Mini 1035 - Devil's Town - GAME OVER

[TDC]

Hey. Good news, I don't do bullet points.

Also, I'm vanilla, which I guess is good news as well.

Anyway, if you're going to lynch me because Dr P was a jackass, go ahead before I invest any time. Replacing in on page 4 and getting lynched on page 5 WOULD look kind of cool on my résumé.

Gotta say that hammering me before I could get in a single post (or claim for that matter) is not cool.

vote: ABR

podium: For what it's worth, I don't have the slightest clue what Dr. P might have meant when he accused you of lying.

I would appreciate if someone could flesh out how replacing out on page 4 is a scum tell, because I don't get it.

Should this be my only post, I suggest that you strongly assume there is at least one scum on my wagon, because if there isn't there's not much hope for this town anyway.

[TDC]

Also, I'm vanilla, which I guess is good news as well.

Rule 2 of hammering, dude. I'll post it in the event that noone else knows what it is.

It is good news because the only way this situation could suck more is if I was a PR. (I assume "rule 2 of hammering" is that a Vanilla claim shouldn't stop it).

Regardless of weather or not your scum, chances are there is, because Dr P. was such a bad player that it's very close to anti-town to not vote for him.

That's good. I mean seriously. I'm not even dead yet and you're already spinning a ridiculous page five lynch into something inevitable that nobody on the wagon (like yourself) can be held accountable for. Very clever.

[TDC]

Should this be my only post, I suggest that you strongly assume there is at least one scum on my wagon, because if there isn't there's not much hope for this town anyway.

It takes 5 to lynch you. You're not gonna vote yourself so there's only 3 other players in the game. Statistically speaking it would be rare that at least one scum wouldn't be on your bandwagon regardless of your alignment. But if you're saying that you're so valuable to the town that to lose you would spell the doom of us all, I'll cleverly point that out as melodramatic fear-mongering.

I'm not at all suggesting that I'm particularly valuable. If my quasi-lynch-wagon was the work of townies, then I wonder what they'd do on the following days. Probably not lynch scum.

The player slot's questionable replacement is the scummiest action in the game so far.

Where's your vote then? I'm not even L-1.

[TDC]

@TDC: Could you give a breakdown on all the players? If you are lynched and flip town everyone will have a confirmed honest second opinion.

Meh. ABR's hammer was terrible. Already mentioned that Zord seems to be trying to get the lynch through without being particularly responsible for it. (It would be "anti-town" to not vote me plus the whole appeal to authority (which is kind of funny because he's not actually mentioning where he pulled it) rule two of lynching babble).
That's about it at this point.

I'm undecided-he hasn't really posted all that much relevant (although the same could be said for most people), and he was happy to hammer the player slot before it replaced.

Actually, he hammered one hour after entry was announced.

Mod: I'm voting ABR, not podium.

[TDC]

Ah, wasn't aware my predecessors vote carried over..

unvote, vote ABR

[TDC]

How about we start with "Why was ABR hammered before he claimed?" or "Is there some prize on quick lynching I'm not aware of?"

TDC has made up for Dr P's mistakes, making Dr P seem to me much less like scum and more like a really bad player.

You need to elaborate on this. All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching" (you never responded at all to my suggestion that you used this to load off responsibility for my impending lynch), and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

[TDC]

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

You were going on and on about it as much as one can do within the three or so posts you had between I replaced in and you hammered ABR.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What I am asking is for you to explain what made you change from

I'm fine with my vote

. My second suspicion is Albert.

to (in your very next post)

TDC has made up for Dr P's mistakes, making Dr P seem to me

much less like scum and more like a really bad player

.

(which does not just mean that ABR overtook me in scuminess, but rather directly implies that your suspicion of my slot lessened),
when all that I posted between these two posts is (and I quote in entirety):

@TDC: Could you give a breakdown on all the players? If you are lynched and flip town everyone will have a confirmed honest second opinion.

Meh. ABR's hammer was terrible. Already mentioned that Zord seems to be trying to get the lynch through without being particularly responsible for it. (It would be "anti-town" to not vote me plus the whole appeal to authority (which is kind of funny because he's not actually mentioning where he pulled it) rule two of lynching babble).
That's about it at this point.

I'm undecided-he hasn't really posted all that much relevant (although the same could be said for most people), and he was happy to hammer the player slot before it replaced.

Actually, he hammered one hour after entry was announced.

Mod: I'm voting ABR, not podium.

Ah, wasn't aware my predecessors vote carried over..

unvote, vote ABR

I don't see how these two posts could've changed your opinion of my slot that much, which is what makes me think you were just jumping at the hammer opportunity that presented itself and thought you'd get away with it.

[TDC]

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing.

The problem is not just the claim thing, but the haste in general. The very least he could've done is give everyone (including ABR's potential scumbuddy) a chance to react to the imminent hammer.

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

[TDC]

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

I thought he was being especially stubborn and confrontational. Also him replacing out did nothing to help how his alignment looked. I don't think he looks like obviscum, but thought he was playing somewhat anti-town.

So he wasn't actually "acting like scum" as you claimed before?

[TDC]

The way I play is that if a person makes a scummy post, my suspicion of that person rises, and if a person makes a not-scummy post, my suspicion of the lowers. That the first few posts made by TDC wern't overly scummy made my suspicion of him decrease, and then Albert came along and made massive waves on my scumdar. Also, that this is the biggest point of discussion kinda shows how bad a position we are in.

I quoted the only two posts I made between your drastic change of mind. One is expressing some suspicion of you, and the other has no content at all.
You make it sound as if someone could claim scum in one post, then post ten contentless posts and he'd be back to neutral for you? I could agree if we were talking about posts that give you some sort of town feel, but how you take "non-scummy" posts and have them decrease the validity of earlier "scummy" posts is totally beyond me.

I forget that people on this site have a tendancy to scream "WIFOM!!!" whenever I even suggest using NK data for scumhunting. How about I rephrase my earlier request. Rather than use the fact that ed was the one who was NK'ed as a foundation to lynch someone, how about we draw a list of suspects based of who ed suspected yesterday, or else try to identify if he made any PR breadcrumbs.

As has already been pointed out, he was suspicious of you.

[TDC]

Sorry, I'm kinda ill right now, but will try to post tomorrow. Although I'm mostly interested in Zod's next post anyway.

[TDC]

I'm not really in the constituion to appreciate walls of text, so..

UT: There's nothing particularly wrong defending someone you think is town.
What I think needs to be explained is why your initial reaction to Incog focuses on defending Zord rather than yourself. That is somewhat odd considering you don't seem to actually think that Zord is particularly town (or do you? why?), just that the case is crap.
In addition you should at least have waited until he could try to defend himself.

--

Zord: If any of the following happened to you/were done by you in previous games, would you mind linking?
a) Getting under pressure for abrupt and seemingly non-sensical changes of mind.
b) Getting under threat to get lynched, but not bothering to do all that much about it.

--

Incog: I can follow your case, but I find the contradictions in Zord's play to be more troubling. Can't wrap my mind about how much that came out of the blue.

--
I don't understand the following Taz-Incog conversation:

I'm sorry about this, but I have played in this forum only since July, and Untrod Tripod was scum in a game that's now over, so I'm inclined to believe he's town now

Now, to me, the smiley would signify that, jokingly, Taz thinks he must be town here because he was scum in the other (i.e. humorously applying a stasticis fallacy) and not that Taz has found a meta tell.

Ok cool. So it's meta. I've glanced over that game, and I see that he was scum. What did he do differently there that he hasn't done here? What should I be looking for?

Incog comes to the other conclusion and asks what the tell actually is.

