Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[fallen angel]

/confirm

[fallen angel]

VOTE: Lrdwhyt because I can't pronounce his name.

[fallen angel]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

Out of curiosity, why do you want nocmen to start?

[fallen angel]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale.

Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

I'm pretty sure that if he tells you it's purely for reactions, it doesn't get the desired effect.

As for the mass claim, I see no harm in it, although I'd be interested as to what good you think could come of it, Empking. Like havingfitz said, nobody is likely to claim anything other than VT, as a power-role claim is practically suicide, and a scum claim

is

suicide.

If we do mass claim, I would prefer to wait until everyone has confirmed.

Also,

Unvote: LrdWhyt

. We seem to be leaving the RVS fairly quickly, in my humble opinion.

[fallen angel]

My comments are just inside of the quote, but they're in

red

.

I support massclaim

because it'll help us win the game.

Assertion fallacy. Prove it…don’t just assert it, as I asked earlier to no avail:

• Can you show me one game where everyone claimed on D1...and had success with it?

I agree with this, empking. You can't just say, "It works because it'll help us win the game." That's not proof, and it's pretty subjective to boot.

1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.

If you knew how massclaims worked you would realize it is better to have the scummy or more suspect players claim first. Your comment above is correct but the problem with it is that on D1 you have no way of knowing who those players are. If scum claim near the end of the massclaim they have a better chance of making a fakeclaim that is likely to not be countered.

Does this mean that you don't object to a mass claim later on (late D1 or otherwise)?

2. We

may be

able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.

‘May be’ is equal to ‘maybe not.’

3.

It lacks many problems.

Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

How many problems = many? It only needs a few problems to be a bad idea. Here are two problems for your consideration since you don’t seem to be considering everything:

1) If all the town participate truthfully, town PRs are revealed and subsequently NK’d.
2) Scum will lie. If they fakeclaim VT then that will create a lynch pool from all the VTs and not take into consideration potential PR fakeclaims from scum who might get to claim near the end.

But if you force the scummy players to claim early, like you agreed above. If scum false-claims a power role, then it can be counterclaimed. If we lynch the actual power role, and scum counterclaimed, we lynch them the next day. That's what happened my first game, and it ended pretty well. https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewt ... 7f898e2fd3. As for the vanilla townie lynching pool, that's basically unavoidable, regardless of what day there's a mass claim. There's always uncertainty about who you're lynching, without a cop confirmation.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

I never made any argument to the effect of what you are attributing to me above. That is a misrep on your part.

Unvote, Vote Empking

. Also, “Or whatever reason you’re using?”…if you don’t even know why I oppose a D1 MC then how can you call it nonsense. You’re just talking out of your ass…i.e. talking nonsense.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

Ridiculous (no offense Nocmen) as someone else has pointed out. But since you put so much stock in his join date,

I'm not too sold with the mass claim,

and I'm still confused as to why exactly you choose me first for the claim, but I'll gladly do it if I know that people are up for it.

I understand the benefits of a mass claim, but not in D1 when there is no other information to back them up or prove someone wrong.

I'm all for massclaims later in the game (say D3...at earliest D2) but until someone shows me some successful examples of a D1 massclaim I am opposed to one in here.

---

@singersigner…shouldn’t we give DavidParker the opportunity to hang himself? I have a hard time supporting a DPPL but as I’ve played in at least one game with him, I am amused with your idea.

As for your RQS questions…shouldn't the asker answer first?

Why would that matter...? They're simple questions. Ah well, to each their own.

Singersinger- Not that it matters if you're V/LA, but...
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise? Hopefully one post a day. I like to be active.
2. What time zone are you in? That's a very good question... It's noon here, if that helps...
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent? Probably not, but it depends on the circumstances, I suppose.
4. What generation are you in/from? *Sigh* Unfortunately, the one that cares more about Jersey Shore than reading.
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question".

[fallen angel]

Edit: ***At least one post per day.

[fallen angel]

We wouldn't have to commit to it now any more than we would a D2 or D3 claim. Can you explain your reasoning behind why we would?

[fallen angel]

Well I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason. Get used to it.

Or just vote me off.

Vote: AdumbroDeus

I think he had other motives behind suggesting a day 1 claim. He's obviously not dumb enough to think people would have agreed to a mass claim. And this game isn't full of inexperienced players so he wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. Recklessness = Town in my eyes.

This bothers me. You provide no reason other than you think empking is town, and not wanting him in lylo is scummy to you. You're buddying with empking, declaring that he's town with no reason other than, "I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason." Your vote is baseless other than your belief that empking is innocent. Also, how is recklessness any more of a town tell than a scum tell? It's wifom. "Oh, the scum don't want to be lynched, so they won't act reckless, but the townies are less worried, so they can be reckless." "So wouldn't scum act reckless to appear to be town?"

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.
VOTE: DavidParker

[fallen angel]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

[fallen angel]

Well I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason. Get used to it.

Or just vote me off.

Vote: AdumbroDeus

I think he had other motives behind suggesting a day 1 claim. He's obviously not dumb enough to think people would have agreed to a mass claim. And this game isn't full of inexperienced players so he wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. Recklessness = Town in my eyes.

This bothers me. You provide no reason other than you think empking is town, and not wanting him in lylo is scummy to you. You're buddying with empking, declaring that he's town with no reason other than, "I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason." Your vote is baseless other than your belief that empking is innocent. Also, how is recklessness any more of a town tell than a scum tell? It's wifom. "Oh, the scum don't want to be lynched, so they won't act reckless, but the townies are less worried, so they can be reckless." "So wouldn't scum act reckless to appear to be town?"

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.
VOTE: DavidParker

How is recklessness a scumtell? By your logic, scum would give off towntells all the time, thus making them scumtells as well.

