Mini 388: DOOMsville II {Game Over!}

[Adele]

Hi!

I'd like to apologise for my predecessor's disappearance, and get straight on with reading through the game. In the meantime, does anyone want to summarise the major controversies going on at the moment?

[Adele]

Given Ozy's response to Turbo's analysis,

vote: Ozy

. He shows signs even in this post of wanting to learn by rote how to appear townie; this isn't the first concern of a genuine townie.

[Adele]

Sorry for my absence, I'm afraid I can't post now til later.

[Adele]

Sorry, Ozy, to clarify: are the

only

reasons you're voting me because of the whole "false dilemma" thing and because I took a little time to get into it, posted once (criticising and voting for you, hmm...) and then disappeared (from the site at large) over Christmas? Well, I can only apologise for semi-lurking over the last couple weeks, but I feel happy defending Falcone's "false dilemma", not least because Falcone asked a question that was then ignored. The accusation was, as far as I can tell, a simple distraction technique of SL's so he wouldn't have to answer the question.

"Why did you vote me? Because of X? Y?" would have been a better wording, but this is a million miles away from "either you're the doc or you're scum; which?". I might tell my friends that I'm gonna buy a skirt, and they might say "ooh! a flippy knee length, or a gorgeous swishy floor length for formals?" knowing, as they do, that I'm unlikely to buy a mini. If a mini were on my mind though, I wouldn't snap back "Well now that's just a false dilemma you know there are skirts that don't fit into either category"; I'd know that they were just speculating. I'd say, "Nah, I was considering a mini" and they would say "Erin I beg you do not buy a mini" and I'd say "ok"

To conclude, you'll note that posts I make with this kinda timestamp tend to be digressy and have a tendency to turn into novels. Nevertheless, Ozy's vote=weak, SL's false dilemma accusation=weaker and overly convenient, but longer ago. Vote stays.

[Adele]

That's only a week, though; it's not like Ozy's out of danger now, since it's unlikely anyone's gonna do anything extraordinarily scummy in say the next 72 hours. With that in mind, and the point that we want to avoid a no-lynch so if Ozy's got something to turn us off him we need to know now to have time to change direction on this. So, I'd like to request that Ozy claim now.

[Adele]

Fair lynches become tougher under deadline. At some pint, you have to switch focus to "best" lynch. What's the best lynch we can make right now, given that the info we have right now might be all the info we'll have by day's end?

[Adele]

And I am also wary of Adele, who I believe has maintained a single focus thus far in this game.

Well, of course, that's a less dramatic statement than it would be for most; I've only been in the game for a couple weeks. At first, I wasn't liking what Ozy said and I wanted him to defend himself; now I'm apprehensive that unless he comes out in force it'll come down to Ozy or no-lynch, and I take major issue with no-lynch, so I want him to present the strongest defence that he can, including claim, as soon as humanly possible so everyone has a chance to respond

and

we have time to hunt out someone bettet

and

have enough time to build a bandwagon to the point that we don't end the day, not with a bang, but a whimper.

...run-on sentences ftw? Sorry

[Adele]

Classic improbable role. Scummy to claim, but then sometimes people actually get that role. Dammit.

...My vote stays. I'm not gonna unvote on that basis. Not today.

[Adele]

you are probably right MBL, but i just wanna know if you are vanilla or not. I am pro- town, and I am taking a stab in the semi lit doors of my mind, if others think I am stupid and should let it go. I will, but I am taking a stab at scum hunting and want to know. If others dont think it is a good idea, I will lay off.

Yuk yuk yuk
So you're asking him to claim not because you have outside info, like say you're a flavour cop or something (as I'd asumed) but just because yoiu think he's scummy? You shoulda laid that right out, not murmured around it.
And since when has it been anything but stupid for people to claim at a single person's request?? MBL's objections are fair. Premature claims can be really harmful to town - very occasionally

devastating

. There really should be a majority stated pro-claim opinion (typically preceded by a bandwagon or an accusation) - one (or two) persons' suspicions is nowhere near enough.

You don't want a defence first? You just want to give his most valuable secret (if he's pro-town; if he's scum, absolutely nothing) away to you because you vaguely don't like, like... something?

If you think he's scummy, say why and maybe I'll sheep. What you're barking atm's unconvincing and pisses me right off.

(nb: GMT)

[Adele]

I'll need to think a bit about it (sorry, I'm in a hurry but I think that this is all moving very fast so if I want you to know my concerns I've got to raise them not), but my knee-jerk reaction is that a mass-claim does not seem like a great idea right now, necessarily.

I'd like to put in a tentative

objection to a mass-claim

; I might withdraw that later, but I'm not liking your steamrolling, SL, although I do think you're town - I think you're being too enthusiastic,

[Adele]

Seems to me that, in a balanced game, mafia have the advantage in night-choices and town in day-choices, so throwing the lynch away (btw, we could just as easily go to night by voting "no lynch") seems foolhardy to me, regardless of whether we have 2 cops or (much more commonly in a mini) just the one.

[Adele]

Adele - voting no lynch is much, much worse than lynching Ozy assuming his claim is true.

??? I followed your point up to here - and you had a fair point. But this, I don't get at all. If Ozy's claim is

true

, how is lynching him functionally different from no-lynching? Or was that a typo; did you mean "a lie"?

[Adele]

lol.. don't worry. I don't know why klebian is scum either.
I still would like ppl to comment on whether or not a second cop should come out if there is one. I would like to confirm Shadowlurker's sanity. If we can do that, then we're virtually there unless the doc falls tonight.

No, he/she shouldn't. With the info we have at the moment, it could well just split the doc's focus tonight and give the sucm an ok chance of downing the useful one. It may also be that they also have results that don't indicate their sanity type, or that both cops are sane, or both are somehow nonsane (such as a naive and an insane). In any case, the info's as much use or more tomorrow than today, and if SL gets a guilty result tonight, we'll know for sure that he's insane or sane (and a fair number will know he's sane, and others will probably be able to induce it)

I think we're getting a little OT here. People are speculating about the setup, arguing about claiming, massclaiming, no-lynching, second-test-lynching, discussing mod-metagaming... it's seriously distracting us from our core business: catching scum. Nor do I want people to state their allegiances in the hopes that someone's going to wrap it up tomorrow.

Forget

tomorrow for now, please, and let's focus on playing today as solidly as possible.

[Adele]

Having gone back and reread today, i am just confused. I feel so out of my depth here. When adele says she doesn;t want people to state their allegencies, i am sitting there going "well, won't everyone say they are pro-town?" I have just gone and read the set up for 373, and now i am even more confused i believe none of you...

Lol. That whole post was badly written. I'm talking about things like this:

Yeah, all that is true about klebian, though I can't say it surprises me. However, we do need klebian give us some substancial suspicions now.

I might be misunderstanding this, but Pat seems to be saying that there's a case on klebian, so klebian needs to say who he finds suspicious. I'd've thought Klebian should be defending himself, not looking for people to accuse. Requests for people to post lists of who they do and don't trust, ostensibly for later examination, smack (very vaguely) of a distraction technique, maybe to gloss over a scum who's throwing out tells. That's what we should be looking at, and for.

[Adele]

Geez, this game's so

fast

. I keep looking, thinking "I'll catch up later" then next time I check in there's loads more!

