Mini 392: Jungle Republic - Game over!

[sprontalic]

/confirm!

[sprontalic]

hey shadowlurker, you missed the "!!11!1!one!eleven!1!"

vote: Cadre

[sprontalic]

Wow 2 more pages since my last post...this game's going fast and I like!!!

I have absolutely no problem with Shadowlurker's play style at this stage. His first vote was a second vote yes, but I don't think theres much problem with that at the random voting stage. Being the second vote it doesn't increase the chances of a lynch dramatically and it also helps get us out of the random voting stage (which as someone before said is crap and spams up the game).

For those who are saying sarcasm is hard to read...obviously you guys don't read forums enough. SL is clearly trolling in this game...we can see that in post 24.

SL also jumped wagons on page 2...but I think that's more to ridicule Kingpin's prior comment about bandwagoning TSQ.

Post 37 I believe is also an attempt to ridicule Cadre...his wording in that post clearly implies that he's being sarcastic. Notice how he didn't follow it up with a vote?

That's why I believe those that are saying SL is scummy are being opportunistic, hence:

FOS: Friday 13th

Also the vote on Cadre is for the same thing, except that he pushed the notion much more aggressively. Also his gut feeling is clearly full of crap. Also post 52 kinda confirms it...it seems like a clear attempt at covering for being opportunistic.

Also

FOS: Lucresia

for looking at lurkers on page 3.

[sprontalic]

I also think if one uses similar wording to another person...chances are they're being sarcastic.

[sprontalic]

BOO!!!!

- Post #74
well it seems we have a rift on whom can detect sarcasm when it is written out, and those who cannot... maybe those of us who can have a tendency to be more sarcastic in real life?

haha yea that's true. But hey, being sarcastic's fun

[sprontalic]

You know I was hoping for a nice long exchange between you and germy...but your sudden backing down makes me believe that your vote on him before was really just an attempt at distancing.

FOS: Germy + LyingBrian

[sprontalic]

Well I'm not posting cause I don't have anything useful to say. Next time I have something worth saying I'll say it, until then I'm just gonna bite my tongue...

Well for starters you can pitch your "early gut feelings" to post 76 (or whichever one was my post).

[sprontalic]

I've noticed that you have been very defensive and vulgar in your responses to my criticism.

That's just the way he plays. I'm pretty sure we killed him in another game (which shalln't be named since it's still going) for that and he was town.

[sprontalic]

I use pretty decently heavy profanity normally, but usually not when I am trying to make a point. I feel it is erratic behavior and a last attempt at defending something you can't really defend. I agree that there are many other words that are stronger and can give you a more compelling argument because they are not used in such a way.

Go back to read when he used profanities and you'll see that he's only using them to make a point by employing sarcasm eg his excessive use of f**k when address the issue of his overusage of the word.

As for the WIFOM discussion, I have to agree with SL. This' almost like the disucssion that was raised in the mafia discussion forum. What SL did is NOT WIFOM because there isn't equal probability...acting the way he did is clearly disadvantageous to scum (and also town) so with what evidence we have now, it by itself isn't a strong evidence against SL's cause. The fact is attracting attention on himself so early in the game does no one any good whether protown or antitown...so the argument that his doing it is scummy is in itself void and invalid. By attracting attention to himself, he inevitably throws himself in danger of a lynch...no matter how much that particular scum group is advantaged later in the game it's still going to weigh negatively in the long run since they've lost a lifeline, not to mention what happens in day 1 rarely weighs significantly later in the game so the rest of the scum group is likely to be uncovered anyway. As we can see...the issue in question here is not creating an advantage for his team as clearly it doesn't...it is aboue survival...and by doing what he did he is clearly disadvantaging himself in this issue, making it not a WIFOM. Why isn't it? scum is more desperate to suvive than a townie...if a scum dies his team loses a lifeline...but if a townie dies he can potentially reveal scum for his fellow townies to pursue later. This clearly shows that SL's actions favours town more than scum.

Although the pro's and con's are true, I still have seen scum do this so that they can say the exact thing you are saying, that a scum would never do this. lol So, in other words it's all a big loop of possible scumminess.

That is true...but with the evidence that exists now I see him as likely town and likely scum. There has been no discerning fact supporting neither so far. This is why we don't lynch him today and lynch him tomorrow when he DOES do something scummy.

You know what? I have a really bad feeling about Lyingbrian's aggressive pursuit of an SL lynch. The whole SL being suspicious thing started with his being sarcastic at the start which I disagreed with from the very beginning...yet somehow a whole host of people managed to see the suspicious side to. That's ok someone acting stupid

could

be viewed as being suspicious. But the points against him now I just find ridiculous.

1) the WIFOM debate: I don't think he's using WIFOM because theres no equal probability involved. His using it

doesn't

prove his innocence, he never claimed that it does. Also

anything

can be turned into cyclic logic...the fact that an argument is cyclic doesn't make it invalid. WIFOM and cyclic logic are two different things. Also considering the large paragraph I posted above I can't see the WIFOM argument working. Yet Lyingbrian still pursues it aggressively.

2) The whole issue of swearing: This is just stupid. I think voting someone in the beginning (ie random stage) for swearing is ok...but when discussion is rife like it is now...this is hardly a discerning reason.

3) Not Helpful: He generated discussion so surely he's been helpful. I'll admit though he hasn't been helpful in the convention sense but hey, everyone has their own methods.

Basically I find that Lyingbrian's arguments are quite weak at this stage...and SL has really refuted the last two points already which significantly reduces the strengths of this bandwagon...yet he still pushes the issue repetitively. I'm getting the feeling that he's just trying to start any old bandwagon especially since it's gaining strength from people who aren't seeing the big picture.

unvote
vote: Lyingbrian

Also I find germy's vote very bandwagonistic (ie no logic of his own, just voting because theres a bandwagon happening). Kinda supports the theory that he and Lyingbrian are in the same scum group and they their prior argument is for distancing purposes.

FOS: germy

[sprontalic]

It is my opinion that, though thetatusquo quick lynched Shadowlurker, there was a huge bit between LyingBrian and Shadowlurker that leaves not much to the imagination. Lyingbrian was the driving force behind that lynch, and I think he's the guilty one between them.

I have to disagree with you there. Upon reconsideration I think those that mindlessly bandwagoned are just as or even more suspicious than Lyingbrian himself. I admit that Lyingbrian used some pretty bad logic in his accusation of SL, most of which I disagreed with. But Lyingbrian did spur much discussion yesterday and may yet prove useful. I think those that would be better plays are those that unwittingly joined the bandwagon without any logic of their own...blatently trying to get the weakest link lynch regardless of how much sense that bandwagon makes.

Upon a re-read I'm going to

vote: TSQ

. First and foremost he hammered completely out of the blue. Secondly he voted Lyingbrian in post 123...within 24 hours he changed his stance completely. Why the sudden change...especially when it matters most? Thirdly TSQ doesn't chance stance in 24 hours...he chances in less then that, somehow managing to vote rastapopolous before hammering SL. That simply reeks of opportunistic voting to me.

And I'm going to

FOS: germy, Cadre, Lyingbrian

germy for blatently bandwagon for no reasons. Begin by firing a few "I don't like the way SL is playing" then gets defensive when questioned by Lyingbrian then pops in the big 1 minus lynch vote when the bandwagon has gained enough momentum...during which he never used his own reasoning when casting his vote.

Cadre for voting on gut feeling which was never justified even when asked...and then just allowed the bandwagon to continue when he even admitted at one stage "no summy vibe from it".

Lyingbrian for reasons I posted prior to SL's lynch.

I'm sure there're others, but I really can't be bothered search at this stage. I think looking at four different people is enough at this stage.

[sprontalic]

Plus, and I freely admit this, I didn't want him in the game on a personal playstyle level. Above all, I'm here to have fun: Shadowlurker was definitely making the game less fun.

I reckon his sarcasm lightned up the game actually.

First, it's blatantly untrue.

That argument is insufficient.

Second, he is also wrong about WIFOM.

That argument is insufficient.

Third, sprontalic says next to nothing about the "bandwagon" the whole time except "I don't mind Shadowlurker's playstyle," then constructs a looooong post at lynch-minus-one, coming to Shadowlurker's defense?

