Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[Sotty7]

Reading and all that jazz. Currently only up to page 8 but I hope to get a bulk of the game done today.

If there is anything I need to address right away let me know.

[Sotty7]

Unvote

I need to look over IAM a bit closer to confirm my suspicions.

Until then...

Vote Sotty

because she has been scum everytime I have played with, and lost to, her.

And welcome BTW

I love you too Fitz.

Yesterday I got sidetracked and went to the Vikings last preseason game. I have about a third of the read done. I am going to try and power though the rest by the end of day.

[Sotty7]

I'm still here reading and would really like a chance to be fully caught up before there is a hammer.

Lots of walls is making it hard to wade though but I am making progress (coming up to page 20)

[Sotty7]

Vote: PranaDevil

After finally finishing the thread my two biggest scum reads are PD and Fitz, which is hard for me because I don't think they are likely scum together due to the whole dalt fiasco. More on that later.

Lat's case on PD is pretty good in my opinion. The initial post he made today was good and it literally made me question the read I had on that player slot at that time (was leaning scum). Prana starts to defend himself and he isn't too bad at it really, but the biggest point of that case in my eyes, is his transition from Xite is scummy, would lynch, to not having a read on him. He can claim distracted, he can claim he forgot, he could claim anything but it comes down to trying to find the townie motivation. No matter how distracting another player is a townie shouldn't be forgetting why they suspected other players in the thread, especially when we are still in day one. There is just no excuse for it and makes me think that PD's initial reasoning for suspecting xite was BS and so over time he forgot he was supposed to be finding that slot scummy and slipped up.

I think that whole reaction is the key to that case, and is the main reason my vote is on PD. Another strong part of the case is this:

Hadn't really noticed dalt before fitz. But the fact this isn't his first game, and he knows how he should be voting are rather concerning. It's not even a possible noob tell, just a blatant attempt to lie about being a new player. Not sure if I'm going to vote for him as it would feel more like a policy lynch (Lynch All Liars) but it's definitely shifted him up in my views of being scum.

Okay, I was letting Nexus and Lat have their debate, and seeing what I could get from it. Nexus appears somewhat scummy to me, but I'm still not sure if he's outright scum, or it's because he's not used to the seriousness of this site. So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Dalt is still suspect, I'll give him a pass on the fact it wasn't a full game he played before as he replaced out. However an activity post and nothing more is always suspect from where I sit. I want to hear Dalt's comments on everything that's gone on, most noteably everything regarding him.

However, by default that means havingfitz shoots up my suspect list. I'll admit to not actively checking the game Dalt was in until it was pointed out, because I honestly didn't think someone would stretch so far as to link to a game someone replaced out of in short order, and while it still supports Dalt knowing how to vote. I think it makes HF look scummy to be trying to portray Dalt as a liar.

---Snip---

On reading the thread, these two reactions are just pretty ridiculous when you put them next to each other. The first one is PD just taking Fitz's word as golden because he clearly doesn't check the game in question. Just looking at PD's defenses of himself, it is clear he isn't a lazy player so to me it looks like he just took this as a chance to position himself for an easy lynch.

When it is outted that Fitz didn't explain the whole truth PD still finds dalt a suspect despite it being clear that in post 100 the only reason he

noticed

dalt was because of the Fitz linked game. Despite what some might want to claim, dalt was never active in this game so to keep open the possible lurker lynch of a player like that is just really scummy to me.

He wants it both ways. Dalt and Fitz are scummy, when he is almost as guilty as Fitz when it comes to that game.

The proceeding bickering between Fitz and PD makes me think that they aren't buddies. But there is no vote for Fitz in that time frame so maybe I am off here. Could just be distancing considering his choice of vote around that time was pretty weak. Yeah I know it is a vote for my slot, but it looks to me he had more of a reason to be voting for Fitz at this time.

His flipping on Lat today is also pretty bad. Takes awhile to vote him for tunneling but then backs off after there are a few complaints about the walls. Now his calls that Lat is town feel very fake to me, seems like a drastic change of opinion over such a short time frame. It doesn't look natural and I'm not buying it.

= = = = = =

Fitz is just all over the place in this game. The dalt suspicion was pretty weak, it has been said a million times in this thread so I won't beat a dead horse. His lack of attention in this day phase strikes me as scummy. It's like he wants to look like he is doing something without actually putting the work in. His vote on Iam is extremely weak and is one he gives up in pretty quick fashion.

Unvote

I need to look over IAM a bit closer to confirm my suspicions.

What exactly are you doing to confirm your suspicions here? You have asked him a few questions but is that it? If it is, what is your opinion of Iam now? If not, I look forward to seeing what exactly you come up with.

I'd also like you to explain your nexus vote in more detail. You cite post 740 for your reasons, but I see no reasons there, just a bunch of links.

= = = = = =

Other scum suspects right now include Leech, LmL and Nightwolf.

Wolf is hard to explain, but his style of posting makes me feel on edge. I'm trying to put my finger on it but I can't get the feeling down right now. I will take some time to read him in ISO to either figure it out or dispel it. I don't have the desire to do that having just read the thread, but I will get to it ASAP.

Leech is there because of his argument with Xite yesterday. I disagreed with a lot of his points and he even abandoned his vote for TW but continued to fight for a prolonged period of time with Xite. I didn't like it and will elaborate more later if desired.

LmL is pretty much in here after what happened in the last couple of pages. His vote on Llama is awful considering all the NK speculation that has been going on and that he himself has been apart of it. I want to see him reply some more to Iam.

= = = = = =

Everyone else not mentioned is on the right side of neutral and leaning more to the town part of my reads. I don't really see the need to explain why people are there so unless I get directly asked I won't go into detail. Needless to say I am against a Llama lynch and I think we should probably no lynch tomorrow in quick fashion. It is too late to no lynch today I think.

[Sotty7]

With the deadline in 4 days I'd like everyone to name their top two candidates for the lynch.

