Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Corvuus]

hey guys,

I am pst time/weird sleeping pattern so i am here now.

------

If you have questions for me, let me know.

1. I think EMP, DP and Singer are scum. Maybe could switch Adumbra or Rhinox.
2. Noc, HF are most likely town.

EMP-massclaim.... i've seen him or someone suggest it day 1 before. it doesn't actually go through but it isn't necessarily indicative of alignment. it can be done by a townie to draw attention and get reactions. mainly a null-tell that can result in good and bad things for town but generally in most cases it goes badly.

His play post-massclaim is interesting though. Yes, day 1 should never be a no lynch. In terms of policy, FA should have been lynched and in most games, he would have been... even more so if he was the only wagon.

However, he wasn't the only wagon. FA, EMP, DP were all potentially lynchable. In terms of scumminess, FA was nowhere near as scummy as you two.

DP is too certain of EMP being town, scummy actions/responses. EMP is semi-scumhunting (busing?) but you never said anything about DP blatant buddying which, regardless of whether you are both same alignment or not, should be worrying to you.

Noc and HF are most likely town simply because
1. they wanted to vote for scum and didnt see FA scum.
2. they are unsure of my alignment so they didn't try excessively to switch the wagon when it could be catastrophic to them. I am town so thanks for not lynching me.

Singer, AD, and Rhinox have interesting parts and posts.

Rhinox: your view on FA is flawed. To someone who hasn't seen a MC before, it is a somewhat normal response. The EMP-mass claim gambit can not indicate EMP is town unless EMP moves on from it in a useful way. i.e. yes, it draws attention, yes it could get him lynched, but manipulation of reactions, votes for it can tell you whether it is town or scum with alterior motives. If town, the massclaim can get reads on people, get out of RVS, etc. EMP-town could also use the 'i am a easy target so scum will try to lynch me' motive as well and turn it into a hunters hunted method. This isn't what EMP did, nor is FA guilty of it in a scummy way. EMP is guilty of trying to lynch someone on failed reasoning based on his MC (FA) while ignoring DP... so while he could claim that any lynch other than himself is good (even townies like self-preservation) FA being a higher priority than DP is strange, plus other interaction. Your posts are indicative of town, but you are somewhat potentially guilty by association for defending another player especially in this situation.

If we tried to lynch him based on MC suggestion alone, i wouldn't have voted him but it is what he did with his gambit that is strange.
If further clarification is needed, let me know. short version: there IS a 'optimal' town move for suggesting MC day 1. EMP utterly failed in the execution of it or he is scum. Seeing how things played out, (with his vote flopping to singer, etc.) and the failure of EMP's own gambit to give himself a read on other players (note that he hasn't made any comments on who he actually thinks is scum or town, nor reads picked up from his gambit other than 'everyone voting me is scum', plus his haphazard FA, singer vote).

Singer/EMP/DP seem to be competing scum buses for each other. Not sure of Singer's meta yet but mixed amounts of sheeping/buddying, plus interaction? 3rd choice for scum but could be switched out.

AD is neutral/town leaning but pending further posts, reading, and process of elimination could be scum.
Incop is neutral/town leaning.

I have no idea on LordWhyt yet.

edit: DP, is there a point to "village idiot"?

C

[Corvuus]

that... i mean...

...

EMP revise or die.

vote EMPking

Corv

[Corvuus]

if you see nothing wrong, then you really do deserve to die.

Figure out the permutations, and what you are doing/should have been doing.

either way, you just called DP scum.

C

[Corvuus]

short version:

possible permutations:

EMP town, DP town
EMP town, DP scum
EMP scum, DP town
EMP scum, DP scum

agreed?

DP is buddying you. there are only so many possible reasons and permutations from this. i.e. if DP is scum, and he is buddying you (and you are town) then he is trying to setup your mislynch? if you are scum and DP is town, then you simply don't care since DP lynch is not indicative of your alignment and your lynch could result in his mislynch. If you are both scum or both town, then there are other possibilities which we could all guess at.

Either way, your literal response (i won't get into implied) is not so good.

In terms of answering your direct question:
"is there any reason that i as scum would not be worried about DP" (implied as scum but could be town).

This also looks bad and calls into question why you thought FA more lynchable than DP.

Example: Let's say DP is town but SUPER SCUMMY town and that you are scum. You aren't worried about DP buddying since people usually lynch the scummy buddy first as a indicator and when he flips town, then you couldn't careless since everyone would say "DP was buddying, but as town, it doesn't mean much".

However, this isn't what was said or what happened. Your self-quote is "worried about DP because the action everyone keeps going on about (the buddying) and the way he went about it wouldn't be done as town". I.e. DP is scum/scummy because of what he did. Why didn't you mention this previously, now and why choose FA over DP? If you are town, then wouldn't you worry about someone of a unknown alignment buddying you?

C

[Corvuus]

oh ok. Rhinox is scum. that makes things simple.

no-lynch =! mislynch.

so you know i am a mislynch and are sad i didn't get lynched? you and EMPking are interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip

meant to say no lynch but said mislynch?

debatable whether we can lynch Rhinox/EMP based on words but your response is interesting. No lynch occurring is nowhere indicative of my alignment nor of the people around at deadline. If the majority rules were 'normal/clearer', i probably would have been lynched. So for you to argue that a misinterpretation/misunderstanding/lack of lynch implies scum is pretty scummy since it simply isn't true in this circumstance in this game and with these rules.

Plus, there is the more obvious situation where either a. scum were already voting for me in part or whole. b. scum didn't want to place the hammer and thought majority would deadline lynch me. either way, your conclusions aren't good.

Up for a Rhinox, EMP, Singer scumteam. Maybe DP switch with singer? but we'll see when he responds.

Corv

[Corvuus]

FA being L-1 at deadline is not conclusive and the issue is that Pre-deadline, the lynch could have easily been DP, EMP or FA. Arguing that I should have been lynched since FA was at L-1 is basically saying that an AFK-non present (no defense, nothing) person wasn't around to defend himself so you guys were able to vote him up with EMP, etc. pushing non-existent case and others hoping on since, in general, it is better to lynch someone day 1 than not lynching.

However, consider this Incognito:

Assuming I am scum and I do have scumbuddies, don't you think it MUCH more likely that scumbuddies would try to wagon someone else or divert attention away from their 'afk' scumbuddy? Wouldn't they see the wagon forming and instead of 'yawn bus + oh wait, let's no lynch save at the end' they could just wagon EMP/DP?

Failure of deadline lynch (when DP, and most others probably) thought i/FA would have been deadline lynched is not indicative of alignment, nor is your assumption the most likely. Least likely and, since I am town, it isn't true.

I'm still inclined towards incognito town.
---

Rhinox: i only have one vote. I'm not going to unvote every single time one of my top 3 scum suspects says something scummy and flip-flop vote. EMP/Rhinox are likely scum. i'm voting for EMP since he is much more likely. If you'd rather yourself be lynched instead, then feel free to try.


EMP: i play fairly consistently in all my games. if my above answers (i.e. word slip persecution for reactions) is not an acceptable form of scumhunting to you, then let me know. The issue, as with MC-day 1 suggestion, is whether word-slippage is used exclusively, pressingly, informatively in whether it is pro-town to do so.

I'm not lynching based on 'slips of tongue'. It is potential lynching based on reactions and interaction with slips of tongue. I.e. i call you out on it. How you respond is how I determine whether it is an actual town-tell or a scum-tell or null/inconclusive yet. Pretty much the whole point of a pro-town MC day 1 suggestion is to 'reaction-fish', get a baseline and see how people think, etc.

I.e. I noticed other parts in Rhinox's previous posts so I put him as maybe-town but some worry parts. This may have resulted in his response and that just pushes the issue onwards. I think Hercule Poirot does say that conversation undoes all murderers or some paraphrase like that.

------

Incognito: Re-read Rhinox's post and consider EXACTLY what he has said word for word, and what you personally and logically think word for word.

I.e. your reason for lynching me is that you think I am scum and that I was 'saved'.
Rhinox's reasoning is NOT the same.

post #302 from Rhinox:

vote Corvuus

The fact that the FA lynch didn't happen and no lynch was allowed to happen makes me think it is even more likely FA/Corvuus is scum and his buddies didn't vote for him to allow a no-lynch to happen.

{havingfitz, lrdwhyt, cruelty, nocmen, DP} - there are definitely scum here for allowing the mislynch to happen, whatever corvuus' allignment is.

The first part would lead you to think that his reasoning is similar to what Incognito said. His second part (with or without the slip pending what you think of Rhinox) includes the "whatever Corvuus' alignment is".

Incognito voting me doesn't bother me since he actually thinks i am scum and that I was somehow saved (even though not optimal play as mentioned earlier) while Rhinox says my alignment doesn't matter. and that scum are in that group that 'let' me live... even though my alignment doesn't matter.

This is not logical play. Of course my alignment matters. Please consider it more.

----



Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Incognito: If town wanted to lynch FA then surely regardless of FA's alignment scum wanted him to live.

Feel free to explain this more since the 'if then' clause doesn't make sense.

My alignment matters in all cases. To say it doesn't is super-wishy-washy. I'm town, so why would scum want me to live? Why do you guys think my alignment doesn't matter? Trying to have your cake and eat it too.


C

[Corvuus]

i didn't feel the need to explain both as town since in the both as town case, it is really based on meta and what I think townies would do, and what they think townies would do. Subjective point.

For example: I personally believe that townies should not blindly accept buddying by anyone. Townies (uninformed minority) have the least amount of information compared to scum and don't have 'perfect' knowledge of anything unless someone flips or some kind of town-role ability. i.e. yeah, town is town, and some might like being buddied or called certain town... but someone saying you are super duper town when you really aren't that super duper is 1. scumbuddy if you actually are scum. 2. scum trying to manipulate you if you are town. 3. town with either no play. 4. town with a really deep play. 5. you are scum and you simply don't care. I will not explain the town reasons nor implications since I do not wish EMP, etc. to parrot or know what I consider town-tells, etc.

---

EMP never made an issue of DP buddying or DP calling EMP obvious/certified town until I mentioned it. If DP was a beacon of townness, then this probably wouldn't be an issue at all.

sidenote: There are 2 players who have listed EMP as very likely town(I think, Rhinox + Incog), but no where near to the extremeness of DP.

I mean, there could be the case that BOTH are town and that, in terms of meta, both have absolutely no problem with what happened, and what they did. I just don't see that as the most likely case in this situation. In terms of highest probability for me, EMP as scum, DP as town fits this situation specific meta. The problem in completely differentiating the two is difficult based on EMP's post 34 and 36 in isolation where he states EMP's wagon is false, FA's wagon has decent reasoning, DP's wagon has poor reasoning (no scum motivation). I'm not actually sure what he means when he says DP's wagon has no scum motivation?

FA's wagon of decent reasoning (i am talking pre-immediate deadline) is just not there, and EMP, FA, DP were the wagon choices. The question of why he didn't choose DP is interesting in terms of alignment of both players.... hrmm... still seeing a more likely DP-town, EMP-scum.

EMP: clarify why DP's wagon was poor reasoning (no scum motivation) or what the decent reasoning on FA was at the time you said it.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post: the 'or' should be an 'and' in the very last sentence.

C

[Corvuus]

Noc: No. it isn't.

That is one part, his MC-read-followup, his choice of FA over DP and choice/reaction.

However, i realize now that my fault is that I talk too much. You asked me about the case of both being town, so I said why I doubt both are town and why i think if either of them have to be town it is more likely DP.

EMP: direct contradiction in saying that DP's actions were not scummy (post #334) and post #296. His questionable clarification post does not help since, of course, there is a DP as scum reason for doing it which, if EMP is town, he should be aware of and fearful of, i.e. DP-scum gets lynched due to 'easy-lynching', causes EMP to be lynched in response.

Ironically, I find myself in the same position for trying to make sense of DP true alignment and thinking he is actually town and because of how anti-town he is, it makes you want to lynch me.... but not EMP?

At any rate, EMP is scum. DP could be scum but the requirements for such are not that favorable. EMP town and DP scum.... would be quite weird to me.

===

I also still don't see why you believe DP Town, Emp scum is the most likely. Unless you're trying to protect your buddy DP. Which makes sense along with:

I agree that there is likely scum off his wagon. (Hence my post upon start of day,

I am at fault for not hammering at the end of day 1

)

However, there had been no talk of the upcoming deadline and no one had even mentioned when it was (as far as I can remember, please correct me if wrong) and there was no urgency to get a lynch happening on that specific day. That is why I had no idea I needed to switch my vote.

That, and I still don't know why DP says the wagon on FA is so scummy, to me it seems like he would be trying to earn town cred by hammering the scum.

I'm keeping my vote on singer until he gives something of worth today, and if that pleases me slightly, I'll be moving it to Corvuus.

Re-read again. DP answers your question. Whether you like his answer is one thing, but it is an answer and if DP did know about deadline, then DP-town probably would have hammered Corv/FA-town. To say it would build town-cred because I'd flip scum? It wouldn't since I am town.

Noc, i'll have to consider your alignment later and I'll ask

"So the only case you have on me is that I think DP is crazy-anti-town-town aligned?"

Corv

[Corvuus]

It's weird though given his conclusion, that if Emp was town, why would he worry about DP buddying him?

what does this mean?

C

[Corvuus]

EMP: You have a strong town read on DP? Which posts from DP or what parts?

EMP, do you think I am scum. Yes or no?

Corv

[Corvuus]

The problem is that in this specific game, the deadline rules are not a simple plurality or a 'if no majority lynch, then no deadline lynch'. It is based on # of players voting and majority of that. Which was not understood, etc. so it is mostly null since any conclusion on how people voted, etc. is not a strong indicator of anything since I think the majority of players here thought it would be a deadline lynch.

