Mini 392: Jungle Republic - Game over!

[Nai]

Confirmed.

[Nai]

Random Vote: Lucresia.

That's a very creepy image you have there.

[Nai]

Ah! So that's what it is. I thought I recognized it. Aren't they the guys that did "Video killed the radio star" or something?

It looks like Mojo Jojo on crack.

[Nai]

I wouldn't call this a bandwagon, with only two votes. It's interesting that KingPin called it as much, though I know he was following StatusQuo. Regardless, it's something to go off of.

Unvote, Vote: Kingpin.

[Nai]

FoS: ShadowLurker

. That's the second time in about six posts that you have followed someone else and voted for someone with no real reasoning of your own.

[Nai]

Eh, I'm just FoSing because there' not much else to go on yet. I voted for much the same reason, I just prefer my vote on KingPin to a vote on Shadow at the moment. It's interesting, though, that Friday jumps from one vote to the other like that that fast.

[Nai]

I actually had a reason, though. My first vote was random, my second vote had a real reason: Someone seemed interested in a two vote 'bandwagon'.

[Nai]

Oh, I saw what you meant Germy. But while mine was a quick-jump, I at least give information, which I think at least separates mine post from Shadow's.

[Nai]

If I didn't want to stay with my current vote on Kingpin, mostly to see what he says, that would have warranted an OMGUS vote, Cadre, for not recognizing obvious sarcasm, AND for having one of those "my gut feelings are always right" personalities.

[Nai]

Cadre, as I already suggested, did you not think that maybe Shadowlurker was being sarcastic and making fun of you in his 'you must be scum' post? I took it as sarcasm the instant I saw it, making un of your playstyle. I think you're taking this a bit too seriously, basing a 'I think he's scum and I'm not going to think otherwise until he's dead' feeling on, what, five posts? Most of which, as you admitted, are spam?

[Nai]

From what I've seen so far, Shadow is most likely scum. I know it's only been two pages but I've got a gut feeling he's gonna end up with an anti-town role. I'm not gonna vote yet though, I'd like to confirm that feeling first...

Cadre is definitely scum for not random voting and only mentioning one person in his first post.

I don't know, Cadre. Call it a gut instinct. Or maybe the fact that I can't see any way you could possibly look at that post that could make it make sense and NOT be sarcasm?

[Nai]

I find it really easy to figure out if someone is sarcastic. This is how you tel. Run each suspected sarcasm statement by this question:

"Does this statement make any sense whatsoever if it is meant to be serious?"

If the answer is no, you have a sarcastic statement. If it says yes, ask yourself this next:

"If the statement does make sense when serious, while making sense, does it make any sense in the CONTEXT?"

Chances are every sarcastic comment will have a 'no' to one or the other of these questions. This was today's version of "Nai's tips to replace everyday common sense." Tune in next time, when we teach you how to tell if there actually IS a point to finding scum on day 1!

[Nai]

Mafia, being the guys that don't get night kills, are likely to be acting just like regular townies as much as possible. Since this is not a mafia with unique role names, they can just slip by. They'll act like vanillas, they'll talk like vanillas, they'll claim vanillas, really.

The werewolves... i'm less sure on. They have the night kill, and they also want to kill EVERYONE. But they'll not be homicidal maniacs, they'll try to act like everyone else.

[Nai]

Ah, didn't see that it was up this fast. I'm here.

[Nai]

I'm in the same boat as Cadre, here. There's not much going on, so there's not much for me to say, really. This recent exchange between Lying Brian and Germy seems a bit off, but nothing I can put my finger on.

[Nai]

Vote: LyingBrian

It is my opinion that, though thetatusquo quick lynched Shadowlurker, there was a huge bit between LyingBrian and Shadowlurker that leaves not much to the imagination. Lyingbrian was the driving force behind that lynch, and I think he's the guilty one between them.

[Nai]

LyingBrian: Yes, you are just one person on a 7 person bandwagon, this I agree with. However, you were also the driving force behind it. You basically started it, you carried it, you got people to agree with you, and you argued until Shadowlurker was killed. This, I believe, makes you a driving force. If Shadowlurker was scum, you'd practically be cleared in my eyes. But since he's town, and since you so emphatically went after him (mostly on his playstyle, though I was busy a lot and didn't read very in depth, just 'skimming' mostly), you look very scummy in my eyes.