I have a feeling Untrod Tripod may answer be best served to answer that question. I c him browsing, but don't know if he's in another game in Coney Island

Obviousloy Taz doesn't actually have such a tell, but instead of admitting it was a joke(?) suggests that UT himself should spill the beans (lol?).

All righty. I'll give it my own look when I get a chance too.

Incog just accepts that Taz claims to have meta evidence of UT being town but would prefer UT to say it himself? WTF?

[TDC]

Zord: If any of the following happened to you/were done by you in previous games, would you mind linking?
a) Getting under pressure for abrupt and seemingly non-sensical changes of mind.
b) Getting under threat to get lynched, but not bothering to do all that much about it.

I don't seem to recall being in either situation, mostly because when I have been at L-1 before, I made a big issue of it. However, now I'm slightly more experienced, I know that if I get lynched, it's not the end of the game. Also, way to bring the 'r' at the end of my name to the front. If you must shorten my name to four letters, please shorten it to 'Zodi', not 'Zord'. It makes me think you calling me that big head thing from Power Rangers.

Sorry for the misspelling. I've never really watched Power Rangers either, so I'm not even sure how much of an insult that would be.

So basically you're saying that you are (in games as in real life) this very impulsive person that will change his mind overnight for no discernible reason, but on this site that has never actually happened before?

TDC:

Can you explain this:

Can't wrap my mind about how much that

hammer

came out of the blue.

I don't really get what you're referring to here.

[/quote]
Lost a word in there.

As for the Taz and Untrod Tripod meta thing, [..] I thought he was trying to say that he just was getting a different vibe from UT here than he did in that game. Whether or not a description of UT's play was given by Taz, I was planning on looking into it for myself anyway because getting that answer from Tazaro has literally been like pulling teeth.

Well do you still think that that's what he was trying to say? I can't follow the thought process that would lead from "this guy fells somewhat different to last game, so he's probably town this time around" to "well, you better ask himself about that". I mean clearly UT can't possibly describe why Taz would have that thought, right? I would've been rather annoyed if I was in your shoes.

[TDC]

Zod:

So basically you're saying that you are (in games as in real life) this very impulsive person that will change his mind overnight for no discernible reason, but on this site that has never actually happened before?

Would appreciate an answer.

--

UT: [quote="I]UT: There's nothing particularly wrong defending someone you think is town.
What I think needs to be explained is why your initial reaction to Incog focuses on defending Zord rather than yourself. That is somewhat odd considering you don't seem to actually think that Zord is particularly town (or do you? why?), just that the case is crap.
In addition you should at least have waited until he could try to defend himself. [/quote]
Would appreciate an answer.

--

Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.

I'm looking forward to an endgame with you :rolleyes:.

--

Untrod Tripod ain't giving me any scum tells.

Le sigh. Okay, let's use the power of L-1:

Unvote: Zodiark

Vote: Untrod Tripod

Uh.. what?

[TDC]

Zod:

So basically you're saying that you are (in games as in real life) this very impulsive person that will change his mind overnight for no discernible reason, but on this site that has never actually happened before?

Would appreciate an answer.

--

UT:

UT: There's nothing particularly wrong defending someone you think is town.
What I think needs to be explained is why your initial reaction to Incog focuses on defending Zord rather than yourself. That is somewhat odd considering you don't seem to actually think that Zord is particularly town (or do you? why?), just that the case is crap.
In addition you should at least have waited until he could try to defend himself.

Would appreciate an answer.

--

Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.

I'm looking forward to an endgame with you :rolleyes:.

--

Untrod Tripod ain't giving me any scum tells.

Le sigh. Okay, let's use the power of L-1:

Unvote: Zodiark

Vote: Untrod Tripod

Uh.. what?

Mod: Could you delete the broken post above?

[TDC]

Did the mod forget to send me some pills when I replaced in, or what's the deal with this game?

[TDC]

Wonder how much I'd have to pay the mod to convert my role into a triple day vig.

--

Sorry. Having a mind drunk with whatever makes me do weird things.

Vote: Zodiark

--

So basically you're saying that you are (in games as in real life) this very impulsive person that will change his mind overnight for no discernible reason, but on this site that has never actually happened before?

By this I mean that you can really piss me off, and yet, given time, I'll still come back and want to be friends.

What, so you thought Dr P was obvscum at the time because he "pissed you off"? Maybe I'm not making myself clear here: You're claiming that your abrupt changes of mind are a part of your meta but not providing any evidence. See the problem?

--

For the record, i've played with taz a couple of times, and his behavior can be quite erratic/spazzy.

Here is an example... skim through pages 8-13 where taz replaces in, makes like 4 votes, and ends up accidentally hammering our doctor... after previously stating that he refused to vote for that person... ...

He replaced out right after that...

Ugh. Baffling that he got nightkilled anyway.

[TDC]

What, so you thought Dr P was obvscum at the time because he "pissed you off"? Maybe I'm not making myself clear here: You're claiming that your abrupt changes of mind are a part of your meta but not providing any evidence. See the problem?

The only problem I see is you twisting my words. I never said anything about meta, I said about my personality. If I was attempting to make a meta-arguement, I would have already provided evidence.

FoS: TDC

Same thing really, as there is no method for me to verify whether that's actually true.

[TDC]

And what exactly, in your mind, is the difference between "loldrunkpost" and "lolcharacterpost"?

[TDC]

Hooray! Another hammer without claim! This game is so much fun! I can't wait to see who will be hammered without claim tomorrow!

[TDC]

And you know what? For all I know the scum team actually is Incognito and LMP. But 1) I'm certainly never going to find out because with this much bullshit going on any half-competent player's town and scum play is going to converge and 2) I don't care, because in that case they deserve to win for the great achievement of being sane.

Totally down with lynching UT tomorrow.

[TDC]

Popcorn claim starting with UT.

[TDC]

LMP: Do we? I assume we'd both be happy with UT, not sure about everyone else.

Taz: I claimed in my first fucking post. Want me to do it again? Here: I'm vanilla. Happy now?

[TDC]

Indeed. Complete with why you chose your targets.

[TDC]

Why were you worried about Incognito?

[TDC]

Dont both mafia visit the night kill...

No.

[TDC]

@TDC: Incognito striked me as having the posturing to be Machiavellian.

Is that all you're going to say about this?

I agree with LMP as far as balance is concerned.

[TDC]

Note that, if LMP and I were scum, we'd have hammered Taz by now.

[TDC]

Same goes for any combination of podium and us two, actually, he's around, too.

Pretty sure we should lynch UT.

[TDC]

How is 2 in 9 skewed towards town? Mafia win Newbie games all the time, and those not only have a semi-open setup but potentially more town power as well.

[TDC]

There is no need to rush this lynch.

Exactly.

Taz's vote looks like he is eager to be on the bus.

Meh, from Taz-town perspective, UT must be scum because otherwise he'd be dead by now.

[TDC]

Pretty sure we should lynch UT.

Any doubt holding you back?

you can't be 100% of anyone's alignment as a townie unless you're cop. And even then you can't always be 100%

You say that, but completely contradict it when you vote Taz for his claim right away (which would've resulted in instant loss if both of you had been town).
You can't tell me that you read his claim and were that sure of him being scum.

[TDC]

Remember how Taz tried to tell Incognito that UT was town?

[TDC]

Again, if you are town and if he is town and you put him on L-2 and there are two scum and the game is over with a mislynch.

Well.

You know.

[TDC]

Is he dead?

No?

Then I'd say there's a pretty good chance he's NOT town.

I'm not sure what's so hard to get here. What I'm saying is that as a townie, you better be bloody sure you're right when you lay down a vote in LyLo, within one page of the day starting, when the mass claim isn't even finished.
Laying that kind of vote down "for pressure" is ridiculous.

[TDC]

A normal game must have at least one team of two.

