Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[DavidParker]

/conformation

[DavidParker]

AdumbroDeux

I think you not wanting someone in lylo based on a gameplay issue is a bit extreme. Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

[DavidParker]

Well I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason. Get used to it.

Or just vote me off.

[DavidParker]

I'm struggling to comment further as a massive Halloween party has hampered my functionality.

[DavidParker]

Vote: AdumbroDeus

[DavidParker]

I think he had other motives behind suggesting a day 1 claim. He's obviously not dumb enough to think people would have agreed to a mass claim. And this game isn't full of inexperienced players so he wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. Recklessness = Town in my eyes.

[DavidParker]

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.

Oh trust me, I'm not even going to argue or refute this, because it's true. But I'm buddying because I'm right (he is town) and don't mind using silly falacies if I have to.

[DavidParker]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Jester speculation gets town nowhere....and I have a policy...

Vote: fallen angel

[DavidParker]

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

The notion that I am a VI is preposterous and just a quick look at some of my recent games will make it obvious that I have done all my "strange/crazy/non-sensical" actions with a purpose in mind. But really, we should be looking at this game and not discussing player meta and game theory at this point.

[DavidParker]

Empking is town. Lay off him.

As it stands, scum are just sitting back enjoying themselves, because they have an easy target in empking (for suggesting the massclaim, and myself (for claiming empking is town and not justifying my reads when we are only 4-5 pages into the game).. How about we go after someone who is scum now?

I doubt scum would be on same wagon, so look for one on empking's and one on mine. And we set.

HF+Fallen Angel seems like a combo to go with right now.

[DavidParker]

I've stated why I think empking is town.

The reasons for thinking those 2 is scummy is because the way they voted+made cases seemed like oppurtunistic scum. Their votes didn't seem "sincere" but rather them trying to push a mislynch-wagon through (and this strenghtened my town read on empking)

The MC is obviously largely WIFOM (Although not entirely), it's not a good suggestion to make as town, but then how does it help him if he's scum? IT just puts him in the limelight and gains negative attention (Something I know all too well, and believe within reason is a good way to start a day), so with that I find it more likely a town than scum would do it, and the way he dealt with it after was very town.

Do the townies out of you who are on my/emp's wagons plan on doing some legit scum hunting and go after people who are actually scum on our wagons?? Or are you happy to vote for me for being known for anti-town behaviour and empking for getting discussion started by drawing some negative attention to him.

[DavidParker]

There's a scum benefit to a mass claim, but it's still WIFOM because a mass-claim was NEVER going to happen day 1. He knew that, we knew that, everyone knew that. Hence it is WIFOM. If there was a realistic chance of a mass claim occurring then maybe it wouldn't be wifom and it would be scummy but that was never going to happen.

Can we stop talking about WIFOM now????

[DavidParker]

oh wow i like this HF guy he is townm... As for my opinion on singerstar, I've had a scummy vibe from her every game except the first game i Had with her when i was town an die and was convinced she was town but she got lynched in lylos omehow (even though my scumpick was town, i still had singer as town foshooo,f akrimsdrunk), anyways, singer i always find scummsy since then somehow, and HF is town and emp is town. time to find anoter scum on his wagob or mayb etheres' none.

[DavidParker]

Will it never happen D1? I have seen players that are significantly better then pretty much everyone in the game pull similar BS on multiple occasions.

Give us one.

One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

Which are?

This suggestion by Adumbro is ridiculous (since it's not true) and borderline scummy for setting up two mislynches. I'm struggling to find a scum-motive behind claiming something like this (since scum know it's not true), but it's enough to warrant my vote.

Vote: Adumbro

[DavidParker]

If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages why do you feel that in none of these games a day 1 mass-claim occurs?

[DavidParker]

@Incognito

: The issue with DP is not so much the "recklessness is a towntell" thing, that's true enough, but it's a minor tell at best. The real concern is how SURE he seems that EMP is town. My earlier comments in regards to their relationship stand.

@Empking

: viewtopic.php?p=2613039#p2613039, viewtopic.php?p=2612656#p2612656, viewtopic.php?p=2610154#p2610154, viewtopic.php?p=2605267#p2605267.


All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

When I get a town read on someone early, I state them as town. Feel free to check other games I am in and you'll see the same thing occurring.

[DavidParker]

So Singer is nocman's scum buddy?