Klebian is suspicious because he hasn't been posting anything about his suspicions. So by telling us what he thinks of the game, that is a type of defense, really. When a player has to make up suspicions on the spot, it's sometimes easy to notice... we'll see.

Yeah, but we need generic contributions, not just, "Oh, I suspect X, I guess, the most, then Y". The analysis he's doing atm looks good to me, if it keeps up.

[Adele]

Yeah, but we need generic contributions, not just, "Oh, I suspect X, I guess, the most, then Y". The analysis he's doing atm looks good to me, if it keeps up.

I feel I have to disagree. The analysis he's doing is partly a summary of the game and partly using logic that doesn't seem to make sense.

The summary is useful, and the analysis makes sense to

me

. The points he's made against SL, Turbo and (to a lesser extent) you, Patrick, all seem sensible, whereas your rebuttals do not.

For example, at one point, as Klebian pointed out, you said:

If you vote Shadowlurker, you're saying that you think scum are more likely to lie about where they had a vote than a pro town player, which I don't think is true.

I think any given lie is more likely to be given by scum than a pro-town player. Scum could easily hope that they can move their vote to a safer/more useful location without a good reason this way without people necessarily noticing and, if they do, assuming it's a mistake. This is not LAL territory, but it definately looks like a tell to me, as does you jumping in to defend him rather than letting him explain for himself why he really

did

move his vote, then. I also agree with the :badposting: he then went on to give you.

[Adele]

So, we have an anonymous daykiller...

Well, I don't think it was a modkill.

Don't think? Are you taking responsibility or speculating? If the latter, I agree; I can't imagine a mod not taking responsibility for a modkill.

[Adele]

Well, Klebian's analysis weakly associated Patrick with SL and Turbo, didn't it? Maybe that was a factor (insert the various levels of WIFOM here until, even if that's true, it doesn't tell us anything about who did it)

[Adele]

Oh, not again.

Just because Friday is possibly a really sensitive person and Kilmenator confused a bunch of games together doesn't mean they cant be scum. Yes, it would be scummy to attack them *because* of these things, but I didn't do that. I raised legitimate points, and to have people to just reduce them to "whatever basis he can" is frustrating and just not true.

Well, anyone can be scum. My question is, is pressuring people who've shown a history of reacting badly to pressure in past games a pro-town action on day 1? I mean, the "easy target" accusation makes some kind of sense to me. I'm not making that accusation, Turbo, I'll need to look back at Day 1, but I'm saying that a pattern of focusing unduly on players known to act scummy when not scum early on

might

be a scumtell.

I'm very concerned about discussing the Patrick kill for frivolous reasons. If someone has something worthwhile to bring to the table, great, let them, but frankly I can see both pro-town and anti-town reasons for killing Patrick and so how is baseless speculation going to help?

[Adele]

I'm concerned that you're so willing to trust me, gerain.

does it seem like i trust you?

your post 509, you went to great lenghts to tell everyone you thought Patrick was pro-town. i just found it odd after the fact that Patrick's towness is proved, you made it so clear to everyone you always thought he was town. you also throw in that you also found him scummy too. the whole tone of that post i found weird, but MBL seems happy with you so despite my weird feelings about you, i have nowhere to go with them.

This post read very much like you trust MBL; why else would his support of Kil be relevant?

[Adele]

Kil, re bbcode: More likely, your profile's set up wrong (since it keeps happening). Click "profile", then scroll to about halfway down "preferences" - you should have the "always allow bbcode" set to "yes".

I'd like to request a

vote count

[Adele]

Eesh, I hate this - I feel like I'm wading through treacle. We're on page 23 already? It's heading to be a long game, and with no-one doing anything singularly scummy, saying anything outrageous or (at a pinch) annoying me ; how am I gonna figure out what to do?

[Adele]

lol.

That's

what you thought, Klebe? No wonder I couldn't make head nor tail of that whole discussion; that interpretation never occurred to me (or, like, anyone else apparently)

[Adele]

klebian, when you first said you were doing this analysis (back in mid-january) I was really expecting it to fully materialise before now. You held us off by giving us some, but the most important bit is still missing, and now we have a deadline. Until the analysis appears,

vote: Klebian

[Adele]

We can test it again if we have to but we shouldn't be worrying about him at the moment.

/agree

Sorry, but I'm holding off unvoting for now. Either the complete analysis or (as Turbo says) some reactions to the current gamestate would satisfy me. Certainly don't feel like I want a PBPA because I like making people jump through hoops

[Adele]

For me, 1 tracker + 1 watcher = 1 cop in balance (very approximately). There's definately a symmetry to having both. Unusual, yes, since mods tend to prefer having a cop in, but not "implausible".

[Adele]

I'll be disappointed if he goes unless he's scum seems like trying to cover up that he already knows ozy will be scum.

OK, so it's an accusation, not a question.

I had to read klebian's quote 3 times before I got it. I seem to be incapable of understanding posts with even slightly imperfect grammar lately. So:

"I'll be disappointed if he goes unless he's scum" seems like trying to cover up that he already knows ozy will be scum

/agree, but I don't know if this accusation can be "answered" like a question could. What can gerain say in reply except, "well it might seem that way to you but it's not"?

[Adele]

You mean you understood it?

I still don't.

Like I said, how can he be knowing Ozy was already scum if Ozy

wasn't

?

But Ozy hasn't died yet. Maybe he

was

... er,

is

.

I mean, I think what klebian was getting at is that gerain's "I'll be disappointed if he goes unless he's scum" looks like someone trying to oppose a lynch but hedge their bets for the eventual discovery that ozy's scum and therefore gerain was opposing a lynch on scum.

Like, gerain's trying to push the "this is a stupid wagon" card but at the same time the "if he comes up scum, it's on record I never said he definately wouldn't" card.

[Adele]

*thirds*

On balance, I think I'd prefer we don't massclaim today, although I'm not diehard against it. It's probably not going to keep up much longer in any case, y'know? If we have a doc, the scum are probably pretty near to guessing who he is, or to giving up and picking a safe NK target. If the doc picks wrong and the scum pick well, we may lose the doc tonight. But, yeah, I'd prefer we don't massclaim.

[Adele]

I have submitted my check of geraintm.

you are investigating me as your day cop activity? good i'll come up as a good guy...

:sigh:
That's not good. An investigation of a bad guy is more useful than an investiagtion of a good guy, right? Big picture, geraintm.

Give us a scum a day, that's all we ask.

heh. I misread that as "Give us scum a day, that's all we ask" originally I thought "Wow that's unusually anti-WC of MBL, but nice of him I guess..."

I have been pointing out he could very well not be an unlynchable townie he could be a townie who was lynched and comes back as a scum.

Isn't vampire kind of a zebra?

[Adele]

i am town and want more confirmed townies. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to come up as scum being town, that would have been hard to explain...
if i were scum, i wouldn't have wanted to have been investigated at all. obv would have been more useful if he had investigated someone else and come up with a guilty verdict on them.

You want confirmed scumzars more than confirmed townies, right? And you (from your POV) are a townie. Hence, it's

bad

that you got investigated.

I have been pointing out he could very well not be an unlynchable townie he could be a townie who was lynched and comes back as a scum.

Isn't vampire kind of a zebra?

What do you mean here? vampire zebra?

Zebra is a slang medical term for an obscure and unlikely diagnosis from ordinary symptoms.

