Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Incognito]

Hi all. I'll have this all read up probably by the end of today. Then I'll post my thoughts. I think this might be the second time I'm replacing that pesky Confidanon.

[Incognito]

Hi fallen angel. Yeah, it has been awhile haha. I can't believe I've now reached the 3 year mark on this site. I'm gettin' old.

And I think this is the first time I'm playing in a game with you, Rhinox? Should be fun.

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OK, so I've given the game a good once-over already. I'd like to read through the game at least once more to do some targeted reads on certain people before I vote or give complete reasons why I think certain people are scum.

Before I do that though, I see I need to do a bit of housekeeping on the subject of mass-claiming of all things.

I do

NOT

support mass claiming Today.

I think that's an extremely bad idea, and I'm really surprised it's come from Empking of all people. Since this is a Mini Normal that's been reviewed by a team of 3 experienced mods, I'm going to assume that this game is balanced. As such, I think it can also be assumed that there likely isn't some kind of a major breaking strategy that mass-claiming would exploit. By mass-claiming, we'd only be helping the scum who is the informed minority for a reason. Towns usually need the added benefit or at least the PERCEIVED benefit of a few power roles to help sniff out the scum. And we have absolutely no clue what the scum even have in their arsenal either. So no. Just nonono.

Quick initial thoughts about the players: I thought DavidParker and AdumbroDeus seemed fairly town so far. With DavidParker, I liked the little bit of WIFOM that he used to come to the conclusion that Empking was town; his reasoning just struck me as something that's more likely coming from a town mindset rather than a scum one. I don't know if I necessarily agree with it, but I still thought the reasoning seemed fairly townish. With AdumbroDeus, I got the feeling from his posting that he genuinely believed in the argument he put forth against Empking, and I was actually surprised that he seemed to receive a good deal of backlash for it.

Early bad vibes coming from Nocmen, singersigner, and cruelty. I'd hazard a guess that at least one of them is scum - I feel like I need to do some rereads on each of them as well as the rest of you though to place everyone into the whole big picture. Will be doing so ASAP.

[Incognito]

I've done a brief reread, and I feel good enough about vibes to begin with this -

vote: Nocmen

I didn't like Nocmen's reasoning he used in post 75 to vote DavidParker - his reasoning just seemed forced to me especially since the things he called DavidParker out on in that post don't really make much sense as reasoning to vote for someone. I don't at all understand why DavidParker's calling Empking town looked scummy in the context he did it in - Nocmen, did you think DP's reasoning looked contrived or something? How in the world could calling someone town possibly equate into rolefishing from a hypo-DavidParker scum?

Nocmen's posts following that one also continue along the same path; post 134 is trying to promote "certainty" as a "scum-tell" when I can't at all see why the alternate possibility of "town just feeling certain about a particular read" can't be a just-as-likely scenario in that situation. Also, I really disliked Nocmen's 9th post where he's already beginning to use the "hey, if he's actually town, then he's anti-town and at least we'll rid ourselves of a useless player!" It just seems lazy to me. It looks especially bad when Nocmen's posts prior to that didn't really seem like they were trying to figure DP out.

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With respect to singersigner, I've just noticed that she seems to be posting a lot of words, but I have absolutely no clue who she suspects as scum right now. She's kept a (presumably) random vote on DavidParker since her very first post of the game, but some of her more recent posting seems to be walking a thin line - it seems like she's half-accusing him of being scum but then she's mentioned in one of her previous posts that her vote was still mostly random.

singersigner, who's scum?

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I'll have to finish out my thoughts later since I'm getting ready to head out. I'm more of an "in-the-moment" player anyway, so I'll be happy to just get engaged in the game from here instead of summarizing thoughts from the very beginning.

[Incognito]

My reasoning is that DP has said things that he beleives people are "certainly town" or scummy, and yet doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it. Early on, I think it's foolish to say that about anyone. Which that, with his lack of reasoning for some of his posts, makes me a bit too uneasy.

From what I've seen, I think he's only said this about Empking so far. And I thought he did provide a reasoning too - he said something to the effect of Empking's recklessness makes him think he's town, which is something that I and lots of other players sometimes consider to be a town-tell too. You're saying that it's foolish for him to say that, but I'm still not sure why you think he's more likely to be scum because of it.