[DavidParker]

I'm indifferent to a mass claim actually, I don't think it will help us tremendously but I don't think it will hurt us greatly either. We shouldn't be relying on PRs as it is.

[DavidParker]

There's nothing useful to an Emp lynch.

The FA wagon right now is the only wagon with a case that I find scummy attached to it. Although I do believe nocman/singer is likely to be scum (at least 1 of them)

[DavidParker]

If you're the best player, if you're town, who is scum? If you're scum.. Well.. Who's your scum buddies?

[DavidParker]

Well the self-proclaimed best player!

[DavidParker]

She's done that in other games as well (when she flipped town), although i still find her as probable-scum in this game, just saying that shouldn't be used a scum-tell in itself.

[DavidParker]

I like nocmen's last post. Your not singer's scum buddy after all it seems! A fallen or singer lynch seems to be a good outcome for today.

[DavidParker]

I should have voted FA. THat was my fault. I'm aware people may come in and accuse me of forcing or trying to make a no lynch but I literally did not know the deadline would come upon us that quick. A mistake on my part.

[DavidParker]

Village Idiot.

[DavidParker]

Vote: Rhinox

[DavidParker]

I'll gladly go along with it.

This looks more promising than the FA wagon.

[DavidParker]

I agree that there is likely scum off his wagon. (Hence my post upon start of day, I am at fault for not hammering at the end of day 1)

However, there had been no talk of the upcoming deadline and no one had even mentioned when it was (as far as I can remember, please correct me if wrong) and there was no urgency to get a lynch happening on that specific day. That is why I had no idea I needed to switch my vote.

[DavidParker]

I agree it's playstyle as well. (OMG Buddying continues!!!)

Although that's what i stated earlier in the game..

[DavidParker]

I'd be willing to lynch cruelty for the amount he has lurked.

[DavidParker]

Corv is fine by me at the moment. Rhinox is a potentially worthy lynch and cruelty is likely to flip scum as well.

[DavidParker]

I'm pretty sure cruelty is lurker scum.

Vote cruelty

[DavidParker]

Cruelty and Lrd.

[DavidParker]

Cruelty is largely for lack of inactivity and just the way he has been lurking/inactive hasn't seemed genuine and actually seems like strategic lurking.

Lrd is for scumminess points, see emp's case largely.

@HF: I was voting for rhinox because of what I saw as a "scum slip", noone agreed. So, I've let it go. I didn't have a case on him being scum, just a single scum slip. As for singer, I've been back and forth on her. Right now I think she's more likely town, although I wouldn't oppose her lynch, i'd prefer the two I listed.

[DavidParker]

Lrd: Youb said "disadvantages" when you couold only think of one "disadvantage" this is scummy because it suggests that he wasn't really thinking about what he was saying or, more likely, he wasn't thinking about what he was saying with a town motivation.
Also, the accusation that I haven't voted Lrd is clearly a lie.
What is lurking?

As stated, my vote being on AD at deadline was a mistake on my part. I thought we had more time.

I simply left my vote there rather than unvoting and moving it to an "actual" wagon because I was still analysing the game to see which lynch I wanted to push of the wagons that were there. I had no idea deadline was upon us, no one was acting with any sense of urgency and there was no real mention of it, so I was happy to see how the game progressed before moving my vote.

[DavidParker]

Yeah that quote was meant to be you. Don't know what I was doing/thinking. No i'm not ignoring you.

[DavidParker]

of the two "prevailing" wagons i don't want to vote for either. If i have to i'd choose coorvus over emp. I'd rather a singer lynch to both of them though.

[DavidParker]

DP, my patience is wearing thin. Please answer my other question.

Is it really now??

You guys aren't making a lot of sense to me.

Noc: read my previous posts and respond when you have time please.

DP: Why would you choose me over EMP when just so many posts ago you would choose EMP over me? Are you literally going to sheep which ever direction things are going in an attempt to stay alive or what exactly are you doing? Of the two 'prevailing wagons'. You do realize that we both only have 2 votes on us, singer has 1 and that if you placed your vote on singer instead of 'flip-flop'/cruelty (which I don't understand since you haven't said anything about it) then singer would also be a 'prevailing wagon'? I'm still inclined towards useless town but wth.

I never said I wanted to vote for emp. i've been callign EMP town all game. You are misinformed.

