Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[mastin2]

/Might be replacing in.

[mastin2]

/Readin'.

[mastin2]

Fair warning, I think I might be tunneling on Zdenek and/or Tarson. I'll see if I can remedy the problem by continuing my reads. (I'm not used to replacing in at this stage in the game.)

On page three, 'bout half-way down. Best to read whole game before posting final thoughts.

[mastin2]

Jase and Uncle Pain both look town to me by the end of 3.

Null on Group. (Now Setael.)

Mild scumlean on Crazy (Pine) and MeWeird since it seems they both go for (similar) easy mislynches early on.

Flip-flop on Imaginality. Sometimes looks null, other times is elevated to mid-scum.

Zdenek and Tarson both seem high on scumlist, but like I said, I seem to be tunneling. I'll be giving read updates every four pages.

[mastin2]

My mistake. I was on Page Three.

[mastin2]

Arg. Finished 4, now, but getting tired. This does not bode well.

[mastin2]

Skippin' ahead to this page, looks like I'm tied for leadwagon, with Setael as the other option. Neither amuses me. Pine's Jase suspicion is from what I can tell quite wrong, and I'm opting to wait on TO until I make sure my suspicion isn't tunneling.

[mastin2]

It's not a townread.

It's simply not a scumread. Hence, lack of approval. Very rarely is a null vote a winvote. Srill catchin' up. (Sorry, sidetracked. Just did a search for my name in all non-game areas. Interestingly enough, "Mastin", "mastin", and "mastin2" all yielded different results, much to my surprise. Didn't think Search was that sensitive.)

[mastin2]

Alright, I'm going to be honest with you all:

Right now, I'm suffering a bit of Writer's Block for the early pages. I could theoretically skip 'em and work from the last five or so, but I'm kinda against that on principle. (I've seen far too many people make incorrect assumptions due to skipping vital information missing from what they read due to their skimming and skipping.) Meaning I'll have to work through it. (One possible way I can get around this is to just read and take notes on whatever I feel like, which would be, like, 10% of the posts rather than 80% or so that's normal. But me being the thorough guy I am, don't exactly like that approach.)

It'll delay my read, but I'll manage. Probably will have to pull an all-nighter to get it done, but I don't want to disappoint the mod. (Though, don't ask me to do it more than once. My hands are burning up right now and the rest of my body feels unnaturally warm, so I suspect I'm sick from one too many all-nighters elsewhere. )

[mastin2]

...This sucks. I have the time commitment for this game, but I'm not getting the strong reads normally associated with me being me, Mastin. Not so far, anyway. (Still readin', still am getting distracted. :/)

Don't worry. I always manage to get them, eventually. It IS day three; this wouldn't be the first time I took my sweet time locking onto reads.

[mastin2]

For the record, I'm continuing to tunnel on Tarson. :/
It just, well...she seems so natural as scum, is bleeding off things which're tripping my alarms. I'm not sure if it's logic, gut, or a combination thereof which makes me suspicious of her. Something about her play just seems like scum.

Yet a paranoid feeling is in the back of my head, telling me, "It can't be that easy, Mastin. It couldn't be that obvious." And additionally to that (most likely gut) feeling, is the (most likely logical) feeling that, "I'm tunneling on her, hard."

I am toying with other ideas, though. Imaginality, Me=Weird, stuff like that.

I'll make sense of it eventually.

[mastin2]

So, I finally finished page five, but I think I have a way to get a quick read of the game. Our mod seems to have been very good about Votecounts, you see...

*watches as Pine screams at his monitor in rage as he knows what I'm implying*

Sorry, but what I'm doing now quite frankly isn't working. I will try--VERY hard--to only use these to get a general look at the game, and observe general trends to see if they match up to in-game events, and if I see them not match, I'll likely go with the in-thread evidence versus this.

If that makes sense. I obviously don't want it to become the basis of my reads; I already have learned multiple times that doesn't end well. But if I dont' use it, then I'm likely going to continue having poor to no reads at all, which is worse, so the risk (tunneling, or reverse-tunneling) is worth the potential reward (good, solid reads on the game).

[mastin2]

@Pine & mastin2: If you need more time to catch-up, just tell me and I'll extend the deadline

I'll likely be finished within 48 hours. (Okay, so that's only if I worked on this game for a long, solid time, practically non-stop [extremely unhealthy; trust me on that. ]. Likely closer to 96 hours when accounting for things like, y'know, Sleep ) Current deadline seems fine. (It says June 11th. I'll be done in less than four days; that leaves just enough time for me to stop any mislynches and get us on the right track.)

