Mini 1042 - Skillville - GAME OVER!

[DemonHybrid]

/confirm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtLsXYdvbU Les' do dis.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Untrod Tripod

Just cause you were quick to the uptake there. I prefer to end my RVS early.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: Aldusskel

I'm down. Like I said before...

[DemonHybrid]

confirming

What is this nonsense?

Yoshi's can't speak anything but their own name.

Bow.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: Zachrulez

[DemonHybrid]

vote: Aldusskel

L-1!

No claim. Somebody hammer.

Woo real vote time!

Unvote
Vote: Socrates

Yay! Reasons?

FoS: Socrates

He's obviously looking for a reaction. You should know better, I think the pressure caught up to you.

[DemonHybrid]

Did you think I was serious? Did you think a hammer would actually happen?

Did you think a hammer would actually happen when you put him at lynch -1? It's a possibility whether you think it will happen or not.

+1 Scum points.

Please, I invite you to dig yourself into a deeper hole. Arguing with a buddy won't help out.

[DemonHybrid]

It's usually the first one that cracks and leaves the wagon that looks the best. What better way to gain town points than to do that?

Asking for an explanation doesn't sit right with me either.

[DemonHybrid]

FoS: Socrates

He's obviously looking for a reaction. You should know better, I think the pressure caught up to you.

That doesn't make sense. I am the one that's obviously looking for reactions.

@Zack: The only person I could see as a liability to hammer is Horror dude since everyone else had already thrown out a random vote, and I don't think that guy is illiterate, and I had every faith that some good Samaritan would immediately come in and unvote.

You would think Scott is a smart enough guy to know that the person putting the RVS wagon at L-1 knows what he's doing...so, stop and think about it for a second.

[DemonHybrid]

You would think Scott is a smart enough guy to know that the person putting the RVS wagon at L-1 knows what he's doing...so, stop and think about it for a second.

Why in the world would I think that?

Why wouldn't you?

[DemonHybrid]

Yep. Check the wiki.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: He voted me for one. Why assume at all? You know what those do.

So, you're agreeing with me? I'm not sure if I can make sense of this statement.

If you're saying he voted you for a reaction, and you gave him one, then why did you argue against that at first?

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: He voted me for one.

Then I have no clue what this means if you didn't mean that he voted you for a reaction.

And you shouldn't have taken his vote seriously, no. Asking him for reasons is somewhat of a concerning move at this stage in the game. Of course he doesn't have a reason, and even if he does, it's obvious.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Meaning, he doesn't have a reason other than wanting to see how you'd act.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, his vote on me, if taken at face value,

Well, there's your problem.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: He voted me for one.

You still haven't answered on what this means, as well. I'm quite curious. Please do so.

[DemonHybrid]

Scott.

[DemonHybrid]

Zach.

Dude, it's an RVS bandwagon. Unless you have more info, all we can assume is that it's an RVS vote.

If you DO have more info, you know what withholding that is...

[DemonHybrid]

FoS: Socrates

He's obviously looking for a reaction. You should know better, I think the pressure caught up to you.

That doesn't make sense. I am the one that's obviously looking for reactions.

@Zack: The only person I could see as a liability to hammer is Horror dude since everyone else had already thrown out a random vote, and I don't think that guy is illiterate, and I had every faith that some good Samaritan would immediately come in and unvote.

You would think Scott is a smart enough guy to know that the person putting the RVS wagon at L-1 knows what he's doing...so, stop and think about it for a second.

Never assume someone is smart at this game.

Wagons are good and all when there is a chance for someone to react. Wagons that build up quickly to L-1 serve no purpose as a. someone will undoubtedly unvote and remove pressure and b. there usually is not enough time for the person to react. I find people are more honest in their reactions to a slow building wagon rather than an L-1 and forms in 5 posts. So rather than be close to an accidental/scummy hammer. Clearly we are both looking for reactions.

Looks like I assumed correctly.

Very true post, I look forward to what you have to say in the future. I still dislike Zach's unvote for right now over any vote on the wagon.

[DemonHybrid]

@Soc: Except for the fact that I don't really take stuff at face value. That's how you scumhunt effectively. I also don't remember Scott disagreeing with me on the fact that I thought he was looking for a reaction. As far as me "forgetting" that Scott could be scum, I haven't forgotten, but I had a good inkling on what he was trying to do, and trying to hunt for info like that plays off as purely town to me. Scott is town to me at the moment, but he could do something that I don't like. -You-'re forgetting that you can have reads instead of inside knowledge.

