Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Nocmen]

/cofnirm

[Nocmen]

Vote: xenophon

for being hte one who hasn't confirmed yet. Because obviously the last person to post is scum.

[Nocmen]

I'm not too sold with the mass claim, and I'm still confused as to why exactly you choose me first for the claim, but I'll gladly do it if I know that people are up for it.

[Nocmen]

I don't think I'm a good player at all. I think a lot of my early wins were a lot of lucky night actions, and in other ones I just plainly sucked.
Also

Unvote

because we are through with RVS as mentioned.

[Nocmen]

I understand the benefits of a mass claim, but not in D1 when there is no other information to back them up or prove someone wrong.
And one of the reasons I'm playing this game is that I haven't touched mafia for a good 18 months or so, so I feel like a lot of the setups and balance I need a bit of a refresher with. I may be able to see how balanced a setup is later, but I can't guarantee anything

[Nocmen]

1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

1. I check this pretty much 3-4 times daily, and post when there's something worth commenting on. Its when I wake up, when I get home from class/work, and about an hour or two before I go to sleep. So it's spread out over the day.
2. Eastern US
3. If I think they are innocent, I would rarely if ever vote for them. If someone has evidence to go on to suggest their guilt, then I would vote for them if I trust it. But at that point, I guess I don't think they are innocent anymore.
4. What do you mean by generation? If you mean real life, I'm just another college kid. If you mean ms generations....I have no clue if they even exist.
5. K.

Also, hf, at my possible contradictory statements - I was referring to not being sold with the claim on D1, but stating in later days with more evidence, I will be okay with a mass claim

[Nocmen]

I still ask of Emp to show an example where D1 mass claim is beneficial to the town.

Also, not liking DavidParker's sudden thoughts that Emp is so town, we need to go with him, etc. It seems to me like either buddying, or if Emp is town, promoting it to role fish.

Vote: DavidParker

[Nocmen]

I think the main concern I have with Emp's idea is what was previously mentioned - I don't think someone like him would propose it like the way he did. I also don't think we should take that as any kind of tell towards Emp, because anything aobut him making it so obvious that hes town/scum because of that idea can be taken down to WIFOM.

@cruelty - why do you think davidparker is "incompetant"?

[Nocmen]

If your policy is to lynch anyone who mentions a Jester, especially in a Mini Normal, where I don't see a place for them to ever be, that just seems like you're making up excuses to place votes on people. I feel more certain about my vote on you now.

[Nocmen]

So we can assume that in future games emp, you will constantly propose MC in mini normals?

And Adumbro and fallen angel, do you think disclaiming someone's experience and being called weaker has anything to do with them being scum?

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

[Nocmen]

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

Yes. In looking through, I see parts where he all but forgot his role, and play that seems detrimental to whatever side hes on. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in Newbie 1012, where the person he replaced for pretty much dug him a grave, but he made no attempts at getting out of it. Either he's scum and we get rid of that, or we get rid of someone who is harming the town. I feel both are very acceptable for a D1 lynch target.

[Nocmen]

HF is my main suspect because his reaction to my MC idea didn't seem like honest reaction "town PRs will claim VT"

My reaction was honest and based on the fact it was a stupid idea....which was shared by several others in this game. And when you use quotation marks you should actually be quoting something the person you are quoting said. I never said "town PRs will claim VT" nor anything close to it. Another misrep on your part. A lie. You have been a lot less active since your intial MC bravado. Are you floundering a bit? You are acting scummy. Still happy with my vote.

And for those voting DP or not at all....voting scummy play (Emp) is always better than voting bad play (a growing sentiment towards DP).

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

@DP: If we are all voting you for not justifying your reads, please do. I think pressure would hold you to that more than any number of pages.

[Nocmen]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

As mentioned before, Emp's suggestion of a MC seems to be much more beneficial to scum than town. So it's a huge scum tell, but a person such as Emp would know of that, and wouldn't make it as scum. Whether it's beneficial for the town is another question though.

[Nocmen]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

As mentioned before, Emp's suggestion of a MC seems to be much more beneficial to scum than town. So it's a huge scum tell, but a person such as Emp would know of that, and wouldn't make it as scum. Whether it's beneficial for the town is another question though.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.


WIFORM is basically multiple equally likely results, an example is:

I have two glasses of wine in front of me, one is poisoned, which one is it?