The post where I said I don't mind SL's play style IS the defense...reason is that's was essentially the only argument against him. The next line of attack was that "scum wouldn't do that" which is also fair enough too (if you disagree, at least make the effort to prove it, like I've done). The fact is that's the only thing SL had to argue against since everything else was so trivial (eg the swearing which is a stupid argument in itself and the unhelpful thing which can happen to both town and scum). As for why I didn't say anything until lynch minus 1...
1) The WIFOM argument, which I believe was the only "legitimate" argument against SL was brought up during my absence.
2) Two votes came in during my absense...so i never had a chance to bring it up before lynch minus 1
3) I already stated via SL's playstyle why I didn't think he was scum...I thought you would all be smart enough to see the reasoning and agree...but no I was wrong.

A good strategy, if you're scum: come to a townie's defense when it won't matter, thereby looking like you are a townie yourself. When, in fact, you're not.

mmhmm great strategy...especially when there is

two

scum groups. Obviously I have esp if I'm to be certain that SL was town. Have you considered the fact that he actually

wasn't

acting scummy. Also notice how I'd been against SL's wagon ever since the start?

Not OMGUS

The very fact that you brought it up suggests to me that you

want

to OMGUS me, but have included all that flawed argument to cover it up.

[sprontalic]

The claim is that I'm scum and hence know that SL isn't, but how can I be sure that SL was town anyway since there're two scum groups.

Anyway comments on some past posts:

if a player always acts suspiciously, do you not ever lynch him, b/c he might be town?!?

I never believed that SL was being scummy though...the whole thing started when he was being sarcastic which everyone saw as scummy for some reason.

2) It is much less likely a scum would do that then town, because scum wants to avoid that kind of pressure. Come on now, I'm an experienced player; do you really think I'd have 'opportunistic voting' as one of my scum tells?

Now that's what I call a WIFOM. Although I do recall that TSQ's reasoning for voting Rasta I completely agree with.

unvote
vote: Kingpin

Rastas colossal overdefensiveness I think overrides anything Kingpin has to say now.

[sprontalic]

I am going to re read tonight and decide if I am voting for Nai or lying brian.

What about Kingpin? I think the whole deal with Rasta is the biggest thing we have yet.

For now I'm happy with Kingpin, Lyingbrian or Germy. But IMEOY TSQ...although what you've said about the "scumtell not being a scumtell" thing I guess I agree with you, but the fact that you argued it so well makes me believe that you had the whole arguement planned out from the beginning which means, you had something to hide from the beginning. Most of those feelings came from post 215 which just seemed way to complicated and branched off from the topic of discussion that it seems overdefensive. Although I can see your metagaming with SL...it still rubs me the wrong way because although it's "not" scummy, it's highly unhelpful which is just as bad as scummy.

[sprontalic]

I don't understand this line at all.

I don't like the amount of players who aren't voting, and I'd like to see a reduction in their numbers.

Well Rasta maaaaaajorly over-reacted when named. That's a classic scum tell. I think in terms of a "scum-o-meter" what Rasta did just goes way off the scale.

@TSQ: Regarding Kingpin...I agree that when he took over he doesn't look scummy at all, but the thing is I don't think we can ignore something as obvious as that.

[sprontalic]

Just a thought, I did not replace Rasta.

Right...well that's a bit awkward. I read post 169 and assumed TSQ was right...apparently not.

I think Zindaras' posts have been good so far.

unvote: Kingpin
vote: Lyingbrian

Just a reminder, next vote will be a hammer.

@Post 237: Funny that Lyingbrian has been scummy as hell, and yet he's not on your list for anything. A germy/lyingbrian scum pair is looking more and more likely.

it is outbursts like these that make you seem even more scummy in my eyes, Thestatusquo... i see absolutely no reason to degrade other players & use profanity... this makes you look scummy b/c it's like you have no defense left, so you're resorting to degrading other player's playstyle & using profanity, somehow thinking that this will make us believe you are town...

Pretty sure that's the same argument you used on SL, which was invalid also.

[sprontalic]

NAI and Kingpin are town. and I just noticed you replaced Rosta. Guess that means you're scum. Surely not from anything you've done. But Rasta was scummy as hell.

The second "you" implies Kingpin.

I'm not trying to say you were intentionally misleading...I'm just out to explain how I made that mistake.

@germy: Lyingbrian is being voted because of his flawed attack on both TSQ and SL. It's not just that he thought SL was scummy, it's that he used a flawed WIFOM argument to push for the lynch.

Judging by the speed of SL's wagon though, I'd say many of the Islamists were on it in addition to communists. Fact is I still think that bandwagon went much faster than it should've.

[sprontalic]

What is considered a disincentive is when all likely outcomes spawning from the act results in things that will undermine the scum group. Placing attention on yourself is definitely one because even if you don't lynched for doing what you did, you'll be in the spotlight for the rest of the game meaning you'll be under more pressure not to stuff up. That is a disincentive for doing what SL did.

Also, note that what SL did does

not

clear him of anything...and that was the claim he made all along which no one listened to.

[sprontalic]

do you always let other people think for you...

umm...excuse me, what?

just b/c i used the same argument against ShadowLurker, and he turned up town, does NOT make it an invalid argument... unfortunately, some player will always ACT scummy, despite their role...

I was referring to your "using profanities" argument. Although it's not good gamesmanship, it's not exactly a scumtell either.

Not a bad idea, but I think it's pretty obveous that Lying Brian is the scum here. Not only has he been looking more suspicious all game, but I can't imagine Nai doing this if he was scum; he's have no reason to, he'd be better off just killing LB at night if LB really was the seer.

under any other circumstance I would agree, but seriously germy has been so strongly connected to lyingbrian that if lyingbrian were scum, germy would have to be his teammate, if not a scum that's trying to buddy up. I'm quite convinced that lyingbrian is scum too but with this alternative, we may not have to risk killing the seer on the off chance that lyingbrian isn't actually lying.

As such:

unvote
vote: Germy

[sprontalic]

I'm going to be away tonight so I won't be able to see lyingbrian's defence. So TSQ, if you'd like to do the honours when the time comes...

[sprontalic]

Sorry germy but you're an idiot.

vote: germy

Obviously it'd be better to get rid of the communist in order to be sure we're keeping as many townies alive as possible. Once we get rid of night kills we'll have more control over the game since the possibility of a night kill is removed, hence we have more control of deaths in the game. If we keep the communist alive the town would have to go by chance to stay in the game.

[sprontalic]

How is this even called for? I was agreeing with Yosarian2, and responding to Thestatusquo regarding the need to lynch the last Communist. How does saying

what you just said

, several posts before you, make me an idiot?

I'm sorry, I misread your post and thought you were saying the contrary. I think that if someone

did

say to vote for an islamist, it would be very called for. Again I'm sorry.

In spite of that though, vote stands since I had you pinned as Lyingbrian's partner from the start.

[sprontalic]

Looks like the commie decided to not take the risk.

Since we're at lylo, we should be careful here.

I've had suspicious feelings towards Cadre from the start, though not much from Yosarian2, but since many found him suspicious, it's probably not unreasonable to say he's scum. I'm thinking that he's not commie though, so I'm willing to tip that he's an islamist.

I'm thinking the TSQ is the remaining commie. I can't shake the feeling that the timely quick lynch of SL right after my post against Lyingbrian in day 1 and the aggressive assault on lyinbrian in day two isn't as coincidental as it looks. It's not inconceivable that TSQ would be willing to bus Lyingbrian when a clear case has been set against him. Also TSQ is an experienced player, I can't see why he's willing to let the porr logic against SL slide by and in fact let the lynch go through unhindered.

Preemptive defense

: TSQ, I know you said SL must be quicklynched at all time, but as you said it's neither a scum tell or town tell. Well gathering the information together I think it's a scumtell.

I'm tip that Kingpin and Zindaras are townies. I'm getting townie vibes from both of them so based on hunch I'm going to go with Norinel and Lucresia as the other two islamists.

[sprontalic]

Spron: Before you voted for Germy, did you bother to read the thread and figure out who may have actually advocated for the seer to claim?

Although germy turned out to be town, I seriously thought he was LB's partner. From day one when they had the half assed exchange and the sudden working together until when LB claimed undeniably showed a link between those two. IMO that's a bigger tell than the person who wanted a seer claim to come out. Besides forcing a seer claim is beneficial to both the islamists and commies (to soak up a nightkill for the former and to protect the last commie for the latter).

Also I don't think TSQ ever led the charge towards germy's lynch. In fact no one did, it was mutually agreed upon.

...what? You didn't really find me suspicious, but you think others have have found me suspicious, so therefore I'm islamist? That makes no sense at all. I can't imagine that a townie would be that willing to follow the opinion of others in a game where more then half of the people left are scum. On the other hand, an islamist would love to follow good guys into a bad lynch at this point.

fos:sprontalic

as blindly following the lead of others without giving any reasons of your own in this kind of situation is definatly a scum tell.

