Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Rhinox]

'sup everybody

[Rhinox]

/horny internet perv

Who me?????

a/s/l?

jk

sorta

[Rhinox]

And I think this is the first time I'm playing in a game with you, Rhinox? Should be fun.

Agreed!


-------------

All caught up. This game sure got off to a bang.

Empking seems town for proposing an idea that immediately makes him the center of attention. I don't believe it was some sort of wifomy gambit by scum to try to appear town by acting "too scummy to be scum".

Adumbro's response seems to be genuine and makes me think he is town. Unfortunately, he seems to have fallen into confirmation bias.

havingfitz response seems independent of his allignment. could be town who genuinely was against claiming, or could be scum who figured no one would go for the idea anyways and figured he could gain some townie points by arguing against what was sure to be an unpopular proposal by empking. I particularly don't like this particular statement:

I for one have nothing worth claiming

which can be taken many ways, but seems awfully suggestive coming from someone who wants nothing to do with mass claiming.

Fallen angel had an interesting response - seemed to humor the idea of mass claiming at first. singersigner ignored the proposal at first, then took a wishywashy wait and see approach. Confidincognito was also ok with mass claiming if the majority wanted it. hmmm... well, he gave good reasoning in post 77. lrdwhyt and nocmen seemed inquisitive about the mc proposal. lrdwhyt seemed to be trying to determine empkings motives in an attempt to get a read on him, while nocmen was more focused on getting information regarding the MC proposal itself.

I can't really say anything about davidparker or cruelty just yet. Incog seems to be off to a strong start this game, but I don't have an allignment read on him yet.

Yeah, VOTE: fallen angel.

First, goes along with empkings massclaim proposal. Then votes davidparker for thinking empking is town. Then posts this gem in regards to emp:

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Then by fallen's 12th post in iso, he's suggesting that empking is "misguided town" for pushing an unpopular idea, and referring to mass claim as if he were seemingly against it the whole time. What i mean is, statements like this:

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

seems to imply that he's acknowledging that mass claiming is something scum would typically suggest, but that contradicts his iso #3 where he said he saw no harm in mass claiming.

So, its a little early for this, but based on reactions to empking, which pretty much encompasses the first 9 pages:

scum

fallen angell

leaning scum

havingfitz
nocmen
davidparker

leaning town

incog
cruelty
lrdwhyt
singer

town

rhinox, of course
adumbro
empking

[Rhinox]

That said, Rhinox, why are singersigner and cruelty leaning town for you currently?

Well, lists are very rough at this stage of the game, so they're subject to change. That being said, I strongly think FA is scum, and I believe adumbro and empking are town. I think fitz, noc, and dp are scummiest of the players remaining, so by POE, the remaining 4 (incog, curelty, lrdwhyt, and singer) are probtown. Basically, it doesn't do me any good to have more than 4 scum suspects at a time in this game. There's probably no more than 3 scum in the game, so I already figure that (at least) 1 of my leaning scum reads is wrong. Don't be surprised if there are some changes between the "leaning" groups as I get more information throughout the game. It'll take a lot more to change the town and scum groups, though.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox...in post 201 you weigh in on the hot topic of D1 (Emp’s MC push) by saying (and I paraphrase) that he seems town for suggesting an idea that would be scummy and thus make him town because scum would not try to come across as town by proposing a plan so scummy scum would never do it (aka WIFOM). Which of course would make it a good suggestion for scum to make. Or not. Or maybe.

No, your paraphrase is wrong. Empking is town for suggesting an idea that makes him the center of attention. I never said the suggestion was scummy. I never said it wasn't. But scum generally don't like to be the center of attention. Therefore, players that put themselves under scrutiny intentionally I generally view as town.

Now, is it possible scum would put themselves under a lot of suspicion in an attempt to look town? Possibly. But I think scum would rather look town while avoiding suspicion.

‘independent of my alignment’...(WTH does that mean?)

It means I could see your response coming from either town or scum.

A day later Adumbro chimes in with a similar opinion (and Emp vote) and you rate his response genuine and call him town.
<snip>
I am leaning scum for opposing a bad idea & WIFOM, and AD is town for opposing a bad idea (wait...isn’t that what I was doing?).

Yes, I think adumbro is genuinely town. He genuinely thinks empking is scum. I think he is trying too hard to make up for what he perceives as a bad performance in /invitation 11 which I was a part of, and is now trying a little too hard. I think he is town with confirmation bias towards empking, which can be a distraction if it continues, but he is town nonetheless.

You on the otherhand... well, I take more into account than just the general idea of your response. For example, you say you are against mass claim and it is scummy to suggest mass claim. And then you say, "I mean, I have nothing to claim..." and this:

How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.

You're acting like something changed between yesterday when I made the list and today when I said DP is in the scummiest of the players remaining category. Nothing changed. He was in the same catogory when I made the list. Thats why I put him where I did.

You're acting as if because I didn't have anything to say about both cruely and DP that my reads of them should be the same. Thats just not the case. I've identified who I think is scum for sure, and who I think is town for sure, and then placed the remaining players where I think they should be based on what information I have at the moment. Some people have got to be scum, and some people have got to be town. If you have a problem with where I placed someone, you can ask for clarification. At this stage of the game, I can tell you that I placed everyone (except for you) on mostly gut instinct based on how I felt while reading the thread, as if I forced myself to take 4 guesses at scum.