It derives from the aphorism "When you hear hoofbeats behind you, don't expect to see a zebra," which was probably coined by Dr. Theodore Woodward, a former professor at the University of Maryland, Baltimore, School of Medicine.[1] It is also phrased as "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."[2]

I guess "improbable role" would've been better, but it foolishly didn't occur to me that you'd be unfamiliar with it, since I've some across it several times in Scrubs, ER and (I think) Casualty, and have used it in casual discussion without trouble.

[Adele]

lol. Vampire Zebra went bye-bye!

[Adele]

The problem I'm having here is, it's doubtful there is an SK considering how the night's have gone.

I'm not certain, but I think there is an SK.

[Adele]

Sorry for my absence.

Unvote

. I'm going to have to check MBL's reasoning (also the last VC's several pages back) so I'm not voting Kil

yet

, but I could definately see it happening in a short while. I also want to reread the geraintm backstory - I'm getting good vibes from Turbo, less good ones from geraintm (the MBL ones aren't great, but I don't recall offhand if that's maybe partly from another game - or because RR keeps telling me I'm wrong about him).

Against massclaim - with MBL on that for deffo.

[Adele]

I think I have a problem with MBL.

Ozy was killed by a serial killer, I think. In retrospect, he was axed right after I expressed the difficulty scum would have in getting him killed, and I think an SK probably looked at that and said, "Shit, I can't win as long as that guy's in the game so he'd might as well go now." The alternate explanation is that town looked at him and suddenly decided he was the scummiest player in the game, and no one's remotely expressed that thought besides kil, who claims not to have killed Ozy. It looks like an SK dayvig kill.

Here he's saying that an action that benefits the town has a scummy timbre to it. I happen to disagree with that, both as a rule and in this specific case.

If there are two scum left and SL is a real cop, then those scum are kil and Turbo. If there's just one scum left, they're probably not an SK, they're pure mafia.

He's extremely happy saying exactly how things are, how they must be, based on reasons that don't seem nearly strong enough to support such very strong opinions.

SL could also be a naive cop. Or scum. His failure to identify a single scumbag in three tries is notable.

Well, about one in three players is scum, usually, but the modkills on day 1 balanced it more towards town, so it's hardly statistically significant, is it? And I'm sure MBL knows that.

He goes on and on about what other people should say, what they should put out there. God forbid anyone except MBL keep anything to themself when he's about! I don't trust him. I think he's digging for info, looking for ways to tranform meacre evidence into highfalutin theories that don't necessarily follow. I don't want to give examples. I'm worried he's waiting for someone to point out the gaps in the logic so that he has that bit more to twist out of that person; that he's tempting information out of townies, not scum.

I won't vote in the next 24 hours, and as it happens I'm out of town on Monday, so I can promise I won't act on this for at least 48 hours. But I'm tired of MBL having swome kind of free pass because someone seems under the impression he once implied he might be the doc! I want more.

I want a claim from MBL.

[Adele]

Adele, saying I have a free pass with three votes on me is laughable.

I also think you're doing a magnificent job of dodging my questions about an SK daykiller. You know perfectly well the reasoning by which I arrive at that conclusion, and yet you try to paint me as anti-town because I think daykilling Ozy was WAY sketchy, and added to the daykill of Patrick, it looks like we have an SK, which means that YES, the killing of Ozy and Patrick is anti-town.

Fine, I'll say it: you're assuming the person who killed Patrick (an action which hurt the town) is the same person who killed Ozy (an action which helped the town).

[Adele]

well,
1)

If the people thinking that were town, they should have said so in town discussion, right? "I think Ozy's scum."

People discuss things openly with the town to ty to influence the lynch. If someone's tring to decide whether to vog someone or not, they aren't going to muse about it at length and make their role obvious to all, are they? That's like a cop saying in twilight "I really don't trust chaotic_diablo" then first thing next morning saying "oh I changed my mind I now 100% do trust him". Are they sneaky for not saying that, or merely non-stupid?

2)

And I still hold that the reason he was killed is because he can't be lynched, and thus a threat to scum of any flavor. Right before he was ganked I pointed that out and BOOM, the SK nailed him.

Looking back, I can't see where you said that. I can see where you said unlynchable scum's tough on the town, but not this. Seems pretty relevant to me.

so:

Adele, before I claim please let me know if this line of reasoning makes sense.

No, it doesn't. If you show me that quote, it'll make some sense, but still not nearly enough.

[Adele]

I'm more the type of vig who looks for town approval. If no one but me thinks a guy's scum, I have to be pretty confident in order to kill someone and randomize the game like that.

I'll look into those quotes, maybe I got confused but we'll see.

I don't understand. I thought from this your prior post that you just wanted to clear up one issue and then you'd claim, not stall some more. Check it out:

Adele, before I claim please let me know if this line of reasoning makes sense.

My patience is really starting to wear thin. It's a double standard.

[Adele]

Adele, on a side note, can I tell you that wikipedia is NOT a teacher's friend. I had a kid look up Andrew Carnegie, for PA history, fourth grader, by the way. See what it says about him... it will give you a good laugh, especially with the perspective that a fourth grade girl found it! Ps. It has something to do with "Mr. Steele"

I couldn't see it. Tell me later, though, because this is pretty O/T.

[Adele]

So my claiming is the only thing that'll move this game forward?

Man you guys are lazy.

It's not laziness on

our

part, but protracted postponements on

your

part to the point that we don't seem willing to put up with it any longer.

[Adele]

That's the problem with claimed vigs, isn't it? Hang on...

And, what if I lied about who I tracked last night to see what you would claim? What if now I know that you lied? Would that then make you scum?

Just saw this. If you're saying what I think you're saying, Kil, then I'll be voting MBL now.

[Adele]

This doesn't seem to jibe with what you were saying eariler, I have to say. Also, the suggestion that there's one scum left out there... are you trying to say the game started with a scum team of 2? Seems unlikely.

Since I wasn't particularly scummy at the time, I'm 95% sure we have a doctor. Since scum's kill also didn't go through, I'm thinking they targeted Ozy as well.

wouldn't Ozy have been vamp'd by then?

I trust Kil so very way more than MBL right now. If he confirms that he's saying what he seems to be saying, I'll happily vote/hammer MBL.

[Adele]

Adele, you have a longstanding policy about lynching all liars. I'm fascinated to see you abandon it so conveniently right now and ignore kilmenator's transgression.

Please elaborate on your inconsistency.

(And note the quicklynch in motion.)

That's right, I do. Did Kil actually say he didn't target you though, or just imply it?

In any case, I believe #756, so that has me thinking that you lied too. So, why not lynch you today and Kil tomorrow? - assuming the game's still going, of course. You have my word that if we lynch you and you come up town, I will vote and heavily persue Kil, and even if you're scum, I expect some shuffling of feet from him.

I certainly don't think that, given two liars, we should focus first on the one who was honest about it. That makes no sense.

Hmm, but why are you not chuffed about this if you're telling the truth though, MBL? Obviously if you're telling the truth Kil's antitown and he'd die tomorrow anyway; a one-of-each swap bringing down, according to your theory, the last scumzar. But you seem pissed, as if you were lying about being pro-town, and a one-of-each hurts your WC chances so much more.

[Adele]

Like I said, you don't have to trust me. But if you give me a vig target I'll prove to you that I am who I say I am. (As best I can.)

