Mini 392: Jungle Republic - Game over!

[Zindaras]

Wow, this was a quick night.

I'm doing some design for a game right now, I'll post some opinions afterwards.

[Zindaras]

Okay, I reread the game, and a couple of things caught my eye:

-TSQ. He defended SL throughout most of the day, then suddenly, out of the blue, hammered him.
-germy. He added little content throughout the day and put SL on Lynch-1.
-Friday-13th. She was the first to vote SL and never added a lot afterward.
-Lucresia. Was very insistent on lynching SL.

I'm not entirely sure I like the way LyingBrian has been playing either. I'll go ahead and

FoS: germy, Lucresia Friday-13th

and

Vote: TSQ

until he comes up with a good explanation for hammering ShadowLurker.

[Zindaras]

- Post #157-158
@Zindaras

well in those 2 short posts you've managed to become more helpful than your counterpart...

I'm awesome, I know.

what i don't like about your post is

I'm not entirely sure I like the way LyingBrian has been playing either.

seems to me like you're riding everyone else's coat tails w/ this statement... interesting how you didn't give any reasons of your own why you don't like my play...

While I like the way you generally respond to a lot, I disagree very much with your WIFOM argument. The way SL was lynched seems quite odd to me, and I'm getting the impression that that argument was the main one.

[Zindaras]

You can vote me, but I simpy hammered shadowlurker because he must be quicklynched at all times. It's a nul tell for me, since I would do it as both scum and town.

I might be scum, yes, but voting off of something like that makes no sense for two reasons:

1) I've already explained how I would do it both town and scum, but if you don't buy that
2) It is much less likely a scum would do that then town, because scum wants to avoid that kind of pressure. Come on now, I'm an experienced player; do you really think I'd have 'opportunistic voting' as one of my scum tells?

Could you point to earlier games where you've done the same?

[Zindaras]

I really don't know anything about that. Is there anyone else alive in the game who knows this better?

[Zindaras]

Hmmkay.

So what are your opinions on all the players in the game right now? I'd like a nice lil' list.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP:

Unvote

until further notice, no desire to see a speedlynch.

[Zindaras]

What I meant was a list with opinions on every living player left remaining. Not sure why Rasta was so horribly scummy, though.

[Zindaras]

Read this game, if you're so convinced Rasta was scummy. It seems to me to be her normal play.

[Zindaras]

that's the nice thing about opinions, i don't need you to agree w/ mine, for me to be right

You weren't right about ShadowLurker.

... i may have a slight misunderstanding of 'WIFOM', but my points are still valid... i don't think you should throw them out, b/c my classification may be incorrect...

Your argument against ShadowLurker was that he was using WIFOM to prove his townieness, when he himself stated it wasn't a scumtell or a towntell. As said in Post 130:

It makes the implication that it is not a legit scumtell, not that I am town.

if you think that the WIFOM was the reason for my vote, then you may need to do a re-read... i was voting for ShadowLurker b/c he was suspicious... the way he reacted to the WIFOM, only made him seem more suspicious, thus i never felt a need to remove my vote...

I see no other reason in Post 120, the post where you actually vote him. You FoSed him before for "not contributing", but that's all.

[Zindaras]

Call it a bandwagon, if you like, but I provided my reasoning for lynching Shadowlurker in the post in which I made my vote.

He was wrong, using a "scum wouldn't do that" defense, and insisting that was good enough.

He was town, wasn't he? That kinda makes him right. ShadowLurker was right. The WIFOM argument used against him was wrong. It wasn't a scumtell, but it wasn't a towntell either. That's what he said over and over, yet people ignored that point.

Third, sprontalic says next to nothing about the "bandwagon" the whole time except "I don't mind Shadowlurker's playstyle," then constructs a looooong post at lynch-minus-one, coming to Shadowlurker's defense?

A good strategy, if you're scum: come to a townie's defense when it won't matter, thereby looking like you are a townie yourself. When, in fact, you're not.

SL wasn't lynched at that point, so yes, it did matter. Besides, with two scumgroups in the game, he'd have to have guessed that SL was town.

This TSQ argument is quite comparable to the argument that got SL lynched yesterday.

The fact that TSQ did what he always does cannot be used against him

or

for him. It's best to simply ignore it and keep an eye on him. That's what I'll be doing, which is why I asked him for his opinions.

germy and LyingBrian, I want from you nice little lists with opinions on every player in the game.

[Zindaras]

2)fine, i'll admit i might be wrong about the definition of WIFOM (i've already done this), but at least 2 other people agree w/ my point (just b/c you do something suspicious & say you do it as both town & scum, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a vote)

Yeah. At least 2 other people are also scum.

- Post #176

I see no other reason in Post 120, the post where you actually vote him.

the problem is how he normally plays is suspicious

That is no reason to vote him.

i also thought ShadowLurker was suspicious in the early parts of the game...

Which is worthy of a lynch?

- Post #187

He was town, wasn't he? That kinda makes him right. ShadowLurker was right.

no, it makes him town, unfortunately... like i said before, i used to employ the same meta-game strategy, until someone else pointed out the fallacy of that strategy... see above

Have you ever seen Fritzler or Coron play? Even I've done it.

i like to receive rather than give... why me & germy, and why should i?

You were the one who was driving the SL bus, and germy put him at Lynch-1. I've already asked it of the eventual hammerer.

i don't like players making demands... probably nothing of it, it just grates against my rebellious personality

Mafia's a game you play together, where you work for a mutual goal. I miss that here.

[Zindaras]

Pressure Vote: germy

Let's see how long it takes before he shows up.

Lots of other people need to post more, too.

[Zindaras]

playing suspiciously is absolutely a reason to vote anybody, and my vote wasn't intended to lynch ShadowLurker is was meant to pressure him...

That's not what you said in Post 120. Pressure votes are usually done in the format I put mine. Also, pressure votes are usually taken off before the guy's lynched.

he was lynched by Thestatusquo...

How is this a point in your favour? He wasn't lynched by TSQ. TSQ hammered him. Without the other 6 votes on him, SL wouldn't have been lynched.

doesn't make it good play... and doesn't mean i shouldn't vote for them or you...

You'll consistently be wrong in your play, in that case.

maybe i missed them, but i haven't seen germy or Thestatusquo's lists...

You have. You've even addressed TSQ's (Post 168-170). Germy hasn't posted his yet, but he hasn't posted either.

the second quote sounds like a manipulation to get me to do what you want... sorry, but i'll pass...

*shrugs*

I will be voting you if you don't tell us who you think is suspicious and who you think is town, in a nice list. There's absolutely no reason not to if you're town, so it's a very suspicious play.

i guess Nai is my scum partner since he agrees w/ my point, right?

Stop putting words in my mouth.

No, I don't think Nai's your scumbuddy, right now. I think germy is. Nai could be scum (though I don't suspect him at the moment), but from the other side.

[Zindaras]

Yo. It's been two days, the weekend, since I posted. Hardly requiring a "pressure vote" :roll" Geez.

How could I have known you were away for the weekend. I want quick responses to my posts, to prevent scum from putting off responding until they make up a better argument.

Unvote

.

The fact that Shadowlurker was town does not make him right. He not only used faulty reasoning, but defended it.

So, even though he was town, he was totally wrong and you were totally right?

Simply put: particular strategies exist that are more beneficial to scum than for townies. Lurking is a good example. A lurking player does not necessitate they are scum; lurking is neither a towntell or a scumtell. However, we (players as a whole) tend to pressure vote and even sometime lynch lurkers. The idea is that players that use such strategies (as Shadowlurker did by twisting a WIFOM argument) should be lynched because such a strategy is more beneficial to scum using it.

His strategy was not more beneficial to scum. He made sure he was in the spotlights, and that usually isn't a good place for scum to be.

I'm not going to provide my thoughts on every player in the game. That's silly.

Not silly. Extremely useful. I've done it before, to great effect.

Zindaras: Making demands

Well, if you want to sit around and hope everyone posts without anything to make them, you're naive.

and claiming that bad logic is all right if made by a townie.

No. I'm claiming that bad logic is no reason to lynch a townie.

Vote: LyingBrian

I find his behaviour Day 1 scummy, and his insistence that SL deserved to be lynched even scummier. And I very, very much dislike the way he's been responding to my posts. He apparently doesn't want to give his opinions on other players because he's rebellious, which is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

[Zindaras]

friday-13th: for applying his logic to players selectively. Which partially implicates Nai.

wel can you explain this to me how i have done this.cause im not sure what you mean here.

Good to see you're at least reading the thread, even if you're not taking the trouble of actually adding something to the discussion. Who do you think is scum? Mind voting?

You say that you would hammer whether you were town or scum. Fine. It might or might not be a null-tell. It doesn't matter.

You are using metagame reasoning to defend yourself,

instead of reasoning based on this particular game.

It is far easier for scum to hide behind this veneer in order to excuse their scummy actions.

Then, you say if we don't believe you, than scum would never do something so obvious. Fine. It might or might not be a null-tell. It doesn't matter.

You are using WIFOM reasoning to defend yourself,

instead of reasoning based on this particular game.

It is far easier for scum to hide behind this veneer in order to excuse their scummy actions.

Your actions regarding the "hammer" have been only mildly suspicious. I understand other players questioning your actions.

But the fact you are relying on faulty reasoning to defend yourself is why I am voting for you.

This argument reminds me so much of the ShadowLurker argument it's not funny anymore. How do you expect Glork to defend himself when he does something extremely wacky Day One?

I play with a guy (MT_Gunn, for those of you who may be interested) who makes a point out of claiming Day One, every game. Most of the time, it's something wacky too. He's claimed scum, SK, pretty much everything. Following your logic, we should lynch him every game for acting scummy.

Chamber was abducted. Why?

I'm not sure on this either. I'd wager that the scum realized that most of the players, currently, are helping them rather than hurting them. They really had nothing to lose by killing him, since he couldn't be one of them, and he could be either of the other two groups. The fact that he was a lurker and wasn't helping them finish off the other two groups might play a part.

Actually, my guess was that the Commies thought he was the Seer. The Commies really can't afford losing even one of their number. I'd say the Seer is their prime target.

