Mini 365- Thinking Mafia - Game Over!

[Pink Princess]

Return huggle: Twomz

I'm back, but now I have the flu (), advance apologies if I'm not coherent or contributive (contributive? I hope that's a word). Erm, did I miss the random vote phase?

Random Vote: bloojay

[Pink Princess]

oh! bloojay=macaholic. Hi mac.

[Pink Princess]

I'm feeling a bit better, my thoughts on the last few posts:

Uh Arafax, you're scummy for trying to call lack of participation due to having the flu suspicious. And it's not shady that Mert is moving and has limited access? If it's scummy to have limited access for a valid reason, you should probably call everyone on it, not just me - and don't forget those who were away for the weekend and not posting, too, including yourself. Nerdis.

Elais, your defense of Pink Princess is noted

Ah, Elias, your calm, cool logic and wise decision-making skills are noted.

I'm going back for a readthrough, I'll post my thoughts later today.

[Pink Princess]

In the language I speak, when you use quotation marks it means that you are quoting someone....I used quotation marks because she said that she infact did have the flu.

Which is fine, if your intention was to quote me, but since the words you "quoted" were different than the words I typed, I'm not suprised no one took it as a quote.

Basically, I agree with Bloo, Elias and mert on the whole quotes discussion. I read Arafax as trying to cast doubt on my "sickness." I see that's all cleared up now, and I don't want the focus of the game to be on grammatical issues.

I still need to go back for a read-through. ( ) But at this point, I certainly will agree that the non-participators at least need to let us know they're still part of the game.

[Pink Princess]

@ Ara: I thought I posted some content in my last 2 posts. I will agree was guilty of not doing a re-read and posting a full opinion, however. Soon to be rectified. Keep reading.

although I don't appreciate Princess posting only to say "oh woe is me"

Or posting to let everyone know why my participation would be low for a few days...is that really an accurate representation on your part?

especially when his reasoning was "for having an avatar that frightens me a little"

i'm_innocent didn't say this...Lowell said this. Mistake or misrep?

i'm_innocent is posting some major WIFOM. Generally useless and confusing arguments, in my opinion. Mert has a good argument about the whole initial vote thing in Post 57. I get the impression of odd paranoia over votes on him in the beginning phases of the game.

I do find it interesting that Colonel posted immediately afer being called on lurking. Strikes me as an intentional lurker.

Where are you Lowell and Rosso?

Unvote

my random Bloo vote.

[Pink Princess]

I'm usually suspicious of those who intentionally lurk because I think that it's potentially scummy. (I'll note that I'm not alone in this opinion, lurking is often considered a scumtell) I also think it's pro-town to participate. How else do we get a read on you or get your (potentially valuable) opinion? So, in a nutshell, I actaully

do

have a reason casting suspicion in your direction.

[Pink Princess]

Please add a "for" in the last sentence, after reason and before casting.

[Pink Princess]

To Colonel: Sorry I didn't answer your question. I generally don't lurk, and I generally post even when I have nothing to say. I'm an overposter, to be truthful. So I've never really been in the nothing to say so I'm lurking situation. Logically, though, posting when called on lurking is the normal thing to do.
I went into the lurking diatribe because I wanted to be clear that I wasn't just throwing suspicion on you for no reason. I agree, at this phase in the game, lurking not necessarily a big whoop, and it doesn't always spell scum, but I always think intentional lurking is worth noting. I don't think it FoS or voteworthy, just worth notation.

so I'd additionally like to say that I'm glad you're feeling better, and I'd like to apologize for making a disparaging comment about you being sick.

That was nice. Thanks.

[Pink Princess]

I'm not really sure where I want my vote for now. I am leaning towards an omg vote, (for craplogic, a lot of WIFOM and some slight paranoia over votes) but a major weakness of mine is telling the difference between newbie and scum. I get those mixed up.

Kurtz, on the other hand, seems to be both lurking and sucking up <snip> (btw: yes, I'm aware that I was also accused of lurking... but for some reason I'm less suspicious of that...)

Uh? So you are voting someone for doing the same thing you were doing? I'm not really buying that as valid.

[Pink Princess]

Yeah, as PP notes, it could be just being a newb, but even newbs can think things through a little, and I see very little of that in his posts.

Good point. I guess bad play is bad play, newbie or not.


I'm interested to hear what omg has to say.

[Pink Princess]

(Baby is me, by the way. Scumchat name.)

I'm relatively convinced by omg at this point. I'm willing to buy newbie/misunderstanding. His explanations strike me as genuine.

Also, ces...IGMEOY. You seem to be liking bandwagons a lot this game, which is a little odd to me.

To save me the trouble of metagaming, is the bandwagon madness not normal CES play?

Lowell's last post bothers me. I'd like to hear more out of him.

[Pink Princess]

Yeah, my post is totally missing. I can re-post a similar post after this one, for all who are interested.