[TDC]

"A Normal game should have at least one Mafia faction"
A SK is not a Mafia faction.

[TDC]

I assume that's because you're still hung up about Dr P's "ragequit"?

i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

Have I missed something in your iso, or is that really the first time you say anything about UT?

--

LMP: I agree that Taz is terrible. But I think claiming a PR like that when you were to claim after him was a significant risk. And just a Watcher is rather weak. Maybe nor outrageously weak, but still. I don't think the Zod-track-and-lynch is that relevant either. (I would say tracking him wasn't that good a choice in the first place).

[TDC]

LMP: I agree that Taz is terrible. But I think claiming a PR like that when you were to claim after him was a significant risk. And just a Watcher is rather weak. Maybe nor outrageously weak, but still. I don't think the Zod-track-and-lynch is that relevant either. (I would say tracking him wasn't that good a choice in the first place).

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too. Could be that he didn't want to commit to the gambit in case I was an actual power role. And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

Oh I didn't mean to imply that I'd rule it out, just that it's something that should be considered (you seemed very sure about him being UT's partner).

--

UT's scum buddy. Who could it be? If it's not LMP, then that's a really tough dilemma to figure out.

What is the point of this post?

--

LMP: I think what's putting me off of really considering Taz-podium is that UT seems to be the most competent player of the three and yet dropped that hammer yesterday and the Taz vote today. Also, what would be the point if Taz' claim in that case? UT was looking a very likely lynch so why throw a spanner into that with the claim?
And while I understand why you think it's just podium defending Taz it is still valid evidence that Taz might actually play that badly as town. podium desperately clinging onto the Dr. P thing and trying to find one other person that agrees (presumably to facilate lynching me tomorrow) seems to tie into that well enough.
His sudden urge to lynch UT could be read either way I suppose. At the time we were both relatively clear we wanted UT dead so he may well have thought it was inevitable and he'd better be on it than not. The only question here would be why he brought up the Taz-meta in the first place when that would've been a mislynch opportunity for either today or tomorrow, and probably an easier one than trying to recreate the Dr P lynch.
As for UT-Taz.. what do you make of UT's reaction to the claim? Panicking over what he might've thought was a particularly bad fake claim? If they were going to bus, why not have Taz claim to have seen UT kill Incognito?

[TDC]

Ok...what exactly do you want me to respond to? Look at this from my perspective:

Why exactly is my hammer scummy? From my perspective, I was gonna die either today or tomorrow. It was a given. LMP has a hard-on for me being scum, Incog grabbed onto that case and wouldn't hear it any other way, and Taz's votes are so all over the place, I think you could count on him to vote for anyone. I was basically at L-1. Would the pro-town thing be to just accept the lynch? Really? I had a decent chance of hitting scum by hammering Zodiark, he was by no means confirmed. Yeah, it was a gambit, and yeah that gambit failed.

The problem with your hammer is not that you placed it, but how. Too early and in response to Incog prodding you to do "something". You were a topic of discussion at the time, but not really a competing wagon.

Yeah, I took a gambit on Taz being scum, but I was pretty sure I was gonna get lynched and there wasn't much I could do about it. I get lynched it was game over anyway, so I figure I may as well try SOMETHING.

Again there is no reason why you would have to place that vote right there and then. Nobody was voting you.

The urgency you use to justify your gambits did not exist.

[TDC]

Thought this was in the same editor window.. oh well.

I guess i'll go ahead and reveal now that earlier when i dropped that little note that i was leaning UT/TDC, it was a ploy. I was more susp. of LMP and wanted to see what kind of reaction that would illicit. I wasn't expecting all this discussion to follow... actually i thought day would have ended by now... anyway, i figured i might as well put it out here now, since we're having a big discussion.

I have a hard time buying this considering you've basically had a "still think Dr P was soo scummy"-post every other page. Since when has that not been your real opinion?

He realizes it will be me, him, and TDC in lylo

Or you realize the exact same thing and that he won't lynch me.

[TDC]

Can you refresh me on what you noted on him prior to today?

As for you being behind the curve a lot. I agree with that.
Yes you did ask Zod what happened to his earlier read before night fell, but when the new day startet you just seemed to have forgotten about it and when you finally remember it's just "he seems to be the big target today". I'd hardly call that conviction. Then you put him on L-1 (for pressure, basically), talk some more about Dr P, throw in the Taz meta and that's that day. It's not much different with UT whom you've apparently picked because he's "low hanging fruit" (and later because you think Taz is town).
That is totally different to LMP repeatedly stating suspicion of UT but only voting him when there's actually wagon support.

[TDC]

If he'd decided to pick TDC instead of me for his target, he could just as easily say "I've been sure he is scum all game, just look back at what I've said".

That's exactly what I'm thinking. The only difference between us is that you've clearly stated a town read on me while I haven't reciprocated that.

on one of those days i led the charge

How did you lead the charge on ABR? You were the one pointing out again and again that we've already had a claim and wouldn't it be smart to not get another one and just lynch me.

I didn't forget about it, i wanted him to respond to my question before i voted... is that scummy? I pointed that out several times during D2.

Again, in your first post of the day, you don't mention him at all, and in the second you merely notice that he seems to be the big target. If you were that eagerly awaiting an answer, you sure did a brilliant job to hide it.

You should take a re-read of my ISO, because you are being a little disengenious with your description. Particularly by saying that there was no conviction, and that it was only a pressure vote

For refusing to discuss the problem with me, and to move the game along.

Yeah, that really is what you said.

UT was my top scumpick when i said that because of his scummy vote... how is that not valid?

Your only response to UT's hammer was "what a mess of a game". Your very next comment was the low hanging fruit one, without ever actually saying you had a problem with his hammer. From then on it's just "Taz is town, hence UT scum".

Again, i'm not sure what you are criticizing here.

Nothing. You are basically saying that LMP is guilty of exactly what you've done. I'm saying that's not the case.

By the way TDC, you didn't comment on what i asked you to (mostly 382). I don't think you have discussed LMP all day today... if not the whole game. Why? Do you find nothing critical about his play?

I thought I did respond to that when I explained how I agree with his sentiment regarding your play. He's doing fine - not that that guarantees he's town. As I've already mentioned, this type of fucked up game is really easy to win as scum for compentent players because you can win it by playing pretty much identical to a townie. He may well be doing just that, and maybe a better scum hunter than I am would see through that, but I probably won't.

vote: UT

[TDC]

- he claims to do an ISO to determine which of us is scummy... yet leaves out a very influential portion associated with your role. i question him about it, and he dismisses it as if it was meaningless.

I never figured out what was so scummy about Dr P posting mostly meaningless garbage in the first place, so that's a non-issue for me.

- he has said multiple times that i argued against UT being scum all game. yet, earlier he described a post in which i 'implied UT was scummy'. this is actually a pretty big contradiction.

But you didn't just imply UT was scummy, you said the same about several other players and without following up on it at all.

- besides the fact that he contradicted himself, it's a lie to say that i defended UT. i clearly didn't, at any point in this game.

Yeah it would be more accurate to say that you ignored him for most of the time.

- why did my insistence of lynching you on D1 without more claims mean that we weren't partners? that isn't a logical conclusion... as we could have easily been bussing.

Obviously it is the right conclusion anyway. Whether something looks like bussing or like scum wanting to get a mislynch is always going to be a subjective call. If, instead of Taz, we'd have a fourth player here I'd be delighted to hear what he thinks about this particular point as I'm obviously predisposed by knowing we're not buddies...

We've had 2 days (3 if u count today i guess) of activity... on one of those days i led the charge, on the other i voted after others had (like LMP did).

So by "you lead the charge" you mean on Dr P? I'm really not following what you are trying to say you did.