---------------------------------

@Rhinox, can I have more details about why you think Adumbro is town? Espeicaly if you think it'll take a lot to change his opinion to you.

I touched on this in my respnse to fitz. IS that what you were looking for?

---------------------------------

HF: Or Cruelty. Yes so far my scum reads have been on people that are against mass claim (AKA everyone) but I think there's an obvious reason for that (a clue is hidden in this very post)

I never said I was against mass claiming. In fact, I'm surprised nobody asked me what I thought of the idea.

I just came out of /invitation 11 which was semi open where mass claiming early D0 was a hot topic. There, and here, I'm mostly against it just out of tradition - i.e. mass claiming early is not how its usually done around here.

I think in a semi open or open game, mass claiming early has some upsides. You can increase the town's EV of winning by essentially having "named townies" and narrowing down lynch pools, and forcing scum to make a decision early - thats not to say that the EV could be inproved more with keepign the roles hidden, or the EV could even be reduced if the roles do stay hidden but make poor choices. with mass claiming in that situation though, you know what you get.

In a closed game, I can come up with the down side of letting scum know who the PR's are, but I think the benefits disappear, except for forcing scum into a claim early. I'm not sure there is enough information known about the setup at the start of the game to determine if MC improves the town's EV of winning. We don't know how many PR claims there should be, we don't know (for sure, but we can guess) how many scum there are, and we don't know what PR claims to expect. That makes narrowing down the lynch choices by the claims difficult, if not impossible.

But, maybe I'm just not looking at it the right way or missing ways it could help the town. I'm all for trying out new strategies. I think I was in one of the first games on the site where we didn't have a RVS and instead went with a RQS. I once tried to claim 3rd party sk as town to prevent my mislynch in a LyLo situation where a scum faketracked me to a kill and the town was buying it. I don't know for sure that mass claiming is a bad strategy, but I can't identify ways that make it a better strategy than not mass claiming. But I would still try it in a game at least once in order to see how it turned out and to identify the potential of using such a strategy in more games.

[Rhinox]

Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.

Nearly everyone one of your posts is about emp. Nearly all of your responses to others are regarding emp. Your in crazy paranoia land that "just because emp has a scummy he's going to manipulate us all and we're not even going to realize" - which is BS by the way. Your superbold screaming at us.

All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

So I'm up to your post 31 in iso and pretty much all you said is in regards to mass claim.

I think I've said enough on the topic of confirmation bias...

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.

pro-tip: this was the point where you were supposed to say "hey rhinox, didn't you call DGB town in /invitational 11 for doing something questionable D0 to garner a lot of suspicion and become the center of attention and she was actually scum". Let me answer this by referring to a different quote of yours.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.

I think you've got it backwards. Town doesn't care if they look scummy because they're not (supposed to be) concerned with survival, they're concerned with catching scum. (that doesn't mean townies should throw all caution to the wind, but there is an entire thread in the MD about this...) Scum on the other hand, want to blend in, look town, and survive.

While there are some players who will do things to stand out as scum, in general, it's avoided. Look at plum's play in /invitiational 11 - and she's the one who should get a scummy for that game, not DGB, who got lynched.

So its just not good play for scum to intentionally put themselves in the center of attention and under heavy suspicion.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Unless someone voluntarily offers up a claim other than VT, with no prompting other than the possible L-1, I have a hard time believing anyone would say, oh hey, mass claim, time to out myself as a PR! As scum, I don't think I would afford trusting anyone's soft-claims as a VT. PR's want to hide, right? Whether or not they make a point of saying "I have nothing to claim" is WIFOM.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I'm waaaaay too tired to double check that this made sense, and reading over it again, it probably doesn't, but I just needed to get my thoughts on that out there. I'll clarify tomorrow if I need to.

I think you guys are not understanding how a mass claim works. If everyone agrees to a mass claim and its done, you actually claim your role. You don't claim VT as town. If later, someone says no don't lynch me I'm not a VT I'm actually a <whatever>, they get lynched. Otherwise, mass claim is pretty pointless.

Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim". If the idea is to make the scum question whether or not you are a PR, you can do that by not revealing any hints about your role at all.

[Rhinox]

And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is as evidence that you're town.

I would think you'd be looking into both fallenangel and confidanon/incognito, as both of them initially humored the idea of a mass claim. Do you think anyone in the game fits the description of "staying quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed."

Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?

Look around... there's a number of people who find empking scummy. So obviously, empking isn't "scum who knew no one would suspect him for suggesting mass claim, so hi did it to look town."

Question to all. Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Not that I remember.

If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim.

Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim". If the idea is to make the scum question whether or not you are a PR, you can do that by not revealing any hints about your role at all.

In other words, regardless of your role, if you're town and did not support mass claim, I would expect you to say "I don not support a mass claim" and move on. Not, "I don't have anything to claim, so I don't support a mass claim."

[Rhinox]

1. This situation isn't the case so why bring it up. Not everyone opposed the claim initially (not sure where everyone stands currently).

Strawman much Rhinox?

Using a buzzword in bold text to try to make me look bad, havingfitz?

(protip, if I stopped there, THAT would be a strawman).

