Mini 280 - Game Over

[Jaguar]

Limited to no access until Tuesday... Have a good weekend everyone

Yes, I was on for two seconds this morning on my way to a meeting. And for future reference, I am just about always offline from Friday afternoon until Tuesday morning, so this is likely going to happen again. And keep in mind that the game started only yesterday, so please give some people a break. If someone hasn't shown up after three or four days, then you have my support on going after people who aren't posting.

On another note, I am a her (points at little female sign in profile) and it's been a while since I've played regularly. I don't know a lot of you, including playing styles, but Fiasco is certainly raising the hair on the back of my neck.

You have a point, but do take into account that based on numbers, the scum are already pretty close to winning, so they can afford to take fairly big risks. I'm going to unvote, vote draygn_mage, because he's the only one so far caught in a knowable falsehood (of sorts).

But a scum win is never guaranteed. I think you are being very defensive and it would be very unwise for scum to all be on the same wagon. Out of 40 posts in the thread, you have 12. You are dominating the thread with some unnecessary posts (A couple of one-liners) and double posts. If this is your normal playing style, it is certainly not helping you any.

For now no vote, as the one person I would be voting for is already at three votes at the moment.

I like LML's last observation about lurkers. Perhaps I'm a bit prejudiced, but at this time I can't call it lurking. After all, the game only started yesterday, so Kingpin's vote is even more suspicious.

[Jaguar]

FoS Aelyn: 4th votes based on little are scummy. Instead of attacking me for addressing the arguments, you should be attacking people like LmL for not addressing the arguments, as would happen in any normal situation.

Aelyn did not vote you. I'm confused here.

I have heard over and over again... 4 unified scum.

Where did you get this? Where is this coming from?

Did I miss something in Fiasco's last post? I don't see in the last post that Fiasco was still on four unified scum. As a matter of fact, he pointed out the SK/mafia scenario where the mafia takes out SK. That doesn't look like four scum together.

[Jaguar]

I clearly stated that I would vote for the silent ones. Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't. Frankly when I see your name at the bottom of the page, indicating you are online, and then you do not make a response, if only to say "hello and I think so-and-so is acting suspicious," then I'll vote for you.

Now, since there hasn't been a peep out of Passdog I'll Vote: Passdog.

Regardless of your views towards voting the silent ones, you'll have to admit that it does force them into being active.

How can I make a post when I haven't had a chance to read the thread (as mentioned I was online 2 secs before heading out)? And your vote didn't force me to post. I was going to post yesterday anyways, regardless of your vote on me.

Lurker hunting is somewhat effective, but non-poster hunting is downright silly. Why vote / lynch someone who is not posting at all, rather than trying to get them prodded or replaced?

[Jaguar]

To me, lurking is being online and perhaps even posting in other games, mish mash, or other parts of the site, but not posting in current game. Passdog has not posted anywhere on scum since Sunday evening, so I don't call that lurking. I call that being absent. Therefore, a vote on Passdog is not doing us any good, because he is obviously not on the site to check the games he is in. (And yes, he is in more than one at the moment). Yes, he has been absent for more than 48 hours, and yes, he should have posted somewhere, but the fact that he hasn't posted anywhere does not make him a lurker.

Lurkers are people who post very little in a game or try to avoid being seen as a lurker by posting no content in the posts that they are posting. This is why I disagree with the vote and FOSes on Passdog.

You want to go lurker hunting, look at Don Gaetano who has two meaningless posts in this game and has posted in two other mini's that he's participating in yesterday, while his past post in this game was on Monday. Now that is what I call lurking.

As a matter of fact, to support my point I will

vote: Don Gaetano

.

[Jaguar]

The Fiasco wagon stalling is not so strange. A few people have/had FOS'es on him and wanted more of a response or more time before committing to a vote. Some of those people haven't posted much lately!

In addition, I do tend to get fairly defensive myself for getting votes early with not much to go on. And when nobody believes you when you are telling the truth, it's hard to take.

I'm not sure if I'm completely satisfied that Fiasco is not scum, but there is a better target out there at this moment in my eyes. I'd like to see LML's points on Norinel and I'd like to hear a lot more from those individuals with only one or two posts.

[Jaguar]

I've re-read the thread, and I quickly figured out that nothing has really happened except the bandwagon on Fiasco. I'll keep my random-vote for now since there isn't really any better home for my vote IMHO.

So do you have a reason other than "there isn't really any better home for my vote" to keep it on Aelyn? That's really not a good reason. Do you find Aelyn scummy? And what are your thoughts on the Fiasco wagon? Do you support it, not support it? What?