Why does the second day count more than the first, and why isn't LMP following the crowd as well? I wouldn't say that he is, but i'm using the same standards that people are putting on me.

That's what I tried to say - he had been very clear what he thought of UT. One could say he lead the charge...

In the second, i didn't 'merely notice that he seems to be the big target'... i repeated my question, and with more detail.

I wrote that from memory, you are right that you did repeat the question there. I figure it didn't stick because it just doesn't sound particularly engaged. The way the post is phrased I get the impression that maybe you wouldn't have repeated it had nobody given a shit about Zod.

I see. So you believe even though UT hammered before the claim, that i said "what a mess of a game" right after he did, and that i had previously criticized 2 different players for doing such... that i didn't have a problem with his hammer.

Really?

I'm just missing this "UT is so scum for that hammer" post. Instead he's the low hanging fruit and, oh well Taz's claim makes him town, so he kinda must be scum, right.

[TDC]

LMP's play is just way more transparent than yours. I think I always had a good idea what he was thinking about the game (and on top of that, most of that made sense to me as well).

[TDC]

- he claims to do an ISO to determine which of us is scummy... yet leaves out a very influential portion associated with your role. i question him about it, and he dismisses it as if it was meaningless.

I never figured out what was so scummy about Dr P posting mostly meaningless garbage in the first place, so that's a non-issue for me.

... well... that's not really the point, since obviously you know Dr. P's role.

Well, but I agree that it is pretty meaningless. The Dr P wagon was horrible.

- he has said multiple times that i argued against UT being scum all game. yet, earlier he described a post in which i 'implied UT was scummy'. this is actually a pretty big contradiction.

But you didn't just imply UT was scummy, you said the same about several other players and without following up on it at all.

...dude... you totally missed the point... i dont even know what you are arguing, there.

1. LMP points out a post in which i specifically called UT scummy.

2. Later, LMP says that i have defended UT all game.

Contradiction.[/quote]
The point here would be that as far as I can tell you calling UT scummy wasn't more than a throwaway comment.

- besides the fact that he contradicted himself, it's a lie to say that i defended UT. i clearly didn't, at any point in this game.

Yeah it would be more accurate to say that you ignored him for most of the time.

So you agree it's a lie.[/quote]
*shrug* Ignoral isn't particularly "better" than defense. You seemed reluctant to lynch UT.

Let me try it this way... do you think that my insistence to lynch you on D1 proved that we were not partners?

No. And? What does scum LMP gain from declaring we couldn't be buddies for the wrong reason?

We've had 2 days (3 if u count today i guess) of activity... on one of those days i led the charge, on the other i voted after others had (like LMP did).

So by "you lead the charge" you mean on Dr P? I'm really not following what you are trying to say you did.

On one of those days I didn't follow anyone, and lead a wagon for Dr.P/TDC.

As far as I remember Zod started off that wagon. (Although it escapes me why you'd think being responsible for that wagon would be a good thing).

Why am i following the crowd on D2, but LMP isn't? On D2.

He voted him in his first post of the day, actually.

You think that i didn't think his hammer was scummy? After i had previously said doing so was scummy, to other players in the game.

But that is exactly the point. You didn't hound UT for that at all. You spend the first few posts of the day not mentioning it at all and when you do come around to talking about it, you half-assedly conclude he's scum because of the Taz claim and still don't mention it.
I just don't get the impression that it really bothered you all that much.
Asking me whether I think you think it was a scummy action is not a useful question, because my theory is that it was not at the top of your list, because he is your buddy and you hoped the topic might just disappear. I do not at all doubt that in a general sense you think that kind of hammer is scummy.

[TDC]

ugh, quote fail.

[TDC]

In your own words, what is your case against me? What have i done that has been scummy, to you?

Look, there have been players in this game that have been scummier than you and they annoyingly enough turned up town.
But at this point it's only Taz, him and you and you just fit best in the way you treated UT (and all this could be very moot if UT actually flips town which I suppose is still possible as well). That the only thing I would want to give you credit for committing to is the Dr P hate is just a bonus.

[TDC]

This is getting really repetitive now.

THEN WHY DID I SAY WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM?

i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

How many people do you figure will this post convince that they should lynch UT?
You're just going along with it.

[TDC]

THEN WHY DID I SAY WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM?

i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

How many people do you figure will this post convince that they should lynch UT?
You're just going along with it.

Surprise, surprise... you are talking about something different with your answer than the point i was addressing.

I didn't provide that paragraph to show that i was trying to convince people to lynch UT. It was to get you to think about your opinion that his hammer didnt bother me, and that i was ignoring it in hopes the issue went away.

Again, why would you NOT post something like "Pretty sure UT is scum, that hammer bothers me a lot" instead of "let's go with the low hanging fruit" if the first was ACTUALLY your sentiment at the time? You keep telling me how the hammer made you so sure UT is scum but it just doesn't show in your contemporary posts. Your basis for your conclusion (after it becoming very apparent he was going to get lynched anyway) was Taz' claim.
I really don't give a fuck whether you posted a big case later on that included the hammer, things were already decided then. It served absolutely no purpose other than potentially increasing your town cred.

i said he was my scumpick

Please, please tell me about which of your posts you're actually talking here.

When asked what your case is on me, repeatedly, you give no answer... you just talk around the subject.

And I have repeatedly explained that I think you make the most sense as UT's buddy. I'm not sure why we're discussing this anyway as I'm obviously not going to convince you that you're scum.
To put it quite frankly, if LMP was UT's buddy, why bother with the game long bus when it was quite apparent that the town was full of idiots?

By the way, i doubt that's really your theory (ignoring topics so they disappear), as i had just given that theory in the paragraph above yours.

What the fuck dude.
1. I initially brought that up here:

His sudden urge to lynch UT could be read either way I suppose. At the time we were both relatively clear we wanted UT dead so he may well have thought it was inevitable and he'd better be on it than not.

2. What do you suppose is the reason I bother wall-of-texting with you when I could just as easily wait until LMP votes you and hammer away?

lso, you continue to avoid commenting on the fact that LMP actually did this...

You will have to provide evidence that he could've posted but didn't for this to make any sense. All I see is him having a clear stance in his first post after the event.

[TDC]

And just to be clear here:

what a mess of a game.

Could that imply that you thought UT was being really scummy and that you wanted to lynch him? Sure.
Could that imply that you just thought he was an idiot? Sure.
It could mean any number of things. If you don't say what you mean and rely on people reading between the lines, you are in no fucking position to get mad when they actually read between the lines and come to a different conclusion than you want them to.
The solution is mindboggingly simple and it's called "saying what you mean to say right away".

[TDC]

And the bus started long before it was apparent what kind of crowd we have here... not that your theory is plausible, anyway.

I was hammered on page fucking four, and if the scum team is UT and LMP that wagon was 100% town.

Uhhh... the one where i said i was going to go with UT. ???

What, the low hanging fruit one?

[TDC]

And the bus started long before it was apparent what kind of crowd we have here... not that your theory is plausible, anyway.

I was hammered on page fucking four

And the bus started BEFORE that, which pretty much negates your already weak theory. But... you know... keep sticking to it...

You mean because once a bus has left the station it must keep on rolling because it will explode otherwise?

Yes, the one in which i said i was going to go with UT.

I'm sorry, i guess i should explain... i realize you have a problem reaching logical conclusions from text that doesn't specifically state it's intent to the letter... did you think i meant i was going to go with UT to the mall? I meant i was going to go with UT for the lynch.

No shit.