@Aldusk: The beauty of my vote without a reason (Soc, you might want to read this part, too) is to see what he would do. Of course I know both town and scum can do that, but it's how they react afterwards that really test their alignment. Zach soft-asking for a reason on why I'm voting for him shows off a great paranoia at that stage of the game and rubs off as scummy to me. Asking for explanations are fine and all, but it all depends on the context, and I think you know that and forgot the context part of it.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: He voted me for one.

You still haven't answered on what this means, as well. I'm quite curious. Please do so.

Soccy, you're making me sad here

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

Unvote, Vote: Aldusskel

I'm down. Like I said before...

L-2 vote. I find this scummy because you referred to what you had said ealrier, but that was only: "I prefer to end my RVS early" - which has absolutely nothing to do with the justifiability a) of you voting Ald or b) of you voting him to L-2. +4

Except for the fact that RVS bandwagons help to end RVS early, so I don't see the broken correlation here. You, of all people, should know this, so it confuses me that you don't.

vote: Aldusskel

L-1!

No claim. Somebody hammer.

Did you think I was serious? Did you think a hammer would actually happen?

That's not the point at all. If somebody is at L-1 it is trivially easy for a player to accidentally hammer through forgetfulness, cross-posting and not seeing that it is L-1 (even with the shiny new preview thing) - and it's likewise trivially easy for scum to exploit that. Second, if it doesn't go to a lynch, a L-1 RVS wagon is invariably going to break down because people will jump off it like a sinking ship.

+4

It's usually the first one that cracks and leaves the wagon that looks the best. What better way to gain town points than to do that?

Ahem...Read, absorb, read again:

The working definition of a scumtell is an action that is more likely to be taken by a scum player than a town player. This relies on motivations, as most things in mafia do. When a player takes an action, evaluating it on the basis of "would this action more likely come from a town player, or a scum player" should be the way that players determine the scumminess of that action. It is worthwhile to note here that subjectivity plays little to no role in this distinction. POSSIBLE motivations for scum to take a given action are not sufficient to call an action a scum tell. An action is scummy if and only if it can be deemed more likely to come from scum than from town, A perfect example of this occurs in mini 636: Gangland mafia. Kuribo asserts that an action is a scumtell to him, because he can think of A justification for scum to do it, but neglects, as vollkan points out, to show that this reason is likely.

Zach left an L-1 wagon. Two possible explanations:
a) He is scum who wants to appear pro-town
b) He is town who doesn't want a premature lynch

But possible scum motivations do not suffice to make something a scumtell. You need to explain why it is more likely to come from scum-Zach than town-Zach?

Has Zach been apparently inconsistent (my reason for suspecting you)? Has he shown recklessness (my reason for suspecting Socrates)? Has he done something else that warrants you favouring the scum explanation? If not, your attack is flawed.

I didn't like Zach's reaction to my vote. My read on him didn't come until AFTER my vote. This is probably something I should have said before. And yes, I would find that

asking explanations

to voting on him for backing away from an L-1 RVS wagon scummy, because it's too serious for the situation. Him saying that he has info on Al that he won't share is anti-town as well and is a good supplement to my desire to lynch him.

@Zack: The only person I could see as a liability to hammer is Horror dude since everyone else had already thrown out a random vote, and I don't think that guy is illiterate, and I had every faith that some good Samaritan would immediately come in and unvote.

What do you think about DemonHybrid's attack on Zach then?

You would think Scott is a smart enough guy to know that the person putting the RVS wagon at L-1 knows what he's doing...so, stop and think about it for a second.

No. This is a risk v reward thing.

Every player with half a brain can see the strategy behind putting somebody at L-1 to see how others react. The point is that the risks inherent in doing so are huge, for the reasons I outlined above.

And you don't think Scott had a plan (which was my point all along)?

3. Forgetting where your vote is, is scummy.

Why?

(And if you say "Scum don't pay attention" or any variation thereon I am going to headdesk)

I want to comment on this, because it's usually TOWN that forgets where their vote is. Scum seems to pay much more attention to the votecount in my personal experience, but I may be wrong. Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, Alduskkel's posts thus far have seemed to do nothing but promote RVS. The fact that he made an RVS vote, and then continued to crack jokes in a short time span in response to other posts is something that I find slightly scummy. (But not scummy enough to lynch off an RVS wagon.)

First, why did you want to keep this reasoning secret in post 61?
Second, what changed that made you reveal it?
Third, what exactly made Ald's play "slightly scummy?

So, vollkan, try not to twist my arguments around next time

[DemonHybrid]

Untrod, you have something to say? You've been in and out of Little Italy all day today and hadn't said a word since your first post.

