Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[Zdenek]

Vote Yabbaguy

Defensive first post.

[Zdenek]

Imaginality: I don't exspect him to answer that he is mafia, but do you exspect him to answere he is a bad player? Since he now has 2 votes on him, I exspect him to answer why he did it, which gives imformation on yabbaguy, so I don't think that was completly usless, beside it was part of my reason for voting yabba so for me not completly usless

I don't like that Stefan is trying to justify asking rhetorical questions. The fact that he asked one early is not a big deal (if it happened later in the game, I'd find it scummier), but his defense of it seems to be active lurking - contributing, but not scum hunting.

I thought that [L]'s vote on Ocelot was essentially a random vote (even though [L] tried to give some sort of reasoning for it), so I find Tarson's response to it:

I've played in games with 2 and 19 sides, but not three to my knowledge[could change by the time this game ends]. Is there any reason that not accounting for all of these and other possibilities in a throwaway comment at the start of RVS is suspicious or is this just because I stole a piece of candy from you?

to be overly defensive. It feels like he is trying to determine how serious the vote actually is.

Jase, why is Yabba's reaction testing scummy?

Who has failed to post thus far, and how long does one really have to wait before they're a d1 lurker? I can understand a couple days, but I'd think by the end of the second day people can no longer have excuses for not posting yet. It's important when you say "A lurker" to make a list of who those might be. It makes it more clear where your suspicions lie, and clarity can only(in most cases) help the town.

This post is active lurking. He asks a question he could easily find the answer to himself and then pads the rest of the post with pro-town fluff.

Unvote
Vote Surprise Carcinogen

[Zdenek]

Zed: Isn't my reasoning on yabba clear?

Not to me. Why was his reaction-test scummy?

More to the point, Zed, you have posted twice, and have barely done any scum-hunting yourself, going so far as to have a two-word reasoning for your vote, as well as a column of meaningless fluff

What did I say that was meaningless fluff?

Zdenek's first post looks suspicious for the same reason as Uncle Pain's.

Here is what you said about Uncle Pain's first post:

Uncle Pain: First post voting me=weird was off. Me=Weird had yet to post at that point (and still hasn't) but Uncle Pain didn't comment on anything about the first page and is probably trying to deflect attention away from his scum buddies.

I didn't vote for me=weird, so you can't mean that, the person I voted for had posted, and my vote did contain a comment about something that happened on the first page. Now, perhaps you thought I should have said more about something that happened on the first page, but the only things that you commented on were my vote and mr. pain, who posted just after me and had the last post on the page. So you didn't see anything worth commenting on there either. This makes me think that you flinging shit to see what sticks.

Zdenek: Why are rhetorical questions scummy?

The easy answer is my impression is that scum ask them more often than town. However, to be more detailed, asking them is a way to participate in the game without scum hunting, which is good for scum, and they disparage the person you are talking to, so they are a subtle form of mudslinging. However, that was not my main point just now, it's that you were defending asking one, and I don't understand your reasons for doing so.

I feel like Jase is being intentionally obnoxious and that this recent calling out of people who are ignoring him confirms this. Since he's aware of what he's doing, my read on him at the moment is leaning town because of the willingness he has to draw attention to himself.

Zdenek: Care to give us some reads?

My strongest reads are Jase and Yabba as town and Surprise Carcinogen and crazypianist as scum.

[Zdenek]

I thought this was wrong when I read it:

Surprise_carcinogen has made posts that hint that he knows the lay of the land, . . .

and it turns out I was right

It was a false statement.

This was a misrepresentation of SC, for the purpose of attacking him, which is quite scummy. Especially considering that SC was coming under some pressure at the time.

Unvote
Vote [L]

I think lay of the land stand for you knowing how to play mafia (lay=law?), hope that helps.
At last that's what I get from the post.

Please don't answer questions for others. This time it's not a big deal.

StefanB, my point from before that you are arguing about was that for you take time to defend asking rhetorical questions was contributing, but not scum hunting. It's right there in the post.

Zdenek: What’s your stance on StefanB?