But that's exactly what I've been saying all along.
1. It came pretty much out of the blue. (This is where the hammer comes in, because you had until then not even mentioned it other than with this uber-ambigious post-lynch comment - and you don't mention in that post either - see that's where I got the idea that you didn't have much against the hammer, because surely if you had, you'd actually have talked about it. Your answer to this was that you had something against it when Zod did the same thing, which is true, but of course all that does is create a discrepancy between how you reacted to Zod doing it vs UT doing it.)
2. You commit at a time where Taz was already voting him (meaning he was basically lynched all but in form, because UT and I were going to vote him).
3. The phrasing ("low hanging fruit") does not sound particularly convinced of it (which is rather odd considering you claim it is a result of process of elimination and seeing how you seemed rather sure that Taz wasn't lying. One of them had to be scum.)

[TDC]

"LMP and I" obviously.

[TDC]

Again the problem with the possible interpretation of "Geez, that was a scummy hammer" is that you completely forget about it when D3 starts.
Even when you finally do decide he's scum you do not mention it.

[TDC]

Well technically Taz wasn't voting UT yet, only the other way around.

[TDC]

By the way

Dont both mafia visit the night kill... regardless of who submits it? that's how it works on other sites.

MAFIA GOON

Welcome to Mini 955, XXX! You are a Mafia Goon. Your partners are XXX(Mafia Godfather) and XXX (Mafia Roleblocker). Each night and during the pregame, you may communicate with them in the quicktopic located here.

Each night,

a member of your faction

may PM me the name of a player you wish to kill. That player will be eliminated from the game at daybreak.

You are aligned with the mafia and win when all threats to the mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can prevent the same.

Night Actions

Night 1

Seacore roleblocks Master Tang
DiamondCrash (now known as ChannelDelibird) roleblocks The Lord Jesus (now known as Ythill)
podium123456 kills esuriospiritus
Wickedestjr kills Master Tang

Night 2

Seacore roleblocks Wickedestjr
MagnaofIllusion protects podium123456
ChannelDelibird roleblocks Wickedestjr
podium123456 kills MagnaofIllusion

How could you not be aware that only one member of the mafia submits the kill if you've actually already been there and done that?

[TDC]

How could you not be aware that only one member of the mafia submits the kill if you've actually already been there and done that?

Badly phrased, what I mean is, did you seriously think that the town roleblocker in that game would prevent your kill even if he targeted one of your buddies?

[TDC]

It wasn't apparent that the town was full of idiots until much later in the game.

Well, I was aware and unlike hypothetical LMP-scum I didn't even know they were all town..

Besides that, your theory is just wifom'y weak anyway.

I might be predisposed because my last game went exactly like that. I was scum, the town was not even as bad as this one and it would never have occured to me to risk what seemed like a certain win by bussing my buddy. Hell, he was really scummy actually, I just ignored him, and he never got more than a single vote.

Then why did you question which post i was talking about?

Your argument at times seemed to be that your significant suspicion of UT actually happened earlier (i.e. final post of D2). For all I knew you were referring to that.

Again, i thought that a hammer without a claim is generally scummy... you even say you think that i think this. So it was understood by everyone that it was scummy... and there was no need for me to spell it out.

Is it just a bit scummy? Scummy enough that you'd lynch him over it? Who knows if you don't say a word about it.

And? LMP and your comments were the first posts of the day... i'm obviously going to have to follow those.

But at first you didn't.

So you're saying i only committed to UT because i saw other people suspecting him?

You comitted when he had sealed his own fate by voting Taz. You gave zero indication that you were willing to do that before that.
I mean LMP actually asked me why I wanted a mass claim when he thought was clear that we'd lynch UT and I said I thought it wasn't clear because it was only him and me. That would've been where you say "hey, I'm fine lynching him, too!" if that was what you actually thought but didn't bother to spell out because it was so obvious.

B. POE due to votes didnt come into play until

after

i made that commitment.

Why did you make the commitment at that point then? If it wasn't based on the Taz-UT conflict, then why not earlier?

That role PM says nothing about how many mafia visit the target. As a matter of fact, it implies that other mafia members can speak for the rest in the pm... 'each night, a MEMBER of your faction may PM the name of a player YOU wish to kill'. I assumed that regardless of who actually sent the pm, all mafia would show up on tracker/watcher reports.

Why bother with a designated sender in the first place if it doesn't matter who it actually is?

[TDC]

That is probably again a bit unclear. The Mod's end of game reveal clearly lists which member performed the kill.
What would be the point of that if it didn't matter?

[TDC]

podium:
Interpretations tend to be subjective. If your posts where less open to interpretation there would be less for me to subjectively interpret.

Anyway, don't really see the point in replying to 436, because we're just repeating ourselves there, and I'm content with 437.

I would like you to do the following: go into your iso, start with you final posts from D2, from there one explain for each of your posts what your then current stance on UT was, and if it changed, what made it change. End at the point you were convinced he had to be scum.

LMP:
Why is Taz dead and not you or me? Wouldn't going one to one with Taz (if Taz had even managed to not target the one of us two that died) be preferable to this?
Would you agree with me that UT reacted much more heavily to Incognito suspecting him than to you suspecting him?

[TDC]

I don't have time to read all this right now. Just posting to prove that I'm town.

Why are you not voting LMP?

[TDC]

Well, this requires some setup speculation. In newbie 9 man games, with 2 town PRs there is a scum RB. So, if that holds to this game as well, then I agree that it would make more sense for the scum to RB Taz and NK you or me. But, if there is no scum RB/RB-like-role then obviously they can't leave the tracker, since a track on them or a track on the townie that doesn't get killed is an automatic loss. So either the scum didn't have a way to block Taz, or they did, but they wanted him gone anyway.

Taz wasn't exactly confirmed. That's my point he would've gone against Taz rather than against you. Wouldn't that have been a better prospect?

--

@TDC: Yes, he did react more to Incog than to me.

Any thoughts why that could be?
I mean he has these really massive replies to Incognito and to you he's just like "lulz, you're wrong".

--

#301 - UT's hammer was scummy. Nothing changes until...

#322 - Pick UT for lynch, but not convinced he is scum.

#355 - Due to complete massclaim, and POE because of the voting, feel UT is nearly guaranteed scum.

Why did you pick UT in #322? What had happened between #301 and #322 that would make you want to lynch him? You state you don't have a town read on anyone and that you don't think Taz is scum. That leaves many more people than just UT and we've established that you weren't too interested in lynching UT just for the hammer. We've also established that process of elimination came after that post - so what made you pick UT for the lynch at that point?

--

I have doubts because of the discussions i had with TDC following that post... but that's really neither here nor there because i still think you are scummier. I haven't voted because our votes are mostly symbolic, since we are going to cross... the only vote that matters is TDC's. Also because i want the chance to make my case before a hammer.

How would my vote have mattered if I had been scum?

--

Explained in the first paragraph above your post.

I assume you realize how odd it looks to me that you are not voting the person that, if you are town, is confirmed scum.

[TDC]

Either he isn't a roleblocker, and so he was forced to kill Taz

But Taz having a guilty track on him doesn't change the situation much, it's still either him or Taz, because Taz might just be fake claiming to save his ass.
Admittedly, I would have had a hard time going for Taz in that kind of situation. But maybe he would've targetted the one of us that died (or nobody), and it's a whole different thing then..

When I first started pushing UT D1, he did respond pretty strongly.

Not much time right now, I'll look over this tomorrow. I don't think he particularly implied you were scum for your suspicion, it was more of a "misguided townie" thing he was going for, where as with Incognito, he kind of only missed out on the vote to complete the OMGUS.

I think the two situations were different. When I was pressuring him it was just me and the game was still 9 players. So he was under much less pressure. When Incog came in, it was suddenly Incog and me and there were only 7 players left. 2/7 is something to be much more afraid of than 1/9.

While that is certainly true, you were also part of the second situation.