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod: V/LA until Saturday Night.

I'm going to reply to everyone tomorrow before I leave though.

[DemonHybrid]

Except for the fact that RVS bandwagons help to end RVS early, so I don't see the broken correlation here. You, of all people, should know this, so it confuses me that you don't

I didn't miss that correlation. My point, since it may not have been clear, was that "ending RVS" in and of itself cannot jusitfy the specific means that you choose to do it. For instance, to take an extreme example, if X is a dayvig, it would hardly be legitimate for X to dayvig somebody on the basis that they wanted to "end RVS". Similarly, wagonning a particular player to L-2, whilst by no means that extreme, also goes beyond a normal RVS wagon. Referring back to a previous reason like you did creates a perception of consistency, but your reason didn't actually specifically justify what you did here.

I just have to comment: From what I've noticed, L-1 wagons in RVS are no different than L-4 or L-5 wagons, even if they are more intense; it's still as valid. I'm not sure if you're arguing against the "extreme"ness of L-1 RVS wagons or not, but L-1 wagons actually produce more intense and panicked results. I have no problem pushing someone that close to the edge. I know Soc hates this word, but I'm sure everyone was assuming that someone was going to crack. I just feel that it was scum that did it based on his reaction to my vote.

I didn't like Zach's reaction to my vote. My read on him didn't come until AFTER my vote. This is probably something I should have said before. And yes, I would find that asking explanations to voting on him for backing away from an L-1 RVS wagon scummy, because it's too serious for the situation. Him saying that he has info on Al that he won't share is anti-town as well and is a good supplement to my desire to lynch him.

First, nothing in the above explains why you favoured the scum interpretation of his actions.

"I would find that asking explanations to voting on him for backing away from an L-1 RVS wagon scummy, because it's too serious for the situation." I think that's a good enough answer.

Second, could you rephrase your second sentence "And yes..." because I can't understand it

That was in response to you asking why I leaned more towards him being scum than town. Sorry for not being clear.

Third, I agree with you on his comments about Al - if you were referring to his "I'm not telling why I voted Al" that I attacked above

Answer to Soc later, I'm at the school comp lab.

[DemonHybrid]

@Soc: Except for the fact that I don't really take stuff at face value. That's how you scumhunt effectively. I also don't remember Scott disagreeing with me on the fact that I thought he was looking for a reaction. As far as me "forgetting" that Scott could be scum, I haven't forgotten, but I had a good inkling on what he was trying to do, and trying to hunt for info like that plays off as purely town to me. Scott is town to me at the moment, but he could do something that I don't like. -You-'re forgetting that you can have reads instead of inside knowledge.

@Aldusk: The beauty of my vote without a reason (Soc, you might want to read this part, too) is to see what he would do. Of course I know both town and scum can do that, but it's how they react afterwards that really test their alignment. Zach soft-asking for a reason on why I'm voting for him shows off a great paranoia at that stage of the game and rubs off as scummy to me. Asking for explanations are fine and all, but it all depends on the context, and I think you know that and forgot the context part of it.

You are completely missing the point. If we don't want to make any assumptions about what a person is thinking, do you know what the best way to find out is? Pay very close attention to this, DH, because it is important, YOU TALK TO THEM.

You're acting as if assumptions in RVS are a terrible thing. Seriously, whatever happened to the validity of reads? By your logic, gambits shouldn't exist; I at least never lied about my intentions, instead, I just wasn't clear at first to see what he'd do, so I don't see how that's such a bad thing.

Bollocks on your "vote without a reason to see what he would do". You need solid explanations for when you call someone scum, otherwise anytime your arguments aren't going the way you want them to, you can just claim "I was voting him for reactions".

So says you. Again, by your logic, having a read or a feeling of someone being scum is completely invalid. What evidence can you have during RVS of someone being scum? Also, I'm pretty sure that "I didn't like the way he reacted to my vote" is a solid explanation. My vote was a test; At the time, it was the scummiest thing that I've found (no one else really did anything that scummy at the time), and to be honest, I would have voted you instead if Zach didn't react the way that he did to my vote. It was the reaction that set it in stone; you guys are still assuming

oh damn, did I use that word?

assuming that my vote was because I found his unvote the scummiest thing in the world, instead of the scummiest thing in this game by that point.

@DH: He voted me for one.

You still haven't answered on what this means, as well. I'm quite curious. Please do so.

Soccy, you're making me sad here

I already answered this question.

If you did, you weren't very clear. Cite it please. If you can't, then re-answer it. I don't like your vagueness.

