Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over

[wolfsbane]

Arbitrary

Vote: Dodgy

[wolfsbane]

Hello Rathyr and er...nice to see you again Echo (even though we weren't formally introduced )
Was it your idea to eat the guy with the werewolf related screen name? I'm still having nightmares over that death scene
Hope they cleaned up that cabin and buried what was left of me.

[wolfsbane]

Hey guys, forgive me for being English, sheesh!

FOS:Rathyr

for trying to create a bandwagon so early on.
Its always a supicious trate.

Holy OMGUS Batman! Dodgy gets a third vote from Rathyr and slaps an FOS on him while convienently leaving his vote somewhere else. Who's trying to start the bandwagon here?
Then LuckayLuck comes along with the less subtle OMGUS on Green Crayons. It's getting ugly in Fairyland. I'll leave my vote on Dodgy for now...

[wolfsbane]

Firstly

Unvote

Right, having read all and being an old man at this game, I noticed two things that alarm me.
1) GC wrote

seems like he's reaching for something to post simply so he can post something, which is what I've done a few times while scum.

This can be true but it can also apply to someone that has a mere vanilla town role that doesn't have the enthusiasm of a player with a night choice role.

2) I am always in two minds when a player that hasn't posted much, suddenly gives us all a break down/ run down of the game so far. More often than not, I have found that this type of post is there to sway the town that they are on the towns side, as subconsciously, when you read such a post, you feel it helpful, therefor catorgarising that player as town (Seol).
And to answer your question honestly Seol, yes, if I had spotted it but as it were on me and I obviously noted it, definately yes.
At this point, I have to

Vote: Seol

I know this is from way back, but you still haven't answered the allegations about your strange FOS on Rathyr which myself, Seol and maybe others have pointed out. It was a small point, but you avoided it and now jump back in and slap a vote on Seol for a post which you say "seems" helpful. Is it helpful or not and why?

Green Crayon's recent vote switch to Rathyr seems out of place. GC says Rathyr was fishing for opinions, but it looked more to me like he was poking GC a bit to see what kind of reaction he would get. The reaction didn't look too good.

[wolfsbane]

Ok, for obvious site probs, I have a lot to read, but to answer your question Wolf, as you said

Holy OMGUS Batman! Dodgy gets a third vote from Rathyr and slaps an FOS on him while convienently leaving his vote somewhere else. Who's trying to start the bandwagon here?

Firstly, my vote at that time was the usual starting random vote.
I didn't vote for Rathyr because it really didn't warrant it, I just

FOS'd

him to point out that he had given me a third vote for using my mother tongue, even if it was spelt in a slang way. Like I said, I'm English, everyone writes "cos" instead of "cause" when emiling friends and texting. Its hardly a reason to give me a third vote!
Question answered? I think so. And it was hardly a question anyway, I feel you are just picking on something very small so you can contribute to the game mate.
P.S. I really don't like people that don't have the initiative to use their own abreviations, but instead have to call on the wikki for help.
Try using your own brain mate, afterall, I invented a few of the wikki abreviations when we got this all going.

I wasn't the one giving you a hard time about "cos". I left my vote on you because you didn't answer my accusation about attempting to push a Rathyr bandwagon but not putting a vote on when the voting was still random anyway. It was a small point, but you still haven't answered it. Instead you are attacking me for voting you for voting for someone who was voting for you. Also, you're using the 'cos' thing to throw suspicion on me, even though I had nothing to do with it. I think a pro-town player would be more careful about flinging incorrect accusations around.
I like the abbreviation OMGUS and I think it described the situation well. Why are these abbreviations there in the wiki if I'm not allowed to use them? You inventing the abbreviations has nothing to do with my argument. I think they call that a red herring. The "use your own brain" I think is known as ad hominem.

[wolfsbane]

Wolf, how can you say

I left my vote on you because you didn't answer my accusation about attempting to push a Rathyr bandwagon

I have at NO time tried to start a bandwagon on Rath. I merely

FOS'd

him.
That does not constitute a bandwagon by any terms LOL.