[DavidParker]

antihero is onto something anyways.

Vote: Singer

(more mindless "following the wagons" amirite neko?)

[DavidParker]

That post amused me greatly.

[DavidParker]

My thoughts are sporadic and continually changing. I have no intention to "gather" them. Why don't you ask questions of people actually willing to respond to them and use them to the town's advantage. You should have realized by now I have no intention to cooperate with your silly questions and requests.

[DavidParker]

Oh wait, antihero replaced Cruelty? I'm really not following this game.. Else I may have noticed ScumHero buddying up to the one person who attacked the person he replaced.

Vote: antihero!

[DavidParker]

I'm bad at remembering deadlines (see day 1)

Vote: singer

[DavidParker]

Vote: Anti-hero

I really hope corv+singer aren't scum together at this point.

[DavidParker]

Neko, I like you. You are probably town. I will answer any questions posted from now on, although I will say ahead of time that it's likely I cannot remember the exact reasons for previous reads/actions, but I will do my best. You have won me over.

[DavidParker]

Neko I have every intention of thoroughly answering your questions at this point, but something has come up and I must
V/LA til monday.

I realize this is post deadline, and as it stands there are 2 prominent wagons the singer and Coorvus wagon so I'll move my vote to try make sure a nolynch doesnt happen. ANtihero gets off today!

Vote: Coorvus

[DavidParker]

Back early from v/la.

At this point I will wait til tomorrow to post content and reply, as I have a bit of catching up to do in all my games. Seeing as we are 24hours from deadline and at this point a singer lynch still needs 3 votes (seems unlikely) I think it's time for a hammer (and that will help me catch up during night :/)

[DavidParker]

If anything hammering at deadline wins town-points to some extent, as it not a scum-tell. It benefits town to ensure a lynch happened. With that said, scum are just as likely to do so to avoid seeming scummy for not hammering.

[DavidParker]

I'd rather a singer lynch now.

Vote: Singersigner

[DavidParker]

/bandwagon case that I like

Vote: Noc

[DavidParker]

buggah fucking shit

[DavidParker]

Umm, I was completely trashed last night. My apologies.

I realize I switched my vote *nearish* to deadline day 2, but that's because there was still time for a different lynch (ie: singer over Corv) and I felt singer was a better lynch at the time. I knew people would be around for deadline this time as it had been explicitly stated multiple times unlike day 1 where it just came upon us.

Umm as for some of those things u pointed out, I think you'll find you're exaggerating the case a Lot. Such as when I voted rhinox "without explanation", it was just after someone pointed out a scum slip, I believed it was a scum slip too so I voted him, obviously implying I agreed with the previous post.

Your case points are constantly about "he did this, but didn't explain why" or "he said this, but didn't explain why well enough"

You also seem to attack me for changing my mind (ie: in regards to singer vs Corv), as the game goes my opinions and reads change.

[DavidParker]

Corv's latest post was terrible.

Vote: Corv

Mostly the part about having a go at the town for speculating on buddying/interactions following a corv flip, then he attacks the town saying they shoudl think about what a dp or nocmen lynch would do for his speculation. You are trying to divert the lynch onto myself/nocmen here in a very scummy way. I don't like it.

As for your "thiinking out for the town", i have no intention of rushing through lylo and quick-voting or voting foolishly in the event that I reach lylo.

[DavidParker]

i'm back, content soon

[DavidParker]

HI HAYLEN!!! Congrats on reaching the nano-wrimo Goal! I don't know you, but I myself undertook the challenge (and thankfully accomplished it as well!) and probably can understand half of what you went through with it.. Welcome!

DP, you're allowed to change your mind. Obviously. But you change your vote so frequently and without any explanation, that I don't think you're doing any scumhunting with them. And you're right--a large portion of my case has to do with you not giving reasons for thing. You're not cooperating with the town--and I can't imagine you have any pro-town reasons for it.

My reasons for my vote-changing and often not giving reasons to them is associated with the way I tend to play and scum hunt.. While it might not fit with this site's idea of what is "pro-town", i've found it quite useful in determining who is scum and getting reactions :/

Not cooperating is all part of the plan

[DavidParker]

No I can't it's my play style. Feel free to see other games where I vote-hop in similar patterns if you want.