---

Once again, you guys may not have your cake and eat it too.

I am town. If you are going to assume that FA is scum and that he humored Massclaim for scummy reason (as opposed to say, townie not fully understanding nor knowing what to do and changing his position as he thinks about it more), then make a decision on whether EMP is scum or who might FA's scumbuddies (if FA is scum) be.

In this case, do you really think FA's scumbuddies (scum) would bus or, if not bus, allow wagon to grow on their AFK-buddy? Why is it assumed that it makes more sense for "FA's imaginary scumbuddies" to let FA live due to a misunderstood deadline rules as opposed to 1. lynching him (bus) to gain town points or 2. wagoning someone else to save their scumbuddy when there isn't anything on FA.

FA being the 'almost' lynch yesterday should be proof of him not having buddies/being scum. Not of a imaginary conspiracy where 'scum were the only ones who realized what the deadline rules were and decided to last minute let their buddy'.

------

Rhinox: Your view and your quote of FA is misleading. FA's posts in isolation should be read as post #7, 8 and 9 for a complete view of FA (plus 10 to understand his position). In 7 he votes DP. In 8 he says it is too early to decisively know who is scum. In 9 he says at the bottom of the post

This makes me even more sure of my vote.
1) You admit to buddying.
2) You either know that empking is town, meaning you're scum, or you've got such strong confirmation bias that it doesn't matter what he actually is.
3) You admit that you're case is not based on any fact that we can prove.
4) You are perfectly fine using fallacies. Fallacies

don't prove anything

. According to Wikipedia, a fallacy is "incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception." In layman's terms, a mistake. You're saying you're willing to use mistakes and misconceptions to back up your argument that empking is town.

In my eyes, you're either scum (and therefore know empking is town), or are tunnel-visioning his innocence. Either way, it's bad for the town.

That DP is either scum, or town tunnel-visioning. His vote, interest, discussion on DP is that his actions are scummy/anti-town and voted him for pressure/info but it isn't certainty and "decisively knowing DP is scum" nor did FA pretend it to be so. Based on DP's actions, FA's reads, he thought DP was more likely scum than tunnel vision town leading towards post #10. Skipping a post completely while reading FA in isolation?

FoS Rhinox

I'm still up for a EMP lynch today. Rhinox lynch tomorrow.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

decided to last minute let their buddy 'live'.

C

[Corvuus]

Still didn't answer my question. What is your strong town read on DP?

Also, you didn't actually say I am scum or not. Just voting me without saying anything? Give a case.

Corv

[Corvuus]

VLA for the turkey holiday, mainly next 2-3 days

EMP and then Rhinox still need to be lynched. Not much else left to say.

EMP: You still need to remark on your post #43 (isolation)

Incognito: If town wanted to lynch FA then surely regardless of FA's alignment scum wanted him to live.

also how it fits with you thinking i am scum (and when you thought this), and the motivation and action of yesterday's lynch.

Still trying to have your cake and eat it too.

I do like how you really really wanted to vote me but went through a long round-about way before doing so, and even then, probably only when I asked you whether you thought i was scum. Why didn't you vote me earlier given the (failed) case you are citing?

EMP-scum meta matches.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

thanks for replacing in. Getting busy with travel for turkey day so not able to post response to EMP/neko yet.

Neko: For the parts towards FA, are you asking me or just stating? It seemed more like a stream of consciousness so let me know if there is a specific question you would like me to respond to.

I am actually fairly sincere and am more of an extremist than anything else. So while i can see how it may appear to be calculating and insincere, it is more of a sincere calculation than completely disingenuous.

Corv

[Corvuus]

officially away for thanksgiving. driving, etc. see you guys in a few days.

C

[Corvuus]

EMP, Rhinox.

Around but VLAish still for remaining weekend time/2-3 days.

C

[Corvuus]

thanks for replacing in antihero.

----

No one has changed votes (except DP but he didn't unvote, so i'm not sure it counts) so it should be

------
Day 2, Votecount 4

Corvuus (2) - Rhinox, Empking
Empking (2) - havingfitz, Corvuus
singersigner (1) - Nocmen
Rhinox (1) - DavidParker
DavidParker (1) - neko2086

Not Voting (4) - AdumbroDeus, cruelty(antihero), singersigner, Lrdwhyt

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
---

I can understand why we can't let the 'lurking/anti-townish' players coast through, but seriously, EMP and Rhinox are scum.

Noc: What is your position or case on me? I'm pretty sure I asked you questions earlier in my ISO post #9 and post #10 and I think you should respond.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Rhinox probably also needs a prod.
I'm up for a deadline extension with 2 replacing in (anti hero, AD's) + 2-3 prods, etc.

DP: Stop flip-flop voting. It is extremely anti-town especially with deadline coming up.

C

[Corvuus]

You guys aren't making a lot of sense to me.

Noc: read my previous posts and respond when you have time please.

DP: Why would you choose me over EMP when just so many posts ago you would choose EMP over me? Are you literally going to sheep which ever direction things are going in an attempt to stay alive or what exactly are you doing? Of the two 'prevailing wagons'. You do realize that we both only have 2 votes on us, singer has 1 and that if you placed your vote on singer instead of 'flip-flop'/cruelty (which I don't understand since you haven't said anything about it) then singer would also be a 'prevailing wagon'? I'm still inclined towards useless town but wth.

Singer: Post a case on me. EMP's MC is at best a null-tell, and considerably more anti-town than anything else. It by no means makes EMP town looking at all. Saying it makes him town by drawing suspicion is extremely far fetched especially when his buddies could/are saying it and others sheep it or agree. There is NO reason to believe EMP is town or has town's best interest. In addition, how are my top 2 opportunistic as opposed to say EMP's or anyone elses?

Literally, every single thing you (and others) are accusing me of is hypocrisy and I'm flabbergasted as to whether it is on purpose, laziness, not reading or what.

Example:
Your 'case' is that I am opportunistic since EMP got a lot of heat from yesterday.
FA was the 'deadline nolynch' fiasco which I have received heat from etc. Why is it not opportunistic for everyone voting me, especially when yesterday's voting was predominately not because people thought FA was scummy. Your 'defense' for EMP is that he is the 'easy-bait' lynch ... uhh then what am I? Why won't you lynch EMP today as opposed to tomorrow or any other day? I have already responded to and addressed specific points and yet the reason for EMP, Rhinox voting me have not changed and are still the same failed reasons as before.

---------

EMP: If you are town, and want to convince me then make a post on who is your top 2 scum and why. I'm still inclined towards you being scum but with a most likely 3-scum team, process of elimination/4+ anti-town players I will re-read you again.

I will note: I can get behind a singer lynch as I can see a potential EMP/Rhinox/Singer scumteam and I am inclined towards a HF-town, Noc-town, Neko-town. Pending process of elimination, it could change.

DP: If you think Singer is scum, vote him and stop changing your vote.

Corv

[Corvuus]

thanks for replacing in Scott.

DP: I didn't say you wanted to vote EMP. I don't really want to nitpick with you. You were 'sheeping' and following wagons... I'm just not sure if you are worth a lynch right now. I do hope you die before lylo.
-----

With deadline coming up, you should claim singer.

Unvote, vote singer

Process of elimination makes sense to me. I'm still inclined towards Noc-town, EMP-scum.

That is L-1. 5/8 would also be a deadline lynch.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Seriously Rhinox:

Day 1, Votecount 13

Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, Lrdwhyt
fallen angel (3) – Rhinox, singersigner, Empking
singersigner (2) - cruelty, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito
DavidParker (1) – fallen angel

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline in 5.5 hours. No majority means no lynch.

Day 1, Final Votecount

fallen angel (5) – Rhinox, singersigner, Empking, Incognito, AdumbroDeus
Empking (2) - havingfitz, Lrdwhyt
singersigner (2) - cruelty, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker

Not Voting (1) – fallen angel

With 10 voting, it takes 6 to lynch.

There is

no lynch

.

--------

Your imagined scumteam is Corv-Noc-Antihero(Cruelty). So why didn't my supposed scumbuddies vote for EMP to lynch him instead of me when it was easily do-able?? You are claiming that it was a better move for then to be OFF the wagon, bus, no bus, failed deadline lynch, etc. etc.? Seems like we are just taking potshots at each other.... town?

---

singer: anyone who claims not to use process of elimination is a liar. The instant you (or anyone) says anyone is town or leaning town, you've eliminated them from your pool. There are only so many possible permutations of scum and 11 players, so weighing odds/probability is acceptable from day 1. I'd much rather lynch EMP and Rhinox but you are an acceptable permutation.

Not claiming, or making a defense, is not acceptable. If you are town, then convince us you are, say who you think scum is, etc. EMP's 'hi, i want to hammer but i think he is town, got nothing else to say' makes me want to lynch him even more. ....

sigh.... just reading DP... makes me want to be crazy too.

----------

....

Ok. Rhinox, EMP, and DP you guys get a free pass today. I think you should all die but I'm going to go along a DP-madness play and say that there are only 4 scum permutations (of groups of 3) that make sense to me. Lynching one of you would increase the probability and likelihood but lynching one of the other groups will do that as well. And they are just as anti-town as you three so it is acceptable to me in gain of information.

unvote, vote antihero

This is the crazy play where I assume EMP, Rhinox and DP are town and I am town. 7 players left, two different permutations of 3 (well, more, but the ones i consider most likely) would come out of this. Wagon for info is fun!

DP: Still 3 days until deadline! Let's lynch the antihero guy! Poetic justice!

Corv
p.s. I'll just mention that the permutation involved is an anti-hero, Adnumbro/Scott + 1 type.

[Corvuus]

thanks for fixing my quote Fishy. I copy and pasted but it missed the second /quote? Thanks.
---

oh hey look. Lynching anti-hero will give info on Scott scumbuddy.

but seriously. I love how your analysis says that if (i.e. when) i flip town, it gives town points out but it fails in assuming I am scum and why the FA deadline lynch would be allowed to occur AT ALL. Re:post #450. i.e. HF and Noc, who you claim will get town points or scum points pending my flip, why don't you just go ahead and ASSUME that they (and I) are scum and think about why they didn't swing the wagon away (saving their afk scumbuddy) or hammer me (gaining town street cred) when, per you and what happened in reality, they were able to do so and had no reason not to do so?

Why does everyone want to have their cake and eat it too? You can't say it is a bus, no bus, deadline lynch, forget deadline, etc. etc..

----

EMP: Do you still want me as a lynch today, or will you unvote/fight it out if we are still around tomorrow?


C

[Corvuus]

cool beans.
C

[Corvuus]

Rhinox: what is there to explain? I'm pretty sure i've said it like 5 times now. So just go ahead and eat more cake. It is delicious. I highly recommend the kool-aid that DP drinks as well.

I'm not sure what else I could say to you that wouldn't be anti-town of me to do so.

I do like how you say there could only be 2 scum and that you also seem to believe that with 2 scum, one of them would bus their afk partner, or fail in doing so, or change their mind, or whatever it is you actually think since I have no idea why you think i am scum except that I/FA failed to die yesterday which is not an actual case at all. Same issue with EMP. Don't be a hippo Rhino. or Rhino-crit. Whichever.


----
Either way, i'm not voting for you two at this point. Apparently there was this big memo where everyone decided EMP is town despite everything and the only way this makes sense is massive conspiracy (drink more DP kool-aid) or that scum tried to kill EMP and failed and they are afraid of lynching EMP-town because they aren't 100% sure why they failed, when it could be because it is 11 players, 3 scum, and they simply get no nightkill or some other massively fail reason. And I, as town, didn't get this memo and am left holding the bag of judging EMP based on his play and not magically knowing his alignment.

But hey who knows, that is what DP kool-aid is for right?

Either way, I still believe EMP's play is anti-town but i'm favoring the second conspiracy theory as more likely than the massive insane conspiracy of EMP-scum and everyone just believing he is town since all the cool kids are doing it, in which case, I don't need to lynch anti-town EMP today since scum will (at some point) kill him if he is town, and if he is scum, well, I'll just be sure to lynch him before/on lylo.

But whatever. I don't think there is much of a point in me FoS/saying you are anti-town for continually pushing for my lynch (despite exact mirrored comment that I am scummy for pushing for EMP's lynch) and there isn't anything for me to actually rebuttal in a serious way since there isn't a case on me except that I/FA should have died. Nice.

----

So yeah, I can admit that I may be wrong. EMP could be kool-aid guy, DP is Chuck Norris and I'm learning to stop worrying and love the kool-aid!

In other news, Antihero and Scott need to die. Preferably Anti first.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Singer: psst, you need to actually vote since you aren't voting right now.

---

I liked Adnumbro. Mainly because he called EMP for what he was. I'm saddened by Ad/Scott scum.


HF and Noc are town enough for me. EMP, Rhinox, and DP are town as long as I keep drinking the kool-aid and eating cake. Hopefully the kool-aid cake lasts.

Antihero, Scott and Sure why not.

C

[Corvuus]

corvuus: You/FA is scum for
A) FA's reaction to the mass claim
- "I don't see anything wrong with it, if we mass claim blah blah blah, whoa empking you can't just say its a good idea without explaining why, btw here are some ideas I think it could be a good idea"
-to, over the course of the day-
- "oh hey, empking is probably just misguided town, mass claim is really a scummy idea afterall so empking-scum wouldn't have propesed it.
- without any explaination for shifting from being ok with the massclaim to calling it a bad idea, although my guess is FA saw the reaction empking was getting so dropped his support of the idea and blended in with the town.