--

Why did you pick UT in #322? What had happened between #301 and #322 that would make you want to lynch him? You state you don't have a town read on anyone and that you don't think Taz is scum. That leaves many more people than just UT and we've established that you weren't too interested in lynching UT just for the hammer. We've also established that process of elimination came after that post - so what made you pick UT for the lynch at that point?

Dude... have you really forgotten the big discussion we had about why i picked him as my lynch candidate in that post? The reason why i said he was 'low hanging fruit'?

Because of his hammer.

Dude... the hammer happened before #301. So you're saying that nothing actually changed between #301 and #322, because the reason for #322 is exactly the same as for #301. You just decided you wanted to lynch him? Why? This is exactly what I've been trying to find out all the way through and you're just not answering it.

Why did you leave out the middle question? If you can't tell, the question aims at the disconnect between the first sentence saying I might well be scum (LMP is just scummier), while the second sentence implies I'm town.

[TDC]

and after considering everything, i feel UT's hammer was susp. enough to warrant a lynch'.

And I'm freaking asking you what this "everything" is supposed to be. What was your thought process that lead from "this hammer is kinda scummy" (#301) to "let's lynch UT for the hammer" (#322)?

[TDC]

You seem amazed/dumbfounded because i didnt go "hey everyone... im going to think about everything that just happened in the game" and then later go "ok i made a decision, i think i will lynch UT".

Why did you not think about this when the game was in night phase for three days?
I mean what you are saying is that you thought the hammer was scummy, and then - considerable time later - you thought about "everything that just happened" and only then came to the conclusion that you wanted to lynch him for it.

[TDC]

LMP, what's your take on this:

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side. You buddy up with a fairly pro-town player (I'd say LMP is fairly pro-town) and ride the goodwill out for as long as possible. Your predecessor(s) hardly confirm you as town, so I feel like this would actually be a good tactic if you're scum to get us to forget ConfidAnon's lurking and replacement.

[TDC]

podium: Then bring it: What did the night kill, the mass claim, the tracker claim/reports do to further convince you towards him being scum?
(The last time I asked you what made you go for UT the answer was "UT's hammer is what made me choose him over you or LMP...", so you'll understand how much I'm looking forward to this answer.)

--

Would like to hear whatever comes to either of your minds on this post:

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

I don't know how many different ways I can say this: Taz's role is not confirmed! Unless you have a hidden info role you cannot be sure his claim is true! The vote thing makes it just as likely that Taz is scum as it does me! Your case is weaksauce if it is based on that!

[TDC]

I mean this is really fucking simple. There is evidence pile A and your reaction is "he's scummy". Then there's evidence pile B which is A+X and your reaction is "I want to lynch him". I've been asking you what "X" is countless times now and your answer has varied from nothing (A=B=hammer) to "everything that happened" but you're not offering a single concrete thing.

That just makes it very hard for me to believe that to be the honest thought progression of a townie.

[TDC]

Why did you "have to decide" before LMP had even claimed?

[TDC]

As in, your decision where you "thought about everything" including the mass claim was #322, his claim #325.

[TDC]

Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming that it took me so long to condemn UT purely on D2 evidence, because I was waiting to see what the mass claim would bring, but then when it hadn't brought anything at all other than more or less confirming someone who I didn't suspect anyway, I did not await one of my three suspects claiming because I had already seen enough.

[TDC]

Would like to hear whatever comes to either of your minds on this post:

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

I don't know how many different ways I can say this: Taz's role is not confirmed! Unless you have a hidden info role you cannot be sure his claim is true! The vote thing makes it just as likely that Taz is scum as it does me! Your case is weaksauce if it is based on that!

Both of you seem to have missed this.

[TDC]

You're about to blow this F'NG game

While I would certainly be bummed if I made the wrong choice here, I think this appeal to emotion would work A LOT better if I didn't feel the deceased townies bar Incognito all deserved to lose.

What's the point of asking both of our opinions? Obviously we are both going to say whatever helps our case and hurts the other. LMP said what he did above, and i say:

Well scum would say whatever helps their case and hurts the other. Town would just say what they thought about it.

Looks like UT was trying to make me look like a scum that had an investigative role... so that it would either make me a lynch candidate that day, or look like a bus attempt after UT was lynched as scum.

Scum don't need to have an investigative role to know Taz is telling the truth (well unless you would go as far as thinking Taz would fake claim as town..), and he's not accusing you of anything there.
That aside, who would wagon you other than him for something that ridiculous? We were all committed to lynching him.

[TDC]

Well, can't say I would begrudge edmund victory either.

[TDC]

Cheezo dude, you are really tunneled on me...

everything

i say you want to argue about. You asked my opinion about a comment a confirmed scum made (that was on death row)... and now you want to argue with me about the plausibility of it.

You want to argue that a scum on death row wouldn't try to deflect attention on anyone he could at anytime? Whatever... i'm not interested in a debate about that. It still could be an attempt at faking a bus. You asked my opinion, and i gave it.

Or wait... was i supposed to say what LMP did? Because apparently you don't see anything wrong with that opinion, and i think it's no more plausible than mine is. People often bring up the 'zomg he's coaching his partner in daytalk' scenario, and i have never seen it happen.

No. What LMP suggested was a thought I had as well, but I think it's a) too much in-your-face for that and b) you were far beyond any point where you could've reversed your opinion on Taz.

I think the post sounds really, really fake, and since the only thing it does say is "ZOMG DON'T LYNCH ME, PLS, PODIUM!" (which doesn't make much sense in the first place, because your vote wasn't needed anyway), he may just have tried to portray a will to live that wasn't there.

I don't have time to read the rest right now, but I'd prefer LMP to answer it first anyway.

I would ask you, if you are town, to kindly consider that you have one very big piece of information I don't have and that hence what may seem obvious to you, is not necessarily obvious to me. That applies both to thoughts you may have had at the time but never really voiced and things LMP did that look agreeable on the surface but you would know may well have sinister motives.

[TDC]

Really swamped this week, will come back to you tomorrow evening.

[TDC]

If anyone was worried, TDC/podium is NOT a scum team in this game, based on these interactions.

which makes absolutely no logical sense. (TDC CONFIRMED)

@TDC:

podium claims this is "TDC CONFIRMED". Do you agree that podium DEMANDING the town hammer his buddy to save from getting 1 more claim out and a possible mislynch would be an incredibly unlikely scum play? If not, why not?

I don't think I said it made "no logical sense". It is a valid argument to think it is unlikely podium and I would be scum together. What I did (try to) say is that it is orders of magnitude weaker than the fact that podium and I didn't hammer UT, so I didn't really understand what the point of the argument was, since it was attempting to prove something that was already proven.
It is a valid argument in so far as when your team consists of just two people going down one at the earliest opportunity is not that good of an idea. Just to name an example, unless you stop night killing, the Tracker is suddenly equivalent to a Cop (results are conclusive about alignment) when there's just one scum left. Going from 2 to 1 is much worse than going from 3 to 2.
Podium could easily have switched to ABR right there if I had been his buddy and nobody would've thought a thing. That doesn't prove anything, but then again, it had already been proven anyway.
Podium, why do you suppose would he bother trying to justify why we're not scum together with let's say, not-watertight reasoning, when it's already been proven pretty conclusively anyway?

3) The Dr. Pepper stuff was not ignored. I read it, but there wasn't much there but you and him arguing back and forth. Plus, his lists are almost impossible to understand. I did not ignore Dr. Pepper, I just didn't line by line ISO analyze the posts. I didn't "need" to buddy him, TDC-town was obv pretty much from the moment he replaced in. I wasn't afraid to say that, unlike you. Go back and ISO his play since TDC replaced in. It literally shines with townie goodness.

Why did you need to iso me if it was that obvious?