[Zindaras]

I have some universal scum tells I use personally, actually. Of course, I don't make them public, because that'd be pretty silly. They're just things that make me go reread a thread for a specific player's posts. They're pretty damn effective, too.

By the way, TSQ, your guilty scumtell on Rasta seemed pretty universal...

[Zindaras]

Meh, go ahead. I don't think you'll get a lot from it, though. I make a point of being unreadable.

I want the people who aren't voting right now (Cadre, KingPin, Lucresia, Friday-13th) to vote/contribute.

Also, why aren't you voting, TSQ? Just wondering here...

[Zindaras]

I think the whole deal with Rasta is the biggest thing we have yet.

I don't understand this line at all.

I don't like the amount of players who aren't voting, and I'd like to see a reduction in their numbers.

[Zindaras]

You may have a point there, but you'd think they'd go after someone a little more active. I'd be more afraid of an active member going against the flow that I want than I would an unactive player that just helps me by not voting.

Well, chamber's always an odd player. We don't know who the Commies are, so we don't know who was going against them. Perhaps that's one of the reasons they picked chamber: it gives us absolutely zero information to go on.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Getting Seer tells from chamber is also an option for why they killed chamber.

[Zindaras]

Did you even bother to read the link I gave you? Very much comparable play from Rasta, as town.

[Zindaras]

So I understand, TSQ, you 'hammered' SL because it must be done. That is the only reason? That is your only defense? Can you not see why that is scummy, when defended in that way? If you cannot, please think about it like this. If I did that, would you think that I were scummy? Of course you would. Or I hope you would. If anyone does this it is scummy.

Vote: TSQ

You say that you would hammer whether you were town or scum. Fine. It might or might not be a null-tell. It doesn't matter.

You are using metagame reasoning to defend yourself,

instead of reasoning based on this particular game.

It is far easier for scum to hide behind this veneer in order to excuse their scummy actions.

Then, you say if we don't believe you, than scum would never do something so obvious. Fine. It might or might not be a null-tell. It doesn't matter.

You are using WIFOM reasoning to defend yourself,

instead of reasoning based on this particular game.

It is far easier for scum to hide behind this veneer in order to excuse their scummy actions.

Your actions regarding the "hammer" have been only mildly suspicious. I understand other players questioning your actions.

But the fact you are relying on faulty reasoning to defend yourself is why I am voting for you.

This argument reminds me so much of the ShadowLurker argument it's not funny anymore. How do you expect Glork to defend himself when he does something extremely wacky Day One?

I play with a guy (MT_Gunn, for those of you who may be interested) who makes a point out of claiming Day One, every game. Most of the time, it's something wacky too. He's claimed scum, SK, pretty much everything. Following your logic, we should lynch him every game for acting scummy.

I'd like you to respond to this, KingPin. I think quite a few posts against a TSQ lynch have been raised, yet you are insisting he is the correct play.

[Zindaras]

>snip<

Which scumgroup do you think TSQ belongs to? Who do you think are/is his scumbuddy(s)? Is the hammer the only thing you're voting him for or do you think his Day 1 posts are scummy as well?

With 10 players left, we know that 5 are town and 5 are scum. Which means a full half of us are lying.

The Islamists/Mafia just need to

survive

. They don't want to be suspicious and be lynched. They don't want to look important and be nightkilled. They don't care who is lynched as long as it is not one of them.

The Communists/Werewolves are a traditaional mafia team. They want everyone else lynched without implicating themselves.

My thoughts on possible scum. These thoughts are

extremely

vague, but I think discussing possible connections and similarities between players can help us unearth the actual scum.

Islamists: friday-13th, Cadre, Lucresia. I believe that these three have been the ones "laying low" the most. Not necessarily in terms of postcount, but also in terms of contributions and actions.

Communists: sprontalic, Thestatusquo. sprontalic was distancing from Thestatusquo with his vote, but both are claiming that Shadowlurker was using good logic, and should apply it to Thestatusquo's case.

Again, malleable. But I wanted to get my thoughts out and see what other people thought about behavior and connections.

This makes me happier. This is pretty much what I wanted from LyingBrian.

[Zindaras]

sorry i don't format my pressure votes the same way you do, and i couldn't remove my vote b/c by the time i got home from work, ShadowLurker was already lynched... check my post times...

Where in this thread did you state it was a Pressure Vote?

Fine by me... if you think not giving in to 1 player's demands is a scum tell, go right ahead... i must've missed your list, though...

My other suspicions are quite clear *points to Post 158*.

And, yes, I do think it's quite scummy not to want your opinions to be clear.

you say a couple reasons you're voting for me is b/c you don't like the way i'm replying to your posts, and i won't make your list... can't do anything about my responses... that's a silly reason to state for voting someone...

Hell no. One's gut is one of the biggest weapons a player has.

as far as the list is concerned, how do i know that you are not scum, trying to get an even bigger advantage? you could very easily use my list to make me look scummier, or use it to attack someone else i find scummy... honestly, i think the whole demand of "make me a list" is scummy...

FOS: Zindaras

Two ways of logic (both under the assumption we lynch you, which I hope):

-If you're town, we lynch you, but we know your opinions. We can use the opinions of a confirmed town player for our lynch tomorrow.

-If you're scum, we lynch you, we know your opinions. We can use them to catch other scum tomorrow.

If you die overnight, we also get the advantages presented here.

[Zindaras]

Unvote

Quite the reveal (and surprise).

I must take another look at this thread.

[Zindaras]

I think he's lying scum, trying to get himself out of a lynch, and trying to get the real President to claim so that his scum group can get him. It's interesting that he didn't say anything about having investigated anyone.

He kinda did...

last night i investigated Cadre/Yosarian2, and i was told he was not a Communist/Werewolf which means he's either a Republican/Townie or Islamist/Mafia...

[Zindaras]

This is a funny situation where it indeed may be better for the cop not to counterclaim (unless he's caught the other commie, obviously).

[Zindaras]

i didn't, unfortunately...

Exactly. So why should I believe you when you say it's a pressure vote, when you never said so, especially when you're saying stuff like this:

no, i would like to lynch you b/c you're acting suspiciously, and doing absolutely nothing to make your case any stronger, in fact, you're just adding fuel to the fire..

well i think we're getting somewhere... the FACT that you are acting suspicious does not make you town or scum, per se, but the ACTION of acting suspicious makes us think you are scum (regardless of whether or not you do this every game)

and using Thestatusquo's argument i always keep my suspicions to myself as town and scum, so that's not a scumtell

There is a difference between what TSQ did and what you're doing. You're actively working against scumhunting.

i disagree w/ your "only scum don't want their opinions known" statement,

The reasoning for this being?

but if the other 4 players on my bandwagon insist i make a list to keep myself from being lynched, i'll do so, i'm not an idiot... i just don't like giving into the demands of 1 player, it gives good players like PookyTheMagicalBear too much material to manipulate the majority's opinion of me...

And not doing it makes people think ou're scum. This post is quite ridiculous. I'd better not post at all anymore, so good players don't manipulate what I'm saying.

i might agree one's intuition is the biggest weapon they have, but it's very hard to convince other players that that is a good reason to vote for another player... look at Cadre on D1

So, though it's one of the biggest weapons you have, it's a silly reason for voting someone?

not too much of a surprise if you have played w/ me before... i am always agressive & out-spoken, and have gotten lynched for it many a time... obviously i need to work on my arguing skills, but that's what i like about this forum...

It was a surprise to me that you were the Seer. Personally, I got more Seer vibes from others (not saying who, obviously, because that'd be stupid if you were lying).

- Post #258, 260
great reasoning to use as scum to try to get your only advantage lynched... don't worry, i'll investigate you tonight, Nai, so we can semi-clear you or not...

I think this part is scummy.

You're dead, LyingBrian. You're not going to get any investigations. You're going to die, whether it's today, tonight, or tomorrow.

[Zindaras]

Pressure Vote: friday-13th

I think both friday and Lucresia should post before a hammah is cast.

I don't know about Brian anymore. It is a claim, but as I said, no Seer-vibes from him. Come to think of it, his investigation doesn't make any sense at all. Why, of all people, Cadre?

I think I'll vote Brian (yay for stream of consciousness posts), but I want friday and Lucresia to post first.

[Zindaras]

You don't think it's a good strategy for the real Seer not to counterclaim?

I need to rethink this game. This Seer claim confuses me.

Yos has a point about us having to lynch scum today. Germy's kinda pinged my dar over the course of the game.

I need to stop posting at late times where I'm easily influenced because of my sleepdrunk state.

[Zindaras]

Why would you assume he's the Seer? Has he played like a cop? I've never known a cop to attract a lot of attention to himself, because he doesn't want the scum to go after him. LyingBrian has been an outright player in this game, and has made a lot of noise and waves. That doesn't sound like a cop to me. Especially the fact that he seemed suspicious of you yesterday, but then and investigated a very low key player. That doesn't sound very cop-like to me.

You've obviously never played with me as Cop.

I totally buy the Cop claim. I should trust my gut more often.

Forgot to mention

unvote nai

Is anyone else in favor of leaving them both alive till one shows up dead, then we can be sure the one we're lynching is scum, and it will give disinsentive to kill the real one? I'm seriously considering throwing my vote back to germy.

Is there really any doubt about which one is scum?

I absolutely disagree with this. If he's scum and ends up getting killed he could make a fake list to throw us off that actually has mafia on it...Then again like almost any argument...it could go either way. He could actually have posted about townies in hopes of killing them off and then we'd have a clear list. As either thing could happen...I wouldnt say this is a great basis to go on.

The list makes it difficult for the Mafiate to maneuver. They have to give their opinions on all players, which means they have to say stuff about people they may have wanted to get lynched later. Fake lists and stuff are easily analyzed.

I think if you have your opinions COMPLETELY in the open...in the form of a list of everyone that is..that mafia members will realize that their playing still is either working or not working and will make appropraite changes on how they conduct themselves.

If someone changes their behaviour, I'd definitely look out for them.

