same reasons for Az-scum still apply.

[Elyse]

@Az
You have a grand total of 6 posts, one of which was a confirm. Excuse me for not having a 12-page case on you.

You are pinging my gut hard and your posts seem artificial and constructed. I also find it weird that you mentioned scum have daytalk. I didn't know this until you pointed it out. Your posts almost reflect the coaching of someone, which fits rather nicely.

Also, why is Skelda town because scum have daychat?

[Elyse]

And nothing about your posts seems genuine or town-minded. It's mostly in tone and not in content.

[Elyse]

Yes. You can sound coached from one post.

[Elyse]

@implo
Idk maybe I'm bipolar? I'm a girl. We're moody.

[Elyse]

Happy birthday!!

[Elyse]

lol

[Elyse]

Sorry for the weekend absence- wasn't planned, but it did not go as I expected.

I had cribbed this up Friday afternoon and I'll post with some polish now:

Az's obsession with Skelda:

27- Fegel please change the topic to D1 so people know the game's on

53- Also, please poke fitz (12pm), ants(1pm), elyse(3pm) and skelda(7pm)

113- Poke: Skelda. Also votecount pl0x.

172- After some considering scum have daychat, Skelda is most likely town even if not helpful at all.

175- Hypothetical Skelda-scum would be able to see the daychat and know D1 started.

The way deep reading is that Az-scum wanted skel-scum to get in the game and is then covered for by the lame daychat excuse (if he's not reading the thread, why is he reading over on QuickTopic). The wording of 175 seems forced, as well- 'hypothetical' is entirely superfluous there.

Also- Az's asking skel about ABR being an easy target in the same post as his own unvote of ABR scans as shady 'lemme be townie and debate with my partner'.

After the weekend, I'll try to read back and decide if I like this over aphix-scum.

This is a good post.

[Elyse]

To everyone else, let me explain to you why Humble Poirot is scum.

@ABR: 59: so basically you won't play d1. Nice.

Firstly, huge misrep quoted above.

Secondly, Poirot does a whole lot of complaining about other players referencing me as a strong player or defending my play on meta. He goes on at great length throughout the day about this, such as in post 94, post 98.

Tl;Dr: On the verge of voting ABR but awaiting some responses.

Thirdly, he uses a cheap trick, quoted above, to add the illusion of credibility to his future vote. Why would a townie try to setup a future vote, on page 7? The norm is starting the day with firing random votes in every direction and using any excuse imaginable to get the game moving. What in the world is up with this guy being on the verge of voting someone...? Let me tell you. He A) feels the need to justify his vote and B) is planning his strategy in advance.

Of course, it looks bad if I can't answer his questions, because they are too sharp and I have nowhere to turn to, to defend myself.

Unless...

Unless, he doesn't actually have a question, he just wants to provoke me and proceed to push the strategy he pre-planned in his head.

Do you have no reads? If so, why did you make that bs up about implosion?

Is that actually a legitimate question he expects me to answer? I disagree that "I made up bs about implosion". I think there was a disconnect in what implosion said. Poirot may think it was a stretch, but the setup of his questioning and the subsequent vote is scummy.

He demonstrates a lack of genuine interest in obtaining information; if he did care, he would ask neutral, objective questions that allow the person to present their thoughts in a different way.

Instead, he resorts to asking bait questions, and follows it up with apparent dismay at my uncooperativeness for not responding to him.

Twice, he claims that it's a hard game. It's not a hard game. The reason we haven't been doing anything, and I want to put emphasis on this, is because bandwagons are not being pushed. We can hardly get to half a wagon for a lynch on any one player. Do you think we can scumhunt in these circumstances? Town will not compromise on their reads, scum will not wagon-hop, and we're wasting the day away. Change that with me now. Let Poirot hang.

I actually really like this post and agree with it mostly.

But HP came up with some good responses and you just ignore him? Wtf is that?

@HP
Fusion is a strong townread for having similar thought processes to my own, gut, being willing to (and changing) reads as new information comes in, and for things mentioned before.

As far as ABR being a strong townread, that's gone. I don't have scum meta from him but yeah I don't like how he's just ignoring you (especially since his case was decent). I feel like he's either lazy, frustrated town or lying scum who can't come up with a good response to you. I can't decide which.

[Elyse]

Sorry for replacing into a scumslot ETL

[Elyse]

Why did you claim

You have two votes on you

Wat

[Elyse]

Yes which is why I told you you replaced into a scumslot

[Elyse]

I definitely want ETL to post her thoughts before she's lynched, but she's still my number one priority for today. I didn't like Az's posts and her's have been awkward and complainy.

@HP
I would compromise onto Albert because I find his ignorance of you and your posts very silly and scummy. I don't understand the town motivation behind ignoring a player you are calling scum, but my gut is telling me you are taking advantage of this situation and trying to squeeze out a mislynch on a competent player's faults. I could be wrong, though.

[Elyse]

Who is the confirmed liar

[Elyse]

Oh.

Well there are also games where he doesn't scumhunt until later, but yeah I see what you're saying.

[Elyse]

I'm not going to hold you solely responsible for ABR's lynch should he flip town, but you will be the one mostly at fault. You are pushing on him hard.

And by experience/reputation, I'm calling Albert competent. That's part of

why

my gut is pinging on you. He's having an off game, town or scum. His refusal to interact with you is bad and scummy but he IS a good player. So it does make me wary when people highlight these things and push really hard for a lynch. It's probably paranoia and you SHOULD push these things. However, there's a line between Albert is scummy and Albert is playing poorly. I don't think you've crossed it yet, but it's getting there. And it's not your fault, because he's not interacting with you, but it's just part of my paranoia.

So yes I'm more comfortable with an ETL lynch and I wouldn't care if someone said I tried to squeeze out a mislynch on her faults because I have reasons that go beyond poor play.

[Elyse]

I have a townread on KK.

ETL is my preferred wagon but I will switch to ABR if necessary.

[Elyse]

I thought you townread me.

And none of your reads require engagement/change my stance on you.

[Elyse]

Also that.

[Elyse]

Town reads: epm, elyse, kk (after post 130)
Scum reads: skelda, implosion
There's something weird about how defensive skelda is.

Also fitz is pretty aggressive. I understand there is suspicion on my slot. Thats fine, but you are looking in the wrong place.

I am starting to like abr too. I can understand where he's coming from. It takes me a bit to get into a game myself.

The rest are varying degrees of null, but gor is more nulltown than the rest imo.

Would you look at that

Also your major scumreads are the competing wagon and a lurker.

Nothing earth shattering to talk about.

[Elyse]

A lot of especiallythelies's posts look townish including her questioning of Skelda. I agree with Skelda being scummy as well. ETL is a bad choice of lynch which sucks because she is also the most likely player to get lynched. I am fairly sure there are scum on that wagon.Everyone who disagrees that lies is scum need to start looking at alternative lynches, provide reads and see which ones are possible and which are not I'd go for KK >>> ABR >>> Skelda as possible choices for a lynch.

Really?

I think it's great to question players not in the spotlight but ETL seems to be trying to divert attention onto yet another wagon this late into the day, which seems scummy to me.

[Elyse]

Because it's diverting attention away from the only viable wagons when we have like a day until deadline. We're getting into No Lynch territory.

But maybe I have tunnel vision because of how weird ETL acted when she first replaced in. I still can't get over that. It was unlike her.

[Elyse]

I only change my reads when there's a reason to do so.

And yes it's scummy to start a fifth wagon 1 day before deadline.

But if I changed my reads too much you'd probably be like "Elyse changes her reads too much."

That post is complete bullshit.

P-edit:
You've played 1 completed game with me. I do get tunnely.

[Elyse]

EVERYONE VOTE FOR DEADLINE EXTENSION IN YOUR NEXT POST

I vote for Deadline Extension

UNVOTE:

Sigh.

ETL's last posts have been town. God damn it. I was confident on that read.

Also, I am ABR's mason partner. Do not lynch him.

Out of (Fusion, HP, KK) I don't really have a preference but my strong townread on Fusion has gone away because I think he's buddying to ETL a lot and I think he thought she would be lynched. If she flipped town, that would make him look really good. He's even aligning his reads to her's.

Actually, screw it

VOTE: Fusion

[Elyse]

Um I'm pretty sure he didn't crumb but he called out to me to lead a lynch on HP.

But HP is a good player so even though he's misguided I want him around a little bit.

P-edit:
Yes

[Elyse]

I have a townread on KK.

ETL is my preferred wagon but

I will switch to ABR if necessary.

Makes no sense from a Mason POV. You could have just not said anything at all. Why was the bolded necessary.

I am not sure I want to lynch ABR/Elyse today but I am strongly leaning towards this being a scum gambit considering both of them are scum reads of mine.