TSQ: Wait wait wait... You're telling the audience here that you hammered him because you "don't like his playstyle" and you "want the game to be fun"? Meaning, you had no real reason to hammer him other than the fact that you don't like him, and it's just a running joke between you two? WOW! That seems VERY town to me. I mean, it's SO town that it goes right out the other side and becomes probably the scummiest thing I've ever heard in a game, and I've played against Coron's/Fritzler's arguments.

[Nai]

Ack! No, that wasn't directed at you. I mixed up your post with Germy's while writing that to Germy. Let me fix it to how it's SUPPOSED to be read (sans problems from not sleeping much in over 24 hours [much meaning 2 hours]):

Germy

: Wait wait wait... You're telling the audience here that you

voted

him because you "don't like his playstyle" and you "want the game to be fun"? Meaning, you had no real reason to

vote

him other than the fact that you don't like him. WOW! That seems VERY town to me. I mean, it's SO town that it goes right out the other side and becomes probably the scummiest thing I've ever heard in a game, and I've played against Coron's/Fritzler's arguments.

Bolded is where the changes should be made to that. However, I had accidentally spliced into that comment something that was directed at you, STQ:

You're saying you hammered him because it's just something you do with him? You do this in chat mafia and you think that hammering him, before he can even claim, is okay? It's a custom of yours to hammer him at moments that are inconvenient to the town? As I said about Germy: It's so town that it goes right out the other side and becomes scummy.

FoS: Germy, TSQ

[Nai]

I've heard that argument before, usually phrased as "This is how I always play, so it's not scummy."

The argument is a complete fallacy. Sure, you can do it on both sides of the coin. But on THIS side, you nailed a townie.

[Nai]

I'm really content with my vote right now, because I really think that LyingBrian is the scummiest guy in the game. TSQ and Germy are both coming up at close second and third. And since we have a fair number of scum (and two scum groups), I'd be willing to bet that all three are scum.

LyingBrian, however, seems the most scummy in my eyes.

[Nai]

do you mind explaining why? you said yourself in post #185 that you agree w/ my point, so i'm not sure why you think i'm scummy...

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Where did I say I agreed with your point? This is post 185 in its entirety.

I've heard that argument before, usually phrased as "This is how I always play, so it's not scummy."

The argument is a complete fallacy. Sure, you can do it on both sides of the coin. But on THIS side, you nailed a townie.

And that comment was in reference to post 184 by TSQ:

i already said, Nai. I do it on both sides of the coin, so it can't be a tell.

I believe this statement to be a complete fallacy. If your playstle is scummy, no matter how you play it, if you play it when you're scum, it's a tell. Playing with a scummy style is metagaming so you're good as scum and town, and I don't trust it.

So where was I agreeing with you, LyingBrian? I don't see you responding to that post in any way. You MIGHT be talking about Shadowlurker. As I had said before, I had only caught up after the day ended, and didn't read very in depth, just caught the relative gist of it. Which was Shadowlurker arguing about playstyle. However, you and I have a very different road on this argument:

I

am not voting for TSQ on the ground of 'scummy playstle'. I'm voting for YOU on the grounds that I believe you are scum for completely driving a bandwagon. True, you were only one vote on that wagon. HOWEVER, you were also providing all the argument, it seemed, being the only one arguing against Shadowlurker while everyone else piled on. And since Shadowlurker ended up town, that makes me think YOU are scum. In an open game, with only one doc, plowing up the road that fast just seems too scummy.

Chamber was abducted. Why?

I'm not sure on this either. I'd wager that the scum realized that most of the players, currently, are helping them rather than hurting them. They really had nothing to lose by killing him, since he couldn't be one of them, and he could be either of the other two groups. The fact that he was a lurker and wasn't helping them finish off the other two groups might play a part.

friday-13th: for applying his logic to players selectively. Which partially implicates Nai.

Can you explain how this implicates me?

That is not my argument. My argument is not that we cant know my allignment at this juncture. This is because all you are going off of is a nul tell. This is important because if you can't tell my alignment from what I did, then there is no reason to vote me for it. My argument was never that I am concretely not scum, my argument is that this particular thing does not make me scum or town, so you shouldn't be using it to base a vote off of it, and there is nothing else to implicate me as scum right now, so at this juncture, THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK I'M SCUM.