I found Cadre suspicious, and I don't really have strong read on you. As far as I'm concerned that's enough for now.

Actually after a short reread, I'm thinking maybe Yosarian isn't scum. Since he placed the first vote on germy. I'm not exactly sure the first vote of an islamist quick lynch attempt would come from an islamist because they need two extra votes to finish the wagon. The only reason the wagon against germy finished so soon was coz he voted for himself, no one would've anticipated that.

On the other hand, I'm getting scummy vibes from Kingpin because he promised a reread yet never delivered a comment about it. This I find summy because surely it's not hard to reread on a single player, especially the one that is on 4 votes already. I feel that's an attempt at staying well away from the wagon in order to raise the "TSQ + three others on germy's wagon = scum" argument.

[sprontalic]

Actually, Germy did say that he would vote for himself. That should have been a tip off to someone on the wagon.

Yea, after the 4 votes were already placed on him.

[sprontalic]

But it looks like the kind of mutual agreement that's a pile-on influenced by scum- maybe a townie or two had it against germy going into the day, but there had to be at least one scum in that first run of votes, most likely more. (Well, if you're a townie other than Y2, TSQ, spront, or Zind, you know at least two of them are)

Well I don't doubt that one or two would've piled on as an attempt to bandwagon, but if that's the case it's most likely Zind since he's the last to pile on. I can't imagine the first two being a bandwagoning attempt and I've basically said from day 1 that I was suspicious of germy which was only confirmed by lyingbrian being scum.

[sprontalic]

You know I was hoping for a nice long exchange between you and germy...but your sudden backing down makes me believe that your vote on him before was really just an attempt at distancing.

FOS: Germy + LyingBrian

Also I find germy's vote very bandwagonistic (ie no logic of his own, just voting because theres a bandwagon happening). Kinda supports the theory that he and Lyingbrian are in the same scum group and they their prior argument is for distancing purposes.

FOS: germy

And I'm going to

FOS: germy, Cadre, Lyingbrian

germy for blatently bandwagon for no reasons. Begin by firing a few "I don't like the way SL is playing" then gets defensive when questioned by Lyingbrian then pops in the big 1 minus lynch vote when the bandwagon has gained enough momentum...during which he never used his own reasoning when casting his vote.

For now I'm happy with Kingpin, Lyingbrian or Germy.

@Post 237: Funny that Lyingbrian has been scummy as hell, and yet he's not on your list for anything. A germy/lyingbrian scum pair is looking more and more likely.

germy has been so strongly connected to lyingbrian that if lyingbrian were scum, germy would have to be his teammate, if not a scum that's trying to buddy up. I'm quite convinced that lyingbrian is scum too but with this alternative, we may not have to risk killing the seer on the off chance that lyingbrian isn't actually lying.

As such:

unvote
vote: Germy

And that bring us up to day 3 when I placed the third vote on germy. Note that a significant amount of my posts have been against germy. I think I had every right to vote without reasoning during that one time.

I seriously smell a huge OMGUS and overdefensiveness from that post though. Hence maybe I'm right about you bandwagoning.

[sprontalic]

I'm not hypocritical, I'm simply rebutting your arguement. I never claimed that you didn't give a reasoning, I just said that you would be the most likely becuase you were the last to jump on.

Besides you're FoSing me because I'm saying

if

anyone was bandwagoning it's most likely you.

If

is the crucial word there because I was against looking specficially at the bandwagon against germy as the means to finding the islamists since I don't believe it would mean anything. Thank you though since you've basically proven my point about why it's redundant to say that those on the bandwagon are necessarily scum.

Still your reaction to my vague accusation (which I didn't even really agree with, but was merely expanding discussion) is very interesting and makes me believe that you may be scummier than you've make yourself look before.

FoS: Zindaras

[sprontalic]

In this, rebutting your

own

argument.
Ergo, hypocritical because you're attacking me while I have an obviously similar defense to yours, which you would've seen if you'd have bothered to read the thread...
Or you just wanted to ignore it.

No I didn't rebut my own argument, I rebutted yours. This is what you said (with key phrases bolded)

I

explained my vote

thoroughly, even to germy's satisfaction, while

the point you made

when you voted was quickly rebuttaled, after which you came with the lame, unarguable "I thought you were LyingBrian's scumpal all along."

Hence your argument is that I didn't provide reasoning, which I disproved. Now what I posted before was (again bolding key phrase)

Well I don't doubt that one or two would've piled on as an attempt to bandwagon, but if that's the case it's most likely Zind

since he's the last to pile on

.

Hence my argument is that you were the last to vote, hence most probable to bandwagoning.

And bandwagon isn't a keyword since it's used in the sense of joining the wagon, not joining without a reason (everyone on that bandwagon had a reason, and I'm pretty sure I acknowledged that on the last page).

So, then, how are you cleared of bandwagoning? Because you weren't the last one to jump on but the next-to-last? Oh, my, now that's irrefutable proof that you didn't bandwagon.
You say I'm most likely the bandwagoner because I was the last one to jump on, and you're clearing yourself because you have a defense against not bandwagoning. That's hypocritical.

I never said I didn't bandwagon. I agree that to a neutral observer I'd be as guilty as you. Thing is I've read the little role PM from Kelly Chen which means I know what role I have. Unless I'm trying to make myself lose why would I name myself?

Read it again.

No doubt

. You are definitely saying someone bandwagoned here, and you are definitely pointing the finger at me, specifically.

ok

Well I don't doubt that one or two would've piled on as an attempt to bandwagon,

but if that's the case

it's most likely Zind since he's the last to pile on. I can't imagine the first two being a bandwagoning attempt and I've basically said from day 1 that I was suspicious of germy which was only confirmed by lyingbrian being scum.

Read the bolded part. That means that it might not be, ie not definitive. If you'd read my day 4 posts, you'd now that I hadn't even considered it a possibility.

Ooooh, so now you didn't even agree with it, now that I've rebutted it.

Heres some proof that I never agreed with it from the beginning.

Also I don't think TSQ ever led the charge towards germy's lynch. In fact no one did, it was mutually agreed upon.

ie everyone had their own legitimate reason to vote germy and there was no bandwagoning attempt.

Actually after a short reread, I'm thinking maybe Yosarian isn't scum. Since he placed the first vote on germy. I'm not exactly sure the first vote of an islamist quick lynch attempt would come from an islamist because they need two extra votes to finish the wagon. The only reason the wagon against germy finished so soon was coz he voted for himself, no one would've anticipated that.

On the other hand, I'm getting scummy vibes from Kingpin because he promised a reread yet never delivered a comment about it. This I find summy because surely it's not hard to reread on a single player, especially the one that is on 4 votes already. I feel that's an attempt at staying well away from the wagon in order to raise the "TSQ + three others on germy's wagon = scum" argument.

Note how I was looking at those that

wasn't

on the wagon (except TSQ, which I had basically taken for granted as scum by then).

So I've rebutted one of your arguments, so you pull something else from thin air.

You didn't rebuttal anything, you merely diverted the argument into a different direction, to the fact that I had no reason to vote for germy, to the fact that I was being hypocritical. That's not rebutting, that's bringing up an entirely different argument.

Ok, let me point out my points against you now.
1) You over defended when I was merely making the point that if someone had been bandwagoning germy (which I never agreed with, it was simply to explore Norinel's idea) it would most likely have been you. I didn't FOS you, I merely named you. Notice how the only reason against you was that you were the last the vote, which is why and only why I named you. All of a sudden you pull out the overdefensive "I had a reason for that vote, but you didn't therefore you're scummier than me in that regard". I'll admit though that my post was rather misleading with the "don't doubt" bit.
2) You turn my rebuttal back on me with a red herring. I was never being hypocritical by showing how I'd always been against germy then ignoring the fact that you had too. The burden of proof is not whether you had any ongoing reason against germy, it was simply that you were the last on the wagon. Now this was made very clearly in my post, yet you somehow managed to bend the argument this way. It seems to me like an attempt at retaliating against me by trying to implicate me as scum.
3) You turned someone small and insignificant to something unnecessarily large. Point is I made a passing comment that was used to raise discussion and explore ideas. Basically I was saying "I don't agree with this idea, but if I had to look into this idea, I would think this". Somehow you misread it as "I agree with this idea, hence I strongly agree with this", which is clearly an over-reation and overdefensiveness at work.

Just for the record, I never said you bandwagoned. I just said if someone did bandwagon, it's most probably you.