FA's reaction to the massclaim. (posts are FA ISO)
EMP proposes and suggets Noc go first.
FA post #2 - Why do you want Noc to go first?
Post #3 - You paraphrase this above Rhinox, which is REALLY FREAKING SCUMMY, but hey i'm not lynching you today so whatever. FA's FIRST sentence is
"I'm pretty sure that if he tells you it's purely for reactions, it doesn't get the desired effect. "
I.e. EMP trolling for reactions is the only possible 'town' reason for him suggesting Massclaim at start of day 1, but if you tell people, then they all react the same. FA does what SEVERAL other players do as well, if you read Noc and others response, they are humoring EMP and saying "sure, if everyone votes for massclaim" but secretly everyone was thinking what HF was saying which is that EMP is anti-town and either VI or scum.

EMP shifts from 'trolling to get reactions' to actually trying to defend what he did, why massclaim is 'viable' and mafia-theory arguments and FA takes the trolling bite of arguing why massclaim is bad (FA iso post #4).

FA's posts have been fairly neutral to this point without him EVER voting for massclaim or anything like you are making it out to be. By post #7, FA's read was that EMP is anti-town/scummy but "so scummy" that he isn't likely to be scum (a position Noc held as well, HF only one saying it is BS).

FA post #7, multiple people parrot this position that EMP is obvious town since scum wouldn't be so stupid to do it, and FA is of that mind but, as I would be as well, I'm suspicious of something when "lots of people agree" especially when that person is DP and there is blatant buddying involved.

FA's post #8 strikes me as this:

EMP is scummy, but not inherently scum. Just stupid suggestion. DP is inherently scummy, and based on DP flip, it could reveal information on EMP's alignment. His post #9 reinforces this in the final paragraph as he says that DP's reasoning, thoughts, etc. is something that is either a). scummy or b). town but so horrible town that he doesn't want him around.

His post #10 reinforces this again, and you guys are trying to get him to change his answer when in reality, FA has stated the same thing THE ENTIRE TIME.

"I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea."

You guys keep pushing wifom (theory discussion) and the actual line of thought drags with 'experience', 'good players', etc. etc. blah blah. FA keeps stating his position and his view on EMP and DP near the end is

FA post #16:
"So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue."

He sees EMP as anti-town but doesn't want to lynch him for what could be stupid case/bad play. DP was/is hurting town (in FA's point of view).

FA then goes VLA, unvote, afk.

----

There WAS no case on FA. He was consistent the WHOLE time.

B) This string of posts:
snipped

Your part B is addressed above as well. Yes, you took it out of context, yes you are anti-town just as EMP is anti-town. I just have no reason to lynch you today.

-----

C) FA wasn't hammered, because scum would rather let a no lynch than happen then hammer a scum partner, when scum could easily hammer hypo-town FA without any negative consequences.

There was no case on FA, FA was VLA/AFK/gone and got the extra votes out of the competing wagons to tie.
That is why HF and Noc got bonus points from me for resisting the BS of 'hop on this is the biggest wagon' when, quite frankly, EMP (heck even singersinger) were do-able as well, especially if FA was still around. (you guys should have asked for a deadline extension is what i personally think).

FA was, by no means, the lynch of yesterday and EMP stating that the FA-wagon was the only one with decent case on it is why I want(ed) him dead today especially since DP was buddying, was scummy, and he ignored it. What else do I need to say about EMP and Rhinox anti-townness?

Oh, and the arguments of nolynch-deadline lynch are stretching. If i was scum, wouldn't my buddies hammer me or start another wagon? Especially when FA had no case against him, EMP and DP (and singersinger) were do-able? You are having your cake and eating it to by choosing the least likely position of "scum were busing FA by not wagoning someone else, then scum decided not to bus/hammer despite how it would look even though the point of busing is to gain town points".

You, and EMP's position has NEVER made sense.

If EMP and Rhinox survive, then they should be killed.

As long as I am eating the cake and drinking the DP kool-aid, I can lynch anti-hero and determine if, against all odds, EMP and Rhinox are town, and who the scum team actually are.

Corvuus
p.s. i'm still open to deadline extension due to multiple replacements and everyone is relatively active so a longer day should help town.

[Corvuus]

I think it also behooves me to mention that FA posted his last post on Nov 6th.

The deadline and no lynch occured on Nov 16th.

10 DAYS.

Nov 10th is when he got 2 votes (from just one by Rhinox initially and singersinger joined him) and NOTHING happened in those remaining 6 days that changed Rhinox, Singer, EMP's mind and that FA was the 'best possible case'?

No other leads? Even with DP running around with jesteriffic-lynch me please?

Seriously, EMP, Rhinox, Singer are very likely scum team.

On the off-chance that this is all a huge misunderstanding of confirmations, etc. i'm not going to vote for EMP, Rhinox today. If antihero flips scum then, most likely, you guys are just anti-town. If he flips town, then i'll try to get town to lynch him pending further responses.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post: "then i'll try to get town to lynch you pending further responses". mixed up pronouns.
C

[Corvuus]

It isn't interpreting things differently if you are making things up.

FA never supported massclaiming. His response was neutral with an interest in EMP's alignment. i.e. Direct quote:

"As for the mass claim, I see no harm in it, although I'd be interested as to what good you think could come of it, Empking. Like havingfitz said, nobody is likely to claim anything other than VT, as a power-role claim is practically suicide, and a scum claim is suicide."

You paraphrased this into:
Rhinox post #468 "I don't see anything wrong with it, if we mass claim blah blah blah, whoa empking you can't just say its a good idea without explaining why, btw here are some ideas I think it could be a good idea"

Hey wait, FA never gave or said any ideas or anything about it being a good idea. Not in his original response, nor in any of his future posts. He was consistent and his response didn't change.

It is blatant misrepresentation and your 'imaginary situation' in A). never happened since you are lying. Re-read FA and give me a direct quote without paraphrasing that you believe shows FA *supporting* massclaiming. It doesn't exist.

FA never gave reasons for support, thought MC was a stupid idea (while using the inherent scumminess of MC to imply EMP town) and his play is consistent.

------

B is also imaginary since FA's view is consistent along with his clarification posts where he states why he is voting for DP and why FA thinks DP is either scum or unhelpful town.

But let me humor you for a moment. FA disappeared on Nov 6th. You voted him and posted your 'view' on Nov 7th and basically your entire basis of 'scum/town' was based on players' reactions to EMP's massclaim.

In your #2 post in iso, you say
"So, its a little early for this, but based on reactions to empking, which pretty much encompasses the first 9 pages:"
and then, in direct contradiction in your next #3 post iso
"That being said, I strongly think FA is scum, and I believe adumbro and empking are town. *snip* It'll take a lot more to change the town and scum groups, though."

Wow. You got a pretty strong read on an VLA player there and you switched from 'too early' to "i'm pretty certain about the town and scum groups".

Nice.
--

In Rhinox post #4
"I never said I was against mass claiming. In fact, I'm surprised nobody asked me what I thought of the idea. *snip* I think in a semi open or open game, mass claiming early has some upsides. *snip* But, maybe I'm just not looking at it the right way or missing ways it could help the town. I'm all for trying out new strategies. *snip* But I would still try it in a game at least once in order to see how it turned out and to identify the potential of using such a strategy in more games."

You support massclaiming more than FA EVER did and I don't understand why people think you are town when you are accusing and suspecting FA for something he didn't do but that you yourself did. That and your blatant buddying/defense (EMP wouldn't do that as scum, blah blah).

ugh, the more I consider you two, the more I want to lynch EMP and Rhinox.
----

C is, again, a total and utter fail. You suggest that scum may have wanted to save their afk FA buddy but, due to only have 2 votes, were not able to do so.

umm... they had 10 days from FA going VLA, 6 days from you placing the first vote on him and they could have generated 'content'/wagon on EMP (who is really anti-town) or singer or DP or whoever you imagine is/isn't FA scumbuddy. Unless you are suggesting that all of the wagons were scum, then there is no reason for you to believe that scum "threw their hands up into the air" and said "well, FA is screwed. I mean, there is no case on him and Rhinox and EMP are scummy, DP/singer is scummy but we can't do anything about it except be paralyzed and wait and hope that a no lynch occurs because people may not understand the fine print of the deadline lynch rules."

I'm liking FA more and more and I should tip my hat off to the guy.

Corvuus
P.S. If based on anyone's re-reads/consideration of the above posts/exchange, if you want to lynch EMP/Rhinox today, i'm open to it. I gave EMP and Rhinox a pass based on .... specific town considerations where EMP could (for some crazy reason) been the NK target but I'm having a extremely hard time believing they are anti-town townies.

[Corvuus]

But if you force the scummy players to claim early, like you agreed above. If scum false-claims a power role, then it can be counterclaimed. If we lynch the actual power role, and scum counterclaimed, we lynch them the next day. That's what happened my first game, and it ended pretty well. http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 7f898e2fd3. As for the vanilla townie lynching pool, that's basically unavoidable, regardless of what day there's a mass claim. There's always uncertainty about who you're lynching, without a cop confirmation.

^^^FA in support of massclaim

your turn, show me where FA explained why MC was scummy.

Saying that is in support of massclaim is amusing. Especially when you consider your views "after the fact" and that your views were a much stronger support of massclaiming and EMP than anything FA every said.

If you actually read the specific FA quote, and the link mentioned, it is a neutral position since he is stating what had happened in a different game, and what was a theory/fact in a debate of theory of MC between HF and EMP. Compare that with your own post in support of MC and it is laughable that you think this ONE post is such a strong indicator of scum that FA is unshakably scum.

As for my evidence, it is his position on EMP and his reaction. FA took EMP's MC claim to imply that EMP was town since scum wouldn't want to be the center of attention. His posts and statements show that he believed MC to be scummy, bad play, stupid proposal but that he didn't consider it enough in order to lynch someone (EMP).

FA post #12
"Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either."
What EMP was doing with MC, etc. was anti-town/scummy. Ergo, MC is scummy.

---
What made you think that FA was 'sheeping' or following town when he was consistent the whole time?

-----

Wow. You got a pretty strong read on an VLA player there and you switched from 'too early' to "i'm pretty certain about the town and scum groups".

Nice.

[quote="Rhinox"
wow talk about a misrep. I said it was "a little" early for lists, not "too early for reads".

It is more relevant than what you are claiming FA did. But either way, you clearly state you have a very strong read of scum on FA and that you were very unlikely to change your view on your scum/town reads (EMP and FA) with NO reason and nothing in game to convince you it is so. You supported massclaim view, supported EMP before anything happened. How did EMP give you such an insanely strong town read?? Your leap is gigantic compared to FA's consistent stance.

You support massclaiming more than FA EVER did and I don't understand why people think you are town when you are accusing and suspecting FA for something he didn't do but that you yourself did. That and your blatant buddying/defense (EMP wouldn't do that as scum, blah blah).

[/quote="Rhinox"]
Not true. I didn't support it because I wasn't around when it was suggested. I gave my views on it well after the MC consideration was past. That said, I don't think FA/you are scum for supporting mass claim, I think FA/you are scum for first supporting it and then calling it a scummy plan for no other reason other than that's what the town decided.
[/quote]

Wow, contradiction within the same post!
You say FA is scumming for: supporting massclaim (not true since he didnt) AND calling it a scummy plan for no other reason than that's what the town decided.

You asked me above to give you a quote showing FA call it a scummy plan so why don't you give me a quote showing FA 'sheeping' or calling it a scummy plan because that is what town decided?

Or better yet, why don't you compare what FA said about a time when massclaiming 'worked' in a different game to what you said in your post of "views on massclaiming working in open game" and tell me what is the difference and why it is scummy for FA to say his view and you say your own view which is close (since examples of massclaiming actually working)... except worse in your case since you suggest trying it. Your view also doesn't jive with EMP's post #111.

umm... they had 10 days from FA going VLA, *snip*

[quote="Rhinox]
now cmon, a player like having fitz spent all day arguing for a empking lynch, and with 5.5 hrs left after FA became the leading wagon, what is he supposed to do to swing a empking lynch then, if he's your scumbuddy? same for anyone else - there were players arguing for lynches other than you.nobody was sitting around for a week riding of FA as screwed. If you think thats what I said, you are truly flailing now.

By the way, anyone else plan onm chiming in here? we need to decide on a leading wagon. My prefence is corvuus obviously, but I would support a anti or singer lynch at deadline for the sake of a lynch at this point.[/quote]

You are cherry picking and flailing yourself. Allow me to tell you just how fail you are.
Votecount on Nov 6th

Day 1, Votecount 7

Empking (4) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, cruelty, Lrdwhyt

EMP reached 3 votes much earlier (with FA around) and AD directly asked FA to vote EMP, along with HF still pushing for it. What does FA say? No. He won't vote EMP! Wow, so FA's supposed scumbuddies (well, they can't all be scum since 3+ people were voting EMP and this is also counter to your point of "FA realized what town felt and changed his view" when obviously at least some town felt EMP was anti-town)... anyways, FA's supposed scumbuddies + at least 1 town had a wagon on EMP and FA says no and even 'defends' EMP by saying MC suggestion doesn't make EMP scum. Wow! Amazing!

DP and FA flatout refusing to vote EMP (for various reasons) results in the EMP wagon fizzling and dying. So DP and FA flat out refusing to vote EMP results in DP and FA becoming the biggest wagons! Do you see the fail that you are proposing? That non-EMP scum let EMP live and decided to kill their own player?
Do you get what I mean when i say you want your cake and eat it too?

But hey, i've pointed out that you guys are starting your 'vote' analysis way too late when the deadline was DIRECTLY imminent (5.5 hours) and not when EMP had 3 votes and FA was not the lynch of the day.

I have errands/work to do. I'm around but no more big posts for me (if i can help it).