[mastin2]

/Trying to decipher things. (Have been busy with a RL project, sorry, but will still be ready before deadline.)

[mastin2]

593 mastin2 - as mentioned, criticising the wagon on Setael without having formed a read on her yet seems suspicious. 595 doesn't really excuse it, since it came across as expressing disapproval (especially since the 'neither' equates it with the wagon on himself, which he can be expected to disapprove of), rather than merely a null read.

I could make some sort of justification, an excuse, to counter this, but it'd be flat-out BS. And if I can't convince myself, it's not going to convince anyone else.

What more do you want me to say? A Setael wagon doesn't look apetizing to me. Didn't then, still doesn't now. If anything, recent posts are making me dislike it even more.

The excessive excusing of his slow re-reading seems.. hm.

Bad Timing? I'm working on a project in Real Life with a deadline of tomorrow, and had other obligations with deadlines. (Which...did not quite go as I had planned. Ask Pine.)

Admittedly, there's also the fact that I'm an eternal procrastinator, but I tend to work through that when I run out of other distractions, and/or I realize I can't put it off any longer. Which...*checks deadline* we're approaching rather rapidly.

I'll be ready on time.

@mastin2, can you provide a few links to other games you've replaced into recently?

Sure, [REDACTED - Ongoing], where I just flipped [REDACTED].
[REDACTED - Ongoing], where I recently flipped [REDACTED].
[REDACTED - Ongoing], I was in from the start, and I haven't flipped there, yet.
[REDACTED - Ongoing], as a hydra from the start, where I flipped [REDACTED].
Oh, and outside of New York, there's always [REDACTED - Ongoing], where I haven't flipped, and--of course--this game, where I am [REDACTED]. (:P)

...Yeah, if you don't mind, I'd much prefer to wait for the

Mod

to approve of linking to ongoing games before I just assume it's okay, thankyouverymuch.

I don't like the attitude of "that should leave enough time to stop mislynches".

Refer to my sig. Shutting down moronic mislynches is something I just do well.

I'll stick with my mastin2 vote for now, but I'm happy to support a tarsonisocelot wagon also. Those two are definitely my preferred lynch choices for today. I could potentially be convinced to vote Setael, Pine or Me=Weird (in order of preference) but it would take a better case than I've seen so far.

Funny, for someone who is voting me to show support for who I'm voting (well, who my predecessor voted which I coincidentally currently agree with), as well as voting on the (current, technically) lynchwagon.

...That made more sense in my head. I'll see if I can reword it later in a way which makes more sense to everyone else.

/Still workin'.

[mastin2]

Why didn't you ask Mastin how he arrived at his town read on you?

I'm not going to answer for him, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this. It's quite simple, really. All a matter of perspective.


I haven't finished my work, yet, but initial findings are pointing the finger at Zdenek a lot. (>_<) I'm terrified that I'm tunneling on him.

[mastin2]

Wait a sec, something seems off. I can't figure it out.

But I suspect that I entered, "convinced beyond reason *insertnamehere* is *insertalignmenthere* and twist the evidence to fit that" mode. I need to look at things again. Start over.

If I continued the work in that mode, the conclusions would be worthless. It'd say in ten-thousand words what I could say in a single sentence: "I'm tunneling/reverse-tunneling hardcore on *insertnamehere*."

Dang it. >_<

[mastin2]

Ah, yes. Just realized another problem:

Rusty to scum in this quantity. Two scum, I know inside and out. Newbie Games drill it into my very soul.
Four+ scum, instinctive. I've had too much practice.

...The middle, 2-3 scum?

...Not so much.

My fault for overspecializing, so I have nobody to blame but myself. I'll make it work. It'll just take a little longer than anticipated to do so, while I adjust to a game of this size.

[mastin2]

Your quickness to dissaude us from the Setael wagon is a point against Setael if you flip scum.

Small flaw in your theory, there.
(But seriously. Even if I were scum, this would not be the way for scum to defend scum. So, yeah, that's another flaw in that theory.)

Sorry, I was unclear: I didn't mean ongoing games, just historically recent, but completed games.

Alright.

