Mini 1398 - Game Over!

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: ICEninja

I'm going to go meta searching to get a feel for you again because this new style is way different from when we played together last time, but tying your wagon with obvtown Disturbed's wagon seems like a pretty good way to start out the game, don't you think?

And this is probably the only wagon with any potential whatsoever to hit scum right now which is sort of weird. The other three are almost certainly on town so they should disappate and try voting elsewhere so whatever wagon I decide to start will have good competition.

[Nachomamma8]

Looks like I don't know too many of you very well. Hello to the couple of you I've played with.

Can I request that anyone who lives OUTSIDE of the standard USA timezones let us know? Or if you do and tend to post at particularly strange hours let us know of that too? I hate waiting for someone to post at deadline or something only for them to be asleep until a weird hour of the night.

Also if anyone is brand new (a quick scan of join dates of those who have posted suggest this might be the case) let me know.

Of the votes already put down, Bacde's is the best so I'll sheep sheep.

Vote iamausername

.

Actually, I sort of like Ice's opening post, from the start to the end. He tries to figure out when people have strange timezones, figures out newbies and things so he's a bit more cautious in reading them, and actually adds to a wagon at RVS!

iceninja for saying a vote on him is "not good"

I thought you just got done saying that OMGUS was possible and not a big deal?

Sticking on iam for still not seeming genuine. 2nd fos = iceninja

I don't like how iam thinks iceninja is a good wagon.

I doubt you'd like anything iam does at this point.

Ah nevermind, I misread. I thought you had said that you didn't know that someone was voting for you, instead of you didn't know who was voting for you. I might buy that as a possible reason to lol.

lame

But to answer your questions directly, you were all like "Let's go hunt the scum", which seems weird because it goes without saying that we should be hunting and lynching scum. It kind of read to me like "Oh look guys, I'm so town."

similarly lame

So you doctored that quote. Meaning you set it up specifically for you to lie.
Find the post number.

'
jmo is probs town, but
>.>

I think one of jmo or disturbed is scum, and I'm pretty sure its Disturbed. Disturbed reads to me as "we caught a town doing something stupid, now everybody get him!", and then changes his vote to the most popular wagon when asked more thoroughly about his first read.

aaaaand you need to die
hard

Oh and for the record, my vote on jmo is about a gut read based on his responses, not all that semantics garbage.

oh god i am so sorry for ever voting you
hi town <3

Unvote, Vote: Bacde

other acceptable votes:
dunham
shamrock
(redrabbit)

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho did you notice that absta is also suspicious of me before you voted me? Because thats what it seems like to me.

Yes.
Why does this matter in the least?

[Nachomamma8]

Yep, just as I thought. Nacho was making sure other people suspected me before voting me. That's like scum behavior 101

hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Nachomamma8]

hey, bacde, did you notice jmo and absta were suspicious of disturbed before you voted?

[Nachomamma8]

hey, bacde, did you notice jmo and absta were suspicious of disturbed before you voted?

[Nachomamma8]

or you could always read page 6 and put your vote on Bacde!
that's probably the best bet.

[Nachomamma8]

His replacing out of the game seems a bit forced, mostly because we've told him that he should.

It seems genuine to me. If he was scum and intentionally lurking, then it's his strategy and he probably won't replace out no matter how much we ask him to. If the lurking is not game-related, then sure, he can replace out. It doesn't necessarily make him town, but it definitely doesn't make him scum.

[Nachomamma8]

His reaction is forced and also consists of just an appeal to emotion ("hahahahaha"). He asks me if I saw that other people voted for Disturbed earlier in the game as though that somehow weakens my case against him. That's just a distraction tactic. I voted Disturbed earlier in this game based on my own case, not on the case of others.