(bolded important)There's no reason for a townie to claim a role that isnt there's? Even to protect the seer? Perhaps....and this is a thought that again is only thought because its so hard to base anything off of anything in this game..PERHAPS, Lyingbrian was doing just that..lying. Maybe he is a townie that claimed seer so that he doesnt get lynched tonight and instead the REAL seer is able to make 1 more investigation before he is killed. JUST a possibility..but DEFINITELY something I am considering. Any thoughts on this?

And then we arrive at a few questions:
1) Do you really think LyingBrian is town?
2) Do you really think it's town behaviour to claim Cop, in a game without docs?
3) Do you really think lying is town behaviour?

I hope this all made sense and will try to keep up with this game no matter how sick I feel

*thumbs up*

Personally, I have absolutely zero doubt that Nai is the Seer and LyingBrian's a commie. Not only is his claim more believable, I actually had Nai tagged as Seer.

I don't think there's any good logic behind leaving scum alive, so

Unvote, Vote: LyingBrian

[Zindaras]

I don't mind a hammer, personally.

[Zindaras]

Vote: germy

I thought he was Commie together with LB yesterday, and nothing has happened that changed my opinion.

[Zindaras]

After someone claims and before someone counterclaims, there are only two types of people who should be pushing heavily (and voting falls under that) for a lynch: The real Seer, and his scumbuddie(s), because they're the only ones who know 100% sure that he's lying.

Your entire defense on that point is based on WIFOM. "Scum wouldn't vote their own scumbuddy!"

Face it. LyingBrian wasn't going to get lynched as long as there was no counterclaim. Your move was not at all negative for the scumgroup, if you're scum, and that's what I look at in these kind of arguments. You were simply trying to distance yourself from LyingBrian, and the manner in which you did that set off my scum alarm.

This, added to my earlier suspicion of you, is enough for me to vote you.

[Zindaras]

No.

I am not using that as a defense. I asked how those voting for me are reconciling it.

So it isn't even a defense.

My "defense" is the reasoning that I gave for placing a vote on LyingBrian at the time.

Don't get this.

My point is that

I do not believe this is true

. LyingBrian's claim did not ring true, in the first place. (Again, for reasons I already outlined)

No, it did indeed not ring true. But a townie would've thought twice before pouncing onto it. Point in case: the people who unvoted, but retained their feelings regarding Brian and wanted to get some more information before actually lynching him.

His play and his defense was inconsistent with being the Seer. Townies should not blindly believe every claim that is made unless it is counterclaimed. We

need

to analyze such claims on their own basis, and when they don't make sense we should not trust them. I didn't trust LyingBrian's claim, and I voted him for it.

There is a difference between not blindly believing a claim and wanting a lynch.

The fact that you put him at Lynch-1 after his claim makes me think the last, for you, and I see that as scummy behaviour. I think a townie would've waited to see more arguments.

However, Zindaras, thank you for responding fully and politely. I appreciate the fact that you have been answering questions with your thoughts well explained.

You're welcome. I always enjoy a nice clean argument.

[Zindaras]

My guess is that at least one of the lurkers (counting Lucresia and friday as lurkers here) are Islamists. I'd probably take a look at those before any others.

And I like how Yos basically said exactly the same thing as I did.

[Zindaras]

You don't think it's a good strategy for the real Seer not to counterclaim?

I don't understand why you felt it was a good reason for the seer to counterclaim. If Lyingbrian was basically going to get lynched anyways...why would we want to out our seer? I don't find this town - like at all.

You're misunderstanding me, though that may be the double negative.

I thought that not counterclaiming was the correct strategy. My question here to Yos was "Don't you think it's a good strategy for the real seer not to counterclaim?" which is the same as "Do you think it's a good strategy for the seer to counterclaim."

Look at Post 261 and Post 270. I didn't want to out the seer.

2) Do you really think it's town behaviour to claim Cop, in a game without docs?

It seems you might be contradicting yourself? I mean you wanted the cop to counterclaim without a doctor, yet you dont think its town behavior to claim cop? :/ please explain?

I didn't want the Cop to counterclaim. You're not reading this correctly.

The point here was that you suggested that LyingBrian was a normal Republican who claimed President. I asked you if you thought that was something a Republican would do.

[Zindaras]

Personally, I'm pretty damn sure that germy is scum. What kind of scum? Why should I care? They all need to die.

[Zindaras]

Well, that's lynch, I guess.

Bye, germy. It was nice playing with you.

[Zindaras]

Quite surprising, I really thought he was the last Commie.

Personally, if I have to pick one Islamist, I'd say Norinel. Friday flew under the radar very very much.

Yos/TSQ/sprontalic are other options for Islamists, in my opinion.

[Zindaras]

Ahhh, that figures.

I thought it was twilight, not actually night.

[Zindaras]

So I give you the most town vibes and you FoS me?

That's odd.

I was no sheep yesterday. I made my case against germy. I stated it quite clearly.

[Zindaras]

Personally, I hadn't even thought about the possibility of Commies doing a no hit...

I also disagree with you a bit. I don't think Islamists will play like regular townies. In my experience, Cultists (and your comparison of this to a Cult is quite correct) tend to lay low a lot more than plain ol' townies. Which is also why I suspect chamber got hit Night 1.

Therefore I'm looking at those guys, mainly.

[Zindaras]

So you think we ought to be going after lurkers (Oh boy...) please be more explicit about your suspicions.

I think I said this somewhere, but I think

Lucresia

sprontalic/Norinel/Yos is the most likely scumgroup.

[Zindaras]

Actually, scratch that list. I need to do a re-read to get a feeling for this game.

The main thing that caught me on the read was Zindaras. He was the second to vote for LyingBrian after Nai's second or third comment his direction, which'd be a good Islamist play if he caught the seer vibes from Nai as an easy anti-Communist direction to lead the town. (And it's easiest for the Islamists to spot the seer and Communists since they can already rule two more people out than any townie can)

It would also be a good town play. Besides, this is quite ridiculous. The discussion before that vote clearly led up to it. I voted for these reasons:

I find his behaviour Day 1 scummy, and his insistence that SL deserved to be lynched even scummier. And I very, very much dislike the way he's been responding to my posts. He apparently doesn't want to give his opinions on other players because he's rebellious, which is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Nai.

What I found more interesting afterwards were his repeated calls for people to vote. Day 2, the town was already only 50% pro-town, and every vote even then could be critical.

I think the whole deal with Rasta is the biggest thing we have yet.

I don't understand this line at all.

I don't like the amount of players who aren't voting, and I'd like to see a reduction in their numbers.

Pressure Vote: friday-13th

I think both friday and Lucresia should post before a hammah is cast.

I don't know about Brian anymore. It is a claim, but as I said, no Seer-vibes from him. Come to think of it, his investigation doesn't make any sense at all. Why, of all people, Cadre?

I think I'll vote Brian (yay for stream of consciousness posts), but I want friday and Lucresia to post first.

I don't mind a hammer, personally.

Those are the relevant quotes (assuming I didn't miss any). The last one was in response to TSQ asking if we minded if he hammered.

Not just that. Not only is your repeated point horribly incorrect, one of the quotes is trying to get people to post. As for "trying to pressure people into voting", that is not at all a bad thing. If there's something the Islamists want to do, it's lie low and let the town and the commies duke it out. Not only that, but if townies don't use their votes, it only gives the scum more power.

[Zindaras]

My continuing sickness is only getting more worse..as I was not at work tuesday, wed, or thursday.

I hope you get better soon.

I think TSQ is the last commie and no, we shouldnt lynch him today.

I agree with this statement.

We have no choice but to lynch an islamist. I think the people on Germy's wagon were suspicious. Play should have been more cautious.

I disagree with this. I honestly felt germy was scum, and I think I gave enough reasoning for my vote. If anyone, we should be looking at the bandwagoners.

In the meantime please note that I do hear the people stating they had legitimate reasons for voting Germy. Although I don't necessarily believe it right now, I will go through and take the time to reread posts concerning this.

Well, that answers that.

[Zindaras]

I'll concede "repeated"; error in my notes from the long read. Still, pressuring people to vote is a bad thing in a situation where every vote can matter a whole lot. The obvious case is the classic lynch or lose, where we are now, but since the town hasn't had a majority since the start of Day 2, there's no reason not to be cautious. And once a scum group's half of the votes required to lynch (As the Islamists have been since Day 2), misplaced townie votes give the scum more power.

Meh, this is just where you and I disagree. I think it's better when people vote. After all, that's the point of the game. Of course, there are situations where it's better not to (you'll note, for example, that I'm not clamouring for votes in the situation we find ourselves in now), but in the situation we were in at that time, voting was an inherently good thing.

Well I don't doubt that one or two would've piled on as an attempt to bandwagon, but if that's the case it's most likely Zind since he's the last to pile on. I can't imagine the first two being a bandwagoning attempt and I've basically said from day 1 that I was suspicious of germy which was only confirmed by lyingbrian being scum.

Now now now.

If there was any bandwagoning going on, it was you doing it. I explained my vote thoroughly, even to germy's satisfaction, while the point you made when you voted was quickly rebuttaled, after which you came with the lame, unarguable "I thought you were LyingBrian's scumpal all along."

FoS: sprontalic

I most definitely did not bandwagon, and I find your statement that I did quite scummy.

[Zindaras]

I smell a hypocrite.

Okay, I reread the game, and a couple of things caught my eye:

-TSQ. He defended SL throughout most of the day, then suddenly, out of the blue, hammered him.
-germy. He added little content throughout the day and put SL on Lynch-1.
-Friday-13th. She was the first to vote SL and never added a lot afterward.
-Lucresia. Was very insistent on lynching SL.

I'm not entirely sure I like the way LyingBrian has been playing either. I'll go ahead and

FoS: germy, Lucresia Friday-13th

and

Vote: TSQ

until he comes up with a good explanation for hammering ShadowLurker.

germy and LyingBrian, I want from you nice little lists with opinions on every player in the game.

You're saying that you're clean from bandwagoning because you posted suspicions before, but you completely fail to read my earlier posts (I argued quite a bit with germy Day 2). I've been on germy's behind for a long time (in fact, the first quote here was my first content in the thread). That's why I FoSed you.