I brought it up because 1) you meant a statement that made an implication about how you thought scum would react to empkings MC proposal, but I have not seen you questioning any of the players that acted the way you perceived that scum would act, and 2) I exaggerated with the

everyone

bit to hopefully get you to recognize the awful WIFOM you used to basically say "this is why I'm not scum" without having to resort to shouting "HAY TATS WYE-FAWM!", and because due to #1, I was curious if you were aware of any of the reactions to empkings proposal at all.

2. I'm not using my reply to

confirm

I'm town. I'm saying the immediate opposition was more of a town reaction IMO than some of the other reactions which you proceed to acknoledge in #3 above.

Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is

as evidence that

you're town.

Bit of a difference in meaning between the statement I made and the way I interpretted. Instead of addressing the issue that the statement you made is wifom and that makes reacting to empking's MC proposal negatively NOT necessarily a town-only reaction, you

strawman

the point and try to turn it into a semantics argument.

See wat I did thar?

3. OK...now that you have confirmed your 1st comment doesn't apply in this game, yes...FA and CA's responses could merit a closer look. As would Lrdwhyt for his general lack of a stance (in the beginngin at least...I have not scoured the entire game for changes of opinion), singersigner's avoidance of any MC position initially (post 24) followed by a lack of any position on it in post 40. Then there is your predecessor's complete lack of comment on the matter in his initial post (61).

Now we're getting some where. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with when you take a closer look at these players.

How is your comment relavent? It's based on the current situation which Emp had no sight of when he would have had to make his MC push...unless Empscum had a crystal ball.

Ummm... its as relevent as your comment. Your comment ("Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?") assumes that empking is scum who KNEW that no one would suspect him of being scum for suggesting mass claim, which as you kindly already pointed out to me, he couldn't have known because he does not have a crystal ball.

On the other hand, one could assume that it is very likely suggesting a mass claim at the beginning of day 1 was going to receive a ton of negative attention at the very least because site meta believes that early mass claiming is suicide for town ("oh noes how will we win without PRs...."), and quite possibly could be enough negative attention to lead to a lynch, so why would scum every do that?

See, here's the kicker that you empking is scum people aren't realizing. If coming to the conclusion that empking is town is not allowed because its wifom, guess what. The converse - coming to the conclusion that empking is scum - is equally wifomtastic. What I'm trying to say is, its just as valid for me to come to the conclusion that emp is likely town for his suggestion as it is for you to come to the conclusion that he's likely scum. If you want to scream wifom at me, then you've got to be willing to accept that the wifom makes the "tell" null. Otherwise you're just being hypocritical.

My point it I do not think the choice of words I used indicates whether or not I have a PR. If you think it is a VT claim that is your opinion. Coupled with the fact there has been no other claims...if scum were to infer from my comments that I was saying I was VT...that's as much WIFOM for them to consider as it would be for town to consider with Empscum MC push. So it's a wash IMO.

Look, I knew whether you were vanilla, PR, or scum, as soon as I suggested that "I have nothing to claim" meant a vanilla claim you would deny it. That wasn't the point I was trying to make, so let me start over.

After empkings MC proposal, you posted this:

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

Which i (accurately, IMO) read as this.

I disagree with the MC idea and here are 3 reasons why:

1: I have nothing to claim
2: scum aren't going to claim
3: any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

But I'm happy to listen to your rationale, or was it just lolreactions?

This is just an odd way to object to the proposal in general. 1 and 2 don't make any sense at all as reasons to object to mass claiming. They may be true statements, but they don't explain why mass claiming is bad, or not mass claiming is good. 3 is odd because you imply that PR's will lie and not actually claim their role. The whole post just seems odd and not said in a way I'd expect town to react.

Hey, why should we listen to you? WTH are you trying to do? Massclaiming is a horrible idea, it'll just let scum know the PR's. I'm not giving you any role information, and you better have good reasoning. Were you just looking for reactions?

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: I think your method just seems weird to me so far. I mean, when I come into a game, I'll pretty much only stick my neck out and call people "town" if there are things in their play that genuinely gave me a townish vibe. It could be gut or something else they've said or done or whatever, but I usually have something that I could point to that says, yeah, this guy is probably town. You seem to pick people who you think are scum and then insert the rest of your reads as prob-town unless you got a really strong vibe that you thought they were town in which case they're strong town? I've just never heard of that - people who I have no read on usually go in the neutral category for me. Is this really typical of you?

I have called empking and adumbro town - empking for his MC suggestion, and adumbro for the way he attacked empking. I have called FA scum because he made me think he is scum. If it makes you feel better, you can call everyone else neutral. I just thought it wouldn't hurt to give a little more insight into how I was thinking, even if some of it was based on nothing but gut at the time.

As for is this typical of me? I don't know. At the start of this game, I had just returned to the site after being gone for a while. So, my play has been a work in progress. I would say that lately I've been going more with my instincts and sticking to them, for better or worse. /invitation 11 and Mad world: time travel mafia are the 2 games I've been in that are completed since I returned to the site if you want to check them out. Oh, and Open 231: My Name is Earl, a quick little game. Almost forgot about that one.

---------------------------------------------------

Regarding the Rhinox - me exchange...what are your thoughts on Rhinox's strawman of my suspicions towards Emp and his continued distortion of my position on Emp?

