Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[Far_Cry]

/confirm.

[Far_Cry]

Ah, greeting fellow a$$s. We have had quite a lot random bs talk.

Because I have come kind of late to the game, I will skip doing a random vote.

Greetings,

Oddly enough, thanks to the newbie queue I am well aware that DH's vote is true RVS sillyness and doesn't help the town at all.
Nexus, however, appears to have solid reasons for his vote - though I think it is anti-town not to reveal them at this point.

Vote: singersinger

Bandwagons are win.

Wait, what? You can't possibly be serious with that Nexus line. He clearly had no actual reasons for a vote.

And while I understand that your second post was a joke, I can also see how it might not have been taken as such.

Cool that you quickly jump wagons, though. Of course, it doesn't really matter at this early stage. Perhaps I'll wait for the others before doing anything else.

In my humble opinion, the insinuations in this paragraph are rather uncalled for. He was switching from an extremely not serious wagon to a more serious one. Not too suspicious in and of itself.

Now, I believe you are taking things maybe a little too seriously. Realize it's kind of early in the game to figure whether something is a joke or not. But I do give kudos for drumming up some conversation, to try to take us out of RVS.

[Far_Cry]

But to add something extra, I warn you guys against going out of RVS too soon. Not everybody has even posted yet. So before you start murdering each other, I suggest waiting (so there will be more people to murder, right?)

[Far_Cry]

VOTE: DemonHybrid most people who have played with me before know why

Sorry, I haven't played with you before, so why why why?!

I beg to ask the same question.

[Far_Cry]

Yeah, not really. Nexus's comments sound joking to me, but the case against Nexus seems to be with misguided protown intentions, not deliberate misrep. Still RVS in my book.

Yes and no. Not everybody has contributed yet, so you can still say we are in RVS. Plus, we don't have any really serious cases against anyone. But the case against Nexus is one to look. I refrain from further comment until we get more people to post.

[Far_Cry]

@Far_Cry - why are you posting so much in order to say that you're not saying anything?
Seriously - thus far you've commented that redtail is taking things a touch too seriously (???)
You also commented how we shouldn't get out of the RVS just yet (because, yknow, RVS is *so* pure and valuable if people aren't expressing opinions and votes).
Finally you've just kept saying how we need more people to weigh in all while not weighing in on anyone or putting out a single vote (despite believing RVS is worthwhile)

Unvote: Nexus
Vote: Far_Cry

Dissonance much?

@jimfinn - It is incredibly funny and amusing that you have continued your capital letter meta. I had a great and joyous belly laugh. We can now move on? Excellent.
What is your read on my town tell on Devon? Do you agree, disagree, and why is this?

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

Also, how can I weigh in on anybody at the moment? What is there to get a read on? That's why I ask for more conversation.

Finally, please clearly explain to me your thoughts on RVS. What does it mean to you?

[Far_Cry]

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

A lot can be accomplished in 4 posts, or nothing can be accomplished in them. I will say your 4 posts of nothing have indeed accomplished something - a vote, from me, with love.

OK, I take back what I said before. I agree that my last posts were pretty useless. And I also agree that something could be said in 4 posts.

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

Also, how can I weigh in on anybody at the moment? What is there to get a read on? That's why I ask for more conversation.

But, oh man, how can those people offer conversation if you won't talk more with general conversation? Probably they'll post next telling you that you need to talk more so they can then weigh in on stuff once you talk.

Again. Dissonance.

Please explain why you find this "dissonance."

Finally, please clearly explain to me your thoughts on RVS. What does it mean to you?

It is an exciting period of the game where people both claim it's important and shouldn't/can't be skipped because of valuable scumtells that happen in it...
...and then decry me for taking things "too seriously" because it's "just RVS".

I have a different stance to what the RVS stage is. I don't believe it will have "valuable scumtells" as you say always. I believe RVS is used to drum up conversation, and then, in that conversation, is when scumtells can be found. Therefore, I don't take RVS too seriously, and commend those who can take us out of it.

Sorry, it's kinda late hear, and I have had a busy day (sister's b-day), so I can't do all too much analysis. I don't think much can be expected tomorrow. I will try to get some analysis up ASAP, when I have time.

[Far_Cry]

Please explain why you find this "dissonance."

To sum it up shortly - you are attempting to help the pro town act of 'having more people talk' so that there will be opinions to be assessed.
To accomplish this you are specifically not talking or saying anything of note.

So, either you believe it is pro town to talk more and are choosing not to do what you believe is pro town.
Or you do not believe it is pro town and are simply saying these things because you think other people consider them pro town.

Saying one thing while doing another = dissonance.

I never said anything about talking being pro-town or anti-town. I admit I was wrong for telling people that they should talk more, and not talk myself.

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

Could you be any more gentle handed with this question?

His hypocrisy is a scum tell because hypocrisy suggests the possibility of lies and lies shouldn't be coming from town in the RVS.
My vote is on him because it's the biggest scumtell I've seen thus far and if I had to choose right now who would be lynched I'd choose him.

Why are you concerned with the "hostility" towards Far_Cry? I don't recall you being worried when I was voting Nexus - did you consider that a less "hostile" vote? Why/why not?

This is bullshit. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me. And this:

If I had to choose right now who would be lynched, I'd choose him."

Tell me Sherlock, how can you lynch me for some hyprcrisy and faint scum-tells? Not everybody has posted, and you say you would want to lynch me on the spot? I'm not sure what to make of that, but the least I can is that is very ANTI-TOWN.

@Far_Cry: Too seriously? Indeed, I think you aren't taking them seriously enough (or rather, weren't when you said that). I read those votes as serious votes, not random, and reacted as such. How seriously would you like me to be? And while I'm glad that you understand the dissonance pointed out by Thor,

Also, did I read that right? You wanted us to

stay

in RVS?

Why did you consider those votes serious?

And I never said I wanted to stay in RVS. I said we should wait for more people to post before we jump to conclusions.

Yes and no. Not everybody has contributed yet, so you can still say we are in RVS. Plus, we don't have any really serious cases against anyone. But the case against Nexus is one to look. I refrain from further comment until we get more people to post."

I can't disagree more. I don't consider leaving RVS as a discrete action; it's more of a continuous transition. But at the time serious accusations had certainly been thrown around, and although they were early game with not too much to go on, they merited examination. I understand wanting to hear from everyone; that doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen here that might call for a vote.

OK, I agree with you that things that happen in RVS can warrant a vote or two. But when I said "serious accusations," I meant that perhaps these accusations are sincere, but they do not have enough to build a case on. There simply isn't enough facts.

[Far_Cry]

OK; here are some of questions I have to ask certain people (after which I can hopefully make a judgement call):

Andrigan- What are your general thoughts? Anything that looks interesting to you?

Jack- Reasons for your delay in saying anything?

Nexus- You said before that jumping wagons "doesn't really matter at this early stage (RVS)." It seems that you have a carefree attitude towards the RVS. Why do you think it's not an offense to jump wagons, even in the RVS? And please explain your decision for staying quiet. Do you want everybody to fall on me, hoping that you could quietly slip away? If I'm not wrong, this could be your first game as scum.

nhammen- Who do you find more suspicious: Thor, Nexus, or me?

Thor665- Tell me: why are you town? Why aren't you scum? Who suspicious are you of Andrigan's comments, or are you not at all?

[Far_Cry]

Thor665- Tell me: why are you town? Why aren't you scum? Who suspicious are you of Andrigan's comments, or are you not at all?

I am town because when the mod randomly determined roles I came up as town.
I'm not scum because I'm town.
I'm actually not sure exactly what you're asking about Andrigan's comments. Is it *how* suspicious am I of them?
I dunno, I never really classify my suspicions that well. I'll call it a suspicion level pineapple, which is more then tangelo and less then kumquat
I do find his differing reactions to your and Nexus' wagons odd, which is why I'm asking him questions about them, depending on his answers I'll adjust my feelings, I have no solid answer yet - why are you wondering about how much I do or don't suspect Andrigan?

Yes sorry, I wrote a little too fast. I meant to to write how, not who.

Lol the tangelo and kumquat comment

I asked whether you suspect Andrigan because you seemed suspicious of his comments. Also, I just wanted an opinion on his comments,

and you seem like a smart and educated person, who can answer questions thoughtfully but with conviction, with a touch of humor.

[Far_Cry]

@Far_Cry: the Thor post that I quoted I read as being partially serious and partially in jest. The Nexus line I certainly read as serious, which is why I questioned it (I wanted to know how much he meant it vs. joking).

Also, I didn't realize that I left that hanging comma. Wow. Sorry about that.

This is bullshit. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me.

Hypocrisy is promoting or preaching a certain quality but failing to live up to it yourself. You encouraged active discussion, yet failed initially to participate (of course, your not-participating led to you participating quite a bit). It's a kind of lie, but subtler.

I fully understand what hyporcrisy is, and it's reasonable to accuse me of it. But it shouldn't warrant such a level of suspicion as to have me lynched on the spot (as Thor has stated, saying that if he could, he would lynch me now.)

Now personally, I don't find Thor inherently scummy. I agree with Andrigan that he is probably doing some sneaky scum hunting. He is an "interesting character," however, and he deserves attention.

Right now, I'd really like to hear from more people. Jack and Singersigner should be able to bring something creative to the table. I'd also like to hear some more from nhammen and jimfinn. Finally, Nexus better speak up, because I am becoming more suspicious of him by the second. It sounds like he is doing some active lurking (though I don't know if he might have some time restrictions.)

[Far_Cry]

Oh, and I forgot that DemonHybrid needs to get with the program and talk more, too.

[Far_Cry]

I know, apologies on that.

6 games, homework and half-asleepness does not a good combination make.

I'll read over this Far Cry stuff. Nexus is probably still my #1 scumread, but let me do a quick readthrough.

6 games? I feel like I'm in deep shit when I have 4.... plus you have homework. This is off-topic, but what college to you go to?

[Far_Cry]

I fully understand what hyporcrisy is, and it's reasonable to accuse me of it.

This is bullSmurf. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me.

So was my accusation reasonable or was it not reasonable?
When you mix anger with appeasement they sort of cancel each other out.

But it shouldn't warrant such a level of suspicion as to have me lynched on the spot (as Thor has stated, saying that if he could, he would lynch me now.)

Any vote not made with that belief behind it is a vote that isn't worth the bytes it is generated upon.
Also, I said 'if I had to', not 'if I could'. Bit of a difference is to be found therein.
I'm starting to be more of a 'if I could' mentality on this point though.

I'm also fascinated by how many people are now excited about the Nexus wagon because now he's being quiet. Wh-what? Wasn't I running him up on "over-defensiveness" or something? This is silly. The next person who mentions how it's suspicious that Nexus is being quiet should be obligated to actually also explain the case/questions that Nexus is avoiding by being quiet.

Your accusation was reasonable, you just can't say that you could lynch me on the spot for my hyprocrisy. Besides, I've tried to get some thoughts in, so I don't see it as hyporitical anymore.

Jack hasn't done anything scummy so far. Sure, it's weird, but that's Jack's playstyle and is completely null.