However, there's a very clear motive for scum here (MC is good as for scum, as is the PR tells they can generate by analyzing the claiming discussion), how does town benefit? Best case is town doesn't massclaim and knows enough to not drop PR tells in discussion, but we have less daylight and town is ended up focused on a townie.


Where's the town benefit? If you can find me an equally strong town benefit it's WIFORM, otherwise it's a scumslip and you're misusing the term.

I'm well aware of what WIFOM is, and yes I believe we can't interpret Emp's want for a MC as a scumtell because of it.

[Nocmen]

I did...more or less...

I don't like the fact that there were only 6 posts for all of Thursday, and I had two of them. Have we not gotten anywhere with this whole WIFOM argument thing? I'm honestly starting to believe Nocman's scum simply because he allowed the town to get so distracted from scum-hunting because of it. He refused to even accept that the rest of us had come to a consensus that we had one definition for the argument, and he had another. The only reason I can see for him being so stubborn about him protecting Empking with such a shotty reason, is if they were scum buddies.

OR he's scum trying to gain town cred from "such an experienced player" by defending him.

OR he's town that's really gotten a skewed perception of his alignment, defending someone who's gunna get away with a ridiculously scummy action.

How have I let the town get too distracted? I think you may be confusing me with AD, I seemed to go with the consensus and general definition of the WIFOM term.

And DP, I'd like to see more of your reasoning behind why you say that certain people are town and/or scum.

Also, V/LA for Saturday/Sunday, just because I'll be traveling and may not have wifi saturday night where I'm staying

[Nocmen]

I've done a brief reread, and I feel good enough about vibes to begin with this -

vote: Nocmen

I didn't like Nocmen's reasoning he used in post 75 to vote DavidParker - his reasoning just seemed forced to me especially since the things he called DavidParker out on in that post don't really make much sense as reasoning to vote for someone. I don't at all understand why DavidParker's calling Empking town looked scummy in the context he did it in - Nocmen, did you think DP's reasoning looked contrived or something? How in the world could calling someone town possibly equate into rolefishing from a hypo-DavidParker scum?

Nocmen's posts following that one also continue along the same path; post 134 is trying to promote "certainty" as a "scum-tell" when I can't at all see why the alternate possibility of "town just feeling certain about a particular read" can't be a just-as-likely scenario in that situation. Also, I really disliked Nocmen's 9th post where he's already beginning to use the "hey, if he's actually town, then he's anti-town and at least we'll rid ourselves of a useless player!" It just seems lazy to me. It looks especially bad when Nocmen's posts prior to that didn't really seem like they were trying to figure DP out.

-~-~-~-~-~

With respect to singersigner, I've just noticed that she seems to be posting a lot of words, but I have absolutely no clue who she suspects as scum right now. She's kept a (presumably) random vote on DavidParker since her very first post of the game, but some of her more recent posting seems to be walking a thin line - it seems like she's half-accusing him of being scum but then she's mentioned in one of her previous posts that her vote was still mostly random.

singersigner, who's scum?

-~-~-~-~-~

I'll have to finish out my thoughts later since I'm getting ready to head out. I'm more of an "in-the-moment" player anyway, so I'll be happy to just get engaged in the game from here instead of summarizing thoughts from the very beginning.

My reasoning is that DP has said things that he beleives people are "certainly town" or scummy, and yet doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it. Early on, I think it's foolish to say that about anyone. Which that, with his lack of reasoning for some of his posts, makes me a bit too uneasy. I can go more into this if yo uwant, but this is the only time I really have net this weekend so I'm trying to at least keep up with the games I can right now

[Nocmen]

My reasoning is that DP has said things that he beleives people are "certainly town" or scummy, and yet doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it. Early on, I think it's foolish to say that about anyone. Which that, with his lack of reasoning for some of his posts, makes me a bit too uneasy.

From what I've seen, I think he's only said this about Empking so far. And I thought he did provide a reasoning too - he said something to the effect of Empking's recklessness makes him think he's town, which is something that I and lots of other players sometimes consider to be a town-tell too. You're saying that it's foolish for him to say that, but I'm still not sure why you think he's more likely to be scum because of it.



Empking, what do you think of the reasons I've brought up against mass-claiming?

So yet, while hes expressed strong opinions on people other than Emp without giving any reasons, it's bad for me to pressure him for those reasons? That's what I'm understanding from this.