I'm not going to say "I refuse to vote for ABR" which would draw even more attention and cause more suspicion since there wasn't much to townread him for at that point.

[Elyse]

Also, Fusion, since when are you scumreading me? You were townreading me this whole game, if I remember correctly. Is it because I didn't reply to ETL's reads? She said that was strange due to meta...

P-edit:
I never said that was a breadcrumb...

[Elyse]

P-edit:
It would be suspicious because ABR was being anti-town so when asked I couldn't really give a reason for why I refused to vote him.

And yes my PM confirms he is town. And I guess he doesn't think it's worth it to come out and reveal his mason partner. Idk. I think it's better to save the both of us and force scum to NK us rather than town lynch us.

P-edit:
Oh my god. This is so dumb.

[Elyse]

Welp.

But yeah.

If you honestly think that this is a scum gambit, involving the whole scumteam, then I really think you're misguided.

[Elyse]

No it's not. In fact there's an open setup with three masons.

[Elyse]

OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE

[Elyse]

I'm not claiming the third person. There's no need to.

The fact that ABR and I didn't mention the third one before is *wait for it* WE WANTED TO KEEP IT A SECRET.

Seriously I think it's dumb you guys want to lynch mason claims on Day 1. Why doesn't EPM check me or ABR? Implosion is being very smart about this and I think there's scum in {HP, ETL, Fusion} for trying to push this when it's not ideal.

[Elyse]

@HP
I am thinking that scum is going to kill one of us.

I'm not claiming the third.

You or Fusion probably.

I'm not disappearing at random points. I have work to do.

[Elyse]

Just to let everyone know, I won't be able to get online on November 8th.

[Elyse]

No

[Elyse]

[Elyse]

EPM is the third mason

P-edit

Basically

[Elyse]

Damn.

I kinda figured that when all the claims came out but yeah HP is def scum, probably with someone like ant or Skelda or someone. Fusion is prob town cause of his breadcrumb.

Also I went along with it because you obvtowned to me but no one else would understand it sooo yeah I just went with it and hoped you would play along.

I had fun

[Elyse]

VOTE: Humble Poirot

LMAO

EPM if you didn't check me I swear to god

[Elyse]

Sigh.

I knew this would happen. Idk if you are scum or town but PLing me is laaame. We're down another townie if you lynch me.

I'll explain why I went along with it again. ABR obvtowned to me in a way that I couldn't explain (due to site rules) and I knew that I wouldn't be able to turn his lynch around. When he claimed mason, I thought he was telling the truth. Instead of outing ANOTHER mason, I claimed to be his mason, since I was almost 100% sure he was town and it would keep the other mason hidden. When he said we had a third mason, I figured he would get his real buddy to claim and after he was lynched, his buddy would be confirmed and I would tell the truth about me not being a vig.

Everything got out of hand, though. I didn't expect everything to spiral up and have people claiming FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER. I've learned my lesson. If you want to PL me, fine, but I did it in the best interest of the town.

[Elyse]

I know I did.

I thought it would help us because I didn't think ABR would be lying about his claim. I'm sorry.

[Elyse]

Out of that scenario, though, I got strong townreads on implosion and havingfitz and a strong scumread on HP.

[Elyse]

His reaction and dealings with the mason claims was very unnatural and reeked of a scum agenda.

[Elyse]

Actually let me reread HP because I could be being swayed by ABR.

[Elyse]

I'm probably not going to be able to respond to that until like Saturday because tomorrow I'm busy and I'm busy Saturday night but hopefully I get to it during the day Saturday.

And tonight I don't have it in me.

But I will answer the questions you posed.

I thought fitz was the other mason.
I wanted EPM to inspect me because I thought I would get quicklynched today and he would confirm me but people in this game are actually smart and see that I'm town.
I claimed to be ABR's mason even though he said I wasn't because he was obvtown to me.

I'm a girl btw.

And I will post my reasons for you calling me scum eventually.

But I do want to ask you something:

Have you seen masons fake claim often?

It's never happened before to me, and I feel like your doubt about the claims and your continued crusade for ABR's lynch comes from someone who wants to lynch a mason quickly rather than slow the game down, talk about it, and decide the best course of action.

You seem like a methodical person so your "LYNCH ABR WITH FIRE" attitude pinged my gut. That's the basis of my scumread.

But I will go into more detail later.

[Elyse]

People like DGB fakeclaim masons a lot apparently. I've never seen it but I've heard of it. It was a serious question, not a loaded one.

Anyway, I've read your 412. Have your say, do you what you want. Ask me anything, you're not going to self-hammer because you're scum.

oh, btw, I just realized:

Elyse, if you are town in this game, I'm counting on you to lead the charge against HP before deadline, today.

hah! you're actually trying to reach a quick wagon on me in the last hours? In the other post you said "if you lynch me, lynch/vig HP tomorrow". That would mean you would be ready to self-hammer in order to get me.

prev-edit: right... Single mason? Or you're going to pull some BS of "I won't tell who my mason partner is"? And your earlier comments about getting lynched don't make sense in light of your claim. You're just trying to pull a lame quickvote on me in the last minute.

Here, instead of unvoting immediately like any townie would do, you assume he won't tell you who his partner is. Why not unvote and ask? It doesn't make sense. It's like you are holding out for a quicklynch before other people have a chance to comment.

furthermore, the first thing that came to mind when I read your claim, was that you might be neighbour with Elyse (due to that last "appeal" to him) but you claimed mason (which I thought was town only). So I read on the mason wiki and there's even, to my surprise, mafia aligned masons.

prev-edit:

ahahah, dude. You're sad.

Answer me.

1) Are you lone mason, yes or no? Who are you mason with, if not?

Again, instead of unvoting or even slightly believing/listening to him, you bring up scum masons (wtf) and reiterate the idea of a lone mason. I don't see town logically jumping to those conclusions.

Dude, you're scum. Otherwise, you'd have no problems actually answering me or lynching ETL (even though you don't think she is scum) or actually pushing me before the last minute with a claim that makes no sense considering your comments.

This is a bad post that looks like you are throwing everything at ABR. Why would he want to lynch ETL, as town, if he thought she was town? It doesn't make sense.

Unvote

I'm inclined to disbelieve the claim given that ABR was acting somewhat defeatist (which is silly if he did, in fact, have a real mason claim to back himself up) but yeah, we aren't lynching a claimed mason if we can avoid it

Also, lone mason isn't a thing, HP.

This is what I expect any townie to do.

@everyone_else: who's unvoting him or voting other people. Why aren't you forcing ABR to claim his partner? Why are you buying it? Aren't you aware that scum LIES?

Because what if he's telling the truth? Then we out two masons for no reason. You are trying to bully and rally support for him to out his partner when it is VERY antitown to do so. Lynching him to see if his claim holds up is better than outing his partner because then we'll have one conftown down the road.

As a sidenote, the reason I was townreading him is not immoral. I just can't talk about it until a certain game ends. I will explain it when I can.

hah, no dice. Saying you breadcrumbed him would as town, make him a target for a NK and would be effectively useless.

If you were town. You'd have no problem because doc could protect one of you and mafia would be forced to take a shot at one of you and not other PRs (like EPMI said).

You're scum although I'll give it to you. You have style.

This is another bad reason to get him to claim. You're assuming there's a doctor? That's probably wrong and if he outed his partner then we'd be screwed.

One thing I've been also thinking is how day talk and availability might affect all this. I guess I prefer classical mafia where scum can't coordinate every step of the way if they're active and organized. Without daychat, it's closer to RL mafia.

This is only a small thing, but I didn't know there was daychat until you said this.

VOTE: HP

Still not a fan of ETL. Also not keen on Fusion, EPM or Implosion. Implosion probably weakest suspicion of those listed.

Ok.
See I thought fitz was the other mason due to this but reading back, it's strange he didn't have any doubt about the claims.

HP, let's not "out the third" if there is one. We need to lynch ABR to confirm the claim.

Again, this is what a townie would say. Not "out the third mason".

Also, guys... Remember what I said about day chat. We might not really process the intrincacies while alive but I'm sure, at the end of the game, it will make for some interesting analysis to see the scum qt and these last pages.

prev-edit: yes, you can. I did it long ago.

What is the point of this post? Posts like these are made by scum trying to drop fake towntells.

i mean, like.... for fuck's sake. it would be VERY LITERALLY suicidal to claim 3 masons as scum. If they are scum, they are going to lose, and we have no reason to lynch abr.

Clearly, this is the reaction they would be going for if they are scum.

if they're scum
they will become HORRIFICALLY DISGUSTINGLY HORRIBLY obvious when they *don't die* over the course of the

next several days

rest of the game

THIS IS WHY IMPLO IS TOWN.

ETL's posts towards the end give me worry as well.