Agreed. I don't see how anyone can go on Jack's case when he hasn't said anything yet. It's his playstyle, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

nhammen- Who do you find more suspicious: Thor, Nexus, or me?

This early in the game, it is tough to find the difference between levels of scummy. Thor's attacks remind me of my play as scum in my most recent game. But he has also been the most active participant, and I can easily see pro-Town motivation for his play, so there is no way I am voting him. Nexus' comment on Thor's jumping but not on Demon's is odd, but not scummy by itself. I would have liked an answer to my comment though. He seems to have completely ignored it. You have been playing in a very newb way, but you have over a year on site. Something's not adding up. But I would say that you are the most scummy of the three, by a hair, or by epsilon, or whatever you prefer.

Ok, reasonable ideas about Thor, and I'd see how his actions could be interpreted as town or scummy. But tell me, why do you find my play "newbie?"

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player.

What makes you think his current playstyle is more earnest town and less dodgy scum?

Because in his first game, I saw the same behavior as town. I don't think it's indicative of scum.

Oh really? That sounds likes you are pretty protective of him. Noob or not, good playstyle or not, there is no execuse for not defending yourself in the face of accusations. This makes me suspicious of you.

You're being silly.
Vote for Far_Cry.

Why, because I'm a hyprocite? You can't really call me that anymore, so please give us a REAL reason to vote for me.

[Far_Cry]

@Far_Cry - what you're using as your current hypocrite defense is that you were hypocritical but aren't now, and that doesn't wash.

That's like saying - I shot someone yesterday but you can't arrest me because I'm not shooting anyone today.

Current actions don't remove past actions. I haven't seen anything from you that looks like scumhunting or townish behavior, so I'm perfectly fine still voting you. I'm asking others to vote you because that's how the game is played. Clearly though, either I'm really wrong about this, or all those people not voting yet are better at the game and need to show me how to play. (I'm pretty full of myself though, so I think the fault lies with them, natch)

Ok, I'm sorry that I didn't quite say that right. You asked me to contribute more because I had asked others to contribute (and had not been doing so myself.) I have done my best now to add something to the game. So do you continue to blast me for something I have already remedied?

And I can't scumhunt yet because it's difficult to get reads on people. That's why I ask for more talk.

[Far_Cry]

I'm not sure yet what to think of DemonHybrid's argument against redtail. I agree with him that it's quite pointless for redtail to also attack me for my hyprocrisy, as its somewhat redundant. However, you seem to be making a big deal over it. Why does this one action make him so inherently scummy?

@singersigner: Not understanding what you said about "...you have to give the a legitimate reason for why it's ok for YOU to do something, and not them." And what exactly do you mean by this?

And your comments on Nexus: I never said he MUST be scum. You need to stop putting words in my mouth. I said in SUSPICIOUS of him, but have not quite said he is scum. That's why I refrained from putting out a vote. I'm not sure what to think of Nexus quite yet. And how can I figure out his meta when he's played only one game? Not only that, he played that game as town, and might just have a completely different style playing as non-townie. Therefore, I see no reason why I had to look at his meta.

[Far_Cry]

Checking in to say I'm here, working on developing reads, but I'm just getting the feeling everyone else is as confused as I am so far, and I can't say I feel that confident in any of my reads so far. I'm slightly suspicious of redtail for his refusal to vote with his case, yet seeming relatively sure of it, but that's about it.

K. Please, keep us updated on your thoughts.

[Far_Cry]

@jimfinn - if you're uncertain of your reads you ought to sheep me and vote Far_Cry, I'm a brilliant and unique snowflake.

Wow, you really pushing the envelope. You are telling everybody to vote for me. Why is that?

[Far_Cry]

I'm not sure yet what to think of DemonHybrid's argument against redtail. I agree with him that it's quite pointless for redtail to also attack me for my hyprocrisy, as its somewhat redundant. However, you seem to be making a big deal over it. Why does this one action make him so inherently scummy?

@singersigner: Not understanding what you said about "...you have to give the a legitimate reason for why it's ok for YOU to do something, and not them." And what exactly do you mean by this?

And your comments on Nexus: I never said he MUST be scum. You need to stop putting words in my mouth. I said in SUSPICIOUS of him, but have not quite said he is scum. That's why I refrained from putting out a vote. I'm not sure what to think of Nexus quite yet. And how can I figure out his meta when he's played only one game? Not only that, he played that game as town, and might just have a completely different style playing as non-townie. Therefore, I see no reason why I had to look at his meta.

You should probably look up the definition of hypocrite, then. As far as Nexus goes...I'm saying it doesn't look like he has a completely different style of playing as anything. It's just what he's been doing so far on this site. What you jumped down his throat for was a null tell because it's becoming a pattern.

So has he only played one other game (with you on the site.)

Thor, stop being dumb. I see no reason why there needs to be a wagon before everyone's contributed, unless there's been an absolute, 100% scumslip, which Far_Cry has not done IMO. And don't recruit me like a little weasel. You're starting to remind me of a player I reeeaaally don't like.

Yes, that's true, but you must admit it's kind of funny.

Perhaps I am being dumb.

But I do think running up a wagon will actually generate this magical contribution from everyone you're hoping for. Everyone in the game has posted at least once, what sort of contribution do you expect them to have? If it's votes well...let's get some vote movement. And if it's commenting on actions well...let's give them something to comment on.

How do you suggest we get the other players more involved?

I think the players themselves need to get themselves involved. It's up to them whether or not they actually want to contribute. I don't see much we can do.

And as for getting a case on everyone, I'm still doing some analysis. Sorry for my indecisiveness; I'm just having difficulty getting a read on some people.

[Far_Cry]

Just checking in again quickly...since people have been mentioning me or whatever I said earlier. I won't post or make a decision on my vote until Saturday. I have a very long day ahead of me today (gotta pull an all-nighter to study for a quiz, attend 4 classes, meet with a personal trainer, and then perhaps meet with friends to eat dinner or go to a fair). I don't want you guys to think that I either have zero interest or am just ignoring whatever people say lol. This week just hasn't been good for me. If you have any question or want any action from me, you will get an response from me on Saturday.

When you are free on Saturday, I would like to see a town list from you.

And good luck on your quizzes

[Far_Cry]

Hey...Far_Cry...remember that 'hypocrisy' thing from a page or so back?

And as for getting a case on everyone, I'm still doing some analysis. Sorry for my indecisiveness; I'm just having difficulty getting a read on some people.

You're doing it wrong.
When you are free on Saturday, I would like to see a town list from you.
Or a scum list.
Or, y'know, anything.

No. You're just asking him to set up people for NKs and lynch targets during the day. Anyone who posts lists of "least townie to most townie," or anything likewise, will instantly be on my bad side, for doing the work of scum for them.

Not getting you here. This doesn't seem like a great reason for not doing a town list. You wouldn't post "most-townie to least townie." You would just put down your thoughts on every player so far (at least thats my definition of town list.)

I do believe in scum lists/town lists, but not on page 6. Once you get real reads, it's a good idea. If every player in the game makes a list as such, we can use the patterns as flips come through and really learn a lot.

OK, this is a better reason for not doing a town list. I see your point (and agree with it.) So I will withhold on a town list.

[Far_Cry]

I find the level of activity here very disappointing. This game has been going on for 6 days, and we only have 6 pages of posts.

[Far_Cry]

@Thor: If a wagon is so important in your mind, create a new one. Your Far Cry one has clearly stalled.

I've already said I find something scummy and have put down a vote and nobody will respond. I've asked repeatedly for people to follow along and vote and no one has responded. I've asked a couple of different people to put out a vote and promised to follow them if they did, and no one has responded. Trust me, the issue is not with Far_Cry - the issue is deeper then that. either I'm really bad at generating discussion, or we have a bunch of people who don't know how to exit RVS

That said, I'll begrudgingly agree that if I'm frustreated it is still my responsibility to (still) be trying to get these mooks to respond to anything.

@singersinger - were you responding to both posts at once? I don't think you were and your explanation doesn't even claim as such.

DemonHybrid is the biggest wagon, let's lynch him, plurality equates to brilliance. I'll ignore all the reads I had on him thus far and call him obvious scum for wanting to hang onto RVS reasoning. This is a brilliant case and should be respected.

Unvote: Far_Cry
Vote: DemonHybrid

Agreed. A wagon needs to be started, and we need to start talking. VOTE: DemonHybrid

[Far_Cry]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

I'm inclined to say that I believe this claim. However, I will hold off a little before unvoting (waiting for more some more talk. And besides, It would look ridiculous to vote you than unvote a few posts later.)

[Far_Cry]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

I'm inclined to say that I believe this claim. However, I will hold off a little before unvoting (waiting for more some more talk. And besides, It would look ridiculous to vote you than unvote a few posts later.)

First of all, why are you inclined to believe the claim? A Vanilla Townie claim is not a reason in and of itself to unvote. It's simply the most likely thing for a person to be, requires no actual information, and thus is the easiest claim to make. Also, if you believe DH is town, why not just unvote.

I'm not stupid. I know that VT is the easiest claim to make by scum. My vote was a half-hearted one anyways. It was meant to stir up conversation. Therefore, I'm not going to unvote yet (I don't think he's at too much danger at L-2.)

[Far_Cry]

I'm going to theory discuss here based on some of my previous games and on a thread in MD, in light of the recent VT claim. I believe (obviously) that town should be trying to lynch scum first and foremost. However, if a person claims VT on D1 it is generally in the town's best interest to lynch him. The reason for this is that the scum's primary goal is to kill the PRs. If there are 12 players in the game in the form of 3Scum, 3PRs, and 6VTs, and the town lynches a claimed VT, the scum have a 3 in 8 chance of hitting a PR. If the town lynches another person who also flips VT, the scum will not target the first claimed VT and therefore have a 3 in 7 chance of killing a PR.

That said, I think that there is still plenty of time left in this day and we should not lynch DH right now, but if discussion stalls and we feel unable to catch scum with deadline approaching, we should seriously consider returning to his lynch as the lynch to avoid a no-lynch.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

This is a stupid reason to vote for me. Had I not already told everybody that my vote was placed solely for the reason to promote discussion. I have no need to unvote, because the desired result of my decision has not been produced yet.

I find this game pitiful. No wants to do shit, no one wants to say shit. Instead, we are resorting to voting each other for some ridiculous reasons. I have yet to find one good case against anybody, one that's reasonable and makes sense. Here, we have jimfinn, who mind you, has been actively lurking, going out and calling me scum trying to spring up activity. While it is true that I said it would be ridiculous to vote and then unvote so soon (and it would be), he failed to notice that the reason of my vote was just for the sake of actvity, and then goes around and twists the meanings of my actions.

Now I would like you to tell me who's scummier. UNVOTE: DemonHybrid, VOTE: jimfinn

[Far_Cry]

Oops, messed up there with the quote tags. Just take out the second quote because it's repeated.

[Far_Cry]

Wait, so Far_Cryscum is abandoning the DH wagon after I call him out for not unvoting in a continued attempt to look more town, and decides to take revenge by OMGUS voting the person who caused said wagon to fall apart.

It is not an OMGUS vote. I voted for you because your being ridiculous and puposely closing your eyes against the true meanings of my actions.