Also, I agree that we should stop discussing the mass-claim. Emp proposed it, we shot it down, so lets just move on and continue the day, because no one is going to go through with it. I could give my own main disadvantage of it that I'm thinking of, but I want to hear what Lrdwhyt says first, as the question is for him, and I want to hear his honest answer without giving more words to work with.

[Nocmen]

Checking in. Sorry about the stint of MIA. The weekend was much more engaging than I thought it would be.

In any case, I will UNVOTE: DavidParker, as I no longer really see him as scum. He's playing a much better game than I've ever seen him play on this site, and however ironic that might be against his meta as town, I don't think playing better is a scum tell, haha.

Right now, my top scum reads are Adumbro, Nocman, and Empking, in that order. I will come back with more details on those reads later.

I look forward to seeing these details.

Especially on Adumbro, because you have him as top scum, and yet Rhinox has him as town.
@Rhinox, can I have more details about why you think Adumbro is town? Espeicaly if you think it'll take a lot to change his opinion to you.

[Nocmen]

So Singer is nocman's scum buddy?

And tell me why you're thinking that?

[Nocmen]

Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.

Nearly everyone one of your posts is about emp. Nearly all of your responses to others are regarding emp. Your in crazy paranoia land that "just because emp has a scummy he's going to manipulate us all and we're not even going to realize" - which is BS by the way. Your superbold screaming at us.

All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

So I'm up to your post 31 in iso and pretty much all you said is in regards to mass claim.

I think I've said enough on the topic of confirmation bias...

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.

pro-tip: this was the point where you were supposed to say "hey rhinox, didn't you call DGB town in /invitational 11 for doing something questionable D0 to garner a lot of suspicion and become the center of attention and she was actually scum". Let me answer this by referring to a different quote of yours.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.

I think you've got it backwards. Town doesn't care if they look scummy because they're not (supposed to be) concerned with survival, they're concerned with catching scum. (that doesn't mean townies should throw all caution to the wind, but there is an entire thread in the MD about this...) Scum on the other hand, want to blend in, look town, and survive.

While there are some players who will do things to stand out as scum, in general, it's avoided. Look at plum's play in /invitiational 11 - and she's the one who should get a scummy for that game, not DGB, who got lynched.

So its just not good play for scum to intentionally put themselves in the center of attention and under heavy suspicion.

Leaving this here to ensure that I see it when I go through later on in the game - Very noteworthy, I didn't notice Adumbro's focus with Emp in his posts.

Catching up a bit. If I miss something directed at me let me know and I will try to address it.

@Rhinox...we’ll just have to disagree on how we view your town read of Empking. I still see your read as - he must be town because scum would not do something that scummy (push for a MC). I call it scummy...you call it making one’s self the center of attention. I agree he made himself the center of attention (because IMO he proposed a scummy plan). Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town? And as it stands...the bulk of my suspicions towards Empking are not the MC push itself.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Yes, I think adumbro is genuinely town. He genuinely thinks empking is scum.

Are you not of the opinion that I genuinely think Empking is scum? Because I do. I need to do a bit of reading/ISOs though as my suspect list is rather small at the moment (1).

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim. And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

Answer to your question: I do remember it being suggested early once, but I don't remember which game, nor do I remember if it was T/S who proposed it/.
And your sole suspect list is Emp, correct me if I'm wrong here. You don't suspect anyone else?

Also, to the people debating the MC replys, you do realize Emp proposed the MC to see who would be up for it, its not like we actually started the mass claim. I presume that if we did, then it would be suspicious for someone to skip out on it.

[Nocmen]

[]b]FoS: AD[/b] There were no questions so yuou were just trying to mislead the town.

Which is why I EBWOP'd to say that it was a challenge, not questions...


Now please meet my challenge and ask people 3 questions useful questions unrelated to massclaiming. kthanxbie

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

I think the ignoring of the EBWOP was definitely interesting, more so than the "catching Lrd in a lie".

I'm curious as to why Emp thinks FA is the only wagon worth going after.

[Nocmen]

DP: If you think the FA wagon is the only one that is worth going after....why are you not voting for him?

[Nocmen]

Also, I have my last final tomorrow afternoon. Following that, tomorrow night I will get a thorough reread together to get all of my thoughts certain and organized for the deadline.