[sprontalic]

Also, will be away tomorrow and the day after. Going to a friends place to watch NYE fireworks

[sprontalic]

After reading the first two pages, I'm going to go ahead and say Lucreasia, Friday and Cadre are islamists. SL's initial wagon was stupid yet it managed to gain so much momentum quickly...even though people were questioning it's validity while it's going. I definately didn't like the bandwagon then and I still don't like it. Looking at day 4 discussions unfold I kinda had a few ideas but no concrete evidence/feelings. But discovering that these feelings coincide with the bandwagon on SL has greatly strengthened by beliefs.

Hences

FOS: Norinel, Yossarian2, Lucresia

.

[sprontalic]

Guys can we get some sort of agreement/commitment here. All that's happening at the moment is people arguing with each other but no commitment as to who we should be lynching today. If we going like this the game's just going to die.

I have to back Zindaras up about posting lists now. If no one's willing to stand up and point a finger, maybe we should force everyone to do it so we can get this game moving.

[sprontalic]

I've pretty much stated my opinion already, but here it is again just so everything's together in one neat post.

Thestatusquo

: This may not make sense, but throughout the game I've been getting antitown vibes from him whilst not getting scum vibes from him (ie he might be town, but he's definately doing things to hurt the town). In retrospect this could simply be that he is scum. This would make sense if he was willing to sacrafice Lyingbrian early, making him assuming a seriel killer like role. His anti-town trait but lack of affiliation with anyone suggests to me he's the last commie.

KingPin

: I've had pretty much town vibes from him. There was a little mix up between Zindaras and him (with the Rasta replacement) but even during that time I was having doubts about his being scum (and I was pretty convinced that Rasta's over-reaction to TSQ is incredibly scummy). Once that was cleared up he was pretty much town to my eyes. Of course there was the thing about steering clear or germy's lynch but not I'm sure how good an indicator it is. Also I can see him working with anyone. Right now I have him tagged as town.

Yosarian2

: Replaced Cadre, whom I have very bad feelings towards. During today though, I found that he was sided more towards those not on germy's wagon as being islamists. This is at odds with Norinel's argument which is to the contrary. I feel a sort of link between those two which I will go into soon.

Norinel

: Replaced Friday who I also had bad feelings towards. As I said during today he argued for a different perspect to Yosarian's about germy's lynch. Now he sides towards those being on the wagon as being islamists. Thing is these points on their own aren't enough to incriminate them, but as I read through the arguments I got a feeling that the discussion was somewhat staged. Think about it? germy's wagon avalanched into a lynch very quickly, hence this'll be the day's top disucssion topic. Since the islamists only need 1 member to stay alive to the end to win two of them are expendable. What better way to keep one person alive by place an islamist each on two different sides of the coin. Whichever side the town takes with the germy wagon at least one of the islamists will be siding with the majority, hence making him look less scummy, giving him a bigger chance of suviving to the end.

The other reason I think this argument is staged is because I personally feel that discussion about germy's wagon is highly unnecessary. I as well as some others would probably feel that the wagon went along by natural means and that it wasn't planned per se. Looking back I couldn't really see much to look into...especially since germy hammered himself before the wagon could be further disected. Yet Yosarian and Norinel still discussed the germy wagon. I'm not going to say that the discussion is useless, but it certainly went longer than necessary, making me believe that this discussion served more than just finding the islamists.

Zindaras

: Replaced Rasta who I originally thought was scum, but turns out Rasta's scumtell really wasn't a scumtell after all. I think prior to today he's been pretty much staying under the radar since I hadn't really gotten a major vibe on him. Nonetheless my argument with him suggested to me he's scummy due to over-reactions and such. But as the day unfolded I'm compelled to think otherwise since he's been pushing others pretty aggressively too. But the things he's been pushing for seems very town like to me. Also I can't find any links between he and anyone, so I'm pinning him as town.

Lucresia

: Lurk-tastic. He's the only original SL wagoners that hasn't been replaced and his behaviour hasn't changed at all. He was definateling working with Friday and Cadre with SL's wagon but these links disappeared after the other two were replaced. I'm thinking that their (islamists) plans have changed to a more covert one (which is more likely since Friday and Cadre were both inexperienced players as opposed to their more experienced replacements). But after that I haven't witnessed anything particularly protown from him. Right now I have him tagged as Islamist.

==========

So in summary.

Town

: Zindaras, Kingpin

Islamist

: Norinel, Yosarian2, Lucresia

Communist

: TSQ

[sprontalic]

I'm just posting to say that I'm still here and reading.

This new twist from CES is interesting and I'm not sure what to think of it. I'm going to let this play out a little longer before I form an opinion on it.

[sprontalic]

Two reasons for that on my end. One is that both of the people you're trying to pin that on have been replaced, and it's hard enough explaining the actions of your predecessors when you knew they had a more complex role than townie to work with. The second is that, in general, Day 1 lynches are less informed than late mid-game lynches, so a misled townie is much more reasonable earlier. In this case, the Islamists have had much more reason to actively pursue townie lynches when they're closer to winning, so I think the germy wagon is a much better place to look.

I'm not sure what Zindaras is refering to, but when I alluded to this I was referring to the initial bandwagon that consisted only of Friday, Lucresia and Cadre. That wagon is hardly misled townies. There was

no

logic behind the wagon, not even craplogic. Hence the only reason I can see for following on is bandwagoning, something I can see newbie islamists doing.

However, after re-skimming the way the day went, I will say that if there was one or more islamists on the wagon, the most obveous choice would be Zindaras and/or spontiac. I could see islamists adding pressure to the wagon after they saw it get going, so that would be where I would expect them to be on the bandwagon; not the hammer, and not people actually driving the attacks against germy (me and TSQ), but in between.

I believe we've already had this conversation already and I've said that I'd been pushing for a germy/lyingbrian pair since the beginning. I was hardly "adding pressure to the wagon after they saw it get going" because frankly, I was one of the first to get the wagon going to begin with (ie get the wagon going before it even started).

==============================

Rereading CES' posts, I feel this sums up his argument against Zindaras.

1) His part in germy's lynch
2) Pointless discussion of how Islamists would act and by extension contentless discussion to mislead the town
3) Concentrating only on a couple of people, narrowing his lynch pool
4) Not pushing for Lyingbrian's lynch when he claimed president

Here is what I think of his points

1) This is ridiculous because I've already had this discussion with Zindaras. We both had ongoing reasons for voting him. Yes the lynch went a little too quickly, but 99% of that was because germy self voted. Surely if he's the most suspicious, it's not unreasonable to put him at lynch -1 straight away. The fact of the matter is, from memory (since I can't be bothered checking), all that was on germy's wagon had a reason to be on it. You can go into the whole "germy is the easiest random lynch for scum" business but then you're just messing with your own mind. There is

no

factor on that wagon that can discriminate between scum and town. Obviously for scum, germy was town...so he's a perfect target for a lynch. For townies, germy looks scummy as hell, so he's a reasonable target for a lynch too. So both town and scum were just as likely to jump onto that wagon. Hence I think this point is null. Besides if you believed this, why don't you point out the 3 other people who were also on that wagon?

2) I disagree with this too. I have no problem with discussing how the islamists would act. Why? Obviously they're working as a team but they do not have a kill. Their only way of surviving is to work together in some way. Yes they may have different play styles, but the teamwork element will shine through in some way, as such there will exist tells that says they're islamists. Also another advantage to this is

if

there were strategies employed by the islamist groups which were by chance identified the islamists may change their strategy, which may then become obvious upon a reread hence allowing us to catch them. Anyway I believe all strategy talk is beneficial to town. Point is one can tell during these discussions whether someone is geniunely trying to help the town with valid suggestsions, or trying to misled the town with craplogic. As such by saying discussions os strategy is useless and distracting is a grave mistake, since you're essentially robbing the town of a tool that will help them catch scum.

3) Perhaps that's true, but at least he's moving on from people to people while forming a judgement on others. I'll agree that looking at a small amount of people can potentially narrow down the lynch pool, but by looking at people individually, finer, incriminating details can be found which isn't as clear when looking at a wide range of suspects. But this I believe is just different play styles at work since each have their own ups and downs. The thing I want to point out though, is that you are doing exactly what Zindaras was doing that you found scummy. You're only concentrating on Zindaras, no one else (don't argue that you're looking at Yosarian too, since you've hardly touched him in comparison to Zindaras).