You just going to ignore that #229 exists then? I mean thats fine if you want to drop it, I was starting to get the feeling I was arguing with a townie anyways, but not if you're going to ignore it and throw around accusations that I already answered to and force me to answer again. Because I didn't strawman anybody, and I don't believe I've distorted your position on Emp either.

edit: err, yeah, what incog said

---------------------------------------------------

Lrdwhyt:

Except he wouldn't know that he would be the center of attention immediately when he first proposed the idea. It doesn't really mean much.
<snip>
It is conceivable that he thought it would succeed.
<snip>
Once again, he didn't necessarily know what would follow his suggestion. That does not mean anything.

I disagree with you. While Empking might have thought he could have eventually got the town to agree with him and he might even think mass claiming is the best strategy, he didn't even try to back up his proposal with solid reasoning or really try to convince anyone. That tells me the proposal was more of a "kick start the game" type of proposal, rather than an earnest proposal. I mean, do you really think scum goes "oh hai mass claim time we should do it because its the best plan because it is" and just expects everyone to follow along without question? That'd be naive for empking to think that, and its lazy scumhunting to think that makes empking scum.

I somehow doubt that. Empking keeps arguing that a mass claim is a good idea, when it clearly isn't. If he were town and reaction testing, I'd expect him to at least drop the mass claim arguments and provide some sort of analysis of the information he's gotten...but he hasn't.

see, right here. So you're saying you expect scum to keep arguing for an unpopular course of action that has half the town calling for his head?

---------------------------------------------------

Also...I don't know what scaremongering is...

Its basically an appeal to game-fears. Such as, (for example only, obv), "Empking is a such a good scum player we have to lynch him otherwise he will manipulate us all!!! I don't think its a very good tell though in most cases. More of a wikitell.

Cruelty, what do you think of adumbro's early (paraphrasing) "Empking can easily manipulate us because he has a scummy!" outburst? Isn't that scaremongering as well? Why didn't you mention that at all? If I were going to vote someone for scare mongering and not give any other reasoning, adumbro is a much bigger offender.

---------------------------------------------------

I just ISO'd Fallen Angel and I do not see the case on him. I would definitely not have him near the top of my scum list...like I'm leaning towards for those who are on his wagon at the moment.

Big surprise there

So wait, we go through the whole back and forth earlier about how you think scum would "at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it." and then you don't see

anything

in FA's iso that mimics that?

[Rhinox]

you're basically saying that if DP claims we can't take it seriously. setting a precedent of distrust before it's even an issue.

Cruelty, what do you think of adumbro's early (paraphrasing) "Empking can easily manipulate us because he has a scummy!" outburst? Isn't that scaremongering as well? Why didn't you mention that at all? If I were going to vote someone for scare mongering and not give any other reasoning, adumbro is a much bigger offender.

[Rhinox]

@rhinox

sorry missed that.

yes, AD is also scaremongering, but i tend to think that singer is being more opportunistic - there's clearly some kind of support for a DP policy lynch, people tend to agree that he may well be detrimental for town. thus, singer gives me worse vibes.

Well, first off I just thought it was odd that you didn't even mention AD at all before voting singer for scaremongering and not giving any other reasoning or clarification.

Secondly, now that you explain more with regards to singer, I think I disagree with you. I don't really see any support for a DP "policy" lynch. The only player I remember even mentioning something like that was singer herself, but maybe I'm wrong. Her "Random Vote" was a semi-serious policy vote on DP, and her iso #2 introduced the idea that any claims DP makes can not be trusted. Its not like she just happened to notice that there was some support for a DP policy lynch and decided to opportunistically try to make DP seem untrustworthy - she has been tooting that horn unashamedly all game. I don't see anything opportunistic about singer's "scaremongering".

Furthermore, how is singer referencing her own personal meta experience with DP that she has been in 3 games with DP where he has fake claimed as VT, any different than any other player who ever referenced meta on anybody. I don't see this as any different than calling someone scum for meta reasoning, which by your definition would be scaremongering. So what I mean is, what makes this "scummy fear-mongering" if its actually true and backed up?

What I'm really getting at here, is, IMO, adumbro was actually fearmongering when he went on his tirade about empking being better than the rest of us mere mortals, where as singer was referencing meta to flat out tells us she wouldn't trust DP's claim regardless of his allignment, and that is no different than any other meta considerations. singer didn't actually set the precedent for distrust, DP himself did in previous games - while adumbro was trying to set the precedent for distrust of empking based on nothing but the icon under his user name. The fact that you singled out singer for fearmongering while not mentioning adumbro seems like you were opportunistically jumping on a singer, who has been receiving increasingly greater suspicions, with a buzzword wikitell case.

New List Time!

scum

FA
Cruelty

leaning scum

nocmen
DP

leaning town

lrdwhyt
incog
singer
havingfitz

town

empking
adumbro

[Rhinox]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fallen angel


Fine, EMP for tomorrow then, not letting a no lynch happen.

Only way we would have a no lynch is if we vote one or there is a tie. Might want to give the rules a glance.

[05] DEADLINE LYNCH RULES: At deadline, a person will be lynched if they have a majority of voters voting for them. That means you can be lynched with just one vote if only one person is voting. If no one has a majority of the votes cast, it is a no-lynch.

Player A: 4 votes
Player B: 3 votes
Player C: 3 votes

Deadline hits.

No one is lynched because 4 is not a majority of 10 votes cast. It is a plurality.

In this game, there are currently 11 votes cast. A majority of 11 votes is 6. If no player receives 6 votes with all 11 of us voting, no one will be lynched. According to my understanding of the rules anyways.