Stop straw manning me, and actually read the argument.

You see, this is just another fallacy. We CAN use what you did to worry at your alignment. We CAN because it's a SCUM move, no matter what YOU do in general. SCUM are the ones that don't want the town to get info. The more info the town has, the better informed decisions they can make, which leads to better lynches, which is exactly what the scum doesn't want.

As such, by quick-lynching Shadowlurker before she was allowed to at least claim, you have not only denied the town information (under the pretext of "Shadowlurker must be quick lynched

sometimes

". Care to explain the exact eventualities on which this quick lynch is required?), you have also quick lynched a townie, which is FURTHER detrimental to the town. Case in point, these are scum tells regardless of if you do them all the time, and you're scummy for it.

I'm not going to quote Germy's entire post 207. I want to say that I agree with the reasoning here. You can easily hide behind metagaming. I can easily say that you can't label me as scum for any action I take because I, in general, play differently in every game as I get more experience. But that's not a good argument, since is basically says that there's no way you can pin something on me, which is entirely incorrect. The way you play in your game is what should be focused on, not how you played previously.

[Nai]

Actually, my guess was that the Commies thought he was the Seer. The Commies really can't afford losing even one of their number. I'd say the Seer is their prime target.

You may have a point there, but you'd think they'd go after someone a little more active. I'd be more afraid of an active member going against the flow that I want than I would an unactive player that just helps me by not voting.

I also think I can make a statement that will clear things up: There are no universal scum tells.

And you call us dumb. Let me shed light on this, since you seem to be unable to accept any argument but your own:

It doesn't matter if there are no universal scum tells. It doesn't matter if there are no scum tells at all. What DOES matter is the fact that YOU seem scummy to several people. That's all. It doesn't matter if it's a scum tell, if you do it every game, if you think you're immune to any suspicion at all. YOU can't rule the choices of otehrs. YOU can just defend yourself. And, currently, you're cursing us and insulting us because we won't accept your argument, which is childish to the extreme and shows a lack of knowledge about how this game works.

Yes, Zin. Noobs are much more likely to make 'the big bad everyone knows' scum tells than experienced players are. With experienced players, you have to meta game them in order to figure them out. I need to check out a few of your games.

Wow... Can you say 'hypocritical'? You just told us that there's no such thing as a universal scum tell. Then you tell us that, no, actually, they work on noobs, but any experienced player is immune. You tell us that metagaming is the ONLY way to beat a real player. Riiiiiight...

If that was true, experienced players would play FOR the metagame. They'd act stupidly in several games to set a record for themselves. If a player did that, I wouldn't call them 'experienced'. I think an 'experienced' player plays the best they can. I think this whole 'metagaming' bit is just trying to weasel out of a very good argument against you.

Because I'm wondering which one of the three people going after me is opportunistic scum, and which two are just dumb town. I think I have king pin pegged as town, so it's either Nai or Lying brian who will be recieving my vote.

Wow. Funnily enough, a few pages ago he was saying I was town. Now, because I think he's scummy, I've been completely upgraded towards 'scummy/scum'. That's amazing. Vindictive much?

What about Kingpin? I think the whole deal with Rasta is the biggest thing we have yet.

Can you explain this, please? I think the biggest things we have going on right now are an attack against LyingBrian (I'm biased on this case, since it's my attack) and the bit against TSQ's hammer. How does the whole Rasta thing trump that?

[Nai]

Oh, I'd be planning on lynching TSQ tomorrow, LyingBrian. But, as I've stated, you seem the scummiest right now to me. He's coming in close second. However, my gut says you are scum. My gut also says he's scum, so it's really a toss-up right now. But, seeing as you have the most votes (not that it would matter if my vote was flipped), I think I'll be leaving my votes for now.

Right now, it seems like you are distancing yourself from TSQ. He's scummy, many votes. You're scummy, many votes. Chances are, both of you will be lynched. But the way you are playing seems more "if I get lynched today and come out scum, he might be able to get away with it" than "I'm town and I think he's scum."

[Nai]

I think he's lying scum, trying to get himself out of a lynch, and trying to get the real President to claim so that his scum group can get him. It's interesting that he didn't say anything about having investigated anyone.

[Nai]

Gah, remind me to read slower. I missed that. However, I still think he's scum making a last minute gambit to save himself and get the cop to counterclaim. Something I hope the cop doesn't do, because we'll lose him if he does.