Empking, what do you think of the reasons I've brought up against mass-claiming?

[Incognito]

I still disagree, but I'm getting the feeling that this mass-claim discussion thing is becoming more of a distraction than anything.

How many people actually agree to it? It seems like the majority don't or are unsure about it, so I think we should just play as normal.

[Incognito]

You're exactly replicating my thoughts on the matter... so why you not voting EMP?

Currently, I'm leaning towards thinking that Empking is more likely town than scum for suggesting that we mass claim. I think it would be too bold a move for a scum Empking to make. I did toss the idea around in my head for a bit that he may have been thinking he could pull a fast one on a bunch of less experienced players, but after further thought I began to disregard it. Plus his activity level in this game seems much better than the one Empking-scum game that I played with him in it.

On a side note, I think you're grossly overestimating Empking's playing abilities. In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in because they find him to be either unreadable or to be a huge detriment to the town. Don't let the Scummy that he ended up winning fool you into thinking that he's a God-like player.

[Incognito]

No? In the Scummies Invitational, didn't Kinetic and at least two other people push for your lynch just because you were you?

[Incognito]

Incognito: I don't remember, possibly. One game though, especially one with somebody who has a grudge against me isn't "practically every game".

I might have assumed incorrectly then.

So yet, while hes expressed strong opinions on people other than Emp without giving any reasons, it's bad for me to pressure him for those reasons? That's what I'm understanding from this.

It's not bad to pressure for reasons, no. I just didn't get the impression that that's what you were doing. You seemed to take a very strong stance of just wanting to lynch DP even if his play was just "anti-town" and not necessarily "scummy" extremely early in this game. I personally don't support policy lynches, but from what I've seen from the people who do, I normally see the kind of stance you took a lot closer to deadline after repeated attempts of trying to figure an "anti-town" player out. So when you just wanted to do it pretty much right off the bat, you can see why it might have raised my eyebrows.

Regardless, just proposing it significantly hampers town, it's a distraction and it makes it a lot more likely that PRs will drop tells. So why would town EMP would do it?

Because for some crazy reason, he genuinely believed that it might actually be beneficial for the town? I completely agree with you when you say it's been a huge distraction and that it could have potentially forced PRs into dropping tells, but I'm still failing to see why Empking-scum would do something that bold when he'd have had to have known it would be an unpopular position to take that could potentially make him see the noose in a hurry. And yes, I realize this is subject to WIFOM, but so is everything that leads us to believe one player or another is town.

As for your other question, yes, it was an invitational just for Scummies Winners so the playerlist was impressive.

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I haven't gotten a chance to look through Rhinox's case against fallen angel because I've been fairly busy studying for an exam, but I'll get around to it ASAP. I don't remember anything that really swayed me one way or another on him during my read though. Same could be said for Lrdwhyt for me too. That said, Rhinox, why are singersigner and cruelty leaning town for you currently?

[Incognito]

Sorry all. Just posting to let you all know I haven't forgotten about you. Will update this tomorrow. It's just been an insanely busy week at school and work.

[Incognito]

The last two pages have been a bit dense, so let me know if I missed anything.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Nope. Have you?

@Rhinox:

I think your method just seems weird to me so far. I mean, when I come into a game, I'll pretty much only stick my neck out and call people "town" if there are things in their play that genuinely gave me a townish vibe. It could be gut or something else they've said or done or whatever, but I usually have something that I could point to that says, yeah, this guy is probably town. You seem to pick people who you think are scum and then insert the rest of your reads as prob-town unless you got a really strong vibe that you thought they were town in which case they're strong town? I've just never heard of that - people who I have no read on usually go in the neutral category for me. Is this really typical of you?

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I didn't really get much out of the havingfitz <-> Rhinox back and forth.

singersigner and cruelty continue to give me bad vibes though - I didn't like anything about singersigner's post 207; it's just strange to me that she's been gone for so long and then when she comes back, she "coincidentally" lists the three people who have the largest wagon-backing as her scummiest picks. In post 218 she rescinds her statement and doesn't remember why she listed her scum reads like that while instead going ahead and voting fallen angel? singersigner, care to explain? It's also weird to me that I wasn't mentioned in her 218 at all.

cruelty's check-in post didn't really offer much either, especially considering the fact that deadline is approaching rather quickly. Not happy about that obv.