My read on him is null. The only things that I find in his play at the moment that I think are telling are his reactions to the votes on him, and my feelings about them are split. Looking at the threads he's participated in, my impression is that he's played in enough games that he should know better than to react like this to a few votes. Just to be clear, I have not examined his play in other games at all. On the one hand, I think there are some reasonable points that can be made against him: his responses to accusations feel over defensive, and he is definitely using appeals to emotion. However, his frustration reads as genuine, and he's continued to give his opinions on people.

[Zdenek]

My reasoning for making such an obviously false statement was to goad surprise carcinogen.

I don't believe you. If it were true, why not say so right away?

@Zdenek: #93: You commented on one of the first posts page 1. Further my post was very early on page one, while yours was the second to last.

When I was talking about you finding nothing to comment about on the first page, I was referring to your second post.

Zdenek: You had your vote on Surprise_Carcinogen but switched to [L] due to her false statement. Do you still suspect Surprise_Carcinogen? If yes, where do you see a connection between the two? What do you think about crazypianist1116 now that he’s posted #138?

[L] has attacked SC for a few things that if she actually believed, I think she would have voted for SC, but she never did. So it could be distancing between scum; however, my feeling about that is so weak that an [L] scum flip wouldn't make me want to lynch SC more. It seems more likely to me that it is scum [L] attacking a townie, so an SC town flip would probably make me want to lynch [L] more than I already do.

CP's Post 138 is fine, but I'm waiting to hear how he responds to Jase.

[Zdenek]

Because that would make it useless?

Sorry, I should have said right after she was called out on it.

Well, frankly, you've seen me play as scum. I am much....shall we say....different. My town approach is to analyze more... but this game started out so disgustingly that I haven't even done that.

Personally, I'd lynch people for doing as little talking as me.

At least you'll understand why you're swinging.

I am not interested in a Stefan lynch.

I think Ocelot's being mostly useless, but that [L] is scummier.

[Zdenek]

I was busier today than I expected, and will post tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Zdnek: I have NOT been swinging. I have voted two people.

I meant that you'll understand why, if you are lynched.

I think Redtail's reads are all safe with his scum reads being Stefan, Ocelot, [L] and Andrew. Three of whom have been the biggest wagons.

Stefan, I skimmed your series of posts, but I could have missed something. If there is something in there you want me to address, point it out.

I don't understand this. Can you clarify please? What exactly did I take too far? And why do you suspect my slot?

Reads as over defensive.

@unclePain: The best way to explain it is that when I'm town, I appear scummy because I keep my analyses to myself. When I'm scum I look super townie because I make an effort to look townie, to convince others that I am town.

I hate this.

Additionally, [L]'s recent posts pushing for Stefan to vote her are terrible.

[Zdenek]

I'm fine with continuing.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek's vote makes me feel worse about him. It's too EARLY to be active lurking. That's a ridiculous assumption.

Don't call it active lurking if you don't want to. Regardless, it was contributing without scum hunting. Of course it's a moot point now.

@zdnek: I was not pushing for stefanb to vote me - how di you also misunderstand this?

Perhaps we aren't speaking the same language, you said

Just vote me stefan, since you believe I'm scum. Don't worry about what others think of you - when you find scum, you vote for them. Don't hesitate - that's scummy, as you've already stated. But it goes beyond that. Scum tend to show caution more than town.

You tell him to vote you, and you say the him failing to vote you is scummy. That is you pushing for him to vote you.

Now, can I get tarson, zdenek, crazypianist, and uncle pain in their own words in the shortest paragraph possible why they think [L] is scum.

No, because I don't have to. It's pretty clear why [L] is scummy.

[Zdenek]

When Redtail replaced in, all of the read he gave were incredibly safe. His scum reads were [L], andrew, Stefan and Ocelot. [L], Stefan and Ocelot were the major wagons day one, and severl people voiced suspicion of Andrew.

There was this post,

I don't understand this. Can you clarify please? What exactly did I take too far? And why do you suspect my slot?

Yabbaguy noted the issue with it:

"wababa what the crap accusation, wait that's not clear, excuse me while I put on good Townie face and ask politely as possible 'Just why exactly, good madam, have you decided to accuse me on an otherwise perfectly fine day? Could you be bothered to explain the inner meanings of your grievances about me?'"

Criminey. Scummy scum Mcscum.