4) Theres plenty of reasons not to push for a Lyingbrian lynch. I'm going to stand up and admit that I didn't see Nai as the president before he counterclaimed. But the fact is Lyingbrian may simply be a crappy president who actually did intentionally drag attention on himself while Nai's pursuit of a lynch after his claimed was a commie trying to get rid of the president without the need to counterclaim. It's not likely, but as you said everything in this game is subjective. When the first objective thing in the game surfaces, I believe it should override any subjective thought that exists, which I believe is what most people did when they unvoted Lyingbrian after his claim. Again many people did this, so why are you only attacking Zindaras for it but not the 4-5 other people who unvote Lyingbrian as well?

After rereading CES' posts, I noticed that he's pushing Zindaras very very hard yet pretty much left Yosarian2 alone even though throughout he maintains that he's building up a case against both (when in reality his case against Yosarian is quite weak). Also I'm getting the impression that CES is being much more aggressive to Zindaras then to Yosarian, even though according to him, they're both just as suspicious. In short, I don't like his case against Zindaras. I think he's just trying to pick crap to get rid of a townie so his islamists buddies can win quickly. Funny that he chose Zindaras over Yosarian, it seems like a ploy to make himself look more unbias while at the same time, going for the quick townie lynch.

==================================

Now a quote that I feel is worth noting, although Zindaras has just addressed it a bit (but since I've spend ages compiling this, I'm not going to waste it)

The ShadowLurker-lynch was driven by 1. LyingBrian, 2. Jathan's use of profanity and 3. day 1 shenanigans. I don't think it's particularly relevant Today. I don't see why I should've mentioned it.

I disagree. The SL wagon was never even worth considering. The only reason it becamse significant was because the initial, baselss wagon reached 3 votes, which became a significant % of votes required for the lynch. At that stage Lyingbrian, most likely seeing an opportunity to lynch an innocent, went for the kill and hence spearheaded the wagon. Hence 1 was never the driving force. 2 I'm sure you'll agree is just a stupid reason and I don't believe in 3, that never would've happened if people had just stopped and thought about the wagon with their common sense. I believe that there were 2 misled townies (germy, who was obviously following Lyingbrian's lead) and Kingpin. As such I find it highly likely 5/7 voters in that wagon are islamists. The bandwagon was stupid, not well thought out and shouldn't have even happened. Yet it did. If you think about it Norinel's idea about germy's lynch can just as easily be applied to SL's lynch.

=====================

FOS: CES, Norinel, Yosarian2

for being islamists. I'm happy if we lynch any of these today.

FOS: TSQ

for being a communist.

[sprontalic]

I'm sorry for being inactive and lurking, but thing is all these pbpa is really hurting my head and still we're not really going anywhere. At this point I suggest we lynch Yossarian2 instead of Zindaras. I'm not convinced that Zindaras is scum although I am rather convinced that Yossarian is. I think we should lynch the person that most thing is scummy as opposed to one that only a couple think are scummy. The fact that no one else has voted for Zindaras tells me that no one (apart from CES) is really convinced that he's an islamist.

Anyway, I'm gonna address a few things.

Dude, bandwagons are a fact of life in Day 1s. This is covered in my point 3. And LyingBrian is who turned the bandwagon(a good thing) into a lynch(a bad thing).

It's true that bandwagons happen all the time in day 1, but on our specific day one, the wagon went out of control from the word go. Usually in day ones, you get a couple of wagons which start and stop and then eventually you'll settle on a wagon that most think is correct. The question wasn't really that the lynch was wrong as day 1 lynches are often wrong, that's true. But fact is, no other wagon really happened in day 1, all the attention was focused on 1 person. If the islamists and communists both pushed for that wagon at once (I think that the islamists first pushed the wagon, and then the commies went to back them up) then that's a good portion of the community pushing for a particular person. You can deny the fact that the logic behind the wagon is stupid, but the reason it could even turn into a lynch was because so many people advocated it. I'm sure you've heard the logic that a lie can be turned into a truth when enough people make it one. That's what I think happened hence the incredibly high number of scums on that wagon (5/12 people advocating for a specific wagon does hold a lot of weight).

I think it is the day before lynch or lose. (

regarding whether placing germy at -1 to lynch quickly is reasonable or not

)

I don't see why it is. Surely no one is stupid enough to speed lynch them TSQ style since that's scummy as hell, free lynch at lylo (which is definately not a bad thing, at least for non-scums anyway). If we ignore the fact that germy hammered himself (which as it turns out, is the worst mistake he could've made since he's put the town in a very very bad position) I strongly believe that the day would've lasted much longer, hence more time to justify/void the germy wagon.

And can I just say that I'm sick of these "I think this" with nothing backing up the statement. CES did it when he said "I disagree with your point 2", now you kinda did it with the "I think it is the day before lylo". You're not going far in terms of convincing me of anything if you do that.

@Yossarian2: I think Cadre was very suspicious. Ok lets just say that gut feeling is a perfectly legitimate reason for the start of day 1, the fact was I "asked" him about his gut feeling and even pointed out why there absolutely nothing to support his feeling, even trying to point otherwise...he continued to ignore it and go with "his gut" all the way through to the lynch.

That

is highly suspicious because you

don't

lynch anyone out of pure gut feeling even on day 1.

What does LyingBrian's vote have to do with it? And scum can also do harmless things. The death of a townie was not the logical result of the bandwagon. Holding it responsible for the death is nonsensical.

Uh actually the death of a townie was the logical result of that bandwagon, since it's so packed full of craplogic that the wagon is the worst smelling wagon you can ever see.

@Zindaras: I don't think no lynch is the best course of action today. We need to kill the next person ourselves. Leaving it for the commie is too big a risk to take. Besides if the commie no kills again then we're in the same position as now, it doesn't help anything.

This is absolutely wrong, since half of my point about germy's lynch is that Islamists could be much more forward about it in the late game, since they're two away from winning.

Two away from lynch is not the same as one away from lynch. If Islamists piled on in 2 away from lynch then they've exposed themselves, allowing them to be lynched in subsequent days. How is that beneficial to them? Add the fact that germy was scummy as hell and you have yourself a WIFOM. On the one hand you have Islamists/Commies that want an easy lynch, on the other you have townies that geniunely want to lynch a commie and they thought germy was the last one. So which one is it? How can you tell?

I've always though that you were advocating seeing those on germy's wagon as more likely suspects as those that weren't. Fact is it makes no difference, and IMO exploring this prospect is simply a red herring. If not then, we're on the same wavelength.

I just read a bit further and noticed that you said that scums on the germy wagon would defend themselves by saying "germy was the obvious choice". Again this is a wifom. You have the scum who says "it's the obvious choice" as a defence, but then the town who says "it's the obvious choice" because they geniunely thought it was. If they are both pressured, surely they'd raise the same argument. Again how do you discriminate between the two just on that issue alone?

Now that Kingpin has been replaced and everyone's around I think it's time to throw another wagon into the mix.

Vote: Yossarian2

[sprontalic]

He pointed out that SL attacked Cadre for not random voting while moving his own vote all over the place. Now, I personally now that kind of irrational votehopping early on is a fairly normal playstyle for SL, but I can perfectly understand why a newbie like Cadre would think that was scummy. I thought it was scummy myself first time I played a game with SL. He further pointed out that all of those votes SL made were almost completly unsupported, and that most of SL's posts were basically just spam without anything helpful in them.

I said it wasn't scummy that he originally voted SL, but what was scummy was that he continued to do so without explaining himself. Also I had already shot down Cadre's "support" with a single word...sarcasm (this is my first time playing with Sl too, and I saw through his sarcasm easily). Yet he never unvoted until the end even after I later said "explain your gut feeling" which he said he would but never did.

And in any case there's nothing scummy with voting on day one based on nothing but "gut" anyway, as that's usally most of what you have to go by. If anything, his reasons for being on that bandwagon were significantly better the the reasons the other 6 people on the bandwagon gave, and there's no logical reason for you to be voting for me instead of for one of the other people on the bandwagon.

Actually Cadre had no reason going into the lynch. I already said it's not scummy to vote based on gut, but to carry that vote to a lynch is extremely careless, and antitown. He had no other reason supporting the vote besides what you posted, and later is was agreed upoin that SL was being sarcastic, yet Cadre never rescinded his vote. Hence scummy.

Zinderas and CES both expressed some suspicion of me, so now you've decided to try and use crap logic and misrepresentations to try and get me lynched. I can not imagine a pro-town person putting down a vote in a lynch or lose situation based on so little, but I can certanly imagine an islamist trying to think of a good reason to vote for me.

In terms of individually, I think you, Norinel and CES as just as scummy as each other. However regarded together I find it highly likely you three are the islamists, especially after today's discussions. But since deadline is almost here I'm going to go for the easiest one to get lynched, that is you since to me it makes absolutely no different which three of you is lynched today.