For this post, however, I'll mention that I posted this missing post around 5:00 pm (EST). Not only is my post gone, bloojay's post, (which was right above mine) - the one I was responding to and quoted in my post - is also gone. Something wierd happened here.

[Pink Princess]

The missing post, as close as I can get it the the original:

The first quote is quoted from bloojay's 9:00 post, but it was was also in bloojay's missing post, only it was worded "I don't know, I have never played with CES, is it?"

Start of post -

I dunno, is it? I've never played a game with him.

Oh, I misread you earlier in the game.

Also, ces...IGMEOY. You seem to be liking bandwagons a lot this game, which is a little odd to me.

I thought you were saying it was odd because it was out of character for CES. You were just saying it's odd. Got it.

Blast. I thought I had a lead...
End of post.

That's all. Nothing really of consequence.

[Pink Princess]

yeah, I noticed that too. but thankfully, i was able to basically re-create mine.

Yeah, apparently it's happening in other games too...wild.

[Pink Princess]

Elias, you seem to follow whatever wagon is happening at the time. You followed on the omg wagon (twice, I think), and now the Lowell wagon. Seems a bit shady. Please comment.

[Pink Princess]

i actually was the second to vote on him both times. making the vote count two does not constitute jumping on a wagon.

Slight correction. On the first omg wagon, you were the third vote.

Anyway, I didn't mean to accuse you of jumping on wagons necessarily, I meant to say that I get the impression of you following other's suspicions instead of having your own. That's what I'm curious about. Although, I do notice that you pointed out Colonel's lurking as an orignal point, so maybe my impession is weak.

[Pink Princess]

While I'm not in the lynch-all-lurkers school of thought, I definately think that pressuring a lurker to participate in the game is a pro-town move.

Reasons for your vote on Arafax, omg?

[Pink Princess]

CES - so what specifically are you calling hypocrisy in this game, and therefore not scummy?

[Pink Princess]

My closest example to hypocrisy in a scum game is someone lurking to the max and then voting someone else for lurking.

I assume that's what CES was talking about as hypocrisy and not scummy in this game, and I'm really interested in hearing his thoughts on that.

Annoyance

Vote Lowell

for complete lack of contribution.

[Pink Princess]

Unvote

pending contribution.

I think that the four votes turned out to be the perfect amount of pressure to get some participation - apparently it worked. I don't know if I would have necessarily put the

fourth

vote on, but if it caused Lowell to rejoin us, I'm content.

[Pink Princess]

PP gave a good example. It's the kettle calling the pot black.

And you don't find that scummy? If not, why not?

[Pink Princess]

I don't think I'll join the mert wagon.

That's all.

[Pink Princess]

Waiting for mert.

[Pink Princess]

Still not interested in joining the mert wagon.

Vote Colonel Kurtz

[Pink Princess]

Love my vote on Kurtz.

[Pink Princess]

Also, directing the doc is scummy, please don't do it.

Reminding the doc that the cop would appreciate protection is scummy?

I'd say that there's a 50% chance that mert is scum... and if he's scum that Arafax is one of his scumbuddies, who was trying to throw him under the bus, but now he's trying to difuse the bandwagon in a gambit that will give the scum a "confirmed" player for the first few days of the game.

1. You think there is a 50% potential of no cop in the game?
2. If he's scum, Arafax is his buddy and trying to throw him under the bus? What? What makes Arafax the scum out of everyone else on the wagon, and why would he sacrifice his buddy for no reason? (it's not like mert was going down, it was the third vote on a weak wagon) If A is scum, B is his partner with no real reason sounds like a set up. Weak.

Your reasons for joining the mert wagon were weak, your reason (?) for joining the Arafax wagon is even weaker and it feels like you're giving yourself a free ticket to jump on the Kurtz wagon if that moves faster than the Arafax wagon.

Twomz's latest post bothers me. Big huge

FoS Twomz

.

I like RA's latest post, that's the same feeling I got from Kurtz when he leapt on the wagon. The trying-too-hard-to sound legit reason plus his position on the wagon make me suspicious. Hence my vote.

CES is bugging me with the wagon joining and no contribution whatsoever. Let's have some content here.

That is all.

[Pink Princess]

There is a difference between a bad reason and a reason that sounds really contrived. Plus, mert's posts were generally chock full of conent and opinion.

Correction to my above post: Please change "your reason for joining the mert wagon" to "your reason for voting mert"
My point remains the same.
Thank you.

[Pink Princess]

and we all know what twomz will claim.

Scum?

[Pink Princess]

What's w/ this "no cop" thing P_P? You don't think there's any chance that there's not another cop? Or that if there is another cop, he's smart enough not to just counterclaim because there could be 2 cops, or he could be scum and that's what he wants him to do?