[Zindaras]

I'm not hypocritical, I'm simply rebutting your arguement.

In this, rebutting your

own

argument.

Ergo, hypocritical because you're attacking me while I have an obviously similar defense to yours, which you would've seen if you'd have bothered to read the thread...

Or you just wanted to ignore it.

I never claimed that you didn't give a reasoning, I just said that you would be the most likely becuase you were the last to jump on.

So, then, how are you cleared of bandwagoning? Because you weren't the last one to jump on but the next-to-last? Oh, my, now that's irrefutable proof that you didn't bandwagon.

You say I'm most likely the bandwagoner because I was the last one to jump on, and you're clearing yourself because you have a defense against not bandwagoning. That's hypocritical.

Besides you're FoSing me because I'm saying

if

anyone was bandwagoning it's most likely you.

If

is the crucial word there because I was against looking specficially at the bandwagon against germy as the means to finding the islamists since I don't believe it would mean anything. Thank you though since you've basically proven my point about why it's redundant to say that those on the bandwagon are necessarily scum.

Well I don't doubt that one or two would've piled on as an attempt to bandwagon, but if that's the case it's most likely Zind since he's the last to pile on. I can't imagine the first two being a bandwagoning attempt and I've basically said from day 1 that I was suspicious of germy which was only confirmed by lyingbrian being scum.

Read it again.

No doubt

. You are definitely saying someone bandwagoned here, and you are definitely pointing the finger at me, specifically.

Still your reaction to my vague accusation (which I didn't even really agree with, but was merely expanding discussion)

Ooooh, so now you didn't even agree with it, now that I've rebutted it.

is very interesting and makes me believe that you may be scummier than you've make yourself look before.

So I've rebutted one of your arguments, so you pull something else from thin air.

I can definitely see a sprontalic/Norinel/X Islamist group right now.

[Zindaras]

No I didn't rebut my own argument, I rebutted yours. This is what you said (with key phrases bolded)

The argument you used against me could, and should, be used against you, too.

Hence my argument is that you were the last to vote, hence most probable to bandwagoning.

Since when is the fourth vote the most probable bandwagoning vote? I personally use 2-5.

And bandwagon isn't a keyword since it's used in the sense of joining the wagon, not joining without a reason (everyone on that bandwagon had a reason, and I'm pretty sure I acknowledged that on the last page).

Oh great, now I'm scum because I didn't get the opportunity to vote germy before that post. It was, after all, my first post since the restart.

I never said I didn't bandwagon. I agree that to a neutral observer I'd be as guilty as you. Thing is I've read the little role PM from Kelly Chen which means I know what role I have. Unless I'm trying to make myself lose why would I name myself?

So you, who did something, are town, according to yourself, and you're attacking me for exactly the same thing.

Yup. Definitely a hypocrite.

1) You over defended when I was merely making the point that if someone had been bandwagoning germy (which I never agreed with, it was simply to explore Norinel's idea) it would most likely have been you. I didn't FOS you, I merely named you. Notice how the only reason against you was that you were the last the vote, which is why and only why I named you. All of a sudden you pull out the overdefensive "I had a reason for that vote, but you didn't therefore you're scummier than me in that regard". I'll admit though that my post was rather misleading with the "don't doubt" bit.

Cry me a river. I get aggressive a lot. That's what I'm known for. And moreso as town than as scum. Town can afford to be aggressive. Scum not. And if you don't agree with something, then you should make that clear right from the start. Posting arguments you don't agree with yourself is a scummy action.

2) You turn my rebuttal back on me with a red herring. I was never being hypocritical by showing how I'd always been against germy then ignoring the fact that you had too. The burden of proof is not whether you had any ongoing reason against germy, it was simply that you were the last on the wagon. Now this was made very clearly in my post, yet you somehow managed to bend the argument this way. It seems to me like an attempt at retaliating against me by trying to implicate me as scum.

You say you're not bandwagoning because you had already said you thought he was scum before. Yet, you say I was the most likely bandwagoneer, even though I did the same. Ergo, hypocrite.

3) You turned someone small and insignificant to something unnecessarily large. Point is I made a passing comment that was used to raise discussion and explore ideas. Basically I was saying "I don't agree with this idea, but if I had to look into this idea, I would think this". Somehow you misread it as "I agree with this idea, hence I strongly agree with this",

That's not what it looked like from here.

which is clearly an over-reation and overdefensiveness at work.

And that is scummy how?

Have fun with the fireworks, by the way,

[Zindaras]

Opinion on sprontalic-me debate? You seem to be neutral on the matter, but I want it black on white.

[Zindaras]

Well, you might not have been "sold" on him, but you didn't say anything against the bandwagon either before the day ended yesterday.

Exactly. I'm not liking Norinel right now. Not one of his posts since he's arrived in the game has had me thinking town.

I suggest we all FoS who we would like to vote right now, because voting would be silly, but we do need to get somewhere. I'd like to

FoS: Norinel

.

For the rest, I'm not really sold on anyone's alignment. I think TSQ's town and sprontalic is probably not a Communist.

[Zindaras]

Yos, I direct you to this post:

I suggest we all FoS who we would like to vote right now, because voting would be silly, but we do need to get somewhere. I'd like to

FoS: Norinel

.

Answer plzkthxbai.

[Zindaras]

Let me go over it again:

The main thing that caught me on the read was Zindaras. He was the second to vote for LyingBrian after Nai's second or third comment his direction, which'd be a good Islamist play if he caught the seer vibes from Nai as an easy anti-Communist direction to lead the town. (And it's easiest for the Islamists to spot the seer and Communists since they can already rule two more people out than any townie can)

This is ridiculous. What you're basically implying is that I decided, Page 7/8 (where my argument with LyingBrian started), that Nai was the President and, thus, start the argument with LyingBrian which eventually led to my vote Page 9.

If you wanted to say anything using this, it would be far more likely that I was a Communist, because I'd know LyingBrian's alignment in that case. Instead, you decide I'm Islamist.

Also I don't think TSQ ever led the charge towards germy's lynch. In fact no one did, it was mutually agreed upon.

But it looks like the kind of mutual agreement that's a pile-on influenced by scum- maybe a townie or two had it against germy going into the day, but there had to be at least one scum in that first run of votes, most likely more. (Well, if you're a townie other than Y2, TSQ, spront, or Zind, you know at least two of them are)

Focus on people on the bandwagon, ergo, people who weren't him. Scum includes Communist. What you're doing here is a broad statement, saying "1-3 of those people are scum" (which is, by the way, almost impossible not to be true, whatever random group of 4 people in this game you pick). No specifics, so you can go for whoever seems best later.

For example:

At least 1 of Norinel, Zindaras, Thestatusquo and KingPin is scum.

Look at my scumcatching powars!

I'll concede "repeated"; error in my notes from the long read. Still, pressuring people to vote is a bad thing in a situation where every vote can matter a whole lot. The obvious case is the classic lynch or lose, where we are now, but since the town hasn't had a majority since the start of Day 2, there's no reason not to be cautious. And once a scum group's half of the votes required to lynch (As the Islamists have been since Day 2), misplaced townie votes give the scum more power.

Paranoia regarding voting, thinks I'm scummy for putting pressure on lurkers (his predecessor, friday, was among those who I pressured to vote/contribute Day 2). Focuses on the downside of voting, wants to remain cautious. As I said when he made this post, this is

exactly

what the Islamists want to do (not have to vote and let the Commies and Townies kill each other of) and

exactly

why I have been pressuring people to post and have been forcing debates.

You're trying to force caution upon the town. You're not even trying to get people to post, no, caution is far more important. Let's all not vote anymore so we can't misplace our votes!

There's a sort of repetition of the obvious here, but I'm not sure what it means. Of course if we lynch Islamist today, we're not lynching Communist, and since we need to lynch Islamist today to win if we lynch at all, we can't lynch the last Communist.

There is no point to this post. It leaves all the interpretation up to the rest of the town and allows Norinel to keep a flexible opinion on KingPin, depending on what the rest of the town thinks of it.

Part of my point that started the whole spront-Zin thing was that we weren't all agreed germy was. Four people voted for him in their first post, but that's not everyone, and not a majority. (Coincidentally, it's exactly how many scum there are left, but I think there might've been one or two misled town among the germy-voters) I know I wasn't sold on germy, and I don't see anything that says KP and Lucresia (The other two not voting him) were approaching sold either. I'm growing more and more convinced that the Islamists are trying to get away with the germy lynch by pushing the "Of course he was an idiot" thing.

Again, focus on a broad group, focus on people that aren't him. If you weren't sold on germy, you should've said so in your first post. Instead, you merely stated his claim was redundant. You never said germy shouldn't be hammered, which would have been the logical thing to say there, looking at what you're saying here. Instead, you said nothing which could be interpreted as either for or against germy, again leaving room for change later.

Just by the numbers, I know there's at least one Islamist and two scum on the germy bandwagon. (Since there are only three townies and the Communist, and I know I'm a townie)

Redundant, as it requires the assumption that Norinel is town. Again, this is like picking a random group of 4 other people and saying one of them is Islamist.

If there were two or three Islamists, which I'd be inclined to think was the case, lynching randomly from the germy bandwagon is better than lynching randomly from the entire town.

Again, requires the assumption that there was more than one Islamist on the bandwagon, which

we do not know

. Again, focus on a broad group. Again, it's slyly leading us away from him.

And since the Islamists were just two lynches away from winning, if they could force the lynch on germy easily and write it off the next day by treating it like it was an obvious choice.

Or they could, y'know, just sit back and watch the show.

What about them, other than 360? As for yesterday, germy had self-voted before I had time to read everything. I wasn't going to cast or advocate for a lynching vote without the context.

You responded to something on the same page. You did not advocate

against

a hammer either. That is quite important. You said absolutely nothing yesterday, and now you're acting like you knew germy was town.

That'll also conveniently let the Islamists know which non-Islamists suspect others and which they need to push for the bandwagon.

So we shouldn't do anything, we should just sit here and wait for a deadline or something?

