Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over

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Hi everyone. I'm replacing in. Just give me till tomorrow to look through everything. I skimmed through a little, and I really don't like people who choose not to go through PBPAs. I've have content later.

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Sorry about this, I've gone through this game twice and I'm still having trouble getting reads on people. I promise I'll definitely go through it again and post something up really soon.

Erm... IH: I am in PS2SUX.

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I've completed my 4th readthrough. (I'm lucky this is only 7 pages...)

Currently, I have no scum tells on anyone. The previous pages consist of people picking out weak scum tells, accusing the people who make the scumtell, then other people accusing the accuser for accusing someone with weak reasons. Then other people siding with either the original accuser or the people who are accusing with the accuser. (Yup, I know that's a confusing scummary.)

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As a replacement, I thought it'll make common sense to spend time reading the game over. I generally don't trust other people to tell me what went on. While I wasn't hoping for a miracle, I hoped to at least feel a few scum vibes.

LuckayLuck, care to explain why you're 95% sure Echo is a townie?

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Echo: In case you didn't notice, I've gone through this game in DETAIL 4 times.

I'm not getting the townie tells. They're based largely on personal opinion, and individual playstyle, and I can also see them being scummy/neutral tells. I don't really see LL as scummy for saying Echo is town, just that I think LL is a confused townie who needs to have a better scumdar.

I'm going to do a m4yhem and

vote: Rathyr

Since one vote didn't get him talking. And I value Rathyr as a player, his input should be helpful.

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Sorry about this, break-camp got delayed due to floods and rain.

First off,

unvote

since I see we have a replacement, and my original vote was to get him to say something.

Ripley: So are you saying that people who post huge posts are townie because of the effort they put in? That's simply untrue. IH, for example, posts huge posts everywhere. I've seen mafia posts super long PBPAs in many games too. I'd also argue that sometimes very long posts confuse everyone. I'm not saying the people who have posted the long posts are scummy, I'm just saying that we can't clear them because of that.

I've spent some time thinking about LL. And I've come up with a whole lot of WIFOM logic. I think LL's just has a weird playstyle, but LL isn't scum. Here's why:

1) By posting his list, he immediately draws attention to himself. This generally isn't scummy behaviour. Furthermore, his list is weird... like others have pointed out, people who are scummy generally are people who attack him + other logic that is weak. WIFOM logic, yes, but I really see no reason for any scum to do this.

2) Why would he declare so many people townie? From a townie's perspective, narrowing down the field makes it more likely to lynch scum out of the remainder. From a scum's perspective, wouldn't scum try to muddy the waters by trying to accuse more people? Purpose of the list if LL is scum: to hide his other scum buddies by proclaiming them town. This doesn't make sense because it draws attention to them when we analyse who's on and who's off. (like what I see people have been doing over the last couple of pages.)

About my readthroughs (involving IH and GC)
A short summary: I say that I've read through, and I've not come up with anything. GC foses me for expecting a miracle. IH accuses of GC of telling me not to read the game. GC clarifies.

While I wasn't expecting a miracle, I always read when I replace in. This helps me get a better grasp of everyone. I disagree that I'll definitely not get a town/scum tell after the read. I've replaced into 10+ games, and around 75% of the time I get something, may not be definite, but something (unfortunately, not in this game though). Then again, I don't see GC scummy for jumping on me, since it was my fault for not clarifying my objective in doing the reads in the first place, and I don't see IH scummy for jumping on GC, because when I first read GC's post, that's exactly what I thought. And GC isn't scummy because he's clarification makes sense. This whole episode just consisted of nitpicking, and poor choice of words.

Now let me go take a look at who I find scummy.

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I've spent some time thinking about LL. And I've come up with a whole lot of WIFOM logic.

Yes, I knew it's WIFOM. PJ has an excellent post somewhere about how everything in mafia is WIFOM anyway... but that's a discussion for some other thread. I was just trying to explain why I think LL's list isn't a scum-tell.

I always try to post, even if I have nothing significant to say, to maintain a presence in the game.

Hm... and where is Echo now?

I'm always suspicious of people who vote without a reason. Reason being they could be scum blind voting hoping for someone else to provide them with a reason. Also because the more information somone gives for a vote, the more info we have to work with tomorrow after the dead guy's alignment is revealed.

A post attacking someone needs responses from people so we know who agree and disagrees. M4yhem's comment probably meant that he had read through the ripley-bashing post and disagreed (correct me if I'm wrong though).

That bit where Ripley is accused of not actively trying to find scum is yet another bit of WIFOM. Scum could be lurking in disguise (I'm assuming this is what S says, ), or scum could be throwing suspicion on non-scum (like what S could be doing.)

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The bolded part: I'm assuming that S is claiming that Ripley is scum lurking in disguise, since you're accusing him of not actively looking for scum.

It's WIFOMish on town side, because you're trying to predict what townies will do. I've seen many townies not actively looking for scum.

I missed the unvote revote, by IH. I think Seol's reasons against IH are solid, and I really want to hear IH's responses.

After 48 hours, it's ok to ask for prods.

prods please, mod?

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c_d: bird has announced in another game that he's quitting mafia.

Oh and here's a prelim

FOS: IH

till we hear more from him. IGMYOY.

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To IH who seems to love PBPAs:
A suggestion about PBPA's: please cut down the quotations to the relevant portions. I'd rather read more analysis than quotes. To prevent people from screaming things like misrepresentation!, I suggest putting post numbers instead.

Well, I have to admit that IH is usually an active player, so I was puzzled when he dropped off the planet for this game. Fine, so I forgive him for that unvote-revote thing, but I'm not 100% satisfied with his explanation regarding GC.

If I've gotten your PBP right, the main reason you're voting LL is because you can't get a read on him? In that case, I'd be more comfortable voting people who haven't really posted, since I have even less of a read on them compared to LL.