I'm really not sure I want to leave scum living to go around killing the town. If you were to convince the rest of the town, and if you and Kil are claiming mutually exclusive descriptions of last night's events, I guess he'd make sense as a target for you - but I don't know whether that should happen tonight or tomorrow - heck, why not let Kil decide?

I think Ozy could have been converted any of several nights, but I didn't have that information available when I vigged him the first time.

The "unlynchable lynched ---> scum" looks very vampirish to me; I'd expect he was converted when we lynched him. Even if you're right, why would scum try to NK someone they could convert?
What am I missing here? It makes no sense.

Though yes, I do want to hear from Kil.

[Adele]

Kil's a she, and naturally I'm not impressed to see people going after the vig. It's the kind of behavior I'd expect from scum... to try and knock protown kills down from two a day to one a day right away.

And that nonsense about kil implying anything... she stated her claimed target plainly as day, I believe. You sure are stretching to achieve your desired goal, Adele, rather than following where the logic leads you.

I repeat, my role is provable. I'll vig whoever you want, probably kil if she comes out with a phony result, and if the game's not over, axe me or try again. It's not complicated. We whack two potential scum a day and they only get one of us. It's a no-brainer, it seems.

Need to hear from everyone on the current situation, don't let people skate by without comment regardless of your prejudices. If you take hasty action I guarantee you you'll be in hot water tomorrow.

Don't worry, I'm not about to vote tonight. You're actually starting to convince me...

if

you do take town guidance. Are we talking about you vigging the runner up at lynchtime, or some other voting method? Because I certainly don't think it should be your decision (or, come to that, mine), but a group call.

And I really

do

hate liars.

As to me "going after the vig", the problem with vigs is that they're exactly the same as scum except for their alignment (which scum always lie about) and their commonness (they're rarer). I mean, say you're lying about being the vig. Then you're (presumably) scum. Then you can kill. Then you can "prove" your viggyness.
That's the problem with vigs.

[Adele]

Agreed. I'll shut up for a while now.

[Adele]

And as I was thinking about it, I realised kilmenator really threw me for a loop there with the "deliberation with town" stuff. How does an unclaimed vig seek approval from town?! Quotes like:

Also, you say if you were a vig you would take the town's opinion, where have you done that?!!!

are purely misrepresentitive.

Turbo, I saw this in the preview window. I was about to post the... opposite. Something MBL said earlier really stood out for me, and it's this that kil's referring to,

I'm more the type of vig who looks for town approval. If no one but me thinks a guy's scum, I have to be pretty confident in order to kill someone and randomize the game like that.

This really stood out for me. Where's the line between justifiable disinformation and scummy dishonesty? I mean, you in particular sought to discuss the daykills and the implications of them; you in particular said they were scummy.

also,

I'll be happy to kill whoever you guys want tonight or tomorrow to prove my ability.

I assume this was a mistake, since your description of your role precludes your killing tonight. Which seems, by the way, a

really

weird mistake for someone to make about their own role; I can't imagine forgetting when I can and can't kill. Again, the possibillity that you're making it up as you go along seems another shade more likely.

Kil, as I understand it, you believe so very strongly that MBL's scum that you're willing to bet the game on it. However, if the rest of the town is not, then that's just how it is; betting your life doesn't help your case, as it's not a valid part of the argument.

[Adele]

This really stood out for me. Where's the line between justifiable disinformation and scummy dishonesty? I mean, you in particular sought to discuss the daykills and the implications of them; you in particular said they were scummy.

If this is addressed to me I have no idea what you're talking bout.

No, addressed at MBL. The post was written, then I saw what you'd said and added the paragraph up top. I knew it was less than perfectly clear but was much, much too lazy to entirely redo the post.l

[Adele]

It is funny, because of MBL's claim, anything that he has said is basically whiped away by him saying that he had to disguise his role. That is complete crap.

Hmm.
MBL, can you point me in the direction of another game where you've been the vig?

[Adele]

Bond Villain, where I lived like .8 seconds and never used my vig but made a big stink about a "vig" kill I didn't make so it'd appear I wasn't the vig. Crappy game.

Hmm. Nice vig. Wasn't me, but cheers to whoever agreed with me that Pooky was scummy. A bold vig, but a good one.

That's entirely different. You're claiming not-vig, but in the same way docs are

famed

for claiming not-doc ("the first person to congratulate the doc is the doc or scum").

We've got no pattern to look at, and you really have seemed to engineer an excuse that "I had to false-breadcrumb so you can't use what I said before like at all". So, questions that appear to need answering:

1) Why did you vig Ozy when you didnt find him scummy, and this you say was because you tried to NK him and found him to be town and later vig'ed him?
2) Why did you kill patrick?
3) How can we trust you given the "My posting record needs to be ignored because I was trying to throw them off" gambit? Wouldn't that be a very convenient gambit for scum to take?

I too want more weigh-ins. I'm not yet ready to say "oh wait 'n' see" on MBL; at this point in the game I want some kind of win-win plan to enact, you know?

[Adele]

The only good news is, and remember this in case I die and become confirmed:

you'll be able to figure out who scum is based on the proportionality of how they're questioning me, most likely.

Oh, yuck. You do realise how this looks to me, MBL? Like, "stop asking questions or you'll be a likely lynched tomorrow (if you're wrong)". Well, I'm sorry, I have concerns. What happens if we're in LyLo tomorrow and we know you can kill but not your alignment? What if we have to bet the game on a guess of whether you're scum or not?

Also, I radically disagree with the suggestion that Ozy could've been recruited "anytime"; it makes so much more sense to me that the day 1 lynch was what went him over the edge, so your reasons for vigging Pat and Ozy seem contradictory to me. But I can see why they weren't contradictory from your perspective - kinda - so, okay.

I'm almost certainly not going to vote MBL today. I think he's a bad lynch, who can be either disproven tomorrow, add a kill to the town's balance, or disobey the town's dictates and show himself a Bad Guy making tomorrow's lynch easy/safe. His answers have their problems, but a test is a better solution to that problem than a lynch.

MBL: But

seriously

dude, what, should I clam up when what people says seems contradictory and odd? That whole point you raised seemed worryingly appeal-to-fear-y.

[Adele]

Seems to me, someone asks you to lynch 'em, do so.

vote: kilmenator

and I'll give you what you're asking for later tonight MBL.

[Adele]

summary:
ShadowLurker: has been riding on copness, needs to actually contirbute (maybe post, which he hasn't done in like a week)
Turbovolver: seems honest, trying to help. A little quick to jump to MBL's defence, but I don't think that there are any scum

groups

left, so that seems to be townily motivated
kilmenator: Asked us to kill him. Can anyone say " 'Nuff said"? Could possibly be a pro-town wimp hoping to cast aspertions on MBL by proving himself to be town. Could be a scum trying the pity-play. Either way, dumbness; if they weren't so incredibly rare and bastardmoddery, I'd suspect jester.
geraintm: Said a week and a half ago he was waiting for silent folk to chime in. Has posted one sentence since. Hypocrite, lurking to avoid commenting on a controversial situation, or attending for some reason I don't know... not a huge fan.
Norinel: Rare but useful contributions. Worth listening to, but he doesn't shout so he'd got less notice than MBL, Turbo, Kil or I.

[Adele]

You suggested your own lynch, Kil. You can't exactly say "pls do such and such" and cry foul when people do so, plus "lynch me" is a tell.