[Zindaras]

1. I don't advocate lynching randomly from the bandwagoners. I don't even

directly

advocate lynching from the bandwagoners today. What I've been trying to say that you've been twisting around is that we shouldn't give everyone on the germy bandwagon a free pass for doing so.

You have not stated anything particularly directed against anyone on the germy lynch. You're simply stating we should be looking there, but you're not going into any specifics. You're not trying to catch scum, you're trying to direct the town. You're saying "There's scum on the germy wagon!". Not who, not why. You leave that up to others.

2. The numbers in this game at the moment are weird, partially because of the town nonmajority since Day 2 (Which I'm surprised people don't anticipate more, given how often it happens in the classic 3 mafia + SK mini) and minority now. I throw around numbers to try to give an idea of the

absolute minimum

number of scum in certain groups, given certain perspectives, and try to reason that if a group did something suspicious, then there might be more scum than the absolute
minimum.

You're ignoring the first lynch here. Let's take a look at it.

Vote count

7 - Shadowlurker (friday-13th, Cadre, Lucresia, KingPin, LyingBrian, germy, Thestatusquo)

2 - Kingpin (Nai, Shadowlurker)
2 - LyingBrian (chamber, sprontalic)

not voting: Rastapopoulos

4 people proposing a SL lynch (TSQ hopping on because of a running gag) that are still alive (friday/you, Cadre/Yos, Lucresia, KingPin). The same logic that, according to you, applies to the germy lynch, applies to this lynch as well, yet you are completely ignoring it. In fact, the only thing you've done with Day 1 is LyingBrian's counting post.

You have completely ignored the ShadowLurker lynch, which would be a nice thing for you to do, if you're Islamist. Pull attention to the germy lynch, and lead the town to ignore the ShadowLurker lynch, one where you were on.

Or are you saying that ShadowLurker got rightfully lynched and it wasn't a scummy thing to do?

You're throwing out very lopsided numbers.

It was a possibility, especially given that, in retrospect Nai's post 155 has the kind of certainty that people can get cop-with-guilty-result from

1) Every cop with a guilty results acts differently.
2) One does not have to be a Cop to be that sure. I've pulled the same gig myself, as normal town, just to see who'll jump on it.

and the Islamists have the biggest advantage in picking up tells because they can rule out possibilities and gain something from supporting any certain-looking vote that doesn't involve them.

Completely wrong, again. The other Communist would've had the biggest advantage in picking up these tells, because he'd know LyingBrian was Commie. The Islamists have two unsurities, the Communist only one.

And the way things turned out is a pretty good deal for the Islamists, since they got a free lynch and nightkill that couldn't've hit any of them.

And I'm to blame or something? Because I masterfully played into Nai's coptell, got LyingBrian close to being lynched, then tricked Nai into counterclaiming, thus making an awesome play for the Islamists?

I wish I were that good.

I'll direct you, for example, to Post 270, where I said I'd be voting Brian. To the fact that I was asleep at the time Nai counterclaimed and had little influence on that.

Also, "go[ing] for whoever seems best later" can also mean trying to figure out which ones are most likely to be scum.

Y'know, that'd work better when you actually do that. I haven't seen you look at the 'wagon, at the arguments.

The rewards almost always outweigh the risks, but you've been asking people who aren't voting to vote in a nonmajority situation where the Islamists are most likely to understand the numbers and gain the most from exploting them. Why would the Islamists not want to vote? They know exactly who needs to be lynched for them to win.

Let me propose a hypothetical situation. You and I are both non-Islamist (note that this is not an implausible situation. Number-wise, there's a 50% chance that any non-Islamist player attacks any other non-Islamist player). What will the Islamists be doing?

Exactly, they're going to sit on their behinds and let us duke it out, then pick up the spoils.

I've been asking for contribution all game, for the same reason I gave to LyingBrian when he refused to make a list:

It forces scum to state opinions

. If there's something scum likes, it's flexibility. And voting takes away a lot of flexibility.

That's what they call an observation.

Observations are nothing without interpretations.

The redundant claim was also an observation. Again, I didn't form an opinion because

I hadn't read the thread yet

.

So the logical pro-town thing to do was to say that you didn't want to see germy hammered yet, but wait until you had reread the thread.

I didn't say anything because I hadn't decided yet, because I hadn't read the thread.

See above.

I didn't know germy was town. My point with the "not sold" comment was that not everyone agreed he was scum at the time, and it doesn't seem like a majority agreed he was scum.

"I know I wasn't sold on germy."

Looks to me like you thought germy was town.

I didn't say we shouldn't do it, just that it'd be convenient for the Islamists. (And, of course, I stated my suspicions right after the bit you quoted) And everyone picking the person they would vote for isn't the only way to progress in the endgame.

Then you should suggest your alternative, instead of bottling it up.

[Zindaras]

Norinel, Yosarian2

: I'd like to see lists from you, like the ones I asked from LyingBrian and germy.

Thestatusquo, Lucresia, KingPin

: I want to see more contribution from you.

sprontalic

(because you'd feel alone, unloved and ignored if I wouldn't mention you as well): Hi.

[Zindaras]

I'm just watching the sparks fly, and watching my reads get firmer for now, zin.

Reveal them?

[Zindaras]

List, Yos.

Every post I see from you that doesn't include the list is bringing you closer to a vote.

[Zindaras]

List, Yos.

Every post I see from you that doesn't include the list is bringing you closer to a vote.

No, Zind, I'm not going to make a list. I'd think you'd have figured that out by now.

I really don't think it's a good idea for me to make a list right now. If I list 3 people I think are scum, and I'm wrong about one or two of them of them, then that makes it much easier for the scum trick the town into voting for the wrong guy and causing a mislynch, and a game loss. I'm especally not going to make a list when there are several people who have yet to make much of a contrabution today, because then they'd be able to just jump on and say "Yeah, I was thinking X all along, good work Yosarian!" So, no, I'm not going to make a list of every single person in the game and what I think of them, at least not before we've heard some real content from the semi-lurkers.

Now, I'd hope you'd be smart enough not to put a vote on someone in a lynch or lose situation just because they're not going to go along with your plan, but whatever, do what ya gotta do.

Reread the argument between LyingBrian and me about this.

I think you're scum. Ergo, this is only good for the town. If someone jumps on another's opinions, he's going to look scummy (which would again be a victory for the lists).

[Zindaras]

What a worthless argument. Because, you see, I know I'm not scum, so I don't think it's for the good of the town. Duh.

But as not doing it is a scumtell, you get to look a lot scummier. Your opinions are very unclear at the moment, and I want them to become clearer.

And since when do you "think I'm scum"? You have not attacked me all game, and the only reason you've given suspect me is because I'm not willing to go along with your plan. So that line feels looks to me to be very much like it a random attack designed to increase suspicion on some random person who's not you.

The only other guy ever to have refused to make a list for me is Brian, in this game. He was scum.

Not really. Especally not if they're currently lurking and haven't said anything at all yet today, there's no way to tell if they're following my list or if they already thought that. Especally if they're making vauge comments like this.

Look at it like a mass claim. The scummiest go first, then the less scummy.

[Zindaras]

Not doing it is clearly not a scumtell unless you can refute my argument that not doing it is the correct move for me to make as a pro-town player.

It makes other people more certain about your alignment.

Most people have not made a list for you today, zind. I'm just the only person who gave a reason why.

You two are the only ones I've directly been asking. As I said, LyingBrian is the only one to have denied it before when I was asking it openly.

Well then, we need the lurkers to go first. Which is what I just said.

I'm seeing lots of agreeings on you being scummy, Yos.

And again, you're calling me scummy without giving any reason for it except that I'm not going along with your plan. So I'm scummy because I'm not going to post a list first, and I should post a list first because I'm scummy? That's a completly circular argument.

I think you're scummy because I'm getting the idea you may be following me on Norinel to either make you look better when he comes up Islamist, or to finish off the game. Because Norinel, LyingBrian and germy are the only ones you've posted anything rock-solid on.

I simply want to know more of your opinions, whether they're town, or scum, or whatever. I don't even need it in a bloody list, I just want you to elaborate on what you think of the others in this game, and I've found that lists work best in those situations.

[Zindaras]

Aw, jesus, who am I kidding? The others are just as guilty of it as you are.

*sighs*

I hate that in a game.

Now the waiting for people to weigh in starts. That's gonna take a while.

[Zindaras]

Or you could also say that since the moment I replaced into the game, I have always made absolutly clear who I was most suspicious of, explained why in great detail, and made clear statements of opinion on major points in the game. And I'm going to do that today; I might not make the full list you're looking for, but I will make my suspicions clear.

Fix that last with suspicion. I don't know how you think about anyone but Norinel, and I don't like that, Yos.

[Zindaras]

Yeah, I agree that everyone should post lists:

Thestatusquo

: I was pretty sure about his townness before today. I think the debate between LyingBrian and him was one between a Commie and a Townie. I guess he could be an Islamist, but I don't see it as very likely. The whole lurking thing isn't really helping his case though.

KingPin

: Solid lurker. I'm not particularly enamored with the way he's been playing, though he posted a nice post at today's beginning. My impression is that he's town.

Yosarian2

: I think he's Islamist. His opinions are very unclear, and so far this game, he's only pushed for one guy to be lynched.

Norinel

: He's still my first choice as Islamist. Friday was very lurkerish. The argument I had with him did not change my opinions regarding him.

sprontalic

: I had a nice lil' argument with him earlier this day. This argument pretty much convinced me of his town-ness.

Lucresia

: Solid lurker. Made a couple big posts, but seems to have felled by illness. I'd put her together with KingPin as third Islamist.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, who do you think is/are the most likely Communist?

Eh, I think I'll make a bit of a flip-flop and say that, if I had to pick a name, it'd be TSQ. This is one I'm not really sure about though. I'd personally expect Commies to be more active though. Then again, I would've expected everyone to be more active today...

[Zindaras]

You see, this is exactally why I didn't want to make a list. Zind attacks me just with a very stupid reason. He said " His opinions are very unclear, and so far this game, he's only pushed for one guy to be lynched ", which is completly untrue, as I pushed very strongly for two guys to be lynched so far this game and have had very clear and strong opinions every single day.

Only against Norinel, germy and Brian.