1. PranaDevil
2. Loud Mouth Lee

1] PD
2]Fitz

= = = = = = =

What was outted? I gave a link proving my point. I didn’t feel the need to go into specifics that I did not think made a difference. I caught him in a lie. I didn’t need to rationalize why the lie was made. Here is a question for you Sotty….did dalt lie?

Outted = The fact dalt only made two posts and the game was two years old.

I'm not interested in re-opening this debate because it clogged the thread for too many pages in this game already. But for the record, yes dalt lied, but there is more than enough reasonable doubt surronding said lie to make it look like it could have been a mistake on his part. I agree with most people here that you put too much stock into this lie for too long.

What is your point? If it was weak would you expect me to keep it there?

My point is I'd expect a more reasoned vote from you at this point. If RL is truly kicking your ass that does explain it though.

I looked him over a bit closer and asked a few questions. What would you do?

Probably ISO him as well, if I was really feeling scum vibes.

The reasons are the text next to the links which is supported by the posts the links take you to.

The reasons are weak and suck. You really can't do better?

= = = = = =

PD, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. “Lost track” and “forgot” are basically the same thing, period.

Straight question:

Is not liking meta scummy? Yes or no.

No.

Straight question:

What does that have to do with anything?

= = = = = =

I absolutely did not abandon my vote on TW.

You missunderstand. I meant you abandoned your vote on Xite

but

continued to argue with him. In fact you did more to argue with Xite than you did to TW. I find that strange seeing that your vote was on Wendy, that would mean you find her scummy and would have a reason to argue back and forth with her. You didn't really do that.

Also, what you're failing to consider, there is the fact that I was voting Xite before TW until Wendy went into crazy scummy mode. Most of the players were confused by TW's play, especially after the alt slip.

Fair enough, but why didn't you question Wendy with the same vigor you did with Xite?

Considering I was consistently getting scummy vibes from Xite, once I realized that Wendy was probably town, in spite of the plays that I perceived as scummy previously, Xite was then the person I felt to be the scummiest player. I took my vote off of TW to prevent a lynch of someone that I felt was town. The only thing that I "abandoned" was a lynch on a player I had a town read on, at that point.

I am going to have to look over your ISO to see how you did transition off Wendy. I'll try and get to that today.

[Sotty7]

PD, the fact you don't like using meta and yet used it anyway without checking makes you look even worse. Where was the I don't like meta speech at the time? You jumped on a piece of info that you thought made dalt look scummy when it really didn't.

Simply put, it's opportunistic.

= = = = = =

Wolf, why'd you chose to vote for Nexus over LmL?

[Sotty7]

Prana what do you think of Nightwolf and Leech?

[Sotty7]

@ Sotty:

I would like to think that the above would answer your question, considering how general it is. Anyway, basic short version: I find Nexus to be a bit scummier than LmL right now, and my opinion of LmL could still potentially change for better or worse pending his response post, so I am voting who I find more likely to be scum. Also, I think that if Nexus flips scum then it could point toward LmL as his partner (though this probably works the other direction as well, and I would still need to look at interactions with some other players if either flips scum, but I do see a potential connection there). Anyway, is there some reason you think I should be voting for LmL instead?

I just didn't like how you listed Nexus and LmL as your two suspects at the time then slapped your vote (IMO) on the weaker of the two. Then you pressured Nexus to move his vote from your other suspect LmL. Smells like a connection to me.

= = = = = =

You missunderstand.

I meant you abandoned your vote on Xite

but continued to argue with him. In fact you did more to argue with Xite than you did to TW. I find that strange seeing that your vote was on Wendy, that would mean you find her scummy and would have a reason to argue back and forth with her. You didn't really do that.

I swear, the next person that says I missunderstand something or that I misread something,

when I didn't

, is going to make my head explode:

Leech is there because of his argument with Xite yesterday. I disagreed with a lot of his points and

he even abandoned his vote for TW

but continued to fight for a prolonged period of time with Xite.

I didn't misunderstand, I replied to what you said. If you meant, what you later said, it's not my fault that you worded it incorrectly in the first place. You said I abandoned my vote for TW when I never did.

*Sigh*

Perhaps I didn't word it as clear as I could have but please read the part were you quoted me again with the context that I mentioned Xite the sentence before. “I disagreed with with a lot of his points (RE: Xite) and he even abandoned (his Xite vote) for TW."

I can see where you could possibly get confused. I am not accusing you of abandoning your TW vote, because I don't think you did. Please excuse my dyslexia and poor sentence structure but that is what I meant.

Your explanation makes sense and is some what reasonable so I'm going to drop this point for now. Just as I was reading the thread I didn't understand why you switched your vote when things clearly weren't settled between you and Xite. That is always a red flag for me.

= = = = = =

Unvote, Vote: LmL

Deadline is in a day and I don't like the Nexus wagon much. Feels like a push on a slightly weaker player I don't see anything staggeringly scummy there. LmL on the other hand has been jumping all over the place trying to spread suspicion when he is just as guilty as the person as he tried to accuse. Iam's case is a good one and I am willing to follow it.

[Sotty7]

Nexus is Llama your number one pick for scum?

[Sotty7]

I was hoping that Nexus would put his vote on LmL as I would prefer that lynch over any other of the possibles right now.

There are so many people deadline lurking that it is making it hard to do anything.

[Sotty7]

Vote: No lynch

[Sotty7]

Don't worry about that right now. This is the play. No other discussion.

[Sotty7]

Vote No Lynch

[Sotty7]

What he said.

Pretty sure we need to no lynch again though.

[Sotty7]

Explain to me why we shouldn't force the scum to kill?

[Sotty7]

I don't know why I put a question mark at the end of that request, but there you go.

[Sotty7]

Vote: No Lynch

[Sotty7]

Right now I don't want to lynch PD, his reaction yesterday felt like an annoyed townie to me, plus the Lat kill is

too

perfect. I'm starting to think Fitz might be town as well. That puts me in an awkward position, because they were two of my bigger scum reads.