Yeah, there could be two cops, but that obviously doesn't negate the fact that mert is cop in that scenario. If mert is, in fact, scum, it would be silly for the real cop not to counterclaim and get us a scum, in my opinion. And I don't believe there is not cop in this game. Al bases covered.

But that wasn't the main point of my post. My main point was the craplogic about Arafax "throwing his partner under the bus" and the if A is scum, B is his partner with absolutely no logic behind it. (is there an official name for that ploy in the wiki?)

Hey Red, what's your opinion on a Kurtz wagon?

[Pink Princess]

Unvote Kurtz, Vote Twomz.

Feel free to peruse my reasons in Post 258 and 270 at your leisure.


To Arafax: I, for one, don't need to hear your claim, I'm not interested in joining your wagon.

[Pink Princess]

Checking in.
Like my vote on Twomz. I'd definately like to hear some more opinions on the latest developments.

That's all.

[Pink Princess]

Sure thing Twomz.
My reasons are in Post 258 and 270.

I also think that the defenses of "I'm always town" and "Would I really do that if I were scum?" are weak, and certainly not convincing enough for an unvote.

[Pink Princess]

When the "cop" in question hasn't been proven yet, had been the main lynch candidate for most of the day, and he suggested that HE should be protected... then yes.

Good point.

Besides, it's more of a feeling than a logical conclusion.

I thought since it was followed by a vote it was more of a conclusion than a feeling.

So, you spend a whole post discussing how "scummy" and "suspicious" i am... then FOS me?

Yes, is that a point against me? If so, I don't get it.

If i remember right... it's cause i agreed w/ Rosso. So agreeing w/ someone is a weak reason now?

I generally think so, if the reason you are agreeing with is weak (which I thought it was, and Rosso himself called it a "big hunch") and you have no other reasons of your own.

I believe the official name for scum throwing their partners under the bus is the Fritzler 2step... but i'm not sure. (throwing your partner under the bus can suffice for now). Well, it makes sense to me... so i'm not sure what the problem is. I'm sorry if you see situations like this differently than I do.

Sometimes it makes sense, and I'm sure it's a gambit used by scum. But as a reason for casting a vote and calling someone scum? I'm not convinced. It just seems like a "If A is scum, B is his partner!" sort of thing with nothing backing it.

Why

Arafax doing the bus maneuver? Why not anyone else on the wagon? Where is your connection? I don't understand the logic, and I don't understand the vote.

Another post where you attack me, then don't vote me... and this time you're trying to get on a Kurtz wagon too, after scolding me for it? I sure hope that's sarcasm...

This is a complete misrepresentation. Trying to get on a Kurtz wagon? I was already on the Kurtz wagon. I found you quite questionable and wanted to hear more before I decided to unvote Kurtz and vote you. Also, what is your point about attacking you and not voting for you? Is it bad to question/attack players and hear what they and other players have to say before deciding to vote them?
By the way, the reason I asked Rosso his opinion was because he expressed an eagerness to lynch you. I wanted to hear his thoughts on Kurtz too.

Question about the claim. If we do try to lynch you, what happens? Is it like a no lynch?

[Pink Princess]

p.s. I don't think I believe the claim.

[Pink Princess]

2) I will show up as scum to cops at night (i am neutral after all) but i'm unsure if this will allow us to test the sanity lvls of cops or not.

2. I when if I survive til the end (thus the "survivor" title) and my role is listed as Neutral... so i'll either show up as neutral or guilty to cops (I won't know til someone investigates me which one it is).

I agree with mert, on the inconsistencies in the claims, significant with the admission that mert quoted. Above is the one that jumped out to me.

It also doesn't make sense that as a survivor, he only wins if it's him and town left at the end. So basically, he has to outlive all of the scum to win with the town? The role just doesn't make sense. Bascially, I don't know if I believe the claim enough to trust that he is, in fact, unlynchable. Rosso's plan is good if we do have a vig. If not, I guess we could lynch him tomorrow. (If he is an SK, though, that's another night kill...)

[Pink Princess]

Bye Arafax. *sniff*

Erm, mert, you got a guilty on Lowell? Just to be completely clear here, please let me know if that is correct.

Out of curiosity, what made you check Lowell?

[Pink Princess]

Twomz: can we lynch you yet?

Do we have a vig here, or no?

Vote Lowell

That's one away. Claim time.

[Pink Princess]

Personally, I think Lowell is a better play for today lynchwise. I was just checking on your lynchability status.

[Pink Princess]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Apologies for the double post.

Red, I'd love to hear your suspicions/thoughts of mert while we wait for Lowell. Mind sharing with me?

[Pink Princess]

I think Lowell's claim is a bit wild. Cop, doc, mason, kills others when lynched

and

chooses the mafia kill? Sounds a little over-powerful.
What exactly did you do last night, Lowell?

I'm with Red. I think Twomz should target Lowell tonight. There's no need to risk the take-others-with-him part of his claim if it's true. Erm, we did that with Twomz and lost a back-up. If he's unnightkillable, we'll lynch him tomorrow.