I am honestly not seeing any substance in the arguments against me. Technically, all I'm seeing is that you guys are voting me for not liking my playstyle. Many of you consistantly ignore things said against you or others, and decide to attack me for the stupidest of reasons. I will most certainly not back down until somebody summarizes my actions, and explains why they are scummy.

[Far_Cry]

Not the same reaction. Far_Cry really tried to fight the argument away, whereas Nexus just sort of disappeared for a while, and then came back when he was called out for backing away.

So, what are you trying to say? Who's more suspicious: me or Nexus?

[Far_Cry]

Oh ya, and what do you think of singer and redtail now?

[Far_Cry]

I would also like to hear from Jack, so I can't disagree with you there. But Devon, I'm curious why exactly you find Far Cry and me suspicious. All you really said was "reasons already mentioned." What specifically are your thoughts.

Agreed. Devon, you can't walk away accusing someone of "reasons already mentioned." Please elaborate.

[Far_Cry]

Wait, what number wagon is this (the wagon Thor)? All of these wagons have been started to "promote discussion," yet we haven't gotten far with that at all.

@nhammen: I will try to reply to your posts tomorrow, when I have more and time and will be thinking better.

[Far_Cry]

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

This is a stupid reason to vote for me. Had I not already told everybody that my vote was placed solely for the reason to promote discussion. I have no need to unvote, because the desired result of my decision has not been produced yet.

I find this game pitiful. No wants to do shit, no one wants to say shit. Instead, we are resorting to voting each other for some ridiculous reasons. I have yet to find one good case against anybody, one that's reasonable and makes sense. Here, we have jimfinn, who mind you, has been actively lurking, going out and calling me scum trying to spring up activity. While it is true that I said it would be ridiculous to vote and then unvote so soon (and it would be), he failed to notice that the reason of my vote was just for the sake of actvity, and then goes around and twists the meanings of my actions.

Now I would like you to tell me who's scummier. UNVOTE: DemonHybrid, VOTE: jimfinn

Except that you specifically stated that the reason you were not unvoting was because "it would look ridiculous". This is what jimfinn's attack is based on. And nowhere have you refuted that this is scummy. Even though you make mention of it in this very post. In fact, you seem to have actively twisted his case to be "because I unvoted". Bad Far_Cry. Bad.

I admit to making a mistake. My ideas of trying to not look ridiculous is wrong. It was also bad that I rage voted jimfinn (so I

unvote

now) But, I don't think it so scummy. True it was something to be suspicious about, but not to outright vote me and attack me. It truly would look ridiculous if I had unvoted so soon, and it has nothing to do with me being town or scum. It would just look ridiculous

He's replacing out. Is there any reason for you to say this?

She's new and was rather embarrassed about replacing out. I know her IRL (she goes to the same college as I do).

Then you can be the one to console her IRL, not make excuses for her here. People replace out all the time. It's not your job to make excuses. To me, it sounds like you're just trying to protect someone. I really don't like this. You're not sitting well with me at all anymore. Thor's responses to my questions have been acceptable, but you're still making excuses for someone who's not even here anymore.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DemonHybrid

So, what happened to me? Am I still scummy, or why are you jumping around?

[Far_Cry]

I admit to making a mistake. My ideas of trying to not look ridiculous is wrong. It was also bad that I rage voted jimfinn (so I unvote now) But, I don't think it so scummy. True it was something to be suspicious about, but not to outright vote me and attack me. It truly would look ridiculous if I had unvoted so soon, and it has nothing to do with me being town or scum. It would just look ridiculous

Oh dear gawd, doesn't anyone know that you only need one VI in Mafia games, and you only need them for about half of Day One?

@Far_Cry - you admit you made a "mistake" that means you think you did something "wrong." In this game that equates to either anti-town or scummy - which means it's "right" for jimfinn to vote you for the wrongdoing, which means it's (once again) "wrong" that you rage voted him for it. This is one winding spiel of nothing that basically amounts to you saying 'yes, what I did was scummy, but I just made two scumtell mistakes one after another, let's move on please.'

Then why aren't you voting for me? I am town who made a scummy looking mistake, and am trying to unravel from it. What am I supposed to do, defend an action that's obviously wrong? Defend a decision based wrongly on emotions?

[Far_Cry]

Ok, I'm back early.

Right: Jack replacing out, after making us wait. I'm not happy about that, but whatever. I'm not convinced he's scum anymore, though.

Thor: Yes, he's acting anti-town, but that doesn't mean he's scummy. I've made that mistake before.

Singer: More aggressive than I've seen her before. As the last time I played with her, she was scum, this means I'm not feeling her as scum today.

DH: I'm undecided on. I think he's a little scummy, and I think his needing to justify Devon was unnecessary, but to vote for him based on that? No.

Far_Cry: Post #235 is an interesting one. It reads to me like a bit of "oh, I made a mistake, I'm trying to rectify it, so leave me be. Which, really, we shouldn't be doing. So no, that doesn't wash with me. Keeping pressure on, and you not making anymore scumslips would prove you're town. Taking pressure off would just make it easier for you.

The others, I don't really have much on.

So yes, I don't really know. I want to see what the replacements have to say. However, I'll

unvote

for now.

There can't be 4 scum in this game, so who looks more scum than the other(s)?

[Far_Cry]

VOTE: singersigner

Reasons why:
1. Regarding the early Far Cry wagon:

I loled at this. Being a hypocrite gives someone every reason to vote for you unless you can give them a legitimate reason for why it's ok for YOU to do something, and not THEM. Which you have yet to do.

Thor, stop being dumb. I see no reason why there needs to be a wagon before everyone's contributed, unless there's been an absolute, 100% scumslip, which Far_Cry has not done IMO.

You clearly thought that Far Cry

was

being a hypocrite, yet you criticized Thor for creating and trying to promulgate a wagon on him. I don't know what kind of "absolute, 100% scumslip" you're looking for on D1.

Later you also produce this gem:

The whole hypocrisy thing... If you're looking for a scum tell in that, you won't find one.

This is a direct contradiction to your previous point of view.

2. The scumlist thing:

No. You're just asking him to set up people for NKs and lynch targets during the day. Anyone who posts lists of "least townie to most townie," or anything likewise, will instantly be on my bad side, for doing the work of scum for them.

This borders on theory discussion, but I find it interesting that you are so quick to judge people that simply disagree with you on this tenet of mafia theory. Especially since, by my count, you are in the minority.

3. You're "case" on Thor. I've said it before and I'll say it again: this case is illegitimate hogwash. I will reprint, in full, the post in which you voted for Thor:

Haha, did you just admit something?

Absolutely - I just admitted to being scum - go ahead and vote me and lets get a wagon started, your evidence is pure and irrefutable.

Point made.

Now.

VOTE: Thor665

What makes you so town? As far as I can tell, all you've been doing is confuse and bugger the shit out of town.

I see no reasoning or proof that Thor is/was "confusing and buggering the shit out of the town." (Here it should be noted that I don't like DH's jump onto this wagon any more than your starting of it)

Whoops!
Here ya go:

What makes you so town?

What makes me so scum?

I see you've dodged this question, and made a point of calling me out assuming I did the same. The difference is, I accidentally overlooked response in responding to other posts. You deliberately didn't answer the question.

As far as I can tell, all you've been doing is confuse and Smurf the Smurf out of town.

How have I done this? Please try to be explicit.

Look at your own ISO. Your posting style is aggressive, and instead of looking for blatantly scummy behavior, you're putting everyone on the defensive for things that may or may not be of any concern...and it's only the first day.

If I had to choose, my best bets would be Thor and Far_Cry...maybe DH, but I dunno.

In your response about Thor dodging the question,

you actually dodge the question

. In addition, your description of scummy behavior is simply a playstyle difference; you don't like Thor's playstyle, and are using it as an excuse for a vote. This case will later be abandoned without any real reasoning given other than "Thor's playstyle is scummy."

4. Your case on DH: amounts to accusing DH of making excuses and defending another player. The problem here (as pointed out by others as well) is that DH's excuses kind of make sense; those would be what I would say in the given situation. It's not really a defense of a scummy player either; it's simply DH explaining why the replacement happened. You don't really explain

why

it's scummy, just like with the Thor case.

I don't like to piggyback or buddy at this point, but this case against singer seems reasonable. You indeed have been quite unclear of your intentions and have contradicted yourself. With the deadline closing in, I will put you at L-1 and VOTE: singersigner[/vote

I think that using ellipses and things like "Ugh" are signs of acting. When you are clear and to the point, I think of you as town. Dunno how I can explain that any more clearly.

If she's not scum, and you apparently don't think me as scum, then who do believe is most suspicious at the moment?

[Far_Cry]

Far_Cry, you messed up your bold tag for your vote. Wanted to let you know.

Saw it. VOTE: singersigner

@ThAdmiral: Honestly, your case against me is quite valid. And I have no way to defend against it. My actions were wrong and scummy, simple as that. I am town, simply put at that. but there's no way to prove that without lynching me.

[Far_Cry]

Herro! I am about to go out in a bit and I have not yet had time to do a detailed reading. I understand that this might draw suspicion on me, and I'm not sure why Andrigan did not roleclaim, but I am a miller.

Interesting. And what's the point of this claim?

I agree with ThAdmiral - pretty much first thing a miller should do when they post is declare. Can't think of an advantage for scum saporovirus to do so at this point in that way. (not sure why DH thinks miller is a smart role to fakeclaim either, millers tend to end up dead prior to lylo)

@ThAdmiral - here's the first game I ever played with Jack. I was too newbie to recognize fully how awesome his play was, and still I was a gushing fanboy to him by the end. (don't much see the point of this question - couldn't you just access his wiki?)

Why is it that by the time people are voting up the Far_Cry wagon I've got a different top suspect? My mafia timing must be way off.

Unvote: DemonHybrid

Barring a really amazing set of coincidences and changing opinions that wagon's just not going to happen for me today. I'll need to go back and look at both of the cases again and see where I'm feeling. Both singersinger and Far_Cry have been pretty scummy but I seem to recall getting a lot of newbie vibes off both of them and I think I was knocking them both down my suspect list because of that. Honestly I've also got to read back just to remind myself of my own case on FC - I can at least remember singersinger's there for insanity which is not an unreasonable Day 1 lynch reason.

@nhamman - are you against the singersinger lynch?

I played like bullshit in the beginning because it was the first mafia game I had played in several months, so I was raw. This is not exactly something to come to my defense, but I'm saying that's why you're getting the newbie vibe on me (because I have been sucking.)

[Far_Cry]

A question for you: where exactly did you learn the strategy of claiming Miller on Day 1?

To be perfectly forthright: I have a friend (real life) who plays on this board but is NOT involved in this game. I asked him, generally, if it's a good idea to claim miller early in a game without giving him many details of the game. He said it was not unusual. I didn't want to explain exactly cuz it sounds sort of sketchy to do so; I should maybe not have put much effort into defending my action.

Well, you seem quite protective and adamant about your claim. Right now I could't really say your're lying. But considering how crazy this game has been, I'm not quite ready to believe anything.