Vote: iamausername

Gonna see where this takes me for now. Mostly gut at this point, well look back later as to why I feel this way.

[Sotty7]

I spent some time looking over the thread. Here is what I have come up with and what I am thinking right now.

Post 632 - Xite lynch

Xite91 -6- Lateralus22,

Nightwolf, Leech, iamausername,

tomorrow wendy,

llamafluff

tomorrow wendy -5- Xite91, LoudmouthLee,

PranaDevil, havingfitz,

Nexus

Llamafluff -1-

ConfidAnon

Post 849 - Nexus lynch.

Nexus -4-

havingfitz, Leech,

Lateralus22,

Nightwolf

LoudmouthLee -3-

iamausername,

Sotty7,

Llamafluff
Llamafluff -3- PranaDevil,

LoudmouthLee, Nexus

These are the two lynching wagons we have to work off. Now I know I'm not confirmed town, so my player slot is in light green, the rest of the townies are bold green. My color is mostly for my own benefit as I look at the vote counts.

The fact is the scum have been screwing with us in this game. They know that in a mountainous game, the only real hard info the townies get are flips from lynches and kills. By killing scummy people they are attempting to confuse the town as much as possible and leak as little info as humanly possible.

This tactic makes me believe that the scum are experienced.

After the day one lynch they decided to kill tomorrow wendy, the competing wagon to Xite. I think we can all agree this is strange because many people found TW scummy for the stuff he pulled and he would have been a viable mislynch. So why kill him?

I think it was Iam who said that killing TW does one big thing, it spreads suspicion among all the voters that day. My initial reaction was that there was scum on each wagon and they wanted to blend in. However, that makes little sense. If the scum were spread out then why would they worry about the scrutiny on the lynching wagon? Because that's what the night kill screams at me, they wanted confusion... Why? Were both scum on the lynching wagon? I'm starting to think so.

Nightwolf, Leech, iamausername, llamafluff

Post 849 - Nexus lynch.

Nexus -4-

havingfitz, Leech,

Lateralus22,

Nightwolf

LoudmouthLee -3-

iamausername,

Sotty7,

Llamafluff
Llamafluff -3- PranaDevil,

LoudmouthLee, Nexus

Moving onto the second lynch we have the same culprits on both the lynch and the kill with the addition of Fitz. What makes this lynch slightly more interesting is that we have both LML and Llama tied for the second most votes. The scum opt to go for the same kill method, probably with how successful it was the last time. So why LML over Llama?

Llama is strong player, able to talk his way out of trouble. Lee was, at this point, a lurker looking worse by the second. Killing Lee in this situtaion makes little sense, unless Llama is a scum buddy. Looking over day one, Llama and his player spot spent a lot of time in the top tier of vote getters (enclosed in spoiler).

Spoiler: Day one Vote counts

Post 183

Nexus -4- Xite91, LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22

, Leech

ConfidAnon

-2- iamausername, PranaDevil

dalt54321

-2- Saga, havingfitz
Korashk -2-

dalt54321,

ConfidAnon

PranaDevil -1- Korashk

Post 201

Nexus-4- Xite91, LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22,

Leech
Korashk-4-

dalt54321,

ConfidAnon,

PranaDevil,

Nexus

dalt54321-2-

Saga, havingfitz
ConfidAnon-1- iamausername
PranaDevil-1- Korashk

Post 229

Llamafluff -4-

dalt54321,

ConfidAnon,

PranaDevil,

Nexus
Nexus -3- LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22,

Leech

dalt54321 -2-

Saga, havingfitz

ConfidAnon -1-

iamausername
PranaDevil -1- Llamafluff

Lateralus22 -1- Xite91

Post 257

Llamafluff -3-

dalt54321,

ConfidAnon,

Nexus

Nexus -3- LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22

, Leech

dalt54321 -2-

Saga, havingfitz

Lateralus22 -2- Xite91,

iamausername

ConfidAnon

-1- PranaDevil
Not Voting: Llamafluff

Post 279

Llamafluff -4-

dalt54321,

ConfidAnon,

Nexus,

havingfitz

Nexus -3- LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22,

Leech

Lateralus22 -2- Xite91

, iamausername

ConfidAnon -2-

PranaDevil, Llamafluff

dalt54321 -1-

Saga

Post 312

Llamafluff -3-

ConfidAnon,

Nexus

, havingfitz

ConfidAnon -2-

PranaDevil, Llamafluff
havingfitz -2-

LoudmouthLee, tomorrow wendy

tomorrow wendy -2-

Saga,

Xite91

Lateralus22 -1-

iamausername

Xite91 -1- Lateralus22

Nexus -1-

Leech

Post 377

tomorrow wendy -5-

Nightwolf,

Xite91, LoudmouthLee,

PranaDevil, Leech
Llamafluff -3-

ConfidAnon,

Nexus,

havingfitz

Xite91 -1- Lateralus22

ConfidAnon -1

- Llamafluff

Lateralus22 -1-

iamausername

No Lynch -1- tomorrow wendy

So the key question becomes, why did the scum chose LML over Llama? Where both scum on the LML wagon? Did the scum just want more confusion? Is Llama scum so he couldn't be killed?

I also want to note that both Nightwolf and Leech were the only two players on both our two mislynches. It is entirely possible that they are both scum and chose to kill the next highest wagon as a way to distance themselves from this fact. If the vote counts didn't make me look so hard at Llama I would be considering this very much.

My next step is to look at the ISOs of these four players and work some more on motivations and the like, but after doing this foundation work I think Llama is very likely scum. Depending on the ISO work though, it might lead me to wanting to lynch one of the two that were on both wagons. If Llama didn't spend most of the game under pressure, that is where I would probably vote right now.

TL:DR?