[DavidParker]

Because I had a gut scum-read stronger on singer. I decided to go with it. I'm voting you now because the case on you is a strong one and I believe you have behaved scummily and your wagon on day 1 not being hammered indicates quite possible scum. My gut is leaning town on you but looking at your iso I see my head telling me scum...

[DavidParker]

christmas time sucks with family and travelling to keep up to date :/ will try my hardest SOON!!!

[DavidParker]

Okay, sorry for my lack of activity christmas and what not has been kicking my butt timewise, I'll "legitimately" catch up by tomorrow (if not i'll be replacing myself/voting myself), especially since ill be v/la for a few days over new years. so expect some input before then!

[DavidParker]

umm, what's going on.

[DavidParker]

Okay that was a test post, i have a huge post lined up that I can't post when I click submit or preview i get a message saying "The page you are looking for is temporarily unavailable.
Please try again later. "

maybe it's too long... or something in it that's messing up.

[DavidParker]

Part1.


Current Thoughts after a re-read and various isos which were long overdue:

I don't feel like EmpKing is "definitely town" anymore. My initial bias to thinking this was based on him wanting a mass-claim day 1. I interpreted as reaction-fishing and not a serious request. While it probably was in part reaction-fishing, it was definitely a legitimate suggestion in his eyes that he believed would help the town more than hurt. As such, I'd say it's part of his meta and something he would do as town or scum since he is of the opinion that mass claim in the mini-normals is a good day 1 move. I feel that even scum-emp may have suggested it.

Early mass claim debacle-
Emp gets no scum or town points (despite what I said earlier, looking back at the time I felt he was town, and that confirmation bias has somewhat affected my judgment for something that wasn't even necessarily pro-town).
HF gets some scum points. He suggests everyone will claim VT (even as a PR in the event of a massclaim), that seems to be more encouraging everyone to mass-claim VT (if a massclaim were to happeN), which defies the point of it, the point is to look at setup based on the mass claim and see which claims make sense and which don't and where we are likely to find scum. PR's are meant to claim what they are for it to work. Seems like he was trying to de-rail the massclaim in the event it happened.


Moving on, looking at people's reactions to my appalling play this game:

Fallen_angel: Points out numerous fallacies in my reasoning behind votes (or lack of reasoning). He actually picked up on me "tunnel-visioning his[emp's] innocence". +Town points.
My response: Early game my scum hunting and start-of-game-play in general (especially as town) is always reaction-fishing. Reaction-fishing to my reckless and illogical play in general. In past games I have made dumb claims, ie: claimed VT as doctor on day 1 when I had 1 vote on me (and proceeded to successfully protect the scum-target 3 nights in a row), played like an arrogant prick, played intentionally dumb and thrown down the newbie card continuously as a joke, and various other things. It's how I generally start the game, I know it's not always optimal and people often frown upon it, and can often get lynched for it. Now the reason I mentioned my "appalling play" that I was going to respond to, was because I didn't even attempt to scum-hunt much after starting the game how I usually do. I semi-lost interest (not entirely true, I did get very busy at work.. but I have had some time) and just did nothing but leave my erratic start on the table and did nothing useful to follow it up. So yeah, I have time now and plan on actively playing to my win-condition for as long as I'm alive (although seems might not be that much longer).

Coorvus (fallen_angel replacement): Comes in and largely just addresses empking, goes after him for the way he played after the mass claim suggestion (ie: how he reacted to my buddying).

[DavidParker]

Part2.

Huge sidetrack:

Instead of responding to all your questions which are all similar and just basically asking for reasons and my excuses for my vote-hopping/bad play etc, I'll just go through and explain my voting and bad play (which I semi-explained before why I started the game playing erratically)


Alright, initially I go into confirmation bias on empking thinking he is town. I legitimately felt strongly I was right in this belief or was happy to at least use it to reaction-fish and start scum-hunting and deal with it later if I got a scum read on him. I actually got into the game and was upset when both wagons were on myself and emp (1 town and 1 semi-obv town), and that's when I was telling people to look elsewhere and start scum-hunting where there's actually scum (ie: fallen_angel+HF was my read at this point due to their reactions, although looking back now, I dont think FA's reaction was that scummy).