So

fos:kingpin

. I'd expect the scum to try to "pile on" to any misplaced suspicion they can find, and if either Zind or spontic is non-Islamist, I'd expect an islamist to try to start pushing the town in that direction, which he seems to be trying to do now.

So, what you're basically saying is "I believe that, due to the lists, I have caught Islamist scum in KingPin, but the lists are totally wrong and evil."

[Zindaras]

YARR!

Post more.

FoS: TSQ

[Zindaras]

Because of what I said last post,

Crap. You're scapegoating here. Your predecessor said nothing of the matter, and it's very easy to be right in retrospect. I also stated that I would probably be voting LyingBrian, unless he came up with a better explanation. I am not the one to be blamed for Nai being hasty and claiming.

because of their part in the germy-lynch,

More crap. You're ignoring all arguments here and randomly putting the blame on two people. Again, you're also ignoring the ShadowLurker lynch.

because of fairly pointless discussion on how Islamists would act

To finish off with the biggest piece of craplogic.

For one, it's not pointless. Know thy enemy.

For two, even if it would be pointless, it still leaves more content than pretty much anyone else in the game.

Narrow-minded attacks, ignorance of earlier events that give different evidence, broad statements, no specifics, no actual case.

[Zindaras]

Yes, it's very easy to be right in retrospect, but I was unaware that Nai really was the president at the time of reading. He made a number of posts, which clearly suggested he was the president. I know I would've known in that situation and I don't believe it slipped by you and Yosarian2.

I attacked LyingBrian all day. You want me to decide, then and there, to take a gamble and lynch Brian without giving him a chance to defend his actions? I didn't say the real President (if any) should counterclaim, I said I wanted some more time.

Reread my old games, CES. I'm far more hesitant as town.

I understand and to an extent agree with the germy-lynch. He was looking scummy. But I don't like how it went. You're not the only two to blame, but it is part of why I'm suspicious of the two of you.

We had input from all players. I argued with germy, even to his satisfaction.

The ShadowLurker-lynch was driven by 1. LyingBrian, 2. Jathan's use of profanity and 3. day 1 shenanigans. I don't think it's particularly relevant Today. I don't see why I should've mentioned it.

Every lynch is relevant. Especially ones that are impossible without scum being in them.

It is pointless, because we both know that how the Islamists are going to play is going to be dictated by that player's play style. I seriously doubt that the fact that they're Islamists rather than Commies or something is going to have a noticeable effect on their play. In essence, you're making generalizations that needlessly limit our pool of lynch targets.

Where have these statements limited my lynch pool? The two I've been mostly aiming my suspicions against today are both very active players.

And it is true that people play differently as Mafia, as Cop, as Doc, as Survivor. The Islamists are essentially Survivors, so you would expect them to play differently. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and yes, we shouldn't put too much faith in it, but in general, it is something noteworthy.

Pointless content only distracts us from the real thing: finding scum.

Not posting at all is far worse than that.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, I don't believe you didn't see Nai was the President. It was clearly there.

So I should simply jump at anyone else even claiming Cop? As I said before, Mafia is a game where there's no real time pressure. I opted to go to bed and review the game in a later, more awake, stage.

And Yosarian2 was already arguing a "don't lynch any claimed President" approach, so there was no need for you to agree with it or promote it.

This speaks of little knowledge of my way of playing. If I think something should be done, I will argue for it. Especially as one-man arguments never get far.

But I'm not germy and his satisfaction is hardly relevant to me. I feel the lynch just went too easy.

Obvobv, that's because the guy self-voted.

Even if you do hold that view, I was merely presenting my case against the two of you. There was no specific reason to mention it. If you think it speaks in your favour, you are free to mention it.

You should never ignore anything said by any other player in the thread. I've brought up arguments as these before.

Friday nor Lucresia goes free from the ShadowLurker lynch, and I like how both of you are ignoring it.

Even if you have not personally followed through on it, you've still advocated what I see as an anti-town policy.

Advocated? I have simply stated my opinion on the matter. If someone advocates lynching lurkers, for example, it's usually denoted by an inordinate eagerness to lynch them.

You're by far overstating the weight I was putting on my theories. I always throw out theories, in every game I play in, simply because I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking of them.

Islamists are not essentially Survivors, they are what they are. They might play differently, but the difference'll be very much dependent on the specific player. Looking for scum seems much more productive than looking for survivors or whatever you want to simplify their role too.

What have I been doing besides looking for scum? The Survivor thing has had minor implications for my eventual scumlist, yes, but no big ones.

[Zindaras]

So you're saying you did see it?

I said this before. If I had to have picked anyone for Cop at the time, it would've been Nai.

However, that doesn't mean that anyone else claiming Cop is to be instantly disbelieved. Again, I point out that I am far more hesitant as town. Again, I point out that I only wished to argue on with LyingBrian before deciding.

I think you're too smart to connect yourself so strongly to what I suspect to be your scum buddy, Yos. And I think you knew it would end badly. Letting Yos do the dirty work is then a far more rational approach for any Islamist.

So, if I don't, I'm Islamist, and if I do, I'm Islamist too?

It is a part of it, but not whole of it.

I feel I have argued more than enough with germy, ever since I got in the game. I've argued with him ever since I got into the game. Are you suggesting I've been setting up a germy lynch from the start?

I was explaining my two major suspicions, making my case. Why should I have to mention every previous event?

Every lynch is extremely relevant. I don't like the fact you're ignoring everything else to go after me.

For example, TSQ's and sprontie's votes for germy, the entirety of Day One.

As for the last part, my point is that it is worthless content, speculation that is not in any way helping the town.

For one, I disagree with the entire concept of it not helping town, as, in my opinion, pretty much all information is beneficial to the town.

For two, even if you assume it is worthless content, I have posted far more normal content. I'm not entirely sure about the specifics, but I think I've posted more content than anyone else in the thread.

[Zindaras]

I'm not buying your "I lack guts"-defense. A good townie would've argued for a LyingBrian-lynch.

Then there was only one good townie in the entire game.

I'm not a hasty person, Cessy. I prefer to argue before casting votes.

FALSE DILEMMA! There was, in fact, a third option(ie. the pro-town option), arguing for a LyingBrian-lynch, but yes, you are an Islamist.

Again, why are you only attacking me over this? I was hardly the only one guilty of this.

I play hastily, sometimes. It always backfires on me. So I prefer to think things through. Which I was going to do, if it weren't for the fact that Nai claimed while I was asleep.

Not specifically.

So then, how is it impossible to believe that I was not genuinely suspicious regarding germy from the start and the fact that he had votes on him already was not at all a factor in my play?

I'm trying to lynch scum. You're my best bet for scum and I'm trying to convince the town of that fact. Simple, aye?

You're using some mad ignoring skills.

For example, your only opinions are on Yos and me. You don't say anything else regarding anything else. Narrow-minded. Single-minded. Wrong-minded.

Do you think an argument about how our Dutchness affects our playstyle spanning 14 pages would be beneficial to the town?

Our arguments regarding playstyle have not spanned 14 complete pages.

And, yes, I think that it would be beneficial to the town. Simply because it may help the town catch scum. Of course, in this situation, it's less useful, since the main effect of our Dutchness is that we can't get all the intricacies and nuances of the English language, but that's not a tell.

There has been more than enough theory discussion going on in this thread, and not all by me, or even Yos. I distinctly remember some talk about using tells.

Any positive effects that might have are easily overshadowed by its distracting influence and clouding of the real issues. Distraction is a tool of the scum's arsenal.

I feel that it's the other way around. And you'll notice me doing that in pretty much every game, every time.

Here, have a cookie. It is, however, completely irrelevant to the argument and I know you're active as both scum and town.

It is very relevant to the argument. You're saying I'm posting worthless content. You're using this as a scumtell. I'm saying I have been posting way more than enough content for this not to be true.

[Zindaras]

Yes, all the townies weren't good enough and all the good players weren't town.

So TSQ wasn't town either?

There's a time for everything, Zindyboy, that was the time for action, for doing the right thing.

It's always a time for argueing.

Because I think that you specifically are an Islamist? It's part of the reason why I think you're scum. I'm also suspicious of others, yes.

Like?

It is not impossible. I do not pretend to be 100% sure, nor do I derive my suspicion only from these specific actions.

So, basically, your entire point relies on interpretation and is subjective.

I'd call it focussing on what's important, trying to get the town to do the right thing.

Working under the assumption that I'm Islamist, yes. Otherwise, you're trying to get the town to lose.

I'm merely using an extreme example to illustrate my point. You're supposed to realize that information an sich need not be beneficial.

Therefore, you must look at every instance where information is added to the thread and determine whether or not it is relevant.

I get plenty of the intricacies and nuances of the English language as far as I'm concerned, I actually meant clogs and stuff. You know, Dutchness.

Oh, me too, but meh. Mostly talking about Dutchies in general.

I will need references.

Unfortunately, the ones that jump to mind are ongoing games: Space Monkey Mafia, Two-Headed Mafia 2, Inquisition Mafia (different site), Unrealistic (also other site). I mainly speculated on roles and setups.

In this game, I speculated that the Mafia would try to force a No Lynch using the tie=no lynch system to catch scum.

I'm saying you've posted worthless content, content with no positive expected value for the town. That content is scummy. Other content you've posted is not relevant to the scumminess of that content.

People who attack others for posting worthless content usually don't attack people who have posted loads of content. In this specific case, other posts are very relevant for your point. You say worthless posts are a scumtell. Well, I can point you to enough worthless posts in this game.

The second is that, in general, Day 1 lynches are less informed than late mid-game lynches, so a misled townie is much more reasonable earlier. In this case, the Islamists have had much more reason to actively pursue townie lynches when they're closer to winning, so I think the germy wagon is a much better place to look.

I feel this is wrong. Day One lynches are almost always useful. I've caught scum multiple times simply by looking at the Day One lynch. The before linked game is a good example, another example is this game, wherein I got unfortunately killed. My investigation did, however, yield Mafia.

[Zindaras]

Well obviously. I mean, have you read his posts?

Yes, but you never asserted he was scum, or what kind of scum.

