Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over

[IH]

Vote Dodgy

for having cos instead of cause in his sig.

[IH]

I'm sure you are, Mr. Ripley. But some are not so impressed with flashy word things.

On a completely unrelated note, we made the second page of random voting. Congratulations.

Now I'm impressed.

Hawt damn!

[IH]

I know, it's like you, SV, and Patrick are in half my games.

GC, is that also a scum tell?

[IH]

My vote on Green Crayons is no longer random. I'm now voting him for accusing me of something ridiculous. Everybody was laying low, no sign of mafia anymore, I made a suggestion that I saw nobody as being mafia-ish so I pointed out a small thing. Now, he's voting for me because apparently there was something bigger.

You honestly think there's something more suspicious? What was it before what I quoted?

Eh, I took it more as a joke myself. Especially when he made the (what I took to be) sarcastic remark into something of a scum tell.

FoS:LuckayLuck

[IH]

[quote="Bird1111]Though is the three pages of spam remark supposed to be a joke? [/quote]

I'd say so.

[IH]

Granted, now I'm curious as to why you think Echo's post made him a bit more on the town side for you. His comment "Seems like they're jumping on each other for small reasons." seems like he's reaching for something to post simply so he can post something, which is what I've done a few times while scum. Granted, it's not much and is a pretty weak suspicion point (more or less just giving me a nudge to scruitinize his posts a bit more), but it's there nonetheless. I'm curious as to why he was moved in the opposite direction in your opinion.

It's page 1 on a day 2 start. You also just seemed to contradict yourself. He's reaching for something to post, and posts a small suspicion. You say you do that as scum. You then say that's not much, and is still a weak suspicion.

Perhaps he's just trying to get the game started a little more. It is only the second page.

I think that's good enough this early in the game for an

unvote, Vote:Green Crayons

Unless I misunderstood you.

[IH]

How do we know you're not a scumbuddy bolstering a partner early?

[IH]

At this moment in time, I think that Echo is the most townish of all of you, which isn't saying much. It's a small hunch, the way he worded the 'wish-for-spam' thing. I'm somebody who actually really likes delving into townie tells, and I believe that Echo expressed one.

I don't buy into "townie tells"

[IH]

If you just explained how I'm contradicting myself, I need you to spell it out for me in more simple terms. Just because something I have done (note: a few times; not as in a hard and fast rule) before as scum doesn't mean that everyone does it, merely that it is something that I personally know that scum have done before (since I have been scum that has done it). Likewise, just because I did it doesn't mean that every scum will do it, or that if it is done it would necessarily be done by scum. How is that not an inherently weak suspicion?

You said he was accusing someone on a weak suspicion, which could be suspicious.
You then say that this in itself is a weak suspicion.
Therefore, wouldn't you just have called yourself suspicious?

[IH]

Granted, now I'm curious as to why you think Echo's post made him a bit more on the town side for you. His comment "Seems like they're jumping on each other for small reasons." seems like he's reaching for something to post simply so he can post something, which is what I've done a few times while scum. Granted, it's not much and is a pretty weak suspicion point (more or less just giving me a nudge to scruitinize his posts a bit more), but it's there nonetheless. I'm curious as to why he was moved in the opposite direction in your opinion.

It seems like you're reaching for something to post about there, like Echo, so you would look more suspicious in your own eyes. Its small, but it's there nonetheless?

[IH]

Is there really no such thing as a townie tell? Are there not power role tells, which by extension would be townie tells?

If there were, scum would be mimicing them to the point they would become scum tells.

Also, I don't personally think anyone's suspicious for posting something early with a "weak suspicious point" but I was showing GC the error in his logic.

[IH]

What Echo's statement did (along with bird's, which didn't escape my notice) was, was simply say "Hey, look guys! I'm here, I'm not a lurker; ie: I'm a productive townie!" To me, that looks suspicious; apparently, to Luck, it looks good. Regardless, all it did was add no substance, it did nothing productive in and of itself. In other words, it was reaching to simply post something

How many of those posts on page 2 have substance? Are they all suspicious?

Also, responding to the rest of that post, you admitted that it was a weak suspicion.

I took it as you were using circular reasoning. He had posted something small, and you had, in turn, posted something small. Is yours supposed to make you look even MORE townie because you pointed out something slightly suspicious?

I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was just saying how flawed a statement that was.

Now, IMO, it seems like you're trying to turn a page 2 post with no substance into a something majorly suspicious. That is something I will accuse you of.

unvote, vote:Green Crayons

Double L, your vote holds no sway over me.

Unvote
Vote IH

IH, you need to believe more in the power of the townie tell. Also, this particular statement really hit me as...strange. As odd. I've got warning bells flashing in my head

I don't believe in the power of a townie tell. I still say there is no such thing as a true town tell that someone can do at the beginning of a game, and you can have a safe assumption that someone is town. I'd be more likely to believe that Scum would use "townie" tells to make their partner look more innocent, and avoid being grilled.

You said he was accusing someone on a weak suspicion, which could be suspicious.
You then say that this in itself is a weak suspicion.
Therefore, wouldn't you just have called yourself suspicious?

It's such a circular argument which really goes nowhere. And if you come back and call me suspicious for calling your argument suspicious...


Also, this may or may not seem crazy to you, but I am going to now make a weird statement (believe me, this is well thought out and may or may not be used for a greater purpose). For the rest of day1, (barring something ridiculous, of course), I am going to assume that Green Crayons and Seol are townies.

1.That looks like a circular argument, because that's how I interpreted Green Crayons post.

In other words, that's how it looked to me, and thats the whole reason I brought it up.

2.