Your case on me was that I made sure someone else was suspicious of you before I voted, which is something you extrapolated from me saying that I noticed absta was suspicious of you before. So, I'm asking you if you noticed people voting for Disturbed before you voted him. If you didn't, then it'd certainly explain a lot of your play this game, but I would like an explanation as to why you ignored votecounts for forever and a half, and didn't express surprise when you learned other people were voting you. If you did, then you need to explain why the same answer to the same question makes me scum and you town. My using the absta case as my own was not your original point, so don't try to refine your suspicion now; the original accusation was that I made sure other people were suspicious of you before I voted you, and that made me scum. So let's try and address that before you make something else up.

If you thought it was a distraction tactic, then why did you dodge my question instead of point it out as a distraction tactic and explain why it is one? Better yet, you could have just called my question unreasonable, given a reason why it was unreasonable, ANSWERED IT, etc.

@ICEninja: What about Nacho besides his townread of you makes you think he is town? He has, until recently, been lurking.

You tried to say I was lurking before, and someone already corrected you and told you I was V/LA. The mod has said, from the start of the game, that I was V/LA. Why do you keep ignoring it?

[Nachomamma8]

what do you mean "refine my suspicion"? I've been explaining why you are scum, and its ok to have more than one reason. And the two reasons of "wait for suspicion to be ok" and "use someone else's case" pretty much tie together.

Refine your suspicion as in you attack me for doing one thing, and then when I call bullshit on it, you skip around and accuse me of something else. It's okay to have more than one reason, but having a second reason doesn't mean you can neglect backing up the first.

Did you seriously just admit that you were using absta's case as your own?

Quote any place where absta or I suspect you for the same reason.

I did answer your question, by the way, in my last post.

If you did, then you need to explain why the same answer to the same question makes me scum and you town. My using the absta case as my own was not your original point, so don't try to refine your suspicion now; the original accusation was that I made sure other people were suspicious of you before I voted you, and that made me scum. So let's try and address that before you make something else up.

there isn't much to townread you, but there is a whole lot to scumread you.

how does this work?

[Nachomamma8]

Seems like a slip to me. "My using the absta case as my own"

Was that not the second point you brought up against me?

And I don't see where I skipped around your points? I've been addressing them, so don't act like I'm not.

I'm not really interested in defending me being town right now. I'm much more interested in lynching scum you.

Hmmm.

[Nachomamma8]

I originally voted Bacde for his attacks on Ice, which was suspecting him of what was pretty much OMGUS when he had just got done calling it null, and his Disturbed/jmo false dichotomy. Saying that he found jmo town and disturbed scum but overall found the argument to be scumvtown felt to me that he was posturing to push jmo for scum after Disturbed flipped, which was especially scummy because he went for one popular mislynch (disturbed), while defending the other (jmo), but allowed for an easy flipflop after the first mislynch. Lately, it's more for his latest push on me. I think his assumption that me noticing you suspected him before I voted him means that I was making sure other people suspected him before I voted him is unreasonable, I find his initial refusal to answer my question to him (which he asked me originally) cagey, and the answering without answering bullshit in his most recent response similarly cagey. I don't like how he tagged on the "Nacho is using the absta case as his own" bit after he dodged the first question because it's obviously inaccurate and seemed like he was squirming after I called him out on his original bullshit point. I don't like how he keeps forgetting that I've been V/LA, and instead of admitting that he's wrong, he attempts to save face by finding a new way to call me scum afterwards.

[Nachomamma8]

Looking for the third scum? No town is that confident.

ummmmmm

[Nachomamma8]

i think shamrock is probably scum.
no idea who the partner is
hmmmmm

glad jabberwock replaced in, though
and glad iam is back!

[Nachomamma8]

Never mind, early to bed.

early to rise and hammer scum?
sounds good to me

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah hey duders ICEninja is the scum.

I hope this wasn't the promised post.
I really, really hope it wasn't.

[Nachomamma8]

bacde is town.
i absolutely hate to say it, but bacde is probably town. in any case, we're not lynching him today so please don't talk about lynching him today.