• Scum are playing us with thier night kills. They are probably experienced, they want to give away as little info as possible.
  
• The initial play of killing the next highest wagon points to BOTH scum being on the first lynching wagon.
  
• Therefore, I suggest scum lie in the following four players: Nightwolf, Leech, iamausername, llamafluff
  
• Llama was tied with LML for the second highest wagon on day two. Why was LML killed instead of him? Especially since Llama was also a high vote getter during day one. If the scum really wanted confusion, they would have killed Llama.
  
• Nightwolf and Leech were the only two players on BOTH mislynches.
  
• I think the scum are one of Iam/Llama and one of Leech/Nightwolf.

Unvote, Vote: Llama

I understand that a bulk of this post in WIFOM, you'll just have to deal with it.

[Sotty7]

Ack got the prod, lost track of time. Reading catching up.

[Sotty7]

Llama I pretty much think the vote counts on day one coupled with the fact you tied LML make you look really, really bad. Like, horrible. You could post nothing but rainbows and kittens and it wouldn't sway me from that fact. Vote count analysis is a bitch, but what can you do? You are easily the scummiest player on that play alone, hence my vote. I will spend time re-reading the thread but the prevailing impression I get from the night kills is that scum are desperately trying to hide. They no lynched for a couple of days to stop us from figuring anything out. Why? What are they so afraid of? One of the other four might leapfrog you on re-read. Not holding my breath though.

= = = = =

You are right, I have been on both mislynches. I'm not sure how that is even remotely relevant though.

You being on both mislynches is relevant because that's what scum want to do. Mislynch townies. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are completely overlooking reasoning in your theory. If you just look at who was responsible for lynching who, without taking into consideration reason, you are willingly tossing out information that is rather contradictory to your theory. For starters, you are contradicting yourself. You are saying that you feel that the scum in this game are experienced, yet you're saying it's likely that I'm scum buddies with Nightwolf, and that we're blatantly pushing mislynches. I don't see how that lives up to the "experienced" moniker that you are attaching to other portions of your theory.

For one, I concluded that the scum are one of you and wolf and Llama and Iam. My plan B is you and Nightwolf.

I probably should have mentioned that I believe Nightwolf to be either an alt (his posting style feels somewhat familiar to me, especially the coloring of words he used in an early post.) or has played mafia elsewhere making him experienced. There is no way I would class Nightwolf as new player, he knows exactly what he is doing.

So, what damage does 3 consecutive no lynches do? Considering the scum are clearly screwing with us in this game, that play would perfectly fit the scheme. If that's the case, though, it did backfire due to the mod imposing the draw rule, but it's not like he could push no-lynch twice resulting in a no-kill and back pedal on the third one, is it?

The damage is obvious, it gets the town out of its rhythm which has been displayed already this day. Slow posting, nothing really going anywhere. Re-reading is a pain in the ass and people will put it off and become apathetic. Outside of not giving away information, this is probably a big reason as to why the scum did this.

I don't think the kill had anything to do with who was on what wagon. I think the first two kills were attempts to make it harder on the town. Also, with how Llama adapted Wendy's argument he actually benefit from Wendy's death. I think it had much more to do with what Wendy was saying and who could benefit from it, which led to Wendy's death in the night.

I struggle to buy this part of your argument though. Llama was already pushing no lynch, I don't find him any more scummy for taking the torch back from Wendy after he died. But yeah, I still need to look back at Llama in more detail. I did think he was town because the cases on him were pretty poor. But I have pretty much 180'ed my town scum reads after just looking at the information we have.

Let's face facts here. Lat had a solid case on Prana, but at the end it started falling apart. Lat's comments in the previous phase were completely invalid. While No-Lynch was the only move that would benefit the town no matter what happened in the night phase, it's easy to see why town would be hesitant to no lynch again. He was clearly tunneling at that point, which is why scum killed him. People are brushing it off as a frame-job, but I think that was exactly why Lat was killed. To get that "It's too convenient" response. Prana is scum, and Lat was killed because he was right. The fact that it's "too convenient" is the reason that Prana is scum.

I'm not sure I follow. PD was hesitant to no lynch yesterday, does that not win him any townie points for you? You also agreed with my premise of scum screwing with the town, if PD is scum this doesn't fit in with that MO. Or are you arguing that they knew that the second strongest pusher of PD (me) would look at that and decide a frame and turn away from him?

The only reason I'm even remotely hesitant on my theory about Llama is due to his seemingly sloppy plays as opposed to my point about drawing TW's theory onto himself.

To be clear, what sloppy play are you talking about here?

= = = = = = =

Parma, CA was lurky not overly scummy. Sadly this is how he plays. Not going to argue that he should have gotten much more attention but it is what it is.

You don't really have much of a case on me that I can see. Semantics is weak, end of. I told Fitz I wasn't going to push the Dalt stuff, but I was a new player and would have been remiss not to at least comment on it in passing (which is what I did). So yeah, meh. I still think you are town. If that makes me scummy to you, I can deal with that.

[Sotty7]

Mod: Do mod kills end the day?

[Sotty7]

Posting to avoid a possible prod (I forget if weekends count or not) Woke up with a horrible headache, so expect content later today hopefully. If not, then tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

Llama I haven't just said “vote counts” my post 907 explains why I am thinking the way I am. In a nut shell it comes down to the fact you should be dead and your not. But if there is something in 907 you don't agree with let me know and we can debate it.

= = = = = =

Yes, you are right, scum want mislynches, thanks for pointing that out. To say that they will actually push for them, blatantly, is absurd. Town are more likely to push a lynch that flips mislynch, not scum. That's not part of blending in, in the manner that scum try to do.

I hope you aren't serious here.

For one it isn't absurd, it all depends on the scum personality involved. Scum are just as likely to push mislynches as town I know because I do it all the time as scum myself. Lets not sit here and pretend that scum only play one way and that the fact you were on both mislynches

is

a point against you. Is it an uber strong point? No. townies get it wrong too.