If this results in modkill, I'm really sorry, guyz

I don't think it should (at least I wouldn't if I were mod). But I'm not sure about how strict Chevre is. If you say you asked only for general playing advice (on claiming miller), I think you should be fine.

[Far_Cry]

VOTE: far_cry my vote was on you at the end of the day, and the flips only strengthen that opinion.

That's cool. Now link me to singer.

Deductive scum hunting:

Singer had such a weak case against thor. Could be distancing. Thor's hammer (lol) could also be bus to look better today...but I doubt it. While it is possible to theorize that Thor and singer were distancing themselves with their argument while not truly wanting either lynched occams razor suggests that thor is town.

Demonhybrid had a weird relationship with singer. Will have to look in to this further. However this post:

Unvote, Vote: singersigner

Thor put it quite nicely. I still find Thor scummy, but you just pulled ahead in the lead.

makes me lean towards scum as this is a farily weak vote post and could easily be a disguise for opportunistic bussing, however this post:

Far_Cry, you messed up your bold tag for your vote. Wanted to let you know.

has me leaning towards town for DH. I'm not sure a fellow mafiate would be as keen to point this out given that it put singer to -1.
Overall leaning town due to the relative earliness of the vote on singer and the overall support of the singer wagon.

Redtail is most likely town as he made a good case against singer that was instrumental in her lynch.

I believe saporovirus' miller claim, so town.

nhammen - singer said: "Nhammen looks to me to be the most towny since he's been level-headed, clear/concise, and has asked good scum-hunting questions". There are 2 reasons why I think this means nhammen is more likely town: 1) given that most of nhammens "good scum-hunting questions" were indeed directed at singer this would indicate that this statement is true, 2) if nhammen was scum it would go against the trend/usual-play of "put your fellow mafiates in the middle" when it comes to mafia making most likely town/scum lists.

That leaves:
Far_Cry - bad day 1 play
jimfinn - lurking
Nexus - disappeared

Given jimfinns seemingly miraculous reappearance at the beginning of day 2 after a week long absence, and his apparent desire to eschew discussion in favour of a quick-lynch, I will...

vote: jimfinn

Hey this is some good analysis. Tell me jimfinn, why do you decide to come back and wagon me when you were inactive for a large part of D1? What, am I an easy lynch for you and your scum buddy?

[Far_Cry]

Looking through Far_Cry's iso: most of his time is spent in defending himself. He made a bit of a case against redtail earlier, but other than that, his contributions have been "Oh I'm not scum though I look ever so scummy," and "I am suspicious of YOU for starting a wagon against me even though I look ever so scummy." This could just be bad play as he claims, but hmmm. I'm not sure I have specific comments on his relationship with singer- she doesn't want to vote for him when Thor says she should, then she votes for him when he votes for Thor because it is OMGUSy, then she unvotes after a while. That's pretty much the only evidence I see, but I could easily be missing something.

Ok, so how much do you believe that singer and I are scum buddies? What about a singer-nexus partnership? That seems more plausible to me (and throw jimfinn in there.)

Hey this is some good analysis. Tell me jimfinn, why do you decide to come back and wagon me when you were inactive for a large part of D1? What, am I an easy lynch for you and your scum buddy?

"Hey, this is good analysis cuz you voted for the guy that wants to get me. I am a poor little goofy baby, please don't vote for me."

Oooh, aren't you soooo cute? Why the fuck are you not voting for me?

[Far_Cry]

I hope to do a town list shortly (when I have time.) I think I need to sort and organize my thoughts out so I can think more clearly.

When I meant "he" made a valid point, I meant jimfinn. He isn't trying to speedlynch, or else he'd be tunneling the fuck out of you, FarCry.

Not necessarily so. I wouldn't be too hasty in making such assumptions.

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

BTW, I don't like this post. You're supposed to be sure of your vote. Why are you speculating that I'm might be town with a vote on me? Makes no sense.

[Far_Cry]

Because you aren't confirmed scum.

Weak attempt to push suspicion on me.

I'm not pushing suspicion on you. Stop being paranoid. I'm only questioning your actions.

Far Cry is acting like an ass...

I'm really sorry if I've been acting like a jackass as of late (too many long days.) I'll try my best to remedy that.

[Far_Cry]

Town list:

saporovirus

: I'm going to begin by looking at your play thus far without looking at your claim. You have maintained a pretty neutral stance for the short time you have been with us. You have attacked me, more because of my bad play than for my scumminess (proven by looking at this post:

Looking through Far_Cry's iso: most of his time is spent in defending himself. He made a bit of a case against redtail earlier, but other than that, his contributions have been "Oh I'm not scum though I look ever so scummy," and "I am suspicious of YOU for starting a wagon against me even though I look ever so scummy." This could just be bad play as he claims, but hmmm. I'm not sure I have specific comments on his relationship with singer- she doesn't want to vote for him when Thor says she should, then she votes for him when he votes for Thor because it is OMGUSy, then she unvotes after a while. That's pretty much the only evidence I see, but I could easily be missing something.

... where you note my bad play but don't consider it necessarily scummy.) Then, you go on to attack Nexus:

I don't really know what Nexus is up to; he appeared out of the woodwork to say I DISAVOW ALL TIES TO THAT HORRIBLE SINGER WOMAN without contributing much else.

... which is a valid point. From you play thus far (not looking at your claim), I conclude that you are town. It looks like you truly are trying to find scum. We are all waiting on your jimfinn iso.

However, your miller claim is something interesting. Right off the bat, with your first post, you claim miller, which is surprising. I'm not sure what to think of it. You could really be a newbie following good advice and claiming miller. The thing that troubles me however, is how quickly ThAdmiral wrote off the claim with this post:

I agree with early miller claims. It's what I do.

... and then Thor goes on to quickly agree with him. This is just a hunch, but it's quite possible that someone like ThAdmiral or Thor told sapo to claim on purpose, and then go on and say that some outside friend told him that it was a good idea. This is however somewhat a stretch, and since there are better cases to pursue, I'm going to leave it at that.

ThAdmiral

: You have acted pretty level-headed, and I've been liking your play thus far. You have made valid contributions and haven't done much to arouse suspicion. There is your defense of sapo's role claim, but as stated above, the case doesn't have much substance to pursue, so I believe you are most likely town.

Thor

: You have been all over the place this game: with votes on singer, jimfinn, DH, Nexus, and me. Honestly, the thing that makes you look town are your votes on singer:

singersinger - questions, she doesn't notice them because she doesn't read, or she thinks she can dodge them. See quoted text below for questions I'd still like answered.

Unvote: DemonHybrid
Vote: singersinger

Hopefully you'll notice stuff now.

@singersinger

1. I can't tell if you're crazy or obtuse. Let's go with this - I'm town because my role PM proves that this is so - show me evidence to the contrary or go away.
2. So I'm being aggressive about things (or as I call them scumtells) and I'm making people get defensive (or as I call it, making them respond so I can get scum reads on them) Congratulations, you have discovered that my playstyle is more aggressive then yours!

How is this confusing town?
How is aggressiveness more likely to be done by scum then town?

Your list of scum suspects is really fascinating;
Thor
Far_Cry
DH

You...ah...have sort of noticed that amongst all of my aggressive attempts to confuse town that I've sort of championed both of the other lynches on your list, haven't you? What's your case on each of the other two - I want to see how it's different then mine - go!

Still wouldn't mind lynching DH either.
Someone in that mix is probably scum.
singersinger's case on DH as currently presented is megaweak.
DH's case on me is still really excited about my sarcasm and "anti-town" behavior. Still hasn't explained how sarcasm = scum or how I'm being anti-town other then being sarcastic.
His other two points just show an inability to understand the strategy of what was happening around my votes - null to obtuse read on that.

More thoughts on singersinger once she cobbles together an answer to my questions.


@DH - questions or you - what is (specifically) my anti-town behavior and how does it hurt town?
Also, sarcasm as a scumtell? How does that work? <---I may or may not be being sarcastic with this question.

saporovirus has managed to post 4 times since his reveal in order to...discuss his reveal more. Unimpressed.
Town is sort of slowly chugging in on the singersinger lynch and is doing so in sort of an odd way, not sure on read.
Looking back on singersinger and Far_Cry I find them both pretty skeevy and VI, as such I don't particularly have a preference which dies today, and plus I tend to find extensions anti-town.

@nhamman - but if you want to lynch singersinger for being most scummy why would you try to get an extension so people could lynch Far_Cry?


No whammy, no whammy...

Vote: singersinger

In my eyes, this doesn't look like scum bussing his partner. It does somehow worry me that you have voted a quite a few people, but it seems to me that your are just aggressive town who likes to jump the gun and vote people just because you have a few suspicions on them. Plus, the other thing that clears your name is the way you responded and attacked my hyprocrisy early in D1. A scum player probably would have tunneled the shit out of me, and you didn't pursue me for the rest of D1 like scum probably would have. So all in all, you are town in my eyes.

redtail

: I would really like it if you posted more. I would like to hear your thoughts on the game thus far. Obviously, you beating home my hypocrisy was somewhat unnecessary considering that Thor had already addressed the situation. However, that was some time ago, and looking at your in the later parts of D1, you seem fine to me. And this post:

VOTE: singersigner

Reasons why:
1. Regarding the early Far Cry wagon:

I loled at this. Being a hypocrite gives someone every reason to vote for you unless you can give them a legitimate reason for why it's ok for YOU to do something, and not THEM. Which you have yet to do.

Thor, stop being dumb. I see no reason why there needs to be a wagon before everyone's contributed, unless there's been an absolute, 100% scumslip, which Far_Cry has not done IMO.

You clearly thought that Far Cry

was

being a hypocrite, yet you criticized Thor for creating and trying to promulgate a wagon on him. I don't know what kind of "absolute, 100% scumslip" you're looking for on D1.

Later you also produce this gem:

The whole hypocrisy thing... If you're looking for a scum tell in that, you won't find one.

This is a direct contradiction to your previous point of view.

2. The scumlist thing:

No. You're just asking him to set up people for NKs and lynch targets during the day. Anyone who posts lists of "least townie to most townie," or anything likewise, will instantly be on my bad side, for doing the work of scum for them.

This borders on theory discussion, but I find it interesting that you are so quick to judge people that simply disagree with you on this tenet of mafia theory. Especially since, by my count, you are in the minority.

3. You're "case" on Thor. I've said it before and I'll say it again: this case is illegitimate hogwash. I will reprint, in full, the post in which you voted for Thor:

Haha, did you just admit something?

Absolutely - I just admitted to being scum - go ahead and vote me and lets get a wagon started, your evidence is pure and irrefutable.

Point made.

Now.

VOTE: Thor665

What makes you so town? As far as I can tell, all you've been doing is confuse and bugger the shit out of town.

I see no reasoning or proof that Thor is/was "confusing and buggering the shit out of the town." (Here it should be noted that I don't like DH's jump onto this wagon any more than your starting of it)

Whoops!
Here ya go:

What makes you so town?

What makes me so scum?

I see you've dodged this question, and made a point of calling me out assuming I did the same. The difference is, I accidentally overlooked response in responding to other posts. You deliberately didn't answer the question.