Unvote, Vote: Shamrock

[Nachomamma8]

Bacde's case on Nacho is hella dumb, but there's no scum motivation behind it. scum don't just randomly bail on a popular wagon to bullheadedly attack one of the most experienced players in the game against massive resistance on all sides. that is very much the behaviour of a town player who is convinced they've caught scum and can't understand why no one else sees what they see.

That's what I thought until he voted Shamrock.
it was the shamrock vote that got me
but now that he's claimed, I agree.

[Nachomamma8]

bacde is town.
i absolutely hate to say it, but bacde is probably town. in any case, we're not lynching him today so please don't talk about lynching him today.

Unvote, Vote: Shamrock

Massive read change on me (with minimal reasoning) after votes start leaving me? Does this

NOT

look like scum to anybody else?

tunnel so hard mother fuckers want to kill me
that shit cray

[Nachomamma8]

Town. He's been doing his own thing for a while, which I like, and he's been doing some things that are pretty stupid for scum but completely sensible for town and so I'm only a tiny bit paranoid of him because I always am.

[Nachomamma8]

why do you think the switch makes me scum?

[Nachomamma8]

You claim to have found reasoning for Bacde being town that Username pointed out. So I'm just wondering why you didn't switch sooner. If you thought he was town, why did you wait for him to claim before pointing it out?

As soon as I started to have doubts, Jabberwock replaced in and made a fairly strong push against Bacde with Bacde throwing that weird vote on Shamrock, which made me doubt my doubts. So I hung back a little bit to form a better read on him, and claiming did a lot for that read. It's one thing to stay stubborn for as long as possible as scum, but when you're run up to L-1 and it's claim time, generally you start looking to change up your play a bit and put forth a last resort. Bacde had the bodyguard claim, which is NOT a good claim for scum to make so early, and he didn't drop his scumread of me even a little bit, despite the fact that he acknowledged it was a major cause of people attacking him, and despite the fact that he didn't really have anything new to bring to the table. Also, it's a huge plus getting him in a claim today as opposed to tomorrow where he could talk with his scumbuddies about a fakeclaim overnight, and it settles the Bacde situation today as opposed to letting him live longer to be mislynched later.

feeling absta as a scumbuddy right now, with mirhawk/iam as possible thirds.
would like to hear more from all of them about scumreads though.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand the bodyguard thing, though. Why is that a bad claim for scum? Ice actually argued it would be a safe claim to make and I agreed, mind elaborating on that point?

if there's another PR claim, he dies before they do or else he is lynched, no exceptions
it also implies that town has a lot of power elsewhere, and it leans against a mafia roleblocker, so "I protected him and nothing happened" is an excuse that won't fly at all ever
so, if scum, he won't live long

Why is absta scum?

wait on this, waiting for absta to crush my doubts before pursuing this further.

[Nachomamma8]

Hrm. Yeah if Shamrock doesn't post by tomorrow I definitely wouldn't mind to wake up and read his scum flip.

i would
need a little more time

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why the iaaun read flip?

Done waiting.
VOTE: Shamrock

it wasn't exactly a read flip
i was considering your point
he's still pretty town though

[Nachomamma8]

bacde is town, ice is town, disturbed is town, jabberwock is town, jmo is town, melmond is town, iamusername is town
dunham might be scum, cheery probably isn't scum, absta probably is
we'll develop stronger reads for tomorrow, but i feel pretty good about those townreads
except maybe melmond

[Nachomamma8]

HAMMER AWAY
fuck claims since shamrock is a lurking fuck bastard

[Nachomamma8]

bacde is town, ice is town, disturbed is town, jabberwock is town, jmo is town, melmond is town, iamusername is town
dunham might be scum, cheery probably isn't scum, absta probably is
we'll develop stronger reads for tomorrow, but i feel pretty good about those townreads
except maybe melmond

MIRHAWK
that's a scum

[Nachomamma8]

HAMMER AWAY
fuck claims since shamrock is a lurking fuck bastard

That's crap. There's a week til deadline, what if it's a PR? We'll probably be getting a replacement, so hold up.
I take back the nacho-townread, he's null.