FoS:LuckayLuck

never assume automatically that someone is town or scum. You need to look at everyone objectively. Even if you are protown, you could be choosing someone to look on as a townie, who is scum, and completely ignore them.

That's like what Dodgy said in post 68.

[IH]

Just letting people know I'm here after the crash. Later this afternoon I'll post something. Also....

My goodness. "1/1000th of a scum tell Ripley-buddy-basher LuckayLuck coldly rebuffed in shock dual-best-friend proposal". How much pathos and irony am I supposed to be able to take on a Monday morning

The forums crashed just a few hours after you posted this XD

[IH]

As to why I don't care if you find my actions suspicious is because 1. I don't think much suspicion can be gleaned from it, and 2. there are plenty of more suspicious people than myself. Town players can't help but acquire suspicion, so I consider it a good thing when these two conditions occur.

This jumped out to me after Seoul's post. I wouldn't have even noticed probably.

How else are we going to find if ANYONE is suspicious, other than by their actions/posts? Blind guessing? Doing as LuckayLuck is doing and assuming people are town openly?

Also, there are more suspicious people than you? IMO that says "there are other people scummier than me, why don't you say something about them?"

I will not get off your back until you offer a satisfactory explanation. Whatever your gambit was, it has backfired - you started by making a scummy statement (and I will consider it scummy until you give me good reason to think otherwise), and you have continued since in a manner which is entirely consistent with scum trying their hardest to get out of the argument.

I actually believe LL is being serious . He's doing this in another game, but unfortunately that's just a tad WIFOM. I feel like it's a bad play on LL's part but.... eh, I'm not exactly sure as to his alignment at all from it, since it'd a bad play for scum and town.

I wouldn't call it a Gambit though, more of a style of play, as I don't believe he was intending it as a risk. There were some things that did strike me though.

When I do it, it's not a scum tell.
When other people do it, it's a scum tell.
This is because I play differently.

(Seems like scum trying for a 'scum tells don't apply to me because my playstyle is so different')

FoS:LuckayLuck

my vote is comfortable on Green Crayons

[IH]

Now, I know you really, really want to twist my words around, so to preempt your undoubted response, I will say, no, me engaging in lengthy arguments with him does not make me innocent. What it does mean, however, is that if I wanted attention to pass over me - which is what you're implying I was hinting at with my comment - I wouldn't have gone about employing such a tactic by pretty much becoming a central figure of discussion, much less one who is insistantly discussing himself.

I'm not twisting. I'm just saying how it comes off to me. It's what it looks like to me. Not to mention this is complete WIFOM.

Also, I did read the whole conversation. You said I don't care if you find my actions suspicious. If you don't care about your actions, I took that to mean you don't care about others either.

You can't glean much suspicion from your actions. Those were all but your exact words.

Then you go on to say surely there are others scummier than you, which I took to mean "Why are you grilling me, there are others worse than I."

Perhaps I misunderstood you though.

[IH]

Jeez. You are, if nothing else, thorough.

Seol wrote:
Please provide links to games where you used this "strategy" on other forums.

I'm so hesitant to do this because I'm a nutjob there. Okay fine, here too. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showf ... page=&vc=1
Reading through day1 should be enough to get to know my general style. No, I don't implement this specific "strategy" but I implement the same general concepts. Villager tells, an excel spreadsheet of doom, crazy theories. The background of the forum which I come from is a lot more casual from this, one-day-day/nights, everyone pretty much knows each other, etc. If it's any consolation, I seriously have a very good townie/mafia list throughout.

Seol wrote:
Are you saying that the comment was intended to be read as inflammatory and unjustified? Did you have any reasons to pick myself and GC? If so, what were they?

1)

If I say that somebody has a townie tell (or, townie feeling, townie-ish, whatever), I am 100% serious. In my mind, it is justified...I mostly call them townie tells because some of them are the psychological quirks which townies tend to do

2)

(you would call this WIFOM, I use WIFOM a lot, don't diss WIFOM).

3)

Some of them are more solid evidence such as timing of responses and etc.

Okay, I'll reveal the reasons why I picked you and GC.

4)

Initially, Seol, I picked you because you made a super-awesome accurate post. It's not just length either, it's...style, Type of response. You will no doubt try to pull off the same type of post as a wolf now that I know you slightly better and have seen more of your posting style, but I still believe you to be the #1 villager here as of RIGHT NOW. What really rang the townie alarm, however, was:

Seol wrote:
Luckay, I've got a newsflash for you. You're not Pooky.

Are you playing to win, or to dick around?

5)

A mafia just can't possibly make THIS post 30 minutes after my crazy proposal of masonry. It's near impossible. This is my townie tell on you, Seol. As I said, I'm 95% sure you're a townie after that little bit.

I now "TRUST" and "FOLLOW" what you say exactly - because you've demosntrated the almighty townie tell. Could I have gotten the tell and had it strengthen even more now by first offering "masonry" and then by stating "95% townie" and such? No way! And you've followed that up with:

Seol wrote:

LuckayLuck wrote:

Seol wrote:
Are you playing to win?

Yes, I'm playing to win.
And I believe I've nailed you down as a townie. If you are indeed a townie, as I'm 95% sure of now, you should recognize that this is valuable information that can only be good.

Except there's no information! Blind trust is dangerous, informed trust is fine but I don't see any evidence of that. I don't want you to trust anyone without reason, including myself.Yes, I'm playing to win.
And I believe I've nailed you down as a townie. If you are indeed a townie, as I'm 95% sure of now, you should recognize that this is valuable information that can only be good.

just 20 minutes after my retort. Seol, you're like 99% villager. And in my world, if I don't say 100%, it means I'm not using BLIND TRUST. I have turned around and lynched / led lynches for those who I have trusted as near-masons in other games. I have turned around and mason-ed with those who I have led lynches for. My style is very flexible, it provides the type of tells that I can see as useful whereas others might not, most of these tells if I presented them would get smacked down with the WIFOM argument...but you know what?