The point is scum will help mislynch townies

if they think they can get away with it.

Deadline lynches combined with night kills of other wagons are a perfect way

to

get away with it.

Also I have seen scum be on all townie mislynches in a mountainous game before here. (Yes I know, it's long but the two scum who did this where Spyrex and DDD, ISO the mod and see for yourself.)

I like how you half-replied to that. Ok, you consider Nightwolf experienced...Now why would be be making such horrid moves as scum with that level of experience?

What horrid play? Scum mislynching townies and getting away with it is genius play if you ask me. Am I missing something?

PD was hesitant to no-lynch yesterday. The scum also no-killed twice in the face of our no-lynch attempts. They clearly wanted us to have to lynch to keep the odds in their favor, yeah? So, who would be more opposed to a no-lynch, town or scum? I can see legitimate town reasons to object, (not wanting to draw mainly) but I do not consider Prana's objections one of those reasons.

Why do you not consider Prana's objections reasonable?

I can see your point. I just don't believe scum would be so transparent. But WIFOM and all that.

I also see what you are driving at RE: Llama and no lynching. I still want to read over it all myself (been busy) so I will come back to that once I get situated with that period of the game again.

= = = = = =

Nightwolf, I refuse to answer any of your questions until you get in here and post who YOU are suspicious of and WHY. Post 937 is so scummy it hurts me, the questions scream filler to make it look like you are scum hunting when you aren't. I have no idea who you are looking at today. It's ridiculous.

Unvote, Vote: Nightwolf

[Sotty7]

Leech what's your opinion of Nightwolf right now? Of Iam?

[Sotty7]

Nightwolf, to put it bluntly your case on PD is crap. From what I can see it based mostly on semantics as it is you twisting his words to fit your agenda. Now when Lat was pushing on Prana you basically fence sat, choosing to push other players.

After reading Lat/Prana, neither one did reach the top of my list, so I was left without a clear place for my vote. Llama had posted after I asked the question but did not respond to it, and so I chose to add the vote on for extra pressure on the building wagon thinking that he could be my top suspect depending on his answer.

Skimming down through the first few posts of the Lat/Prana debate (because after that is mostly repeating) with a quick thought or two about each topic discussed, and who would 'win' each topic in my view:

--SNIP--

Short version: I came out of that discussion with no more against Prana than I went into it with.

Before this you mention Prana a lot but never vote for him. But now suddenly he is the leading wagon and once again, here you are to place a vote just like the other two lynches we have had. It's scummy.

Out of the four I asked questions to*, I also have a couple of (not entirely thought out yet but very likely) theories on Prana's flip:
Prana = scum --> Leech = scum
Prana = town --> Sotty = scum
*Note: I said out of the four people I questioned because I haven't looked as closely into possible implications a flip would have on our other two players yet (fitz and iau), so this part could be subject to change. I'll try to update it before the end of the game day if it does seem that Prana will be the lynch.

You need to explain this. Why does Prana's flip implicate Leech or myself? You just breeze over this with no in detailed thought, like you just picked people out of nowhere.

Ok I went through everything and gathered most if not all of my thoughts/points in my notebook, including some older posts after skimming some isos. I've decided that I'm not going to place my vote just yet though, as I want some responses to a few questions/comments first.

@ Llama:

1) I'm unsure if this was actually asked already or not, but why did you choose to make the video post earlier?

What was the point of this question?

@ Sotty:

1) "the Lat kill is

too

perfect" Why? Please explain what this meant.

That I believe it was done to put more pressure on PD.

2)

There is no way I would class Nightwolf as new player, he knows exactly what he is doing.

This statement just strikes me as odd. If you know that I know exactly what I am doing, then that would imply that you have an idea as to what I am doing as well, and therefore a stronger read on my alignment than you are currently displaying by listing me as one of your top suspects and yet not voting or pressuring me at all.

You know this is BS right? I never said I knew what you were doing I said

you

knew what he was doing in the context of the game. Weak attempt to throw dirt on me.

@ Prana:

1) Why do/did you think that scum would want to draw when we were heading toward the third no lynch?

Fluff. Why does it matter?

@ Leech:

1)

So, you ignore my votes on you, and brush off my Fitz vote as RVS. It was at the beginning, but as time progressed I became more comfortable with it being there. It went from being my RVS vote, to an actual vote, before Xite made me change it. I guess I should have made that clear in the thread.

What was it that made you more comfortable with your vote on fitz?

Why is this important to ask?

2) What are your thoughts on iau updating wendy's chart?

More fluff with zero analysis.

3) From near the end of Day 2:

We lynch Nexus:
1. Nexus flips scum, the possibility of Nexus bussing is a distinct possibility.
2. Nexus flips town, then a lot of the reason to suspect LmL is no longer there.

Please elaborate on #2 (as if it were before Nexus and LmL flipped).

I almost want to give you this as it is some what important, but he can't answer a question from the frame of mind he was in back then, you shouldn't ask him to do that.

4)

Ok, you consider Nightwolf experienced...Now why would be be making such horrid moves as scum with that level of experience?

What about the scums' play so far do you consider horrid? Why?

Leech answered this question but you didn't comment on it at all. Why even bother asking it in the first place?

For the third day in a row Nightwolf is sniffing around the lynch and this time he is doing it for really shitty reasons. He needs to die.

[Sotty7]

Iam, I like most of your post 950. Not really sure how helpful the buddy analysis is right now, but if we manage to get a scum flip I think it will be something to look back on.

I tend to agree RE: Leech/Nightwolf. I am feeling better about Leech since our exchange today and in contrast Nightwolf has been very scummy. I disagree that Llama scum wouldn't push for a no lynch. If anything him doing that is a null tell because I would expect it from him as town or scum. Nightwolf + Llama is my current pick for the scum team.

Your Prana case is probably the strongest I have seen today, I just have a big feeling he is town. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I would much rather lynch Nightwolf.