[DemonHybrid]

Demon, if he really IS reaction fishing, then surely you know that it becomes null when you bring it up, so why do it? Reactions can be a way to get a really good read on people sometimes.

Soc asking for reasons (post #36: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2488822) is already the reaction that I felt he wanted.

I hardly read things at face value; you guys should follow suit. Banking on face value intentions will gain us nothing but mislynches, so do some actual analysis and logical thinking, I know you can.

[DemonHybrid]

Untrod, you have something to say? You've been in and out of Little Italy all day today and hadn't said a word since your first post.

You're visiting Little Italy again...

[DemonHybrid]

Untrod, you have something to say? You've been in and out of Little Italy all day today and hadn't said a word since your first post.

You're visiting Little Italy again...

this game has been moving kinda fast...if you hadn't noticed... Every time I come back to respond to something I read earlier, there are four more walls of text. That being said, your play is twitching my scumdar, DH. I'm suspicious of your willingness to jump on/create bandwagons and by your rapidly switching votes around on page two.

Ah, so here we go. Glad you could join us. Also, this is a pretty apparent parroting of vollkan's view of me switching votes, -however-, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend that you didn't read what he wrote. It's fine and all when you agree with someone (not everyone can be original), but you're molding this point after what he said.

It's usually the first one that cracks and leaves the wagon that looks the best. What better way to gain town points than to do that?

Asking for an explanation doesn't sit right with me either.

Yes, everyone knows that the person who wants the most said about what happens in the game is the scum. The only person who should be averse to explanation is the person whose motivations are not those that benefit the town. Saying that you don't like someone “asking for an explanation” is anti-town, imo.

Like I said before, look at the context. Al's wagon was RVS, my vote was without a reason (I wanted it to be assumed that it was RVS, and it wasn't; Zach took it too seriously to my liking). I know that RVS ends at different times for everyone, but at that point, there clearly really wasn't any solid information to be that serious over a single vote. Hence my scum read on Zach.

@Soc: Except for the fact that I don't really take stuff at face value. That's how you scumhunt effectively. I also don't remember Scott disagreeing with me on the fact that I thought he was looking for a reaction. As far as me "forgetting" that Scott could be scum, I haven't forgotten, but I had a good inkling on what he was trying to do, and trying to hunt for info like that plays off as purely town to me. Scott is town to me at the moment, but he could do something that I don't like. -You-'re forgetting that you can have reads instead of inside knowledge.

@Aldusk: The beauty of my vote without a reason (Soc, you might want to read this part, too) is to see what he would do. Of course I know both town and scum can do that, but it's how they react afterwards that really test their alignment. Zach soft-asking for a reason on why I'm voting for him shows off a great paranoia at that stage of the game and rubs off as scummy to me. Asking for explanations are fine and all, but it all depends on the context, and I think you know that and forgot the context part of it.

I don't think votes without a reason are ever good. I'm the kind of player who thinks that some kind of explanation is always good. It doesn't have to be honest

I have to stop you here.

Wouldn't not being honest (a.k.a lying) be a TERRIBLE thing for town to do? Vague reasons are fine for a scumfishing townie; lying is just either a ballsy gambit or...well, you know: Anti-town. You've heard of lynch all liars before, right?

, but I really don't like just smacking a couple votes around without any kind of decent explanation why. If you don't give an explanation, then the town doesn't have any way to judge your actions later in the game and it just looks like you want to be able to vote without recourse or review. Sorry, that's not how the game works. Also, I don't think you should be telling us “how you scumhunt effectively”. Trying to look the expert is smarmy and a good scum tactic to look “too valuable to lynch”, which is the other reason why I really dislike the “I have my secret reasons!” vote.

I'm only putting out my point of view. By this logic (I'm going to be using this term a lot, it seems...), info hunting and scum hunting by any means necessary is a terrible thing to do, which goes along with my last bolded point criticizing your view...why is lying good, then, if you're against having vague reasons? You're kinda backwards on this subject, and I don't know what to make of it.

I'm not THE expert on Mafia (I know like 2/3 of you have been here for months longer than I have), but I do have a good hold on the game and I believe I'm an ample scumhunter. But it's points like these that make me question how much of an understanding everyone has of this game. OBVIOUSLY not being honest is a bad thing. It's lying. You lynch all liars. That's the way that it goes. You're also being hypocritical on telling me how the game is supposed to be played and criticizing me on being smarmy in the same post.