@EPM
Do you and ABR have some sort of history? Why does he hate you so much?

Although I can't resist.

List of people alive:

Elyse
aphix
Ant_to_the_max
Skelda
Kublai Khan
implosion
Humble Poirot
EspeciallytheLies (AzBlueM)
evilpacman18
havingfitz
gorckat

Filtered list, taking out all of my strong townreads/me:

aphix
Skelda
Kublai Khan
Humble Poirot
havingfitz
gorckat

And I have a townread on HP as well I think. But I'll figure out the details later.

I agree with this post, though I have aphix as a townread.

Regarding HP's posts:
I thought ABR was telling the truth so yes I did think scum would kill us. From my perspective there were only actually two masons so a protective role wasn't unlikely.
I want to discuss stuff but I do usually vote someone out of the gate to get the ball rolling.

So I think one of HP/havingfitz is scum but not both. Rereading and knowing that ABR was lying changes my perspective on fitz. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum: HP was way too skeptical whereas fitz was not skeptical enough.

Gorckat is my next pick for scum. Pushing a PL on me is an easy move for scum, and puts them with four town deaths (maybe more if there's a SK or vig or something), which is a great spot for scum to be in.

KK and Skelda are the two options remaining because they haven't done much to look town. I had a townread on KK but it was only for his attitude towards Fusion which wasn't really alignment dependent. Skelda is lurking. Ant would be there too but he's gun-clean so yeah not willing to lynch him.

[Elyse]

- I don't need to unvote because
a) I don't buy the claim
b) there's plenty of people that do that (And they did).
c) it removes pressure from the player and the player hasn't fully claimed.

A Just because

you

don't buy the claim does not mean it's false. You might be wrong. Obviously, you weren't, but what if someone came in and quickhammered just because you were too stubborn to unvote?
B Same point about scum coming in and quick hammering
C But doesn't that happen anyway with point B?

- I can't quicklynch someone when I'm already voting them. The only one calling for a quicklynch was ABR (on me) and havingfitz complied.

I know but if you keep your vote on a claimed mason at L-1, the risk of a quickhammer is very high.

Why didn't you raise these points like... ever? I get the feeling that, once I quoted you my whole ISO you've felt called out and needed to nitpick on it as much as possible.

Idk I was hyped up in the moment during the whole thing and didn't really do much of anything but defend myself. Rereading, I found this stuff (in addition to havingfitz being scummy and implo being townie)

You need to get this:
- I thought he was scum. He was awfully scummy. He even admitted it himself. You do as well, atm you're unable to say why he was town.
- I didn't buy his claim. At all. It was an incomplete claim. It didn't make sense for him to have been mason all along and act that way (saying things like "after you lynch me"). Then I didn't buy your claim because you had agreed to his lynch, at a point (as fusion pointed out). There was ALWAYS something wrong and, WCS, he was a completely destructive player.
- I was right on all accounts, except for the scum part, unfortunately.

I'm not going to regurgitate the same points over and over again but (and I know I have NO PLACE SAYING THIS) a cautious town player would have unvoted. You seem cautious. I'm impulsive and erratic, as you can obviously see.

This is a bad post that looks like you are throwing everything at ABR. Why would he want to lynch ETL, as town, if he thought she was town? It doesn't make sense.

Why would he prefer to get lynched over someone who's alignment he doesn't 100% know and who only claimed Vanilla townie? Why would he prefer to be lynched as fucking town mason? Give me a break.

That was the context, do you see it now? or do you still think it makes no sense?

Yes but you make it seem like it was scummier for him to start a wagon on someone he thought was scum (you) rather than vote for someone he thought was town (ETL).

- You claim implosion did what a townie does but implosion was never sure about ABR so his unvote came easy as cautious and doubtful town. That type of unvote can easily come as scum, since they know the panorama and it's a great thing to get as many claims as possible, specially close to deadline.

Oh! We already know what ABR is, now let's unvote him and wagon someone else!

I find it much more likely that town is uneasy about lynching a potential mason and be paranoid about everything. Scum are more sure of themselves because they know what the player will flip.

Because what if he's telling the truth? Then we out two masons for no reason. You are trying to bully and rally support for him to out his partner when it is VERY antitown to do so. Lynching him to see if his claim holds up is better than outing his partner because then we'll have one conftown down the road.

EPM and I already explained why the alleged mason must fully claim partners.

IT'S NOT DEBATABLE OMG besides the fact that early claimed masons forces scum to make NKs that are essentially useless to them, and protects functional PRs, and reduces the lynching pool, ALL GOOD THINGS FOR TOWN, ABR is clearly also flailing like hell omg

So? Are you saying EPM is all those things you accuse me of?

Yes, but he's almost conftown
You're going to say "so why am I scum for that if EPM did it and is town?" and I say "why am I scum for lying about a mason claim when ABR did it and was town?"

This is only a small thing, but I didn't know there was daychat until you said this.

I didn't know until AzBlueM mentioned it but so did you, which means you've just lied to make me look bad or have a terrible memory (And no intention to actually search for the truth with a simple "search in the topic"):

Also, why is Skelda town

because scum have

daychat

?

(emphasis mine)

I have a bad memory. This game was crawling at a snail's pace before the ABR incident and I don't remember most of it. Also, I'm playing in 3+ games with Skelda so that comment didn't stick out to me. My mistake.

Do you and ABR have some sort of history? Why does he hate you so much?

Talking about fluff questions... how is this relevant?

Just wondering.

- I get the 2 masons from your lying as town POV but I still don't get why you pretended claimed JK fusion wouldn't be killed and that ABR or you would.

Idk. I thought that the other mason would claim and we would be basically conftown. I think I'm wrong now though. But how does that have relevance to my alignment? If anything, it maybe made scum question whether they should kill a mason or the JK.

Gorckat is my next pick for scum. Pushing a PL on me is an easy move for scum, and puts them with four town deaths (maybe more if there's a SK or vig or something), which is a great spot for scum to be in.

That's easy to say. Act anti-town and then pretend that anyone who is scum is trying to policy lynch you. ABR tried that. Didn't work.

No. PLing me is the easy (and most beneficial, arguably) move for scum. And other (most likely town) players are against it. It's different than PLing ABR.

Why are you voting me over havingfitz?

Because I want to have some sort of pressure on you.

[Elyse]

Link please

Here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=31789
I was scum in that game

Wait, did havingfitz just seriously suggest that EPM could be lying? I mean, how daft can you get? If he were lying, he would be an idiot since as soon as he didn't die tonight and then continued to live the entire game we'd find out that something was up. Come on now.

Yeah...God forbid someone should fakeclaim a PR

And if you'll note...I'm not voting him. I'm saying I do not believe his claim based on his crap play in the game (pushes on ABR and now me) and his investigation. Why not investigate me or KK? Either clear or confirm on someone he strongly suspected? To investigate someone he didn't even mention, and who in my opinion comes across very town, is asinine or a lie. In EPM's case that could actually be either. I don't plan on voting EPM today because the totally unnecessary Fusion claim yesterday saved EPM last night (assuming he is telling the truth). Unless scum is dumb enough to believe the 1 shot claim I would be surprised if legit EPM survived the night. And the only time his claim does us any good (if he IS town) is when he's dead and his investigation/s are confirmed.

So yeah Skelda...I don't necessarily believe EPM's claim because it's not enough to overcome the body of his play so far. But sadly it can wait.

The point is, why dwell on it? If he is scum, we'll figure it out at some point when he doesn't die for the rest of the game. But why waste time focusing on him when you could be more useful?

Speaking of useful, what have YOU done all game?

[Elyse]

I'll get to this game tomorrow hopefully

[Elyse]

I'm fine with lynching Skelda today but it's such an easy lynch. And by that I mean he's a scummy, lurky player who will leave us in the same exact position tomorrow regardless of his flip.

[Elyse]

Sorry didn't get a chance to get on today

[Elyse]

Note: This post is for Elyse. You may skim/skip it if you are tired of me atm.

Here we go.

- Elyse. If someone quickhammers a claimed mason without discussion that's the kind of person you and I would be worrying about. Not someone who wants to maintain the pressure on what looks like a fakeclaim.

Yes but when no one did that, the next logical place to look is there.

- Your whole case on me seems to be something along these lines:

"you should've done that because I think you're cautious and cautious players do what I say they do"

. What I did wasn't reckless, despite of what you think and you should consider that other players think differently. I work hard to analyze you and find your motives for doing the awful things you did, despite our huge disagreements. You should do the same.

I am doing the same. I don't see much town motivation in refusing to unvote a claimed mason.

Yes but you make it seem like it was scummier for him to start a wagon on someone he thought was scum (you) rather than vote for someone he thought was town (ETL).