Huh? Why not?

I just feel like it is pointless to ask someone to do something like that pretending so and so hasn't flipped. Too easy to manipulate. Of course I could be tunneling on Wolf here, I just found his contributions today to be very scummy.

[Sotty7]

Leech what's your opinion of Nightwolf right now? Of Iam?

[Sotty7]

I won't deny that I feel pretty stupid at this point.

I still think the final scum is Nightwolf though.

[Sotty7]

If you look back Leech, I decided that PD was frustrated town due to his reactions to the no lynching. I truly believed (stupidly) that scum wouldn't be so obvious and would just take each no lynch as it was pretty obvious that was happening. As for my LML switch, I did agree with Iam's reasoning for the most part, but I also switched over because PD nor Fitz were going to be lynched that day. I was compromising my position to go after a scummy player as deadline approached. One thing I will say that has been really hurting this town is the deadline lynches and the lack of majorities on the final lynches. I think we really need to fix that today. Compromise has to happen to make for an effective town.

Basically I WIFOMed myself off my gut read in an attempt to not be played by the scum. Instead I let the scum play me and make me sad.

For me it is between Nightwolf and Llama with an outside chance of Fitz. Nightwolf has been really scummy the last day so I really think it was him. Not sure what to think about Llama right now. I still think he looks bad from the vote counts, but after the fail that was yesterday I think I might put that to one side and trust my gut. Fitz was away for one of the kills, so I tend to think scum wouldn't no kill without talking it over. Still, my assumptions have been some what wrong so far, I am willing to admit this one might be as well.

But Nightwolf is really leaping out at me and is far and away my number one suspect today.

[Sotty7]

In the second phase of the game, Prana's vote was on Llama, and Sotty's was on LmL. For the second phase, again, both of their votes were NOT on the lynching wagon. This, again, removes guilt from both players having not been part of the mislynch. Sotty's argument that "Scum push mislynches if they can get away with it" is invalidated by the fact that proven scum has avoided the lynching wagon. Both Sotty and Prana have avoided the lynch wagons. This is a link between them.

You're reaching here.

My point isn't disproven because one scum wasn't on the wagon. I have already provided meta evidence to show scum will be on lynching wagons. You haven't debunked me here at all.

I don't know why you didn't argue all this yesterday when Iam brought it up, but you are arguing a few things I don't agree with. The mis quote, for example, demonstrates a lack a fimlartiy between PD and my slot. This is not something a scum team would have.

Anyway, your case is filled with things I can't really defend. Yeah I get the karma. I'm going to put my vote on the most likely scum

Vote: Nightwolf

Leech doesn't strike me as the bussing kind.
Llama could have come in here and said I was scummy like everyone else, but declared me town instead.
Fitz's reaction to Llama was kinda strange, but I am still ruling him out due to him being out of town during the first no kill.

POE = Nightwolf.

[Sotty7]

We disagree on fundamentals of the game. This really isn't something that you can find me scummy for.

You are right about my reaction to PD yesterday, that's the scummy thing that I just have to take. I wish I could defend it, but I can't. I was wrong. What more can I say?

You really shouldn't try to pad your case with gameplay ideals that you don't agree with. This is pretty much why I stopped pushing on you yesterday, I realized we were just from two different schools of thought.

[Sotty7]

Can we get a prod on NightWolf please?

I'll read and respond to the latest posts in a bit.

[Sotty7]

I'm still here.

Nightwolf's lurking is frustrating. I don't really have anything to say RE:Leech's continued push on me other than I disagree with nearly everything he is laying out but I can understand his position.

[Sotty7]

Oh hi, happy scum day to me!

[Sotty7]

If Nightwolf doesn't show up soon he will be mod killed which will hopefully just end this horrid game for me. If Nightwolf flips town, I am leaning more towards Fitz than Llama because his reaction when Llama took the easy lynch (me) off the table today was telling. It is also funny because he has essentially 180'ed on me like Llama only in the opposite direction. But it is okay for him I guess.

If Leech is scum I will cry, but I'm not feeling that at all.

[Sotty7]

....

I'm lost right now.

[Sotty7]

I would ask someone unvote me quick though.

Thinking about No lynch, not sure if it will help me much though.

[Sotty7]

Well I think no lynch. Simply because it will bring it down to a 50/50 choice. Better odds.

[Sotty7]

Vote: No lynch

[Sotty7]

No I won't. Not if we are no lynching.

I would ask Llama doesn't either.

[Sotty7]

Okay I am here, just waking up. I plan to give this game a lot of my time today to try and figure out which one of you is the last scum. I haven't really read todays posts yet but I will also get my head around that soon. Just a heads up to let you guys know that I am here.

[Sotty7]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

Xite91 -6- Lateralus22, Nightwolf,

Leech,

iamausername, tomorrow wendy, llamafluff

tomorrow wendy -5- Xite91, LoudmouthLee,

PranaDevil

,

havingfitz,

Nexus

Llamafluff

-1- ConfidAnon

Not Voting:

No one

Final Vote Count:

Nexus -4-

havingfitz, Leech,

Lateralus22, Nightwolf

LoudmouthLee -3- iamausername

, Sotty7,

Llamafluff

Llamafluff

-3-

PranaDevil

,

LoudmouthLee, Nexus

Not Voting:

No one

Final Vote Count:

PranaDevil -

2-

Leech,

iamausername

NightWolf

-2- Sotty7,

PranaDevil

Llamafluff

-1- havingfitz
havingfitz -1-

Llamafluff

Not voting:

Nightwolf

I'm posting colored vote counts more for my own benefit than anything else. Helps me see it clearer.

So I have been dreading today. With how much suspicion I had yesterday I knew I wouldn't be the kill and would probably have to spend a lot of the day defending myself from either Leech or Fitz. The fact that I made it into LYLO with both of you was my worst nightmare coming true.