2)

WIFOM is legit evidence townies / mafia.

6

Seol, think of how important the input of a confirmed villager (via seer, for example) is. Townies can finally take the villager's word as gospel and argue directly with him about it with no nagging feeling in their mind "hmm...but...but...maybe he's mafia." Even those one sees as mostly townie...it can never come close to seeing someone as a confirmed townie or as a mason. I manage to do that, I frame it in my mind that someone I have a townie tell on IS a confirmed townie or a mason and treat them as such. A silly crazy exercise? No, it really helps me see their true intentions, gets you thinking on their level unlike that of just reading what they have to say. Sort of hard to explain.

7)

The best thing is, if my mason seems strange at all, and this is something that can only really be seen from really treating your target as a mason and then sensing that slight disturbance...you have the best mafia tell of all time. Because your mason is supposed to be the best villager in the game.

8)

Just...you'll have to recognize that I have a slightly different playstyle. Am I undermining the town? No, I help the town. Sometimes, I feel like a defense attorney for those about to get lynched. More often than not, and it's gotten a lot better recently, I've managed to stop townies from getting lynched / townies did get lynched but I did call it correctly and defended them. Am I ACTIVELY trying to generate reactions from saying "Controversial Target X is a townie"? This is secondary, really...as I've suggested, if this entire concept seems like pure crazy-talk, interpret my actions thus far as:

"I feel that Seol and Green Crayons are leaning townie."

Oh, I missed the reasons for why GC is townie. GC is townie because we had an argument over punctuation. We worked it out. Most importantly, however, GC has sifted one by one across all players who post something of worth. Votes all over the place. In some cases, this is a wolf tell, but in this particular context / voting style it is a townie tell.


Seol, someday...someday, we'll be masons.

I'll respond to the numbers I put in and bolded. I know I have two number twos they're there for a reason.

1)It just shows how little you've played on this site. On smaller sites you can do this, because you generally

know

the players. Here, posting style changes all the time, so there is no such thing as townie tells. To many people. To many styles.

2)WIFOM is generally not a good thing to use. It means you are using some circular logic that can't be proved or disproved. "I think someone might be trying to trick us, or maybe they're doing that so we'll think it's a trick and it's really not, or maybe the 1st one is right."
It doesn't help us at all, because if someone shoots it down, you would come back with your first response.

3)I would actually say it's harder get a "town" feel from someone with their timing than scum. Scum look for timing. Most town just... post I believe(More so than scum anyway)

4)One post makes him confirmed in your book? No way. This is NOT Seoul's first game, so what you said "You will obviously post this way as wolf" would not be correct. He's probably already BEEN scum before, and just never changes his posting style.
I haven't personally been in a game with him before this, so I am only speculating.

5)Actually they can, and it would probably be pretty smart. You've got to understand that these people playing have alot of experience (I'm in a few, and have only finished two myself) but some of these people.... well they'd probably tell you if you ask them outside of this thread.

6)Invalid. No one is a confirmed townie unless dead, you are scum, or you have an investigation. Since we started in a day phase, the latter is impossible right now. I really think there is no such thing as "open masons" as the only advantage of being a mason is talking out of the thread and knowing that the other is innocent. Which brings me to this point.

What would a townie have to gain being an open mason with you? Having someone off of their LoS. That's not that much for them, but if you're scum, that's phenomenal for you.

7)I would just be repeating my last point. Also, wouldn't it just be easier for you to treat them as open masons without telling them? Then they wouldn't watch their posts as much....

I need to think over your style of play more before I come to a conclusion if this is really something you're trying to accomplish, or if there's something more sinister.

[IH]

Double post edit-That smiler face is a number eight that I missed.

8.It seems more like you are.... I don't know. Perhaps it seems like you are

withholding

information from us. That doesn't help the town at all.

[IH]

LL may I make a suggestion? If you truly are town, don't tell us if you find someone you find spectaculary town or say you trust them 100%. All it's currently leading to is arguments between only two or three people.

You don't have to take my advice, but I will no longer buck what you say you're doing, as you said it in a weird way. By trusting them, you say you're keeping a closer eye on them I suppose (though I say you can't view it objectively, but meh.)

I even had something typed up to argue against your last post. I then realized that this is going NOWHERE. Green Crayons is correct. This is an argument building off complete bullshit.

I would almost go as far to say that you could be using a distraction tactic. This has dominated discussion, but not really produced much information, other than you have a (flawed IMO) different playstyle. If you are both town, you are only helping the scum by drawing attention to yourselves.

I moreso agree with GC that a difference of playstyle is not enough to vote someone. Granted it's a strange one, but I haven't seen any inconsistencies from him and anything substantial gained, other than he is putting trust into someone that can change.

unvote, Vote Echo419

It looks like you were trying to capitalize on something not exactly wrong, as I see more of what he's saying in his last post (that I actually responded to and had time to think it over)

[IH]

CD, to help you, I believe out of those people, Wolfsbane, Rathyr, yellowbounder, bird 111, and jl2704 would be the people to use that pointy stick on. = D

[IH]

(Scratch's Rathyr, Bird and Wolfsbane from that list because he's a dumbass, and then adds Ripley FTL)

pheh, still nothing new to comment on. How sad. May do a little of a reread later tonight.