I will love a lynch on EMP or Rhinox. Anti I can console myself with by drinking kool-aid.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

mod, is it possible for deadline extension? and if so, extra vote for....

vote for deadline extension

We are very likely to reach a lynch today and there is more to discuss/hear from replacements, etc. Mainly because everyone should go on record (for later day reads) and not just vote to avoid no lynch.

C

[Corvuus]

thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy?
Nice that you ignore Rhinox hypocrisy plus everything else.
Plus, you state that the whole DP/FA defending EMP from lynch is wifom and yet the whole deadline no lynch fiasco isn't wifom?

Why don't you state specifically what you think FA's hypocrisy was with DIRECT quotes. And if you are referring to FA's "supposed" support for massclaim, read Rhinox's 'view' on massclaim and compare it to what FA said and tell me what is the difference.
----

Plus, you inherently misunderstand my case. I have zero problem with the massclaim suggestion it and of itself and I have said that at the beginning and consistently stated it. The problem is with what EMP/Rhinox did aside from the massclaim suggestion which if you can't see from me posting their exact quotes, I have no idea what to say to you.


Oh, and you don't elaborate on what you exactly mean. Words are just words. I am deflecting things that are scummy? No, I'm stating that they aren't scummy and the burden of proof of scumminess is on you guys and you aren't showing it. You are just stating "it is scummy" while ignoring everything else. I do find it amusing that Rhinox just simply restated his EXACT SAME position from earlier and yet you take it as an amazing new revelation when he has stated it before... multiple times.
---

At any rate, EMP, Noc, Rhinox and Scott are voting me so I have to convince HF, DP, Antihero, Neko, Lord and Singer to vote someone not me. Noc's latest move makes me think a EMP + Rhinox + Noc team is likely so can I get HF, DP, Antihero, Neko, Lord and Singer behind a vote on one of these EMP, Rhinox or Noc.

Hmmm, I can't see a wagon on EMP happening with Antihero, singer and DP... and other than anti, no one has really anything on Noc... so how about a Rhinox lynch.

unvote, vote Rhinox

If you can't see Rhinox blatant buddying, inherent confirmation of EMP beyond what is said and done in-game, defense of EMP, supporting massclaim, misrep, failed logic, then I don't know what else to say. I'm not responding to the ones voting me anymore since you're most likely scum and aren't listening/caring anyways and if you read my posts, I've already addressed everything.

For those who want to lynch EMP, lynching Rhinox is a great first step towards doing so since Rhinox has been, and still is, EMP's greatest defender.

DP: vote Rhinox, I'll give you kool-aid. It'll be great.
Anti: You list Rhinox as scum, so hop on. I'm not willing for a singer lynch right now so might as well get one of the 3 dead right?
Lord: Show up, vote Rhinox for great justice.
HF: lynching Rhinox will give info on EMP's alignment and, given both are scum, it will get you that EMP lynch you want.
Singer: you are the 'other easy wagon' and I'm not willing to go with what is easy just because it is convenient. I hope you don't as well. Vote Rhinox.
Neko: You probably have the most fair-minded view of FA. I'm town, and Rhinox does not come off better from our exchange. Vote Rhinox.

If any of DP, anti, singer, Lord, HF, Neko have questions or comments for me, feel free to ask.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

can we please lynch the failed scum Rhinox?

or, could I at least get a promise that when I do flip town, you will all lynch EMP and Rhinox with great justice?

since their lies and fail will be exposed to all?
----

I will also note to town that it is hilarious that Rhinox calls me flailing scum yet also says "if Corvuus is town". Preparing for my town-mislynch? Rhinox also notes buddying which he is a sucker for, yet he doesn't mind buddying to EMP?

Flailing scum that will either by lynched today or lynched tomorrow when I flip town.

C

[Corvuus]

With 5 voting for me, I'd need all remaining six to vote Rhinox which just isn't likely or possible.

I will say that when I flip town, you should all vote EMP and Rhinox since they are scum.
--
I'll self-hammer now if you want me too. No-lynch wouldn't help town mainly because we'll be back exactly where we started the next day which will be on lynching me. ;P

unvote

. With 10 voting, 5 should be a deadline lynch. If you don't trust me to lol put my vote back on at the last minute, then lynch me before deadline.

Anti: I have explained it already but here is the short version. EMP and Rhinox are scum. The only possibility for them not being scum is that they are both town, scum tried to nightkill one of them (most likely EMP) and that there are reasons for specific town-confirmation going on. To allow for that possibility, I assumed EMP and Rhinox are town, in which case the other scumbuddy group possibility involved you. If I lynched you and you flip town, then EMP and Rhinox have a much higher chance of being scum so either I lynch scum or lynch town that would confirm who scum is.

Singer: I have no idea what to say to you since you are obviously thinking of a different player. Neko asked you to claim when he said that #5 should never be considered. Not me. So I will note that your comment and point is opportunistic since I can't see how you would mix Neko and me up and I also think it is ironic that you say i have a lot of nerve in saying such a thing (when I didn't) when I think all of you have a lot of nerve in blatantly lying and misrepresentating everything that is in this game and not caring about it.

I'd post my remaining thoughts on other players but I doubt any of you will read or care.

So when I die and flip town, re-read and lynch EMP and Rhinox. It is just that simple.

Singer and Noc can fight for the third place scumbuddy lynch.

Corvuus
P.S. I'll hammer myself at the latest of 3-4 pm (deadline is at 6 pm).

[Corvuus]

err, i'm pst and this is est time. I'll hammer myself at 3-4 pm pst time.

And not that anyone cares, but I'll claim jester!

C

[Corvuus]

going to be VLA from December 11th to December 25th. I'll be around, able to login and post, but it will be short and hopefully concise.

C

[Corvuus]

I guess I should have hammered myself when I had the chance.

--

Noc: i think the main problem isn't so much DP/day was going to be no lynch but Singer was/did vote for me, so you could have still lynched me. You still haven't answered the majority of what people have asked you about.

EMP: Why would Noc's flip be reflective of me?

I'm still open for a EMP/Rhinox lynch... and while part of me still thinks DP is crazy town.... he probably should be lynched just to be safe.

DP: Why did you switch your vote and what are you actually thinking?

vote DP

mod: I'll be VLA-ish Dec 11th to Dec25th ish area. Still able to post, login though.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Was re-reading. Ad most likely would have used his ability on EMP given day 1, which should be block/protect. While it could be that EMP was scum and submitting the nightkill... it isn't that likely. so I'll accept an EMP-town for now. but if he lives too long he should die.

Mr. Wright: You are amusing in that you answer your own question.

I didn't think singer was scum at that point (and given my view on voting to lynch Rhinox as opposed to singer, it should be clear that i was not willing to lynch another person who was likely town over someone who is likely scum) so lynching him is not optimal since I, as you state, am still a very suspicious person to most people here. Me voting to lynch singer (who i was uncertain of, but felt more town than not) versus a lynch of myself is not optimal for town since, if I lived, which i am right now, then my mislynch will simply happen later and on the off-chance of singer being town, it just isn't worth it since singer mislynch will be followed by a corv mislynch... which is what you are trying to do right now. I should have hammered myself since singer-alive is better than Corv-alive for town DESPITE both singer and I both being town.

So you can accuse me of being disingenuous and bemoan the fact that i am still alive, but I think the main issue is DP and, despite everyone saying it, my lynch will not give the info you think it will since info is already there just by me being alive. Especially if you think Noc and DP are scum independent of me.

and per your argument, You think that I should vote Noc to prevent my own wagon/mislynch today as well right? Despite DP's action being much worse than Noc's?

---

I'd still like Rhinox to be dead.
Corvuus

[Corvuus]

i dont get why you guys are all calling what i do disingenuous, opportunistic etc. I'm being honest and i don't see how voting DP is opportunistic when Noc L-1, etc. is much more opportunistic and Noc is less guilty for yesterday than DP is. So.... how about all of you voting Noc are opportunistic?

DP as scum isn't the most likely prospect to me but DP-town is extremely bad that despite there being an 80% chance of Rhinox scum and only 30% DP scum, DP should die since he is either a). scum or b). town that is going to vote in lylo for no reason and lose the game just for giggles. So yes, just to be safe, he should die. That and despite what I say and do, you guys aren't going to lynch EMP and Rhinox before you lynch me (and then see a Corv-town flip). My only concern now is for optimizing end-game for town and that involves lynching scum (if DP-scum) or removing horrible town (DP-town). If DP is town, and you mislynch both of us (Corv-town) then it is very likely lylo with a most likely 3 scum team remaining.

I already explained why I should have hammered myself. You can take it or leave it.

----

Jailkeeper is a roleblock + protect. Ad choosing EMP is based on Ad wanting to roleblock EMP, not exactly wanting to protect him. However, I would have expected Ad to want to lynch EMP yet Ad/Scott seemed to think EMP was town. Maybe Ad thought roleblock, Scott thought it protected? Either way, re-reading Ad/Scott doesn't say who he might have targeted but since i am still of the opinion that EMP looks way too scummy for EVERYONE to magically say he is town, then I'll go with my conspiracy theory that scum targeted EMP and know it was blocked/protected. Otherwise this 'confirmation-town-bias' crap makes no sense at all.

------

I highly dislike EVERYONE who has posted saying that they are looking at 'possible buddy'/'scum-interaction' without my flip or reasoning on the person being examined/suspected buddying. Seriously, if you have a problem with DP, then it most likely has NOTHING to do with my alignment. So FoS: everyone who is talking about info via flip/interaction after flip instead of you know, actually scum-hunting. I'm an easy target cause i'm an easy target, and if you are hoping to get info or linkage, it is going to fail miserably since i am town.

Yesterday, you wanted Corv lynch to get info on Noc, DP. Today, you want Corv lynch to get info on Noc, DP. Do you consider the lynch on Noc, DP to get info on Corvuus? No, you don't and it is incredibly scummy for you guys to say and do this and say that it is scummy for me to vote DP when him switching his vote is the entire basis for me still being alive and, since i am town, the only reason DP could have for keeping me alive an extra day (if he is thinking strategy on this) is that scum want to keep me around as an easy mislynch for later. Extra-FoS on those who want to use my alignment (town-flip) as info on Noc and DP since this doesn't make sense since me being town will not alleviate DP of his guilt in flip-flopping, etc.

Ugh, there is so much that I dislike but frankly, you can't all be scum right? Either way, stop trying to play mindgames over my eventual lynch (since i am town, most of it won't matter) and focus on what people are actually doing that is scummy.

EMP is coasting and needs to die. Same with Rhinox. Since none of you want to do anything about obvious scum (and yes, i tried for Rhinox before deadline but you all universely said 'screw you' so i don't see why it would be different now when nothing has really changed and Rhinox hasnt said anything new) and DP's answer, reasoning and what he actually literally did... sucks.

I actually don't understand why you guys are wagon/vote happy on Noc instead of DP when DP caused the problem and Noc is either left holding the bag, or made a very unusual move. I'm inclined towards a Noc-town still at this point and .... not that anyone really cares what I think, I'm still for a EMP-scum, Rhinox-scum, HF-town, Noc-town, DP-jesteriffic. I dislike Neko's recent points, but still inclined towards town. Mr. Wright and Grump... eh. No opinion but depends on what DP really is.


Corv
P.S. may not be able to post for a full real life day or so.

[Corvuus]

Today, you post 'I should have hammered myself when I had the chance'. Why is that? Your goal was to prevent a no lynch. There was a lynch after all, so what's wrong?
All this 'selfhammer' stuff seems like one big appeal to emotion to me.

I also don't like his most recent vote on DavidParker. He hasn't mentioned DavidParker-scum at all before today. Yet now he suddenly hops on the wagon with the question 'why did you change your vote?'. This makes no sense. Corvuus, DavidParker is under suspicion now because he switched his vote from you to Singersigner. If you're town, you shouldn't have any problems with DavidParker switching his vote from a townie to another townie.

Actually, I would like to hear what Mr. Wright has to say to my answers.

You say "if i am town, you shouldn't have any problems with DP switching his vote from a townie to another townie". Do you seriously have no problem with DP switching his vote? Especially since DP-scum would *know* and therefore also know singer-mislynch could be followed by Corv-mislynch? I viewed DP as a VI-crazy-townie type but him switching his vote and misrepresenting (if you read his iso and what he has said recently) then it is more than enough to warrant a vote despite me believing he was more of a VI-town than scum previously.

I'd also like to hear what you have to say about my self-hammer point. It isn't appeal to emotion when it is statement of fact. I am the 'easy-lynch' for the rest of the game, as town, getting myself night killed would be the best option, lynched 2nd best if it prevents everyone else from scumhunting, viewing the game, etc. Which is what seems to be happening. So my lynch as Corv-town was better than singer. DP denied that and it is INCREDIBLY scummy for him to have done so.

I'll also state that 'hop on the wagon', is seriously just me as the 2nd vote on DP when Noc was already at L-1. The 'easy' thing for me to do would have been 'yeah, get that noc guy, horrible horrible' (which is probably what DP would do) but it is 1000 times DP's fault than Noc's fault. And while it is not implausible that Noc is scum who took advantage of the situation, it just simply isn't the most likely possibility.

Either way, Mr. Wright gets a neutral leading scum read.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Corv's latest post was terrible.

Vote: Corv

Mostly the part about having a go at the town for speculating on buddying/interactions following a corv flip, then he attacks the town saying they shoudl think about what a dp or nocmen lynch would do for his speculation. You are trying to divert the lynch onto myself/nocmen here in a very scummy way. I don't like it.

As for your "thiinking out for the town", i have no intention of rushing through lylo and quick-voting or voting foolishly in the event that I reach lylo.

DP: I'm not sure if you are reading or enjoying my use of words but let me put it for you this way.

Mr. Wright (and others) are saying that lynching me (and me flipping town) would show that you are not likely scum since there wouldn't be scum motivation for you (and noc) to vote like that.