However Leech surprised me. He was tunneling really hard on me yesterday, twisting everything I posted that day as scummy. The fact he is willing to stop, take a breath and take a look at the whole picture makes me feel a little better about today.

Since we are all drinking from the wine today, here are my current pressing thoughts.

• “Why isn't Leech dead yet?”
  
  
  I thought that after PD flipped scum, Leech would have been the next kill. I was surprised to see Iam take the hit instead. Leech was all over PD and with the result of the flip it gave me a very townie feel. Then Llama died when I really thought that Leech would once again take the hit to make me look worse. Him being alive is a pretty big sticking point for me. Of course, he could have been kept alive by scum Fitz to be used as an attack dog on me. So it isn't really damning and it also isn't something that townLeech would have had any control over. It just makes me uneasy.

• Fitz's careful tone.
  
  
  When I read his posts I feel like Fitz is just hedging his bets. Especially the last couple of days, he seems to stand back and let everyone else argue then every now and then drop in with some thoughts. His vote on me yesterday was weird. Day six he believes I am cleared because “I'm inclined to think both scum votes were in play” when it came to day one and the lynch/kill. He pushes Llama though this day.
  
  Day seven dawns and suddenly his scum picks are myself and Nightwolf. The two likely biggest wagons for that day. He completely abandons his Llama suspicions with no detailed explanation and it looks like he did this because Llama wasn't going to be the lynch that day.
  
  Fitz has seemed to place himself in the middle of town consensuses in the last couple of days, not making moves that might make waves. I don't like that.

• Leech's change of mind.
  
  
  Flat out, I think it is unlikely that ScumLeech would have come out with such an open mind today. The fact he did and even comes to the end of his post saying scum is probably Fitz is a real surprise to me and makes me think town. He could be manipulating me just for kicks, but with the win on the line, I don't see it happening.

• Fitz being away for the first no kill
  
  
  This is bugging me and I will go and look to see if Fitz was posting around this time he was supposed to be V/LA but why would scum cut short night like this if their buddy wasn't there to talk to? I am going to investigate some more here, but this points very heavily to Leech scum.

If I had a gun to my head and had to vote right now it would probably be for Fitz, but I'm not ready to place my vote at all yet.

Another post incoming.

[Sotty7]

Another thing that has been eating at me about Fitz is his claims that scum wouldn't bus in a game like this.

tl:dr -

anyone accusing me of bussing a lone partner in a two player game...and maintaining that opinion of guilt with their replacement when there have been frequent options to switch elsewhere ...fmpov is sadly mistaken or scum.

With only two scum in this game I do not believe scum would be as likely to bus their partner. Therefore I am happy to consider Leech town. I would almost feel the same way about Nightwolf based on his suspicions he voiced towards Prana....but they were only voiced. However...as the day was still up in the air and he could have very easily hopped on the Llama bandwagon thereby saving Prana from a lynch...I am inclined to look at Nightwolf as town.

The thing that bugs me the most about this is that is Fitz has been in a game where the scum has bussed their buddy in a two man team.

Trouble at Warren State Mental Hospital

I was scum in this game and after leading a myslynch after replacing in, I bussed my buddy Howard Roark and basically rode the town cred to a scum win. What makes this game even worse was that the town had the chance of having power roles in this game depending on the luck of the draw. As it turned out the scum drew two cops and a doc. (12 player game, yes I got very lucky)

Fitz was a witness to this game and I know he remembers it because that's why he voted me as soon as I replaced into this game.

The experience doesn't match Fitz's reactions and I would like an explanation.

[Sotty7]

Leech, your reasons for suspecting me are somewhat valid. I did back off PD and with him flipping scum I know how that makes me look. But since we are already drowning in WIFOM here is another sip from the cup, my scum meta is one of bussing. If you look though my wiki you'll see that I tend to push my partners towards the noose rather than protect them. I certainly never go out of my way to constantly defend them or protect them. I like to take the town cred of a bus if it is presented to me. Check out mafiaphobes, Gonzo and of course that game I posted above as the most recent/obvious examples. All of my scum games show me pushing on my buddies if the opportunity presents itself and even when it doesn't. Ladies Night is my most recent scum game and that was just a horrible game for me from start to finish, I don't remember bussing in there because I was too scared to do much of anything.

Basically what I am saying it that I would have bussed the crap out of PD in that situation. Especially with all the ground work I had already laid out for his lynch the day before. I just made a judgement call that turned out to be wrong. I am working hard to right that wrong.

= = = = = = =

I'm going to stew on this a little more. Spend some more time reading the game and probably meta'ing the both of you. With Fitz being away there is no rush, but I will try to post some thoughts every day as I sort this out.

[Sotty7]

Leech, why did you hammer no lynch when Lat asked to wait for Fitz to get back to the thread before it was pushed though?

[Sotty7]

Leech, what do you think about Fitz's reaction to the massclaim suggestion put forward by Iam on the first page?

[Sotty7]

Yeah sorry, I posted that as I started to read the game again as was some what hoping for a nice little real time back and forth. Time kinda passed and it is less pressing now and/or important.

As for the action itself, it feels scummy to me, but it is more than likely probably null. In that I have been over thinking and it can really be explained by town or scum. I think I am going to put it to one side.

I am currently reading though the part of the game where Tomorrow Wendy first joined. I'm finding his interactions with Fitz really interesting as that seemed to be the only part of the game Fitz was around to engage in a extended back and forth with another player. I wonder if he would have done this if TW came out as Adel sooner. I think he felt comfortable debating with an apparent VI.

The only other time he enagaged someone for an extended period of time so far, was his little "spat" with PD about Dalt. They argued for a little while yet never voted for each other. Finding excuses to vote other people. I'm finding it quite telling now. It smells like distancing.