Now,

VOTE: C-Worl

The hammer was scummy scummy scummy. There's no way around that. And his content beyond that is not fantastic (certainly not exceptionally townie).

If we agree not to lynch C-Worl for this, I'm still going back to TO, based on supreme IIoA and general lack of scumhunting.

Redtail readies his escape from the C-Worl wagon back on to Ocelot in case that lynch doesn't happen.

So while I think C-Worl's hammer was hasty, I'm seeing more scum-intent in Redtail's play.

Vote Redtail

[Zdenek]

I admit I still don’t understand what yabbaguy’s problem with redtail896’s simple questions was. This may be another yabbaguy attitude thing but he takes it further by calling redtail896 scum. Scum for stating a question that yabbaguy isn’t keen on answering to. In consequence, I don’t understand why Zdenek uses this to incriminate redtail896. The part with the prepared escape from the C-Worl wagon is far more substantial.

The problem with Redtail's post is exactly what Yabbaguy suggested it was:
he's complaining the he doesn't understand the post, asks for specifics about what he took to far, and for a case to be presented against him. It reads like scum trying to suck up to town while muddying the waters of why he might be suspicious. I included when I listed my reasons for voting Redtail because it was one of them, and I agree completely that him preparing as escape from the C-Worl wagon is a better reason to find him scummy.

Ocelot's IIoA posts make her likely town despite the fact that they could be easily fabricated by scum. She reads to me like she is trying to play the game, and as scum she could probably just lurk the people off of her, but that's not what she's doing.

[Zdenek]

I’d see your point if redtail896 had done this all the time – but it was only for one single statement from [L]. Why is it scummy to ask for clarification? Actually, I’m asking you for clarification right now, too, doesn’t this also count? Look… player A says something, player B replies that he doesn’t understand what A meant, player C calls OMGWTFscum on this. Seriously?!
Just to prevent misunderstanding: I’m not defending redtail896 here, I’m curious why you and yabbaguy use such a flimsy idea as a serious argument.

I don't expect scum to do scummy things all the time and it's not that he asked for clarification, it's how he did it. Just to use your post as an example, you are doing it in what I think is a fairly aggressive way; whereas Red seemed to be doing it in a careful and polite way. I find his way scummier.

Also, that business about not defending Redtail is pretty bad, since you obviously are defending him.

[Zdenek]

I thought that Yabba was town. Now that bvoigt has posted I'm increasingly sure that slot is town, since he's replaced in and made some decent/original points.

[Zdenek]

Crazypianist is looking worse to me after 406:

Something weird strikes me about zdenek and me=weird. I need to go back and reread to see their actions more clearly.

A weak attack against me and me=weird.

Jase, why are you not voting C-Worl?

A question whose answer would be obvious if he was reading the thread.

Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea,

The idea that you saying something is scummy gave scum the idea to go and do it seems ridiculous to me.

406 from crazypianist I like.

Why?

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek: What's your read on C-Worl?

Looking at him in ISO, he started off thinking [L] was scummy, which is fine.

I agree with the point against him for bringing up unusual third party roles (Jester, Governor).

I really hate his ISO 6, and in particular this:

Now, can I get tarson, zdenek, crazypianist, and uncle pain in their own words in the shortest paragraph possible why they think [L] is scum.

Can I also get yabba, redtail, [L], and prox in their own words in the shortest paragraph possible why they think tarsonisocelot is scum.

Consider yourselves as trying to win over my vote. Failure to comply will be seen as you sheeping to the wagon that you're on.

He's voted for [L] without giving a reason, but as he unvotes, he demands everyone else give cases. It seems hypocritical to me.

As far as the hammer goes, it was anti-town, but I don't buy the argument that scum would do it because Jase pointed out how anti-town it was.

His play today reads like he is resigned to his lynch.

Overall, his play is definitely anti-town, and the only thing that makes me think that he could be town is that don't think that scum would hammer after being told not to.

It’s convenient to completely agree with the preceding slot player. It’s supposed to look consistent but in fact it looks opportunistic and can be seen as minimising the effort put into the reads. Hence the scumminess.