I then get annoyed about all the talk of WIFOM this and WIFOM that, go a bit inactive at this point, then the no-lynch on day 1 happens. As explained, I wasn't aware of when the deadline was or I would have hammered (although I'm leaning towards coorv town at this point).. As i'm slowly getting more swamped with work and losing interest, I see a Rhinox-slip pointed out so just hop on his wagon rather than doing any scum-hunting of my own..

Then as day 2 progresses I do some quasi-scum-hunting (to be honest, I was lazy at this point and wasn't actually doing much real scum hunting or bothering to make cases, I felt I would just post some fluff, throw down a vote, and would do actual scum hunting later, and just hope my fluff-vote was right).. I then get lazier after Neko posts some huge walls at me and asks me all these annoying questions I didn't feel like answering since I was losing interest so just post more fluff and useless posts...Neko's post telling me to "gather" my thoughts, actually wins some town points.. I was happy with the singer lynch as I had a gut-scum read on her, although didn't feel super-strongly about a case on her, her play is actually kind of weird the few games i've had with her so I find it hard to analyze.

Now day 3, I first hop on the nocmen case, before hopping to the bigger corv wagon more out of convenience, and other people being quite sure of his scumminess. (ie: my laziness continued).

As for my voting: It was mostly reflective of my

meh

attitude.. I saw someone post something about a player i agreed was scummy, i'd switch my vote.. I saw something towny, i switched my vote, i felt like i had to post some fluff about someone to make it seem like i'm scum-hunting and involved, i'd vote accordingly.


So here are my actual reads at this point now that I've *finally* joined the game:

Empking - scum, massclaim was a non-tell, maybe a very slight town-tell here since he believed it would benefit town, but it's more a playstyle thing than something to give him town points. The scumminess comes later, he doesn't react to my buddying in fact is just happy that someone is so convinced he's town. Other people at least point how my reasoning is flawed.

I agree to the game dragging.

Vote: FA

- The only wagon with decent reasoning behind it.

followed by...

Yeah, I didn't see it. He's not worthy of a FOS. I'm not going to do his challenge though, as AD himself has stressed time and time again I'm the best player so I'll hunt in my own way.

Noc: The wagon on me I know to be false, the DP has poor reasoning behind it (no scum motivation).

Does not sit well with me.

Finally, there's today, Emp has been calling me town all game for my early game behaviour (which had no scum-motivation), but today, when there's 2 wagons, sure he's consistent in voting the Corv wagon, but he has stopped mentioning how he finds me town. Early game it suited him to call me town, now if he's scum (and me+corv are town which i suspect is true), by easing off calling me town, he's effectively setting up both our lynches for today and tomorrow. In fact, he's probably settling for my lynch today and has done nothing to state how he still finds me town or try stop my lynch if he thinks i'm town. This just doesn't sit right. If I was town and had a strong town read on someone at this point in the game, i would definitely be trying to defend them or at least trying to show people why your case (on corv) is stronger.

Haylen - neutral/scum. This scum read slightly bothers me because it's largely gut and there isn't much of a case there. This slot has been replaced 3 times, that doesn't sit well with me considering I found a few of the former players in this slot to lurk quite scummily, and anti-hero's buddying when he replaced in to someone who had been attackin the guy he replaced did not sit well with me. Don't have much on haylen, mr. wright had 2 posts (first of which i found scummy, second had some content and was a bit meh). So as said, it's largely gut, and it's probably more neutral than scum.

Rhinox - Scum-ish. Possible slip that was pointed out. Also some of his wording doesn't sit right,

Basically, it doesn't do me any good to have more than 4 scum suspects at a time in this game. There's probably no more than 3 scum in the game, so I already figure that (at least) 1 of my leaning scum reads is wrong. Don't be surprised if there are some changes between the "leaning" groups as I get more information throughout the game. It'll take a lot more to change the town and scum groups, though.

this early post of his just doesn't sound right at all. For one thing, it's like he was trying to force his list to have 3-4 scum reads, 2-3 town reads, and the rest neutral. Then points out how he plans to be consistent with reads and play like a townite should play. That just doesn't sit right with me at all. (oh and hey, he called emp town , defending his scum buddy obviously... /jokes about this somewhat)

Town: HF, neko, coorvus for varying reasons. Not in that order as well, but they are the main people who stand out as town at this point to me. Neko and FA both largely encouraged me to behave more pro-town and have tried to point the town in a direction towards a logical lynch. HF is largely because I think emp is scummy and don't see them being scum together, but he has definitely had some pro-town moments (ie: when he admitted to his prod-avoidance post, i found the subsequent post quite funny and definitely townish in content and tone)


That leaves nocmen and fenhl. Fenhl replaced into what was quite a scummy slot (Thanks to LRDwhyt) and nocmen has caught a bit of suspicion recently. I have no current thoughts on them and haven't done their iso's but my head is too zonked right now, but going by my old "lazy" way of posting my un-thought-out-thoughts, I'd say that LRD is probably town, and nocmen is kinda neutralish but leaning scum.