Dude. He had OMGUSed me and then completely dropped it, voted Fusion without explanation and then ETL because "he could only post to vote before deadline". Pretending he actually thought I was scum was quite a stretch. His long post on me was BS and the rebuttal is there for people to see. He never replied to that because "I hurt his feelings" and later proceeded to ignore me until that vote out of nowhere. It looked like he just wanted to save himself by eliminating those who called for his lynch (me, fusion) and that was actually true.
Furthermore, after being conviniently inactive, he tries to get ME quicklynched without explanations and with half a claim when barely anyone had shown willingness to vote me and there was 1 day left to deadline.

I can't believe you don't understand the logic of a compromise lynch in deadline. If you're a town PR and there's no time, you'll accept lynching a townie looking CLAIMED VT over you EVERY time.

Please, look at the context of his vote on me. ETL was willing to die and looked quite town (see 391) I kept pressuring ABR and finding that he was acting differently (and scummy) (392 than other games and he decided to vote me for the reasons I explained in 406.

I understand that it's much more pro-town for ABR to want to lynch ETL over himself, but obviously, we can't count on him to do pro-town things. And with a possible deadline extension, it wasn't that far-fetched to try to start another wagon.

I find it much more likely that town is uneasy about lynching a potential mason and be paranoid about everything. Scum are more sure of themselves because they know what the player will flip.

Sure but ABR wasn't just "a potential mason". He was full of crap. Read my ISO and you'll see the sequence of events.

I did see the sequence of events, and I don't see a town thought progression. What I see is scum trying to bottleneck discussion of a mason and claim and continuing to pressure it with no reservations. You were just too confident in yourself and eventually were wrong about his alignment.

You're going to say "so why am I scum for that if EPM did it and is town?" and I say "why am I scum for lying about a mason claim when ABR did it and was town?"

No. I won't say anything, I'll expect you to be consistent with what you say or explain the difference that makes him town and me scum if that's your whole case.

And your situation and ABR's is completely different. He was lying to save himself. You lied to apparently save him. It's almost worse than what he did. What you did is so damn stupid that I have a hard time accepting the reality of it as either alignment. You also have bad memory, apply your own flawed logic to everyone and remove context from what you read.

If you were scum, I'd actually think you were a bold scum trying to take advantage of ABR's situation but that would require a cunning and boldness that I do not see in you. I thought you were town and wrong before your fake claim (See my ISO) and it was only due to your getting connected with ABR that I started looking into you.

There's also the fact that I don't think that you'd vote along KK and Havingfitz if you were scum with them.

Was the point of this to insult me?
Sometimes, I play in too many games at once and I can't keep track. I was in a mini that just ended where I was scum with daytalk, and I completely forgot about that revelation here since I was used to it over there. Skelda and fitz were in that game too so yeah sorry I got mixed up.

Idk. I thought that the other mason would claim and we would be basically conftown. I think I'm wrong now though. But how does that have relevance to my alignment?

Oh my... It might be relevant to your alignment because scum will pretend things are different from what they are to get their way. In your case, it could've been:
- I'm mafia with ABR and want to save him but HP and EPM have shown that it's good logic to lynch scummy ABR and, worst case scenario, have Elyse confirmed and protected.
- If I can spin that one of the masons will get killed over EPM then we might make it.

I don't know what you want me to say. I was stupid, wrong, whatever.

If anything, it maybe made scum question whether they should kill a mason or the JK.

Bullshit. You're again removing the right context. JK hadn't even claimed yet.

JK/gunsmith, whatever.

The fact that you pretend that ABR (very likely lynch candidate) or you (just claimed mason with ABR) would get killed over an investigative role is absurd. Specially when, from your POV, it would confirm a third hidden mason AND ABR or you (And leave EPM alive to potentially clear someone else). It's simply absurd that you would think this way. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I just can't understand why you'd think this way as town mason.

This turned out longer than I expected but the fact of the matter is, I don't think you're scum atm, I do think very poorly of your play this game and I need to get you to see reason because you look like the type of player mafia will allow to live to screw up lylos.

[/quote]
Ok I know I made a dumb mistake but I'm getting really sick of these jabs at my intelligence and skill level. They are completely unnecessary. I hate admitting that I was wrong or dumb, and it's taking a lot for me to do it right now. What I REALLY don't need is an asshole who keeps reminding me of my mistakes. I get it.

My scumread on HP is stronger than fitz and I really like fitz's recent posts. I feel like he is explaining himself really well and it makes sense. HP's accusation of fitz's post being a bunch of "reporting" is a complete misrepresentation of his post.

However, I could be wrong because HP is getting on my nerves and I don't want that to affect my read on him. I feel more comfortable lynching Skelda today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skelda

Skelda has done nothing protown. While he is a lurker and an easy lynch, I actually think he's scum. In our last game, I was scum, but Skelda AtE'd and made it pretty obvious he was town. Here, I'm getting none of that and I feel like his stances are hedged and careful. Not genuine at all.

[Elyse]

It wasn't in LyLo...

[Elyse]

It wasn't in LyLo...

When else did I even post in that game? I lurked literally the entire time, but that is beside the point. It was a different context, I didn't replace into this game and never catch up until lylo.

It was on Day 4 or 5 when you were like

"Omg I can feel it I'm going to lose this for you guys."

But even disregarding that, your slot has done basically nothing of value.

[Elyse]

I'm ready to die.
Final thoughts: KK might be town... *shrug
Gorckat and Elyse aren't clear by any stretch of the imagination
If you idiots hadn't shut up about HP, he could've been an NK target and you wouldn't have to bother but now he's gonna be left alive and probably have to be lynched before endgame JUST IN CASE.
Scum, feel free to leave me alive for the WIFOM
I hope there's a dead QT where I can see more hilarious ABR rants

Um we're not that close to a lynch???

[Elyse]

Who's at L-1?

[Elyse]

Well I apparently can't count.

Never mind.

[Elyse]

Why would people on HP be town?

You don't think scum would try to push a lynch on a strong player?

[Elyse]

I do have to say I'm uneasy with how the fitz wagon has stalled at L-1.

[Elyse]

I still want to hear on gorckat/Ant before I change my vote because I still like a Skelda lynch though I am getting paranoid.

[Elyse]

Explain.

The fact that the HF wagon STALLED at L-1 and now the Skelda wagon is STALLING makes me nervous. Scum wagons stall. And yes I know that this should be a good thing but I don't think Skelda/HF are scum together and it makes me think scum is in the lurkers.

[Elyse]

If I was nervous about these wagons being stalled then I would be PUSHING them hard.

Usually stalled wagons make me more confident in my read if I'm on it/make me question it if I'm not. This is why I think scum is in lurkers because if at least one of {HF/Skelda} are scum then scum would probably be pushing the town one or bussing the other. I doubt they're both scum and if they're both town, then scum would probably be pushing either one.

[Elyse]

@Skelda
It's not an absolute, but generally, town are the driving forces behind scum wagons. Town also do not know if they will lynch correctly, so if the wagon is stalled at L-2 or L-1, only town is going to continue the momentum unless scum bus. Scum that push town wagons know they'll flip town and once it gets to L-2ish, get antsy to push it through to a lynch.

[Elyse]

Hi Titus!

Five days is plenty of time to get up your notes.

[Elyse]

That is the worst fake drunk posting I've ever seen.

[Elyse]

Not you, silly. ETL.

[Elyse]

Hello there.

[Elyse]

I'm sick and tired of all the insults to my skill level and intelligence. I know I made a mistake and I won't do it again, but it was in the best interest of the town.

PLEASE STOP BRINGING IT UP JUST TO INSULT ME. I'M SO DONE WITH ALL OF YOU.

[Elyse]

Rach is her scumbuddy, probably.

[Elyse]

I'm not flinging poo.

Rach is voting for aphix when there are two wagons that have been competing all day. Gorckat was scummy and I have a scumread on the slot. I think she's stalling and hoping for something to swing away from a scumbuddy. Out of fitz/Skelda, it's more likely to be Skelda, IMO.

[Elyse]

I just gave you support.

Not agreeing with it is one thing, but saying it doesn't exist is another.

[Elyse]

Wtf

UNVOTE:

Not again.

Not more PR claims.

I do have serious doubts about Skelda because if he really is a neighbor with Titus then the mason claims should have been obvious lies to him. (Obviously no masons and neighbors in the same game)

But if he's incompetent (I don't know the right word without sounding me, but I'm sure you're a smart person) enough to forget his own role, I guess that nullifies it...

Titus, do you talk during the day or at night? And how recently has Skelda posted in it?

[Elyse]

(Obviously no masons and neighbors in the same game)

You "obviously" did not play Serra's Fun House, also a mini normal.

Ok.

You say this as if I should know these things?

Your attitude towards me is stressing me out. It's making me think you are scum because you paint everything I do as scummy when it's not.