Outdoorsmen Mafia 2, Hydra with Nacho (as Calcifer): One of the scum factions.
There Will Be Bloodshed, Hydra with Nacho: Town.
Lovers Mafia: Wolf-scum, but I don't really count this game, since I was just playing out the scene as I had essentially been told to.
I think those're the only ones in New York actually finished that I was in.

There's also Newbie whatsitsname, Vanilla Townie, modded by Alduskkel (I believe), and also Newbie whatsitsnumber, Minimalist Mafia, modded by RedCoyote (mafia goon).

I've done this before, so I'll see if I can track down the exact links.


/Still having slight issues, but am working progressively on 'em.

[mastin2]

I've done this before, so I'll see if I can track down the exact links.

I opted out of linking to old games, but other than that, this was quite nice.

Spoiler: took a While to Compile

If you want a total list of my games, it's on my Main's wiki page, Mastin. Almost all are two years old, since I took a long hiatus. (My recommendation is to view them on the old forum rather than the archives, by replacing the "http://www.mafiascum.net" with the "http://67.222.17.61". It's a little work, but it makes for far better reading.) If you're interested but too lazy, I did compile a list with fixed links, for reading. (But since they're old, I just assumed you don't want 'em.)

My more recent games are also on the Wiki. "New Games", "I'm Back", something like that. It only covers up to TWBBS, since after that, I switched to mastin2 (Ask Pine) and have neglected to put my new games on there.


Alternatively, just look at every single Large Game which is running right now. I'm in every single one. The oldest being Outdoorsmen Mafia 2, as a hydra with Nacho, Calcifer.

I did two games which aren't Large Normals since returning, both Newbies. Newbie 1024 (I met Nacho) and 1048 (I met DarthYoshi).
1024 contains a key defining moment of me as scum: I had the chance to hammer Nacho, but I didn't think I could pull off the win alone. I was 'suspicious' of him, but couldn't do it. I knew that if it was just me, I wouldn't be able to pull off a win by myself.
1048 contains the prototype to my Guide on Cop Play.

I'm most concise when I lock on immediately and don't get emotional. If I don't get solid reads, I wall. If I get emotional, I wall. If I have neither, I tend not to. The newbie game with DarthYoshi is an example of this--I had maybe two or three long walls, the rest of my posts quite short.


My style briefly: since I'm fresh from retirement, I haven't settled down INTO a style, so my play changes with every game. It's honed with off-site experience combined with wisdom of my time away and time spent reading MD along with refining my methods of scumhunting, so my play is slowly improving every game.
There's certainly some things remaining the same throughout all my games, but a lot of what "Mastin2" is hasn't been defined, yet, because I'm still trying to work that out, myself.

General trends--Scum: Start out calm, cool, and logical, generally seen as town. I put myself into my town meta, and it works beautifully. (However, I often am trapped--boxed in--by it, locking into an action which I feel I cannot back out of as scum more often than I do as town.) Initially. Then I freak out. The facade cracks; my mask disappears when emotions start to pour in--for instance, insulting me certain ways makes me sensitive as scum, whereas when I'm town, it doesn't bother me. (I dunno why.)

Town: Impulsive, with certain compulsions. I follow feelings far more than I follow my head, doing whatever I think I should in order to win. I take a lot of risks that aren't exactly optimal play. While I do gambit as scum, I much prefer gambitting as town. I'm prone to overconfidence (related to confirmation bias tendencies and reverse-confirmation-bias), and I am slow to accept being wrong. That's pretty much as much as I know about my town meta.

Third party: Only once. The Large "Normal" run by Jebus, with Llamafluff as the backup mod. I was a Lyncher, outed Day One by a JOAT who Rolecopped me.
I truthfully told the town everything--my true target, what I was planning on doing, how I was planning on winning, everything. And proceeded to try and legitimately scumhunt...but people didn't believe me. We fought for 30 pages. I got distracted, emotional, stopped scumhunting and worked on defense. It didn't work; I got lynched Day One. When the game ended, I grumbled an "I told you so!" about my play having town's interests in mind.
Summary: I try to play identical to town, but when attacked, I react exactly as scum, the alignment acting as a bridge between the two sides, ironically.

Other: I'm fond of meta. Both for myself, and others when I have the time. I know, bad habit. 'Been trying to get rid of it in my play, but it keeps coming back. 'Working theory: I am a sentimental guy who ponders the past, seeing what he's done well and what he's...'not done well'.