Also I'd mentioned the Cadre thing ages ago, why vote me now based on that now as opposed to before?

[sprontalic]

Oh please. Jathans just playing around.

Cadre, as I already suggested, did you not think that maybe Shadowlurker was being sarcastic and making fun of you in his 'you must be scum' post? I took it as sarcasm the instant I saw it, making un of your playstyle. I think you're taking this a bit too seriously, basing a 'I think he's scum and I'm not going to think otherwise until he's dead' feeling on, what, five posts? Most of which, as you admitted, are spam?

And here is my post saying why SL was being sarcastic and why votes on him are not only stupid, but are opportunistic.

Wow 2 more pages since my last post...this game's going fast and I like!!!

I have absolutely no problem with Shadowlurker's play style at this stage. His first vote was a second vote yes, but I don't think theres much problem with that at the random voting stage. Being the second vote it doesn't increase the chances of a lynch dramatically and it also helps get us out of the random voting stage (which as someone before said is crap and spams up the game).

For those who are saying sarcasm is hard to read...obviously you guys don't read forums enough. SL is clearly trolling in this game...we can see that in post 24.

SL also jumped wagons on page 2...but I think that's more to ridicule Kingpin's prior comment about bandwagoning TSQ.

Post 37 I believe is also an attempt to ridicule Cadre...his wording in that post clearly implies that he's being sarcastic. Notice how he didn't follow it up with a vote?

That's why I believe those that are saying SL is scummy are being opportunistic, hence:

FOS: Friday 13th

Also the vote on Cadre is for the same thing, except that he pushed the notion much more aggressively. Also his gut feeling is clearly full of crap. Also post 52 kinda confirms it...it seems like a clear attempt at covering for being opportunistic.

Also

FOS: Lucresia

for looking at lurkers on page 3.

Now, proof that Cadre had in fact acknowledged what I posted but failed to act upon it, even though he agreed.

No scum vibes from it, but you make good points. I'll be more specific later, I'm running on 4 hours of sleep and can't think straight.

Then he does this without further reasoning as the lynch is about to occur.

Lots of stuff happened today, but I'm still comfortable with my vote for SL. Sorry I don't have anything else to say though...

Hence following the sequence of events, Cadre was scummy as hell. Although I'll admit that you haven't done anything particularly scummy, but that's because you joined us in day 2, when the game had pretty much taken a course that was almost impossible to divert from. In day 2 Lyingbrian was the obvious play, which you followed, then day 3 germy was the obvious play which you also followed. So there wasn't really much I could read on you (or in fact anyone else) during those 2 days. As for today, I don't think I've seen you do anything scummy or anything protown. But to reaffirm that I'm going to reread...

Start of day 4, you fosed, pretty much for the same reason you've voting me now. Then 2 posts later (which only involve discussion of strategy) you post why you voted for germy (which I'll consider as a post made in defence). Then the next 10 posts is either discussion of strategy, or defence. Then you make another fos followed by 1 post of rebuttal. Next is more defence and discussion until I voted for you, in which case all of a sudden you go and aggressively attack me.

My question is...why

have

you done to try and find scum? All you've done is throw a couple of fos'es then follow it up with a post or 2. After that you leave is and just start pointing out other people's ideas and thowing in a bit of your own. I have no problem with strategy discussions, but fact is that's all you're doing (besides defending yourself). You've hardly made any effort to finding scum. Also you completely ignored and hence distanced yourself from the argument between Zindaras and I. Although you've been doing things in day 2+3, you've basically been sitting in the sidelines occasionally throwing in ideas here and there and then coming in to defend yourself when someone names you. The biggest proof of this is, my argument against you is exactly the same as the one I used in the beginning of today. Why did you choose to attack me back for it just now but not back then? The only difference between the circumstances is that I voted you this time instead of fosed you.

It's this kind of behaviour that I would expect from an islamist now...staying active but not really commiting to anything. Hence I feel that you're scum.

========================================

Maybe scum piling on will be lynched in subsequent days, maybe they'll say it was such an obvious choice and it won't. You're the one using WIFOM, because you're arguing that you as scum wouldn't take a particular course of action because it would make you look obviously suspicious, ignoring the fact that it gave you the ability to use that argument.

Now we're at the situation SL was in now. I suggested the WIFOM to show that those on germy's wagon are not necessarily scum, but not necessarily town either. I'm not saying that I'm town by being on germy's wagon, but I'm saying it doesn't necessarily make be scum either.

I'd think townies on the germy wagon would be more interested in looking for who encouraged their mistake than trying to write off their (And consequently everyone else on the wagon's) participitation by calling it the obvious choice.

Actually I would think the reverse would happen. A townie would jump on the wagon with good reason, find out his mistake but then have enough proof to back up their decision. I think scum would be the ones trying to find a scapegoat for the mistake thinking that they'd exposed themselves by it (particularly true for the islamists).

Also, that's not WIFOM by my definition either. How do you define it?

No it probably isn't...but I don't know what word to use for it. It's almost like reverse WIFOM but heck the principle is basically the same. I'm kinda using WIFOM in a 3rd person perspective as opposed to a 2nd/1st person perspective (as one would when they're using it as a defence). For clarity though, I think WIFOM is when someone says "they can't be this because if they were, they wouldn't have done that" when in truth the benefits would have been exactly the same either way, or the situation doesn't actually distinguish between either roles.

[sprontalic]

1. Attacking Cadre for a bad reason

Clearly his reasons were sarcastic and not meant to be taken seriously. It'd be the same as me saying you're scummy because you have a crap avatar. You can't expect to take that seriously. Besides he didn't even support it with a vote, which further shows that he was just playing around.

2. Vote hopping without any reasons

Nothing else was happening at the moment. I'll admit that this is a good reason to vote in the beginning, but it's not a good enough reason to lynch someone with.

3. A large % of SL's posts being meaningless

Again, it was the beginning of the game. How can you create content where there is none to be found?

Now, he said (and I think it's pretty clear he was mostly just skimming by this point, I would guess because he didn't really have enough time to play mafia anymore), that you had "some good point", and he might have agreed with you eventaully abotu #1, SL's attack on him, but to say "he didn't have any reasons for keeping a vote there" based on that one line is quite a strech.

Well I'm not posting cause I don't have anything useful to say. Next time I have something worth saying I'll say it, until then I'm just gonna bite my tongue...

This post alone shows that he had ample time to rethink his ideas and to rebut against him if he was so sure. But then he just chose to ignore it until I asked him a second time. Even then he failed to rebut/add ideas. And no I don't buy the excuse that he had no time not only because he had 3 days between his last 2 posts, and also his last posts clearly shows that he had nothing else to add. If he had nothing else to add, then I can only assume that he's still standing by his old reasoning, or standing by his gut feeling because they are the only things he's used so far to support his vote. As I pointed out these are bad reasons to lynch someone for so that act alone is scummy. It's not enough to say that SL is worthy of a vote at that stage, the question is whether he's worthy of a lynch or not, and by the reasons Cadre provided, no he's not worthy of a lynch. Yet he didn't retract his vote which shows that he clearly was after SL's head, and IMO for bad reasons too.

In any case, it's almost certanly not true that SL's post was just "sarcasm". It wasn't a strong attack, of course, and he didn't attach a vote to it, but you don't call someone scum without at least trying to poke at him.

Oh comeon look at the context. He was being stupid and erratic from the word go. You can't expect anyone to take him seriously after his random vote hopping (which I might add were clearly done as a bit of fun).

I was hardly a "follower" in either case. As soon as I re-read the game, I thought lying brian looked scummy from his very first post, which i laid out in great detail from the moment I started playing,; at the point I voted for lying brian, post 222, there were only two other votes for him. You did not join that bandwagon until post 234. I was also the first person to vote for germy on day 3.

It wasn't hard to find incriminating evidence against LB or germy. But I'm not necessarily saying you're scum for joining the wagon, rather that it neither proves your innocence or scumminess.

So, you don't think the way I was agressivly hunting scum during those two days means anything, huh?

I don't think you were anymore aggressive than many other people. This was the point I'm trying to make when I said you joined in the two days where targets were pretty well established. So no, your aggressive attack of LB and germy doesn't really support your case.

Along with that, every good guy should be trying quite hard to both find scum and not get lynched today.

You haven't done a lot in finding scum.

Why didn't you vote for me based on this stuff earlier today? Or back on day 3 for that matter?

Theres no deadline back then, there is now. And I'm sick of this game stalling so I'm taking the plunge. As for day 3, germy was the better deal. If we can get another commie, then that's always the better option.