[IH]

I'm a big supporter of PBP's myself. It helps me organize my thoughts, and I can make connections better, but they are only useful once in a while. For these gigantic posts, I'll delve into them and skim thouroughly I guess you'd say, only commenting on things.

My stand on point by points are, unless it's a slow day, you should only need one once per day to sum up things from the day before.

[IH]

Do you like the cupholders?

Also, Rathyr, Dodgy, and Echo(and possibly wolfsbane), I know you stated your stance on PBPA's, but you could just be doing this to avoid posting anything worthwhile. Would you at least skim them for us, and see if anything jumps out at you, or... something.

I just don't like the idea of you guys sitting out with the excuse "There's no point in posting, long PBP's turn me off".

[IH]

Another game with Spectrumvoid? = D Why don't you replace into PS2sux too!

Also... Luckay, how did you determine each persons position on your spreadsheet? Or is that information you're not willing to part with?

[IH]

Well good! You're in PR3! I'm safe in the newbie games though! Also, I'm in the process of also rereading.

[IH]

How did what you quoted/posted have anything to do with 68?

I'm sorry bird, I didn't really understand that post as much, as I couldn't tell what was yours and what was not because of how the quotes were messed up.

I think I misread post 68, because I thought he was talking about someone being definitely town.... or something. If this was not what you meant, please, let me know Bird. I will be happy to answer.

[IH]

I do tend to lean in that direction. If it's needed, I'll die, but I would much rather play to the end.

Which direction? To stay alive, or that self preservation is scummy?

[IH]

Based on those quotes from Seoul (Which I seemed to have missed for some reason) I'm

unvoting, voting:Echo

[IH]

Mod can we have a votecount?

[IH]

LL, I must say.... do you just peg the people coming under the most heat as townie? (Refers to Royal Mafia and Canuckle)

[IH]

1-Disagree. Wolfsbane is right that that statement is innacurate because others (such as Dodgy and Rathyr) said they didn't like big posts.
2-WIFOM. Some just talk to themselves.
3-Neutral. In fact, maybe a little on the scummy side. Just because they called out an INCONSISTENCY of their own posts does not mean they're town. In fact, they've just pointed something out, so you should be watching them closer.

[IH]

.......Why are you voting? Have you seen him on since you posted? Why not ask for a

prod

?

[IH]

I am in agreeance with Ripley and M4yhem. Where's the anger? I see none. Does this make him even more town to you Lowell, or.... does it shoot his case down IYO?

[IH]

Yes, I know, but I wasn't sure if you meant that you were getting vibes from it because he was angry, or not?

[IH]

...LL you frustrate me. I would like to ask you a question about your spreadsheet though. What do you mean by style? Posting style? Style with pazzaz? My timely confetti throwing?

Mm... you have said something though that is true, that I need to get in this game more. I feel like a skimmer = /

I saw something awhile back about SV, and then someone jumping on her for doing four rereads.... Ripley's latest post made me think about it. Hold on a sec.

[IH]

I'm finding this to be counterproductive. As I believe Seol pointed out (somewhere on page five or six), Day One has nothing to go off of and therefore you start out with the little things and build your way up from there. Spectrum seems to feel as if somehow her readings were going to give her an incredible insight that everyone else failed to pick up on, and that just seems to be irresponsible. You have to start somewhere, and more often than not, that somewhere is very, very small; however, she seems to be neglecting these smaller indicators of suspicion in lieu of the Big Tell that's just waiting to jump out at her. FoS: Spectrum for expecting nothing short of a miracle.

.....It looks like you're trying to DISCOURAGE her from rereading the game here. It seems to me that you're trying to shoot down her 4 rereads, but I believe she replaced in. You also FoSed her because she didn't find anything to much, just people nitpicking at others.

I've completed my 4th readthrough. (I'm lucky this is only 7 pages...)

Currently, I have no scum tells on anyone. The previous pages consist of people picking out weak scum tells, accusing the people who make the scumtell, then other people accusing the accuser for accusing someone with weak reasons. Then other people siding with either the original accuser or the people who are accusing with the accuser. (Yup, I know that's a confusing scummary.)

It's dividing the game for... well like no reason. Just arguments that don't get us anywhere I believe, and I think much of it was over LL's style of play...

(Looks up and still see's townie tells)

.... I swear, you CAN'T just play this game like that. You can't write all of their actions down, put pluses and minuses in them, and expect to catch scum everytime. It's like you set a list of rules down, and expect them to work, like... the mind is a law of science. I do NOT agree with this. That is what makes a game of mafia so fun! It's unexpected, and you're matching wits with one another. Not turning it into a statistical game of tells. pheh
(Sorry for the rant.)

unvote, vote:GC

[IH]

Trying to pick up tips on how to seem more town, IH?

actually, just trying to find how he came to these conclusions. If he's just going on style..... I didn't know if he meant their playstyle, or their posting style. I'm also still not sure what he means by style....

Thats actually like asking someone something like...

Why was that scummy?

Does that mean they're trying to pick up tips to be more town, or what?

Have you ever heard of Psychology, IH? The mind does work according to the laws of science. Anyway, why do I get the feeling that you don’t want us to listen to Luckay? Why would that be? Has he pegged you AND your scumbuddies already? No wonder you are frustrated.

No, I don't think that you can go through a game, and hope to find scum by plugging plus's and minus's beside them. The mind is not set in steel, as it is clearly moldable, and people's actions change and such. Not everyone is going to go down the same path.

[IH]

SV, you're two points on LL... I'm not sure if you meant it or not, but you do know that that is terribly wifom?