So, you weren't trying to influence players' opinion of Rathyr in any way with that strange abbreviation? You would have been shocked and dismayed had someone placed a third vote on him after noting your increased suspicion?

I'm not trying to use the "cos" thing for any reason, apart from that of trying to explain my use of the term to those that had voted me for using it.
I think youre getting very defensive over something strangely small.
Now if that doesn't answer your question, I suggest you go whistle mate!

You weren't expecting an argumentative response after telling me to "use my own brain", stop using abbreviations, and calling my contributions useless? Yes, I get defensive when I log in and people are calling me stupid.
Your personal insults distracted me and I thought the "cos" stuff was directed at me as well, but now I see that it wasn't. Sorry about that.
You are correct. There was no question to answer – except maybe, “Would you have Finger Of Suspicioned Rathyr had he not been voting you?” – but there isn’t much point in hearing your answer to that. I guess what I wanted was a reaction. So instead of attempting to calm my suspicions or defend your actions you attack me for using an abbreviation. That is a scummy reaction in my book. It looks like you are trying to intimidate me to get me to back off.

[wolfsbane]

It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum. I think the spreadsheet of doom is bogus. LL acts scummy and the people who attack him are pro-town. It is hard to argue with that. I agree with whoever said that you can't bait with scummy behavior. If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference. Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore. There is one easy way to remedy this situation though.

I think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection. Why are these the same two players that LL chose for his wacky mason scheme? I don't see the connection between GC and Seol and why it helps us to think that they are both town. Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.

Unvote, Vote: Echo419

[wolfsbane]

Whoa... content!

Seol and GC, I think appear to me to be a couple townies drawn into a fight.

The original argument was a bit flimsy, but now everyone's tearing into each other, over posts that were part of that argument. It just builds on itself, and yet it isn't that productive IMO...

(italics mine)

Okay, I shouldn't have tried to recycle Seol's quotes. I wanted to talk about the post quoted above and saw that Seol had already found it. What I was trying to say is slightly different that what Seol was using the quotes for.
Here is a better explanation of my position.
Once, Echo says Seol and GC look like two townies as shown in the quote above. I interpreted Echo's "9/10 times it's two townies" statement as support of his GC and Seol are townies position, but I can't really prove what his intent was. The important difference is that Echo says "LL and GC are fighting over small things" not that they are townies fighting. When he talks about GC / Seol the wording is "two townies". That slight difference is what I found strange.

[wolfsbane]

This is what concerns me - you do seem excessively preoccupied with how other people view you, as opposed to forming views on other people.

Well, it is rather important.

I think concern for self-preservation is one of the scummiest things out there. Scum have to survive to endgame to win, so they tend to be more concerned about their image. Townies should be willing to risk their lives to expose the scum. Or, as a townie do you not consider it a win unless you survive until endgame?

[wolfsbane]

This is my take on LL's townie tells. I'm not going to quote his entire post because it would take me all day to get the tags right.

Townie Tell #1: Does not end up attacking anybody while worsening their relationship with people.

I disagree. He may have worsened his relationship with the mega-posters but he improved his relationship with the "too much to read" crowd.

Townie Tell #2 (Real): A scum does not have this soliloquy with himself. This is a VERY strong tell.

Maybe, maybe not. How do you know this? In any case, it's a one shot deal. Your future games will be filled with soliloquies. Are you sure you haven't already used this one up in some other game?

Townie Tell #3: Calls himself a hypocrite.

Yes, scum can do this to WIFOM

, but the context of this means he is not WIFOMing. It ends up that this is a really strong townie tell too.

Calling yourself a hypocrite looks like an appeal to emotion to me. Scum and town both do this, but it is bad play for town imo, therefore scummy.

[wolfsbane]

While we're on the subject we might as well get a prod on bird1111 as well. He seems to have slipped off the radar.

[wolfsbane]

Ripley, you say you don't have suspicions, but when I look back through your posts I see plenty of digs at Seol, plus some on Rathyr, and LL. Sometimes you say the prolific posters seem town, sometimes you say they could be faking these arguments. You really do seem to have suspicions, but they aren't especially consistent and you aren't voting on them. I get the feeling you're just throwing stuff out there to see if something will stick.