1) Do you hear how absurd that sounds? I think bussing implies that a buddy is under suspicion and you turn against them. I was the one who created the case on UT, and pushed it as much as I could until Incog came in and helped.

Meh, it has happened to myself that I thought something my buddy did was really obv scum and that he would get lynched very fast and I better be on it and then nobody cared.

Day 2

Then we have day 2... which is the best for last.

Zodiark hammers without a claim on a townie. Nearly everyone (note, except UT. perhaps b/c LMP was already on board?) was on Zodiarks case pretty hard, starting at end of D1 and carrying over to D2. LMP joins the party, citing TDC's criticism of Zodiarks vote... ALSO he adds 'and after a quick ISO of edmund'. Why is that relevant? Because edmund had expressed suspicoun of Zodiark on D1, and edmund was killed during the night.

OK. Then, UT continues to make a few more 'wishy washy' posts at UT, and makes some banter with me, but NEVER addresses

any

of the responses Zodiark gave, nor presses him for any additional information.

Incognito enters and says 'i dont find LMP that towny, but i do like his UT hate'... immediately LMP drops Zodiark (never to return for questions/responses) and takes up the UT case. Even incognito continued to interrogate Zodiark... LMP just pushed UT and responded to her accusations.

I hope i dont have to explain how scummy all of this D2 activity is. Several people pick up on it, and zodiark sums it up pretty good here and here.

Here, ill do it anyway: LMP votes for someone that hammered a townie without a claim, and who was under suspicion of the person that died at night. She never responds to any of his explanations, presses him for any information, nor makes any comment about the issue. She then leaves that vote, to push for someone whose entire previous case she pushed was that he was 'wishy washy'.

/perry mason

Your entire story of D2 is crap. It's all scummy retelling of the story to paint it the way you want. Also, why does my ISOing edmund and seeing that Zodiark was one of his suspects make me scum? Isn't it natural when someone is NK'ed to look back at what they said to try and find a reason why they were NK'ed? Usually they are NK'ed for one of three reasons 1) They dropped PR tells 2) They expressed suspicion of the scum. 3) They are confirmed (or obv) town. Naturally I went back and looked at edmund's ISO.

Also, I love how you paint my moving away from UT to Zodiark at the start of D2 scummy, yet then when I go back to UT and in your words "never to return for questions/responses" that makes me scummy. So if I stay on UT, (according to some in the thread) I'm scummy, if I go to Zodiark I'm scummy, if I go back to UT, I'm scummy. The whole thing is simply absurd and flat out wrong. Town can (and should) have more than 1 suspcion and can focus on more than one idea at a time. I was actively pushing the UT case, why if I felt UT was scum would I focus my attention on Zodiark?

TDC you saw how all of this happened at the time, does his description actually fit your read/recollection of the events of D2? Because I say it didn't go down like that AT ALL, and he is simply retconning D2 to fit his story.

--

Okay, so this is D2:

At the end of D1

*sigh*

horrible freakin start

Generic "Oh Noes" comment, that I assume in parallel to the almost equivalent comment a day later podium will say implies suspicion.
Looks like more of a throwaway comment to me, but he directly follows it up with another post asking Zod why he changed his mind on me (in hindsight this is probably why I never really bought the UT comment, as it wasn't accompanied by anything like that).

Come start of D2, I ask basically the same thing, get an answer, don't buy it.
LMP votes him for that exchange.
UT babbles inconclusively about me and LMP calls it. Nobody else reacts to it.
Podium makes the "Zod seems to be the big target today" post which seems somewhat disjointed considering he had already asked Zod himself about his reversal on me, had presumably read Zod's answer to me asking the same. He proceeds to ask again. Taz sums that up right there and then:

podium, did you forget to vote Zodiark?

Podium asks Zod why he doesn't answer (which is of course technically true because he only answered my questions and not his, but then they were pretty much the same questions, so they were already "answered" as far as he was going to answer, right?)
Podium votes Zod for "not responding and to move the game along". Now as I just said, Zod had responded to the accusations just not specifically to podium's posts, so why not vote him for the not-so-convincing-answers or the deed itself?
UT defends Zod and wobbles around calling Taz or me scum. LMP calls him again, but kind of leaves a door open that it might just be a playstyle thing and does UT have a recent scum game?
UT posts the link. (As far as I can tell, nothing ever happens with it. Did you read that game LMP? Why did you ask for a scum game anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to look at a town game to see whether he is that wishy-washy as town as well?)
Incognito is suspicious of UT and Zod, votes UT.
LMP immediately jumps ship.
UT makes the big post against Incognito's case. UT says Incognito is buddying up to "fairly pro-town" LMP. As alluded to previously that's a rather odd thing to say about two townies having almost identical cases on you, isn't it?
Zod and Taz both think LMP is tunneling on UT.
UT seems to agree (that is he doesn't portray himself to be suspicious of LMP, just Incognito).
podium still wants to hang me for Dr. P, is fine with his Zod vote, gut vibe on LMP for "not pursuing UT until Incognito support" (not really true, but then one could imagine him doing more, see the game UT posted that never resulted in any sort of response), "doesn't like" Taz' input.
Incognito switches to Zod, UT hammers after being prodded to do something by Incognito.

--

You missed the point. I know why you ISO'd edmund. This highlights how, even though you were aware and suspicious of things like this, you never questioned Zordiak... and dropped him like a hot potato as soon as incognito said what he did.

Well, I can't find anything there either. Then again, the only thing you say about Zod after your vote is that you're still okay lynching him. The only actual interaction with him is from Incognito and me (both of us not on the wagon at the time).

[TDC]

What I did (try to) say is that it is orders of magnitude weaker than the fact that podium and I didn't hammer UT, so I didn't really understand what the point of the argument was, since it was attempting to prove something that was already proven.

The point of the 'argument' was that the conclusion he reached didn't make sense. Things that dont make sense are scum tells. I specifically explained this to you the first time you asked the question.

"the argument" obviously refers to his argument not to yours...

You missed the point. I know why you ISO'd edmund. This highlights how, even though you were aware and suspicious of things like this, you never questioned Zordiak... and dropped him like a hot potato as soon as incognito said what he did.

Well, I can't find anything there either. Then again, the only thing you say about Zod after your vote is that you're still okay lynching him. The only actual interaction with him is from Incognito and me (both of us not on the wagon at the time).

I don't know who you are talking to, and what (if anything) you are agreeing/disagreeing with. Please clarify.[/quote]
I'm talking to you. I agree that LMP doesn't say anything about Zod post-vote-switch and I point out that neither you (nor anybody else on the wagon) do much about him either, other than sitting on your votes. Incognito seemed interested to find out more about Zod and that's pretty much it.
LMP wasn't doing much to lure people from Zod to UT either (only Incognito and him were voting him, I expressed sympathy for the case but preference for Zod, everyone else seemed rather uninterested in lynching him.. so how was it gonna happen?)

I was expecting some comment about the case i laid out against LMP from you.

Well I'm not his lawyer, so I don't really see the point in replying point by point. I read everything you write and I consider everything you write.

You did mention UT only a few times and when you did it was with a "he sort of might be somewhat scummy" tone.
I agree that LMP isn't properly acknowledging that, but at the same time you're blowing it up into you having significant suspicion of UT which doesn't seem to be the case to me either. As an example, you never say anything about LMP's/Incognito's case on UT.

I was ISOing everyone still alive.

I understand that. What I'm saying is, that if it was THAT obvious I'm town, why didn't you come to that conclusion before ISOing me?

I think when I pursued him on D1, he responded pretty agressively

Where?

[TDC]

That looks like town behavior to you?