[Rhinox]

vote Corvuus

The fact that the FA lynch didn't happen and no lynch was allowed to happen makes me think it is even more likely FA/Corvuus is scum and his buddies didn't vote for him to allow a no-lynch to happen.

{havingfitz, lrdwhyt, cruelty, nocmen, DP} - there are definitely scum here for allowing the mislynch to happen, whatever corvuus' allignment is.

[Rhinox]

No just a simple mistake. I said no lynch in the line above.

If you were sure it was a slip and I'm scum, then you would have voted me. You threw it out there and you're waiting to see if the rest of the town goes along with it before committing to it.

[Rhinox]

@ Rhinox...your little list of potential scum for letting the FA "mislynch" not take place (and I'm quite certin you meant to say lynch) is no differnt than saying the people on the FA wagon (to include yourself MrSlip) probably contain scum for not being on the scumEmp wagon. I think a Rhinox-Emp combo (plus perhaps singer???) has some merit.

FA was at L-1 at deadline. Emp had 2 votes at deadline. So how do you justify calling out people on the FA wagon for not voting empking? That doesn't make any sense, especially since you would have to equally call out everyone else not voting FA or empking. So... {corvuus, Incognito, AdumbroDeus, Rhinox, DavidParker, cruelty, singersigner, Nocmen} are all scummy for not lynching emp at deadline?

[Rhinox]

@Corvuus and Havingfitz:

I didn't argue that corvuus' allignment doesn't matter. I think a deadline no-lynch is more likely to happen if the person about to be lynched is scum rather than town, which is why I'm still voting you, but I think scum are more likely to allow a no lynch than town regardless of the allignment of the person being wagoned, so the players who allowed the no lynch to occur do not get to be off the hook if you flip town.

This is because of the way things usually go around the site here, no lynches are bad on D1 and players are "allowed" to vote at deadline only for the sake of a lynch, usually without any backlash, even if they hadn't set a precedent for thinking the player being lynched was scummy. Scum, IMO, would be more likely to hammer a townie in this situation rather than risk looking scummy for allowing a no lynch to happen - unless the person about to be lynched is their scum partner.

When I said there are definitely scum in the group not voting FA at deadline, what I mean is that I believe 2 out of an assumed 3 scum are in that group, but if corvuus is town, possibly even all 3. I didn't mean that there is at least 1 scum there, which would be pretty obvious for the reasons fitz gave.

No, go back and read. He did repeatedly say that massclaiming was a good idea, after the first time, making it sound like a genuine proposal rather than just a reaction test type thing.

Yes, but he never attempted to justify why or convince anyone else that it was the best idea, IMO. I just don't think empking is naive enough to think he was really going to convince anyone to massclaim without justification.

I wish you guys would go back and look at FA's iso. Its short enough where it shouldn't be a problem. He starts out "seeing no harm" with mass claiming and says "if we mass claim, wait til everyone has confirmed" as if he's planning for mass claiming. Thats not something that someone who is not sure about the idea or thinks it could be a bad idea would say. He even spoke some words in support of it in his iso #4.

Through FA's posts, he progressively distances from the fact that he humored the idea of massclaiming, I believe because he saw how much backlash empking was getting for the idea. By his iso 12 he's calling empking misguided town and calling it questionable for an innocent player to propose mass claiming [something that seems like a scum move].

Apart from the empking stuff, he says in iso #8 that "its far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum", but in iso #10 on the same RL day, he calls DavidParker "clearly scummy".

note to all: I'll have limited access through the holiday weekend. Traveling to Boston for thanksgiving, leaving tonight. Returning sunday evening. I might be able to make short posts from my phone while I'm away. I probably won't return to full activity until tuesday. Posting this in all my games.

[Rhinox]

I miss incog already

[Rhinox]

neko-mostly skimmed your iso catch up (kinda hard to follow along with the numbers without having 2 windows open following along) but regarding the parts mentioning me, the only thing I want to say right now is that I never actually voted cruelty but if corvuus is not going to be lynched (unlikely now that incog's support is gone), cruelty would be my 2nd choice.

[Rhinox]

yeah I'm still limited access until tomorrow, but I'm trying to get caught up on my games now while at work. It just took me like 6 hours to form one decent post for another game so don't expect anything too significant until tonight/tomorrow.

[Rhinox]

ugh, singer. Her last post was stereotypically the most scummy thing she could have said. I don't think she's scum though.

My money's on Antihero, Nocmen, and corvuus at the moment.

That day 1 FA wagon = really, really stupid

fallen angel (5) –

Rhinox, singersigner

, Empking, Incognito, AdumbroDeus

Oh, look. Scum.

If the wagon was stupid, why aren't scum in the later votes, you know the ones that actually made it a wagon, rather than just a vote or 2.

singersigner (2) - cruelty,

Nocmen

hahahaha

More scum

oh, look. Distancing.


Seriously, you're voting singer because you think she's scum, but Nocmen is scummy for voting singer? Not to mention in the vote count you quoted, your predecessor was sitting there right next to nocmen's name. I literally can't think of a single justifying reason for you to call nocmen scum there other than distancing from your scum partner.

Cruelty was already my #2 suspect, so if corvuus lynch isn't going to happen,

unvote, vote antihero

[Rhinox]

Well I was just about to recommend that singer post her thoughts as despite her opinion...her death was emminent IMO since she was at L-1 and at least one of the people off her wagon (moi) had her in their top two. DP's recent unvote however takes her one step further from death at the moment.