As a matter of fact, I find it scummier than your non-posting/non-content posting earlier and I will gladly keep my vote on you.

And if you can't handle the time commitment, send a note to LyingBrian and ask to be replaced. Don't say that you are spending more time in the more developed games because you give them priority over this one. All games are equally important to the people in them.

Sadly, right now I have other games where I also haven't been active, so I'll have to post there.

But you posted in those games more recently than this one. You call that not having been active? I call that trying to appear more innocent than you are. And if there are other games that you haven't participated in as much as you should have, all the more reason to ask to be replaced in one or more of them.

[Jaguar]

Gon Gaetano, I actually missed the last couple of sentences in your third post where you briefly talked about the Fiasco wagon. And I did not realize you were in more than this game and the two games you had posted in on Tuesday. My apologies.

I have no reason to move my vote, it doesn't have anything to do with Aelyn.

I've been trying to figure out what you mean by this. Do you have a reason to keep your vote on Aelyn? Just because there are no others you want to vote for, doesn't mean it justifies your random vote for someone. Why does it have nothing to do with Aelyn? It has everything to do with him, because that is where your vote is. You can always unvote and not vote for anyone at all. I think that is less scummy than keeping a random vote on a person without a reason.

He also thinks I'm innocent now, which earns him Townie Points from my perspective (but maybe not yours).

LOL. So any scum can garner townie points by believing people are innocent? A bit of faulty reasoning there. The only person I know that is innocent is me. All the rest of you could be scum as far as I know, and simply believing that someone is pro-town/innocent is not good enough to convince me that a person is pro-town.

Mod

, can you please prod Aelyn, Nori and draygn_mage? Any luck on replacing/prodding Passdog yet?

[Jaguar]

I'll be offline until Tuesday. I may be able to sneak in on Sunday, but please don't count on it.

[Jaguar]

Hey everyone. I'm back from a hectic weekend into a hectic work week. I'll try to make a meaningful post a bit later.

[Jaguar]

As per my statement, we are now at 4 votes.

unvote fiasco

This has nothing to do with my thinking on fiasco, and everything to do with making sure we avoid a premature lynch. Is it likely to happen with only 2 more votes necessary? Probably not, but I want to avoid that possibility.

Premature lynch? The votes on Fiasco have gone very slowly! This seems to be a "protect my scum partner" tactic. I'm willing to believe that Fiasco and Viking are possibly scum together.

FoS: Viking

That post makes me feel very uneasy. I'm happy with either a Fiasco or a Viking lynch ATM

What would you have me do? Wait until we get to 5 votes and then get attacked because I didn't pull it soon enough in case of a mislynch? I prefer to take the cautious road.

Speaking of Defensive!

FOS: Vikingfan

I think this is what Kingpin is trying to pin on vikingfan for being defensive. I am not sure that I agree that statement of vikingfan being defensive. It was one post of a couple of lines explaining to LML why he unvoted after LML thinks that viking's actions could be those of scum. Yes, they could be scum actions, yet at the same time, enough people have said that they aren't sure that Fiasco is scum and it is a sound unvote for a pro-town player as well. And vikingfan seems to honestly have thought that Fiasco was at four votes at the time. When someone you are not sure of gets to a certain number of votes, it is prudent to unvote in case of a premature lynch. But to play Devil's Advocate, that point is usually one vote away from a lynch, not two votes away from a lynch. I'm not sure why in this game it seems that the danger zone is two votes away from a lynch. Did I miss something on that?

Anyhoo, back to my original point, I find this a weak FOS on vikingfan and am wondering what prompted kingpin to make it.

Norn's posts have gotten me rather uneasy lately. I will quote a little bit later.

Did you actually quote Norinel later? The next post of yours shows a bunch of quotes, but I don't know who you are quoting.

Some people might disagree with me, but I don't see any reason to unvote anyone day one when I have no better targets for my vote. Atleast not when I was the only person voting for him. Besides, I think draygn_mage made a good enough point against Aelyn to deserve a vote early on day one, so I think my vote has a pretty good home where it is.

As is obvious, I disagree with the first part of that post. If you have no reason to vote for someone, you shouldn't be keeping it there. The first day random voting aside, once conversation is up and running and you have no reasons, keeping a vote on someone is scummy. Even if you are the only one voting for that person. Now that you have a reason for your vote, albeit based on draygn_mage's post, I'll

unvote

.

I'm keeping my eye on the kingpin/vikingfan exchange for a bit longer before placing my vote elsewhere.