No. I suppose you're aiming at how we had this huge discussion about one thing and why I drop this more readily. The difference is that I feel that he has answered as much as he's going to answer (that yes, he did that, and that it was because he concentrates on one suspect at a time), which while not particularly pleasing as an answer is what I'd consider an answer to the question I asked.
In contrast when I asked you what I thought was a fairly straightforward question, we needed ages to get down to you actually answering it in a way that allowed me to give the topic rest, which may have been your fault or my fault, but that's just how it was.
I see no point in asking him the same question again and again.

Do you believe misrepresentations like those, as well as the UT statements, are indicative of town?

No, but again, I think it is not that harsh of a misrepresentation in that your UT statements - while existing - didn't seem particularly consequential until D3.
I do expect him to reply to 514, yes. (Yes LMP, I want you to respond to it.. why should I do your job?)

Btw, i guess i'll assume that you don't want to give a summary of where you stand? Which is fine... but you haven't said anything when i have asked, so i dont know if you are ignoring me, or if you missed it, or what... and i dont want to keep repeating myself.

Sorry I meant to reply to that earlier, but always forgot about it. No I won't post a case on you, because neither is there anyone whom I need to convince about anything nor is there anyone I could convince about anything, so that just seems like it would waste a lot of time.

[TDC]

Well I don't want to open that can of worms again, but it is not just a gut feeling. I project what I would do if I had been UT's buddy, and it looks pretty much like what you did. That is I think your play makes sense from that perspective.
At the same time, UT's iso itself points more towards LMP than towards you in that you just seem to be one of several players he doesn't say much about while he seems to go out of his way not to get into a big fight with LMP, but readily enters it with Incognito.

As for discounting UT, what exactly is left of LMP's play then? Pretty much just today. And yes, I'm hardly content with how he leaned back for quite a while when you and I discussed to "QFT" my posts and yes, he has been stretching the facts somewhat. I want you to understand that you are not a saint in this regard either when you give things the "TDC approved"-seal when I made a much weaker statement about them. It is probably a somewhat natural thing to do (remember when you said me asking about your interpretations about some of UT's posts didn't make any sense because everybody would just post the answer that would fit their case best rather than what they genuinely thought? How's this different?) I would give you that you have been somewhat less guilty on that front.

Anyway, you may remember that LMP iso'd UT yesterday and came to the conclusion that "I seriously don't know how anyone could read his ISO and conclude he isn't scum. Based on my read, the two most likely buddies are Taz and TDC. Taz will be getting my next ISO."
Would you mind doing the same and see whether you can find anything that supports the LMP-bus thesis that I haven't so far? Rereading lynched scum is always a good idea, and I wonder a bit why you didn't bother doing that so far (both when you were still undecided between him and me, and to convince me of the bus).

[TDC]

I think when I pursued him on D1, he responded pretty agressively

Where?

Still waiting for an answer to my question from UT.

ABR is at L-1 now, correct? I'm willing to hammer after the claim.

I answered your question in post 111.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible. Vote: untrod tripod

Does that post explain why you think I'm scum? Because I made what you considered a wishy-washy post at the beginning of the game? I've taken a stand since then (because I saw something I thought was scummy) and you're still on my case about...umm...what are you on my case about, exactly? Saying at the beginning of the game that I don't want to make a call on someone's alignment that early is...scummy? Maybe no one else is agreeing with you on this because it's nonsensical and is starting to look like tunneling.

Well I don't think TDC is scum, so I'm not going to lynch him. I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR. You honestly think I should hammer someone I don't think is scum just because of the VT claim? I'm not doing that.

I don't understand this post. I answered your question, what more do you want from me? Why do you think I'm scum?

So what you're saying is: I don't think TDC is scum. I think UT is scum but no one agrees with me. Therefore I am willing to hammer ABR. Does that mean that ABR is your second biggest scum suspect after me? I mean, after all, I made a wishy washy post that you didn't like and he tried to hammer the replacement before he got a chance to post anything. That makes sense, right?

How is that aggressive? A bit belittling perhaps. Certainly not expressing the slightest amount of suspicion though.

I disagree that my play is "leaned back". I've been engaged on everything we've been discussing today.

As an example, you went five days without posting at all after your iso #56 ("Everything I would say in this back and forth argument has already been said by TDC."), and when you do come around to posting again you answer a few questions I had but say nothing about podium.

--

I understand that. What I'm saying is, that if it was THAT obvious I'm town, why didn't you come to that conclusion before ISOing me?

[TDC]

I already answered. that. I was ISOing everyone, I already had a solid town read on you, but I was ISOing everyone.

You had literally just said that your UT-iso meant Taz and I were his most likely partners.

And, 5 days went by because podium and I had back and forthed about all we could without your input. What exactly did you want from us?

Uh no, this was much earlier than that. podium and I produced about a page of postings within that period.

[TDC]

Most likely partners doesn't mean I have a scum read on you. If you don't understand the logic of that, I'm not sure how to explain it.

Is there anything you can point me to that remotely hints at you having a "solid town read" on me before you iso'd me?

Doesn't the total distancing from UT and podium count as much as the buddying from UT to me?

What "total distancing"? You've said yourself that UT's iso doesn't really point towards podium and podium hasn't said much about UT.

[TDC]

podium:

Would you mind doing the same and see whether you can find anything that supports the LMP-bus thesis that I haven't so far? Rereading lynched scum is always a good idea, and I wonder a bit why you didn't bother doing that so far (both when you were still undecided between him and me, and to convince me of the bus).

[TDC]

What would've been so bad about the only claimed vanilla townie being nightkilled?

[TDC]

And it doesn't even make sense when applied to me, because I just wasn't going to get nightkilled.

[TDC]

Well actually I asked you to reread UT himself and what he had to say about LMP, not the other way around.

In other news, I will have limited access until Sunday, but rest assured I will read everything either of you posts.

[TDC]

In addition, would you mind elaborating what you hoped to achieve with this:

I guess i'll go ahead and reveal now that earlier when i dropped that little note that i was leaning UT/TDC, it was a ploy. I was more susp. of LMP and wanted to see what kind of reaction that would illicit. I wasn't expecting all this discussion to follow... actually i thought day would have ended by now... anyway, i figured i might as well put it out here now, since we're having a big discussion.

Whose reaction where you looking for? What kind of reaction would've meant what?

[TDC]

Any final words?

[TDC]

Oh well.

vote LMP

[TDC]

I really think ABR's hammer on me should've counted, by the way.

[TDC]

how close was it, and what made you change your mind?

Well let's say I was more sure that I wanted to vote him than I was that he would really flip scum. Maybe 2-1.
It mostly came down to late D3 and D4. I liked that you were willing to antagonize me, I think scum tend to be more cautious in these kind of situations. I've already mentioned how LMP QFTing my posts early in the day was bothering me and the increased frequency of AtE made him sound more and more desperate.
I reread late D3 a few times while I was gone and another factor was LMP's stance on Taz. It seemed to be a logical progression while it happened, but rereading it, it made less and less sense every time. It just didn't feel as if we actually convinced him that Taz was probably town, he just dropped him when it was obvious neither of us was going to lynch him.

For what it's worth (and I say this in full conscience that I often don't do this myself either), I still think it wouldn't hurt your town play if you included a bit more reasoning when you post significant things, even if you think everything you say is obvious or a repetition of what someone else said. I mean, there's not really a downside other than increased keyboard wear to it, right?

would have killed him and taken my chances with Taz.

Meh, if he tracks you or podium he knows you're scum and I don't really see podium going for Taz. If he tracks me, there's more of a chance of course, but I think he actually said at some point that it would be a great mystery to him if you weren't UT's buddy..

[TDC]

Oh wait, you were a RB, so he wouldn't have had a result anyway. Guess we'd have to hear from Taz for that one then.