MBL, it looks to me like Turbo's dropped a doublevote. I wouldn't be overly surprised, looking back; he's seemed to take care to always unvote when he changes votes (I don't recall if that's in the rules of this game tho)...

just in case he's gambitting,

unvote

. That was a suddenlynch.

[Adele]

Hi. Yeah, I'm not voting as yet; wait on SL's result and MBL's proof, then take them both into acocunt.

[Adele]

MM's logged in since Sunday, so we should expect a result from SL when he next logs in...

--drums fingers--

[Adele]

Wow, MBL, you're so totally a liar. "It was a gambit lie to find something out"=not a good enough excuse.

vote: MBL

[Adele]

If you haven't figured out my role at this point, it should be exceedingly obvious after my last post and the recent set of events. If I reference it in any way I get modkilled. Suffice it to say I'm not a threat in the least and it's been a blast lying my ass off.

Fantastic. So now you're non-antitown (which is not to necessarily say

pro

-town) induced by the mod to lie, who's never told us any truth at all... and who can't and won't tell us what we need to know to make an informed decision.

You're a miller on top of all this.

This is no role that I know of. Jester? Surviver?

unvote

, someone help me out here.

[Adele]

Anyways, MBL i hope you are happy with the way the game has gone.

So far so good, but we're not quite home yet.

the game seems horribly balanced. scum had a godfather, double voter, recruited Ozy? and am i right in thinking there is one left, or are we chasing the person who is doing the day kills?

We are chasing the person who just killed scum, odds are they are not scum or they wouldn't have done that because turbo's double vote on me plus another scum vote would have probably won them the game. So yeah, we're looking for the freaking psychopathic daykilling SK

And... how do we know that the psychopath SK isn't you?

[Adele]

Seriously, you just need to figure out which of Norinel/myself/Adele is the SK and lynch them for the win. I think I've laid out a pretty solid case for the past day and a half, and mind you the person I spotted was a "confirmed innocent" so if he turns out to be the final killer like I think he is then you can thank me for the win.

Or you can lynch me for all the weirdness and make me a sad panda. But you'll probably lose if you do that. Just read my post history from the perspective that I was trying to draw out the SK and it should make a lot more sense.

You've played

that

card before. In fact, you've played most of the scummy cards in the deck.

MBL:
1) breadcrumbs doc
2) says daykiller is SK
3) claims day/nightvig
4) claims nightonlyvig
5) claims scum
6) refuses to claim, but hints at contradictory abilities
7) tells people he's 98.6% sure Norinel's the sk
8.) tells people it really might be me. But it's

definately

Norinel. No, wait, could be me...

hmm
...I move that MBL's input should henceforth be ignored. We don't know if he's

ever

told the truth.. but we do know he's lied. A lot.
Me, I'm falling back on Old Faithful: Lynch All Liars. He's trying to confuse us, and it's worked. A lot. Do we need any more proof that he's a Bad Person?

vote: MBL

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me

six

times, shame on me.

[Adele]

norinal/adele are going to have to explain their actions throughout the game though

So, having established that we can't trust MBL, we're blindly following his analysis? Or are you about to contend that it's a coincidence you've just named the two people he's been focusing on this morning?

[Adele]

I'd also like to know your explanation for why Norinel didn't believe I was the daykiller.

This is one of the reasons I list you as a #2 suspect for SK, you do weird impulsive things sometimes that don't entirely make logical sense. You shoved kilmenator into the woodchipper for asking to be lynched, even though she had previously proven to be slightly illogical.

I placed the first vote on him. Of course if there's a mafia doublevoter the lynch is going to go through faster than expected, but kilmenator showed several anti-town tells that warranted a first vote and some pressure.

And now you're willfully ignoring the evidence against Norinel, choosing not to even discuss it.

I'm extremely wary of letting you set the agenda. That's hurt us enough already.

It's not bullying, it's wanting to win--sorry if it comes across otherwise. If it's not persuasive enough you're free to disregard.

Are we heck.

You're jamming every logic circuit I have, here, MBL. How am I supposed to figure out what's useful pro-town play if other pro-towners are playing me? How am I supposed to believe you're pro-town when you've so consistently played the lot of us?

It reminds me of Gabe, from webcomic mafia:

Minor victory condition: Have a three-person endgame.
Major victory condition: Be the last man standing.

I

don't know

if you're SK, scum, independent, jester... all I know is that you've lead the town down blind alleys - on purpose. Now you're outright refusing to claim... why? Don't want the falsifiability? No, you're claiming a PR. It's one convenient excuse after another with you in this game, and you still expect us to be able to believe you

at all

- on

any

score - when the past excuses have been, again, big fat lies?

Mortifying though this is, while you're talking, I don't trust myself in any of my judgements. If the rest of the town is willing to suffer your presence, then I'd like to at least request that you shut the hell up.

[Adele]

I mean, your top suspect for scum just pointed out that the serial killer hasn't even voted in this entire game. That's something you should have noticed long ago.

QuestionBegTacular. The person

you're

saying is the SK, while I'm trying my darndest to ingore you (seriously, how can I use anything you say, when you might just say tomorrow "oh, that was another lie"?).

Besides, aren't SKs usually powered

up

, not down? If Nori's voteless then that's hardly evidence that he's the SK.

There's more evidence right now to my mind that you are, in fact, the SK. Remind me, because scanning through your posts I couldn't see it: did you ever offer any evidence that you

aren't

the SK?

Alternatively, describe a more scummy behaviour than consistently lying. You're poo-poohing "Lynch All Liars" (when in fact you're not just a liar but a pathological one) without undermining the logic behind it: anti-town roles have to lie, pro-town roles don't. It's a pro-scum stratagem.

[Adele]

You continue to fail to comment on the crux of my argument... why would Norinel doubt that I was the daykiller when I claimed the daykills? What sane person would claim kills they didn't commit? And what person would know they were lying?

Well, I'm not in Norinel's head, so I can't say with 100% certainty, but my gut is...

Someone who can

smell a rat

. You claim were lying. You said yourself you were clutching at crazy straws; if anything, it's damning on the rest of us that we didn't realise you were spouting such absolute bullshit. You pretty much pushed the "if anyone dares query me, they're scum" card to scare people off, so only one or two people would - (a) be involved enough in the game to, and (b) dare to - ask the questions that needed asking. If you aren't the daykiller, Norinel nailed you. He got you fair and square, asked questions you didn't have answers to because (you said yourself) the dayvig scenario

didn't make sense

.

If you

are

the daykiller...
...and I still don't know that you're not.

But, feel free to keep playing one scummy-as-hell card after another. You can't claim, because the mod won't let you. You won't answer a simple question, because I'm ignoring crucial evidence which you can't point out to me be...cause... oh, is that the time?

Finally, why, if you are so convinced that Norinel's the SK, are you voting me?
My theory: you're not interested in helping the town, you just care about who's a threat to you. Right now, I'm asking the right questions - I can tell because you aren't answering them - so you want me out. Norinel's the easy kill, you can do him tomorrow.

I'm not posting again now til someone

other

than MBL does - preferably Norinel (he should be back in town now, right?). If one of you {Norinel, SL, geraint} wants me to answer a question, of your own or MBL's, please put it to me - but don't expect me to answer a question on MBL's say-so. I'm not gonna be interrogated by someone whose own responses to questions are either lies or refusals - under one excuse or another - to answer at all. As far as I'm concerned, I've been on his leash enough.