1)Perhaps he was anticipating this. Perhaps he was not. I mean it's just a general playstyle, so I don't really think it means anything about his alignment of "drawing attention to himself". If it's a protown behaviour, you can be guaranteed that scum will try to mimic it.

(Anyone know the correct spelling of guarantee anyway? Is that it?)

2)His list looks more like its a little... flexible. I dunno, but judging from his earlier explanations, he changes it to however it suits him and we'd never know.... as we're not exactly sure about what he's saying about them. Timing, style, etc? He'll give us two posts or so for an example, and just... have that as all but totally clearing them.

Pheh, just showing you the error in your logic, but I do agree that LL is more likely to be town IMO.

GC, either I'm misinterpreting what you've said, or you just don't like how it was brought about, but this is why I try to include full quotes. So I have where I drew my conclusions from. I am most certainly not "Misrepresenting" you, but it just looks to me like you FoSed SV for.... well.... rereading the game.

= / I calls em how I sees em.

[IH]

Alright guys, I'm going to be honest. I've been really distracted by this game, and just haven't got back into it. When I saw those quotes from Seoul, it was things that I hadn't noticed at the time, and thought it was suspicious.

Pheh, you guys are going to have to give me time to reread, since one of my games are just getting over with. (SV = D )

[IH]

look a slight pbp! Forgive me for doing one so early, but what better way to get into the game = D

All of you who don't like long posts... you can get over it and skim the hell out of it. I'll just direct you back here if you ask questions from your skimminess.

bird1111 wrote:

Dice Roll:
Original Roll String: 1d11 Fixed
1 11-Sided Dice Results: 4

vote: bird111 for divestment of accountability.

...This suddenly makes sense! Hooray! He voted him for not being responsible for his vote. = D Sweet, I can understand it.

Big words, Seoul. COunting with clapping, I get 27 syllables.

Thats weird I count only 10. Lawl.

*****

Ripley wrote:

Seol wrote:
divestment of accountability.

Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm impressed.

Honestly, this is like 1/1000th of a mafia tell, trying to buddy up to somebody, but I see nothing worse out there on the board right now.

FOS: Ripley

.....

FoS:LL

1st post of the second page.

*****

Don't you know that being suitably alarmed is 999/1000th of a scum tell? This just isn't your game.

Unvote, Vote: LuckayLuck for aparently seeing nothing else more suspicious. One should look harder, then.

My vote on Green Crayons is no longer random. I'm now voting him for accusing me of something ridiculous. Everybody was laying low, no sign of mafia anymore, I made a suggestion that I saw nobody as being mafia-ish so I pointed out a small thing. Now, he's voting for me because apparently there was something bigger.

You honestly think there's something more suspicious? What was it before what I quoted?

Not to mention being INCREDIBLY over defensive. I didn't notice this at the time, because I didn't see him vote or unvote, but it was already there.

Not to mention this explanation here.

*****

Eh, I took it more as a joke myself. Especially when he made the (what I took to be) sarcastic remark into something of a scum tell.

Bingo. I just got bored with my bird vote, and we're still only on page two with - as you have so aptly pointed out - little to go on, so a pointless vote shift was what I was feeling at the moment.

But hurrah, you helped me chalk up a suspicion tally under Echo (granted a small one). So it wasn't all for shits.

unvote, vote:LuckayLuck

for that little bit of overreaction on post.... 37.

I don't think the 3 pages of spam remark is a joke, it's what I hope for too, honestly, it's why I even riled things up by pointing out a 1/1000th scum tell. Someone needs to get the gears of mafia hunting rolling. I'm the type of guy who likes to poke at people to try to get a scum / townie tell.

In other news, I think that Echo419 demonstrated a 1/100th townie tell. CONTRARY to what you think actually GC. I think the more posts that happens, the clearer a pitcure and story is painted for townie observation.

So from this post would you say that the more someone posts, the more town they looked, or the more someone posts, the more of a read you can get?

*****

This is me checking in. I don't have much to say at the moment.

However, without sounding like a scummy counter-OMGUSer, I think that GC is rather agressive today, unlike the way he played in the last game he was in, werewolf 183 or something.

Perhaps he is simply trying to get the game on the road.

FoS:Rathyr

Pheh, I don't think that this Metagaming point holds water, as GC wasn't that agressive.

(Also had misunderstood GC from the beginning of this game = D )

See, as a townie, I want more pages of "spam" to be able to find mafia. The way it was put, the very nonchalant "I was hoping for three pages of spam" thing very minorly says "hey, I'm a townie trying to figure things out."

wait, what the? You knew this already.

NO! RED FLAG!

Spam is not going to help us find a clear picture of anything. Saying he was hoping for three pages of spam, he was responding to... GC saying something about we've reached two pages of random voting. This isn't even a townie tell in your sense, and you have warped your own logic.

*****

How do we know you're not a scumbuddy bolstering a partner early?

*****

How do we know you're not a scumbuddy bolstering a partner early?

...
FOS: IH



---
(author's note: I have thought about how to respond to this for a long time, and this post is the well thought out and deliberate response.)

Why did he FoS me for asking that question? Why was that a good response LL, as I never asked that question, I think.

I would also like to note that at this point, LL hadn't been jumping all over people about town tells and scum tells, confirming people left and right. I'm not sure of his alignment in Royal family mafia, but as soon as I am, I will cite the differences between the two, as there are many.

(I won't say anything else about it other than for metagaming purposes, so no one else should talk about it either, so we stay in the rules of THAT game)

*****

I always try to post, even if I have nothing significant to say, to maintain a presence in the game.
It appears to me that LL and GC are still attacking each other for relatively small reasons. Punctuation, who said what and what they meant by it, etc. It isn't those reasons in themselves, just that they don't have much backing. I suspect big fights from small reasons.
Sorry Seol. Wrong name.