Deadline in 3 days...are we really going to get a non-singer lynch or are we looking at another no-lynch?

3 days is plenty of time for a non-singer lynch if there is a case and support, but its not going to be on empking.

[Rhinox]

oh sweet corvuus lynch back on thanks to scott brocius.

unvote, vote corvuus

Can you explain what you mean corvuus because the more you talk about cake I just keep getting hungry.

I think you are scum and your scumbuddies got away with letting a no lynch happen rather than hammering you.

I honestly didn't look at the vote counts before seeing the anti-nocmen potential connection, so I'll have to consider whether I'd have expected cruelty and nocmen to to vote empking or leave their vote where it was.

Cruelty didn't post between the 2 vote counts, and was then replaced. Its possible he had already flaked and therefore that would explain why he didn't vote emp, because cruelty did vote and suspect empking earlier in the game, so a vote there wouldn't have looked out of place.

Looking at nocmen, he posted and made a choice to not vote empking OR you, and left his vote on singer with only hours left until deadline, thus basically allowing a no lynch to happen. But this was after incog voted you and made you the biggest wagon, so were nocmen scum with you, he would have to have thought there was a possibility he was allowing FA to get lynched without supporting the counterwagon.

Thinking about it more, this being an 11 player game, there is probably not a 3-man scum team, so it was probably a little premature to call out anti and nocmen as part of a scum team with you and more likely anti was just taking a potshot at nocmen there. Had I been less hasty, I should have realized that.

[Rhinox]

corvuus: You/FA is scum for

A) FA's reaction to the mass claim:

- "I don't see anything wrong with it, if we mass claim blah blah blah, whoa empking you can't just say its a good idea without explaining why, btw here are some ideas I think it could be a good idea"

-to, over the course of the day-

- "oh hey, empking is probably just misguided town, mass claim is really a scummy idea afterall so empking-scum wouldn't have propesed it.

- without any explaination for shifting from being ok with the massclaim to calling it a bad idea, although my guess is FA saw the reaction empking was getting so dropped his support of the idea and blended in with the town.

B) This string of posts:

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's [empking] obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be,

but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

In my eyes, you're either scum (and therefore know empking is town), or are tunnel-visioning his innocence. Either way, it's bad for the town.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know.

However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Because he's criticizing adumbro for his certainty in calling empking scum, but then a few posts and only a few hours later calls DP clearly scummy himself.

And I don't believe I've taken anything out of context here as you claim in #346.

C) FA wasn't hammered, because scum would rather let a no lynch than happen then hammer a scum partner, when scum could easily hammer hypo-town FA without any negative consequences.

Rhinox, I can't really find any reasons you've given for thinking singer isn't scum, other than perhaps by process of elimination. Is that what it is?

Yeah, thats part of it. Another part is that she was voting FA at deadline yesterday, FA/corvuus, my strongest scum read, rather than empking, a strong townread. And a big part is that looking through her posts, I really don't see anything really all that damning. The refusing to claim part was probably the worst stereotypically, but in practice I really don't think thats what scum does there. Can someone sum up the case for me in a succint format?

[Rhinox]

corvuus, we seem to be interpretting things differently.

With A) I'm reading between the lines and seeing FA go from "ooooooooh lookie mass claim uh sure looks ok" to "ummm yeah ur right town its a pretty scummy idea but emp is still town (psssst scumbuddies lets not get emp lynched because he's suggesting stuff I think helps scum plus looks like he'll be an easy lynch later)" and I never anywhere saw FA give a reason for why MC ended up being a bad idea in his view but I did see him give reasons for support early on.

With B) I'm seeing "hay its too early to call ANYONE scum let alone empking" *hrs later* "DP is clearly scum"

With C) I'm not eating cake because if scum were already voting empking or singer for example, they can't just magically generate more votes. DP is the one who was on neither of those wagons and if he was your scum partner then yes, I would have expected him to vote empking or singer, but of the 5 players plus you I suspect of being scum, he's at the bottom of my suspicions anyways. If cruelty or nocmen are scum maybe I expect them to move their vote to empking but cruelty may have already been MIA. Nocmen on the other hand chose to leave his vote on singer so unless he was really banking on a no lynch, hanging you out to dry, or trying to avoid looking scummy for voting empking rather than you should you die first and flip scum down the road - 3 options that I can't definitively say are unlikely, as your scum partner I'd have expected an empking vote from him. Leaving his vote on singer at the time, with singer being the 3rd wagon, was essentially allowing the no-lynch to happen. Fitz and lrdwhyt were both already voting empking. Nothing they can do as your partner except hope for a no lynch, or bus. They're not just going to magically get more votes, although maaaybe I could see switching to singer but thats aborting the #2 wagon for the #3 wagon where there was already less support and also would end up looking scummy if you at some point flips scum. fitz was around at deadline and seemed to express that he felt your lynch was going to happen per the deadline rules even though I tried to clear that up before deadline actually hit, but he very well could have hammered to make sure the lynch happened.

[Rhinox]

But if you force the scummy players to claim early, like you agreed above. If scum false-claims a power role, then it can be counterclaimed. If we lynch the actual power role, and scum counterclaimed, we lynch them the next day. That's what happened my first game, and it ended pretty well. http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 7f898e2fd3. As for the vanilla townie lynching pool, that's basically unavoidable, regardless of what day there's a mass claim. There's always uncertainty about who you're lynching, without a cop confirmation.