I'm better at reading other's meta (when I research it enough) than mine. I Wall, always have, and--despite efforts to get rid of them--likely always will. It used to be that if I didn't wall, I was lethargic or dangerously close. AKA, lazily lurked around somehow managing to be more anti-town than walling. (As both alignments.) Either way, greatly anti-town, and have tried to stop that from being me again. I was a VI, who has become more wise (though not good >_<) with experience.
(Also, I evolved over time to become someone who tends to get strong reads, though it became tunneling often.)


I'm also quite fond of MD, if you haven't noticed. Love theory a lot, but suck at putting theory into practice, especially as a player.


Overall Summary: I'm a messed-up guy.

The person in this game most likely a Mastin Expert would be Pine--ask him and he'll challenge anything in here he sees as wrong.

There. that should answer any meta-questions. I think I might've missed a link or two somewhere, but close enough.

[mastin2]

Actually, preliminary findings from me don't look too favorable of Tarsonis/Zdenek as scum.

'Course, I'm still workin' on it. (Sorry. When I get my head into the game, I really get my head into the game and do so with a vengeance. You'll be seeing a LOT of me once that happens.
It, uh, just hasn't, yet. )

[mastin2]

Pine's 649: Jase is my strongest town-read, right now. I cannot support his lynch. I am willing to call Imaginality town, but not sure about the others. (Aside from one, which I obviously agree with. )

Also, I'm feeling worse about mastin now, his posts seem like he's trying too hard, and not quite genuine.

Trying too hard? o_O
I thought people would be suspicious of me not trying hard ENOUGH.

For the moment, my vote on Tarsonis isn't doing any good.

Unvote, Vote: Zdenek

.

We'll see how things work out after I finish my read.

[mastin2]

Zdenek (1) - Setael, Jase, mastin2

Man, two of our votes were nullified?!? That sucks. Wonder who's vote in here is the valid one?

(*

coughcoughModcoughcough*

)

That has now been fixed. Thanks for pointing it out

[mastin2]

Alright. I admit it--one of the reasons I find it hard to get into this game is that I'm not doing my job right if I live through the night.

(Yes, that's a softclaim.)

/Will Hardclaim on Policy once I finish working.

[mastin2]

I vote for the most likely scum based on information I have available to me. I don't trust your opinions.

My readthrough is going poorly. I should not have replaced into this game, I've had an enormous amount of work in the real world of late.

^Sad, but true.

[mastin2]

It's just that I could word-for-word quote you and have it apply to me as well. Tell me, does any part of it (when you replace you with me) look inaccurate?

Didn't to me.

[mastin2]

Sorry. Honestly, I got extremely frustrated and ticked off not too long ago, so have been trying to calm myself down before working on my games. CAPS LOCK RAEEEGE Mastin is not a pretty sight*.

*

Technically, it's actually bold, bold italicized, bold italicize underline, bold italicize underline capp lock, and if I'm REALLY angry, bold italicize underline capplock size500. But saying CapLock is so much simpler.

[mastin2]

...That was seventy percent! :/
(I thought everything above 65 was readable easily without effort and therefore not an issue.)

[mastin2]

*sigh*

I'm not finished, yet, but it's too close to deadline.

I'll hardclaim after Zdenek claims. (If you're town, it's not that hard to get into my head and guess why.)

[mastin2]

Mastin, I dislike how you keep making excuses and acting kinda silly and talking about unimportant stuff. It just doesn't feel like something from town.

Clearly someone has never heard of my name before.

Admittedly, it's anti-town, (don't make me explain--I've done whole rants and rambles about the difference between anti-town, scummy, and scum) and it's something in my play I need to change and have been trying to.

[mastin2]

Also, how long has it been since Zdenek posted?

[mastin2]

*sigh*

Looks like I'm going to have to stay up all night.

"Doing what?"

Waiting for Zdenek. I need to be around when he claims, for obvious reasons.

[mastin2]

And THAT, my friends, is EXACTLY why I waited to hardclaim.

CONFIRM VOTE: Zdenek, CounterClaim: BodyGuard

.

You can hammer away, Pine.

[mastin2]

For my protects...well...I'm kinda guessing they weren't very active.

Apparently, they didn't submit anything night one, and were totally absent night two.

Paraphrased, "no protects Night One, Failed To Submit Night Two".