If I would have been paying attention I may have said something about this. They may be attacking each other for small reasons, but the bigger the reaction, the more likely there is something to hide.

Seol, that's a really good analysis of what happened if I were to look at it from the outside. Amazing what one can do with "3 pages of spam" [disclaimer: this is what I meant as "spam" - 3 pages of pointing fingers around at small things to reveal intentions and such].

Time will tell.

Honestly, I throw up the word honestly at the beginning of the sentence way too often, and I think I only do it as townie upon quick reflection. Obviously, you're not going to believe me here but I'll be eliminating that townie tell about myself in future games. Thanks.

...........You only do that as townie on a quick reflection. We're not going to believe you here, but you'll be eliminating it in future games. Freudian slip? Humourous irony? 1/1000th of him knows. (lawl)

*****

My default game is one of complete disclaimature. I get all the information I have out on the board, unless I think I can use it to my advantage later on by tripping somebody up. I was telling the truth - I didn't think anybody else was more guilty than that statement. And in saying that, I was fishing for responses. Somebody has to fire the first gunshot, I chose to do so, it's my style. I usually start off with a controversial claim such as "I think this guy is townie" (with Echo) or "I think this guy is mafia" (with Ripley). And it worked, here we are into the land of discussion. Great!

But you didn't do that! You said "I think that Echo is just slightly more town than others"
That wasn't one of your big proclomations. It was just a little statement. I believe this was all started on you and GC jumping on each other for your fractions, one which GC was joking about.

*****

I don't believe third votes on a bandwagon on a game of this size are telling (in fact, I think that too many townies jump on that and get a townie lynched). I certainly don't think that using a random dice generator to generate a random vote is divestment of accoutnibility, it's a random vote. I don't think that saying OMGUS FOS is a tell to each side, I actually sort of think it's townie because it's a glaring neon capital letter OMGUS OMGUS LOOK AT ME I'M TYPING OMGUS AND DRAWING ATTENTION TO MYSELF FOR NO APPARENT REASON. Call that a 1/100th townie tell. Anyways, my game has been extremely straightforward thus far; attacking the 1/1000th scum tell with a FOS. I don't bother switching my vote for people on a 1/1000th scum tell.

WIFOM!

Scum wouldn't do that because they'd be drawing attention to themselves!
Maybe scum is doing that to get a "townie tell"

Post 66 was an excellent way to try to clear the confusion by Ripley.

Also, I don't personally think anyone's suspicious for posting something early with a "weak suspicious point" but I was showing GC the error in his logic.

I apologize for misunderstanding you GC!

2) I am always in two minds when a player that hasn't posted much, suddenly gives us all a break down/ run down of the game so far. More often than not, I have found that this type of post is there to sway the town that they are on the towns side, as subconsciously, when you read such a post, you feel it helpful, therefor catorgarising that player as town (Seol).
And to answer your question honestly Seol, yes, if I had spotted it but as it were on me and I obviously noted it, definately yes.
At this point, I have to
Vote: Seol

Errr, or perhaps thats his playstyle?

Unvote
Vote IH

IH, you need to believe more in the power of the townie tell. Also, this particular statement really hit me as...strange. As odd. I've got warning bells flashing in my head.

Quote:
You said he was accusing someone on a weak suspicion, which could be suspicious.
You then say that this in itself is a weak suspicion.
Therefore, wouldn't you just have called yourself suspicious?

It's such a circular argument which really goes nowhere. And if you come back and call me suspicious for calling your argument suspicious...


Also, this may or may not seem crazy to you, but I am going to now make a weird statement (believe me, this is well thought out and may or may not be used for a greater purpose). For the rest of day1, (barring something ridiculous, of course), I am going to assume that Green Crayons and Seol are townies.

It was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought he was doing something small by calling someone else suspicious for doing something small. Apparently he was not.

Seol's post 78 is nice.

That world of difference is non-existant the way I'm going to play. I am going to state my plan very clearly right now: I think that you are a townie. I will now treat you as a mason and assume that you are a townie. Now then Seol, now that I'm treating you as a mason, let me give you my views about GC:

Hey, you're trying to find scum / townie tells too! Cool! However, everything you've quoted about GC - it's not scum tell. It's townie tell. Really. I'm not going to tell you exactly what that townie is, because then people can fools me, but re-read it and think in your head "is this what a townie says?" and your answer will hopefully be yes.

GreenCrayons, I am extending my masonry offer to you as well.

Seol and GreenCrayons, if we can form a three-way-masonry here, we are going to be golden since you two are both pretty active posters which have given off townieish vibes to me. We can death star the mafia!

"I'm not going to tell you exactly what that townie is, because then people can fools me, but re-read it and think in your head "is this what a townie says?" and your answer will hopefully be yes. "

....... mmmmm

I believe I've found the true flaw in LL's playstyle, and why we can NEVER trust him to be town. This is why his spread sheet is useless. We can't get a good read off of him! If anyone brings anything up about him, "It's just his playstyle, how can we use that against him?"
If anything scummy is his playstyle, then is he always going to be town?

.....

confirm vote:LuckayLuck

*****

*****

*****

When I do it, it's not a scum tell.
When other people do it, it's a scum tell.
This is because I play differently.

I 've found enough for day 1 IMO, but I'm going to continue to reread.
I also believe I'll mark the posts I think are most significant (that I quoted) with either a different color, or something.