^^^FA in support of massclaim

your turn, show me where FA explained why MC was scummy.

Wow. You got a pretty strong read on an VLA player there and you switched from 'too early' to "i'm pretty certain about the town and scum groups".

Nice.

wow talk about a misrep. I said it was "a little" early for lists, not "too early for reads".

You support massclaiming more than FA EVER did and I don't understand why people think you are town when you are accusing and suspecting FA for something he didn't do but that you yourself did. That and your blatant buddying/defense (EMP wouldn't do that as scum, blah blah).

Not true. I didn't support it because I wasn't around when it was suggested. I gave my views on it well after the MC consideration was past. That said, I don't think FA/you are scum for supporting mass claim, I think FA/you are scum for first supporting it and then calling it a scummy plan for no other reason other than that's what the town decided.

umm... they had 10 days from FA going VLA, 6 days from you placing the first vote on him and they could have generated 'content'/wagon on EMP (who is really anti-town) or singer or DP or whoever you imagine is/isn't FA scumbuddy. Unless you are suggesting that all of the wagons were scum, then there is no reason for you to believe that scum "threw their hands up into the air" and said "well, FA is screwed. I mean, there is no case on him and Rhinox and EMP are scummy, DP/singer is scummy but we can't do anything about it except be paralyzed and wait and hope that a no lynch occurs because people may not understand the fine print of the deadline lynch rules.

now cmon, a player like having fitz spent all day arguing for a empking lynch, and with 5.5 hrs left after FA became the leading wagon, what is he supposed to do to swing a empking lynch then, if he's your scumbuddy? same for anyone else - there were players arguing for lynches other than you.nobody was sitting around for a week riding of FA as screwed. If you think thats what I said, you are truly flailing now.


By the way, anyone else plan onm chiming in here? we need to decide on a leading wagon. My prefence is corvuus obviously, but I would support a anti or singer lynch at deadline for the sake of a lynch at this point.

[Rhinox]

^^^ made me lol.

Can we please lynch the flailing scum now?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, the case on Singer for me is partly that for a large part of the game, she has posted fairly consistently, and yet she has contributed very little of substance. Of course, there are three other people for whom the same thing could be said (DP, Anti, Lrd). The difference is that aside from Anti recently, there has been no real interest in pursuing any of these. What bothers me the most about her, though, is precisely her vote on FA. Even though you yourself suspect FA/Corv, did the manner of her vote on him not strike you in particular as odd?

The fact that singer is included in a group of 4 players for contibuting very little substance yet singer is the 1 of the 4 where the lynch is being pursued makes me think even more strongly that if there is scum in that group of 4 you mentioned, its probably not singer.

And I don't see a problem with her vote at all as long as long as corvuus flips scum. If corvuus is town, then I have to consider whether that vote looks opportunistic, and possibly buddying up to me, which I have always been a sucker for.

[Rhinox]

My god corvuus just shut up and die already! This is just getting to be annoying!

<3

Calling someone town =/= buddying
If corvuus flips town =/= planning for your mislynch

lol I can't be buddying to empking if I'm his scum partner as you say. Or are you trying to have cake and eat it too?

You are flailing and throwing everything you've got at me to get me lynched instead of you. I commend the effort, but I think enough is enough.

[Rhinox]

UGH DAMNIT I really want corvuus lynched but then nocmen comes in with what looks like an incredibly opportunistic vote that makes me doubt my read entirely. Because I don't think its bussing.

[Rhinox]

so..........

{havingfitz, lrdwhyt,

cruelty

antihero, nocmen, DP} from D1 wagon analysis

cross checked with...

{neko2086, Antihero, havingfitz, DavidParker, Nocmen} D2 singer wagon

Why am I not suprised to see nearly all of the same names?

vote: Nocmen

As much as it pains me that corvuus is STILL not dead, I think nocmen surpassed corvuus on my scum list due to a few comments at the end of the day

1) voting corvuus and being ok with his lynch d2 by parroting reasons I gave d1 and weren't enough for nocmen to lynch him then.
2) then switching to the singer mislynch

[Rhinox]

To: Mr. Wright and Corvuus and anyone else who said something along this line in the last 2 pages:

Not speaking for anyone else, but my vote on Nocmen has nothing to do with Corvuus' allignment. Its not because I think he's his scumbuddy or anything.

Its because Nocmen did not vote for Corvuus on D1 and allowed the mislynch to happen, but was then willing to lynch corvuus on D2 for the same reasons I already detailed on D1, only he reacted as if it were some new thing he was hearing for the first time.

I will grant that the switch from corv to singer looks a hell of a lot scummier if there is a corvuus-scum lynch first, but Nocmen being scum is not dependent on corvuus being scum.

[Rhinox]

I'm starting to wonder how much longer I can see Corvuus sitting there at L-1 and not throw down a hammer...

...but I don't like where all the votes are currently. more townie reads off the wagon, and more scummy reads on it.

[Rhinox]

Welcome Haylen and Fenhl. Looking forward to what you both come up with when you finish your reads.

[Rhinox]

fitz: why did you ask haylen to unvote in 594, and then in 602, you say her (and others) should vote one of DP or corvuus? By the way, deadline is still 5 days away, and while there will be some inactivity for xmas, that doesn't mean its now time to limit our choices to the top 2 wagons.