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that DavidParker said it was a town tell, but that's complete wifom because scum could use it to appear town.

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.

Oh trust me, I'm not even going to argue or refute this, because it's true. But I'm buddying because I'm right (he is town) and don't mind using silly falacies if I have to.

This makes me even more sure of my vote.
1) You admit to buddying.
2) You either know that empking is town, meaning you're scum, or you've got such strong confirmation bias that it doesn't matter what he actually is.
3) You admit that you're case is not based on any fact that we can prove.
4) You are perfectly fine using fallacies. Fallacies

don't prove anything

. According to Wikipedia, a fallacy is "incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception." In layman's terms, a mistake. You're saying you're willing to use mistakes and misconceptions to back up your argument that empking is town.

In my eyes, you're either scum (and therefore know empking is town), or are tunnel-visioning his innocence. Either way, it's bad for the town.

[fallen angel]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

[fallen angel]

But the entire argument for or against empking's townliness is wifom. He could be scum, but why would scum push forward an idea that makes them seem anti-town? If he's town, why suggest it at all? But maybe he's scum, pushing the idea because he wants us to think that he's town pushing a scum idea because no scum would be dumb enough to push an anti-town idea. It gets us nowhere.

[fallen angel]

Again, because all you need to do is look at the fact that strong players can push through ideas were are fundamentally destructive to town. I can provide a wonderful example from my days as a noobish mafia player from another site in the form, of chrono trigger mafia (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820), check out the endgame interaction between the confirmed indies and town.


There, you have a concrete reason why it would advantage him to do it as scum and no concrete reason to do it as town, unless he's got an esoteric role (normal game guidelines...). If he has some other reason, he'd best explain it, fast.

So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that DavidParker said it was a town tell, but that's complete wifom because scum could use it to appear town.

I don't think this would be called WIFOM. It's perfectly normal for someone to point out that someone else has a towntell.

But the entire argument for or against empking's townliness is wifom. He could be scum, but why would scum push forward an idea that makes them seem anti-town? If he's town, why suggest it at all? But maybe he's scum, pushing the idea because he wants us to think that he's town pushing a scum idea because no scum would be dumb enough to push an anti-town idea. It gets us nowhere.

You really like WIFOM, don't you? But, no, it isn't WIFOM. Empking did something that could be ascribed to being scum (trying to influence 'weak' players), but is a questionable move as an innocent. The possibility that he's scum trying to seem innocent by doing something that seems like a scum move exists, but saying his move could be scum-motivated isn't WIFOM.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

[fallen angel]

[So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

You're missing the point, there's nobody beyond him that seems to be no notable players in this game, so the entire town is the "weaker players" in this case.

I'd like to see what game he got the scummy for, before I agree with you. I doubt that empking changes too much from game to game, or most players for that matter, and his performance in that game could be similar to here.

Also, the second quote was from me as well.
And I'm not missing the point. Just because he's the only one with a scummy doesn't mean anyone else here is necessarily a bad player, it just means that they haven't been on as long, or haven't had as notable a performance. Most scummers don't have awards. I think you're putting a little too much stock into the fact that empking does.

[fallen angel]

Still think you're putting too much credit to the scummy and empking being more experienced. Regardless of town or scum, don't you think *any* experienced player would know better than to continue pushing an unpopular idea after his lynch had been proposed because of it?

[fallen angel]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Jester speculation gets town nowhere....and I have a policy...

Vote: fallen angel

I wasn't seriously saying he could be a jester, it was simply to get the point across that we don't know what his role is. About your policy, you mean your policy of calling random people town? Neither of those gives you any reason to vote me.

[fallen angel]

So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue.

[fallen angel]

The reason everyone is bothered by it is because you're forgetting that this isn't the only place to play Mafia. I'd played for 2 years before I even started looking for somewhere to play online. People could be great players with plenty of experience, but be like singersinger and have joined less than a year ago.

[fallen angel]

The reason everyone is bothered by it is because you're forgetting that this isn't the only place to play Mafia. I'd played for 2 years before I even started looking for somewhere to play online. People could be great players with plenty of experience, but be like singersinger and have joined less than a year ago.

STOP DISTRACTING FROM THE TOPIC AT HAND WITH YOUR FUCKING HURT EGOS! LYNCHING SCUM IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN BITCHING CAUSE I SAID EVERYONE'S E-PENIS SMALLER THEN EMP'S CAUSE IT WAS NECESSARY TO MAKE MY POINT!

Wow. I haven't read the rest of the stuff, and I don't intend to at the moment (work sucks >.<) but this is... wow. I really don't care about my ego, or anyone else's for that matter. MY point was that your point is absolutely retarded since people could have off site experience, and you're straw manning that into something completely different. This is fascinating, but a complete waste of everyone's time, and it doesn't help us catch scum.

[fallen angel]

So we can assume that in future games emp, you will constantly propose MC in mini normals?

And Adumbro and fallen angel, do you think disclaiming someone's experience and being called weaker has anything to do with them being scum?

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

I feel I should respond to this to, as it won't take long. I think that disclaiming someone's experience and calling them weaker could have something to do with their being scum, if used as a technique to question the validity of the argument, like "I'm not scum, his case is bad because he has less experience." Other than that, I guess it varies depending on the situation.

[fallen angel]

V/LA until Friday.

Sorry, but the semester's ending and I'm too busy to devote the necessary amount of attention. I'd be interested in why I'm scum, DP, other than the fact that I'm voting you.

Noted, thanks

[fallen angel]

Also,

Unvote

, just 'cuz I don't want that to influence anything in my absence.

[fallen angel]

V/LA is over, so I'lll read through and post tonight.

Hi Incognito! It's been a while.