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Got it. I have to admit I was thoroughly confused when I read your latest post.

Cut the quotes shorter, not every part of the quote is relevant, and put less spaces inbetween.

I just skimmed through the last page and this one, and I realised that what we have are accusations, with close to no responses except IH's. It's highly likely that we're all townies banging heads, with scum completely off the radar via lurking.

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Is it just me, or is m4yhem always doing this: I can say more, but I'm waiting for so and so thing?

I buy IH's reasons for suspecting LL, but I think it's a weak case. Same as last post, I'm not going to go accuse someone when we have so few people responding, and it's statistically likely some of the lurkers are scum.

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yes.

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Merry Christmas everyone!

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mod

So did Echo respond to the prod?

Note: I already brought this up on the last page.

I don't have any thoughts at the moment. But I don't think not taking the lead is a definite scum-tell. After all, I haven't taken the lead in over 90% of my games, and I wasn't scum in every one. However, I agree that misunderstanding people a lot is a scumtell, considering this isn't a newbie.

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I know GC has been around.

To IH: To pare it down a little, someone said that not taking the lead = scum-tell. I disagree. But I said misunderstanding people a lot = scum-tell.

Undecided/confused at the moment, but I'll have something more coherent soon.

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vote: echo

Discuss.

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Gah. Just realised the replacement for Echo hasn't arrived.

unvote

For some odd reason, I thought we had one who wasn't talking. Too much drink over the hols.

Wolfsbane: I just read the last page over, and I'm dis/unsatisfied with your response towards m4yhem. You've only managed to explain your weak case, not your being confused too often and your non-commitalness. (And I also don't like your explanation, by the way.)

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I've been unconsciously skimming over wolfsbane and vaughn myself, simply because they're the players I haven't played with. Forced myself to stop doing that when I caught it though.

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Around. I believe the claim will throw a lot of things out to discuss so I'll talk more then.

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vote: CES

For no reason other than the fact that he admitted he would wagon, and he was last on IH.

Where is Echo?

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Sorry guys, tired from speed chess tourney, more tomorrow.

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I'm back. After reviewing all the reasons, I can see a lynch for wolfsbane. At the same time, I'd definitely like to hear from everyone before I put my vote on.

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unvote

I should have done this in my last post but I forgot.

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I'm back. After reviewing all the reasons, I can see a lynch for wolfsbane. At the same time, I'd definitely like to hear from everyone before I put my vote on.

My comment above. I unvoted in preparation of a vote. I do not believe the role, for the same reasons as Seol. I've been something like that before, but I had a percentage each time I did it, not a one-shot.

vote: wolf

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Post 279 was made on Jan 3, and I said I wasn't satisfied with wolfsbane. I explained why I had ignored him and Vaughn in post 281 (+ it was the holidays... I'd rather celebrate Christmas than play mafia.)

LL voted for wolfsbane in 315. CES in 316. IH in 317, m4yhem in 321, Seol in 326.

I was away from MS.net when the voting occured. (I posted about it in V/LA.) When I came back in 328, I said I could see a wolfsbane lynch. I hammered in 349 because I didn't believe his claim.

I'll have a close look at Vaughn. I haven't been paying him enough attention.

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LL: I thought by now you should've learnt never to trust people too much, and never to play the % game.

I think IH is cleared, due to the dead Gretel. I don't think LL is cleared for starting the wagon, I've seen scum do that to distance before.q

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Crap my PBPA of Vaughn disappeared... Another one coming back up.

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Nov 17
Voted jl2704/lowell, for having numbers

Nov 17
voted dodgy

Nov 19
Metagaming: GC is more aggressive.

Dec 22
Told us to ignore him till we heard from him.

Dec 24
Seol is protown.
Dialogue between GC, LL, Seol: one of them is scum.
Echo + LL = scum.
LL scum-tell:
1) too eager to clear himself
2) wanting to lead scumhunt
3) for thinking activity = townie.

m4yhem:
Asked why to the 1st 2. Said the 3rd is unlikely. Said case against echo is thin.

Vaughn's response:
He's not connected to wolfsbane, evidence required.
He thinks Echo isn't scum, Echo is a newbie.
Doesn't want to lurker-hunt.

I want Vaughn to answer:
1) Why does he think either GC/LL are scum.
2) Why he thought Seol was protown at that time.

I want LL to answer:
Why exactly do you think m4yhem is scummy.

Unofficial VC
Vaughn: m4yhem, CES, IH

vote: Vaughn

(partly due to avoidance of questions, partly due to IH's post 368).

DO NOT HAMMER till we hear from him.

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Does anyone know if Vaughn is around?

I think IH is cleared. That's why I like playing games in little italy, not coney.

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Also, I dont' remember who brought it up, but I don't buy the Vaughn/SV scumteam after SV sent in her

latest attack on him

. I can, however, buy a SV scum, Vaughn SK situation.

M4hem- I find SV's recent posts to be wishy-washy and meaningless. She tends to defend herself more than attack.

Does anyone besides me see a contradiction?

I don't like people who speculate about power roles. People speculating = giving Vaughn scum ideas about fake-claiming.

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Not to be mean or anything, but has Vaughn picked up his prod?

I maintain my stand on the existing contradiction.

Lowell: I've seen manymany games where scum claimed something based on town speculation.

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Ih has been sick.

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Vaughn: Why are you so sure IH won't make it into endgame? I'd assume exactly the opposite.

Smells like an excuse to me...

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Because I assume mafia would rather take a shot at getting a power role? After all, they either get a power role or a vanilla with a successful nightkill.

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LL: That's a scum tactic called appeal to emotion. Apparently it has succeeded on you.

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3rd consecutive nightkill. Go town!