I really should support a corvuus lynch. After what happened D1 and D2, I would really be hating life if corvuus goes on to win the game as scum. But, I just have a really bad feeling today that he might not be scum.

I think 1 or both of haylen and fenhl could be scum.

Fenhl: The biggest thing I don't like is in post 595:

@Corvuus: As Empking said, you really should claim, since we are less than a week away from deadline and I've seen people hammer for not claiming at L-1.

VOTE: Empking

He's voting empking, but he asks Corvuus to claim. There shouldn't be any reason to ask corvuus for a claim if he doesn't intent to vote/lynch him.

I also don't like how he is slowly catching up, but throwing in potshots at empking, and not commenting on anything else. And, prod avoidance posts within a few days of replacing in before being even halfway caught up doesn't look good either.

I don't recall thinking strongly either way about either of fenhl's predecessors.

Haylen: starts out with some points regarding FA/Corvuus. At the end, says she would vote him at this point. The next 2 posts don't contain any game content, but she unvotes corvuus to appease havingfitz in her iso #2 even though in her first post in the game she said she would vote corvuus.

I was not a big fan of either of haylen's active predecessors. Cruelty and antihero were both pretty scummy.

Nocmen is still my first pick today for reasons I've already given. If I had to pick a 3 person scum team right now, it would be Nocmen, Haylen, and 1 of {fenhl, dp, empking, corvuus}

DP and empking made the list because I feel like they've sort of been coasting. Because of the votes that were on corvuus (Nocmen, Emp, DP, and haylen) and DP (neko, fitz, corv), I think I would have to side with my 2 strongest town reads and vote DP if I was absolutely forced to pick between the top 2 wagons. But I want to be clear that Nocmen and Haylen are my 1 and 2 picks, and DP falls somewhere in the 3-6 realm. I really don't want to lynch either corv or DP right now.

mod: you have fenhl listed twice in the recent VC. I think the fenhl not voting should be haylen.

Thanks, fixed.

[Rhinox]

I just felt like pointing out that Corvuus was in danger of being hammered. I did not think of that post as explicitly asking Corvuus to claim, since Empking already did that.

@Corvuus: As Empking said,

you really should claim

, since we are less than a week away from deadline and I've seen people hammer for not claiming at L-1.

Looks like a request to claim to me *shrug*.

The only players I have ISO'd are Empking and singersinger.

You've read through at least page 9 according to what you've said. Why do you need to iso someone before you can make any comment on them? Shouldn't you read everyone before deciding which player is the scummiest and voting?

[Rhinox]

prodded again?

I'll post some stuff later but for now,

just reminding everyone of the V/LA notice posted in my sig that has been there all game. For whoever hasn't noticed or has sigs turned off, I am V/LA on weekends, sometimes I can post, sometimes I can't, and considering the holiday this weekend I couldn't. I pretty much always get caught up and post on mondays, so I would appreciate holding off on the prods until I get a chance to post. If I haven't posted by tuesdays, go ahead and prod me then.

[Rhinox]

Bah, this game.

uh, so lets see, 8 of us are alive out of 11. There's probably a 2-scum team, as 3 has been shown to be unbalanced towards scum in 12p games. If there is a 3-scum team, it is MyLo. Just FYI. I keep forgetting this is an 11p game.

At this point, I really don't know if there is a bad lynch out there, other than maybe neko.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, what happened? I thought you would be posting again.

I was... not going to make any excuses, just wasn't around at deadline.

DP, Haylen, Rhinox: comments/thoughts on Fenhl plz.

in this post, still valid

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, didn't you like doing graphical interfaces of voting patterns, etc.? Do you still think EMP is town?

I don't know. I've grown frustrated an exhausted with this game and the town's inability to get anything done. I am to blame as well as others. I have no idea who scum are, but I don't think its you or neko atm. I think there are probably only 2 scum, and haylen + nocmen were my top 2 choices yesterday. So...

vote: Haylen

[Rhinox]

Apologies, I'll get caught up tomorrow. Posting to avoid prod.

[Rhinox]

I disagree with no-lynching. I don't think we are in mylo right now. 9-3 12p mini normals are historically imbalanced in favor of scum. In order to be in mylo right now, this would have to be an 8-3 11p game, which in theory should be even more unbalanced in favor of scum. There hasn't been any extra kills, so a thrid party killing role is out of the question. Being a normal game, any other anti-town third party non-killing roles won't be in here. All of this points to the setup being 9-2. Remember Llama, this was an 11p game to start. NOT a normal 12p.

On top of that, we've already no-lynched twice this game. We need to lynch today, not to rectify a problem, but because without seeing town-directed flips, this town will continue to be paralyzed. Also, if we no-lynch today, I don't expect any of my top suspects to be nked, so no-lynching will not help me.


On that ground, recently I was asked:

Why am I one of your top choices, Rhinox?

The answer is for the same reasons you were one of my top choices yesterday, outlined in this post. Mostly not so much your actions, but your predecessors.

[Rhinox]

VT as well.

And I think neko is last.

[Rhinox]

hmph... never suspected neko at all. Llama/fenhl scum doesn't surprise me. I'm glad corvuus wasn't scum in the end. It was pretty painful to be a part of this town. Thanks to fishy for keeping the game going, and congrats to the scum for geting the flawless victory.