FINALLY, now, I'm in a pickle. We have 1 day until deadline, so it's highly unlikely a new wagon will be able to take off (ie: i'd like an emp wagon, and it seemed fenhl did too, although that was possible bussing since the wagon was not kicking off), so it seems either myself or Corv will be lynched. So moving my vote of Corv (even though I think he's town) doesn't seem like a good idea at this point sadly. Also, self-voting/taking the lynch doesn't seem like a good one either since there's definitely more chance of Corv scum than myself being scum. So, unless something drastic happens in the next 24 hours my vote is somewhat stuck.

@neko: it's probably better to have me at L-1 this close to deadline, you don't have to worry about me self-voting. As said, corv is more likely scum than I am so I'd rather have my vote on him than myself even if I think he's town.

Anyone up for a last minute switch to Emp ? :/

@mod

: I've noticed a minor mistake on the front page. It says alive 11/11 (should be 9/11)

[DavidParker]

Because me being at L-1 before and looking to go back there, clearly shows I'm not the lynch for today?

[DavidParker]

Who do you think is scum when/if corv flips town?

[DavidParker]

Unvote, Vote: Emp

Let's get this done quickly please, i'll be around to move my vote back to corv if needed.

[DavidParker]

By my count, corv and emp are both on L-2.

[DavidParker]

and roughly 5-6 hours until deadline.

[DavidParker]

Thanks !!!!

[DavidParker]

Because me being at L-1 before and looking to go back there, clearly shows I'm not the lynch for today?

Years of experience shows you're not the lynch for today. The undecided (Rhinox) would have to be an idiot to vote you over Corv considering he finds both of you equally scummy but Corv produces a greater quantity and superior quality of information.

So what do your "years of experience" and the fact you are the "best player" think of the fact you might be the lynch for today? Do you think the "undecided rhinox" would join in your lynch over Corv?

[DavidParker]

Ha, as soon as I read HF"s post, i knew you'd point that out Emp.

[DavidParker]

Emp, what makes you think a near-deadline quick lynch doesnt give us much information?? We can see how willing people are to get on the wagon. there's those who have found you consistently scummy (fehnl and HF) who will obviously jump on then there's the question of whether other people will think of it as a viable option opposed to the corv wagon. In fact, a last-minute quicklynch is something scum can't really manipulate in their favor, as opposed to the wagons on myself and Corv which they can have placed their votes on and maneurvered around so they seem townish. Last minute quick-lynch is something that scum can't easily react to.

[DavidParker]

I fell asleep, I was around and around then fell asleep.

I've actually been V/La for the past 4-5 days (since the morning of january 1st), and I feel I'll have to explain further my excuse: I Live in australia, hence the timezone and weird time to be sleeping. I was going camping down south in western australia for a music festival for 3 days so i was up most of the night before going and just fell asleep out of tiredness because it was like 4-5am when I last posted.

I actually checked to see who got lynched when I woke up and had a pretty big chuckle when I saw we had ANOTHER no lynch.

[DavidParker]

At this point Fenhl seems like caught-scum, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions yet. I'm slightly inclined to believe him less scummy because he was voting for scum-empking, but that doesn't really help him with his recent behaviour.

[DavidParker]

I don't like how quick Fenhl's wagon has taken off. It just goes completely against the way the last 3 days have went. Fenhl has acted scummily, especially yesterday, but so have the other people who had big wagons in the past few days (emp and corv and even nocmen). Now, fenhl's quick wagon here with people not voting for their earlier reads (emp was deadset on a corv lynch I seem to recall.... and neko seemed pretty set on my lynch or corv's). So a no-lynch and suddenly you want fenhl lynched rather than the person you were voting yesterday? That doesn't make sense.