My biggest gripe on you so far Leech is how you seemingly chainsawed LmL in the early game. That post there, comes after LmL starts pushing hard on PD as scum and can easily be argued as you trying to discredit LmL who had begun a legitimate attack on PD. In your post after you do comment on early PD stuff saying his vote was opportunistic, but you are still working to discredit the push on him.

That aside, I am finding Fitz scummier than you for his suspect interactions with PD though day one.

[Sotty7]

I can accept that, I am just making note of interactions both you and Fitz had with PD and other players.

And I will get to those games eventually. I just want to push though a bulk of this game before I do.

[Sotty7]

Ack!

Any chance of a couple of days extension? Pwetty please?

[Sotty7]

What is scummy about our difference of opinion? Player A (PD) not agreeing with my reasons for voting player B (dalt) is not a reason to vote players A.

Because it wasn't just a difference of opinion. That's my whole point.

However, by default that means havingfitz shoots up my suspect list. I'll admit to not actively checking the game Dalt was in until it was pointed out, because I honestly didn't think someone would stretch so far as to link to a game someone replaced out of in short order, and while it still supports Dalt knowing how to vote. I think it makes HF look scummy to be trying to portray Dalt as a liar.

Here PD quite clearly finds you scummy for your push on Dalt. But he doesn't vote you. Instead choosing to put a weak vote on Korashk in the same post.

So for now...

unvote; vote: Korashk

CA looks scummy to me a little, but Korashk is saying more by not saying anything at all after he was called out on that point, and I think he was hoping it would blow over by the time he returned. I'd like to see more pressure on Korashk.

This isn't the only time he calls you scummy for your Dalt push but choosing instead to put his vote else where.

OK...you admit he lied. You don't think he was 100% lying (shaking my head). What % would you assign to his lie and what % of a lie do you find objectionable?

Buggered if I know in regards to percentages, I have no clue if he deliberately lied or not, I'm just pointing out to claim he deliberately lied is to paint him scummy for your own ends, and to not actually consider all possibilities, which we, as town, should be doing.

I did not think of the password email reset possibility but whether he uses the same one all the time or had a new one sent to him, that doesn't take away the fact he at least recalled he had an existing account...which negates the comment you made about him forgetting he had signed up. The fact he had an existing account would indicate to most people that they had participated in activities here which goes against what he said in his first post (that lie thing again).

Okay, now assume he uses the same username on every forum he goes on, and forgets he's signed up here before, and goes to create an account and is told the username already exists...

See where I'm coming from here? His next action is "Oh, have I already signed up here before? I wonder..." tada.

It's called seeing things from all angles, sure, there's a chance he's lying. But considering it's a huge 2 year gap there's much more chance of him not lying and your blatant refusal to see anything beyond that lie makes you scummy, but not as scummy as...

Hey guys, I would like to call to your attention that Korashk posted just yesterday in his other game.

Can we get some votes on him?

You mean the guy who replaced out and is no longer playing this game? Vote switch time.

unvote; vote: CA

At least pretend to pay attention to what's going on.

I think the noise PD made around you combined with the lack of vote is very telling. It makes you look very bad. Plus there is all this:

Aside from the voted suspect...my reread also left me a bit suspicious of Prana. I'll effort to confirm/support those suspicions but for now my vote should be enough.

(You never follow up)

How am I trying to portray him as anything? A fact is a fact. People can make excuses for dalt’s post in this game compared to his past but I have stated nothing but the truth. In post 100 you were suspicious of him as well after I made my points on him. So how am I now shooting up your list of suspects?

@Prana…make all the excuses you want for dalt’s comments. Rationalize his play/comments until you feel comfortable ignoring them completely. I have my suspicions towards him because he lied (which is indisputable) and the inexperienced persona he has projected in this game despite playing mafia “all the time.” That experience doesn’t even get us an opinion from him. Once he eventually gets replaced out perhaps his replacement will make amends.

I do not buy Prana’s continued explanation on dalt’s behalf that he forgot about this site (considering the fact he is here again and is using a 2 yr old username.). Serious question...what non-$%^&* stupid idea would you create on dalt’s behalf that makes his lie/play acceptable?

Why are you only mentioning Prana coming to Dalt's defense? Multiple people tried to explain Dalt's actions.

I know 3-4 people have been against my case on dalt but IMO Prana has gone above and beyond IMO to fabricate excuses on dalt’s behalf despite having no clue of the real reasons.

Prana is coming off a bit suspicious under the pressure. Very defensive and I like the way he lays the groundwork for a defensive vote on tw with his "Note" in post 354 regarding his suspicions of dalt. Too funny.

HF is also scummy to me still. If only because he was pushing Dalt heavily despite him not being here. It feels like he was hoping for an easy lynch and got stuck arguing it when nobody felt it was the way to go.

Actually I've always said just because Dalt was a noob it didn't mean he wasn't scum. Wendy's play just increases the possibility for that slot, as I can't see two people in that slot making a right hash job of things.

Nice…condemn me for my suspicions towards dalt while maintaining your suspicion on that slot…followed shortly thereafter with your tw vote. I’m still not convinced you are scum but your hypocrisy regarding the dalt slot and continued suspicions towards me…when you yourself are now voting dalt/tw is annoying as he\\. Still not in my top two however.

You are more round about when it comes to your PD suspicions but it is pretty clear you find him scummy yet never is there a vote. To me it looks like the two of you are just swatting at each other while instead going after easier lynches.

I also don't believe you forgot about the open game, you voted me as soon as I replaced in. If you didn't remember what had happened why did you do that?

[Sotty7]

This lack of activity is depressing. I think I might vote soon.

[Sotty7]

Fitz...Where are you?

[Sotty7]

Ack...

[Sotty7]

Vote: Havingfitz

[Sotty7]

I'm town. If you're town I'm going to punch myself in the face.

[Sotty7]

Honestly, that ISO wouldn't have changed my mind.

[Sotty7]

Well played Leech. I hate you, yet love you all at once.

[Sotty7]

I'm embarrassed with my play in this game. That's all I can say.