Even 1 minute before the deadline? We both know that isn't true.

Oh, yes, I'd argue one minute before the deadline. See the earlier linked game, where I did just that.

What did you expect? A cop result? Magic? Of course it's subjective.

You cannot expect me to argue against something which relies merely on a faulty interpretation.

Of course, but you were saying any and all information is beneficial.

I think that any and all relevant information is beneficial, and I feel that the information was relevant to the game.

I cannot comment on those. And I'm not reading a 34-page thread for a mini.

The only relevant part from the link are the first two days. After that, I died. That's up until page 17, pretty much.

If you feel like implicating others, do it, but I saw scummy content and that makes me suspicious of you.

You say it's scummy because it's worthless. Now, what is the worth of, for example, Posts 429 and 430?

And this time it caught us LyingBrian. If you think there's more to be find, you are free to share it with us. I don't think there is.

I would like to point out that Cadre, now Yos, who a lot of people think is Islamist, put the second vote on Shady. LyingBrian was #5.

I think the wagon was pretty much entirely scum-driven. I think friday, now Norinel, is Islamist, fueling the wagon. I think either that Lucresia (now you) or KingPin, votes #3 and #4, is scum.

There were two town votes on KingPin. There was at least one town vote on LyingBrian (two, if you assume sprontie is town). I know I'm town.

Which leaves the conclusion that all three Islamists were on the Shady wagon.

What better to do than to fuel a wagon Day One and later scoff at its usefulness, saying it was "just a Day One lynch"?

[Zindaras]

1. It's pretty obvious what he is.
2. It's not currently relevant.
3. I wouldn't want to scare him into doing something stupid(like killing me, because I'm on to him.)

So, basically, you're saying he's Communist, but you don't want him to kill you. This is preposterous. Only scum tries to hide their suspicions from others, as they are afraid of dying. As town, it's always the correct play to say who you think are scum.

About that day's lynch?

*sighs*

It'd really help if you'd just take a look at the game. These are the posts I made in the 10 minutes before the lynch:

Unvote, Vote: Logain Dimir Ranger

There will be no No Lynch. Jay, you are scummy as hell for doing that.

Neko wa totemo kawaii desu,

Why didn't you break the tie, smartypants?

Neko wa totemo kawaii desu,

Oh, by the way, if GP is scum and LDR is town, then so is DolArrah.

Neko wa totemo kawaii desu,

Argueing against scumbag trying to no lynch, argueing against another guy who tried his best not to break the tie.

This game is all about interpretation, Zind.

Not all of it is. There are some thing which are universally scummy. Your point against me is flawed.

I see, you tried to change the subject again. It wasn't relevant, because in reality any effect is far too player-specific

Explain to me then, how it is possible for there to be several theory articles in the Wiki about tells for docs, cops and the like?

and minute to be a factor.

Every detail is important.

I'm still not gonna read it.

Well, if you're not going to read the games I refer to, then I can never prove my townness.

I've got another game for you, though. Reverse Mafia (Mini 370). I speculated on the setup and that the scum would try desperately to force a scumbag into life Day One.

Making me feel welcome is very much worthwhile(also: polite).

How is it relevant to the game?

A second vote on Day 1? Scummilicious. A fifth vote is far more important on Day 1, as it's part of turning the bandwagon into a lynch.

Votes two through five, and mostly three and four, are in the danger territory.

If the Day 1 lynch is the only thing that can be analyzed(ie. Day 2), such an argument can not carry much weight.

You are using the argument right now. You're ignoring the Day One lynch, while it is not, in any way, irrelevant.

[Zindaras]

It does look like I'm pushing Zind harder, but that's mostly because all I've done after I stated the original case against both of them, is reply to their comments and their arguments and Zind has simply done more of it. I'm voting for Zind, because of his initial reaction(directly calling everyone craplogic). I currently feel he is more suspicious than Yosarian.

I feel that your arguments are horrible. So, yes, I'm calling crap on all of them. That's how I argue. It's not like I called crap then decided not to defend myself.

Dude, bandwagons are a fact of life in Day 1s. This is covered in my point 3. And LyingBrian is who turned the bandwagon(a good thing) into a lynch(a bad thing).

So, basically, your assertion is that LyingBrian, and only LyingBrian, was the one who made the lynch?

This is impossible, seeing how, even from your viewpoint, at least one of the other three votes from the first four are Islamist.

[Zindaras]

I want thestatusquo to kill Islamists. If he thinks he's doomed, he might do all sorts of irrational things. And Today, we have to lynch Islamists, so his political affiliation is not very relevant currently. We have to realize that the Communist can screw over the town by making wrong kills. We need him to the right thing. I deliberate did not mention my suspicion of him, because I feel mentioning it has an expected negative value for the town.

Then how do you feel about the others who have posted who they think is Commie?

Those weren't arguments. You gave no reasons nor did you attempt to convince anyone. Also, your vote was at that point clearly more important.

Second post is argueing with DolArrah, who didn't break the tie. Last post is putting forth a theorema.

(It's arguing, btb.)

*scratches head* I know that one...

Nuh-uh, it totally isn't.

How can I possibly argue against something which essentially relies on nothing but interpretation?

1. They are common roles, so it's no blind speculation.

There are more than enough instances where Survivor rules or mechanics were used. For example, Lights Out Mafia.

What you see in games like this is that scum will tactically lurk.

2. Hidden knowledge, like knowing other people's alignments, are always hard to hide to some degree.

Fixed.

3. Power roles don't try to hide their real roles nearly as diligently as scum.

That's why there are also sections for scumtells in there, right?

4. A lot of those tells are now redundant, except with crazy newbies.

Oh, this one is funny. Yes, very very funny. You're attacking me over not picking up cop tells from Nai, and here you are saying that tells are redundant except with crazy newbies, which, I may point out, Nai most definitely isn't.

5. They are distinct roles, with much clearer psychological results: you're speculating about the effect of not having a nightkill on a scum group. That's never going to accomplish anything.

I'm speculating about the playstyle of a Survivor, which is most definitely useful.

Which was directly relevant to the situation. Also: obvious.

The speculations are comparable. In Reverse, I speculated on how the scum would play. Same here.

Certainly not true on Day 1.

I just pointed you to games where I used this, Day 1, to catch scum, so this is crap.

Firstly, it's no longer Day 2, there are more things to analyze.

So we should just ignore it because there are other things to analyze? Very, very narrow-minded. You're just using things that make your targets look scummy. You're ignoring everything else.

Secondly I do not consider it an fruitful source of information because of several reasons, not just because Day 1 shenanigans were involved.

Like?

Basically, my assertion is that LyingBrian, and only LyingBrian, is responsible for actually getting ShadowLurker lynched. If it were not for him, it would've probably just remained an innocuous bandwagon.

How can it be innocuous if there is guaranteed scum driving the bus?

[Zindaras]

Neither a question nor a theorem constitutes an argument.

*shrugs*

See it however you see it, but that's just semantics.

You can certainly give reasons as to why your interpretation fits the facts of the case better.

Because it makes more sense, d'oh.

Scum did that in Lights Out, because they could get away with it, as a result of the survivor-rule. You can hardly compare it to this situation.

This game is pretty lurkariffic. Have you not noticed that ever since you replaced in, the only real posting going on came from you, me and Yos? Sprontalic had a good post in between, but the rest is just sitting on their behinds and watching on.

I'm suggesting we look for scum. You're suggesting we look for Survivors, cultists, whatever.

I've said this before. Never did my theory about how the Islamists would play lead me to clear someone from being Islamist or confirm someone to be Islamist. The only thing that it influenced it is that I was (even) more interested in pressuring lurkers than in other games.

A lot, not all. Also, you said you

did

see him as cop, so now you're contradicting yourself.

Yes, I could've seen him as Cop. But I also could've seen him as a Republican. I've done the whole blind attacking thing plenty of times as town, and always as vanilla townie. Again, the game I linked you to earlier is a perfect example. I mindlessly attacked SarinFuzz Day 2.

To top it off, I don't know how Nai plays, exactly. My only reference here is Mini 380, which is still ongoing, and he's still alive in it. In this game, he made a similar attack on Coron as he did here on LyingBrian.

What you said essentially boiled down to: "Scum [really] want to lynch townies." It was directly relevant, as it affected how the town would deal with claims. It did not needlessly limit the lynch pool. It's very different.

What I said in Reverse was that scum would try desperately to get scum revived Day 1 in fear of a Cop, and that they would

Seriously, second votes? You lynched someone based on that person placing a second vote? That should promote random voting(aka getting the game started).

No, I investigated someone because he was the second vote on a lynch. And he was scum. This is an approach that I use a lot when I've got Cop roles, and it tends to work out for me.

I looked at everything, I'm now making my case. Also, that quote was referencing my original quote on the matter.

You're doing nothing but making a case. You're not saying anything about other things. You're just bent single-mindedly on my lynch.

Because a 3-vote bandwagon is harmless.

This is crap. LyingBrian cast the fifth vote, for one. For two, it cannot possibly be harmless if there's guaranteed scum on it. How can something which led to the death of a townie possibly be harmless?

[Zindaras]

They certainly can be useful, but my point was that later game lynches can be even more useful.

Yet this is no reason to disregard the Day One lynch.

I don't see how this follows at all.

7 -

Shadowlurker

(friday-13th, Cadre, Lucresia, KingPin,

LyingBrian

,

germy

, Thestatusquo)
2 - Kingpin (

Nai, Shadowlurker

)
2 -

LyingBrian

(

chamber

, sprontalic)

not voting: Rastapopolous

Now, we add the assumptions as I listed them:

7 -

Shadowlurker

(friday-13th, Cadre, Lucresia, KingPin,

LyingBrian

,

germy

,

Thestatusquo

)
2 - Kingpin (

Nai, Shadowlurker

)
2 -

LyingBrian

(

chamber, sprontalic

)

not voting:

Rastapopolous

Greening myself stands to reason, I think sprontie's town, and TSQ's everyone's best bet as last Commie. This leaves the three Islamists in the first four votes.

What better than to fuel a wagon Day Three,

when you're two mislynches away from winning

, and later scoff at its usefulness, saying it was "the obvious choice" or "scummy as hell"?