My other idea is to lynch him and have Twomz hammer. We'll lose Twomz, but since he's our SK, that would be okay with me. Sorry Twomz, nothing personal.

Unvote Lowell

[Pink Princess]

If we lynch, why don't we let Twomz hammer since he's obviously a BG?

Explain why you're killing Red again?

[Pink Princess]

My opinion stands that we wither have Twomz hammer Lowell and solve two problems at once, or we lynch someone else and let Twomz kill Lowell tonight.

That is all.

[Pink Princess]

yipes.

So what's the plan? Are we going to lynch Lowellscum and have Twomz hammer or is Twomz going to kill Lowell in the night?

Twomz, would you be willing to hammer Lowell? Can we trust you to kill Lowell in the night if we leave him around until then?

Indeed, I got the feeling from him that hes' more concerned about himself dying from a kamikaze than he's concerned about catching scum.

I got the impression that he didn't want to lose another pro-town player again by lynching Lowell. What exactly gave you the impression he was looking out for himself?

mert's misgiving (Post 394) made sense to me. Twomz's doesn't.

[Pink Princess]

Twomz, I don't think you should kill Red in the night, I'm not really seeing a good reason from you for a Rosso kill. I still don't understand why, could you answer my question in post 398? I feel like since you're an SK, I can't really trust you to have the town's best interest in mind so I need to be able to follow your logic here.

But I do think you should hammer Lowell, just in case he takes someone with him.

[Pink Princess]

I feel like the town is being directed by the SK. I don't like it.


Here is my dilemma:
If we lynch someone else and leave Lowell for Twomz, how do we know Twomz will really kill Lowell?
If we lynch Lowell, we basically leave Twomz loose to kill whomever he wants, (apparently Rosso) potentially pro-town roles or even power roles. There's really no reason for the town to let Twomz kill people at his leisure.
How are we going to get rid of Twomz?

[Pink Princess]

Bust. Simulposts.

Please do note my reluctance to kill Red. I'm not convinced he's scum, and I don't see anyone else posting valid reasons to kill him that I can follow.

I'm not sure what a better plan would be yet. I would like to hear some opinions on the questions have posted in 402 and hopefully we can come up with some sort of a plan.

[Pink Princess]

I think we should lynch Lowell and hope our vig takes out Twomz tonight, if our vig doesn't, we should lynch Twomz tomorrow.

I don't think Red should be killed in the night.

I'll vote Lowell soon.

[Pink Princess]

Actually, I'm just as willing to lynch Twomz and let the vig take care of Lowell or lynch him tomorrow. I'm really unhappy with the idea of an SK on the loose killing randomly each night, good track record or not.

Either way. Let me know what the majority thinks.

[Pink Princess]

Oh. A kami wins when lynched? I thought that a kami just took someone else with him when lynched. Wow, that's a huge difference. Erm, I must have missed that part.

In that case, we should lynch Twomz.

Does a Kami usually come up guilty when investigated? That's the one hitch - mert got him as dirty.

Red - Do you think he is a kami becaause of the bogus claim and I-give-up speech or do you have more information?

[Pink Princess]

Maybe we shouldn't lynch Twomz either and let him take care of Lowell in the night. Just in case.

[Pink Princess]

Red

- Why do you disregard mert's claim?
(Look! Your name is in red. I'm so cool.)

I kinda think Lowell needs to go one way or another. I like the idea of lynching someone else and letting Twomz take care of Lowell in the night.

I am now accepting applications for a lynch candidate.

[Pink Princess]

I think we're realizing that we kinda need an SK to make some night kills since our vig is non-existent or broken. Especially if we have characters like Lowell, who come up as guilty by the cop but seem to want to get lynched really bad.

[Pink Princess]

I think we should let Twomz target Lowell tonight and lynch someone else.

[Pink Princess]

He's the most likely to be scum (even though I think it's kinda unlikely that Twomz would be SK, I think he's mafia, because an unlynchable mafia member is a LOT more likely than an unlychable SK

This makes no sense to me. I have never heard of an unlynchable mafia memeber. I have heard of unlynchable or unnightkillable SK's though.

Kurtz - Many questions: So you think Twomz and Lowell are scum partners and there is an SK out there too? How would we concede the game to the scum if we have only had 2 deaths so far? What do you think about Red's idea that Lowell is trying too hard to get lynched? what's so bad about trying to NK him (in case his role has bad-for-the-town conditions) and lynching him tomorrow if that falls through?

I think Twomz is an SK and he can kill Lowell tonight. If it doesn't work, we always have tomorrow, as Twomz said. I think that Red is trying hard not to have Lowell lynched, and Kurtz is trying hard to have Lowell lynched. I'm not sure which way to go, so I'd rather lynch someone else. I don't doubt that Lowell is scum, and I tend to believe mert's claim. That's where I stand for now.

mert: thoughts?