[Nocmen]

Okay, so I'm going through the whole thread again, commenting on each person in chronological order as they are impacted and I feel are notable posts, and then a summary of each afterwards. Trying to ignore most of the talk about the Mass Claim, as that is practically everyone vs Empking

fallen angel

-won't lynch people because of bad play until it starts hurting the town.
-seems a bit insulted that he wasn't mentioned as an "experienced player"

Conclusion:
Hasn't actually posted anything besides his reasons why he thinks DP is scum in regards to opinions on players. Unsure of where to place him, I'm not really seeing much reason on the wagon on him, though it is interesting how much DP and Emp are thinking the same thing. Neutral for now, but I definitely need to hear more from him.

incognito

-Replaces in for confid
-Agrees with using WIFOM to think Emp is town
-Has bad vibes from me, singer, and cruelty at the start.
-Doesn't like my attack on DP
-Thinks singer posts but doesn't give much content.
-Thinks DP is townlike even though he didn't give too many reasons for his claims.

Conclusion: I feel he is leaning more towards town, but I also can see how his experience can make it helpful to pretend otherwise. Neutral for now.

Adumbro

-Scared of game balance for 11 man game
-Doesn't want Emp in LYLO (Why though?)
-Thinks that if we were stronger players, we would quickly lynch Emp for the MC idea
-Thinks experience levels are a distraction
-Says we should ignore WIFOM because we have a different understanding of the term.

Conclusion: Seems to have a small bit of arrogance, but at the same time says terms contradicting himself as such. Leaning scum

Empking

-Suggests MC (We should all pretty much remember this :p)
-Votes Lrd for voting home
-Thinks FA is the only decent wagon.

Conclusion: Neutral, because the only read I have on him is the MC idea which I feel is WIFOM and can't be taken for granted.

Rhinox

-replaces in for xenon
-Votes FA because of contradiction
-Thinks AD is town

Conclusion: While not fully clear at times (reminding me of my play), seems to be leaning town.

DavidParker

-Says Emp is prolly town first post, and he will call people town for no reason
-Votes Adumbro for no reason (Maybe for the not wanting Emp in lylo?)
-Thinks Emp has other motives for D1 Claim
-Votes FA for having jester speculation? Note at this time of the vote, the people voting for him are FA, singer, and myself.
-Post 125: Says HF and FA are a combo to go with, saying we need to look at people on his and Emps wagons
-Thinks HF is town.
-Votes AD for "setting up two mislynches"
-Thinks singer is my scum buddy. Note at this point he does consider us both scummy, but has a vote on AD.

Conclusion: I have no F'ing clue. He has barely given any reasons for his claims, and gives a few votes, while saying otherwise. I'm currently voting for him, due to this as well as my personal opinion as players who could hurt the game. I have a hunch though with something I've noticed, and for now, I'll

Unvote

cruelty

-Votes Emp because he thinks the MC is a "massive stumbling block"

Conclusion: Neutral as can be.

singersinger

-Has a policy lynch on DP (which he clarifies is a random vote)
-Dissappears for a while
-Think I may be scum because I "let us get distracted from the WIFOM argument"
-Confused me with AD.
-Unvotes DP because he says DP is playing a good game.
-Votes FA because rhinox says so
-Thinks AD is town because he thought he was buddying with Emp and now is voting for Emp?
-Keeps saying that DP would for sure false claim in a MC

Conclusion: Seems a bit convoluted and hard to follow at times, also seems very very afraid of DP. Leaning Scum

LrdWhyt

-Calls out whether Emp's idea of hte MC can be considered WIFOM or not
-Votes Emp because emp still didn't give a good reason for the MC

Conclusion: Leaning scum

havingfitz

-Mentions in a MC the scummier players go first, not the people who Emp thinks would be best at lying.
-Votes for emp, has it more as out of the ordinary is vote worthy than consistent poor play.
-Thinks Rhinox is inconsistent is his analysis.
-Calls Rhinox out for a strawman.

Conclusion: Leaning Town

Overall, I don't see the argument against FA besides him currenly not having posted for a bit, and DP I'm willing to give a night to explain himself a bit more.

Of the people who are leaning scum, I feel that VOTE: singer is the best target for today.

[Nocmen]

Nocman, tell me, did you feel like you could get another wagon on me in less than a day? I ask because I'm not your only "leaning scum" read, but I'm probably the least likely to create a new wagon. We only have about 2 hours left...and I really don't want this to end in a no-lynch for the day.