In other news, "The Departed" is a very good film. Winds you up a bit tho

[Adele]

2) MBL is confirmed to have acted

at night

.

Once. The night after the kill-less day. Your claim explained that; the very claim we'd've been scummy to question at the time but would be stupid to consider potentially partly true now.

4) MBL investigated

guilty

.

That you consider this evidence of your innocence is laughable.

5) But MBL is not scum because among other things that would imply

four scum

including a godfather

plus an SK

in this game.

MBL=Mafia Framer also fits.

6) MBL lied several times in an attempt to draw out the SK and protect the doctor.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about stuff we know, not stuff you're claiming and I've been doubting. Stop trying to sneak stuff under the radar, you're just embarrassing yourself.

7) Norinel is the daykiller because he inexplicably

doubted

my daykill claims. When someone claims daykiller, you wonder whether they're a vig or an SK, you

don't

wonder if they're the daykiller. Unless you are.

Maybe he's a vig. Maybe something about your claim seemed off to him (um, in which case, like,

kudos

to him).

--------------

OK. I'm a combatative person (you might not have noticed that). As long as MBL's arguing at me, I'm compelled to argue back (especially when it's so full of tosh). The question of who's the likeliest SK (if the daykiller even is SK) is much more important though, so I'm going to try to produce an evidence for and against each player (because I'm also not interested in playing into MBL's "it's Norinel, MBL or Adele" obsession).
And, by the way, it's gonna take a

lot

to convince me to claim before MBL. He's well overdue for a (true) claim, since one was demanded of him yesterday, and I

really

don't consider "mod won't let me" an acceptable excuse.

[Adele]

very quick.

Why, what's the rush?

i want claims from both norinal and adele.

Naturally, I'm hesitant to claim while MBL's being given a free card.

i want to know exactly what both have been doing the whole game, every day and night.
you can do it in stages if you want, so not to give the other a disadavantage of going first, but i want both of you to tell us all exactly what has been going on.
i will gladly tell you all where i have been afterwards

Wait... did I miss the post where you got confirmed? I'm in the process of deciding whether I trust you more or less than SL, Norinel and even MBL, at the moment. Why is it you get to say that you'll effectively be the last to claim?

adele - departed is ok, but didn't deseve oscar. go see little miss sunshine which should have won, but the presteige and the will ferrel/emma thompson ones were much better than anything else.

Um, I work at Blockbusters . I've seen The Prestige, which is indeed very good (my boss said he didn't think much of it, but then we found out he hadn't understood it - a bit dim), and I've seen Little Miss Sunshine (which might well be the best movie I've seen in the last 12 months). I was v. miffed to miss Stranger Than Fiction in the cinema, and it comes out on DVD on the second of April so I'll get it out... on the 29th of March probably, and I can't wait.

or is your mentioning of the departed some hint at double roles within the mafia???

No, it was an explanation of

part

of the reason I was so worked up. If you've not seen it, it's about a crimelord's Mole in the police and the police's Rat in with the crimelord trying to figure out who each other are. Kind of appropriate to mafia, kind of encouraging to one's paranoia instincts.
Plus, MBL's been so obviously scummy while Leo and Matt had to hide

their

tracks so carefully...

ps. ooh! I broke the game! You're

all

evil j/k

[Adele]

Ha-bloody-ha, but I'm writing a First Post here; Smalltown 2 filled up way quicker than expected. Plus, I'm interested to hear what Norinel thinks (and would actually really like more participation from him).

[Adele]

Sorry for my absence the last couple of days. I'm the deputy, which (obviously) means SL must be telling the truth. Sorry, no choices to declare. Any nighttime weirdyness is unrelated to me.

So, we have everyone in play claiming not-daykiller.

Norinel claimed bomb? Ouch, that's an enjoyable scumclaim but it's no flying pumpkin.

Geraintm, I'd appreciate a claim from you too now.

[Adele]

Wow, MBL, you're a liar.

I am the

psychiatrist

, and I am

neutrally aligned

. This is why I know for a fact there's an SK in the game and have been focused on drawing them out. My win condition is that I convert the serial killer to town, and I get to try once a night. My role PM says specifically that I will investigate as scum, and the SK will investigate as town and I am the only chance to catch him.

I tried to cure Ozy, Turbo and Norinel, all unsuccessfully. Norinel is NOT the SK--I truly believed he was yesterday after his behavior but he's clean.

What Adele said makes it pretty much impossible that SL is the SK. Claiming a deputy means either she's lying or BOTH of them are, and there's pretty much no way there are still two scum alive.

I believe geraint nearly entirely based on the lack of nightkills and his reactions to various game events.

That means

we should lynch Adele.

That is why my vote has been there and will remain there.

Here's my argument for why that's not true.
(1) This makes, in simple motivational terms, no sense whatsoever. MBL, If you

were

neutrally aligned, if your win condition was to convert the SK, and you believed I was the SK, wouldn't you want me to survive into the night? Wouldn't that give you the chance to cure me and give the town, you

and

me game wins? That would be the logical play for you, yet argue the exact opposite, which would preclude you winning - if you were telling the truth.

(2) MBL is not a complete moron.

therefore,
(3) He's lying. Again. Still.

If he were telling the truth, he'd take the only path that'd offer him the chance of a win and vote no lynch.
His latest claim, yet again, makes no sense. He's already lied beyond any kind of excusability, and his excuse for it is a wash, because it makes-no-sense.
He's talked since the dawn of time about how the town should start to engage their brains. I think it's time we did, and lynched the liar. This is a no-brainer.

[Adele]

Ok now, the SK should honestly claim right now, why? If the SK claims, we no lynch, and MBL converts you to town and everybody but the three mafiates win. There is NO reason not to claim unless you're a dick and don't want people to win. This plan assumes that MBL is not the SK, but you have a MUCH better chance of winning by trusting us to convert you (as converting you gives another winner, lynching you provides no benefits) than trusting us to not lynch you today (2/3 chance of surviving as 2 people are clear) and then tommorow (1/2 chance of surviving) which means you have a 1/3 chance to win. 1/3 vs. 1, which is the better choice?

Makes sense to me.
I'm not the SK.

SL: I'm a backup; if the cop dies, I'll get his powers. That's all the mod told me.

[Adele]

As a neutral, I also win with any side if I survive to the end of the game. If I die without converting the SK, I do not win.

OK, I misunderstood your latest made-up win condition. Doesn't change the fact: if you

were

convinced I was the SK, you'd be pushing for no-lynch. So why did you push my lynch?

Because I'm your easiest target right now.

Um,

She's trying to draw your attention away from an analysis of the game based on events, which would be the logical approach immediately after a massclaim.

For example:

1) Why a doc if scum daykills? Clearly scum was killing at night and got docblocked. Ergo, there is an SK killing during daytime.

When did I say there definately wasn't an SK? I think you

are

the SK; the fact of your nightchoice being related to the lack of a daykill day 1.

[Adele]

You say I should be pushing for no-lynch? LOL. So scummy. No risk to you of death today, and you gank me first thing tomorrow.

I'm talking about what makes sense for you. If you're so sure, then what'd be the downside?