couple things.
1) So, we already have a PR claim that many people have announced that they dislike. I'm sure people wouldn't really like Shamrock's PR claim either, so we would have two scummy-looking claims at the end of Day 1, and approximately three days or so to create a wagon out of nowhere and lynch someone. It will probably be a mislynch that we will look back on and call stupid, but we couldn't stop the lynch because we needed a lynch. So then, with a stupid mislynch and someone killed overnight that is not any of our two PRs, what do we do? Leave them alive another night, let them survive until LyLo? And then figure out which one of them is scum? No, that will probably give us lower chances of winning than if we lynched Shamrock the PR right now >.>
2) Shamrock is not a PR. Look at how active he was in Dresden Mafia when he was essentially a glorified VT (but thought he was a doctor). Is there really any reason why he would lurk so hard as a PR in one game while playing a PR in another? No. Especially considering his end of the game comment in dresden (the i got a VT bit) shows that it's a role he doesn't care much to play, so his lurking here probably means VT or scum.

so yes, fucking hammer him

@absta:
no

[Nachomamma8]

Yet is insisting that "other people" dislike my claim here:

OTHER PEOPLE
not me
OTHER PEOPLE

1)Shamrock will claim PR

no, i am going through a worst case scenario IF SHAMROCK CLAIMS PR

2)Neither PRs will die at night if Shamrock claims PR

WORST CASE SCENARIO

3)Only one of me/Shamrock is scum

worst case scenario
if both of you are scum, then cool, hammer shamrock now

How can he make those three assumptions without outside knowledge?

Assumption 1: How would I know with outside knowledge? If I told Shamrock to claim PR if he was wagonned? But now I am pushing Shamrock to be hammered now, and not give my scumbuddy with a fakeclaim a chance to claim. Why would I do that?
Assumption 2: How would I know as scum? You're a bodyguard, right? Which means that you could successfully protect someone and die overnight?
Assumption 3: Okay, let's assume that I'm making this assumption. And I am pushing to lynch Shamrock. And I lynch Shamrock. He flips scum. Now you are town and I cannot push you because of my assumption. So...?

you say that I am making assumptions that I am not
you say that I have outside knowledge to be making this assumptions
but that knowledge doesn't help at all

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho - Actually, why are you refusing to answer my question?

because my reads will change depending on what shamrock flips and what happens during the night
there's no reason for me to explain my secondary and tertiary reads now

[Nachomamma8]

Will not read Rob13's post now, but I plan to in the future when I have more patience.

I explain why I disagree and feel his claim is fake in post 260.

Even if you think his claim is fake, he is still not the lynch for today. Even him being scum would the scum's NK options, and considering we haven't mislynched yet, there's no reason to worry about LyLo, so we can still hunt for partners today. He is an incredibly bad lynch for today and I would rather people stop bringing him up and trying to lynch him.

What is scum Bacde going to do? Claim VT and eat the lynch?

When the alternate wagon is on his lurking scumpartner, then claiming VT is probably the optimal play. Scumpartner gets replaced for lurking so hard, competent player takes his spot. If we're not arguing scumBacde would make optimal plays, then no, I don't think he would claim Bodyguard. Bodyguard is an uncommon role and an uncommon fakeclaim; it's much more of a gambit than claiming a more common role because you don't know how people will react. Weak scum players are not normally good at fakeclaims, and there's no reason to assume that Bacde would play how he has been playing for as long as he has and then bring out a good fakeclaim.

If he claimed VT he would have been hammered. Regardless if he was town or scum. Simple.

this also isn't so simple.
if you claim VT, it's not an instant lynch.

The nightkill is making me definity think jmo town though, he had his vote on disturbed the whole way through day 1, and if he would then go and nightkill him, it would be a waste of their cheif suspect.

Dangerous reasoning. It's called a scumteam for a reason, and a scumpartner choosing who to kill and jmo going along with it is not outside the realms of possibility.

@Hawk - Is it true that Bodyguards can't be with doctors?