As far as I can tell, all you've been doing is confuse and Smurf the Smurf out of town.

How have I done this? Please try to be explicit.

Look at your own ISO. Your posting style is aggressive, and instead of looking for blatantly scummy behavior, you're putting everyone on the defensive for things that may or may not be of any concern...and it's only the first day.

If I had to choose, my best bets would be Thor and Far_Cry...maybe DH, but I dunno.

In your response about Thor dodging the question,

you actually dodge the question

. In addition, your description of scummy behavior is simply a playstyle difference; you don't like Thor's playstyle, and are using it as an excuse for a vote. This case will later be abandoned without any real reasoning given other than "Thor's playstyle is scummy."

4. Your case on DH: amounts to accusing DH of making excuses and defending another player. The problem here (as pointed out by others as well) is that DH's excuses kind of make sense; those would be what I would say in the given situation. It's not really a defense of a scummy player either; it's simply DH explaining why the replacement happened. You don't really explain

why

it's scummy, just like with the Thor case.

... as with the case with Thor, doesn't look like scum bussing his partner. That post's somewhat long analysis is not something I would expect to come from scum. So overall, you play in the latter parts of D1 look townish to me, though I'm not yet coming to conclusions with you since you haven't posted at all in D2. I'm eagerly awaiting your thoughts.

nhammen

: As with redtail, you too, need to post more. You've made only 9 posts this game, and none in D2 (though I do admit your posts had plenty of meat in them, which I like.) Your intentions have masked this game, as you have attacked quite a variety of people, but have put down only one vote on singer (which BTW, that vote looked townish to me.) You have also done quite a lot of agreeing with Thor, which I don't like, but the possibility of you and Thor being partners seems remote to me at this point. I have a neutral/town read at you at this point, but I do ask you to post more.

Nexus

: There obviously has been some speculation of a relationship between you and singer, and it's not something I am throwing out the window. You seemed a little wishy-washy earlier in the game, but you did come back with some better posts. Here are some that I like:

Ok ok. If that's Jack's playstyle, why didn't he come out and say something about it when he posted today? He has to have read the thread to make the assumption that he can't get anything out of it. Why are you all jumping to Jack's defence, when he's perfectly capable of defending himself?

This quite a true statement, that questioned Jack quite fairly. We all know now that Jack is not ThAdmiral, and ThAdmiral looks town in my eyes. But nonetheless, I give town points to this because it raised quite an interesting question that no one else had raised.

Andrigan/saporovirus:

Defends the Far_Cry wagon. Asks Jack to contribute more, which is fair enough. Fair case on Redtail.
Sap: ROLECLAIMING WHUT!?!. I don't even agree with his argument for roleclaiming. It's silly. Other than that, he hasn't really done much either way.

DemonHybrid:

Three random votes in the space of two hours. Posts like..nothing for a few of his posts. Goes from saying I'm his number 1 scum read to Redtail being his number one scumread. Granted, he explains it, but...eh. The way he speaks is quite distracting, see ISO #22. Claimed at L-2, claimed an easy claim, so eh. Posts to defend Devon, after getting on Singer's back for her saying something similar about me. Gets angry that he's got a vote. Buddies with me in iso #54, pretty good turn after I was his must scummy pick for a while.

My main problem with DH is the sheer amount of fluff he posts whilst posting a little info and analysis. It's somewhat distracting. Also, don't like him trying to set up a "this is how we do it" in post #58. Not really a town thing to do, imo.

Devon/Sotty7:

"Honestly I don't care..." is not a good attitude, even if it is her first game. Only posts were to check in and explain things. Hard to come up with a read on her, though.

Sotty: Votes Far_Cry, says it's scummy but not really why. She does give excellent analysis though. Town read. Needs to post today. Actualy leaning towards town with Sotty, though.

Far_Cry:

Wanted to wait to get out of RVS. Why is he so concerned about the level of activity? OMGUS's jimfinn, and is really angry about the state of the game. This seems like frustrated town to me. He claims it's not OMGUS, but I am not convinced. "...I don't like to piggyback or buddy at this point, but..." distancing, much? (ISO #35)

Angry "WHY AREN'T YOU VOTING FOR ME!?" seems confusing. Not really sure what to make of it.

Jack/ThAdmiral:

My feelings on Jack are clear. He was lurking, then he dropped the game. Thanks.

ThAdmiral: Admirable analysis. Don't agre with early miller claim, but eh. Leaning towards town on ThAdmiral too.

Thor:

Very sarcastic, and seems a little distracting, but eh. Does seem desperate to start a wagon, and whilst I moaned about his vote hopping, I have since reconsidered, and perhaps make this to be more of a town tell, or it's excellent scum play, because who would expect scum to be stupid enough to keep going at people? Hmmm. Does get a little tunnelly on DH, but it's kinda understandable.

jimfinn:

Random vote that then required everyone to say "eh!?". Not sure if that was intentional or not. At least he explains it. Checks in to say he's here, but he doesn't really say much else. Hooray for tunnelling Far_Cry. Seems to be active lurking, and is one of the worst.

nhammen:

9 posts? Impressive. His first "analysis" was like...nothing useful. He says a lot of "agree" and "good points", which isn't really needed. and also !?!??! and other things aren't really contributing anything. Hasn't posted on Day 2 yet. As far as I can see he hasn't really done much besides agree to other people.

redtail896:

Asks for more, but he doesn't give us anything instead. *rages at incorrect usage of 'you're', but otherwise excellent case on singersigner. Yet another one who hasn't posted on Day 2.

Sorry I sort of disappeared, I had to deal with some stuff, which meant I didn't have my entire attention on MS, and fucked things up in other games. I'm more or less back, technically should be v/la from tomorrow until Sunday, but I'm gonna try and stick around.

My current scummiest are: nhammen for actually lurking and contributing very little, imo. DH for his fluff to content ratio, and jimfinn for sort of active lurking. Only definite town reads are Sotty and ThAdmiral.

This is not quite THE best analysis, but it's something and certainly better than your earlier one. I'm not exactly sure who are your top suspects (which I would like you to post.) Overall, it looks like you have a pretty standard view on this game. You haven't been quite clear with everything, and I still have to consider that you might be partners with singer. But you are not my top suspect at this moment.

jimfinn

: You actively lurk D1, then come back and jump on my wagon D2. I'm definitely not liking that. You did attack me in a reasonable manner:

Wait, so Far_Cryscum is abandoning the DH wagon after I call him out for not unvoting in a continued attempt to look more town, and decides to take revenge by OMGUS voting the person who caused said wagon to fall apart.

Ok this is good. But after that, nothing:

After Far_Cry, my second scum read right now is DH, but that's not a particularly solid read - claiming VT at L-2 is a move I dislike and in my opinion (due to Hohum's Theory, which I believe) is antitown at best, and could even be a scum trying to relieve some pressure and not risk an eager hammer. At the same time, the intention of the claim seems genuine, just misguided, so I'm going to leave my vote on FC

Something about this doesn't smell right. Considering that there is a possibility that you and DH are partners. Then this:

VOTE: far_cry my vote was on you at the end of the day, and the flips only strengthen that opinion.

You haven't given us a why for this (so I will ask you now: Why does singer flipping scum make me look more scum?). Overall, outside of maybe 1 post, your play has been quite lackluster, lazy, and one-sided. You've spent most of this game attacking me, without giving much look to other possible suspects.

DemonHybrid

: Here we go, rapid-fire bad posts:

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

I'ma thinkin that Far Cry is uh little bit turnin de argument onto jimfinn a little bit

He made a valid point. OMGUS argument against saporo.

Saporo feels like she's truthful about her miller claim. So, lets lynch far_cry some more plox.

When I meant "he" made a valid point, I meant jimfinn. He isn't trying to speedlynch, or else he'd be tunneling the fuck out of you, FarCry.

Because you aren't confirmed scum.

Weak attempt to push suspicion on me.

All of these posts are bad. Either not true, or they make no sense.

Plus, before, you seemed quite sure that I was town. Reading between when you said I was scum and when you voted for me D2, you didn't really say anything that would make me think that you changed your thoughts. Thus, your vote on me because I had an "odd interaction with singer" does not look good to me. At all.

Looking at all of this, I have to say that DH and jimfinn look scummiest to me. I'm going to VOTE: jimfinn to put you at L-1 and see where you go. I would also like to see you claim. And

FoS DH

because I'm not liking your transition from D1 to D2 at all.

[Far_Cry]

I say that singer's flipping scum strengthens my read on FC because at times they appeared to be "directing" each other.

This is really vague. Elaborate, please.

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Same.

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

Big deal if he started the game out on the defensive. I hate when people pass up legit scumminess because of the situation. This is how the day went.

Day started.
I voted FC. jimfinn voted FC.
FC said "he doesn't like my multiple suspicions" (attempt to pin weak suspicion)
I catch that he's trying to pin suspicion on me for suspecting him.
"Uh......no, I'm not. rly, bro. lul talk about paranoid"
THEN SERIOUSLY, the NEXT post is him FoSing me for my "D1 to D2 transition" when none exists. Undeniable OMGUS; he still hasn't done anything to dispute his weird connection with singer.

DH, you have a flawed view of this game. Very flawed. You seem so intent in defending jimfinn and lynching me. I have yet to see good evidence from you.

Looking at the above post, I have never, ever tried to pin suspicion on you, and I have already stated that before. I was doing something completely normal, and questioning your actions.

I FoS you because I don't have two votes. I had to choose either between you or jimfinn, and I chose jimfinn. I attacked you because D1, you were quite sure that I was town, and did much to defend me when I came under fire from people like Thor, and nhammen. D2, you're suddenly voting for me, and I don't understand why.

Explain to me why jimfinn was actively lurking in the latter part of D1, then suddenly comes back D2 to wagon me. It looks to me like he's just trying to target me, because I'm an easy target. I know sapo earlier stated that jim was lazytown. But I think he's lazyscum. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself, even considering that he is under a lot of attack (and is L-1 now.) And why is that? Because he ride on the fact that people will attack me because of my bad D1 play and "odd interaction with singer" (which, I must add, can't be as strange as Nexus's interactions with singer D1.)

[Far_Cry]

@Town: Right now, I feel we are in a sticky situation. Either scum is on my ass, or is lying low (which could possibly mean nhammen or redtail.) We shouldn't rush anything, because if I'm lynched today, than jimfinn will be lynched D3. And if jimfinn is lynched today, and flips town, than I will be lynched D3. We must carefully weigh our decisions.

@jimnfinn: Yes, I would like you to claim. You are at L-1.

[Far_Cry]

I'm asking jimfinn to explain why he singer flipping scum makes me look scummy.

1.

DH, you have a flawed view of this game. Very flawed. You seem so intent in defending jimfinn and lynching me. I have yet to see good evidence from you.

2.

Looking at the above post, I have never, ever tried to pin suspicion on you, and I have already stated that before. I was doing something completely normal, and questioning your actions.

3.

I FoS you

because I don't have two votes. I had to choose either between you or jimfinn, and I chose jimfinn. I attacked you because D1, you were quite sure that I was town, and did much to defend me when I came under fire from people like Thor, and nhammen. D2, you're suddenly voting for me, and I don't understand why.