[Elyse]

Yeah you are. That post was intended to make me look scummy without saying why.

And I'm not forgetting how you ignore my posts after I make a good point, btw.

[Elyse]

Elyse... I honestly don't know what you think. Why don't you point out exactly where I painted what you said to be scummy and why you believe it's "painting" and not just making an observation.

And for the record, I only respond to thinks I feel need a response or comment. If I didn't respond I either find it suitable or I don't care.

The post I was just talking about! This post:

(Obviously no masons and neighbors in the same game)

You "obviously" did not play Serra's Fun House, also a mini normal.

The obviously in quotations made it have a tone that you found me scummy from it. And you agreed with me and said I gave you the heebie jeebies!

And it's fine not to respond to a comment or else this game would be 800 pages long but it's frustrating when I successfully combat your points and you keep calling me scummy for the same reasons even though I've already proven you wrong.

[Elyse]

I understand that, but you could have said:
"There was a mini normal with neighbors and masons" and provided the link or something. The way you said it paints me as scummy.

I've proven you wrong or you didn't respond to me. I assume you are satisfied with my responses when you don't respond. Here's what I'm saying:

ETL: Elyse is scum for X.
Elyse: No I'm not. Blah blah.
-ETL doesn't respond-
-Other people post-
ETL: Elyse is scum for X.

Do you see my frustration?

[Elyse]

Titus said they were neighbors.

I'm assuming they were pre-selected because who in their right mind would neighbor Skelda/Ant?

No offense, it's just that I wouldn't neighborize a lurker who could easily be scum rather than a strong townread or PR.

P-edit:

[Elyse]

I don't see Skelda forgetting his role more likely to come from scum at all. It feels to me you want to rush a lynch on a PR.

[Elyse]

Forgetting your role is one of those actions that doesn't make sense as EITHER alignment. It shouldn't be a reason to vote or unvote Skelda unless your read required an observant Skelda.

Sort of this. It's difficult to phrase well, but essentially, if Skelda is town, then Skelda forgot their role and essentially "made up" the VT claim from nothing. If Skelda is scum, then Skelda forgot their role and then fakeclaimed VT. I think the second is a simpler explanation.

Oh actually that makes sense.

Sorry I didn't understand what you meant the first time.

[Elyse]

How do we know mafia has daychat?

It says it in the rules.

Did you not see when HP quoted it?

[Elyse]

Oh ok

[Elyse]

VOTE: RachMarie

Deadline is impending and I like this lynch better than fitz.

[Elyse]

I have a townish read on fitz.

I think if Skelda is scum it will become evident in time and I don't have the time/energy to figure out what forgetting his role means about his alignment.

I think Rach is faking ignorance to seem town.

I will switch back if no one else switches but we still have some time.

[Elyse]

@HP
Yes I'd rather switch back to Skelda than fitz but the fitz wagon has more votes right now so if it's like an hour until deadline and Skelda has 3 and fitz has 5, then I'll vote for fitz because even though my read on him is townish, I still have my doubts.

But I'm hoping a Rach wagon can gain traction. As far as ETL not knowing there was daychat, I understand how you think it's scummy but it happened to me too so I can't really blame her lol.

P-edit:
Aphix is a townread of mine. What are you talking about? Why on earth would I vote for him?

VOTECOUNT 2.16

havingfitz [4]

- Humble Poirot, Skelda, aphix, evilpacman18

Skelda [2]

- havingfitz, implosion,

RachMarie [2]

- EspeciallytheLies, Elyse,

aphix [2]

- RachMarie, Titus

implosion [1]

- Kublai Khan

Not Voting [0]

-

[Elyse]

And I don't get why you are assuming that aphix is a "viable train" because Rach has a placeholder vote on him that she didn't feel like removing.

So if I unvote and vote for EPM, does that make him a viable wagon all of a sudden?

Saying I "skipped over the aphix wagon" is a misrep because there ISN'T an aphix wagon. Rach just didn't unvote when she replaced in.

P-edit:
This game is in Little Italy and unless you got a themed role (you are a named townie or something) then I highly doubt that you are incompetent enough to think this was a theme. I mean come on.

This is getting ridiculous. I know how you guys feel and it makes me feel even worse about my stupid mistake at the beginning.

[Elyse]

No not THIS game

I thought her campfire one was a theme one

I was in that one from the beginning not a replacement which means I followed the link. then after I posted, I had it in my egoposts which is how I almost always post from. I look at the larger title and if there are new posts I post, I most definitely do NOT look to see the teeny print of which queue it is in.

meanwhile I am voting for who I think is scum and if ya all lynch me it wont be the first time it happens.

In spite of this, I still stand by ETL being a town read.

VOTE: Skelda

Ohhhhhh.

I still think you're scum though.

HP, I'm not using Elyse's excuse exactly. I explained by vote in 1048. Why did you ignore the explanation? Do you find faulty logic?

I want to lynch Elyse, but I don't think I'm getting all the votes in time, so I moved to the next best target in who I perceived as viable.


Elyse, why is Aphix a townread of yours? Where do you say that? I did a control F for aph no match case and didn't see that.

Aphix's posts have all given me townvibes. He also is very brazen and bold, (like voting for your pseudo-confirmed slot) something I don't think newer scum is capable of. He has doubts on EPM too. While I think they are misguided, it gives me townvibes.

As far as my townread on him, I just control-F'ed my ISO and found 22 matches. (Some could be in quotes)

I mentioned it in 642. I haven't interacted with him much, which is true. I did early in the game and got a strong townvibe so I think I just had that in my brain and didn't worry much about him.

But these weak associative tells hours before deadline and realllllly bad.

[Elyse]

*are really bad

[Elyse]

No offense to Skelda, but if he was my buddy I would be bussing the hell out of him right now.

And the fact that no one really is is what gives me pause about him being scum.

And makes me more confident in Rach-scum.

P-edit:
Wtf?

I never said I mentioned aphix town 22 times. You said you search aph in my ISO and nothing came up. When i searched it, it came up 22 times.

And yes that is really weak. Why the hell are you voting me now? I thought I wasn't a "viable train".

[Elyse]

Ok rereading I wasn't clear enough but that's not what I meant.

[Elyse]

@Titus
I said he was town in 642.

I don't understand what more you want. Once I have someone as town, unless they become scummy, I don't say "aphix is still a townread of mine" for no reason.

You said I would try to figure out a nullread.

But he's not a nullread.

[Elyse]

Search my ISO for KK and your predecessor ant.

You won't find much!

Why?

KK was an early townread.
Ant was absent.

Am I scum with them too?

And you know damn well that just because I didn't spell out my thought progression does not mean it isn't there.

[Elyse]

ETL, walk me through your reasoning why Gorat's votes relate to RM.

Um gorkat is who Rach replaced

[Elyse]

Titus you have the worst fucking attitude possible right now and you are dead wrong.

This game was very slow in the beginning and you are taking a coincidence and trying to build a case out of it, when what you are saying can apply to almost any player on the list.

And what I really don't understand is why me having an unexplained townread on aphix makes him scum. I get that you think I'm scummy for barely mentioning aphix in my ISO (a horrible fallacy, I interact with my scumbuddies as scum) but isn't it just as easy to call town-aphix town?

I'm trying to reason with you here and show that your logic is wrong but saying that you won't stop until I'm dead is pretty damn useless, especially since scum will just keep the both of us alive to keep conflict.

[Elyse]

Not to mention that this whole convoluted theory came up when I "ignored the aphix wagon" and "didn't vote for a viable train" when there wasn't even a real wagon on aphix and you are doing the same thing right now.

You still haven't addressed either of those things.

[Elyse]

Calling people fucktards for not listening to your awful reasoning is not the way to get people to listen to you.

P-edit:
Yeah what he said.

[Elyse]

Um no I think Rach is scum.

Using the deadline as a reason to vote a smaller wagon makes no sense.

And by "multiple players", you mean 2 townreads and one inactive.

Ok Titus.

[Elyse]

Name any town game of mine and I will show you players I didn't interact with much. Go ahead.

[Elyse]

You're resorting to LaL after ABR flipped town?

What a cop out.

And don't you dare say I haven't scumhunted at all this game. That's a flat out lie. Should we lynch you now?

I explained that Rach was feigning ignorance. What more do you want from me that ETL hasn't already said? I'm not going to make up reasons to appease you.

Your reasons for voting Skelda are also weak as he'll especially considering you voted fitz upon replace in and you're NEIGHBORS with Skelda but meh I might end up back there if the Rach wagon doesn't go through.

[Elyse]

Titus' case on me is terrible, as is her attitude.

ETL's insistence on Rach scum pings me because it looked like she wanted to save Skelda at deadline. After being so confident in Skelda scum, her switch onto Rach, while understandable, looks suspect now that she flipped town. Now she wants to lynch me without any concrete evidence? This is not town ETL.