They can be; they very rarely are. If there is a doctor in the setup that hasn't claimed yet, they should most definitely do so.

Jabber just spent an extensive amount of effort buddying up to me. This feels sketchy as hell, as since there was no pressure on me what-so-ever, the only reason I can think of someone would want to do this is to continue to get me to follow along with their reads.

still liking ICE for town.

It wouldn't be too shocking if Melmond flipped scum, but I would rather followup on this for now:

Vote: absta

[Nachomamma8]

They can be; they very rarely are. If there is a doctor in the setup that hasn't claimed yet, they should most definitely do so.

I'm actually not so sure about this. If there is a doctor in town (which there usually seems to be), then so long as Bacde doesn't make it to lylo it doesn't matter. He WILL be lynched when the doctor later claims or is killed. I would prefer either lynching Bacde without the need for a counter claim, or just holding off on lynching him than sacrificing a town PR for it. Unless said doctor is one of our useless lurkers, in which case go for it. I wouldn't mind seeing, for example, Melmond draw the NK.

I would like Jabberwock's opinion on this. I will think on this a bit more when I'm not tired as hell, but I *think* it would be optimal for a doctor/alternative protective role to be outed now as opposed to later.

[Nachomamma8]

this is an excellent catch and i can't believe i didn't notice this myself.

why else do you think jmo is scum?

Cheery Dog seems a little wierd in this game too, in the last game i was in with him, he was a lot more aggressive.

this isn't a good basis for a scumread. dig deeper.

[Nachomamma8]

why else do you think jmo is scum?

total lack of scumhunting, mostly. also post 252 is pretty bad in light of Shamrock's flip.

When momentum is coming down on your partner like a sledgehammer, it seems like a bit of a poor time to bring out the chainsaw.

would like to see rob's scumreads that aren't based on bacde flipping scum

[Nachomamma8]

There's no Vig, there was only one NK.

@Ice & Bacde - Why are you two talking about Vigging?

Why do you think mafia would talk about vigging at this point in time?

@Nacho - Actually, why are you refusing to answer my question?

because my reads will change depending on what shamrock flips and what happens during the night
there's no reason for me to explain my secondary and tertiary reads now

Explain your vote on me and answer my question please.

I won't until you put a vote down.

Shamrock's six posts were not bad enough to warrant not waiting for a claim, in my opinion.

So what's your read on me calling for people to lynch him without one?

Second, I think that he voted Shamrock in part to try to signal to him to get his ass in thread if he was reading but not posting. If Shamrock had gotten in thread early when it was only Bacde's vote and started contributing, I don't think he would have been lynched.

But you're still not answering the why. Why would he signal with a vote? Why wouldn't he signal how most people do and just tell him to get in and post?

If he had been actually scum-hunting, it wouldn't look bad at all.

Here's a very key point that we disagree on. Scumhunting doesn't always look pretty. I liked that he kept posting even after people said he looked terrible for doing, how he kept posting on it while we were lynching Shamrock, and basically never let it go because it shows that he has conviction in his read, and I don't think it makes sense for him to be that stubborn as scum.

Mod, prod Nacho?

So all of your content lately has been "Nacho, why do you think I am scum? Nacho, why aren't you posting?"
Do you think I am scum? If so, why aren't you voting me? If not, why are you so fixated on me?

[Nachomamma8]

Good to know I wasn't going insane with the original Bacde scumread, at least. Still don't like absta, though.

Early game there isn't a whole lot to look at. There's a weird push on jmo (where if he believes in OMGUS, he's scum), but he ends up dropping that, going after disturbed, but that doesn't go well and that's where things get a little interesting. Then, there's this:

@Dun

- I agree with some parts of it.

I agree with your post #124.

UNVOTE:
What do you think of Bacde?

<snip>

---

None of this sounds scummy. Why do need the answer to this?

Never said it was scummy, just wondering if it was intentional.

Wait, if it's not scummy, why did you bring it up?