If you've thought all along that I was scummy since day 1, why did you follow me onto both the lying brian and the germy bandwagon?

Ever since Lyingbrian and germy had their exchange in day one, and Lyingbrian used bad logic to get SL lynched, I'd been looking their way the whole time so I kept the Cadre thing in the back of my mind. And no I never paid attention to anything you did since I stopped paying attention to replacements etc (I mistook Zindaras for Kingpin in day 2 because of it). The only people I had really suspected in day 2 were germy, TSQ, Lyingbrian and Kingpin (the latter of which was unintentional, due to mistaken identity, this was later rescinded anyway).

No, I think you've been trying to plant suspicion about as many people including me as you possibly could during this game

So you're saying I've been fabricating evidence throughout the game and also during today. Prove it to me. Show me where I've misintepreted, misquoted, taken things out of context etc if you're saying that I've been planting suspicion. If my accusations have been true, surely i can't be planting suspicion without the person being suspicious to begin with.

[sprontalic]

No, saying "I think your suspicious because you didn't random vote" is NOT the same as saying "I think you're suspicious because I don't like your avatar". Random voting is an actual in-game action, and I have seen people seriously attack each other for random voting, or not random voting, before. So no, I'm not entirely sure how seriously SL intended his attack, but I think anytime anyone says "I think you're scummy because you did X", you've got to take it seriously.

Ok bad example, the point stands though.

I'm going to just give up with the argument about Cadre now. We're going around in circles with it. Theres no way that I'm willing to accept that assumption that he's interest or is busy. Nor do I think his reasons were rational. Clearly you disagree with me in both counts so no point arguing this any longer.

You haven't done a lot in finding scum.

Well, I found one, which is pleanty for today.

You've voted and lynched 2 people and fos'ed 2 others in 3 days. Today you've made about 3-4 posts which directly concern finding scum by way of pointing the finger. If you would like me to do a pbpa of every one of your posts to prove it, I will.

I didn't say you were "fabricating evidence". I said you were throwing suspiciouns around at large numbers of people, just hoping that one of them stuck so you could take advantage of them later or hoping to undermine someone's position to make them easier to lynch later. Over the course of the game, you've FOS'd quite a few people, more then half of the people in the game in fact by my count, and then you sat back and waited to see where the lynch was going before you joined on.

If someone does something suspicious then I'm going to point it out. Also I fail to see how this cluster bomb method would help me. No matter what role I am there exists a set number of people I can't lynch. You're saying that I'm scummy because it looks like I'm just trying to get anyone lynched when in fact I can't regardless of my role. Also to prove you wrong I was completely against SL's lynch. If my plan was to do what you're saying, then wouldn't it have been easier for me to just jump onto the wagon instead of going against the majority? Then in day 2 although I did vote Lyingbrian at one stage, I wasn't part of his lynch (although I did express support for it). Then in day 3 my first post was a vote on germy...so tell me, how have I just sat in the background waiting for a wagon to start before joining in?

[sprontalic]

You already did agree that his reasons for voting were rational. The only debating ground you've got left to stand on is some kind of artifical division you're trying to create between "good enough to vote for" and "good enough to not unvote as the bandwagon looks like it might head towards a lynch", which is a rather flimsy distintion to try to make on day 1.

There is a clear distinction between good enough to vote and good enough to lynch. Good enough to vote = voting someone then pressure them for further evidence. Good enough to lynch = good enough to say they are scum. Just because it's day one doesn't mean you should do a half-assed job and lynch someone whose done something the slightest bit scummy. What SL did was worthy of a beginning day 1 vote because it was something where there was nothing. But that wagon generated lots of discussion, hence by the end of it it was no longer a valid reason to vote or even lynch him with. By sticking to a half-assed reason (which was that he placed a second vote and made one suspicious post) and carrying it through to the lynch shows that he throw his vote into the pot, then sat around and waited till the lynch happened without doing anything to try and stop it. This is lurking at it's worst.

That is true; I didn't feel like i had a good idea of who the islamists were at the start of this day, and I wasn't going to go tearing off half-cocked in some random direction a lynch or lose. In this kind of situation, the scum usually give themselves away by acting differently then town would in a lynch or lose, and that's what I was waiting for before I made my move.

So you're going to catch scum by lurking? What a useful strategy! Theres no need to vote for someone to try and catch scum. Look at what CES has been doing, look at what Zindaras has been doing, look at what I've been doing. We've been rereading past post, looking for links and questioning people over past actions.

That

is scum hunting, not sitting around and waiting for something to happen.

Well, I'm sure that some of the FOS's you made were attempts to distance yourself from your scum partners; usually when a scum atttacks large numbers of people like that they're not all good guys. However, I suspect that the majority of your attacks were attempts to spread suspicion as widely as possible. etc

So you're speculating. Well you continue doing that because I can't exactly defend against dellusion.

Scum often defend townies to try to look more townie-ish, and to "make a friend". You defending one person who was townie, while attacking everyone else in the town, does not prove anything.

I'm not trying to say that it proves my innocence. I'm using it to prove that I'm not "planting suspicion, then jumping on when the wagon has gained momentum".

In both cases, you had attacked the person early and spread suspicion about them, but didn't join the bandwagon until it was clear that they were going to be lynched.

Ummm no. I never voted for LB hence technically I never "joined" the wagon. As for germy notice how I finished day 2 with a vote on him. Technically I was on the wagon before day 3 even started, hence one of the first. And I'm sorry that I didn't wake up at 3am in the morning just so I can be the first to vote germy.

as no one, not even SL, ever bothered to explain it to him.

As for the idea that he must have been either losing interest or was busy or something like that; well, something like that must have happened, as he needed to be replaced. That seems obveous.

I made a brief explanation of why I saw it as sarcasm (post 78 or something). If Cadre didn't agree he should've said something. He had posted 4 contentless posts between then and the lynch, two of which were posts saying "I'm here but I have nothing to say". This is not what you say when you're losing interest/busy hence I don't buy these two excuses.

Other people who were on the SL bandwagon:

As I've said, I believe 5/7 on the SL wagon were scum. Friday, Lucresia and Cadre for being the first 3 to hop onto the wagon in quick succession. TSQ for his hammer, and LB. Then we have the two misled townies germy and Kingpin.

Everyone who was on that wagon had bad reasoning to join it, hence I believe a pattern is the more reliable thing to look for here, leading me to believe that the first three are the islamists.

[sprontalic]

BS. When have I ever lurked?

Sitting on the sidelines and not providing any input is as bad as lurking.

Yes, I am looking at what you, CES, and Zinderas are doing. I am also convinced that 2 out of the 3 of you are islamist scum, so that dosn't prove much.

Why didn't you provide your input before?

Umm yes, you did vote for lying brian. You voted for him after I did. You later left the bandwagon, perhaps knowing it would go to a lynch and not wanting to be on it when that happened? I'm not sure your motives, but you DID vote for lying brian, you DID join that bandwagon, and you are now lying about it.

Yes I voted for him once...in fact I voted for him twice throughout the course of the game. But the point is I wasn't on the wagon when he was lynched. Also the only people I really attacked prior to day 3 was Lyingbrian, TSQ and germy. Your theory doesn't even fit in with that time frame.

Right; you started going after germy on day 2, based on his links to lying brian. Which again dosn't make a lot of sense; if you think person A is scum, and you think person B is linked to person A, you lynch person A first. Unless you are trying to plant suspicion and set up lynches in advance.

By the time I started going after germy, Lyingbrian = dead anyway. I don't believe in wasting time so I moved onto my next suspicion. And it wasn't just his link to Lyingbrian, it was also that he support Lyingbrian right up until he claimed/was counterclaimed when his position changed completely.

So...why not vote for one of the more suspicious people on the bandwagon? Perhaps you're some kind of psychic who knows with certainty exactly who are scum and who are not scum, but most normal townies would actually go after the person who is MOST suspicious first. I think your attacks on me, as opposed to one of the other, more scummy looking people on the bandwagon, or one of the other people you've FOS'd, are pure scummy opportunism; you're attacking me because you think you can get me lynched, no more and no less.

TSQ is the next most suspicious person, but I think he's a commie so lynching him would be a mistake. So it's between you, friday (Norinel) and Lucresia (CES). As far as I'm concerned Friday and Lucresia were both terrible lurkers that didn't do much. Cadre also lurked later in the game so they're all just as scummy on the account. However It's Cadre's poor reasoning that is making me go for you as opposed to anyone. But as I said multiple times today, I don't care which one of you gets lynch, as long as one of you is lynched today I'm happy. So yes I am going for you because it'd be easier for you to be lynched. As for as I'm concerned though, the outcome will be the same.