When someone asked why you weren't in the vote count you said it's not your responsibility. Somehow I expect a townie would answer, "really? we should get that fixed" It almost sounds like you actually had noticed it and weren't upset by it. Who benefits from an incorrect vote count?

This quote below where you try to deflect M4yhem's focus on you over to spectrumvoid rubs me the wrong way. Why shouldn't we be focusing on you?

Still, I suggest you have a read through, and if you get anything, even if it’s just a twinge, let us know.

Anyway, Ripley, don’t stop posting because you have nothing to say

I will let you know, you can be sure of that. Maybe that's enough of focusing solely on me now? I mean, I'm not the only one without suspicions. spectrumvoid found nothing despite her 4 readthroughs. She has voted but only to pressure a player to talk, not because she thought him scummy.

So, I'll drop my Echo vote in favor of an

unvote, Vote: Ripley

[wolfsbane]

When the first spreadsheet of doom was posted three players were rated 9.5: Echo, GC, and Seol. All of these players were attacking you. True, IH was also attacking you and did not get rated as townie, but that doesn't change the fact that every player who got a 9.5 was attacking you at the time.

If a player is rated 9.5 then he is an LL attacker
Echo is rated 9.5
Therefore Echo is an LL attacker

Whether this is significant is open for debate. I said it could be a tactic to get people off your back. It worked with Echo at least. Maybe you are a mafia genius and it's just coincidence.
What is the puzzle I was supposed to be figuring out? Why you left IH off the townie list? I have no way of knowing what goes on in your head. My guess is that random.org had something to do with it. Why don't you just tell us?

[no anger in above post - read with a mildly sarcastic tone]

[wolfsbane]

@Mayhem
Concerning my attack on Dodgy - I saw GC's post 35, where he says LL should try harder. I tried to find something scummier and I think I found it. I think FOSing and voting someone else during random voting is scummy - plus the OMGUS factor - Rathyr was voting Dodgy. It may not look like much of a case now, but at the time we were transitioning out of random voting and there wasn't much else out there that I saw.
I suppose it's just coincidence that you take issue with this and you are Dodgy's replacement?

[wolfsbane]

Echo should be out of this town. When he pulled a "sorry, I can't reply right now" when questioned by Seol, it became apparant that Echo's all fluff.

Maybe he was busy, rather than it being a scum master plan?

I find your case against Echo a little thin, Vaughn.

You seem to have a double standard here. You say Echo was probably busy, but Rathyr is scum for lurking.

I suppose it's just coincidence that you take issue with this and you are Dodgy's replacement?

No. I paid more attention to what happened to Dodgy than to the other players. That’s only natural, really. I still think it was a dodgy reason to vote someone though, and it fascinates me that you admit yourself that the case was weak. Are you sure you didn’t know that at the time?

How much do you expect from me on page 2? There was no case (weak or otherwise), it was an observation. I'm suspicious of people who FoS during random voting. I wasn't calling for his lynch on the spot. Plus, I had already randomly voted Dodgy, so there was no vote change involved. I was merely pointing out behavior that I found scummy.

What do you think of the idea that you are scum with IH and Vaughn, Wolfsbane?

I can sort of see where you might have gotten the idea I was protecting Rathyr/Vaughn. You are wrong of course. I think your assumption that Rathyr is scum is flawed which makes your conclusion that I'm his scum partner invalid. He didn't seem especially pro-town because of the non-participation, but Vaughn seems completely different.
As for IH, I am undecided. I think Echo, Ripley, and LL are all scummier.

Also, there is a 4 in my name. Please remember next time.

I apologize.

[wolfsbane]

Check out my post 212 for my stance on Ripley. Actually, it was his response to one of your posts that I didn't like. I find it hard to believe that he isn't suspicious of anybody. In his previous posts he has casted suspicion, but not voted. Now he says all his suspicions are calmed, forgotten. It seems a bit strange. I'm not too impressed by the newbie defense. Maybe he's telling the truth maybe not. Still, not letting the town know where you stand is not helping. We've got no voting record from him to look back on should he get NKed. I'm in favor of going after the anti-town behavior rather than picking out the townies from the scum by using voodoo.
I also didn't like the "vote count is not my responsibilty" thing. It's everybody's responsibility I would think.