I'm having a hard time buying that you actually believe this because you're basically accusing bvoigt of being obvious scum - giving reads that are lazy, and just an attempt at being consistent or opportunistic, but you don't attack him for it nearly strongly enough.

@everybody expressing suspicion of C-worl not voting him: Is there any good reason you don't want to hammer?

Jase has told everyone to not hammer. Why are you asking this?

[Zdenek]

My immediate feelings remain the same as they were yesterday with my scum read improved a bit by Redtail's willingness to get off the C-Worl wagon.

Vote Redtail

Re-reading, bvoigt in particular . . . .

[Zdenek]

This is very difficult without Ranger or Redtail making any posts.

What's the case against red all about?

For me the main point against him was how he voted C-Worl while also saying that he'd be happy to unvote and vote Ocelot instead.

[Zdenek]

Me=weird, what was the strong connection between RotN and C-Worl?

[Zdenek]

zdenek post 23 sheeps imaginality

This is a pathetic accusation considering this happened in RVS and has no bearing on alignment. Besides, just because two people have the same idea, does not automatically imply that one is sheeping the other.

p 128 Odd for zdenek to not even comment on Uncle Pain, the leading wagon.

He was at three votes, one of which could have been an RVS vote (at least it didn't seem serious at all), it was early in the game and there was no need to comment.

Zdenek post 330 tries to derail cworl wagon and start one on redtail. Then in 360 he’s agreeing with uncle pain that Redtail is scummy for supposedly preparing an escape from the c-worl wagon. If this is the case, and Zdenek thinks c-worl is scum, why isn’t he voting c-worl? Or mentioning him at all? Then when the redtail wagon doesn’t take, in post 424 when c-worl is at L-1 he tries to get momentum moved to crazypianist.

First of all, I'm the one who brought up the prepared escape vote. I was trying to use the time to scum hunt. There really wasn't anything to say about C-Worl. I thought his hammer was bad, but I'm surprised it came from scum.

The interaction between zdenek and uncle pain while c-worl was about to be lynched is fishy. It’s like Uncle Pain was seeing that the townies were letting zdenek fly under the radar, so he made sure to ask him lots of questions, just not about c-worl.

What is the scum motivation in not letting a buddy fly under the radar?

Zdenek's 402 without details is scummy

This game has been moving very slowly, they were completely obvious and could have only referred to a few posts on the previous page.

Anyway, I think Uncle Pain is town because he's remained active when he could just lurk, and has tried to keep other people active too. I see no scum motivation in this. I think this argument trying to link the two of us is a bad exercise in hunting for connections between players.

[Zdenek]

What do you mean, there was no need to comment? A townie considers the leading wagon, regardless of how early. They're inclined to take a stand or at least state their read one way or another. It doesn't make sense to ignore it entirely the way you did unless you're buddies.

The wagon had three votes on it at the time, one was for no reason, it was early in the game, and I didn't feel the need to comment on it. I think you are making a big deal out of nothing, since looking back it seems like all some people had to say about the wagon was to ask GroupThink to provide an explanation for his vote. Since you are trying to use this event to connect Uncle Pain with me, if I thought UP was scum, and was searching for relations between players, I'd say those comments are more indicative of a connection, since they are softly defending UP by asking someone voting him to provide a reason.

If that is true why didn't you say so at the start of d2?

I thought that C-Worl's hammer was hasty and I said it.

You really see absolutely no merit in anything I posted about him? You're really putting him as town just for activity? I've played games with you where the scum were the most active players and certainly made every effort to keep others active. You and I both know that there is a whole lot of scum motivation to play that way because a lot of players, especially newer players will auto read them as town for it. You would not say this if you were town.

Looking down at your 514 where you list the points that are independent of me:

p125 Uncle Pain defends Andrew. “imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy?”

I think all imaginality had said about Andrew up until this time was:

Andrew94 has hit second on my scumlist with his last two posts (I'll go into more detail later).

So, I don't really find this question unnatural, and I especially do not find it unnatural in the context of Uncle Pain's play so far.

Uncle pain 321 c-worl vote is almost definitely bussing

I don't understand why think this vote was bussing over the others. If anyone was a bussing vote, I'd say it was redtail's.

Bvoigt was NK'd for uncle pain suspicion in posts 393 and 432.