4.

Explain to me why jimfinn was actively lurking in the latter part of D1, then suddenly comes back D2 to wagon me. It looks to me like he's just trying to target me, because I'm an easy target. I know sapo earlier stated that jim was lazytown. But I think he's lazyscum. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself, even considering that he is under a lot of attack (and is L-1 now.) And why is that? Because he ride on the fact that people will attack me because of my bad D1 play and "odd interaction with singer" (which, I must add, can't be as strange as Nexus's interactions with singer D1.)

1. My last few points are evidence enough. You're taking the two people who suspect you and turning cases against them. It's ridiculous.

2. Um....yeahhhh, you realize you contradict yourself when you post

3. this. It's quite easy to say "Oh man..no, I wasn't pinning suspicion on you" when saying "I don't like this....why are you doing it" is EXACTLY what pinning suspicion is. It's subtle enough, and it's building a case which has absolutely no merit, especially when you say something like "I don't like your D1 to D2 transition", which is imaginary and something you made up. I've played the same, I have a new suspect.

I guess your reasoning for suspecting me is that "I changed my read", or something like that. It shouldn't matter what my read is on you. You should be voting me due to holes in my logic, scum motivation, connections, etc., not because "I had a town read on you" or "I have a scum read on you that changed overnight" (after a scum flip, no less). You're reduced to flailing arguments and "I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself, because your case is terrible" without justifying it.

4. It's hardly a "wagon". I placed a vote on you before jim did; you can call it a legit wagon if there are more than half of the votes needed for a lynch. He said it himself; he's just continuing his suspicion because singer's flip and your interactions with her make you more suspect. There's NO WAY in hell he's targeting you because you're an easy target; read his friggin ISO.

Him not pushing to defend himself, I've found, after my last game, is NULL, almost a town tell. There are a lot of reasons why people don't do that; frustration, laziness, spite of the town for making a bad decision, etc.

I like how you mention Nexus' interactions with singer. If I could compare your interactions with her with anyone else's interactions with her, it would be Nexus.

In the end: You had a distant but protective relationship with singer. You OMGUS'd me when I started to suspect you. You're creating an imaginary case by saying my "transition" from D1 to D2 is scummy when said transition doesn't exist. You're saying that jim is looking for an easy lynch when all he's BEEN doing is suspecting you. You have no willingness to read, no willingness to care who gets lynched, and you want to save your own skin in this case, because now you have two people against you and the pressure's starting to make you crack.

Make the right decision and lynch Far_Cry, people.

1. You're not getting me. I'm not OMGUS you guys. I'm not attacking you because you are attacking me. I'm attacking you and jimfinn because I'm not understanding the reasons why you are voting for me. Jimfinn has been vague, and if I'm understanding you right, you're making assumptions on what my actions mean, and turning my actions against me. That's why I'm attacking you guys.

2. I'm not contradicting myself. How many times do I have to say that questioning one's actions is not the same as pinning suspicion on them. Are you trying to tell me it's wrong to attack somebody because you feel their actions are questionable?

3. I really believe my case has better merit than yours. It looks to me like you just don't like my play, and because of that, you are voting for me. I'm not making your D1 to D2 transition up. I'm questioning why you found me town before, and now find me scum.

4. D1, jimfinn had a valid reason to attack me. D2, he's voting for me because of my "interactions with singer." He's already posted a few times, and has not explained himself. It seems to me he doesn't feel the need to defend himself because he can just target me.

BTW, if you're convinced I'm scum, who's my other partner?

[Far_Cry]

EBWOP:

Oh, I'd just like to say as well that

in my experience

, voting and FoSing in the same post is a major scumtell.

How so?

[Far_Cry]

I do agree with Thor that at this point, DH is kind of playing like he's full of himself, thinking that his case against me is soooo good. However, I'm beginning to change my views on him (DH). More and more he starts looking town to me. I doubt scum would be so die-hard in pursuing a case against me. Plus, possibilities of him buddying with jimfinn is low, as it's quite obvious (although I am sick and tired of him defending jimfinn, when jimfinn should be doing so himself.)

Concerning Nexus, I see the points you guys are giving about him. And I'm becoming more convinced that he is suspicious. However, my only problem is that I feel that we just let jimfinn off the hook. We built up a wagon against him, got him to L-1, and now we just let him go. It doesn't seem sense to me. I still feel that jimfinn is actively lurking.

I will iso Nexus, and see what comes up.

[Far_Cry]

OK, I won't be able to do my ISO right away. But just a question for you guys: when I do my ISO, would you rather I quote his posts (which would make my post longer, but that means you won't have to go back and look at his posts), or should I not quote his posts? Whatever is easier for you guys.

[Far_Cry]

OK, I won't quote. I'll make it easier to read (or at least to Thor):

ISO 2 & 3: He votes singer in the RVS, then goes on to give some bad reasoning for it. I understand it's RVS, but it's still something to look at. Plus, considering that this is your first game as scum (or at least on this site), I'm thinking this is might be a weak attempt to distance himself from singer.

ISO 4: Technically makes his own post useless, since he notes someone jumping wagons, but then goes on to say that it just doesn't matter.

ISO 5: He explains his reasoning for attacking wagon-hopping. Wait just a second - didn't you say that it doesn't matter? He then jumps the gun and votes for Jack. His reasoning for the vote makes me think that he is just a confused newbie.

ISO 6: Playing the sorry game by telling nhammen that he was focusing about Thor and "forgot" about DH. Hmmm.....

ISO 9: He gives a vaild point. There is no reason why everybody should defend Jack.

ISO 10: He reveals some of his playstyle (that he doesn't like anybody lurking, even during the early stages of the game.)

ISO 11: Defends Devon, though it's a reasonable defense (that she's busy.)

ISO 14: This is a poor excuse for analysis. He sits on the fence and decides to attack no one.

ISO 15: Attacks Thor because he doesn't like his attitude.

ISO 17 & 19: Goes back and supports his reasons for attacking Thor's attitude. At this point, he is still sitting on the fence, not going along with anything yet.

ISO 20: Still sitting on the fence. He says he can't "articulate himself." Don't know if this is sincere or not.

ISO 21: He is suddenly in the game and, along with everybody else, attacking sapo's role claim.

ISO 22: Another bad attempt to distance himself from singer. What we wanted from you is to prove that you are not with singer. Instead, you hide in the corner and say, "I have no desire to be associated with singer at all." The way you say this, though bad, give you some townie points because I doubt scum would phrase it like that. Though I never know.

ISO 23: FINALLY, a good post, and some good analysis from him. You finally announce who your top scum picks are, though I don't really agree with them.

ISO 24: I'm seeing a contradiction here. I was not in your top 3 scum list in your previous post, yet it looks like you would vote either me or jimfinn ("I'd be happy with Far_Cry and jimfinn.....)

All in all, I haven't really liked Nexus's lackluster play. I don't think I have sufficient evidence to vote him quite yet, but with a few votes against Nexus, I think he need to come back and defend himself.

[Far_Cry]

I do agree with Thor that at this point, DH is kind of playing like he's full of himself, thinking that his case against me is soooo good. However, I'm beginning to change my views on him (DH). More and more he starts looking town to me. I doubt scum would be so die-hard in pursuing a case against me. Plus, possibilities of him buddying with jimfinn is low, as it's quite obvious (although I am sick and tired of him defending jimfinn, when jimfinn should be doing so himself.)

Concerning Nexus, I see the points you guys are giving about him. And I'm becoming more convinced that he is suspicious. However, my only problem is that I feel that we just let jimfinn off the hook. We built up a wagon against him, got him to L-1, and now we just let him go. It doesn't seem sense to me. I still feel that jimfinn is actively lurking.

I will iso Nexus, and see what comes up.

Are you backpedaling with your read on me? What happened to your FoS? I've been pursuing you this hard all day, so what was it that made you decide that I'm town now?

Hold it cowboy. I've looked at things a little differently and changed my mind. Looking at the way you've tunneled the shit out of me, and not bothered not attack anyone else D2, you are playing either a really stupid scum game or a one-sided antitown game. I'm thinking the latter, because I know you're smarter than that and doubt you would act so retarded as a scum player.

[Far_Cry]

Oops, sorry. No, post 381 was an ISO of Nexus (read post 376.) Hope your migraine gets better.

[Far_Cry]

Why do I also feel that we have a ton of lurkers or inactive people? Here lets gets some activity going with a few questions:

1. What are your thoughts on Nexus? Noob town or scum?
2. Is sapo cleared town or not despite his claim?
3. What are your thoughts on our lurkers?
4. Anybody you can possibly link to singer?

[Far_Cry]

Hmmmm..... so how suspicious are you of jimfinn at this point?

Also, are you sure redtail flaked? The last time he ever posted was 4 days ago. Don't know, he needs to be replaced anyways.

Here's an interesting note: according to Mastin's Insane Tells #1, he says that the last to confirm are more than likely scum. It's not something you can solidly base a case on, and is definitely not completely sound, but I find it interesting that the last three to confirm (singer, nexus, and jimfinn) are our top scum suspects (obviously singer is scum.)

[Far_Cry]

Are you advancing the Mastin tell, or are you just mentioning it for the sake of amusement?

More for humor. I find it funny that it may be true in this game.

Am here. Some quick answers to the above questions:
1. Reread the Nexus ISO. As FC notes, kind of lackluster play (let the calls of hypocrite commence). One thing I noted though was FC calling Nexus's ISO 23 (the long one with reads on everybody) a "good post," and I'm not sure I can agree. It's a lot of IIoA, without taking any strong positions. In fact, I consider that post one of the more suspicious things that I could bring against Nexus. I don't know that I'm willing to vote for him quite yet though.

When I said Nexus's post was good, I mean't it was better than his previous posts (which sucked.) Not by any means was the analysis exhaustive or in-depth, but at least he tried, and I gave him points for that.

Ok, ok, I take all your points against me, and yes, I've been lacklustre, but I'm still not the worst for it. Redtail and nhammen have been much worse, and you're letting nhammen skip free. Turns out, best way to get you guys onside is to do eff all.

They have been much worse at what? They haven't posted much, but at least there was some content in their posts.

Far Cry: You are quite wrong. This isn't my first game as scum because, well...I'm not scum. So, hold your horses, k? I said I'd be happy with a you or jimfinn lynch because, at that moment, it didn't look like my scummier suspects were heading for the noose, so I was simply stating the two wagons and that I'm happy to jump on either of them.

I'm looking at it from a hypothetical stance. I'm saying if you are scum, this would be your first game as scum on this site.

Also, re: Singer. I've never had scum latch onto me like that before, so I didn't know the best way to defend myself. So, I came out and said the first thing that I thought might help.

Look, you can't always hang on to the newb game. I understand you don't have much experience, but you can't defend yourself by say, "I've never had that happen before."

But yes, I admit, I've been pretty poor in this game. However, you shouldn't be focussing on me. You've let jimfinn escape scot free without really having to defend himself. What was the point in the wagon, really?

That's why my vote is still on jimfinn. I also believe we let him off the hook. But why should we not focus on you? *Notes the weak attempt to get rid of suspicion.