I believe fenhl just made himself an easy target with his vote hopping (which was probably more attributed to lazy play), and we have scum (possibly 2) on his wagon at this point.

Or he is scum and just played really bad on day 3.

[DavidParker]

Vote: Empking

[DavidParker]

I agree with Fenhl going first in a mass claim.

At the moment I see a few possible combinations:

Corv+Fenhl+someone combo

Emp+others (ie: not those 2), so Haylen/Nocmen/Neko etc

[DavidParker]

prod avoidance post. just arrived in US (26 hours of flying woohoo) will catch up, at the moment laptop has 3 mins of battery left

[DavidParker]

I don't feel very confident in a Haylen lynch at this point.

Just from reaidng recent posts. Don't have time to catch up and comment on everything, but I have done a readthrough, I'm still confident in an Emp lynch and to see where that goes. I will be kicking myself if he's town and Corv is scum, but I feel that's not the case.

Holidays with friends+family is making my contributions not as useful as I'd like sorry

[DavidParker]

Okay, have some time away from family.

Seeing as we are in a "possible" mylo at the moment, the quick wagon on Fenhl was definitely scummy. Sure it's good for some pressure, but really it kicked off way to quick. Even at L-2, I can't believe everyone on the wagon was happy to keep their vote there with a wagon that had got to L-2 so quickly in possible mylo with 8 players.

I think emp is scummy, I don't think neko has been particularly scummy, but given an emp scum-flip he would definitely fall into somewhat more unfavorable position and would have to give his posts a once-over.

I'm saddened that Corv wasn't lynched earlier, ie day 1, but now that he's still alive, i'd rather keep him alive since I do have a town read on him. So my vote stays on Emp.

[DavidParker]

Why corv over fenhl all of a sudden? YOu seemed rather convinced that fenhl was scum...

[DavidParker]

With 8 alive, would a no lynch be a good idea?

As for mass claim, I suggest emp starts

And Corv already claimed VT? Or am I making that up.

[DavidParker]

No lynch THEN mass claim tomorrow seems like a good idea.

Vote: No lynch

[DavidParker]

unvote

Agree on mass claim if we are lynching today.

[DavidParker]

I'm a VT.

Who's left? Rhinox!

(Leaving neko last?)

[DavidParker]

I don't think the JK speculation will help tremendously.. Mostly because the player could have been either protected or stopped from killing. Even if we figured out who he targeted that doesn't get us all too far.

Vote: Emp

[DavidParker]

Yeah, i'm surprised by the lack of PR's.. Scum either claimed early in the mass claim, or maybe (and quite likely it seems) we are dealing with a 2 scum game. (it was an 11p game after all).

However, having JK as our only PR is quite something... It is WIFOM'y but a scum claiming late may have gone for a PR...

[DavidParker]

I was well aware of that thread Llama and had even used it in my judging of his actions... But even if he thought it was pro-town move to make (as I stated I believed he felt), I still imagine it is something he would likely do as scum as well as town. He wanted to discuss the mass-claim option he felt was a legitimate "plan", I mean if he posted that and hadn't suggested a mass claim here, he would have been labeled as scum...

And I agree, Haylen please post.

@Neko: Ugh, the people not voting for emp? There had been various people who had supported his lynch. I felt corv was town, so did some others, so I pushed for another wagon.

[DavidParker]

Recent thoughts: Nocmen seems like scum. He is just fence sitting saying he is "looking into people", but he hasn't even posted a real case on anyone of recent, and just seems to be coasting.

I can see Corv as a possible scum buddy or possibly Haylen/fenhl.

Emp no longer seems like obv-scum thanks to Llama's defense :/, although i'm glad someone defended him since he wasn't going to defend himself, although it's probably easier to hear when it's not coming from the person you think is scum.

Unvote

I'm going to reread more of Nocmen's "investigations" and game input, but right now I think a corv lynch may not be too bad (yeah major backpeddle :/)

[DavidParker]

So... You guys wanna do a quick Nocmen iso and see if you notice anything apart from anti-town coasting?

[DavidParker]

This is definitely MYLO now.

No lynch is the way to go probably.

I'd rather hold off posting my town reads as to not influence the night kill tonight.

[DavidParker]

Vote: no lynch

[DavidParker]

We need 4 don't we? for a majority. Maybe not for no lynch.

Regardless, just vote no lynch now. No need to discuss reads as it will just help scum further plan their night kill tonight.