Which I'm GUESSING means, "sent in a protect of nobody N1 and was absent N2."

[mastin2]

This is what I meant when I said I wouldn't be doing my job if I lived through the night. Since BodyGuards die if they choose the correct kill during the night. Meaning that I have a limited lifespan if I'm doing my job correctly and if I continue to live, I'm failing.

[mastin2]

And THAT, my friends, is EXACTLY why I waited to hardclaim.

CONFIRM VOTE: Zdenek, CounterClaim: BodyGuard

.

You can hammer away, Pine.

Bullshit.

I could say the same of you.
In fact, I think I will.

[mastin2]

So, I'm back, and it looks like I have to claim.

I'm a bodyguard. I protected Crazypianist both nights.

I'll get to reading the thread.

Bull

shit

.
(*sigh* Third Time...)

[mastin2]

No. Just no.
I'm trying to find words to describe it. But those words just seem to describe it best.

Also, isn't it a bit convenient that Zdenek has protected the person who Pine--the only guy on neither wagon right now--replaced?

[mastin2]

Doing an ISO.

Post two. Scumread. Post 14. Scumread.

I see NO positive reads on Crazy with control+F.

[mastin2]

Essentially. I admittedly cut a corner by using Control+F, but that revealed no positive read, but lots of negative read, in Zdenek's ISO about Crazy. The two I linked are just the ones which made this most explicit.

So, what, was he protecting a scumread?

[mastin2]

Oh, really?

I just did a FULL read of your ISO.

Crazy never moved above neutral to you.
He DID fall BELOW neutral, into scum. On (from what I can tell from the quotes) all three days. ISO 2, ISO 14, ISO 22 all show clear suspicion of Crazy, and nothing COUNTERING this suspicion.

Your "Good Reason" for "protecting" Crazy?

Pine--Crazy's replacement--is the only one not voting either of us right now.

Yeah. There's absolutely no hint of it in your ISO.

[mastin2]

I saw no crumb.
Guess what I've been doing for the last five minutes?
Going over Crazy's ISO.

Guess who's frequently a suspect?

Zdenek.

[mastin2]

Zdenek didn't claim earlier, though, did he?

I specifically waited for him to claim, since I was expecting something like Doctor from him. In which case, he'd still be scum since there wouldn't be two protective roles in the game.

Had I claimed earlier, Zdenek could've gotten away with any roleclaim other than "protective role". But I had a hunch. Call it a gut feeling. That Zdenek was going to claim a protective role. I was right, though wrong on which one. He happened to have WORSE luck than I thought he would, and claimed the EXACT role of me, rather than just a Protective Role (which still woulda gotten him lynched, hence me wanting to make sure he had the opportunity to fall into the trap).

I have no clue where you get the idea where my claim was softclaiming VT. If I were a VT, I would flat-out have claimed it. (Reason? [REDACTED - Ongoing]. But Pine ought to know why I wouldn't fakeclaim right now. ) VTs don't have a role which relies on them being killed during the night. My previous VT play is not that. It's...hard to explain. Simply put, my play makes no sense as a VT. I specifically said "softclaim". I don't softclaim VT; that's not even a real role. Softclaim implies power. Softclaims imply a role of some sort. I don't think I've ever seen people softclaim VT and CALL it a softclaim.

I can't speak for my predecessors. I really don't know. I've given you the closest paraphrase I can without pretty much copy and pasting what was said, and I honestly don't know what it means; I can only give my interpretation of it.

-edit: mastin2, why would Zdenek worry about crazypianist suspecting him, if he thought she's cop?

Simple, really. He BS'd the whole thing and had no Cop Read on Crazy. Read Zdenek's posts. He's been suspicious of Crazy the whole time. There's no way you think of a person as being suspicious, while protecting them as a POSSIBLE PR. No way. It's a broken chain of thought which does not connect.

[mastin2]

Typical VT softclaims:
"I got a boring role this game."
"It's not like my role is actually useful this game."
"It's not like my claim will actually save me."
"My role really isn't that interesting."
"Go ahead! LYNCH ME! I'm WORTHLESS!"
Stuff like that. Am I wrong?

No. Admit it: that's the typical VT softclaim. I've seen it a hundred times. And you know you have too.

Compare to this:

Alright. I admit it--one of the reasons I find it hard to get into this game is that I'm not doing my job right if I live through the night.

(Yes, that's a softclaim.)