[sprontalic]

Because I hadn't realized what you were doing until you voted in a lynch or lose situation for an easy target with a really bad reason. How many times do I have to say that

I'm not talking about that. You said you found Zindaras and I scummy...why say it now but not before? Don't tell me one post made you change your perpsective all of a sudden.

You were prepared, from the very start of the game, to lynch multiple people. You laid the groundwork for the lying brian lynch and for the germy lynch. Then you went after kingpin. After that, you went after Zinderas. After that, you went after me, and said you were willing to lynch either, CES, Norinel, or me.

I attacked Kingpin for about 1 post, since then I'd abandoned that train of thought. I attacked Zindaras for a while but have since abandoned that too. If I really wanted to just kill anyone surely I'd hop onto the Zindaras wagon, which had been going on for a while. Just like the SL wagon I could just hop on and not be suspected of a thing. Also I have already affirmed that my stance is pretty much established when I posted the list. If I were going to do such a clusterbomb method, don't you think it'd be more likely that I'd make my position more vague than I did.

Whenever you went after a bad lynch, like the germy lynch or the vote against me, your defense afterwords was "Well, i had been going after that person for days!" You've been going after almost everyone for days, probably to set you up so you could go after anyone today.

I never said I was after you for ages. I only started looking your way in the middle of today (well seriously anyway).

You had "suspicious feelings towards cadre", and "some other people" found me suspicious, so you thought it was "not unreasonable" to say I was scum. And you had "hunches" about Norniel and Lucresia.

And yet, you're willing to go from that to being willing to lynch any of the three of us in a lynch or lose situation? You're attacking Cadre for voting based on "gut', but I've got to say that his reasons for his day 1 vote were much stronger then the logic behind all of your suspicions today.

Nothing the three of you has said today has challenged my feelings. In fact it has reaffirmed them. Hence I'm more happy then ever to have any of you lynched today.

[sprontalic]

unvote
vote: No Lynch

Another day to discuss sure sounds awefully sweet to me.

[sprontalic]

heh this' gonna be fun to watch.

I'm going to reread/consolidate my thoughts. Y2's claim is certainly unexpected, hence throwing my ideas out the window. Will make a more comprehensive post tomorrow.

[sprontalic]

So I guess that RAF game isn't happening...how disappointing.

Before I did a reread, I thought about Yossarian2's claim, and all I can say is the claim is highly unexpected. I do have doubts about it's credibility however since I believe TSQ has a better commie profile than Yossarian does, but still I guess the fact that last night went without a kill tells me that theres a chance he might be. Although this doesn't rule TSQ out as the commie since a kill would also be disadvantageous to him. Either way I think we've narrowed the commies down to two people which's good.

Nonetheless if you consider the consequences of the claim I don't think that it's likely to be true. Out of all the senarios possible I think a commie would be the least likely to pull this move. Fact is if a commie claims, there is no way he can win anymore regardless of what he does. If ever a day comes when an islamist lynch isn't necessary he'd die which means he loses. Otherwise all days will have equal number of townies as islamists...I believe if day reaches the point where it's one from each faction it's an automatic islamist win (the first post doesn't provide this senario, but from the wording of the islamists role, I think this is the case). In other words if Y2 is a commie, a claim would definately mean a loss no matter what he does.

If Y2 was a townie however he's essentially freed himself from being lynched today, which means a lower chance of a town loss (since there'll be less townies that can be lynched). This allows the town to augment their chances of a win (they are more likely to hit an islamist today) but dimishes their chances later (if ever a day comes when an islamist lynch is unnecessary, or when theres only one commie left, he'll be the one that's lynched). Of course if he plays it right he could convince the town that he lied about his claim to try and help the town. This is a long shot but due to the circumstance, I think there is a good chance that this happened.

If Y2 was an islamist however, he could claim without risk of losing. If his claimed wasn't believed he'd die but still give his faction a fighting chance to survive and win. On the other hand he gives the islamists a better chance of making a false lynch today (since there are less islamists that can be lynched) hence giving them a better chance of winning it right here right now. Although here he does run the risk of getting himself lynched when an islamist lynch isn't necessary. This is a gamble but again under the circumstances it's probably one that he'd be willing to take.

Also from the way he's been acting today (ie still staying interest in the game) I'd say he's definately not a commie, but rather a townie or islamist. If he were a commie, it's game over for him, theres no point in him staying interested in the game. Out of the two choices, I would say that he is an islamists due to the way he's acted in the past. But right now I'm not willing to jump to conclusion.

Having said all this, I'm going to

vote: CES

Although TSQ is scummy, it doesn't mean he's definately the islamist. To assume that Yossarian's claim is true and hence assume that TSQ is an islamist is extremely careless and reeks of lynching the easiest person possible. Clearly CES didn't think about the consequences of the claim carefully and constructed some kinda of plan around it, such as setting up TSQ for a later lynch in order to push for an islamist win.

FOS: Norinel

for the same thing.

[sprontalic]

And it's a silly claim for an Islamist to make, because it will only end up getting him nightkilled. Remember, the biggest threat to the Commie right now is the Islamists.

If the last commie is TSQ, the best action he can make is to keep Y2 alive. Because if he nightkilled him last night, there's no need to lynch an islamist today hence he'd definately be on the chopping blocks, insuring his loss.

Also, Yostownie does not lie to the town. I'm sure of that.

His lynch was imminent, it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to do it in order to give the town a chance to survive. As they say desperate times call for desperate measures. Although a lie would mean he'll likely die for it later, but at least it'll still give them a slime chance of winning whereas if he was lynched yesterday, they're chance of winning is 0%.

And I'm trying to lynch Zind here, not TSQ.

Doesn't matter, the fact that you said "Thestatislamist" tells me that you're automatically assuming that TSQ is not a commie but rather an islamist. That assumption is too easy to make.

[sprontalic]

If TSQ is the last commie, then he would need to get Yosarian2 killed somehow. We aren't going to lynch him like this, so he will have to kill him.

Yes that's true, but the obvious play for TSQ is to not kill Y2 last night since that leaves him open today, am I right? Actually Y2's claim could be highly beneficial to him because by leaving Y2 alive, he can take the hit for him on a day where it's unnecessary to lynch islamist.

I do think TSQ is an Islamist, but your accusation that I'm going after an easy target becomes moot when I'm not trying to get him lynched today.

But your complete ignorance in Y2's claim (which really wasn't that hard to figure out) is a completely anti-town act.

Anyhow, why are you only suspicious of me as a result of trust in Yosarian2 but not of Zind?

Now you're just trying to misrepresent him. Just because Zind didn't express that he didn't trust Y2, doesn't mean that he actually does. He never said anything about Y2 definately being communist or TSQ definately being islamist. He never made a claim for either way which tells me absolutely nothing about what he thinks about Y2's claim. For all I know he's thinking like me or like you. But the fact that he didn't say anything conclusion tells me that he's unsure.

[sprontalic]

Wow I seriously wouldn't have picked Zindy and Kingpin/Apeiron as the last islamists. I thought I had it pretty much worked out though so I just went for broke. I still didn't really understand the case against Zindy though. Good work CES and Norry on that though.

The reason I didn't kill Y2 last night though, was because I needed 2 days in which islamists needed to be killed in order to cover my ass. That meant that hopefully TSQ would stay alive allowing me to frame him when the time comes to do so. What I was hoping for was for day 4 to be an islamist lynch so then I could kill a townie in night 4, followed by another islamist lynch. Once there I'd kill the last islamist and then put all the blame on TSQ during the endgame. So that's why I didn't kill Y2 because that would've thrown my plan way off track. Believe me though I had a hard time deciding whether to kill CES or Y2 or just no kill.

I think the 1 Islamist + 1 town + 1 commie endgame does result in an islamist win. Now this' what I think so I'll have to get Kelly's agreement but in the islamists PM it says:

Additionally, if a day phase begins with just one Republican (i.e. pro-town) player and equal numbers of Communists and Islamists, the Jungle Republic will descend into civil war, which will count as an Islamist victory also.

That was definately a good setup though, because Lyingbrian and I were settling in pretty comfortable when we were both still alive, but once he died I got thrown on the backfoot immediately. I knew that no one thought I was the last commie so I was kinda safe there (for the time being) but still, finding the other scum group was also an entirely different challenge in it's own. So yea this game was frustrating sometimes, but still good fun though. Congrats to Zindy, Y2 and Kingpin (and by extension Apeiron). And thanks Kelly for an awesome game with it's awesome setup.