[Pink Princess]

Right. Please explain to me

why

the vig would randomly choose Arafax to kill instead of Twomz. I culd have sworn the town agreed that the vig should hit Twomz.

Kurtz seems really scummy to me.

[Pink Princess]

I need to reply to this.

There was a mafia hit and a vig hit on the same person. You as an unlynchable SK is unbelievable because it is bad modding. The mafia has no reason to hit an SK at night because they're not going for town, it would counterbalance the pro/anti town relationship. So by you saying that you're an unlynchable SK, you are telling me that you are scum. In my mind, we obviously have a vig who is smart enough to not come forward (although I have my suspicions as to who it is).

1. The vig is smart enough not to claim right now but not smart enough to kill the bad guy in the night and instead kills a random townie and leaves the self-claimed bad guy alive? Right.
2. Twomz isnt unlynchable. He had lynch immunity supposedly an unspecified number of times, my guess is once.
3. An unlynchable scum on a team with other scum is more balanced than an SK all by himself with lynch immunity? Right.

Thats all. Sorry for the double post, but the Kurtz post kept bugging me. His logic is not agreeing with mine. And sorry for the lack of apostrophes in my post, my keyboard is malfunctioning.

Wait, on preview, I just realized that Twomz hammahed. Erm, I'm not deleting this post, especially since it took me 20 minutes to type with a busted keyboard. Sorry if I'm breaking twilight rules.

[Pink Princess]

Sorry, my mistake. Elias said he put him one away and Twomz voted, so I assumed it was a hammer.

What is the meaning of this point? You proved, put forth, and refuted NOTHING.

I'm not refuting or proving anything. I'm stating that Twomz isn't unlynchable. When we all talk about Twomz, we keep saying he's unlynchable. I wanted to clarify that part of his role, and I think that's an important clarification to keep in mind.

These two aren't mutually exclusive.... Just because the vig killed the wrong guy last night doesn't mean that he would have to be dumb enough to claim today. Saying that the vig killing the wrong guy makes him stupid, so therefore he would claim is illogical.

That is not what I said at all. My point was that your insistence that we have a vig over an SK isn't believeable to me right now. I am less inclined to believe that a vig would actually hit Arafax over Twomz, so until I have better evidence than your opinion, I believe that Twomz is an SK who targeted Arafax.

All that means is that I am right, and you are wrong. Your logical skills are on the far side of atrocious, as far as I can tell, so the fact that you don't agree with me only makes me feel better about myself.

Thanks. I'm glad we can discuss our differing opinions.

[Pink Princess]

As a side note, if we do have a vig, tonight would be a really good time to target Twomz.

[Pink Princess]

Happy our SK is gone, not so happy he killed Red.

To state the obvious and recap here, Twomz killed Rosso, our vig likely hit Twomz and scum likely killed Random Acts.

I think a mass claim is a good idea. We're allowed to mass claim when there are six players left, and we're there. It's pretty well narrowed down here, I think a mass claim would make finding the last scum(s) really easy.

Any good info, mert?

I don't think a lyncher is scum, but I'm happy he's is dead. One less alternate win condition to prevent.

[Pink Princess]

By the way, I'll put it on the record that I'm looking at CEM and/or Elias as scum.

[Pink Princess]

Sorry for the triple post (:oops:)
Just to clarify that the above post isn't me saying I'm clearing Kurtz. He's the third and final one on my list of candidates, but I wanted to focus on those two first.

I think it's mass claim time.

[Pink Princess]

Bust. There are seven of us left, we can't mass claim. Sorry, I can't count. Scratch that idea then. Too bad.

Waiting for mert.

[Pink Princess]

Erm, there are six, not seven. Ignore my last post. Back to mass claim time.


I'll stop posting now.

[Pink Princess]

I'm actually assuming that there is a Godfather, and that there is only one scum left. This is complete assumption and is unfounded - call it an educated guess. So don't base the game around it or anything.

I think it would be wise to have our closest to confirmed townie - mert - decide the order. That way we can be pretty sure scum isn't manipulating the order. That's my opinion.

[Pink Princess]

Does anyone have any opinions/suggestions on the order we mass claim?

[Pink Princess]

I am a pro-town roleblocker.

Bloo's up.

[Pink Princess]

Back for yet another post - sorry I forget to say everything before I submit.

Kudos on the order, mert, in my opinion it's done well. Unless someone holds it up, this should be quick. Really hoping no one holds it up. This should also tell us a lot.

The info I have - like who I blocked and such - I'd rather hold until the mass claim is over. Would anyone object to that? Objections will be noted. mert, I am also interested to hear the logic behind the order after the claim is through.

That's all.

[Pink Princess]

Maybe we should prod bloo again. Sigh. I'm pretty sure I know what he'll claim anyway, but I'd like to move this thing along.

mert: I'm okay with great scrutiny. I just don't want to influence any of the claims, (since at least one will need to be a fake) on the chance that my block info might be helpful. Who knows, it may not be, but just in case it is, I'm being cautious.