What are these other things that make Echo town?

[wolfsbane]

Yes, I was trying to start a bandwagon on Dodgy. I am suspicious of the FoS because Dodgy could just have easily changed his vote. It looked like he was trying to start a bandwagon without being associated. Nobody agreed with me. So I dropped it. When I said "it doesn't look like much now" I wasn't admitting to having a weak case, only that since we have 11 more pages of evidence to go on a strange FOS isn't all that big of a deal. I don't know why we're still talking about this - Dodgy is long gone.
Somebody accused me of not taking the lead and being non-commital? I went after Dodgy, just no one followed. I've been against Echo for a while now. I went after Ripley when nobody else did.
In response to IH's critcism of my use of "strange abbreviation"...I was attempting to show the irony of Dodgy using abbreviations while Dodgy not allowing me to.

[wolfsbane]

Wolfsbane- you should probably defend yourself in some way. Or just, y'know, give up if you're scum.

I'd be fairly happy with a lynch at this stage, but Wolfsbane should obviously claim first and so forth.

Defend against what exactly?

[wolfsbane]

You astonish me, Wolfsbane. You're about to be lynched here- surely you want to avoid that if at all possible?

My vote is on you because of the weakness of your cases against ripley and echo. I just don't think anything you've said so far has been genuine. I get the feeling you're making cases for the sake of it- how do you respond?

I don't feel that the case against echo is so weak. If that is the problem then why are you lynching me rather than trying to sort that out.? I'm not convinced that Ripley-CES is the least scummy either. Have you got some information I don't? I'm suspicious of everybody to varying degrees and the fact that Ripley was wishy-washy when it came to going after anybody bothered me. I actually prefer CES's shameless bandwagon approach - except for the small fact that he's targeting the wrong person.
I guess I would have been doing the town a favor by just disappearing like Echo/Masterchief. Or maybe bailing out like Ripley cause it's just too hard. I never claimed to be the Paragon of Mafia Hunters. I tried to go after what I saw as scummy behavior and nearly everybody I attacked has gotten replaced and the replacements have come after me. Funny how that happened. And now I'm a hypocrite for making an emotional plea after bashing Ripley for his.
So anyway, I am Cinderella. I have a sort of lame power role. I can call my fairy godmother once during the game and become immune to nightkills while I'm at the ball that night.

[wolfsbane]

You astonish me, Wolfsbane. You're about to be lynched here- surely you want to avoid that if at all possible?

My vote is on you because of the weakness of your cases against ripley and echo. I just don't think anything you've said so far has been genuine. I get the feeling you're making cases for the sake of it- how do you respond?

I don't feel that the case against echo is so weak. If that is the problem then why are you lynching me rather than trying to sort that out.? I'm not convinced that Ripley-CES is the least scummy either. Have you got some information I don't? I'm suspicious of everybody to varying degrees and the fact that Ripley was wishy-washy when it came to going after anybody bothered me. I actually prefer CES's shameless bandwagon approach - except for the small fact that he's targeting the wrong person.
I guess I would have been doing the town a favor by just disappearing like Echo/Masterchief. Or maybe bailing out like Ripley cause it's just too hard. I never claimed to be the Paragon of Mafia Hunters. I tried to go after what I saw as scummy behavior and nearly everybody I attacked has gotten replaced and the replacements have come after me. Funny how that happened. And now I'm a hypocrite for making an emotional plea after bashing Ripley for his.
So anyway, I am Cinderella. I have a sort of lame power role. I can call my fairy godmother once during the game and become immune to nightkills while I'm at the ball that night.

[wolfsbane]

My role PM offers no explanation of why going to the ball would save me. The fairy godmother is flavor. I would need to PM the mod with my intention to use the power.

[wolfsbane]

I told y'all Dodgy/M4yhem was scum and look at the thanks I get