Let's look at the wagon's we have so far:

FA, Emp, and DP.

FA I don't see the case on. Emp's only scummy thing was the proposal of the MC which due to WIFOM I'm not sure how to interpret it yet. DP I had a vote on for bad play over actual scumminess.

I'm not voting for the FA wagon, because I don't see how his actions are that scummy.

I understand it's a bit hard to get this wagon done in a day, but I'm going to vote for who I think is the most scummy

[Nocmen]

At the same time it says a no lynch will and wont occur in the rule.

[Nocmen]

May as well start where I left off:

VOTE: Singer

[Nocmen]

I'm here, as noted in sig, VLA for the weekend, I'll try to get through what I missed later tonight

[Nocmen]

I agree fully with corvuus's first post. However, his permutation post really bugs me. How is Emp and DP both town work out with them? You explain two, and both scum seems fairly obvious, but both town you make no explanation or attempt to explain that, and by sheer probability, you need to assume that as the most likely case. It's weird though given his conclusion, that if Emp was town, why would he worry about DP buddying him?

Actually, did Emp ever have an issue with DP buddying him and thinking that Emp is town?

[Nocmen]

Corvuus: Your case against Emp is that he must be scum because he didn't directly respond to DP "buddying" him? Is that it?

[Nocmen]

I also still don't see why you believe DP Town, Emp scum is the most likely. Unless you're trying to protect your buddy DP. Which makes sense along with:

I agree that there is likely scum off his wagon. (Hence my post upon start of day,

I am at fault for not hammering at the end of day 1

)

However, there had been no talk of the upcoming deadline and no one had even mentioned when it was (as far as I can remember, please correct me if wrong) and there was no urgency to get a lynch happening on that specific day. That is why I had no idea I needed to switch my vote.

That, and I still don't know why DP says the wagon on FA is so scummy, to me it seems like he would be trying to earn town cred by hammering the scum.

I'm keeping my vote on singer until he gives something of worth today, and if that pleases me slightly, I'll be moving it to Corvuus.

[Nocmen]

DP: I still want to hear your reasons why you think what you posted.
Singer's still not posted. A bit ironic because I haven't posted much either, but it's been a long time since he's said something worthwhile. Can we just lynch him now?

[Nocmen]

singer and DP

[Nocmen]

singer and DP

Correction: Corv instead of DP. I was just doing a quick check because of the holiday and didn't think of corv.

[Nocmen]

Singer, my case on you is that you aren't contributing much, aren't giving reasoning for any of your reads, and your vote on FA. As you mention, why don't we think of rhinox's vote as scummy for the same reason? Because yours is just that much more opportunistic. And you've flipped from DP scum to town to scum, with minor comments why (only real one i've seen is that his play is different, so it's meta reasons)

[Nocmen]

Corv, I suspect you due to the fact that your case on Emp I dont agree with, as well as the fact that your posts regarding Emp/DPs interactions feel forced and you're using that as a basis of your case. I didn't like your posts 3-5 of your ISO, and still dont.

[Nocmen]

Why am I scum anti?

[Nocmen]

I'm going to ask that at least no one hammers until deadline. I don't feel as though my death is eminent just yet, but in case I'm wrong, not allowing me to posts final thoughts at this point would just be foul play. Unless you just wanted time to run out and trust that I'll post my thoughts accordingly. Apparently that works, too, haha.

Well I haven't seen you post many thoughts at all, so know, we can't trust you to that.

[Nocmen]

Alright. I did a really hasty overview of D1, but I don't tend to scour days with no flipped scum (or in this game, no flipped anybody)when I replace in. I may be repeating points made in this thread, but just giving my thoughts as I go along.

My thoughts based on the EOD yesterday are that fallenangel, nocmen, and havingfitz are scum suspects. The latter 2 were both around during deadline posting yet didn't hammer. The fact that nobody hammered fallen angel at all is telling to me. Again I just skimmed but unless the empking case gathered more steam than just "HE WANTED A MASSCLAIM AUTOSCUM" then I say fitz looks the worst out of this. Empking's case is a classic opportunity for scum to jump on and mislynch. Nocmen's change of vote to a wagon that obviously wasn't going to gather steam 20 hours before deadline is also telling.