I'm not saying Day Three should be disregarded. I'm saying that the Day One lynch shouldn't be disregarded. I feel that there were two scumbags on the germywagon, namely Yoslamist and thestatusquommunist.

In the endgame? Not at all. As I've said before, as of Day 3 the Islamists were from a day game perspective a group that needed to lynch two people outside their group in a row in order to win the game. Yes, things get a little more complicated if we do pull off an Islamist lynch today, but the lack of kill's effect on the day game strategy isn't nearly as important as them acting as a group (Like mafia), knowing most everyone's alignment (Like mafia), and being one or two vote-hopping lynches away from an outright win (Like mafia).

I've used my speculation all game as an incentive to crack down harder on lurkers. You don't see me attacking people merely because they post like I would expect Islamists to post.

[Zindaras]

You're jumping to all kinds of conclusions here. There were seven people on the bandwagon. Cadre was an early vote on the bandwagon and gave a reason that's perfectly rational for day 1. Lying brian pushed the wagon with craplogic, and I helped lynch him because of it. So why is Cadre any more scummy then the other 5 people on the bandwagon?

I'm not saying I find Cadre's timing on the wagon any more suspicious than I find any other's of the first four voters. I just find you, over the whole game, to be suspicious.

Though you do have a point that TSQ could be Islamist as well. However, this doesn't necessarily change anything regarding the numbers.

[Zindaras]

Too bad I am vanilla town, that changes quite a bit.

It changes nothing in the respect that it will still hold up that there is one boatload of scum on that wagon.

[Zindaras]

And why would that be?

What I have accused you earlier of.

He could be an islamist,and the other islamists are trying to plant the idea in our heads he's a commie so he dosn't get lynched today. Or he could be an innocent townie, and the actual communist and/or islamists could be trying to plant false ideas in our heads now to take advantage of at some point in the future, when we really do want to lynch the communist. Either way, I don't trust how sure both you and CES seem to be about his alignment.

*shrugs*

The assumption isn't necessary for the numbers to work out. I'll admit that I may have been a bit too quick on saying he's a Commie though.

No, it doesn't?

Your entire theory relies on the idea that I've been setting up a germy lynch ever since I first joined into the game.

Norinel has posted at least as much as Spront,

I have not heard his thoughts about the ongoing debate at all.

Kingpin is getting replaced and TSQ is scum.

Is being scum a free out not to have to do anything?

Zind, stop talking about ongoing games, because I can't respond to that.

Doesn't defeat the point that I have no metagaming perspective on Nai and therefore I cannot know how he plays normally. The only game I played with him previously was Mini 362, Open Role Bastard, in which he also played aggressively (though I only got to play with him for one day).

Did any of your references include claimed cops?

I just said that I was a Townie when I did that.

They would what?

Different setup, new rules. Instead of lynching people, people got revived.

The scum on those forums sucked?

Nope.

You got lucky?

I've consistently used voting analysises to catch scum, here, there, everywhere. It works extremely well.

There's nothing scummy about a second vote, hell I've argued that not placing a second vote can be scummy before.

No, not inherently. It's just a matter of looking at the specifics.

The important word in my quote was "now".

There is no future, if you get what you want.

What does LyingBrian's vote have to do with it? And scum can also do harmless things. The death of a townie was not the logical result of the bandwagon. Holding it responsible for the death is nonsensical.

Would ShadowLurker have gotten lynched if those first votes hadn't been on him?

Also, good to see you're responding to all my points.

[Zindaras]

Which part of it? Or by heard do you mean listened to?

I don't know how you view it at all. I don't know how you feel about CES, about me, about how the debate's going, you know, everything.

Oh, by the way, technically, we can No Lynch this day, as the Islamists can't win at night either.

The only problem there would be if the Commie'd suddenly decide to kill someone.

[Zindaras]

Note: I'm not suggesting we actually no lynch, as I don't think it'd be a good idea, but I'm reminding people that the possibility is there.

[Zindaras]

It's mainly for the possible situation wherein we don't know what to do and want more time, but the deadline is looming.

[Zindaras]

*shrugs*

If we lynch anyone today, it should be a well thought-out decision.

[Zindaras]

Well, d'oh.

A well thought-out decision is most likely to lead to an Islamist lynch.

[Zindaras]

Do you agree that Islamists in endgame will behave more like Mafia than like Survivors? You may explain your answer, but that's a yes or no question.

Yes and no. The only real difference between a "normal" lylo and this lylo is that in this situation, we can hypothetically no lynch and come back tomorrow. However, that's completely irrelevant, as the situation would be entirely the same.

I would like to note, however, that a Survivor would act the same as Mafia during endgame, as he simply needs one lynch to win, and the same goes for Mafia.

The difference between Survivors and Mafia lies in the fact that Survivors don't have a nightkill, and Mafia does. In an endgame, nightkills are completely irrelevant and thus, the difference between Survivors and Mafia is nullified.

So I would argue that the Islamists would behave like Survivors, who would behave like Mafia, in this endgame.

[Zindaras]

I could go with a Yossy lynch today, though I'd prefer a Norry or Cessy one.

[Zindaras]

Big argument.

I'm not really seeing the relevance of it.

Vote: Yossyboy

Die, Yoslamist!

I want Apeiron to state hir opinions, too (gender unspecified as it's unknown).

[Zindaras]

I do believe I've outlined my reasons for finding you scummy before. Sprontie recapped it pretty well, in my opinion:

My question is...why have you done to try and find scum? All you've done is throw a couple of fos'es then follow it up with a post or 2. After that you leave is and just start pointing out other people's ideas and thowing in a bit of your own. I have no problem with strategy discussions, but fact is that's all you're doing (besides defending yourself). You've hardly made any effort to finding scum.

[Zindaras]

Note: the above is my main reason. There are many smaller ones, among those the Day 1 lynch and such.

[Zindaras]

Unvote

[Zindaras]

Nah, that sounds unlikely.

Anyhow, what about a no lynch today? If Yosarian2 is the Communist, he can kill Zislamist for us and if he's not, the real Communist can kill Yosarian2 for us. Right?

1) Even if Yommunist would agree to something like this, he'd probably be killing sprontalic, if anyone, looking at his suspicion list. Regardless, you're pushing me for a lynch, while there is no real support for this.

2) It would be suicidal of Yommunist to agree with this.

[Zindaras]

The correct play now is to No Lynch. If Yommunist is smart, he won't kill anyone. If he's lying, the real Communist can kill him.

[Zindaras]

No, if Yommunist is smart, he'll probably kill whoever he wants. Currently, that would probably we sprontalic, true, but I can always try and convince him before the deadline.

He should kill either you or Norry.

[Zindaras]

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

Woooo!

[Zindaras]

Woooo, hammah!

[Zindaras]

Vote: Cessy

Die, Islamist scum!

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I can live with a Norry lynch today too.

[Zindaras]

Meh, at least I don't strawman people.

[Zindaras]

Where did that come from?

Points were magically disappearing from our argument back there.

I challenge you to a duel!

Again?

[Zindaras]

Points were magically disappearing from our argument back there.

Because they were either irrelevant or simply a matter of opinion.

Anyhow, that's not what a strawman is. At all.

You were letting points drop to make your argument seem stronger.

Mod

, would you allow us to play a game of RAF as a duel? (It need not end with Zindaras actually dying.)

No, but if you use the dice tags and agree on who rolls, you can almost accomplish it on your own.

I'm up for a game of RAF. Totally.

[Zindaras]

Woo, lynch!

[Zindaras]

Also, by the way, read the opening post and the Islamist PM:

If there is only one Republican left, and equal amounts of Islamists and Communists, it's civil war and the Islamists win.

[Zindaras]

Woah, so sprontalic was Commie.

That's surprising. Really surprising.

Anyway, woo, win!

[Zindaras]

Also, first scumwin on this site. Woo^2!

Anyway, I think we did a good job at distancing ourselves from each other.

[Zindaras]

Pfft, I was on to both of you.

I know. But Apeiron was pretty clean, and there were no "If Yos is scum, then so is Zindie"-sentiments.

What made you so sure I was scum, though? I thought I had it pretty well. I made a couple of minor mistakes, mainly when LB claimed Cop (not sure whether I wanted the Cop to counterclaim or not), but I didn't think I was doing that horribly.

[Zindaras]

Yeah, I overdid it on the first post by calling it all crap, but I get that sometimes.

If spront had killed Yossy, I would've gone for TSQ as Commielynch next.

I was pretty sure about TSQ being the Commie, as he was the only one for whom killing Yossy would've been a bad idea.

[Zindaras]

'Twas a good setup, that I agree.

Well, there's at least something we agree on this game. >.>

I enjoyed it. We pretty much got control with the LyingBrian lynch. Suddenly, the lonely annoying confirmed townie was gone. That was what I was most afraid of: the President coming back and biting us in the behind. When Norry and Cessy came in and pointed the accusing finger at me, I got a bit annoyed/afraid.

Anyway, I think this was a good set-up.

[Zindaras]

Yay!

Thanks sprontalic for voting someone other than one of the Islamists, so we could gang up on it and take the win :p

I had assumed the Town would have figured the following out yesterday:

There was one vote on Yosarian2, and one on Zindaras.
4 votes needed for a lynch, 3 Islamists alive.
If anyone voted for anyone non-Islamist, the 3 Islamists could just bandwagon on it and take the win.

However, no-one followed up on the votes on Zindaras or Yosarian2. So I had assumed at least someone would think because of that, that they were Islamist. Of course this is all assuming that the Islamist would be in time for making the lynch.

...and today we were We just needed one vote from someone outside the group on someone outside the group to take the win.

This game was pretty interesting. Too bad I got in really late, but still fun

-We did, in fact, get a wagon on Yos, and pretty quickly, too.

-That noone followed up on the Zind-wagon, well, whose opinion was it going to change? Cessy and Norry were convinced I was scum, Spronty thought I was town, and TSQ was gone.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP:

Attempting to quicklynch when you still need three votes is quite risky. Even despite that that could just as easily point to me and spront.

And that, obvobv.