This is false. Regardless of my alignment, you changing your vote is scummy AND there is potential scum motivation for it. The fact that I will flip town does not in any way make what you did 'better' nor will my flip give town points to anyone in any of the no lynch/strangeness fiascos.

The point about people thinking like this is because if a). you are trying to use my lynch to gain info on other players, in particular Noc and DP, then b). would their (noc and DP) lynch give info on my alignment? It is a question for people to think about and arrive at their own answer, but I'd say no in both cases. I actually like that Rhinox thinks of us independently but whatever.

As for you, DP, not rushing through lylo, etc., I don't believe you and find it interesting that when questioned before, you seem flippant, nonchalant, belligerant about your views and changing views, yet now you are interested in what is happening? Still without giving a reasonable explanation for why you thought a singer lynch was better than a Corv lynch, or why you dislike me now except for the fact that I am ok with lynching you?

Corv

[Corvuus]

Noc also hasn't responded. I'm interested in whether he prefers a DP lynch versus a Corv lynch and, in particular, what is Noc's reasons for voting me. To save yourself, because you want my flip, think i am scum, etc.

C

[Corvuus]

VLAish so I can't respond fully to Haylen at this time.

Haylen:
- FA didnt support massclaim. please re-read again and post specific quote where you believe this was done. Don't handwave.
- Stop trying to have 'cake and eat it too'. i.e. you claim ridiculous for scumbuddies to bus early or 'salvagable' spot, yet you say i distance with EMP and that EMP is my scumbuddy? This doesn't make sense on a multitude of levels especially with the 3 way wagon lynch on day 1 before FA became the 'deadline no lynch' of the day.
- My reason for EMP is there. I don't state all at beginning to measure reaction, more read. When I tried to build support for wagon on EMP, i mention more of why I am voting EMP.
- My 'switch' is based on 1. I could be so deep into EMP-scum read that I could be 'narrowminded' and I also can't understand why virtually everyone thinks EMP is town despite EMP's actions to the contrary. That is when I mentioned EMP-town/power role, SB maybe.
- I gave my reasons for what I did and why I did it. I think self-voting as town is not optimal but, strangely enough, this is one of the scenarios where it would be optimal.
- Haylen: Do you think EMP is scum or town? Given that you cite the very specific scenario of "EMP flipping scum" and Corv/FA busing him... well... out of curiosity, can I assume that you think EMP is scum? Or why in the world are you mentioning this one specific outcome?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

My reasons for my vote-changing and often not giving reasons to them is associated with the way I tend to play and scum hunt.. While it might not fit with this site's idea of what is "pro-town", i've found it quite useful in determining who is scum and getting reactions :/

Not cooperating is all part of the plan

Can you give a specific example or explain how vote-changing from singer to Corv yesterday is associated with the way you play/scumhunt.

C
p.s. traveling but i should be able to post again in within 2 days.

[Corvuus]

DP: Why did you change your vote from Corv to Singer and why are you voting me now?

C

[Corvuus]

sorry, just posting to avoid prod.
flying from Taiwan back to U.S. in a day and still busy/VLAish.

I'll try to read and catch up when i can squeeze in some time.

C

[Corvuus]

Haylen: You said you were reading, considering, yet you never answered my questions or said anything further about me except that I am your strongest scum read. What about EMP? (since you say he could/is my buddy). What about my points? I responded both to you and to Mr. Wright and I'm suspicious of your motives. I can understand not wanting to give any more reads but there is no excuse for not saying ANYTHING about Noc and DP. Especially DP since he is, currently, the competing wagon.
---
Rhinox: I'm not quite sure I understand every part of your recent posts. But I guess i'll just leave it at that. As long as you don't defend EMP. I do dislike Haylen's posts and I am debating a Noc lynch based on his recent posts (point later), think DP is just going to lurk/avoid and try to sneak by until deadline. I'm in for more of a DP-EMP-Noc-Haylen order.
-------
Noc: Your iso posts #47. You state that "I'm extremely convinced that at least 1 of Corv and DP are scum". You then state that "If Corv is lynched and comes up town, i'm less convinced of DP-scum". You have similar statements from various other posts which are DP could be scum, but it is a possibility, not a certainty type. (iso post #48, others). You state that DP's lynch would give no info on mine but my lynch (especially since i am town) would give info on DP (you presume clearing him) since DP-scum wouldn't be likely to vote like that. This goes back to my original point (which i think people missed) in that my flip of town does not clear DP-scum in any way since DP-scum voting for singer allows for Corv-town mislynch the next day. There is a scum motive for what DP did.

I'm open to a Noc lynch more than i was at the start of the day but I think Noc-DP interaction should be considered especially if you guys lynch me today.
----
DP: Your iso #56 is very strange.

Because I had a gut scum-read stronger on singer. I decided to go with it. I'm voting you now because the case on you is a strong one and I believe you have behaved scummily and your wagon on day 1 not being hammered indicates quite possible scum. My gut is leaning town on you but looking at your iso I see my head telling me scum...

When did the 'gut scum-read stronger on singer' occur, why? State in your own words, how have I behaved scummily, and why does not being hammered day 1 indicate possible scum (now as opposed to before?). Especially compare your start of the day when you stated "bandwagon case I like" and voted Noc (iso #49) yet you later state that I am trying to divert my wagon onto you/Noc (and you state i did it scummily when I just called out what you did, and I assigned you the blame?)? What do you think of Noc right now?

That is all the time i have for right now. Be back after Christmas. VLA to 26th.
Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

Mr. Wright makes a similar point to Noc in his last post before he replaces. So i'm more open to a Noc-DP-Haylen possibility, but prefer a DP lynch first. The other 2 are slightly more interchangable (i still really dislike EMP) but that is where I am at.

C

[Corvuus]

i'm extremely VLAish with some RL things going on right now.

VLA

until thursday morning. I will try to check in but it is going to be short, hopefully concise.

DP, Haylen, Rhinox: comments/thoughts on Fenhl plz.

I'll try to respond if directly asked something.

C

[Corvuus]

Fenhl needs to post.

In terms of my reads/feelings on this game, I am strongly of the opinion that with 1 correct scum lynch, the rest of the scum will fall since there are different plays/interactions going on that could imply alignment.

---

The way things are going now, I'd say there are 3 scum (so I do believe it is Mylo) and that EMP and Neko are likely candidates.

vote EMPking

.

I'm also open to massclaim since I do believe it is potentially mylo and I suggest EMP/Fenhl go first. If you guys feel someone else should popcorn first, then go ahead. Will try to be around but most likely won't be able to check in/post until thursday.

Corv

[Corvuus]

computer crashed and other weird stuff but amusingly enough got a RL extension for a day.

Neko-

I'm intrigued as well. I can, without re-reading but using my notes, point out LordWhyt's iso post #20 where he comments on how (like I have been saying for most of the game) the first day's votes was initially a tie and that EMP and Incognito (neko predecessor) tipped the scale with Adnumber (Scott Brosius) following. I actually liked LordWhyt but don't remember liking anything about Grump.

I've generally given you a pass since there were others more pressingly scummy to me but, as you say, nobody should get a free pass at this point and while I liked some parts of your earlier play [actually, I liked it alot ], I'm less inclined to see you as most likely town right now especially since I'm getting a cognitive dissonance feeling. I'm not willing to lynch you before EMP's flip but I do think it is something worth mentioning depending on where things fall.

This might seem strange for me to say, but can you tell me what you think/remember about Lordwhyt and Grump and what you thought of them? If you do remember, why aren't you saying it, why are you saying that there is another quickwagon that could be formed and useful (without voting or saying anything) and where do you actually stand on things since yesterday, you were ready for a DP/Corv lynch but now you are choosing Fenhl. Do you believe a quick wagon on Corv/DP would be more beneficial or who else could you possibly suspect?

And while I like different parts, I can't help that you strike me as someone smart playing dumb. That, and at this point, I have a feeling it is going to come down to stubborness and 'bullying', especially with regards to forcing people to vote a certain way, especially in regards to connections, and especially since there is a possibility that this is mylo, and especially since you are flip-flopping between trying to say Corv/DP scum, yet trying to convince us on voting Fenhl.

Other than the most recent no lynch fiasco, provide a case on Fenhl/LordWhyt/Grump that isn't inherently trying to rely on town just quickvoting and lynching someone and convince me it is not a weak-scum quickwin attempt.

I'm also still in favor of massclaiming. I'm not 100% satisfied with Rhinox/Noc but I'm currently more favorable towards Rhinox than Noc. I'm reflecting on my reasoning for DP yesterday (which you misrepresented) but.... perhaps ironically, I'm willing to side with DP on this one.
------
Yes, the Corv/FA wagons fell apart (two mislynch attempts) but directly preceding each of those was a fairly realistic attempt on EMP. So yes, you could ask 'why is Corv still alive' or you could consider the whole scapegoat factor and ask why is EMP still alive? Why are the votes playing out this way? Rhinox, didn't you like doing graphical interfaces of voting patterns, etc.? Do you still think EMP is town?

I feel it is also worth mentioning that HF (who was the most adamant on EMP and moderately+ friendly towards me) is town and that, in terms of voting for day 1, etc. less arguable that FA survived because of a conspiracy.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Recent posts include yesterday's posts by DP, not just the 2-3 he has today. Feel free to read them.

---

I feel it is a bit too convenient that a few players have mentioned how this could be mylo, consider massclaim, and if it is mylo, then a 'quickwagon' for information can quickly turn into a quicklynch and loss for town, and yet you are comfortable with keeping your vote on fenhl without anything else... and both you (noc) and Neko aren't trying to argue that I (or DP) are scum, but apparently both of you are trying to convince us to re-consider/vote fenhl....

which is huge amounts of fail since 1. you believed earlier that DP and/or Corv were scum and you presumably think fenhl is scum since you are voting/still voting at potential mylo then why are you trying to convince DP/Corv (who you have stated are scum) to reconsider/vote fenhl when the basis of your argument(s) doesn't make sense in consideration of the game overall. Heck, even DP pointed it out, so what exactly are you guys doing except playing as lazy scum in mylo?

I'm not fully convinced that all 3 of you voting are scum, but I feel EMP is scum and, if you (noc, neko) are town, then I suggest you re-consider YOUR positions (especially in regards to EMP and voting with EMP) instead of asking me to re-consider Fenhl since he may be scum but he isn't certain scum to me and isn't going to get my vote in potential mylo. Probability wise EMP is most likely scum and, as i stated before, 1 scum flip seems to be all we need to break the scum team.
-----

If it isn't obvious, I dislike both of your plays/actions since the day started and I will continue to comment/point it out since you are VOTING in potential mylo and claiming it is for info and not to necessarily lynch scum. There is NO reason for you to believe that you need to vote/wagon in order to get information and to do it now in mylo is just beyond careless/haphazard. Ignoring Fenhl's VLA for a moment, do you honestly believe that by voting him you would get more than just asking him with a FoS? Especially in mylo? You've simply succeeded in making me go "what the heck? voting in potential mylo" and you've done nothing to convince me that this isn't an incredibly lazy scum mylo play that you are hoping to sneak by. Yes, Fenhl has to comment (when he gets internet?), but you guys aren't helping town at all with what you are doing.

Corvuus
p.s. edit note for Haylen. You do realize that Neko/DP both said that they think i am likely town, so I don't know what you could possibly be referring to, especially since you ask whether it is mylo but you also apparently want to lynch for information and not necessarily to hit scum. Stop the lazy play.

[Corvuus]

Haylen: It isn't hypocrisy for me to vote EMP in mylo since I think he is scum and I do want him lynched. I also, ironically, don't believe another no lynch would help us even in potential mylo so I won't be voting no lynch.

Seriously, though, if I'm lynched. DON'T lynch Neko.

I find your statement strange in saying that if you are lynched, don't lynch neko. It makes zero sense unless you are trying to mindgame and, generally, it is scum who try to mindgame. Heck, Rhinox said something similar in that he wouldn't agree with a neko lynch but his phrasing/statement actually makes sense while yours reaks of scum trying to frame town since why would Haylen-town say that about Neko and in that way?

I'm up for a EMP + Haylen + 1 (noc?) team in that case but I'd still prefer an EMP lynch at the moment.
-----------

I am still in favor of a massclaim.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I am VT.

i'm totally in favor of EMP claiming next. Noc and Haylen should follow shortly thereafter.

Still heavily in favor of an EMP lynch. Haylen-slot is a possible scum candidate but since I still personally believe this is mylo, I'd rather lynch EMP first, Haylen pending.

Corv
P.S. Haylen has responded yet with why she wrote what she did about Neko.
p.p.s. no lynch with 3 rounds of no lynches already just doesn't feel right to me. I think we should do the massclaim, force the issue and see how this plays out, especially since I think town will choose right.

[Corvuus]

Haylen: I'm tempted to vote you. What have you said or done this game other than coast and if not judging the previous haylen-slot, what are we supposed to have from/on you? I am however not willing to move my vote to you at this point since I don't trust noc and EMP nor do I completely accept that this isn't mylo. I am leaning towards you being a potential scum partner.

---

DP, Llama, voting no lynch at this point is not helpful, especially with regards to the fact that it will most likely be a 'no lynch' anyways if you both withhold your vote for a lynch. 8 players: DP and Llama and potential lynch suspect won't vote means the remaining 5 players have to vote for 1 suspect. Given that there is at least 2 scum (i think 3), and that I think DP is town, this means we are almost guaranteed to not lynch scum but only town if you with-hold like this since most likely all of town will have to vote together to lynch scum.

So please reconsider voting no lynch at this point. If we do have an investigative role, I think it is worthwhile to do the massclaim, force the issue and play this out. Town taking tempo at this point is full of win, while delaying/sticking head in sand feels very wrong to me.