Scum are certainly willing to hammer in a situation where they have a great excuse. They had the opportunity here. If fallen angel was town, scum should have no problem hammering and saying, oh well we needed a lynch. Major scum points to fallen angel. Actually there could be a relationship here, if fallen angel flips town, this probably gives town points to fitz and nocmen.

There really is no case on emp. The fact that Corv keeps pushing it looks scummier and scummier.

We basically are repeating D1 given no kills occurred. I do not think we should lynch lurkers D1, and I don't think we should lynch lurkers in this situation either (mainly directed at cruelty, lrd)

I'm not a huge fan of the list your top 2 scum suspects, not this early in the day. This gives scum an easy idea of who the town generally is not suspicious of. Given that scum most likely failed in their attempt to kill last night, I don't like this coming from fitz.

Singer's vote on Emp is pretty bad, and it's even worse that he unvotes and panders to Antihero's analysis. Looks like he wants to avoid any conflict and just backs down from the vote to avoid that.

With the combination of scumminess and information we will gain about his flip, my vote goes on corvuus

Vote: Corvuus

So, I'm suspicious, but only if Corv/FA is scum?

Additionally, you mention that fitz is the most suspicious for the attack on emp, and then you call corv scummier and scummier for pushing it, inlcuding the vote for him. Why?

[Nocmen]

Rhinox - Thanks for pointing out the hypocricy in FA's series of posts. I didn't notice that in any of my reads so far.

Corv - how is the fact that you weren't lynched not an actual case? You don't believe that theres no case because people didn't decide to lynch you at deadline? Yet a lot of your case is based off of how others would act to the same deadline. Though you are starting to make me wish that I voted for FA now, giving us this lynch without wasting a day, but hey, its not like anyone has been killed yet. You're just now deflecting things and using the fact that you weren't lynched yesterday as an excuse for posts that were scummy?
The post you make with DP and FA not voting Emp isn't much more than WIFOM though either.

[Nocmen]

Unvote, Vote: Corvuus

[Nocmen]

Corvuus: No I think you are flailing too, your series of recent posts seem contradictory and nonsensical.

Rhinox: How is my vote opportunistic? I'm fine with this wagon now, any doubts I've had about FA have been canceled out by Corvuus's posts. Additionally, I wasn't sure if I'd be here much this weekend, and it looked like singer wagon wasn't going to happen, so I had to go with my number two read, who was actually contending for first.

To everyone: Hold the hammer off until singer gets his reads posted because he keeps saying he will and he hasn't posted it, but only if you know you'll be able to come back closer to deadline. I don't want him getting off again today actively lurking, but a no lynch is just as bad.

[Nocmen]

Singer: Why a self hammer as opposed to yourself hammering?

[Nocmen]

Screw it, this works too.

Unvote, Vote: singer

[Nocmen]

Wait, I'm scum because I've gone against the people who aren't contributing and are the most likely to hurt the town? Look at singers posts, it was active lurking at it's finest.
And look at where we were at at the end of the day, I needed to ensure that we didn't have another no lynch. Am I really supposed to trust that people would hammer if needed to when they didnt Day 1?

Moving on now, to the next scum:

Vote: Corvuus

[Nocmen]

So another quick wagon forming up.

Neko: Something I need to look into is DP's interaction with singer. I've been suspicious of him a lot before, but I feel like DP is less likely to be scum now that singer isn't scum. That's what confuses me so far, DP's actions seemed quite like one I'd see from a scum pair, but his actions make that much less sense if singer was town. With the vote switching between singer and corv at the end of the day, I think that it's possible for a Corv/DP pairing, but I need to look more into that.

[Nocmen]

Theres a difference when you look at Corv's posts in Day 2. Rhinox, your exchange of posts with Corv and his reactions are one of hte main reasons why I felt that corvuus was scum. This outweighed most if not all of FA's case, which I never felt was scummy, and I still don't, besides him going AWOL. Much like Emp said, where he'd like either Corv or Me lynched, I felt the same between singer and corv.

[Nocmen]

If I wasn't your preferred choice Emp, then why vote for me?
Corv, as I said before, I think that DP is less likely to be scum now that singer was not scum. I'm extremely convinced either DP or Corv is scum, but I don't know which exactly yet. If Corv is lynched and comes up town, I feel less convinced of DP as scum. Which is why I prefer a corv lynch today. And as Corv said, would a DP lynch give info on his alignment? No, but I think that the opposite is true, mainly because I don't think DP scum would make the votes he did between two townies. If one was a scum buddy...well that's very different, but that case depends on Corv's alignment.