[Jaguar]

Hhhm. Food for thought. If both LM and DG are telling the truth, this could be interesting. Is one insane? Is one paranoid? There are a lot of options, but seeing as we are in a situation where both claim to have investigated the same person, we have a unique situation on our hands. Of course, both, if they are telling the truth, are in a predicament, because one if not both will likely be targeted by scum tonight.

With this information, I think Aelyn is certainly a good option for a lynch today, as has been pointed out by various people so far.

vote: Aelyn

[Jaguar]

My apologies. It looks like I failed to mention that I was likely offline until today, but here I am.

As LML so nicely pointed out:

THE SCUM ALREADY KNOWS WHO IS SANE!

"Don't lynch a claimed cop" is just a slogan, a rule-of-thumb. I was calling LML out on his bluff: if his PM implies that he's sane, then if we lynch him, even in the worst case we still get a confirmed-innocent unkillable townie.

No, in the worst case, Aelyn is a SK and LML is our sane cop that we just lynched. I don't like this idea at all. As a matter of fact, I'm starting to think that you, being a scum and already knowing who the right cop is, are trying to advocate something which is extremely harmful to the town as a whole.

Don Gaetano, that's interesting. I was going to say my current favorite theory was that Aelyn is a godfather with a (possibly one-shot) nightkill immunity but without cop immunity, LML is a mafia goon, and you're a sane cop. Your point makes Aelyn somewhat more likely to be innocent (though always be careful in outguessing the mod).

So if this is your theory, why aren't you advertising for Aelyn’s lynch. Why are you trying to get LML now? We gain much more from lynching Aelyn than LML!

If we lynch Aelyn, we know the right cop. There is also the remote possibility that there is someone out there who can still protect a cop! I have seen mini setups where there is a back-up in case of the doc’s death. No matter how much I want to switch my vote to Fiasco, I think we gain more from lynching Aelyn at this time. I certainly don't want to entertain the thought of lynching a claimed cop without some additional information, and lynching Aelyn will give us that information.

[Jaguar]

If we have two cops, one is going to be nightkilled soon, anyway; if we have no doctor, two. A bulletproof townie, on the other hand, lasts until lynched. And the inevitable cop nightkills will either clear him, or prove him scum, in which case we can go ahead and lynch him the next day.

I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning. Who is to say that our mighty mod will let us know which cop is of what sanity? If they are indeed both cops, we will likely not find out sanity until after the game is over and that is going to be too late.

so maybe the best feasible lynch is a scummy looking player who has not claimed a power role; say, Mage or Dog. If no other players are scummy enough, maybe even a no-lynch. (I can say that, since I'm already at the lowest possible level of popularity anyway.) I'll need to think about whether I myself might a better lynch than Aelyn.

Did I miss your claim? Why are you not putting yourself in this list as you are obviously on most people's scummy behaviour listing. An afterthought of you saying that you need to think whether you feel you are a better lynch than Aelyn doesn't put you in the same category as draygn_mage or Passdog (and why do you think they should be on this list?)

We have 10 players alive. Say we accept that both DG and LML are cops of unknown sanity. Say that we believe Aelyn's claim. That leaves us with 7 people who could possibly be scum. I still don't understand why you would want to lynch a claimed cop. We have conflicting investigation results, indicating that one is of unknown sanity, but likely both are pro-town. The scum may know who is sane, but they don't know if the other cop is just getting reverse results or is actually paranoid/naive. Taking one cop out through a lynch, makes the scum's job so much easier as we'd be doing their job for them.

Fiasco, can you please try to put everything in one post rather than double or triple posting? Am I the only one who finds this annoying?

[Jaguar]

Struggling with a post that doesn't repeat what i've already said. I still think that Aelyn is the better lynch for today.

I still think both LML and Fiasco are scummily obsessed with each other. I don't think it's worth worrying about now, as it could just a case of mutually inflaming townies with the scum either stepping out of the way or putting wood on the fire as appropriate.

Because of the interaction between these two even before any cop claims, I can see where this is a possibility. But I still think we should look closely at Fiasco for day 2 (and LML, dpending on the outcome of the aelyn lynch).

I'm just surprised that the Aelyn lynch is taking so long.

[Jaguar]

Wow. Three unvotes in a remarkably short time. There is already hesitation on the lynching vote on Aelyn, as we've been dicussing this for days now and Aelyn is still alive. I'm getting resigned to the fact that we are going to go into night, not knowing who to believe.