/Will Hardclaim on Policy once I finish working.

Distinct Difference.


Also, for those doubting it: I hinted at my reason here. "If you're town, you might be able to figure out why I'm waiting for Zdenek to claim first." Why? To trap him if he claimed a Protective Role, of course. I predicted that.

And I wanted to wait Specifically for Zdenek to return.
Why?

Because I was predicting that Protective Role claim. I knew it was coming, and I knew if I wasn't around, my counterclaim wouldn't look as strong. I knew that if I gave, say, eight hours or so between his claim and my counter-claim, that it'd make my claim look desperate. So, I needed to be around at the time he claimed, specifically so that I'd be around to immediately (rather than effectively posthumously) counter-claim him.

[mastin2]

Also on the "I wouldn't be doing my job properly if I lived through my night" - that fits better with a VT claim than a bodyguard one. A VT with ideal play should be the nightkill by playing so well scum try to kill them. A bodyguard with ideal play should locate and protect a town PR of more value, and should only be the nightkill if scum target that player. (No value in dying to protect a VT instead of protecting a cop, unless the VT is an awesome scumhunter.)

No. Ideal BodyGuard play is to stop the nightkill. Period.

It doesn't matter.

VT, Power Role.

Whatever.

If a BodyGuard lives through a night, they're not doing their job.

They're not protecting the person who needs protection.

If the scum kill someone, THEY THINK THAT SOMEONE IS A THREAT. It doesn't matter what their PR is. I don't care if they're a simple VT or a dayvig. Protecting the nightkill interferes with the scum's motives, while simultaneously getting rid of a player they (most likely--there are some rare exceptions where the BG is the best kill; I've seen it before*) wanted to keep around.

*(Pine again. He knows what I talk about all too well.)

If I died defending a VT? I'd be stopping the scum from killing that VT, who they wanted dead FOR A REASON. And if they wanted them dead, that by DEFINITION means they thought of said player as a threat, and therefore, someone who needs to keep living, since generally, "threat" translates to "competent".


Quite frankly, I meant exactly what I said. If I didn't find who the NK tonight was (I...have an idea, which I've been pondering, but am not positive of it), I would quite frankly have FAILED my duty as a bodyguard. My only purpose in this game as a BodyGuard is to DIE during the night, defending a pro-town player, REGARDLESS of THEIR Role PM.

A VT's job isn't to die during the night. That's certainly helpful, and a great blessing to the PRs. But it's a side-effect of their true purpose:

SCUM HUNTING.

Gambits taken as a VT like claiming to be a PR, for instance, are not meant to get you killed. That's a wonderful side-effect which would be awesome. Gambits of that nature are meant to either protect a town-read or condemn a scum-read. (The latter of which tends to end FAR more poorly than the latter. Trust me, know from experience. )

THAT is the difference.

Zdenek's 2 and 14 express fairly mild suspicion of CP.

Mild? MILD?!? YOU CALL HIM SAYING CRAZY IS IN HIS TOP TWO SUSPECTS

MILD?!?

In between, in iso 4 he says CP is 'fine'.

Yeah. Fine.
Translates to "neutral at best".

Not "town". Which you'd expect if someone thought another to be a PR.

22 does call CP scummy for not scum-hunting, although qualifies it with "at least what seems to be a lack of suspects, he's said little today". That seems to at least not contradict the idea of Zdenek viewing CP as a lurky PR (compared with if there were other reasons given aside from relative lack of activity)

Yeah. Does not contradict.
Doesn't support it, either.

I'm asking why crazypianist's suspicion of Zdenek makes Zdenek's claim less believable.

Crazy suspects Zdenek. Zdenek claims protection of Crazy. The two don't add up. Simple. Maybe not alone. But the feeling that it was MUTUAL makes both sides stronger.

If Zdenek was suspicious of Crazy, that'd be bad. It is.

If Crazy was suspicious of Zdenek, it'd be suspicious. (And it is. I've personally never seen a protective role protect someone who was calling them scum. [Not that it hasn't happened, I just haven't personally seen it in my 34 games.])

COMBINED, though, they make it COMPLETELY unbelievable.

I thought you wanted Zdenek to claim first because Pine had expressed more suspicion of him than you.

I didn't pay attention to Pine at all, really.

If Zdenek had claimed VT and been disbelieved, or made a claim which fell down on its own, you might not have needed to claim at all.