(Continues his reread)

[IH]

About The unvote vote thing, and attack on GC

All I can answer about GC is that I misunderstood him. I thought he was saying something entirely differrent, which was why I was going after him so hard. I eventually dropped it, in favor of something else I saw. If I ever accidentally unvote, and then revote the person I'm voting for, that means I'm REALLY not into the game, because I've forgotten who I have voted.

Mmmm, I'll also finish my PBP if you guys would like, but I probably will only do some more about LL, or something else I think is extremely scummy.

[IH]

^_^ Sorry guys I was trying to keep it short. I can just arrange things better and remember what I'm talking about when I post the quotes.

If I've gotten your PBP right, the main reason you're voting LL is because you can't get a read on him? In that case, I'd be more comfortable voting people who haven't really posted, since I have even less of a read on them compared to LL.

No no no. I'm voting LL for some things I found scummy.

1.That extremely jumpy over reaction about the 999th/1000th joke from GC.
2.Claiming that some things are scummy when other people do it, but not him. He has effectively given himself immunity.
3.I've seen quotes from people, and I agree, that says we can only trust's LL's playstyle if we know he is townie, but we can never know, because of number 2. How are going to know, if he disclaims most things as "not scummy for him because of his playstyle". Do you see what I'm saying?
4.My suggestion that he was bolstering a scumbuddy got an unexplained FoS from him.

[IH]

Oh and here's a prelim FOS: IH till we hear more from him. IGMYOY.

I presume this was from the end of open 4 ^_^

Welcome Vaughn. Please post.

[IH]

IH- What do you think of me linking you with Wolfsbane and Vaughn? What do you think the chances are of Wolfsbane and/or Vaughn being scum?
Is the Luckay vote just an attempt to get people off your back?

I AM OUTRAGED AND AM IN UR BASE KILLING ALL UR D00DS!

Actually, I'd like to know the reasons why (unless you believe that all three of us are scummy, and so we're a scumteam to you in that sense). Mmmm, I wouldn't say I've been getting townvibes, but I haven't been OH EM GEE SCUM! LYNCHORZ! I've gotten a mild scummy vibe.

No the Luckay vote isn't just an attempt to get people off my back silly M4yhem. I've outlined my reasons for voting him.

[IH]

I don't have any thoughts at the moment. But I don't think not taking the lead is a definite scum-tell. After all, I haven't taken the lead in over 90% of my games, and I wasn't scum in every one. However, I agree that misunderstanding people a lot is a scumtell, considering this isn't a newbie.

........Could you restate that without double negatives.

My brain is hurting.

[IH]

Gone til Sunday.

[IH]

I want an an LL post myself. Looing over Wolfsbane posts when I get home, as I seem to be skimming those most X_X.

[IH]

Can we have a votecount mod?

[IH]

I believe it's time for me to claim then.

Next post.

[IH]

No, I was seeing how people react.

I am Hansel, a mason, who is looking for his mason buddy, Gretel. Each night I submit one persons name to look for them.

[IH]

Also, if I make it alive....

HERE I AM GRETEL!!!

Cause I'm that subtle = D

Looking over the thread again.

[IH]

Vote: Seol

Any reason?

[IH]

Also, if everyone already knows they're innocent, all interactions with them are practically meaningless, so you're also denying yourself information. Masons should not claim needlessly early.

The interactions part is solved clearly by my mason partner not claiming (Assuming that they can search. If I'm the only searcher, then it'll be a little more difficult...) Also, I assume you were talking about Lowell? My claim was needful I believe.

[IH]

mmm. Some things from Wolfsbane, as I got around to reading his posts More.

Holy OMGUS Batman! Dodgy gets a third vote from Rathyr and slaps an FOS on him while convienently leaving his vote somewhere else. Who's trying to start the bandwagon here?
Then LuckayLuck comes along with the less subtle OMGUS on Green Crayons. It's getting ugly in Fairyland. I'll leave my vote on Dodgy for now...

...... You are trying to start a bandwagon on Dodgy here I believe.

So, you weren't trying to influence players' opinion of Rathyr in any way with that strange abbreviation? You would have been shocked and dismayed had someone placed a third vote on him after noting your increased suspicion?

the Abbreviation was "FoS" To be fair, Dodgy had criticized him for "Running to the wiki to find abrieviations"(Omgus)

Concerning my attack on Dodgy - I saw GC's post 35, where he says LL should try harder. I tried to find something scummier and I think I found it. I think FOSing and voting someone else during random voting is scummy - plus the OMGUS factor - Rathyr was voting Dodgy. It may not look like much of a case now, but at the time we were transitioning out of random voting and there wasn't much else out there that I saw.
I suppose it's just coincidence that you take issue with this and you are Dodgy's replacement?

He "Tried to find something scummier". How is FoSing and voting someone else during random voting scummy?

How much do you expect from me on page 2? There was no case (weak or otherwise), it was an observation. I'm suspicious of people who FoS during random voting. I wasn't calling for his lynch on the spot. Plus, I had already randomly voted Dodgy, so there was no vote change involved. I was merely pointing out behavior that I found scummy.

There was no case, but you're suspicious of him, and you were "Pointing out scummy behavior". If it's not a case, then what do you call it?

unvote, Vote:Wolfsbane

[IH]

Wolfsbane, you are now at lynch minus 2....

Claim anytime you feel it necessary.

What about an Echo and Masterchief prod, or have they been in the vicinity?

[IH]

Is that a hammah, or lynch minus 1?

[IH]

As to what I thought about the claim....

=====[]

[IH]

I would say we're now in Twilight BTW

[IH]

MY MASON BUDDY NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I want to hear more from Luckayluck, Lowell, and Green Crayon's myself. I feel that later in the day Luckay contributed nothing. Cause that's what he does.