This is a reasonable point insofar as night kill speculation is reasonable.

P399 Uncle Pain says: "bvoigt: How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy?" Sounds like something scum would say - upset they're losing their free pass.

This is a fair point.

422 combined with 398 is weird. Either he thinks it’s odd that bvoigt suspects him when no one does, or he’s relieved by it. The 2 posts don’t work together for me.

UP didn't write 398, but I know what you are talking about. I agree this is odd.

c-worl: "Not enough for you? Hammered myself to keep suspicion of Uncle Pain from building up." So you can say what you want about c-worl’s WIFOM, but this one makes sense, and I think it is true.

I think it is best that we ignore C-Worl.

And then post 444 UP posts it...and it’s questions for most the players. Why not post it when he supposedly wrote it? And if he decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete? Makes no sense.

Agreed

457 Uncle Pain brings up bvoigt NK wifom before anyone else can. He clearly NK’d the person who was suspicious of him and planned to wifom the town.

But you are bringing it up now, and if it's a valid thing to bring up then who cares who brought it up first.

Why would you assume scum PR instead of town PR? This is just thinly veiled role fishing combined with an attempt to cast suspicion on my slot with crap mod-outguess reasoning.

This is a good point.

As far as the activity argument goes. Looking back at those games, in Neruzian Mafia of the slots that were alive at the end:

Faraday had 246 posts
Vi had 99 (scum)
Quilford + Setael had 94
Sloth had 63
Hiplop had 59 (scum)
Darth Yoshi + Juls had 54

Vi was active as scum, but I'd judge her separately from most other players.

In Nexusville Mafia:

neil+King1216 128
q21+setael 101
Darth Yoshi (scum) 72
Implosion 51
Neko2086(scum) 47
WOMC+Swiftstrike 47
Zdenek (scum) 44

So scum weren't the most active players. In the first, I think Hiplop was in no way trying to keep other people in the game, and that while Vi might have been, her interactions with other people, esp. Quilford and Hiplop were awkward. In the second game, Swiftstrike had DY pegged as scum because of the sort of questions he was asking. I don't mean to argue that activity is a good town-tell, but I do think that activity in the absence of scum-tells is.

In summary, I think there some oddities in the things that UP has said, the contrast between his reaction to bvoigt's suspicion of him and being relieved that someone is suspicious of him and not originally posting the post of questions he wrote before C-Worl's hammer. I think the last point (UP's PR speculation) is the best one against him.

[Zdenek]

You left out Storm of Swords. I feel like Uncle Pain's playstyle/activity level is a lot like MoI's in that game.

Not sure why you find it necessary to address the points against Uncle Pain that are independent of your alignment.

I left it out because it was a large, and actually trying to determine who was most active is harder especially considering the number of scum killed fairly early. I'll have to think about the similarity with MoI.

I addressed them because you asked me

You really see absolutely no merit in anything I posted about him?

and the points that depend on me being scum are wrong from my point of view.

[Zdenek]

First of all, about the activity thing. It's not just UP's activity that gives me good feeling about him, it's the nature of it. His questions don't misrepresent stances that people have taken and I don't think he's using them to softly cast suspicion on to other players. I think he is genuinely scum hunting with them and trying to move the game forward.

Zdenek: (question changed due to new situation) Who are your current suspects apart from redtail896? How has Setael’s case influenced your reads?

Crazypianist's lack of suspects (at least what seems to be a lack of suspects, he's said little today) makes him scummy (forgetting to scum hunt).

Setael could be scum too. The past people in her slot didn't help, and her cases are too reliant on relational tells, so I think she is reaching with them.

[Zdenek]

I'm thinking the only reason one would want to escape from such a strong wagon is if they we're scum with the target of the wagon.

I was thinking that scum would want a safe place to move their vote if the wagon they were on fell apart and it didn't matter what C-Worl's alignment was.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek 424 against CP - still doesn't mention cworl. Trying to swing momentum anywhere else

Good point

I don't necessarily want a competing wagon. What I want for there to be more information today, and not much scum hunting has happened. Ideally something would be brought up that would start a wagon that gains enough support to be considered competitive to the c-worl wagon, sparking a whirlwind of discussion. The second bit (I think) is pretty clearly misinterpreting my want for another wagon. I don't want to know who else people think we could maybe lynch instead of c-worl, obviously if we lynched immediately c-worl would be best. I want people to look for a GOOD wagon. I want to see some good solid scumhunting.