[DavidParker]

Given we have yet to hit a scum, and are just as (or possibly more) like to be manipulated by scum into a mislynch at this point, I believe we should be sticking with the no lynch option.

Vote: No Lynch

[DavidParker]

Previewedit that isn't an edit: Agree with emp.

Force scum to make a night kill. Right now, I'm happy with a draw :/

[DavidParker]

I don't suppose anyone is up for discussing the inherent WIFOM in scum not night killing? As much as it intrigues me, it could just as easily be scum leading us into thinking they are caught and in a bad position. I have to agree, scum still have more to lose from a draw than town do.

[DavidParker]

Vote: NL

[DavidParker]

Oh wow. He was going to be who I voted for probably.


As it stands I don't see corv+emp being possible.

Leaves Llama and neko.

Neko has coasted quite a lot and just gone after me most of the game (sure it was a decent case, but it's not hard to find one on me)

Llama seems pro-town, but replaced into a scummy slot.

Corv is corv.

Emp well, I dunno.

[DavidParker]

Oh, at this point I think we should be lynching Corv. I'm going to ignore the majority of WIFOM presented, and the fact Corv is STILL alive, after this many no-lynches (partly due to my own fault), and the fact you just mentioned, him bringing up HUGE wifom IN LYLO is not looking good for him. You lynch the townliest looking player in LYLO?!??!?!? SINCE WHEN?? That's a recipe for disaster.

I'm fairly certain we will see a Corv lynch today and I think it is the right one to make, although I have thought him town in the past after my most recent re read. (I actually semi expected to be night killed, the fact I'm still alive makes me think Corv is keeping me alive since I found him town, but yeah more WIFOM i know).

At this point I'd say I'm 80% sure Corv is scum.

As for his scum buddy, I'd lean towards Emp, although I'd wait to see a Corv flip then properly evaluate their connections and see what I think of this, something I won't really plan on doing until I see a Corv flip.

I mean, looking at the game, and how Corv has survived L-1 so many times, not been hammered at deadlines, and just somehow keeps surviving, it seems implausible that he isn't scum.

[DavidParker]

I made a push for emp because upon re-reading i found him hella scummy?? WHy do you think.. I was in confirmation-town-bias for him for most of the game. I realized that was silly when I decided to put more effort into rereading/analyzing and then found him scummy.

Since then, people have defended him well, and i'm less sure of him being scum, but as it is lylo, theres obviously a 1/2 chance he is now scum.

Why does just neko have to comment on being alive? You want my honest opinion, I actually thought there was a good chance I was going to be the night kill last night. Theres plenty of reason to keep neko alive, just like there is to kill him. Maybe its just the paranoia in me, but i considered myself a likely target. The only person who I could not see being nightkilled was you (emp coming in second). Between the remaining 4 of us, I could have seen it go anyway. As said, nocmen was probably my strongest scum read at the end of yesterday so I'm kinda glad.

I've seen your response to the same old argument I'm bringing up again, and yeah, it's the only defense you can make as town or scum. But you can't dismiss the case on you as invalid or "faulty" because its not. The fact you are trying to dismiss the case on you rather than accepting its there and just scum hunting harder (what i'd imagine coming from town) makes me find you scummier.

[DavidParker]

Neko, I'm still confused on my position on Emp as well. I'm flipping back and forth. Corv I'm back leaning scum though.

[DavidParker]

What flavor kool-aid?

[DavidParker]

The VC seem to make neko look a good deal worse to me :/

[DavidParker]

The final reason I'm somewhat happy to resort back to Corv being scum because of his recent "buddying" not sitting that well with me :/

He seems to be trying to win me over to vote for Emp.

[DavidParker]

Neko-DP is impossible...

At this point at least one of Corv or Emp is scum. Both is a possibility but unlikely.

[DavidParker]

I'm thinking an emp vote is good.

vote: Empking

I lol'd.

[DavidParker]

I think you're overplaying how useful day-talk really is. I mean there's not a huge amount scum can do with it early on for strategizing.

And yeah agree with Emp. You both played really well. Especially llama who I had pinned as def-town. I think it often helps to read the game before replacing in so you can generate some "actual" reads, and your reads are affected by the role you receive (mostly if you receive a scum role), you can post your genuine scum/town reads. Kinda makes playing scum easier