If you think no lynch will produce better information, I think it won't, especially since we have already talked too much. I agree with Rhinox on that point (which ironically EMP quotes as well).

----------------------------------------------------------------

If EMP votes no lynch (or Noc votes no lynch) I think they should be definitely lynched the following day. No excuses.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post: Llama, just to make sure you are aware, the deadline rules in this game are different. There is only a deadline lynch if 1 player has the majority of votes from all votes being cast. At any rate, there are other rules which i think you should be aware of as well. I strongly think you should not be voting no lynch at this point.

C

[Corvuus]

Llama:
1. AD was around for day 1 and night 1. He replaced out day 2 so presumably AD submitted the action for night 1.
2. AD was after EMP's lynch the ENTIRE day 1 and voted FA at the end of the day since he didn't want a no lynch.
Your thought process and choice of order is highly confusing... especially since you quote SB when you are trying to discuss night 1 when SB didn't even exist. I will also call in to question whether SB even understood what JK role is in terms of blocking/protecting and whether he thought AD targeted EMP in order to protect him as opposed to blocking him. I've considered AD and SB for a while (i made a small post way back) and I can not figure out who they might have or would have targetted since AD and SB are fairly opposite in their choices. AD was extremely pro-EMP lynch while SB was a total flip, felt EMP was town (I disagree with SB's reasonings) and his word choice, thoughts and reflection after his flip didn't help me figure out what the heck he or AD were doing.

I will also note that AD/SB's night actions for night 2 are relatively meaningless. He was the night kill and thus whoever he may have chosen to protect doesn't matter, and whoever he may have chosen to block, wasn't the one who submitted the night kill. The only 'blatantly simple' line drawing we could say in terms of blocking is that AD may have blocked EMP night 1 (and EMP submitted kill?) or AD protected someone (Rhinox is an example) resulting in no kill for night 1. One could argue that AD would block me since I didn't die from no lynch but I think him blocking his "EMP-obvious-scum" more likely.

For night 2, SB may have blocked me (who he voted for) or protected whoever he thought was town (EMP is an example) and he was killed night 2.

Is this what you are trying to say?

---

At any rate, I truly believe that AD targeted EMP to block him. EMP is scum, got blocked. SB didn't understand this (JK role) or believed (like you do Llama) that it is better to protect than to block. So SB takes AD as protecting EMP despite the strangeness of AD trying to protect EMP, that, plus the 'no night kill' makes SB think EMP is certified town since there should be no reason for scum to submit a 'no kill' day 1. He then highlights this as everyone voting for EMP is scum, and says there is no case (despite there being a case on EMP, etc. etc.). SB basically only makes 1 post (iso #2) with the rest calling into question other people he thinks are 'scummy' with them being the people who voted EMP. i.e. HF, myself and who 'let the no lynch' happen and he focuses mainly on HF, Noc, DP. I didn't understand how SB could be like this (unless he was a EMP scumbuddy) but him being a town power role with a false confirmation bias on EMP makes more sense for what SB tried to do.
----

Why are we not lynching EMP?

----

I will also note that I find it strange that everyone claimed VT and in particular, I would like explanation from Rhinox. You were adamant that EMP is town in earlier days to the point where you said that you absolutely wouldn't agree to an EMP lynch. Why?

----

I half-expected scum to try to power role claim but apparently they got called out early (*cough* EMP *cough*) or were afraid they'd screw it up/get called on the bs of it all.

-----

My time for the next few days is going to be slightly sporadic so I'm going to keep my vote on EMP. I'm not sure on a haylen-lynch but Haylen is a 2nd choice for me given EMP's response and voting patterns.... however, the likelihood of them both being scum and not voting each other to get yet another no lynch in deadline is a possibility. So I will check in and if needed, vote for Haylen. I strongly think a EMP lynch should happen first though.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Llama: I'll guess we will just find out what happened at the end of the game.

As a sidenote, a 11p game with only a JK is balanced to me but not that usual.

----

I am pressed for time and an EMP lynch (again) doesn't look that likely. I honestly can not understand why people think his meta or actions or anything strike them as town. If i'm wrong, then well, I'm wrong but this whole EMP is town due to 1 singular massclaim action is ... mindboggling to me.

I'm keeping my vote on EMP for now but either later tonight or tomorrow morning i will be switching my vote to Haylen. Haylen is VLA on weekends, deadline is on weekend, so whatever you may want to say or do, feel free to do it now Haylen. If Haylen flips scum, then I strongly recommend people re-consider EMP as a potential scumbuddy especially because of the interaction and voting pattern there.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Your argument isn't a very good one and it doesn't convince me at all that EMP is town or that it is a meta to show him as town. Actually, I want to keep my vote on EMP more now than ever.

I'm just going to type this and so if it doesn't make sense... well... i guess fill in the blanks or use your imagination.
---

Conjecture: EMP wants to show massclaim is viable in mini-normal games.
Ignoring arguments for a 'control' group where EMP is not in the game itself and someone else were to do massclaim (i.e. a real experiment) we can say that EMP believes it a viable strategy and infer from the mafia discussion post.

Assertion: EMP would want to make the best massclaim in order to show it's viability and usefulness and we should be able to assume this from the fact that he made a mafia discussion topic on it. So regardless, he at least feels it is viable.

My main point is: Feels it is 'viable'. Keep this in mind.

-------------------------
Sidenotes: This is regarding massclaiming in this game alone and just personal opinion. Feel free to skip this.
Assumed 'Facts':
1. Assuming everyone is telling the "truth" and that there are no remaining town aligned power roles, massclaim would have been VTs and AD/SB claiming JK (if at all) since, according to EMP's own hypothesis, scum would be pressured and unlikely to try to fake claim early day 1... and if they did do so, it could/should 'blow up in their face' late game. So assuming all townies tell the truth, and all scum claim VT, the massclaim day 1 and today would have played out similarly. This is debatable but is most probable.

2. Given the above claiming, is there any benefit that town could have gained from massclaiming day 1? I.e. AD/SB claim JK, everyone else claimed VT. This is kind of debatable but for the most part massclaiming day 1 would most likely not have strongly helped or hurt town in this case since JK is a balanced role and no millers or anything else was presented. Knowing to leave AD/SB alone for 1 night (and then watching them die) wouldn't have strongly helped or hurt town since JK is fairly balanced and not 'overpowered' as the days go on.

I don't want to get into massclaiming (mafia discussion type) so I will just leave it at that. I don't believe massclaiming would have helped or hurt this town but that is just my personal opinion for this specific town and setup. In a few of the examples EMP gave, i could see how town could have a slight advantage but, again, that is betting on setup types.

------------------------

At any rate, presumably LF (and EMP in his mafiadiscussion forum post) are trying to argue that massclaim day 1 is viable.

I actually do not have a problem with that. I said it when I replaced in and I repeated it a few times, that suggesting massclaim day 1 (and even meaning it) does not bother me.

My problem is HOW EMP did it, what he said in terms of optimization, strategy and how his massclaiming day 1 was utterly fail and runs counter to his post, hypothesis and conjecture.

1st of all: Assuming EMP really wants a massclaim. That doesn't bother me. In day 1, many players (HF, Fenhl's predecessor are the main ones in my mind) called him out on it and said that it was scummy, he is scum and that his massclaim day 1 idea is stupid. There were arguments as to how much EMP actually "meant" his idea or if it was just "reaction-fishing" or what not.

EMP's main reasoning and argument for wanting to lynch FA was that FA supported massclaim. What is this and how does it make sense? First of all, FA did not support massclaim anywhere near as strong as EMP, Rhinox and others verbally/literally stated and FA's comment was just that he thought EMP was town for suggesting massclaim idea and he resisted HF/Fenhl's predecessors call to arms to lynch EMP based on massclaim. That is my first problem with EMP from when I replaced in was his vote, view of FA and how he lied/misrepresented what was happening.

2nd of all: Assuming EMP is town and just really screwed up his mafia discussion idea, well that also doesn't bother me. Town screws up and does stupid things all the time. My problem with EMP was that instead of using his massclaiming idea as a 'reaction-fishing', get reads on players, and you know, scumhunt, his response was mainly 1. vote for whoever was voting for him, which also happened to coincide with players who hated his massclaim suggestion, 2. vote for FA which doesn't make sense since FA *defended* EMP (and unfortunately helped defeat the wagon), wasn't the leading wagon and he has basically gained absolutely NOTHING from his actions in day 1. Seriously, EMP says I am still one of his main scum suspects yet his arguments and reasoning for it as not changed at all and he has still, previously and perhaps in the future, argued that FA was scum due to massclaim (which is amusing in terms of lies), argued that FA/Corv is scum since FA/Corv hasn't died (but at this point, it isn't a strong argument especially if he is going to claim there are only 2 scum and HF, singer are both town.). As a sidenote: In terms of conspiracy theories regarding 'no lynch', at what point did EMP (and others) think that there were only 2 scum in a 11 player game? I mean, was there any new information gained? 11 players, oh ok, only 2 scum. Well if it is clear now, why wasn't this clear back in day 1 when claiming FA was scum for surviving?

Ugh, getting distracted. My main point (which was my main argument in previous days as well) wasn't that he should be lynched for suggesting massclaim. My problem was with his actions, how he did it, why wouldn't EMP-town try to optimize massclaim-reaction-fish and how he utterly failed in his massclaim (if he was seriously suggesting it), how he was blatantly not scumhunting or using it to any town-advantage, and how he targeted FA for really crappy reasons and then lied about it.

I don't care if massclaiming in mini-normal is viable or not. I care that EMP screwed up massclaiming day 1 in this game, acted like scum and is continuing to give me every single creepy feeling that my instinct tells me I should not let him live.

--
Llama: Occam's razor says that if EMP is trying to prove his point, then he should you know, actually do a good job of it, act townie, get reads, scumhunt right? EMP hasn't done that, so then the simple explanation is that he isn't town right?

If he is trying to show the forum that massclaim works then he certainly shot himself in the foot with this game. And even if you wish to presume that his meta of suggesting the idea implies his alignment, well... I have nothing nice to say about that except it is naive.

I've played with EMP before. I don't consider him to be active in discussion. EMP also (to me) has a meta of shooting himself in the foot when he is scum whether intentionally or just for kicks.

----

Rhinox: When you have time, I'd like you to answer why you think EMP was so strongly town the first two days-ish of this game.

-----

I really really strongly encourage an EMP lynch. If not today, then please consider tomorrow.
I will also note that while I am not certain on haylen, if it is 3 scum, I feel Haylen is a very likely candidate. If it is only 2 scum, then things are slightly different to me but.... Haylen... post or die.

Corvuus
p.s. log in saturday at some point. Hoping to see an EMP lynch.

[Corvuus]

unvote, vote haylen

mod: votecount with deadline time left plz .

deadline should be tomorrow.

Still prefer an EMP lynch but i don't think that is going to happen and i don't have time to beat it to death.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

That is an interesting turn of events but deadline should be TODAY. If this is how you feel DP (and haylen as well) then you probably should have tried doing something about it when there was more time available.

I will note how I have said an EMP + noc + Haylen is a possibility, and I'm somewhat surprised you think i'm not a bad lynch now (but it is DP) and also at your logic when you 1. refer to me as a possible scumbuddy (in reference to who? Nocmen? Seriously?) 2. list Fenhl/Llama as a possibility but also list Llama's defense of EMP... or are you confusing player slots?

At any rate, despite my position for Noc-scum, Noc has consistently stated a Corv + DP + Fenhl/Llama and, if you wish to accuse him of coasting, you could accuse EMP, Rhinox, Haylen, etc. as well.

My problem with Noc is essentially also my problem with you DP. His stated reasoning (which I believe he still follows) is that a Corv-town + DP-town is highly unlikely due to the probability of a Singer-town lynch with Corv-competing wagon. He doesn't like that, nor the vote I had for DP despite the clear reasons I gave for it. I.e. The argument that a DP-scum would not care which person was lynched (Corv-town, Singer-town) and that I (as Corv-town) shouldn't have a problem with it is a naive position and I see no problem with pointing it out as one. There is also the issue of his (Noc) gaining flak for his role (with DP) in flipping the wagon and he may want to lynch me simply to 1. gain information, 2. try to prove himself. I have problems with that, especially since I am town, but in the end my views on Noc are colored mainly by Noc + DP interaction and previous days.

I don't have time now but short version: I consider a Noc + DP scumteam not that likely but that 1 scum is within Noc + DP. There are other things to consider but still .... I'm not pleased with this DP. This might sound extremely crappy coming from me but... what are you thinking in regards to yesterday and today?

-----

EMP: your comments on 1. ok, 2. ok, 3. switch - scum. is an amusing rehash of my own wall of post. I'll just submit that while you 'may' actually believe that, several players have said that the 1. 2. 3. by FA does not strike them as scummy at all. So feel free to post a case based on me (Corvuus) as opposed to still trying to lynch me based on FA.

---

5 needed to lynch, 4 votes on haylen.

Presuming Haylen will not self-vote, I hope 1 of the remaining players not voting her will hammer her today. DP, EMP, Noc.
I will note that, according to my understanding of the deadline rules, Haylen should be deadline lynch-able when I make this post. Feel free to hammer/keep it that way.

Corvuus
p.s. i'm not sure when the exact time is for deadline but I will be gone for at least 6-8 hours if not more.

[Corvuus]

according to my understanding, 3 votes for no lynch will immediately end the day.

so.... just be aware of that with 2 people already voting no lynch.

-------

No lynch or not, all remaining townies have to vote for scum in order to lynch scum.

I still believe we need to lynch EMP.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

3 people voting no lynch means it is impossible for a lynch to occur. Thus, according to fishy's rules/vote counts, 3 no-lynch votes are enough for no lynch to occur.