Except, I needed to claim on personal policy, my Personal Honor Code today, regardless. I do not believe in letting softclaims go without hardclaiming. I needed to Hardclaim today after the Softclaim. I was going to do that regardless.

Don't see why counterclaiming immediately gives you townpoints

Doesn't. It's null. Waiting, however, would be deadly.

when you were (whether scum or town) considering counterclaiming him before his claim (giving you plenty of time to think up possible counterclaims).

What. This makes no sense. I predicted his claim. I knew he was going to go for a Protective Role. I knew that if I claimed first, he wouldn't.

You also miss the implication.

Had I not been around, two things could have happened. And don't tell me neither of these would have; I know how the mind of whole towns work.

1: I would have been hammered. Cleared posthomously, of course, and Zdenek dies tomorrow, but I would obviously prefer today.

2: I would have woken up, see people go, "Ah, I believe you. Let's see what Mastin claims."
"COUNTERCLAIM: BODYGUARD."
"Lol, scum cornered? VOTE: MASTIN!!!"
^Not the exact words which'd go on, of course, but that is more or less how things would play out. I know it, because it's what has historically happened in every game I've read.

[mastin2]

Hey, Imag. You need to invert your sig.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the worst liar--a condemned criminal--I will find something in them which will set him free."

Whether or not you've seen it happen, I fail to see why, if I'm a protective role, and believe another player to be an investigative role, I wouldn't protect them. Now, maybe I might in an OMGUSsy way be less likely to believe in the first place that they're a PR, but if I do believe they are, then there's no reason their suspicion of me should make me less likely to protect them. If anything, it's a bonus, since it confirms me if they investigate me.

You're not getting it.

Zdenek expressed suspicion of Crazy ON ALL THREE DAYS.

Crazy expressed suspicion of Zdenek.

Zdenek claims to have thought Crazy dropped an investigative role breadcrumb and to have protected him the whole time because of it.

THESE TWO DO NOT ADD UP.

If you think someone's a PR, YOU THINK THEY ARE TOWN. If you don't believe they're a PR, by YOUR logic, YOU DON'T PROTECT THEM. (And by my logic--taking it one step further--if you think they're scum, you DEFINITELY don't protect them.)

There's a contradiction in there. Honestly. How can't you see it?

Zdenek believed Crazy to be scum. On all three days, to varying degrees.
Zdenek claimed to see Crazy as a PR and protected him.
IF YOU ARE SUSPICIOUS OF SOMEONE, YOU DON'T BUY THEIR CLAIM.

This is plain as day.

I disagree that it's better as bodyguard to protect a VT-nightkill over protecting a cop read, if you think the scum might have also picked up on the cop tell. Your VT had better be pretty great to make up for the results you lose out on, if the scum kill the cop.
This is perhaps more of a discussion for MD after the game though.

Protective roles ALWAYS protect who they think will be nightkilled. The ONLY exception to this is a claimed PR, as the Protective Role shouldn't engage in the WIFOM of trying to stop the actual scum kill. If it's only a hint--WHICH ZDENEK APPARENTLY DIDN'T REALLY BELIEVE (see above)--then unless you SPECIFICALLY think the scum DID pick up on it, you DON'T protect them. You instead protect who you think the scum will ACTUALLY kill, since that player won't die unless the scum saw it as well--and depending on the nature of the so-called 'crumb, you can easily tell this. I for one did not see the crumb. I sincerely doubt anyone else did, either.

Similarly, he listed crazypianist in his 'top two scumreads' way early in the game, well before post 244.

Explain, then, the increased suspicion Zdenek had in ISO 14.
I dare you.

I effing DARE you to.

Zdenek was pushing Crazy hard, there.

[mastin2]

Something weird strikes me about zdenek and me=weird. I need to go back and reread to see their actions more clearly.

Crazy was still suspicious of Zdenek.

IF ZDENEK THOUGHT CRAZY WAS AN INVESTIGATION ROLE INVESTIGATING HIM, WHY WOULD CRAZY STILL BE SUSPICIOUS OF HIM?
Zdenek would have seen this, and KNOWN that Crazy didn't investigate him, and therefore, wasn't a PR like he originally thought, by your logic, Imaginality.

In other words,
HE PROTECTED SOMEONE WHO HE HAD NO EXCUSE TO THINK WAS A PR.

[mastin2]

*will be polite and wait until the game's officially over*