Plus, before you stated you don't like redtail or nhammen. Then you said you would either jump on mine or jimfinn's wagon. So who are your top scum picks??

Anyways, Nexus is becoming a more and more convincing case. However, I'm not quite yet ready to vote for him yet (don't want to let off jimfinn.)

[Far_Cry]

OK, I feel quite adamant about my vote now, and I'm not going to switch over to Nexus. Jimfinn has been actively lurking, then comes back, and when asked a question by Thor and asked by redtail to present a case against me, he simply avoids both requests. A hammer would be good now.

[Far_Cry]

I'm not voting jimfinn. Still a terrible lynch.

Why?

[Far_Cry]

EBWOP: But you are considering hammering Nexus. Why him and not jimfinn?

[Far_Cry]

Oh, finally activity picks up. I see some things flying around, and some votes on me. I don't have time to post today, but I will do analysis and post tomorrow.

[Far_Cry]

Of course not.

Assuming you know that I already claimed VT, is this an attempt to associate me with him?

You could also be a cop trying not to get NKed.

I'm just pretty sure on my read.

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Nexus

, because either/or is fine, Nexus is closer, the day is nearly over, and Far_Cry is obviously not going to be today's lynch.

Why am I not in danger of getting lynched? I really don't like this vote. It seems like you're riding with what's popular. If you really believed in your case, you would have kept your vote on me.

I was confused as to what you meant, actually, but whatever.

C

ool that you quickly jump wagons, though.

O

f course, it doesn't really matter at this early stage.

P

erhaps I'll wait for the others before doing anything else.

For what use I've been. I fucked up and missed the night phase. So no, I have nothing else to back up my claims. I was hoping I'd avoid getting to L-1 and the lurker would be lynched so as I could do something N2, but since noone believed me, I have no choice.

That was creative way to claim. But I must admit, it seems sheepish to me. In fact, when reading this post, I couldn't even tell you claimed cop.

@ Thor: I suppose I'm putting too much faith in patterns, but jimfinn ALWAYS get lynched early for lackluster, lurky, fluffy play, and he's usually town. I jumped on the far_cry wagon because I felt like I had to switch to someone, and it will only put him at L2. I am suspicious of how he's played throughout the game; his contributions seem like too little, too late, and they've only come after pressure has mounted against him.

I would like to see proof of this. Your read on me seems outwardly general.

Why would you rather put the hammer on jimfinn, though? I mean, he at least has actually stuck his neck out and voted for people, for reasons other than that they are after him. Far_Cry posts long, wishy-washy analyses that mirror what other people have been saying, and really only makes a strong stand against jimfinn, who is such an easy lynch to sell. It just seems to me like he is lying low after stumbling several times yesterday, and I feel like a town player would dust himself off and at least try to genuinely participate.

Wishy-washy? My analysis does not go along with what others are saying. They are very much my own independent analysis. And what's wrong with having them long?

I'm starting not to like how you are playing now. You becoming lazy, and posting very general accusations against me. It seems to me that YOU are going with what others are saying.

Well, FC has had worse play if he really doesn't want to get lynched, because he's not been very pro-town at all. But who started the FC wagon? I will take a bit of a look at D1 and get back to you.

Once again, general statement, easy to make.

I want to lynch jimfinn because I tend to suspect FC was a counter wagon to singersinger and I believe jimfinn's lurking has been strategic in nature which I don't think can be believed of FC's lurking.

FC hasn't been lurking. He's just been offering wishy-washy statements. I also think the FC counterwagon is a valid theory only if you're very sure that jimfinn is scum, because he started it and some pro-town players jumped on it due to it's merits.

I am pretty undecided on jimmy-boy.

Which actually directly contradicts something I posted earlier today.

Why aren't you hammering him, Thor?

I like your honesty. +town points, and...well, the miller claim. I can see where you're coming with on that.

Consider yourself most town IMO, jim 2nd.

Why are you giving him town points? He's been honest on that one thing. How does that make him soooo town in your eyes?

Why would you rather put the hammer on jimfinn, though? I mean, he at least has actually stuck his neck out and voted for people, for reasons other than that they are after him.

Far_Cry posts long, wishy-washy analyses that mirror what other people have been saying, and really only makes a strong stand against jimfinn, who is such an easy lynch to sell. It just seems to me like he is lying low after stumbling several times yesterday,

and I feel like a town player would dust himself off and at least try to genuinely participate.

Thank you for this excellent summary of why FC's D2 play is scummy.

Oh here we go. Way to be very lazy jimfinn.

Far Cry: In the space of two posts, he says "Yay, well done for helping us to move towards getting out of RVS" and then he says "Wait, no, don't go out of RVS!" This, to me, is confusing, and contradictory. Admits he is wrong, and that he should contribute mmore. Dunno what to make of that; I think it's just being conciliatory so as not to ruffle any feathers.

Doesn't seem to want to take a stance until there was more talking. Really defensive re: Thor. A lot of complaints about activity on Day 1.

Day 2: He agrees with someone elses work. Riding the waves wooo. Got really angry at saporovirus for pointing it out too. I find that quite suspicious, really quite defensive (ISO #40) He posts a good town list, though, although a lot of it is patting others on the back. Trying to win points off of them?

Asking questions (ISO #53), not a play I've seen mid-game, it's usually done RVS. Might just be because I'm fairly new.

Needs to come back, he's disappeared after he asked DH a question. Although, DH's response was pretty poor. "I already explained it, I'm not going to reiterate it."

DH is actually quite fixated by Far_Cry.

Far_Cry is a bit scummy, yes, but I'd prefer to lynch jimfinn out of the two. At least FC is more active.

So, I'm probably going to go back to jimfinn.

Why did you go out and only post a very short ISO of me, only to then come out and say that I'm not the scummiest player?

Anyways, Me agreeing with someone else's work does not mean I'm riding the waves. I went out and did my own independent analysis and did my own independent work, so I don't see how this could be used against me.

Asking questions is perfectly reasonable at any point in the game, IMO.

Oh, finally activity picks up. I see some things flying around, and some votes on me. I don't have time to post today, but I will do analysis and post tomorrow.

If that's not a prod-dodge, I don't know what is.

I'd have to go out and say you've been doing a lot of prod-dodging yourself. But yes, my post was a prod-dodge. Work is work, and I just didn't have time to post. BTW, what did you think that post was?

One of the strongest reasons for me to support a Far_Cry lynch right is that he was relatively active early in the game, trying to push activity forward, but when the pressure starts to come onto him for the other things I have already mentioned, he starts to uberlurk so that he doesn't have to answer the accusations. Town would try to make a reasonable reply.

Hey what? I've not ever uberlurked. It's only now I haven't made a meaningful post in 3-4 days, because, as I've said above, work got in the way.

I've probably been posting twice as often as FC on D2, and any of my posts that were not replies to things people have said to me have been trying to convince others to vote FC and increase the pressure. votes=pressure, and my vote is already on him.

Really? You've made 13 posts D2 comapred to 21 (make this 22) made in D2. What the fuck are you talking about?

Anyways, my organized thoughts are coming up.

[Far_Cry]

A fatal flaw I believe many of you are making is trying to link me to singer, rather than trying to prove how my play has been scummy.

Anyways, concerning my interaction with singer, what I see is that people who are attacking me are trying to link me to singer by showing HER interactions with me, not MY interactions with her. Seeing how much trouble she was in, what it seems to me she was trying to do is buddy with me (just check out her final post, ISO 28.), so she could at least create confusion D2 (which is happening now.)

Concerning DH's (very brief) analysis of singer and I, you state that I found her scummy all throughout the day, then put her at L-1. What's the problem? Are you accusing me of trying to bus her? All I'm seeing is that you're trying really hard to prove I'm scum, and trying really hard to link me to singer by giving some BS reasons that I believe in no way prove that there is a connection between singer and I.

[Far_Cry]

Far_Cry, if you really do want to help town, how about you make a concrete case against jimfinn rather than pointing multiple suspicions at DH, nexus, and me, and then going on to defend your play. You are voting for him after all.

I'm scrutinizing what you, DH, and Nexus have posted. Those posts have flaws, and need to be pointed out. I'm not pointing suspicions on you guys; I'm just looking at your posts. One can't have a single-minded approach in the game of mafia; I can't have a single-minded focus on jimfinn, because then I wouldn't notice things that should warrant my attention. I'm just looking at the game with an open mind, not just tunneling the people that I find suspicious (which is what jimfinn has been doing.)

I believe I have done a summary on jimfinn before, but I will do it again:

Jimfinn started out D1 realtively normally. He then went on to attack me for my bad play which is quite reasonable. D1 wound down, and we lynched singer, who was scum. D2, jimfinn posts saying simply that he was suspicious of me earlier, and "(singer's) flip only strengthen's that opinion. He then went on to say "Oh, I'm not trying to speedlynch." He disappears for a little, then says that singer and I seem to be "directing at each other." He then disappears again, come back, and claims VT under pressure. He also says that there is reasonable evidence against me, in response to redtail saying that he didn't understand where votes against me were coming from.

And when we thought his play couldn't get worse, it did.

He ignores redtail's request to explain why I'm scummy, and avoids Thor's questions, even when asked twice. He disappears for a little again, then comes back to commend sapo for his amazing analysis of me (note that he has managed to completely avoid redtail and Thor.)

Finally, he goes on to make two of the worst posts in the game (and I know of addressed them before, but I would like to beat it home because they are so bad):

One of the strongest reasons for me to support a Far_Cry lynch right is that he was relatively active early in the game, trying to push activity forward, but when the pressure starts to come onto him for the other things I have already mentioned, he starts to uberlurk so that he doesn't have to answer the accusations. Town would try to make a reasonable reply.

Are you kidding me? This is absolutely untrue, and you don't even have any evidence to back yourself up. Not only that, this is exactly what YOU have been doing. What's funny to me is that your only posts D2 were all to attack me. Then, you disappear when questions and accusations are directed against you. You simply shrug them off and "forget" about them. YOU are the one who has been uberlurking.

I've probably been posting twice as often as FC on D2, and any of my posts that were not replies to things people have said to me have been trying to convince others to vote FC and increase the pressure. votes=pressure, and my vote is already on him.

This is an outright horrible statement. Not only have I posted more than you have D2, but my posts actually have some sense to them, unlike yours. You have not replied to questions directed at you, and your attempt to "convince" town to vote me were all coming off of other people's analysis and general assumptions.

I would really like to ask everybody why jimfinn is not a good lynch.

Wishy-washy is making statements such as "this seems very sheepish to me" and "you've taken a fairly neutral stance thus far;" those statements aren't meaningful in and of themselves. And yah, I know I'm pretty guilty of the same thing myself- being too general that is. I can forgive you that, but I'd also like to point out that a vague statement isn't any less vague just because you quote the specific post you are making a vague statement about. Furthermore, I'd probably trust you more if you stuck to your guns and explained why you thought jimfinn was scum rather than finding something nebulous to pick apart in every post from every player.

How are those above statements wishy-washy and vague? Nexus's post was indeed an odd one, and I said it was such. And the second statement was a definite opinion; again, I'm not seeing the problem. What do you expect me to do?