I still think that Aelyn is the right lynch for today, and I still feel that Fiasco's behaviour is extremely scummy for wanting to lynch a claimed cop without knowing which one is right.

Kingpin, I agree with you on the game information. Just because the role was present in another game, doesn't mean it will be present here and relying on that is downright silly.

Norinel, if that is the situation come daytime, I would imagine it's a draw between town and whomever doesn't get killed that day. If that is the situation going into night, it will depend on the night actions. Will the two scum parties target eachother or not?

Fiasco, in your mention of possible SK's you didn't mention either yourself or Aelyn. Why couldn't Aelyn be scum? Or once again, you yourself haven't endeared yourself to anyone in the game and if it weren't for this whole conundrum, I think you already would have been lynched.

[Jaguar]

Well, it looks like Norinel and I are the lonely Aelyn lynch supporters at this time. I will

unvote, vote: Fiasco

to put some additional pressure on him. Convince me that you aren't scum in some way. Your actions so far leave a lot to be desired.

Yes, LML could be lying, but with an Aelyn lynch, we could be finding that out. LML could also be telling the truth, and lynching a claimed cop on day one is always a bad idea, especially in this case. If there were two claimed cops with investigation results on two different individuals, the situation would be much different, but again, I hate to lynch a claimed cop on day 1.

As for possible scum partners to Fiasco, the possibilities are plenty. Someone already mentioned that you don't need to have partners to be scum, but even if you had partners, there are ten of us left alive, so do the math on possible matches. Just because you show no affiliation or because a fellow scum votes for you means nothing.

Not so much from my lynch as from the ensuing nightkills and cop investigations. Lynching me today and X tomorrow is a better plan than lynching Aelyn today and me tomorrow, because the X lynch will be based on more knowledge than the Aelyn lynch.

I don't get the logic here. Any lynch tomorrow will be based on more information than any lynch today, be it yours, Aelyn's or some person X's lynch.

[Jaguar]

Stop the triple posting! Don't tell me you couldn't have posted the last three posts in one! The preview button is your friend.

And I didn't realize we were at 4 and my vote would make 5. I looked at the top post count and it indicated three votes and I completely missed Aelyn's. I'll

unvote

at this time.

So tell me why lynching a vanilla townie is better or worse than lynching a claimed unnightkillable townie. Your arguments were that we wouldn't want to lynch you if you claimed, I believe, yet the townie claim is the easiest one to put forward as scum.

Besides, we weren't lynching Aelyn on no information. We have two cop investigations on Aelyn. If that doesn't make it a lynch based on information, what is? How can we ensure that for an X lynch tomorrow we will have that kind of information?

[Jaguar]

Why would not mentioning five votes be scummy? I agree with Viking that at this stage of the game, it's fine.

Not putting the last vote on at this time, as we still have a bit of time before the deadline, but I'm certainly leaning towards doing it.

[Jaguar]

I'm not sure what to think about last night. DG is dead, making it appear that he was more of a threat to the scum than LML. At the same time, we only have one death from last night, not two as we had N0.

I (still) agree with Nori and vikingfan that lynching LML today is not the best choice yet and

FOS: draygn_mage

for suggesting it. Fiasco being a townie really doesn't help us, as vikingfan said, he acted scummily enough the whole day to throw a wrench in analysing the lynch.

Let the discussions begin. d_m, you saw what wanting to lynch a claimed cop got Fiasco yesterday, do you really want to go down the same path as yesterday and possibly putting the town in a giant hole that may be impossible to get out of?

[Jaguar]

Aelyn, please extend on those accusations? You would say LML is scum when he is the one who found you innocent through investigation? And with you believing D_G was insane, why wouldn't you be more in favour of a second sane cop in the game, one who found you innocent no less.

LML, I'm not sure why you would say you figure you are naive at this point. D_G was obviously on the town side, we don't know for sure what type of cop he was and we are still not sure of Aelyn's alignment, so it is still possible that you are our right cop.

draygn_mage, if you think Aelyn is the best lynchy, why is your vote on LML?

[Jaguar]

Draygn_mage, so what exactly is your reason for wanting to lynch LML and confirm voting? If the SK helps out, we can take care of LML tonight and still target someone today that we think is scum. With leaving the SK alive, we are in a better position as town to win, especially since it appears that he has agreed to help the town. And d_m, I'm not so sure a mass claim is going to help us at this point. There are way too many scum left alive for that to work.

Norinel, I must have misread somehwere. I thought you said you were still opposed to an LML lynch. My apologies.

I'd say we go after Kingpin or d_m today and see if we can get some information that will help.