[Nocmen]

DP, there is a difference between vote hoping with out posting your reasons, and vote hopping to a point where its detrimental to the town. I felt that you did that in Day 1, with your "forgetting to hammer" or whatever it is now with the deadline.

I'm still not fully convinced if you're scum yet though, as I said before.

[Nocmen]

You called her scum/VI without giving any reasons, and later kept that stance.

The scummy part is the "without giving any reasons" part.

Why emp and not someone else, like DP?

[Nocmen]

It's not looking like Haylen or Fenhl will be completely caught up before deadline. Considering the pace of things at the moment, I'm not sure that 5 days will be enough to swing a different wagon. I'm not convinced that either emp or noc is a better lynch than DP or Corv today.

Fenhl, I'd also like to know what you're referencing in terms of vote-hopping. I find it strange that emp is the one that jumps out at you in regards to singer, when there was a good amount of vote-hopping coming from DP and Noc, and yet you haven't said a word on them, or anyone else, as Rhinox mentioned.

Haylen, I found it somewhat odd that you started with Corv and myself to do reads, though I thought since you would probably get through everyone, it wasn't a big deal. Now, with five days left and six more people to get reads on, I'm again wondering why you chose not to include DP in your initial read, considering Corv and DP are the leading wagons. What was your thought process, and what can we expect from you between now and deadline?

Noc, earlier you said you were going to look at the interaction between singer and DP. Have you found anything?

With DP and Singer, I think the issue is again that singer isn't scum. Just like corv, I feel that singer's voting pattern could have been just following trends with DP, whether singer thought he was town or scum. But without singer as scum, it doesn't make too much sense. Which is one of the reasons why I'm okay with letting DP live another night, is because singer's actions are either damning or framing if he's scum, but he's not so it just doens't add up for me

[Nocmen]

Corv: The issue I have though, is how does DP scum make sense with the voting he did if both you and singer end up as town? It just doesn't to me.

Additionally, I would hammer if I could emp, but I can't vote twice.

[Nocmen]

Fenhl....you follow DP's vote on emp after your suspicion on him?

I'm not comfortable with an Emp lynch. Corv is where it should be today.

[Nocmen]

I don't even know what to think about this anymore.

1. How the hell is Corv still alive.
2. DP/Fenhl...why the hell do you think Emp lynch would be more beneifical to town than corv?

Fenhl...you say Emp is scum in the beginning, then you go after DP...and when DP votes for Emp, you immediately switch with him?

Vote: Fenhl

, because his reluctance to hammer Corv is starting to make me second guess Corv.

[Nocmen]

Corv: How exactly are you siding with DP? I see nothing referring to that that actually relates to DP's recent posts, except for the vote on Emp.
Also, I find it a bit too convenient that you're willing to trust Fenhl when he was the one that saved your ass yesterday.

DP: You say in 673 that Fenhl is scum, and yet you seem willing to write off his mistake and say its just a mistake in 676. I really don't like that.

[Nocmen]

Corv: Obviously No Lynch is a horrible play. It's a horrible anti town play yesterday too and Fenhl's vote helped cause that.

I'm still in either way with Emp. I'm not sure whether the people that want to get rid of him are scum trying to get an opportune lynch on him, or bussing an easy partner. That uncertainty is why I've shyed away from voting him. I especially don't want to lynch him in Mylo, if we are there today.

My main suspects are Fenhl, Corv, and DP, in that order. However, going by priorities of who is most likely to be scum as well as produce the most assistance if this is not mylo,

Unvote, Vote: Corvuus

[Nocmen]

No need to worry about me voting for no lynch corv, why would I be for it now when I was so against it the first two times it occured?

[Nocmen]

VT.

DP

[Nocmen]

I don't agree directly with llama that Emp is town because of that post. As said before, and I stand by that, while at the same time I still don't know what to think of Emp.

Llama has done a good job making me think he is town, but I still have him as my third suspect, behind Corv and DP, due to Fenhl's actions still at the end of yesterday.

I'm looking into Haylen as a possibilty, as the votes from her seem a bit opportunistic based on the wagons since she replaced in. I'm not sure if that's enough to go off of, so I need to do a reread on the people she replaced in before I make judgement before deadline.

[Nocmen]

I agree for once.

Vote: No Lynch