[IH]

Who was Rathyr's replacement? I'm saying he's scum just from a tentative review of Wolfsbane's posts.

I'd say... CES would be a close second. Based only on Our lynched scums posts.

Reviewing other dead players posts.

[IH]

Vote:Vaughm, FoS:M4yhem

Based on our dead players posts. = )

[IH]

Holy OMGUS Batman! Dodgy gets a third vote from Rathyr and slaps an FOS on him while convienently leaving his vote somewhere else. Who's trying to start the bandwagon here?
Then LuckayLuck comes along with the less subtle OMGUS on Green Crayons. It's getting ugly in Fairyland. I'll leave my vote on Dodgy for now...

ONE:Wolfsbane uses Rathyr for a crap case on dodgy.

So, you weren't trying to influence players' opinion of Rathyr in any way with that strange abbreviation? You would have been shocked and dismayed had someone placed a third vote on him after noting your increased suspicion?

TWO:Wolfsbane is trying to protect Rathyr's image from the strange opinion influencing abbreviation.

Ripley, you say you don't have suspicions, but when I look back through your posts I see plenty of digs at Seol, plus some on Rathyr, and LL

. Sometimes you say the prolific posters seem town, sometimes you say they could be faking these arguments. You really do seem to have suspicions, but they aren't especially consistent and you aren't voting on them. I get the feeling you're just throwing stuff out there to see if something will stick.

(bolding mine)
THREE: Rathyr's name appears ONCE MORE. Rathyr wasn't exactly a "prolific poster" in this game I believe.

You seem to have a double standard here. You say Echo was probably busy, but Rathyr is scum for lurking.

FOUR:His name just keeps popping up, huh?

I can sort of see where you might have gotten the idea I was protecting Rathyr/Vaughn. You are wrong of course. I think your assumption that Rathyr is scum is flawed which makes your conclusion that I'm his scum partner invalid. He didn't seem especially pro-town because of the non-participation, but Vaughn seems completely different.

FIVE:This is what did it for me. = ) We know that Wolfsbane WAS scum. That would mean that the above is invalid.

= )

I also believe that we have a vig, and that is the only reason that Echo is dead.

[IH]

In case you missed the last page, Vaughn is at minus 1. You can hammer him scum if you confirm he's your buddy. = )

[IH]

This is the time for him to claim I believe. He could just as easily be scum laying low, or someone with limited access with connections from the scum. I think it's the latter, from mini 399

[IH]

FoS:Lowell

What about mini 399?

[IH]

Oh, he's the mod. I think it's 397 actually.

[IH]

Seriously. Claim or die.

Not only that, do you have any reasons WHY you think that CES and I are scum?

What do you think of my claim now that there is a confirmed innocent Gretel?

What do you think of the things I brought up concerning Wolfsbane and you/Rathyr?

[IH]

Vaughn, why do you keep attributing your wagon as a lurker lynch? = ( If you'd look where all the votes on you are from the first page of day 2.

[IH]

scumlist

Vaughn
M4yhem
Green Crayons

That is all for now.

I think that everyone should let LL =====[]

[IH]

Searching Mason.

[IH]

Lowell
CES
GC
LL

[IH]

Alright guys, claims are in order. Do it.

Lowell, you're up first.

[IH]

Please prod the frick out of lowell. = )

[IH]

So....

Lowell-Survivor
CES-Vig

Claim GC. I think I believe Lowell.... not sure about CES yet.

[IH]

Did you kill last night CES?

[IH]

LL, what were your results?

[IH]

......

I think that LL is paranoid. That would make sense with Little Red Riding hood. He could also be scum trying to narrow it down to a Lowell lynch. Do we know AND IT'S CONFIRMED, that there is 1 scum left? If there is, we should most definitely lynch the survivor (lowell) or else he won't have to win with the town, he can just lynch whoever.

[IH]

LL, you forgot an SK

and a survivor.

[IH]

eh, I'm not sure myself. I would have already voted if I was sure.

[IH]

When I woke up to the day's results and someone suggested claiming I knew I would be in trouble. And here's why: ONE OF THOSE ASSUMPTIONS IS NOT TRUE! From my role, there are either (a) only 2 scum and 1 cop, or (b) 3 scum and NO cops.

If there were three scum, town would have already lost Lowell. There's 5 alive. Don't be stupid.

Duh there's only 2 scum and a cop.

I believe I'm convinced.

Vote:GC

[IH]

unvote

[IH]

.....

FoS:LL

[IH]

Why do you think I unvoted GC?

He's pretty much jumping for a lynch at lylo....

[IH]

A survivor isn't pro-town. Stop trying to paint the role in that light, LL.

Yeah, but if he's a survivor, and CES kills wrong, town loses...

[IH]

Thanks for confirming your sanity LL. GC, who did you investigate?

[IH]

..... I'm going to go over the thread and then make my decision.
= | I don't wanna be endgamed....

[IH]

I've made my decision. (crosses fingers)

vote:LuckayLuck

[IH]

Well.... I wasn't sure the entire time, but LL's vibes and early posts were what did it. Even moreso was the godfather thing he brought up. That's what did it for me I think when he accused GC of being a godfather, and why he would choose to investigate me tonight.

Coupled with GC's innocent investigation on LL, then I was pretty sure that LL knew the setup, hence why he mentioned the godfather.

Not only that, I didn't believe his claim the whole time about little red riding hood. = )

Was GC paranoid?

[IH]

I wasn't sure if you killed or not CES. = ) I thought you might have realized town would have an extra day, and you no killed...

I wasn't thinking about unkillable though....

[IH]

Yeah, but the other two were goons. I think it was ok. = )