[Incognito]

Speaking of that, I had no clue deadline was this Tuesday until I noticed the mod's last post. I think we need to converge on a lynch fast so that we have a chance to get a claim. Of the leading wagons, I don't support the Empking one nor the DavidParker one as I still think both of them are prob-town. I could probably get behind the fallen angel wagon since I don't have much of a read of him, but I'm a bit wary of the fact that singersigner is backing that wagon. And I'd obviously still very much support a Nocmen lynch.

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

I think his FoS of you has pretty dumb reasoning behind it, and I don't agree with his suspicion towards Lrdwhyt either.

Empking, did you not notice Adumbro's EBWOP? Is he still worthy of an FoS?

[Incognito]

Regarding the Rhinox - me exchange...what are your thoughts on Rhinox's strawman of my suspicions towards Emp and his continued distortion of my position on Emp?

From what I gathered from it, it seemed like you were and have been calling Empking's mass claim proposal "scummy", and I thought that you contorted what it was that Rhinox was saying a bit as a result. I mean, Rhinox's position seems to be as follows:

"scum don't typically like the limelight -- pushing for a mass claim on page 1 gives a person instant attention that scum normally wouldn't want -- thus Empking is more likely to be town than scum for pushing something that made him the center of attention."

You turned Rhinox's thoughts into "Empking did something too scummy to be scum therefore he's town," which just isn't the same thing at all. So I personally wasn't sure if you just didn't see the difference between the two statements or if it was something else.

The rest of the exchange seems to go on about how you basically contradicted yourself for making a comment that implies that if you're town, you're vanilla when you shouldn't have implied that since you seemed to be so against mass claim in the first place. I do agree that it is a bit of a contradiction on your part, but I don't find you scummy for it at this time.

Someone get jealous?
No but really, I'm not sure why that's weird...I didn't address everyone...did I?

Not jealous, no. I just found it weird since portions of my summary post did include how I found you suspicious. If you were town, I'd think you'd want to question me about that rather than completely ignore it.

[Incognito]

Mod:

Has fallen angel been prodded? It's been awhile since he's posted here and deadline is fast approaching.

[Incognito]

No real time to respond to everything, but I had no clue this game had a no lynch at no majority rule. Rule 5 is confusing. Anywho, fallen angel seems like he has the best shot of getting lynched and a no lynch is just flat-out awful so let's switch to that:

unvote, vote: fallen angel

Got class now, but I'll be back in about 2 hours to see what the deadline situation is. Hopefully FA pops up in time to claim.

[Incognito]

Oh, this is actually really easy.

vote: Corvuus

I'm surprised people are attacking Rhinox's logic when I pretty much thought the same thing just now. If Corvuus is town, then I can't see any reason why he wasn't just lynched Yesterday unless all of the scum were on his wagon already (doubted, since assuming three scum, that would mean the scum is all within {Rhinox, signersigner, Empking, and Adumbro) or one or two of the scum were just chilling or inactive or something along those lines around deadline. I guess I could potentially see a Rhinox/singersigner possibility if the first scenario is what's going on here, but I really don't think those two are scum together - they've almost been too blatant with each other. And I still think Emp/Adumbro are likely town.

If Corvuus is scum though, it makes perfect sense - the scum basically spared their buddy from the noose.

I agree that singersigner is scummy but Corvuus should almost certainly be the play Today.

This looks more promising than the FA wagon.

Why?

[Incognito]

Also, I should note that I'll be V/LA tomorrow and Monday.

[Incognito]

Hi all. Just wanted to apologize to the players and especially the mod for leaving the game the way I did. A lot of stuff just came up all at once for me, and I knew I wouldn't be able to put all I could into this game or anywhere else on MS, so I thought it best to request replacement.

Congrats to neko and LF.

And I hope you all continue to enjoy playing Mafia!