So it is just waiting until fishy comes in now.

Corv

[Corvuus]

3 votes is enough for a no lynch.

C

[Corvuus]

I will note that this is interesting for several reasons.

1. for meta reasons based on how scumteam think or are educated in handling mylo.
2. generally, scum submitting a 'no kill' in mylo says something about the perceived alignments of the players left. Most usually, this problem occurs when scum 'should' target certain players but either don't want to or can't (because the player in question is actually scum despite being perceived as not scum or the player is town but 'convinced' scum is town or other town is scum and thus desirable to keep in lylo, etc.).
3. Choosing no night kill is also interesting in terms of player weightiness and fear of re-reading connections based on the remaining players. Ironically, regardless of who the targeted night kill is (and also who it isn't), there would be information gleaned as opposed to Haylen, etc.'s flip.

Interesting. I guess we'll keep the no lynch chain going hoping that scum royally screw up their choice.

Corv

[Corvuus]

vote no lynch

.

C

[Corvuus]

I'm going to be re-reading.

There are various parts, but, unless this is interesting scumplay, Neko should have been the nightkill. Pretty much everyone claimed neko as most town. So... Neko, say something. There is the general rule of thumb to lynch the towniest looking player in lylo since it just simply can't be.

----

EMP, you are either the scummiest player in the universe or .... well... the nicest i could say is that you have confusing word choice and grammar.

Self-hammering isn't town, and saying point off his favour has to be something i have never heard before in human language. Since it is lylo, why don't you put in some effort and make a case on players instead of whatever it is you are doing.

------

Fenhl/LF still living as opposed to Noc... is interesting. Noc's #1 was Fenhl/LF. Rhinox also had comments on LF.

---

going to compile my notes later.

C

[Corvuus]

haha.

you guys are a great lylo. I'm glad that you guys are actually going to be here and say something since you know, conversation is how liars are caught. I was mildly worried people would just go afk .

---

1st of all, explain exactly what you mean regarding the wiforminess of my statement(s). I can say whatever i want and I can mean whatever i want. The point is, what do YOU think i mean and what is your problem with it?

2nd of all, someone has to say something/accuse so it might as well be me and see how you all react to it. Bringing up wifom in lylo isn't a problem depending on how you use it. Neko needed to say something regarding living since he should have died. The 'still alive because i am/was wrong argument' is one of the natural scum arguments in the book. If you want to accept it, then give reasons why. The main problem I have with it (in determining Neko's alignment) is that it isn't that Neko's scum choices are 'wrong' it is a matter of Noc as the night kill over Neko. I was hoping Neko would address that and Noc and not just "i'm alive since i am 1. being framed. 2. i've been picking wrong players as scum". Neko is more pro-active than Noc and you can argue that Neko would be more helpful to town in lylo than Noc, regardless of Noc and Neko's individual choices for nightkills. If Neko is town, then awesome, we'll get some great conversation and dialogue. If he is scum, well, that is what talking is for.

-----

DP: It sounds stupid but you would be amazed at how many times it is actually true. I bring it up because... well... why not! Feel free to give more reaction posts though as your last post is fairly horrible. Consider that you say EMP-Corv is impossible and then now you consider it likely. You also give the same argument that has been presented throughout the whole game and shown to be false. Arguing that I "have" to be scum since I am still alive from no lynches is faulty and if you actually re-read and count the votes, Noc, HF, etc. being proven town shows that this simply isn't possible in terms of conspiracy. I'm re-reading Neko and I have no problem with mentioning it to see what he says and does. When you say "re-looking at the game", are you actually re-reading or looking? If so, please post an ISO of me or a case where you specifically point out instead of hand-wave.

I will also note that you had a problem with Fenhl/LF - Corv but now replaced by EMP-Corv. Reasoning?

---------

EMP: My point is this: Normal people say "such and such is definitely not a point in your favour" or "such and such is a point not in his favour". Off is just... off. In terms of english, it implies a deeper meaning in regards to your consideration of me as in, there are points in my favour for being town and the not self-hammering is a point that makes me less town as opposed to my town consideration.

But my point is for you to actually elaborate and make a case. You do realize that the moment of my self-hammering consideration was back when singer was lynched. I considered self-hammer based on expectation of future days, unlikely hood of singer being scum and what I thought was optimal for town based on the fact that I would either 1. be lynched by town later 2. be ignored regardless of what I said. I've pushed who i thought was scum, unvoted for myself as deadline lynch and did what I thought was best. Heck, out of the remaining players, you can probably get the best read on me if you actually tried. Can you dispute this? If so, then do it.

Ironically, Noc is the one who changed his vote resulting in singer's lynch instead of mine. Unless you are going to claim Noc is scum despite his town flip, an argument that I am still alive is faulty (reference to DP) and in terms of switching it (argument on DP-scum switching vote between two towns, Noc refusal) is interesting. Self-hammering at later times (my biggest regret in this game is being VLA in Taiwan when I could have gotten EMP lynched back around Christmas) just wasn't a reasonably play for me specifically because I believed there would be 3 scum. Haylen believed the same thing in her 'bah' post, and in terms of conspiracy of knowledge, there were 2-3 players who suggested 2 scum only FIRST. The question is when this knowledge occurred and whether they were playing that way in previous days before it became an issue. Rhinox-town mentioned it (to which players just quoted and agreed with him) but the question (which EMP hasn't answered despite i asking him way back before no lynches) was at what point in the game did EMP decide that there was only 2 scum left? EMP argues that 11 p is 2 scum based on various reasons but if the conclusion is self-evident, why didnt he conclude it earlier in day 1-day 2 when he specifically argues for FA's lynch based on conspiracy survival and, in terms of arguing against why the FA-scum wagon didn't de-rail says that scum might not have had enough votes to derail it, a position a 2 scum team with EMP-DP as lead wagons would be in. At what point did you know there was 2 scum in this game EMP?

I will also note that an EMP-DP scumteam is a possibility based on voting pattern and day 1 votes. EMP-DP never voted each other throughout the "3 way wagon for FA, DP, EMP". I am still slightly confused regarding DP's push for EMP back in Christmas since it only makes sense in two possible ways and i'm unsure whether DP would make that choice... unless he was advised to do so? DP, why did you make a push for EMP back in Christmas?

I'm not sure at all on 2-initial scum team bus strategy.
------

Neko: I didn't say i'm voting for you (as opposed to DP and EMP saying that they will vote Corv). I said you need to say something so I can determine your alignment. If you feel that this wasn't done in good faith or you suspect that I am setting you up, do consider that instead of people 'hopping' on with me, they are 'hopping' on against me. Other than that, look forward to your re-reading. Oh, you mention that your reads are 'wrong' but what exactly are you referring to? You wanted Fenhl/LF as the lynch first as opposed to Haylen
and DP before that, both of the players are still alive. So how exactly are you wrong?
----

Llama: I have comments for you but since you are going to post on wednesday, I think it more prudent to wait for your apparently 3 town reads, 1 scum read since I had a read on Fenhl but I don't have anything from you except EMP's massclaim and thinking EMP is town.

My time will be slightly sporadic-ish but i should be around.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

you are right LF regarding Noc. I was reading off my rather messy notes. Sorry.
---
LF:

In your post #14, you said you have 3 people with a somewhat town read on. Who is the missing person?

You say you (LF) are tired and I would tend to agree. There are some errors in your post #16. "To make EMP town he would have to be scum with neko" should be "to make EMP scum". There are at least two others with respect to other points.

My issues are these:

1. You are confusing intention with happenstance. If EMP DID make the thread in order to influence people's thoughts on alignment, then that is intention and would not be a good thing for EMP's character, etc. If EMP made the thread with no alterior motive or intention but simply because of his feelings regarding massclaim, then there is no problem with his character (I have no problem with EMP's character) but this would make the massclaim a null-tell (could be made as town or as scum) as opposed to "he MUST be town". It is random happenstance that it ended up this way since 1. the thread wasn't made until later in the game, 2. no guarantee that any of us would actually read or know about it. 3. It is also not an indicator of his alignment in this specific game as well.


2. You seem intent on beating to death that EMP is town (which is interesting to me). You also state that on a skim, you think EMP is town. Exactly what did you skim or read OTHER than massclaim that makes you think he is town?

3. You say that "any vote thrown out should give me my duo". How does this work?

4. Anything else in your notes regarding Neko-Corv? Specifically, if you believe this then make note of specific vote interaction throughout the days, selection of night kills, etc. I.e. why would Neko-Corv allow EMP into lylo as opposed to Noc when more players were willing to lynch Noc than there are willing to lynch EMP and EMP would almost certainly vote for Corv as opposed to Noc considering Corv-DP-LF.
------------------------------------------

DP:
I am scumhunting. I'm just saying stuff to get a reaction out of people.
Saying stuff about Neko is shooting myself in the foot if he is town and if Neko-town, I need him to vote scum with me but I thought it was worth making since it helps me determine alignment and is amusing enough that everyone would say something about it.

I like your response and I don't see you aligned with EMP.
Since there are good odds that you are town and I need you to vote with me... well... hi! Would you like some kool-aid?

With regards to my defense, is there anything other than the 'still alive/no lynches' that you wish to accuse me of that I can comment/defend on? Otherwise, i'm not planning on voting for you today and I hope at the very least, you make sure that you are not the first person to place a vote but (if town) the last.

---
EMP: as much as most people in mafiascum would say that walls of text are bad, etc. I would love a big post from you, especially with regard to why I am scum and if you could be so encouraged, who you think is town & scum for the remaining group.

---

General comment:
I find it interesting that LF's accusation of Neko is a mirror of Neko's accusation of LF and that DP is mentioned as well as consistently not voting Corv at deadline.
i.e. Neko post #34, LF consistently not voting Corv and not voting for a lynch candidate, DP not voting FA/Corv at deadline.
i.e. LF's post #797(#16 in iso i think), Neko not voting Corv.

The only two people who have consistently voted for each other are EMP and Corv.
--
I find Neko's stance more town than LF's stance right now.

----

Neko: Is there something you would like me to address specifically?




Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Again, my problem is that it is a pure meta consideration and that the one single meta consideration overwhelms every other thing he has said and done.
---

Example:
First off, if EMP is in any future normal mini games (details in MD thread, etc.) then he will suggest massclaim regardless of alignment. Why? Well, if he is scum, and he doesn't do it, then people will wonder why, if EMP town thinks it is such a great idea, why didn't EMP do it? Thus they would get a scumtell off of him for not doing the optimal play. If EMP is town, he will do it since he thinks it is optimum and best play for town. In both cases, EMP *HAS* to do it. I.e. it is not a solid town tell when the optimal play for EMP scum or EMP town is the same/nearly identical. Of course, he could argue that it isn't a normal mini or there are other factors for why it shouldn't be done but regardless of how much detail you, or I or EMP, would like to go into it does not make it so that EMP is overwhelmingly town that all other considerations are secondary.
Second, if you remove the massclaim = EMP obvious town consideration and re-read EMP's play, what do you have left? Have you considered EMP outside of the massclaim attempt?
-------------------------

If you are wrong about EMP and you are town and he is scum, then town is virtually guaranteed a loss since all 3 town must vote for scum in order to get scum lynched. I'm having a hard time of seeing EMP town (LF, Neko, DP permutations) and since I am town, you must want my vote in order to get a town win right? Currently, you aren't winning my vote in anything except considering an EMP-LF pairing.

As another sidenote, if I am wrong and EMP is town, then the game is also virtually loss to scum since I have a hard time seeing a scenario where EMP-town and Corv-town vote for anyone together and despite my attempts and re-readings to consider an EMP town permutation, he hasn't done anything to convince me, scumhunt or otherwise show me that there is a possibility that EMP is town and that I should consider voting with him as opposed to trying to lynch him. If you don't believe this claim, just realize that while EMP was my biggest suspect coming into lylo, I attacked 'everyone' in lylo to get reads on everyone, including EMP. He is currently 'stonewalling' and just not answering or responding outside of just quick blerbs which screams EMP-scum to me based on previous EMP-meta plays.
-----

In regards to point 4, Noc and DP were gunning for each other respectively. My point of Neko-Corv is different, but whatever. It is just wifom.

Corvuus
p.s. I find your scum vote for scum faulty as compared to town must vote with town. If, in the grand scheme of things, EMP and LF are town, then the 2/3 scum will not vote for themselves but for the 1/3 town. You have shown no indication which way or side you would take.

[Corvuus]

DP: cherry flavored victory kool-aid.

----------------------------------------

Things have picked up in RL and my activity will be extremely limited. Generally either early early morning or late late night (pst time) for the upcoming week. I will be around at those times though.

-----------

I am by no means 100% certain on EMP and there are only a few permutations that make sense for EMP-scum and EMP-town.

but I will put it to you this way LF, if you re-read this game, my one true consistent form has been this: People defending EMP, answering for him, claiming he is overwhelming town based on massclaim/hidden reasons... are scummy to me.

It is shooting oneself in the foot, but my entire day 2 play and line of thinking was based on EMP as scum, people who defend him are very likely to be scum for various reasons.

I like(d) Rhinox. He was town to me and then he defended EMP, even saying EMP is certain town without specific reasoning for it outside of MC meta. This made me think Rhinox was scum based on confirmation, biased opinion (hidden evidence?) and at the very least anti-town for his specific views. My problem with Rhinox dropped when he later admitted that EMP "could" be scum. I like(d) AD until ScottB replaced and said "emp is certain town" as opposed to AD saying EMP is scum. I called AD/SB scum for this despite the hole i was digging since needing a majority to vote to lynch, it isn't good to call everyone scum who protects/sides with EMP. But I simply didn't care because the reasoning for EMP-town is no where near convincing for me and the more you try to push EMP as 'certain' town, the more I will fight against it.