[Nai]

Yes, I AM driving your bandwagon. And if you turn up town, I'll pay for it on the next game day. However, that's a chance I'm willing to take, because I'm pretty sure you are scum.

And, actually, your final sentence in that post finalizes it for me. I don't know any cop that actively states who he will investigate, as he could be roleblocked, his target could be killed, etc.

As well, there's also that 'semi-clear' bit. What should be so semi about it? You either get a positive or a negative. YOUR role, if you WERE a Seer (not), is to tell if anyone is a werewolf or not. That's it. So there's no 'semi-clear' in this situation. You checking me would say I'm either a werewolf (and thus one of the nightkillers) or not. That's it, the end. The Islamics are a different matter, and have nothing to do with you as a seer role (which I'll be dollars to ducats you aren't.)

Can we please lynch him?

[Nai]

You're scum. There is no ramifications, other than us getting closer the town's goal of winning the game.

[Nai]

I don't think that's true, Yosarian, that he has to be town. I think he's scum, have since I did a read to catch up. I think our cop is being intelligent and letting Brian dig his own grave so that he himself isn't outted. The cop SHOULD be waiting, I think, until he can find the other werewolf. He's more useful to us hidden and searching for our final NK scum.

[Nai]

Why do you assume so readily that he's a communist? I think there's a high chance of him being an islamist, too. Either way, town wins when he's lynched. I can't see a cop playing like LyingBrian has been, very recklessly and such.

I also find it very suspicious that you want the Seer to claim. Run this scenario through your head: Seer claims. LyingBrian dies. Seer dies during the night (as the communists can't let him live in this setup). That leaves town without our trump card. And YOU seem to want the seer to claim, just so you are satisfied that LB is not him.

Considering that we lost two townies already, we're almost set even among the three groups. There's a very high chance he's from the scum groups. Again, I am certain he's not town, and DEFINITELY not the Seer. You were convinced, it seemed, that he was scum, but all of a sudden he calls Seer and you're now unwilling to touch him? That's a very suspicious reversal.

[Nai]

Funny. I went, rather quickly, from TSQ convinced I was town, to TSQ thinking I'm scum, now he's convinced I am scum.

Why would you assume he's the Seer? Has he played like a cop? I've never known a cop to attract a lot of attention to himself, because he doesn't want the scum to go after him. LyingBrian has been an outright player in this game, and has made a lot of noise and waves. That doesn't sound like a cop to me. Especially the fact that he seemed suspicious of you yesterday, but then and investigated a very low key player. That doesn't sound very cop-like to me.

[Nai]

Y'know what, this is taking too long, especially with how he's acted. And since there doesn't seem to be any other way to get this across:

I'm claiming to be the actual President/Seer. After reading through the game after being inactive last game day, I noticed that LyingBrian seemed very suspicious, for the reasons I've stated today. I investigated him, and got a guilty result. LyingBrian is not only a communist, but has managed to out the REAL seer. Congratulations.

[Nai]

Please do. Note how I've been playing. Note how LyingBrian has been playing. This should be REALLY obvious, and also shouldn't have required me to claim.

[Nai]

Why the hell would you do that? You KNOW there is only one seer in this game. There is no reason in hell a townie should claim a role that isn't theirs. I don't know what Shadowlurker was playing at, but LyingBrian claimed, I was fighting that claim, and then counterclaimed. Why would you leave us BOTH alive?

See, if you leave us both alive, we enter a WIFOM situation. If I end up dead, you kill LyingBrian. But, because of that, they don't kill me, so the town lynches me, wasting a lynch. Then it's too late for you. You would have a small chance of hitting a communist today. If you don't, they'll probably hit a townie, then you'll lynch me (a pro-town role), they kill another townie/islamist, and the town is royally screwed.

There is NO reason to leave us BOTH alive. Kill one of us. I recommend him, because his playing this game doesn't fit, in the least, the role he's claiming. Especially the person he supposedly checked on.

[Nai]

It'll be interesting to see exactly how the final commie plays, though I don't have much doubt about tonights NK. On the very low chance I end up alive tomorrow, I'll see who I can clear.

[Nai]

I can't believe he's trying this...

[Nai]

Alas, I am dead. Go town.

[Nai]

We might have had a chance, methinks, if I didn't have to claim so early.