One day you want scum hunting and discussion, and the next day someone who's doing it is scum for trying to swing momentum anywhere else.

I had a strong town read on Surprise

Why?

[Zdenek]

Zdenek blatantly avoided commenting on c-worl or his wagon and tried to start other wagons while c-worl was close to lynch, but once asked point blank about c-worl, he provided all kinds of reasons to think c-worl was scum. Also, the fact that he stated a town read on Uncle Pain based solely on activity when he's been in games lately where scum was very active and posted similarly to UP.

I said that I thought that the hammer was hasty. I wasn't interested in quick-lynching C-Worl, and I wasn't going to waste the day doing nothing. When UP asked me about C-Worl, I did an ISO of him and tried to answer the question completely. Plus my feelings about him were changing as the day drew on because of how C-Worl was trying to defend himself. The town read on UP is not just because of activity, it is because of the nature of his activity, and I disagree with your analysis of scum's play in our past games. In particular, I do not think that Uncle Pain is nearly as aggressive as MoI was in Storm of Swords.

[Zdenek]

I will be V/LA tomorrow and Tuesday for travel. I should have regular internet access where I am going.

[Zdenek]

I'm back. I haven't worked though everything yet, and I am not going to bother commenting about Masin until he's finished reading through the game.

Some things:

I’m sorry but this answer still doesn’t satisfy me.

My impression is that you are asking questions about things that you actually want to know (although sometimes you ask people to repeat themselves), are remaining active, and keeping other people active and I don't see any scumminess in your play*, in particular you don't seem to be using your questions to cast unreasonable suspicion onto other people and you also don't seem to be trying to get people to slip up in their responses in the way that you are wording your questions. If that's not good enough for you, call it gut.

*yes I know that there is scum motivation for playing in that general style, but it's hard for scum to pull it off without coming across as scummy, and I disagree with Setael's comparison of your play with MoI's in ASOS.

Why didn't you ask Mastin how he arrived at his town read on you?

This is a misrepresentation. I don't find you scummy because you looked for alternative suspects. I'm suspicious of you because of your attitude toward C-worl. Not mentioning him much at all until asked while describing him as anti town instead of scummy. Could be scum not wanting to bus his buddy.

It is not a misrepresentation since that is not what you said. What you said was:

Zdenek 424 against CP - still doesn't mention cworl. Trying to swing momentum anywhere elseGood point

Also,

Zeds defense of him reads as scum doing what he can for his buddy by nudging town in another direction.

I find this attack completely disingenuous considering that yesterday you said:

Ideally something would be brought up that would start a wagon that gains enough support to be considered competitive to the c-worl wagon, sparking a whirlwind of discussion.

Jase, explain the distinction between scum-hunting and nudging the town in another direction, and how my play yesterday wasn't scum hunting.

[Zdenek]

V/LA until Sunday

[Zdenek]

So, I'm back, and it looks like I have to claim.

I'm a bodyguard. I protected Crazypianist both nights.

I'll get to reading the thread.

[Zdenek]

And THAT, my friends, is EXACTLY why I waited to hardclaim.

CONFIRM VOTE: Zdenek, CounterClaim: BodyGuard

.

You can hammer away, Pine.

Bullshit.

[Zdenek]

This is what I meant when I said I wouldn't be doing my job if I lived through the night. Since BodyGuards die if they choose the correct kill during the night. Meaning that I have a limited lifespan if I'm doing my job correctly and if I continue to live, I'm failing.

Or if as town and you're doing your job correctly (which you in particular pride yourself on) you should be nightkilled. It's a very convenient claim, and breadcrumb for you to use.

[Zdenek]

I had a good reason to protect CP.

[Zdenek]

I thought this was a cop breadcrumb.

Zdenek is leaving me not so pleased but I guess we'll see what comes of that.

and while I had issues with him, they weren't enough for me to ignore that.

[Zdenek]

The breadcrumb is that it looked like he was suggesting that he might investigate me.