Shamrock seems like he's pretending to be surprised. Instead of just "why did you bring it up?", he adds the unnecessary beginning part to make it seem like he's genuinely caught something.

---

Classic Dunhamganger.

This is an interesting interaction between Dun and Mirhawk. Not sure of how I read it yet.

This seems fake. Will be keeping an eye on you.

This is right before the whole bacde/me shitshow, so it's likely that absta as scum wouldn't really be sure that a Bacde wagon would be forming shortly after. Now, absta had been pretty aggressive with his vote up until this point, so it seems strange that the one time he decides not to be, it's when he's attacking two scum at the same time.

@Nacho

Saying that he found jmo town and disturbed scum but overall found the argument to be scumvtown felt to me that he was posturing to push jmo for scum after Disturbed flipped, which was especially scummy because he went for one popular mislynch (disturbed), while defending the other (jmo), but allowed for an easy flipflop after the first mislynch.

I noticed this as well.
Your reasons are good and I believe your town.

This is one of those things that made me twinge a little bit, I have to be honest. It's cool when people call me town and all (I love it, in fact), but these seemed to be calling me town in a way that would get me to trust him more. And I mean, it totally worked. I figured that he didn't mean to buddy; I was just being crazy. But when we're revisiting the scumBacde revelation, part of me doesn't wonder if since absta was being pushed to bus and had a useless partner on the side, if he didn't want to buddy up to me so he could have a strong ally?

Bacde is obvscum. Let's see if this head can find our notes.

jmo is very likely Town. And we have Townreads on the full Bacde wagon, funnily enough--we're looking for the third scum at present.

Why is Hawk town?

Also, that's bs. Looking for the third scum? No town is that confident.

This... also seems strange. You come in, peg both scum (and absta agrees with both reads, remember), and he pulls something like this. It doesn't seem a town reaction to having a shitty useless slot replaced with someone who is actively pushing on your top scumread and someone who you've suspected for most of the game.

Well i've just learned that bodyguards are usually town. If he's alive tomorrow we can make a decision on wether to lynch him or not.

I forgot about Shamrock... I'll vote him if he looks more scummy than IceNinja in my re-read.

"I've just learned bodyguards are usually town." What exactly did you mean by this, absta?
And he says he'll vote Shamrock if he looks scummier than ICE in his reread, but when his reread is done, he...

UNVOTE:
IceNinja seems town although i'm noticing quite a bit of fence sitting coming from him (he mentions that he's "unsure" a lot).
---

Shamrock is L-2, i'll let the replacements talk before voting him.

...doesn't. Instead he seems like he's waiting for the replacements to slip up somehow so he doesn't have to vote Shamrock in the end.

@Jabb - Back off Bacde for today. Question his reads tomorrow.
You look worse for that push.

still chainsaw defending bacde against you, and I have no idea why he would do something like this as town.
why does he care if you question his reads today? would he rather have more time to coach him or something...?

Sorry for prolonging this.

VOTE: Shamrock

Again, strange.

Finally, there's his latest "Nacho, where are you? Why are you voting me? Why are you voting me?". He doesn't have a scumread, which is obviously a problem. But he isn't really doing anything to develop one.

His interactions with the other way around (Bacde-him, Shamrock-him) aren't exactly so beautiful either; Bacde calls him town a shit ton and yet for some reason absta ends up below jmo on his master list, and Shamrock distances from two people without voting them (Bacde and Absta).

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Bacde

[Nachomamma8]

DAMN SON

[Nachomamma8]

good work absta
sorry for suspecting you

[Nachomamma8]

I figured he was vig for his chit chat with jabberwock at the end of the day yesterday after I saw the night's results.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Jabberwock might be the reason your team lost. I thought you did an excellent job deflecting my pressure; I was pretty sure I had you pegged as scum for a while, but you stubbornly calling me scum for forever was giving me doubt until Jabber replaced in and renewed the fire. But then you claimed bodyguard, threw me off again, and I wasn't really much use after that.