I'm thinking ETL/Skelda as of now.

@HP
Can you expound upon what you mean by fitz winning? Are you still scumreading him?

[Elyse]

Oh and before I vote for ETL or Skelda, Titus, did Skelda say anything worth mentioning in the QT overnight?

[Elyse]

Town ETL is paranoid and constantly questions herself even when she thinks she's right. She doesn't lynch someone without ample reasoning and gets attached to the game emotionally.

You were completely confident in Rach scum and the fact you are okay with lynching me without evidence puts the nail in the coffin.

And I know that confidence does not mean scum, but the ferocity with which you pushed her lynch to save top scumread Skelda seems to much like a bus gone too far for me to ignore.

[Elyse]

the ferocity with which you pushed her lynch

Please go look at Serra's funhouse. I was town there. I did the same exact thing there. The very fact that you are trying to tie it to "save top scum" is one of the reasons I keep coming back to you. You keep trying to misrep horribly.

No, you just misrepped me. Nowhere did I say that Skelda was "top scum" you were trying to "save".

You are trying to twist my legitimate suspicions into something scummy. You say "this is town me, you should know it!" and I give a counterexample. But then you go ahead and link me to a different game.

A) How should I know your towngame if you linked me to a completely different one than the ones I have been in with you?
B) Why would I take that into consideration when you say you played the exact same there as you are doing here. You are aware of this meta and competent enough to play to your town meta.

I am fine with Skelda or ETL. Skelda is probably a more common scumread among everyone else so I'll probably start there.

[Elyse]

Top scumREAD is different than top scum.

That was totally unnecessary and since you refused to respond to my reasonable qualms, I think I might be on to something.

[Elyse]

NO ITS NOT.

If you meant to say scumread, then, just say"I meant to say scumread".

But saying that I said you tried to save top scum Skelda implies that I think Skelda is a teammate worthy of saving, which is wrong.

My point was that it doesn't make sense fr you to save your top scumread.

[Elyse]

I already explained why I think you're scum. It's not for leading a wagon on town. It's for leading a wagon that opposed your top scumread.

[Elyse]

And I still want a proper response to my post about you saying I should know your town meta.

[Elyse]

Because you have played several games with me as town!!!!!!!!!!!!

So then why did you have to reference another game to make your point? I should know your meta, right?

And stop blaming me for your mistakes. I owned up to my mine. You can't own up to yours because you're scum.

[Elyse]

Ok I'm not going to argue with you now because you are clearly being irrational and pissy because I'm actually pressuring you.

I'm not telling you to "do something about Rach" like you keep screaming.

[Elyse]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not being idiotic at all. I've actually been calm through the whole exchange, even though ETL has been pissing me off the whole time.

Specifics, please.

[Elyse]

Thank you for calming down and speaking rationally.

You claimed that "the ferocity" with which I pushed Rach's lynch was indicative of scumETL.
I showed you how that was not true with the game I suggested you go look at.

No, I've never played with scum ETL. I didn't say that. You didn't show me the game to show me that wasn't true. You're lying.

You then claim that the game I directed you towards isn't relevant because you weren't in it.
I remind you that it IS relevant to my push on Rach BECAUSE RACH.

I'm not saying it isn't relevant because I wasn't in it. I didn't understand that you were specifically providing it to me because of Rach, but now I understand that. Still, you said that was your town meta and I should know it when the meta I know is nothing like you are right now.

You claim that townETL is paranoid and questions herself.
I explain that 1) IDGAF about this game because the shit going on is confusing

Yet in the clusterfuck that was Chain of Command, you still remained paranoid and questioning. (And I mean this in a good way, btw)

2) I'm literally not even interested in reading walls

And this is my fault how? I assume that you read the posts in the game.

3) I thought Rach was scum

REALLY? I DIDN'T KNOW THAT?

4) I clearly questioned my read on Skelda AND OH YEAH YOU KNOW SHE CLAIMED NEIGHBORS?

See here's what I'm saying.
-You bring up Skelda out of nowhere and begin to pressure him.
-His wagon eventually becomes big enough, and he claims. (Falsely, but anyway we find out he's a neighbor)
-His claim isn't really alignment-indicative, but you hop off. (As do others)
-Instead of getting back on, you create a new wagon at deadline.
-You are suddenly extremely confident in Rach-scum and Skelda's wagon dissipates.

If you and Skelda are scum, this makes perfect sense. You know his claim will cause some question in case the wagon goes too far, and you could get credit if he flips scum. And if you lose him, it's not like you're losing much, right? Do you understand where I'm coming from or are you still going to tell me to fuck myself?

You then say you don't understand why I'm getting all crazy.
It might have something to do with RL and shit and fucking crap going on and I told you I didn't have the patience for bullshit and you persist with the nonsense and then act like you are pressuring me and I'm buckling.

I'm sorry if you have RL issues but you are buckling under pressure, regardless of what you say. It might be because of RL but it is what it is. I can't excuse you.

Please.

If you have not figured me out by now it is because you don't WANT to.

This last line catches me because it almost seems like you're assuming I'm town here...yet you're voting me.

VOTE: ETL
Fine with this or Skelda. Interchangeable for me.

[Elyse]

Town ETL is paranoid and constantly questions herself even when she thinks she's right. She doesn't lynch someone without ample reasoning and gets attached to the game emotionally.

You were completely confident in Rach scum and the fact you are okay with lynching me without evidence puts the nail in the coffin.

And I know that confidence does not mean scum, but the ferocity with which you pushed her lynch to save top scumread Skelda seems to much like a bus gone too far for me to ignore.

the ferocity with which you pushed her lynch

Please go look at Serra's funhouse. I was town there. I did the same exact thing there. The very fact that you are trying to tie it to "save top scum" is one of the reasons I keep coming back to you. You keep trying to misrep horribly.

I'm LYING? It's on the last goddamn page.

Yes. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW YOU ACT AS SCUM IF I'VE NEVER PLAYED WITH YOU AS SCUM.

SIT DOWN.

A) How should I know your towngame if you linked me to a completely different one than the ones I have been in with you?

UUUMMMMM..... HERE YOU ARE.... TRYING TO SAY I WAS GIVING YOU THE GAME FOR A DIFFERENT REASON THAN THE ONE THAT WAS JUST STATED LIKE TWO POSTS EARLIER.

Omg.
You linked me to that game to show me how you interacted with Rach.
I said that you aren't fitting your town meta.
You tell me to look at that game.
I say that you aren't fitting the meta I have with you, and I'm not comparing it to your handpicked game when you are conscious of how you're playing.
What is the problem?

You are a dumbass.

Go read page 48 again.

Stop fucking misrepping everything I say and trying to divert the point of everything to something else.

Resorting to insults, nice. I didn't think you were that kind of player. I thought you took a stand against that type of player. Guess I was wrong.

You aren't even responding to two thirds of my posts.

[Elyse]

I am telling you to look at a game where I am acting exactly the same way towards Rach because I thought she was fucking scum and I'm fucking town and it is the exact same situation in that game and I gave it to you to prove that.

So I'm supposed to townread you for pushing Rach the same way you pushed her in a previous game when she was TOWN?
What kind of twisted logic is that? If she was scum, I could understand, but if you are town, you should realize you were wrong before and shouldn't do the same thing twice. But no, you push her for the same reason to get an easy mislynch.

Because the rest is irrational bullshit, Elyse. I'm not going to argue insanity.

No it's not. You're just calling it that because you can't respond to it.

You can easily check all my games, it's not my problem you don't want to. I am town. For the very fact that you have played with me as town you should recognize this.

I AM SAYING THAT YOUR TOWN META DOES NOT MATCH THIS GAME.

And stop treating meta like the holy grail of finding scum. People have off games, or play differently, or have a different attitude. The facts still stand that your interaction with the Skelda and Rach wagons look like you were bussing Skelda.

Even ignoring that, because of associative tells pre-flip, you are willing to lynch me for no reason, just gut, and you are currently avoiding answering things because you can't answer them.

[Elyse]

@ETL
My case is not entirely dependent on meta. But if you admit you are having an off game, then how the hell am I supposed to townread you from meta? And explain why I should townread you after you lynched Rach again as town.

@Titus
No, I have separate reasons for voting ETL besides the Skelda thing, but I am equally happy with a Skelda lynch. I'm just focusing on ETL right now.
Did Skelda say anything in the QT?

[Elyse]

@KK
Why are you arguing that I'm town if you have me as scum from PoE?

[Elyse]

ETL

Are you seriously saying that you aren't aware EPM died last night?

I find that VERY hard to believe.