I'm okay with one of two scenarios; if we were to no-lynch and the day continued into tomorrow, that'd completely undermine the paradigm that MBL's pushing and he'd be the smart lynch. Alternatively, we can just lynch him today and if I'm somehow wrong about him and it continues into tomorrow I'm the sensible lynch. With either of these possibilities, it's a win for town if MBL or I is the SK (I think common opinion's willing to bet the game on geraintm, and I think I am).
MBL, what's your response to these suggestions? In the case of my being the SK, these suggestions'd lead me to either win via an altered WC or just lose, and, more importantly, the town would be sure to win. If you're against both, I'd really like to hear why.

[Adele]

Also, she knows lynching me today is too risky because it'll expose her in time to be caught tomorrow when I turn up psych. She can only win by maintaining reasonable doubt that I'm the SK until sunset tomorrow.

Try reading my posts, MBL - I'd

prefer

to lynch you today, which according to you would condemn me to a loss. What do you say?

I want to lynch MBL, and I'm willing to compromise on a no-lynch. MBL, are you pushing the "lynching Adele is the only way" agenda, even though (if you're telling the truth, and I am the SK) it manifestly

isn't

the only viable plan?

[Adele]

I've been thinking about it. I know SL's town, and I still trust geraintm. I think the reason MBL pushed me as the liar was because I was the biggest threat to him (especially with my obsession with lynching liars) and he was just desperate to stay in it. But now he's out (thank God) and I can think about stuff without him confusing me, I'm 90% sure Norinel's the SK. He's the play by my reckoning.

vote: Norinel

[Adele]

I think the reason MBL pushed me as the liar was because I was the biggest threat to him (especially with my obsession with lynching liars) and he was just desperate to stay in it.

That should've been "the reason MBL pushed me as the

SK

".

[Adele]

Yeah, I really could've bought "voteless townie".

[Adele]

I think we're

in

lynch or lose, and I think you're the play. I'm willing to bet the game on it.

It's unlikely that there's going to be an accidental quicklynch, so if people ask me to unvote and wait to hammer, that's one option (precluding something crazy happening in the meantime eg SL announcing a guilty investigation on geraintm).
It's not like the vote's sticky.

[Adele]

unvote

[Adele]

I'm in about the same place as you, geraintm; I think it's

probably

Norinel, but I do still have concerns that it might be you, and I don't want to bet the game on it. Which is what I'd be doing if I were to hammer Norinel (in case he turns out to actually be a bomb and you're the SK). For me, then, the ideal scenario is you hammering Norinel.

Norinel: given that you clearly aren't voteless, why didn't you ever vote in the game until late on yesterday?

[Adele]

I think you're probably telling the truth, but I'm not certain; it was implied for a very long time without anyone reacting to it, which seems a fairly safe way for scum to potentially test the water and back down if necessary (which is kind of what MBL did). It's also noted that you waited until the roles of every other player in the game (save MBL's) were known or claimed.

The nightkills point might possibly be a useful one; why don't you tell us everyone you've protected? May as well put all cards on the table.

[Adele]

Are we all giving SL a free pass now?

...given that I'm the back-up cop, it seems

probable

that there is a cop in the game.

[Adele]

night 3, the obvious thing was to protect shadow again, but i thought that was too obvious, the mafia knew i had protected him the night before and would almost certainly do so again, so i moved away from the cop and went with someone who had been cleared by the cop.

A mite vague...

Well, this game is high-chaos, right? Could the exact wording of your PM be interpreted in such a way that there could be no cop?

I'll doublecheck, post again in a few hours.

[Adele]

That's great, SL, from your perspective. But for me, I know I'm innocent and if I hammer Norinel then I'm betting the game on him being the SK. Obviously I'd prefer if gertaintm hammered. Do you have other reasons for trusting him over me, and if so, what?

[Adele]

Roleclaims aren't everything. I'm not willing to hammer Norinel, possibly get myself blown up, and hang the game on whether the only survivor - geraintm - is town or scum. I'm worried that if he were the daykiller he may have done this to detract attention away from himself ande encourage a quicklynch. Prior to SL's death we may have been able to get Norinel to self-hammer and possibly get another try in tomorrow.

I'm going to reread, but the entirety of what geraintm seems to have contributed to recent discussions has been "don't look at me, I'm the doc I can't possibly be evil". I'd like to hear a

lot

more from Norinel.

Geraintm, why did you vote so quickly after the daykill? That looks worryingly prethought-out.

[Adele]

Whoa! That's a very threatening reaction to a completely normal worry, geraintm.

do you really think that i am scum? the number of scum in the game would be frightening if that were the case.

Not if you're the SK instead of Norinel.

i voted quickly as i didn't expect anything else to happen in the game other than you and norinel to vote for each other, i didn't think you two would both vote for me.

So you wanted to be sure that it'd be me that'd do the hammering. You realise that if Norinel's telling the truth then I'd die too - and you'd win the game regardless of your alignment? In fact, if I vote for Norinel now you are

guaranteed

to win, so I don't understand why you're acting like this is all so upsetting.

did you want me to vote for you then?? is that what you wanted?

No, thanks. That'd be odd, if you think Norinel's the SK; in fact, either way that's a sub-optimal strategy for you. I'd've just hoped you'd be interested in talking things through a little bit more. You've put me in a position where I have to decide who I trust more: you or Norinel. Why don't you help me decide? Is the only reason why you trust me over Norinel because of the claims?

If, in theory, Norinel were to think you're more likely to be the SK than I, would you consider unvoting, letting me vote, and hammering?

And finally, you seem to think it's nasty of me to want to slow down and make sure we're taking the best path we possibly can, seeing as we're in LyLo (that, at least, is definately true of all three of us). Do you?

[Adele]

I think the best strategy here if you both think I'm more worth lynching

I'm not certain anymore that you'd be the best lynch if it weren't for your role; what your role allows us to do is effectively lynch two people, and if the third left standing is pro-town (which from an outsider's perspective is a 2 in 3 chance) then it's a town win, and if not, then the SK wins.

I guess a sensible course of action is for geraintm and I to present cases as to why we're town and the other's SK. You're a shoo-in for the lynch, so now it's a matter of seeing who's the sensible runner-up.

MM, don't hit an internet cafe on our account - what's an extra 24 hours? And it's not like we need your input to make any more decisions.

[Adele]

i have to present my case?
so far the only person to have doubted my role as far as i can tell is adele. she seems to beleive that there is no doc in the game which must be the conclueson from her wanting norinel to have me vote second?
but if she thinks i am not the doc, then why isn't she pushing to lynch me straight away? to me that don't make any sense.

I think you have a higher chance of being the SK than I do.

adele, i am in the same situation as you, having to trust one of you or norinel, so i don't think you can complain too much about being in that situaion.

Wrong. Neither of us is in that situation. If I lynch Norinel, you will win, no matter what. If you lynch Norinel, I will win, no matter what. If Norinel is SK, then we will

both

win in both cases, but to be as sure as possible of a town win, I have to prefer you as the hammerer to myself.

i think i have talked myself into doing it. i can't see a good enough reason that adele hasn't voted for norinel if adele is town.

Can't see, or have decided is prudent to stubbornly ignore?

You're rejecting the plan that Norinel and I seem to be in agreement of. If you're saying that there's no way you'll lynch Norinel, then you're pretty much forcing me to pick it between the two of you - and Norinel hasn't behaved in this absurd, desperate manner.