So, are you surprised that I am fighting EMP-certain town read when I have done so consistently throughout this entire game? Neko seems neutral on the issue (at the very least, he has stated that EMP massclaim is not a strong town-meta but null), DP is somewhere willing for an EMP lynch whether based on Christmas and his Corv-EMP suspicion. So the main issue comes down to this, if Rhinox, SB, etc. had said EMP is not certain town but perhaps leaning, or meta or null or anything that wasn't "EMP is obvious confirmed town, we will not lynch him", I probably wouldn't have gone crazy on them. Heck, if Haylen had actually showed up and voted EMP instead of none-existing, I'd have been much less likely to see her as scum, just as singersinger also voted/disliked EMP and I liked him that much more for it.

You are saying EMP is certain town. For meta-massclaim reasoning... something I can not agree with. You are also saying you have 'skimmed' or read EMP (outside of massclaim) and still find him as town. I find this suspect since when ever I try re-reading EMP to be 'sure' of his alignment, I think he is scum. I have considered self-read-confirmation bias but still get EMP scum vibes.

------------
If EMP is scum, I'm not 100% sure of his scumbuddy but hopefully you can understand LF that you are higher in probability because you are fighting 'so hard' for EMP as certain town. Which I hate. (the action, not the person).

I'm still waiting for a case from EMP (whether on me or whoever), a defense/answer from EMP and I stand by my assertion that an EMP-meta is a 'shooting oneself in the foot' type. EMP-scum tends to defeat himself. So by all means I want him to post more, wall of post, conversation since if he is town, he should have no problem, no reason to fear, but if he is scum, he most likely will end up showing it. Which is why I am so paranoid about EMP having said as little as possible, short glib few sentences, just checking in 'hello, here is my vote' type. I've considered whether scum would want to use my anti-EMP stance if EMP is town but this doesn't seem a likely permutation... unless scum think patience, saying nothing and let Corv dig his own hole is a plan.... which would be amusing.

----------

so hey, tldr. EMP is not 100% scum to me but I won't let anyone call him certain town.

so my main question and problem with you LF is this: Why is fighting so strongly for EMP-town read better to you as compared to scumhunting the 2 remaining scum? Especially when a EMP-LF team would act like you are, especially with regards to saying the equivalent of "EMP-LF are town, the remaining 3 players will vote for 1 of the other 3 players, find duo, lynch" when that doesn't seem as likely for various reasons.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

was trying to re-read a few parts and check my notes.
-----
Perhaps more relevant in terms of my relationship with players and their stance on EMP is this.

Fenhl wanted to lynch EMP. I liked Fenhl. My basis for not agreeing with Fenhl's wagon by Neko-EMP-Noc was based on 1. belief it was 3 scum mylo, quicklynch wagon 2. EMP was on the wagon, 3. Fenhl voted EMP. 4. belief that Fenhl wasn't scum.

I also (while I didn't like his lack of activity) liked LrdWhyt because he had a measured response to EMP, voted EMP scum and pointed out EMP's failed attempt, response, etc.

Iso lordwhyt #20 and iso lordwhyt #4, parts of his subsequent posts #5-onwards.

Lwdwhyt #4

No, everybody in town has to claim truthfully and we can then use the claims to work out who the falseclaim scum are.

I disagree. Claiming might help in one way, but it most certainly doesn't help in figuring out who the scum are. It just narrows down the lynching pool if done correctly.

[/quote] *snips*

LwdWhyt is against massclaiming but doesn't think EMP is scum for it yet. His position gradually shifts from neutral, talking with AD/FA on it not being inherently scummy until AD/EMP happens and EMP continues to push massclaim and LwdWhyt finally votes for EMP. In fact, the majority of my read, play and arguments day 2 are based on my read catching up and LwdWhyt's #20.

LwdWhyt didnt choose what was 'easy', he chose what he felt was right. As did HF, AD, etc. The issue of iso #20 is EMP buddies could be incog/neko or DP if EMP flips scum. LwdWhyt's post exchange with Rhinox were similar to mine in that we didn't believe we were reading the same game since the interpretations, reads, etc. were completely different.

LwdWhyt dropped off from existence but was presumably willing for EMP and is probably why HF was so frustrated with him since we needed majority to lynch EMP and replacements liked EMP better than the people they replaced.

---

I bring this up LF because 1. I strongly disagree with EMP certain town read, 2. I believed your slot is town and i'm somewhat frustrated that, again, a replacement believes EMP overwhelmingly town despite predecessor, despite actually EMP play and just a meta read. EMP lies and accuses players of exactly what he does, yet finds it scummy in others but not in himself? Pretty much every exchange EMP goes through with LwdWhyt, AD, HF is horrible for EMP yet this strikes you as emp-town?

Seriously, how many lies and misrepresentations does EMP need to do to beat a "massclaim confirmed town meta". EMP says there are advantages and disadvantages to a massclaim, but advantages outweigh disadvantages. LwdWhyt disagrees and gives a disadvantage. EMP calls him lying scum for giving 1 disadvantage as opposed to 'several' as the "s" at the end of disadvantages would imply... despite the usage already started previously in saying advantages, disadvantages and EMP's continued use of 'disadvantages' in his own posts.

Why was EMP so after LwdWhyt, Fenhl, etc. yet LF replaces, says EMP is town based on meta and EMP suddenly claims "good recent town play". Seriously? What about convinction (EMP accusation of FA, EMP iso #89)? What about "I'm pretty sure Fenhl is scum", etc.? What is EMP's reasoning? Why is it just "in the moment" reactionary play instead of "this is who scum is, this is who town is, these are my reads".

----

LF, I strongly think EMP has a very high probability of being scum and, if so, I highly doubt a EMP-LF scum pairing based on EMP-LwdWhyt-Fenhl but you are not helping me in my reads and, if you are town, you are forcing me to choose a scum that isn't EMP which I am much less sure about, nor am I confident enough that if EMP is scum and you are with him in a 3 player lylo, you would make the correct choice.

Neko, DP: Are you either of you 'willing' for a vote on EMP? I'm not saying actually vote i'm just asking if you are willing.

Just for the "record", I think a EMP-Neko pairing more likely than a EMP-DP one but I'd much much prefer an EMP lynch first.

Corvuus
p.s. EMP: if by any strange fluke of the universe you are town, you better do something now.
p.p.s. DP, you can feel it is buddying but the fact is, all townies must vote for scum to lynch scum. Whether I like you or not I have no choice but to at least attempt to get your vote given that I am not sure you are scum. I don't care for EMP's vote since I think EMP is scum. Do you have a problem with voting for EMP or just a problem with me trying to convince you to vote EMP? Your latest response makes me edit my post to say a EMP-DP is perhaps even with an EMP-Neko.

[Corvuus]

I guess talking is over. Especially since you are V/LA and probably since more people re-reading and thinking about you EMP will realize how scummy you really are.

vote EMPking

I'm not sure if messed up tags matter or not, but Corv-EMP are at 1 vote.

LF: I made my post because I believed your slot to be town. Please read/consider before voting.

Neko, DP: I'm not sure what to say since i just called you both EMP potential scumbuddies. EMP is scum. I'm just a stubborn eccentric-crazed townie. I'm voting EMP based on conviction and while I could have just courted both of your votes (Neko, DP) to try to get 3 on EMP, I felt LF was town and that I would need his vote. I'm not scum, i'm not taking the 'easy way' of just lynch whoever. In terms of EMP's "vote count of Corv's wagons are so overwhelmingly town", you have to realize that later on, these players said that they thought Corv was town, deadline lynch votes, etc.

I probably won't be back until much much later tonight (10 pmish pst).

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Once Neko checks in (and unless this is a cruel joke), then non EMP/Corv teams are impossible. We can't both be town.

I'll be around but limited.

Corv

[Corvuus]

EMP: If Lrd was a lying lurker, what happened between Lrd/Fenhl and LF replacing in?
-----------

LF: In one sense, I should copy EMP's #2 point and just say it 'could be anyone!' and see how people react. But for a more serious answer.

1. Everyone (other than EMP) is responsible for me still being alive. Neko, Fenhl/LF, DP all (at one point or another) 'prevented' a Corv lynch whether on purpose or by accident or whatever. (Neko's iso post #34, LF's iso post #16, post #797).
2. You ask me how unlikely i consider an LF-EMP pairing, whether he was strategizing, etc.
This is from my perspective so bear with me.
- I am town and thus EMP *must* be scum since the game isn't over.
- Re-reading from this perspective we have to consider consistency of character, slot and actions in mind.
1st: DP is not a very likely partner of EMP and when I mentioned DP might have planned something out with EMP and was bussing in Christmas, DP's response strikes me as genuine and real. It is consistent with DP play overall and, despite DP's interesting style, he does feel EMP is scummy and did want him lynched at least back in Christmas. I consider DP impossible to be an EMP partner.
2nd: Considering LF-EMP relationship would be difficult if I just analyze EMP alone and try to summarize whether he planned on massclaiming, what he expected, how it played out etc. I could guess but it is just 'bleh'. For the most part, I don't think EMP strategized at all. I don't think there is anything constructive left to say about that.

The question you really should be asking is whether LwdWhyt/Fenhl/LF would make that play as opposed to EMP making his play and his scumpartner being forced to accept it. LwdWhyt's shift is measured and his EMP-scum feeling doesn't come on immediately, but the reaction of the two to each other... consistently, remembering, etc. is not a bussing scumbuddy type. There is real feeling there. Fenhl showed similar attributes in flip-flopping and choosing EMP and that struck me as real since his first inclination was EMP when it wasn't 'easy' and how the christmas lynch played out. Again, EMP choosing to quickwagon Fenhl the subsequent day, and then flip-flop conviction is strange for EMP but not for Fenhl. So instead of asking whether EMP would be likely to do what he did if he was scum, why not ask, would EMP-DP or EMP-LF partners make sense at all?

So from my point of view, EMP *has* to be scum and Neko, you are by far the most likely candidate to be his partner beyond LF or DP since they are extremely unlikely partners.

This is troubling to me since I considered you town for the whole game and the only time I began to be concerned with you is
Neko iso #30. You were voting with EMP on the quickwagon on Fenhl and that didn't drive me crazy since I considered unlikely that 3 scum would vote like that, and you were just town that happened to be there (which is also why i focused on you to convince you to not vote with EMP scum) but then your attempt on LwdWhyt/Fenhl rubbed me completely the wrong way (Corvuus iso #53). This still didn't make me think you were scum, and there is Haylen/Incog and other factors which would imply a more likely town player but EMP *is* scum and as you said in your iso #30, EMP being scum with Corv/Fenhl is just not likely at all. EMP-DP is also unlikely, so you are the only player left.

LwdWhyt iso #20, Day 1 vote count 13 and final votecount. It was Incog who looked at the tied 3 votes for EMP and FA and voted for FA. I voted with you, Fenhl and DP for different parts of the game.

So, since you asked EMP who he thought my partner is, my current thoughts are that EMP's partner is you.

I'm slightly perplexed on a few different points but that is the most probable scenario to me based on elimination of player slots, reads, etc.

I'm not sure if this is the best strategy to tell you that I think you are EMP's partner since I could hope for a 4 vote/scum bus EMP attempt but i have different feelings on that.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I'm disappointed but congratulations to the scum team.

I was fairly convinced of DP-town but after EMP and I voted for each other it was game over. (I guess scum daytalked to figure out time to place votes/hammer the town player they wanted to).
-----
Honestly, EMP I tried to see you as town at different times during this game and it just didn't happen for me. When I mentioned in my previous post that "if you are town, this is your chance to convince me" that was honest. I was preparing for a vote on you (saturday) but I don't believe in any game that 'things are certain/fate, etc.' so I was surprised you voted for me without saying anything and, since i know that i myself am town, I am forced to vote you in return regardless of anything else.

In terms of my lylo play, I was worried about inactivity and 'cutting close to deadline' since my time would drop dramatically in the upcoming week.... so attacking everyone and trying to get a response was to just double-check. I didn't like your response at all Neko but other than helping me confirm that DP was town, I felt that I needed to get votes and prepare for a move since my general opinion was that LF-Neko were going to hedge, DP would follow, EMP would stay silent. That was saturday and my flip-flop on attacking LF, to then try and convince LF to vote with me and provoke a response from EMP. Did you honestly think i was scum EMP or what? I can 100% assure you that if I was scum i would have either nightkilled you or just called you town like everyone else and hedged so I'm not sure what you thought about me when I did things counter to being Corv-scum.

If Neko and LF both hedged in their response, I was going to push a Neko lynch (for various reasons that I outlined before plus he would be 'easier' to lynch than EMP with DP and potentially LF). If LF refused/changed response on Neko and EMP actually said something other than voting then maybe things would have been different with people talking. Not very likely at all though. The only thing I found strange about LF was exasperation in tone.

-----------------------

In terms of self-lynch, hammering. I fully planned on hammering myself over voting singersinger since I didn't think people would listen and optimum town move for me was to remove myself so that my slot wouldn't be an issue. Singer was hammered by the switch vote when i was gone which I didn't expect.

If the Christmas lynch on EMP was successful, then town might have had a chance as well.

In terms of Haylen lynch, Haylen, I understand VLA but it was deadline and you had several days before your VLA on weekends. If you had voted EMP or said something, I might have tried for deadline extension, push like I did in previous days but you were a suspect if 3 scum team and I wasn't willing to derail your lynch with having no idea of your alignment. So while you may consider it 'poor play', you bear some responsibility for your own lynch as well.
-------

If I was in the game from the beginning as opposed to FA-replacement, then things might have been different as well.

I'll respond if you guys have any questions or further comments. Otherwise, gg.

Corv
p.s. good game fishy.