I don't agree with aphix calling you a VI nor do I think Skelda is town for forgetting his role (I agree with implosion) but the conclusions he made regarding you are spot on.

[Elyse]

The first thing I do as town is look to see who died at night.

A scum, maaaaybe I might not check because I'm supposed to know who was killed, but there's always a chance something went wrong.

If ETL is scum and wanted to kill someone else but scum last minute changed to EPM, it makes perfect sense.

If I were town and thought EPM was alive today, I would A) be asking for a result and B) figuring out WHY he's still alive.

The fact that ETL has not done this worries me greatly.

[Elyse]

Ok if you aren't going to explain yourself then I'm going to assume you can't and are scum.

[Elyse]

Why you didn't immediately question why EPM was alive or who his investigation was

[Elyse]

I understand that, but I'm thinking that ETL argued that EPM was scummy enough to be kept alive, and thought her team wouldn't kill him. But then they ended up doing it.

That, or she faked not knowing he was dead to get townpoints.

I know this seems like a stretch, but if she was town and believed EPM was alive, her actions make absolutely no sense.

[Elyse]

ETL, I'm just as confused as you are, but do you expect me to believe that TOWN ETL wouldn't bother to see who was killed? Or question why the claimed gunsmith didn't die? Or ask the claimed gunsmith who he investigated?

Doesn't it make MUCH more sense for scumETL to fake not knowing who died to receive townpoints? Yes scumETL not checking who died is a little far-fetched. I didn't think it through that much but you faking it makes perfect sense.

You are criticizing my conclusions because of your mind boggling play.

P-edit:
Skelda, you can start bussing your buddy whenever you want.

ETL'S ACTIONS MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE IF SHE IS TOWN AND GENUINELY BELIEVED EPM WAS STILL ALIVE. HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

And don't you DARE call me stupid after you forgot your own role. This isn't my best game, and I know I've made mistakes, but it should be pretty damn obvious I'm town because I am much calmer/rational as scum. ETL should also know this but somehow she thinks meta is a one-way street and only hers has relevance to the game.

If you have to ask why I'm different this game than when I was scum, THEN MAYBE I'M TOWN. Ever think of that?

[Elyse]

Then replace out if you are bored and don't care.

That's not an acceptable excuse, ESPECIALLY considering that you are arguing with me about every single damn thing and then saying you don't care. That's contradictory because you just wouldn't respond if you didn't care.

P-edit:
I am saying that I'm not being calm and rational. Exactly. My ETL theory only changed from not looking at the death as scum to faking it as scum, because faking it seems more likely than not looking at the death as either alignment.

Why do you think ETL is town after her recent posting? I fail to see that. The ETL at the beginning of the game is completely different than the one now.

[Elyse]

What do you expect me to do, ETL?

I mean seriously. Do you expect townElyse to ignore the discrepancies and contradictions in your posts?

You are angry with me for pointing out things that I am supposed to point out, and it's affecting your read on me.

[Elyse]

Ok I'm done.

[Elyse]

Ok cool w/ lynching Skelda.

[Elyse]

Well everyone is prod dodging and I want to see where people stand before I move my vote.

And when there is a gunsmith claim, it's almost guaranteed that there is a vig as well, so the claim makes sense.

I understand your suspicions, especially with neither of his kills going through, but I think he's telling the truth.

[Elyse]

Ok
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skelda

[Elyse]

But I don't want my interactions with ETL to be passed off as meaningless because she's dramatic. I really think she's scum.

[Elyse]

How flexible Elyse is being is why she deserves more votes.

And HF! You were slipping off my radar, I now remember why I was scumreading you. A HF-Elyse team seems very possible.

If by flexible, you mean willing to lynch TWO people, then yes. I'm as flexible as they come.

Using that logic you should be stringing up Titus for wanting to lynch aphix and me.

[Elyse]

Aphix is scum 3 you saw it here first folks

[Elyse]

@HP
I do agree that it was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to call aphix scum but I guess I just readily believe claims whereas you are skeptical. I think your method is better against smarter players because smart scum are more likely to pull off a fakeclaim IMO. So yeah I think I need to change that about how I think. I did think aphix was townie before for being so brazen, but I'm still not positive.

[Elyse]

Do the neighbors have day talk or did Skelda just scumslip?

[Elyse]

By why did you specify "my neighbor one"?

Good job. Keep bussing!

[Elyse]

....

Seriously, stfu elyse. You're not helping. I'm asking her to clarify, and you're shutting it down. Why?

I'm not shutting it down. That is a really good question. I still think you're scum though.

[Elyse]

HP actually makes some really valid points. Especially with a scum roleblocker roleblocking EPM on night 1.

If we lynch scum, implo, and you are a town vig, I really suggest shooting to prove yourself. (Hint: shoot ETL)

[Elyse]

^^B.S.

Seriously I want to lynch Skelda NOW.

[Elyse]

Elyse, stop trying to direct the vig, especially towards a town loss.

Oh because he wouldn't have known I wanted you to shoot him if I didn't say that.

Obviously implosion is shooting who he wants if he decides to shoot if he's even a vig. There are a lot of if's in there and if you think that statement was seriously going to make him shoot you then you are being way too reactive.

[Elyse]

I don't like the way you are treating me. You honestly have no reason to act as though I'm confirmed scum. I understand you don't trust that I'm town. I understand that I fucked up on the RM lynch, but I was not the only one who made it happen. I thought I was right; like you think you are right. And we are both wrong.

I don't think you are confirmed scum. If Skelda flips town I will re-evaluate. But if Skelda flips scum I am coming for you. Sorry if you don't like the way I'm treating you. I don't want to make this game unfun for you.

The point being that your interjections about how I'm scum and how I should die don't really help to do anything but distract.

No, not really. But fine I'll stop with the sarcastic remarks.

[Elyse]

Skelda's flip seriously has nothing to do with my own alignment. That's what you don't understand. If she flips scum, and you push for and get my lynch, you're talking about losing the game. I am telling you right now that is not the way to go about things.

I am confident in my theory concerning you and Skelda and I'm not going to lose the game. Even by the miracle you are town, if we lynch scumSkelda then we still have a mislynch before LyLo.

[Elyse]

I lynched Rach to save fitz?



Here ETL is admitting to messing up with the Rach wagon yet it's still my fault. It doesn't get more transparent than this.

[Elyse]

@HP
I'm not saying I wasn't responsible for the Rach lynch. I was partly and I am definitely responsible for fucking up the mason claim fiasco. It was more to point out how Skelda is saying it's all my fault because and I did it to save HF when ETL already said it was mostly her fault.

[Elyse]

What do you think is stopping your kills then?

Scum would have rb'd EPM n1 if they had a roleblocker, jk died last night, what else?

I'm puzzled because vig and gunsmith are hand in hand but neither of your shots going through is suspicious.

[Elyse]

Short comment...

I think one of ETL or Elyse is scum. Strongly lean Elyse. I think one of the two is trying to link the other to Skelda. There is the remote possibility they are hellbent on taking each other out.

Will read for detail tonight.

VOTE: Skelda

I linked ETL to Skelda long before Skelda was a primary lynch target, and ETL said I DON'T look like scum with Skelda so I have no idea what you are talking about. If you weren't gunsmith cleared I would probably be scumreading you for false statements like the one above.

[Elyse]

ETL is saying I'm not scum with Skelda...

If I were scum with Skelda I would have bussed the hell out of him when he forgot his role. I wouldn't wait this long. And I am blatantly linking him with ETL because I think they are scum together. It's not some elaborate scheme I'm cooking up. I think they are both scum so naturally I am linking them...still don't see the problem here.

[Elyse]

@Titus
Did you forget about aphix and I as scum together? Or are you not pushing that anymore?

[Elyse]

Ok everyone saying "One of ETL/Elyse has to be scum" is definitely making me feel like people are taking advantage of our argument and trying to pull a double mislynch and possibly win the game.

[Elyse]

No it's not

[Elyse]

I know it's inconsistent with my push on ETL but it is definitely giving me doubts. I hate when people say "Oh there HAS to be scum in these two players" because that's such a silly remark to make with no evidence. It is also extremely beneficial for scum because say they lynch one and he flips town, then they can easily mislynch the next one to get two mislynches all because they influenced the town enough for them to believe "there HAS to be scum in these two players". I understand if two players claim the same role, that scenario would apply, but I don't see, from everyone else's PoV, why it's certain that ETL or I is scum.

I think ETL is obviously but for my own reasons.

[Elyse]

I think HP, KK, or aphix. Outside chance implosion, but if it's implosion, I think KK is his partner, not HP or aphix. This is assuming Skelda is scum.

HP has made some good points but I still have this gut vibe. I also think his "you might have to lynch either me or fitz" is strange. I think fitz is town but your bussing theory certainly does have some good points. I've already expressed my disdain for such "there's scum in these two" scenarios, but it is rather bold of HP to suggest that if he was scum.