[Pink Princess]

Who'd you target each night?

[Pink Princess]

I blocked Kurtz night 1 and Twomz night 2.

Since I blocked Kurtz, his Arafax kill shouldn't have gone through. CEM says he didn't target anyone night one, but there were still 2 kills - meaning Kurtz didn't make one of those kills. Meaning CEM must have. Meaning he's probably scum.

Twomz's kill went through (obviously) so either he was unblockable (does that exist?) or I was blocked. There's a chance I was also blocked night 1 I suppose.

[Pink Princess]

Oh yeah. Unless both Kurtz and Elias are scum and Elias sent in the kill.

[Pink Princess]

Maybe you should kill each other in the night.

Mert, who did you get an innocent on?

[Pink Princess]

In addition, I have trouble reconciling your argument to lynch Twomz Day 2 rather than lynching Lowell and letting the vigilante take care of Twomz with you being a roleblocker.

Actually, I only mentioned lynching Twomz in 3 posts (405, 418 and 423) In the other 11 posts on the subject, I said for us to lynch Lowell and not Twomz. First of all, I wasn't sure we even had a vig, (since Twomz was still alive) which I said several times, so I thought lynching was possibly the only way to get rid of Twomz. I didn't like having an SK on the loose killing at night and misdirecting the town in the day - which was true and still is. I might be an RB, but that's not a guaranteed block (since there is such thing as scum roleblockers who also block people and unblockable SK's - as last night so nicely proves), so I thought lynching the claimed bad guy was an idea worth considering - especially if he wasn't going to get NKed. Plus, added to Rosso's whole Lowell might be a kami argument it was obvious that if we couldn't lynch Lowell, Twomz was the next best lynch, me being a roleblocker or not.

Your argument also rests on Kurtz being my scum partner. I find that combination highly implausible.

I don't know why Twomz's kill went through, all I can give you is my theories. And this is a fact: Twomz was blocked and his kill still went through. So speculate all you want on what the mod/scumblocker would or wouldn't do but that's how it is.

CES, may I ask why you didn't vig Twomz the first night and instead chose no one?

[Pink Princess]

Obvious one to start with, why were you keen to withhold the information until afterward? Especially since you asked Kurtz to reveal after his claim?

I didnt want to reveal my blocks because there was one less kill than possible on the night I blocked Kurtz. I wasnt sure if the fact that I blocked him would influence his claim if he was scum. I asked Kurtz who he vigged because I was curious to know. Had he wanted to wait until the end of the claim to reveal, that would have been fine with me. But just to be sure I could also prove that my claimed blocks werent influenced by the claims, I put them in the post after I claimed - the first letter of each word in the middle section - minus the z in both names (that letter was too tough to pull off).

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Why does two kills mean CES is de facto scum?

It doesn't mean CES is de facto scum at all - I corrected myself in the next post and added the option of Kurtz and a partner being scum.

The two kills, until now, were generally considered to be attributed to Twomz as SK and the scum group. Why is that now suddenly not an option?

It is an option - it's actually the only option. Because CES said he didn't target anyone that night, and Kurtz was blocked, there couldn't have been a vig kill either way, no matter which of them is lying. So the kill must have been a scum kill.

These are my 2 options:
Option A: CES is scum, who made the Arafax scum kill, because the vig, Kurtz, did not as he was blocked.
Option B : CES is the vig and Kurtz is scum, but didn't send in the kill, his partner did, and his partner would be either Elias or myself. CES targeted no one, hence the 2 kills as opposed to 3.

Due to the possible existance of a GF in this game, I'm going to hold fire on this for the moment.

Though you may call this sucking up (though none of my agreeing with you is - you are confirmed town, it makes sense to trust what you say) Do what you think is best.

[Pink Princess]

I think Kurtz is scum and CES is vig.

[Pink Princess]

just because that last Kurtz post is weird with the whole Twomz was trying to claim vig business. Twomz didn't need to take credit for anyone's kill, he made his own kills. Why would he need to take credit for the vig's kill? He never claimed vig and I don't remember him trying to. Mert's logic on that point makes far more sense.

[Pink Princess]

If there are 2 scum left, no matter which one - Kurtz or CES - is scum, Elias is his partner because there is no one else left.

(I don't expect anyone to believe me, obviously, since for everyone else in the game but myself I'm still an option - but I thought I'd say it anyway because I know one of the scum!)

[Pink Princess]

Kurtz, I think you're unnecssarily rude and have been the whole game, and it's making it hard for me to see you objectively. Rudeness always makes me a bit lynch happy.

Can't you defend yourself and particiapte in useful discussions without relying on insults? It's not a very convincing method.