[Far_Cry]

Bump. Where is everybody?

[Far_Cry]

Either we don't have a doctor or we have a stupid one. The choice to kill shotty was an interesting one, considering that he was one of the most suspicious.

I'm obvscum now. So go ahead and vote for me, see what happens.

[Far_Cry]

Vote: Far_Cry

Glad to be of service.

So you are the only person to take my post literally. Interesting...

Still will not support a lynch on thor, redtail, sapovirus or farcry.

waiting to hear what the dr has to say, but Demonhybrid is the obvious choice for me today. Went through yesterday way to sure that jimfinn was town.

vote: demonhybrid

Why is Thor, redtail, sapo, and I not scummy in your eyes? (excuse me, that came out as bad grammar.)

Unvote, Vote: ThAdmiral

I like that that's your only reasoning, and not the fact that I may have actually gotten a read right, which is what I usually do. I actually had a big feeling that this is what you were going to do this day.

I'd like to know how "I was way too sure he was town" when I provided reasoning on why I thought he was town. My stance on jim has NEVER changed.

So you OMGUS vote him. Interesting. Was your vote on me a trap, that you are hoping that Admiral or somebody else might fall into?

This comment screams to have itself explained more. Where you already suspicious of ThAdmiral yesterday and I missed it? Why is this action of his so worthy of a vote when you're so certain of Far_Cry?

Yes.

Also, I had predicted someone on jim's wagon was going to blame me for "being too sure he was town" and completely discount my read, and I knew that that was definitely the person to go for. While I'm not going to go out of my way to clear Far_Cry, his AtE seems frustrated.

I was more focused on asking Admiral questions than explaining myself, so apologies.

But realize, we don't know how to take your defense of jimfinn. You could have just made a mistake, or you could be buddying.

To delve deeper: That's a classic scum attack. Someone gets a read right, and they try to undermine the read at the source: "It definitely couldn't have been right because you already knew it." Which is a downright logical fallacy. I had legitimate evidence supporting my read on jimfinn. The only thing that changed is that I gave up trying to convince people to step off of his wagon due to frustration (I am human, of course).

You've been doing quite a lot of defense. I'm not sure whether to take this as town or scummy. Need some time to think.

Hey, ThAdmiral: I think you're probably reading too much into DH thinking jim's a stupid lynch. He also seemed to be extremely prejudiced against far_cry. I however don't like how he's attacking your suspicions as scummy cuz you've been quite townsmanlike throughout.

I'm currently interested in nhammen/ shotty and Far_Cry. Will scrutinize them laters.

This is a baaad post. Are you coaching Admral? Because it looks like it to me. You say he getting too much into DH ("Shame shame, Admiral! You know you can't do that!"), then say, "Oh, he's quite likely town." I don't know about you, but I see some buddying here.

@Thor: Ignore my post on Nexus. It was late when I wrote the post and I don't know what the hell I was thinking.

[Far_Cry]

Ugh.

So you are the only person to take my post literally. Interesting...

It had nothing to do with your post. It had to do with jim's flip and my suspicions from yesterday, I took your AtE as scummy at the time until Admiral posted.

You didn't say this when you voted for me. And when you said, "Glad to be of service," I assumed you voted because I said you should....

For the love of christ, why does everyone improperly use the term "OMGUS"?

You guys are supposed to be better than me at mafia. I'm the newbie here, seriously, what the hell?

Textbook definition of OMGUS:

Player A: "Vote: Player B. He's mad scummy because he seemed like he auto-knew someone was town."
Player B: "DUDE, go fuck yourself! Vote: Player A"
Player A: "Oh my, OMGUS!"

NOT OMGUS:

Player A: "Vote: Player B. He's mad scummy because he seemed like he auto-knew someone was town."
Player B: "Vote: Player A. I don't like the fact that you're attacking me because of it, it seems opportunistic. I just happened to get my read right."
Player A: "Oh my, OM

NO. WRONG.

OMGUS is only OMGUS when the counter-vote has no reasoning to back it up. Please stop trying to pin suspicion on me.

And no. Admiral legitimately skyrocketed above you on scumminess. You are second on my list.

Holy shit! So you're saying your vote isn't OMGUS, because you had a valid reason to vote for Admiral. Let us revisit your vote:

Unvote, Vote: ThAdmiral

I like that that's your only reasoning, and not the fact that I may have actually gotten a read right, which is what I usually do. I actually had a big feeling that this is what you were going to do this day.

I'd like to know how "I was way too sure he was town" when I provided reasoning on why I thought he was town. My stance on jim has NEVER changed.

Do you call this valid reasoning, if there's any reasoning at all? I still believe you OMGUS. Also funny is your overreaction.

Uh....made a mistake? I made a good read. I proved it with evidence. That's not a "mistake"; you guys were the ones that made the mistake.

Let's not get out of hand with this.

Does everyone agree that my reasoning for not suspecting jimfinn is valid?

Please refer to my recent reply to Admiral; I brought the post back up.

When I said mistake, I meant you made a mistake in your reasoning, in why you thought jimfinn is town. It proved correct, but your reasons for it didn't make sense. So no, your reasons for not suspecting jmfinn were not valid.

So, I'm forced to defend myself, and when I do, it "could be scummy". You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?

I'm not liking your defense; that's the problem. I find it so funny that your critisize me for EVERYTHING I do. And everything you do is SOOO good. You were so sure jimfinn was town D2 and that I was scum. You know what I think? You're an egotistical bastard, and you need to quit making yourself look so good.

[Far_Cry]

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by

your own reasoning

! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

This is a point, but I don't think it

guarantees

that he is scum. Your reason is by playing the obvious - that since DH KNEW that jimfinn was town (in fact, the only person who thought he was town) and since he's obviously not the cop, he MUST be scum. The idea of him having inside info (scum) is plausible, but I don't think him knowing that jimfinn was town proves anything yet. Though I do agree, that his reasoning for supporting jimfinn was faulty.

1. Finding jimfinn town = insane, even with reasoning. False, because reads in mafia are subjective.

This is something that can be easily said. I know reads are subjective, but if your reasoning was faulty, then its obviously something that needs to be paid attention to.

2. Having inside knowledge about jim being town = I MUST be an investigative role or scum. False, because I don't have inside knowledge; I made a good subjective read on jimfinn.

I addressed this above; no, you're not guaranteed scum. But you saying, "Oh, I don't have inside knowledge" isn't proving anything, and as a result, not helping your case. BTW, you did NOT have a "good subjective read" on jimfinn.

You have no basis on which to vote me or create a case against me. It has been nothing but misrepping, lies, and painting peoples' hands red.

Can we lynch ThAdmiral, please?

Whoa. This is what I was talking about when I called you an egotistical bastard. True, Admiral's case was not solid, but its not based on lies, like you said.

For this whole game, you've been in love with your cases, and thinks everybody else's cases sucked. Tell me, did you ever say anyone else's case besides your own was good? Quit playing like you're the fucking know-it-all, because you're screwing things up.

You guys, I think I found the scum. He is a little canid fellow (though I guess now he's one of 'em pokiemans).

d1: votes Nexus for being especially srs. Later says "O great, a Nexus wagon, he so scummy." Points FOS at Redtail, Devon, Far_Cry, and Thor, says singer's alright early on (in a noncommittal kind of way). Singer votes him for explaining about how Devon has a busy life, and his reply is: "Oh well you're being a silly bimbo Singer but other than that your play has been ok." My reaction would be OMGSCUM immediately. In that same post (his #40) he implicates various players as scummy because of minor arguments he made against them ages ago.

IN HIS 45 he's like "Oh my goshers Thor is still scummy but I like his arguments against you singer so I'm 'a gonna vote."

54: Polite and kind to singer scummer because she's sick, looks suspiciously at my miller claim- could be a distraction tactic but that's definitely a stretch.

So in summary his d1 FoS are all over the place, he doesn't really commit to the idea of a scumsinger though he votes her early, and I think in general his playstyle is very smoke and mirrors-y.

d2: Far_Cry is a very easy lynch to sell in this game (sorry bro). However, I'm just not feeling his scumliness anymore (sounds dirty) because DH basically has been tunneling the fuck out of him. I know that his tone hasn't been great in this game, but he dug himself into a hole early on and I honestly just think he's acting out because he's been hounded (lol). Also, DH claims to be "confident in his reads" but he was kind of all over the place on that d1, which suggests to me he's been distracting town on purpose.

d3: I don't think Demon's confidence in jimfinn is scummy in itself. This is also the one thing that makes me doubt my scum read, because I too had a strong feeling that jim was town. My feeling came entirely from glancing through his other games and realizing that he basically plays like that all the time. I also think I found a scum game where he actually posted more in an effort to misdirect people. IDK, it's moot now, but I'm just saying that while I too wasn't for the jimlynch, I think maybe DH argued against it to confuse town. All analysis of that situation will turn into WIFOM, so I will leave it alone for now. I have better reasons to suspect him than that anyway .

OK I'll take a look at the vote count now and make sure I'm not doing anything too drastic before I throw the hatchet. And I apologize for my wordy posting style today guys, this is how hungover saporovirus types and talks.

EDIT: so ThAdmiral's last post confirms for me EVEN MORE that he is town. Way to not mire town down, buddy! <3

Ummmmm, yeaaaaah. This is not convincing me anything. DH's play D2, has nothing to do with his play D1, so it doesn't mean anything that he was all over the place D1 and then centered on me D2.

And Admiral has not at ALL confirmed that he is town. So stop acting like he's obvtown.

To further comment, he was the one that started said "perceptions of a dead townie" and is the reason why he's voting for me. I don't see how ANY of you people can't see the scumminess in that.

Actually, this is true. I'm going to need to take a closer look at Admiral, maybe do an ISO of him.

Like I said, Far_Cry.

So you're saying that the scum trio is singer, ThAdmiral/Jack, and I. Tell me, how did you link Admiral and I? Or maybe Admiral/Jack to singer?

[Far_Cry]

EBWOP: Where the fuck is redtail? He is the only one not participating in the discussion. Lurking much?

[Far_Cry]

Claim-time, Admiral.

[Far_Cry]

Yo, Far_Cry, since this post I'm quoting all you've done is demand for Admiral to claim. In the post prior to the one I'm quoting you actually still seemed to be riding the 'don't trust DH' wagon. Where are you now? How do you feel about DH? How do you feel about Admiral? What are your thoughts on the current wagon of him?

Thor, oh Thor. Questions are detrimental to reason. Actually, no, I'm too lazy.

[Far_Cry]

Thor, oh Thor. Questions are detrimental to reason. Actually, no, I'm too lazy.

IMMA POST ALL CAPS FOR A SECOND TO PROPERLY CLARIFY HOW ANGRY I AM. PICK *ONE* OF THE BELOW OPTIONS!

Request replacement from the mod - NOW!
Start playing the game.

Maybe I should hammer, and then we talk.

[Far_Cry]

I'm busy-lazy, therefore I'm scum. WTF?

Mod

: Requesting replacement. I'm simply too busy for mafia right now. I'm really sorry. Have a fun and interesting game guys.