KK and aphix are similar. I've had townreads on both at one point, but they haven't really done anything that makes me never want to lynch them. Gun to my head, KK is scummier, since aphix's boldness and overall game is townier, but I also think he jumps to conclusions sometimes, and not because believes in them, but because he SHOULD believe in them. If that makes sense.

I believed implo's claim initially and still do but I'm having trouble with the fact he tried to kill two people and neither worked, with the JK already flipping.

[Elyse]

That's why I'm thinking it's Skelda/ETL/HP.

But Skelda's "original thought" is fake if she is scum, so is it that strange she wouldn't use it to bus?

[Elyse]

Are you scum

[Elyse]

Really

[Elyse]

I think you're scum because town wouldn't self-hammer and stifle discussion.

But we shall see.

[Elyse]

VOTE: ETL

[Elyse]

Hard bussed Skelda + fakerage + plus using the mason thing = scum. I already called it yesterday and I know I'm right again.

[Elyse]

If it comes down to you or HP I am voting HP but I'm more confident in ETL-scum.

But I'm interested in what you'll have to say.

[Elyse]

What are you talking about? That's not my case, just basic points to add on.

[Elyse]

^^That was a good post.

Is there any way we can get an ETL lynch today because I would prefer one but HP is my second option.

Order of who I wanted lynched:
ETL
HP
aphix
fitz
implo

Can everyone do one of these? Maybe we could find a common lynchee or something.

[Elyse]

So what's your lynch order

[Elyse]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Humble Poirot

I think there has to be scum in {fitz, hp} and I highly doubt it's fitz. (Yes I know I complained about this earlier but meh I can understand it now) aphix is giving me some weird vibes and I would hate to be too stubborn and ignore aphix scum because I have such a strong stance on ETL.

I'm still scumreading ETL but everyone else townreading her is certainly giving me some pause. I feel more comfortable voting for HP.

[Elyse]

Well if someone quick hammers then implo just shoots them. Unless he's blocked again somehow.

Either way unless scum is you/implo there won't be a quick hammer. And if it is you/implo then I give up.

[Elyse]

fitz is BLEEDING town and if he' scum bravo for a great performance. I refuse to lynch him today.

Better to lynch me today than have me in LYLO.

Fitz, insulting my play and my intelligence is really low. You don't even attempt to see my point of view or ask what my thought process was. You just attack me. Like Elyse just attacks me.

I have explained my read on HP.

As far as you not understanding why I'm voting you over Elyse, well.. that isn't really my problem.

So instead of responding to his well reasoned post you decide to harp on the fact he's insulting you?

Everyone has off games. I made a huge mistake early on. I got past it. If you show some initiative and explain yourself, then maybe you will get a better response.

I don't see townETL acting like this. I see scumETL getting pissy that her and her scumbuddy are getting run up.

@Mod:
If a vig were to shoot someone and also get shot by the mafia, would the kill go through?

I'm assuming the answer is yes but just to make sure.

[Elyse]

ETL you're not even trying

You try as town

[Elyse]

Elyse...what is your view on aphix? I don't like having a 2 of 3. Can you convince me aphix isn't scum?

P.edit...ETL...you aren't even trying. If you are town I seriously mean what I said wrt PL/Vi. If you are scum...still poor play but at least somewhat understandable.

Ppedit...and still ignoring all my questions. Pro-town all the way /sarcasm

aphix is my number 3 for scum right now. If we lynch scumHP today, and implo can get a shot off on ETL or aphix before being killed, it's you, me, and the other in LyLo if the game doesn't end.
I don't have a really strong case for aphix-town aside from his boldness. I don't see it coming from scum. His willingness to question implo's claim and actively attack him reads as a risky scum play. I think it'd be safer for him, as scum, to stay low and nightkill implosion.

But that's because he's new and inexperienced...boldness is not a towntell for experienced players IMO.

Excuse both of you. Neither of you have the right to tell me if I'm trying or not. Especially you, Elyse. You are clearly scum lying about my meta.

Giving reads and going after my preferred lynch is what I'm supposed to do and is what I am doing.

I have no desire to continue arguing with people I believe to be scum.

I'm not lying about your meta...are you saying you don't try as town? Because you certainly did in Chain of Command and Feirei's game.

Here's a hint:

I caught Skelda. Early. And when I flip town, guess who's going down next?

You and your partner Elyse. That's who.

Yeah you caught Skelda after you diverted the lynch away from him onto Rach Day 2.

It doesn't count when you already know who the scumteam is.

[Elyse]

INTEREST LEVEL has nothing to do with SCUMHUNTING.

You can not be interested in the game but still actively try to scumhunt.

I'm not saying you are uninterested, just that you are screaming that fitz and I are scum for reasons that are only concerned with our attack of you. That is not active scumhunting. That is scummy behavior.

[Elyse]

How is it scummy when I know I'm town and you have yet to bring a solid case against me?

I have brought a solid case against you. And I don't know your town. In fact I don't think you are.

I have explained how your attack has been flawed and your arguments of my meta are flimsy and incorrect.

No you haven't. You've whined and whined and complained that my meta of you is wrong. I've retorted and explained why it's right and you just whine and say it's wrong again.

I have pointed out the

clearly verifiable actions YOU have made IN THIS GAME

that prove you are scum.

Your case is basically "Elyse is pushing me so she's scum".

I have analyzed the VCs and read through ISOs several times looking for associations with Skelda. (Oh and guess what I found?)

Really? Please share this VCA and your findings. Why haven't you done this already? And I've already explained why YOU make sense as scum with Skelda and fitz did a great job of explaining why him and I DON'T fit as scum with Skelda. But then you ignore it and say you're right.

And I'm not scum hunting?

Unless whining about others attacking you for your scummy play is scumhunting, then no.

Please go fuck yourself.

Uncalled for.

[Elyse]

Sorry. Give me a day or so. Gonna go look through Skelda's ISO again.

I don't think scumFitz would do all of ^^^ that work and still give away that he actually thinks I'm town. I'm a nice easy lynch that I think is attractive to scum. So why is Fitz the wagon? Because scum are already on there.

Well the only one on the fitz wagon is HP and you're voting for me...

@fitz
I think it's ETL and HP. Her vote on me makes no sense and her backtrack on you seems very forced and reluctant.

Hopefully implo can get a shot off.

[Elyse]

He already said he was 2-shot??? Unless I'm remembering wrong.

I will accept your help in lynching HP. Hopefully I was wrong about you. But I still think you're scum.

Why do you think a vig indicates only 2 scum? I think a serial killer would indicate that but not a vig. Have you seen that before?

[Elyse]

Please don't tell me it's ETL/aphix.

[Elyse]

It's not game over no matter what because implo still has a shot. If it goes through and hits scum we can still win.

This is assuming HP flips town of course.

[Elyse]

I'm not being dumb. Let's say HP flips town and there are two scum left.

That makes it 3v2 going into the night with a vig shot. If the vig shoots scum, it's 2v1 in LyLo.

So if HP flips town then implo is obv shooting aphix and if he flips scum then he shoots you or aphix. I would prefer you because I don't see aphix quick hammering his own partner in MyLo.

[Elyse]

I guess we'll wait for the flip.

If HP is town and your shot goes through we should be fine but if it doesn't then we're screwed.

[Elyse]

Elyse you owe me an apology.

No I don't. I was scum. I did what I had to do.

Here's our QT if anyone is interested:
http://quicktopic.com/50/H/vCm96XGBiTJDs

I really enjoyed this game. I'm sure it was very frustrating for many of the townies but it was really fun and suspenseful from my PoV.

@Jacob
Thank you for stepping in and modding! You did very well!

I liked the setup a lot. It was very cool.

[Elyse]

You wanted to lynch me the whole game -.- why

You were
-town
-emotional
-mislynchable
-one of the only people who didn't townread me

[Elyse]

I guess I should say I THOUGHT you were mislynchable. But you would've been a tough one but meh.

Thanks though.

[Elyse]

Thanks!

[Elyse]

Thanks fitz!

[Elyse]

What do you think of the job you did ABR?

Ekyse...talk about your mastin claim.

Lol when ABR AtE'd to me it was really town and I was scared he would go on a crusade to lynch me at the end. When he claimed mason, I thought it would make me look good to claim too, since it would keep the other mason hidden. I also felt like too many townies were being townread by each other at that point, and ETL getting out of lynch was really annoying. So, I went for it and it paid off!

[Elyse]

^^You really scared me with the whole "aphix and Elyse are scum!" bit because you were spot on lol

[Elyse]

Ok, how should I have got y'all to lynch Elyse at the deadline?

I'd like tips on how to improve my play for next time.

You can't lynch me.