[Pink Princess]

Hey Kurtz. I am not advocating your lynch because you're rude. I'm saying that I don't enjoy your playstyle and it makes me feel like lynching you just to be rid of you. Did I vote for you? No. Did I say I was going to? No. Did I encourage anyone to or present your rudeness as a logical reason that you could be scum? No. I said that rude people make me lynch happy. The post was clearly not a serious post with a logical argument to encourage your lynch. The ad hominem stuff is just garbage because I'm not even using your rudeness as an argument or a logical point to endorse a lynch, so let's just keep what I said in context. You can think what you want about the importance of your delivery. As can I, and I can express my opinion. I also said that it makes it hard to see you objectively. Not impossible. I'm aware that I dislike you, so don't you worry about my objectivity. Way to totally blow my post out of proportion, though.

[Pink Princess]

You keep insisting that you are right and that the rest of us are apparently unable to comprehend your arguments. May I add that you also insisted you were right about there not being an SK, and that Twomz was scum. Wait, let me quote you:

All that means is that I am right, and you are wrong. Your logical skills are on the far side of atrocious, as far as I can tell, so the fact that you don't agree with me only makes me feel better about myself.

Well, you were wrong, Twomz

was

an SK, not scum.

So your continued insistence that you are right this time and can explain to the rest of us how to properly play the game isn't really convincing me either. You may say you have infallible logic and be so sure you're right, but apparently your logic isn't as flawless as you seem to think. So don't be so surprised that all of us aren't immediately leaping to follow it.

[Pink Princess]

Ad hominem nothing. I posted it because I enjoy posting my opinion. I also thought that if you were aware that you were rude and it was bothersome to people, in addition to cluttering up the game, perhaps you'd try to be nice.

[Pink Princess]

It generally speaking is guaranteed. Being roleblocked yourself or an SK being unroleblockable is truly an exception. And you know what happened the first time we tried to lynch him. That should play a part in your thinking.

It did, that's why I asked him if we could lynch him yet, or if he had more immunity. Maybe it is an exception to have your block not go through, but I prefer to think of the block as not fool-proof and discuss options accordingly. It was a discussion of every possibility, and lynching Twomz was an option, a viable one, I thought. I don't play in compelete reliance on my role ability. Perhaps I should, but I don't.

So you recognize the validity of my argument?

Sure, your argument has a lot of validity. Perhaps an unblockable kami SK is very rare, and maybe it would also be silly to block me instead of an important role, like the cop. They are all options that are definately possible. But I can't agree with them, because that would directly condradict what I know to have happened. All I'm saying is I blocked Twomz and he still killed, so please consider that option, too, as unlikely as it may seem to you.

[Pink Princess]

Hm. I guess I am potentially the deciding factor. Delightful.
I can either lynch CES or put the third on Kurtz - if I were to put the third on Kurtz, would anyone voting for CES change their vote?

CES, why have you paid me such careful scrutiny and completely ignored Elias?

If we lynch wrong, we potentially lose the game (unless I block correctly tonight and prevent a mafia kill), Right? By the way, if I were scum with Kurtz I could lynch CES right now and win the game. So I should be cleared at this point as not scum with Kurtz.

The fact that Elias (scum by process of elimination) is voting for CES at a potential lynch or lose situation makes me lean towards Kurtz being scum.

Personally, I think we should lynch Elias and have CES and Kurtz kill each other in the night. Whichever one is the vig will hit scum no mater what. But in that scenario, you'd have to trust that I'm not scum.
We could also do a no lynch and have Kurtz and CES target each other in the night. With one town and one scum death, we aren't at lynch or lose in the morning and we can lynch the last scum then. If Kurtz turns out scum, I'm confirmed town because if we were partners I'd end the game right now. That would leave Elias. If CES is scum, it'd mean you guys choosing between Elias and myself.

Food for thought, I'm interested to hear some opinions.

[Pink Princess]

Well, to state tte obvious in an organized way:

1. CES and Elias are scum
2. CES and myself are scum
3. Kurtz and Elias are scum
4. Kurtz or CES are scum and there is no one left.

Kurtz - you thought the no lynch was a terrible idea due to the possibility of error - what error might there be in a no lynch followed by you and Kurtz targeting each other?

As I said, I think lynching Elias is the best idea, but that would require trusting that I am not scum, which if you aren't willing to do is fine. It would also mean there are three scum as opposed to two, which I think is more likely, but not 100%. I guess we could choose between Kurtz and CES, but at a lynch or lose time, I'm hesitant to choose between the two because it might lose us the game if we choose the wrong one. A no lynch seems better, but I would like to hear what misgivings Kurtz has about that idea.

[Pink Princess]

Sigh. Lynching me for a guaranteed town win stinks. First, you will lynch not just town, but a power role at that. Also, you think that Kurtz is scum out of the CES and Kurtz, and since I can't be scum with Kurtz, it's illogical to lynch me from that premise. And lastly, since you won't assume I'm not a Godfather/RB, you probably shouldn't assume that there is no power role left within the scum group that wasn't claimed, like mafia roleblocker. That would sorta kill the guaranteed town win with a me-lynch.