Vote: geraintm

/crosses fingers

ps. I'm going to be online for at least the next hour, then again in the evening. I'm convinced the vote you've placed on me is an omgus for my wanting to consider all the angles rather than give you a free card. If you'll unvote and agree to actually engage the

issues

, I'll do the same. I don't want to gamble any more here than I have to; if Norinel's the SK then we're handing him the win, but I can't let you bully me into killing myself in the hopes that you're pro-town, geraintm.

Please respond as soon as humanly possible.

[Adele]

I'm off out now. I'm going to grudgingly

unvote

, but insist that you not try to pull off some kind of fait accompli to make me fall into plave, geraintm. Like I said, I'm not going to be bullied into a bad play.

[Adele]

It's been more than 48 hours. Apparently the course of action that geraintm decided on was to put me at lynch-1 and bugger off. At this point I'm forced to assume that you're deliberately avoiding talking sense with me, geraintm, and that you are in fact the SK. I can't imagine you either taking such a risky play when you knew you'd be away from the sit efor a while, or you stopping by but choosing not to engage, otherwise.

Here we go again.

Vote: geraintm

[Adele]

No, his roleclaim was either false - and therefore Norinel's the SK - or it is true - and YOU are the SK.

Can you wrap your head around the idea that these are the two options

I

can see? And that if you are the SK (which is definately a possiblity, and your trenchant attitude in this matter makes it more probable by the day), then my hammering Norinel would lose the game for town?

[Adele]

I'm sorry you got put in this position. I don't know if the SK is you or geraintm - although from this I'm now guessing it

is

geraintm - but obviously I'm not going to expect you to just take my word on the matter (and act like you must be evil if you don't think that's smart play *glares*).

I'm really busy today, but in about 13 hours I'll post and try to say why, given that you have to make a pick between lynching geraintm or me, it's better to pick geraintm.

[Adele]

Okay, here we go. Geraintm's only positive is that he's claimed doc and not been counterclaimed - that's

it

. And it worked for a pretty long time. But this morning, when it became evident to both of us that the best odds for a town win laid with the less trustworthy of geraintm and I lynching you (after SL died shortly after putting this very point forward), geraintm suddenly switched to refusing to pay any attention to logic - if I consider it even marginally more likely that you're the SK than he is, then I should want you dead and therefore hammer you, appears to be his argument.

Entreaties to pay attention to the situation from my point of view, and observe that this is the only smart play for me, fell on dead ears. Instead he forced us into this face-off by voting for me (just a few short posts after you and I agree that it makes most sense for you to decide who's less trustworthy and that person should be required to hammer you) - why? It doesn't make sense for a townie to take such an extreme course of action over talking things through. He's running scared, because he

knows

that him hammering you would lose him the game - and he could only know that if

he's

the SK.

It's a desperate act, and one that's forced me into the equivalent action. Note that whichever of geraintm or I is scummier and should die today, it's still better for the town if that person hammers you and dies by the bombness if you're telling the truth. So why won't he go with that?
Answer: I've traditionally been under more suspicion. If he can get you to act quickly and without thinking things through sensibly, then I'll probably be the victim.

I hope you understand what I mean; I'll try to post tonight, making more sense

[Adele]

Geraint's reactions to the Day 2 MBL/kilme exchange were more confused than anything else, which I could read as either sincerely not understanding because he hadn't decided on a doc claim or maybe newbieness.

Newbieness? He's been here a year and has 400 in-game posts...

Night 3, they would've had to attack me

That's what first tweaked me, made me want to think again. You didn't make much sense as a kill target

or

a protect target, frankly. Ger put off naming targets as long as possible and then said you; in the context, it seemed a deliberate choice to push doubt onto me.

it could very well be possible that it's easier to wrap your head around strange deliberately lynching me plans

if you know my claim is true.

It's not a complicated scenario as endgames go. I can't believe it's so far beyond him when it's such a no-nrainer for both you and I (and SL too). He's been playing a year, and he can't imagine things from other peoples' perspectives, or play out different hypotheticals? That just seems the most improbable thing to me here.

But then, I'm posting from the position of now being certain he's the SK, because otherwise you'd've won by now...

[Adele]

Dude, if you reread, you will actually find that Norinel floated the idea of him picking between us, and if suspected you more, he and I would order you to unvote, wait for me to vote, and

then

hammer under threat of a straight lynch.

So, yes. You

did

have to worry about losing the game because of Norinel's role.

adele, all your comments in post 986 are very, very hypocritical.

No, they aren't.

you say that i have changed my thinking, but my reason to vote for you are exactly what you are claiming for me!

Hmm. You're voting for me because you refuse to consider letting Norinel choose between us. I'm voting for you because you refuse to consider letting Norinel choose between us. You're right, that's

exactly

the same reason - in both cases, your myopia. The upshot of which is, Norinel has to choose between us (am I the only one who finds that ironic?)

you can't say it is unrasnable for me to assume you are the serial killer because you wouldn't vote for norinel, then say i am the serial killer because i wouldn't vote for norinel.

I know I'm not the SK; therefore (from my perspective) there's a higher chance that you're the SK than there is that I am. Therefore I'd prefer you to potentially get hit by hammering Norinel if he's telling the truth than that I get hit.

misses the point that i had vote for norinel! and i was waiting for you to finish him off!

EXACTLY

. I would've considered hammering him if you'd done the same, but you refused to. From my perspective THERE IS A CHANCE you are the SK and Norinel's telling the truth, and by hammering Norinel, I'D BE KILLING HIM AND MYSELF AND LOSING THE GAME FOR TOWN!!!

There's no chance in HELL you still don't understand this. The reason I wouldn't blindly hammer Norinel is the same reason you're

claiming

as why you would never even consider it. There's one difference between my approach to today and yours - I've been willing to be reasonable, to potentially put myself at risk. You've insisted that the play results in you certainly surivivng the day - exactly the play I'd expect from an SK.

You've been scummy as heck. I've not been hypocritical at all, actually; it

was

you who rejected Norinel's plan and forced us into this face-off. I worked my tail off for days (we've only lynched one mafioso in this game - MBL - and I'd like to take responsibility for that particular victory, pushing him and enumerating his lies), while you've sat back as the "doc" and trusted we'd know better than to hurt

you

.

Well, here it is. Hammering Norinel would've given me a 2-in-3 chance (as I then perceived it) of lynching the SK and winning the game. It wasn't as good as it could be if you were hammering (since I'm town, that'd give a definate town win). So, here's my question:

Was it scummy of me to prefer the scenario where you, rather than I, hammer Norinel?

The fact that you manipulated the situation so that you were never in direct risk of having to do that? Irrelevant. (though I'd like to also point out that when SL asked me to unvote Norinel on that basis,

I

happily did so).

This is getting tiresome. ger and I will shout each other round in a circle. Perhaps it would be better if Norinel asked us what he considers to be the important questions.

[Adele]

In case anyone was wondering: I did at one point genuinely believe MBL that he was the psychiatrist, and thought my only chance of winning was to confess. I decided that there was more honour in getting the Liar lynched and losing than winning with a town that would suffer a Liar in its midst.

Just FYI.

Also, what would you all have done without me?
Lost, that's what. You shoulda let me win as a thank-you. Or something.

Srsly, tho - all the scum deaths are significantly attributable either to the mod (the D1 modkills) or me (I take full responsibility for MBL's death, so there). Town didn't deserve to win - I did

[Adele]

Whatever, dude, you died at my hands first.

Why, when the scum win was resting so greatly on your shoulders, did you behave so ridiculously?