I don't think we should lynch one of the claimed vig's because of the whole choose wrong and lose the game thing, I still think what I said earlier - Elias or no one. If there

is

a mafia roleblocker in the mix, I guess no lynch is better, even though Elias is pretty obviously scum - looking at the roles in this game, 2 scum seems far less likely than 3, but that's an assumption and maybe not the best premise for a lynch either.

Mert can't be a mafia cop because we have a pro-town back-up cop.

[Pink Princess]

My misgiving is that maybe Elias isn't scum. I'd rather not lynch a townie simply because you feel like it.

But you would like to lynch someone you've stated many times you are pretty ceratin is town simply because Elias feels like it. I see.

From

And since she claims to have blocked on a night when there was a mafia kill, she couldn't be a mafia roleblocker. To me, there are no holes in her claim, but there are several holes in your claim.

Since we can assume that PP is in fact a RB, we should simply focus on that rather than creating confounded theories about scumblockers or PP being mafia with me. You can assume that I'm mafia all you want (even though that isn't the case), but PP is definitely town.

If Pink Princess is a mafia roleblocker, why did she show up as innocent to you? Only the GF has that ability, and he isn't ever a roleblocker.
I say that it's pretty much confirmed that PP is town, if you're not lying about that investigation.

To

PP is a more likely to be a scumblocker or masquerading as a roleblocker than Elias is to be scum. Anyway, a roleblocker is too dangerous to keep around.

Please, share why I am suddenly so likely to be scum. For that opportunistic turnaround for no good reason, I'm pretty willing to bet you're the scum in the vig group.

If there is a scum roleblocker, lynching me will probably lose the game.

[Pink Princess]

Also, might I add a small note for mert: I think I have provided pretty a sufficient defense for myself on all counts on which I have been questioned, my claim is solid, my play has been protown the entire game, and you have an innocent result on me. Please think before you decide lynching me is the best play for the day.

[Pink Princess]

If there's a scumblocker and it isn't you, I would be very surprised. Also, they wouldn't be able to make a kill in the first place if they were blocking me. Duh?

Should I reference games where mafia can make both a block and a kill on the same night to show you that the option does exist? I think it's actually more common for scum to be able to both block and a kill on the same night. I'm sure your reasoning that the night actions are one or the other is about as accurate as your assertion that an SK never has lynch immunity.


I'm not even responding to the rest. I'm convinced by his recent contradictions, sudden willingness to lynch me, and basic lack of protownness in the endgame as enough for me to think he's scum. At this point, I'd go with Kurtz's plan to lynch the obvious scum and completely support a Kurtz lynch. I find a no lynch a viable option as well.

[Pink Princess]

Sure. Mini 308, 271 and 278.
If you would like more, let me know.

[Pink Princess]

Fine. It's kinda frustrating that I am the choice lynch, and I feel it's not through thought or reasons why I am likely scum, it's more like lynch her and hope it works. By default, you must be pretty sure that CES is also scum, because that's the only option. Whatever. Anyway, I'll block someone tonight, and I should either block the kill or block the scumblock, if there is one, so either way we shouldn't lose the game. Hopefully there are no holes in this plan, because you're not lynching scum.

[Pink Princess]

Bloo:
Can you please elaborate why you think I am a good lynch?
Do you really think I'm scum?
Have you read any of my objections to the plan of lynching me, read any of the things I have said that point out that lynching me does not necessarily equal a sure town win, yhat if there are any holes in this plan, the town will lose? If so, why are you still choosing to vote for me?
If you don't think CES is scum (which I assumed from the above post, correct me if that is a wrong assumption) do you realize that I'm an illogical lynch as I cannot be scum with Kurtz?

I think a better option is Kurtz, Elias or no lynch. But no one really listens to me.

[Pink Princess]

I'm for a no lynch too.

[Pink Princess]

I'm ready to vote for Elias.

mert, any results?

[Pink Princess]

Vote Elias

Apparently he's the godfather...

I'll add that I would have to be both a scum roleblocker and a godfather, which isn't likely. (as a side note, my roleblocker status should be confirmed by the lack of a vig kill the night I blocked Kurtz)

Since Elias claimed "lucky townie," I think it's pretty obvious that he's the lynch for the day. Not sure what can be said to convince you of my townness, I was thinking of mentioning that CES attacked me and completely ignored Elias, but that could easily be a scum strategy I suppose. Hopefully the believability (or lack thereof) of our role claims will be convincing enough.

[Pink Princess]

Yeah, anyway. Are you waiting for Bloo to shed some light on who scum might be, you or I? I'm pretty sure of my role no matter what bloo says, aren't you? Trying too hard to look protown, if ya ask me.