I don't like hypocrisy....-_-;;

I'm also really bugged by posts 80, 94 and 97. Quoting a really long post just so you can give a one sentence response, or worse yet, only bold some things in the post is NOT productive contribution. It's the appearance of activity.

You're not the type of guy that likes short, sweet and to the point responses, but likes reading loads of fluff. Got it.

I have a neutral tell on you, but I feel like you're extremely misguided. Pick things up.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, the V/LA will be in effect after 2:15 PM, EST. Keep that in mind.

[DemonHybrid]

@mod: im going to need to extend my v/la until sunday afternoon. staying here an extra night and can hardly reply...posting on my crappy phone. sorry.

[DemonHybrid]

I am back.

I, however, need a shower and food to regain my bearings before I can continue to post with such fervor. So hang tight till like 4 PM or so.

[DemonHybrid]

EST, sorry. I thought I posted EST.

[DemonHybrid]

What timezone. We aren't all americans you know.

@HD: how many games have you played since the one we were in together. I want to know if that meta is applicable here. This will greatly help me get my bearing with my conclusions from reading the game thus far.

You know, you haven't made a meaningful post all game. All you've done is mention that you have meta... goodie for you. Past games and performances are wonderful, but this game is the important one. Meta that you claim you have is useless until you start being able to apply it to the current game - and even then, it is only valid as a supplement to arguments based on the actual thread.

Vote Espeonage

Participate please.

Dude. Have made any indication I have finished my read through?

This. Hold your horses.

I'm still piecing together stuff myself.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright.

Post #102 (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 77#p249157): First off, I want to apologize if my egging on is seen as a personal attack to you, but I never intended it to be. Also, you must have forgotten that I posted that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt...

To be honest, it feels a bit like an overreaction to me, but I can see how you can get annoyed about it, so apologies. I DO have to ask you why you think it's "vote-hopping" when I had only switched my vote only once from Al to Zach (I was the first one on Zach, Al was an RVS bandwagon and I'm not counting my vote on you for obvious reasons). vollkan mentions this in a later post.

Post #102 continued:

Ok, I'll give you that I didn't really qualify that one and saying "you should lie" is not a good plan. Allow me to restate: I feel like you should give a reason for your votes. If you don't give one at all it really just allows people to come up with different reasons why you might do it. If you have hidden motivations for your vote, you're a lot more likely to be prodded for information if you don't give any reason at all and then you'll end up saying "oh, I had some secret reasons", which kind of defeats the purpose, don't you think? I'm not saying that you should lie, just that if you have hidden motivations, you shouldn't just vote with no reason because people will call you on it. Also, I'm getting a little more of the feeling that you're trying to color me as stupid by doing the "I have to stop you there" thing, because dude....it's forum mafia. You either can respond after the whole quote or just stick a comment between sentences. "I have to stop you there" serves absolutely no purpose other than a kind of rhetorical device to put you in the power role in this discussion."

This does nothing to explain why you think lying is better to do over giving no reason.

I know very well why people don't like when others don't give reasons for their votes. I know very well that they could call me on it. Those are -reactions- and they're useful for hunting for scum. You know this.

Sorry if my reply seemed sharp-tongued to you, but it wasn't a tactic to put myself into the power role here; it's just sort of what I do when I find something in an argument that I find extremely wrong.

Like you said; this IS forum mafia and you should expect these types of responses. I understand people have bad days and the like, but the more annoyance someone replies with, the more the interrogator will suspect the annoyed answerer. However, seeing as how I can believe that the answers can be taken disrespectfully, I won't count it against you.

Replying to me implying that you like fluff instead of short and concise answers:

No.

Then why bring it up in the first place? I believe that all of my answers have been short and to the point. I don't like adding fluff.

I'm not questioning your ability to play mafia. I'm sure you're fine. My point of view is that information is the most useful thing you can contribute. You are being smarmy, though.

You're contradicting yourself when you say that I have to come out with complete 100% reasons on why I do something ASAP AND I should give out all the information that I can. Perhaps I won't have that information until I get a reaction, and outing my intentions would ruin everything. Why so impatient?

Do you think wanting information is "extremely misguided"? What do you mean by "pick things up"? Do you not think posting once a day is enough?

1. It's the way you want the information. I will give it out when I'm good and ready, and when it's good and useful. Sometimes tests need to be done.
2. Pick things up = please think about things before you post them next time. You should know that if you want the full extent of a test on someone's reactions...well, you need the -reaction- first.
3. Once a day is plenty to me. That wasn't what I was referring to, so I suppose I wasn't clear.

Post #105 (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2491651)

Let's say for example, I wanted to vote for DH (I don't), but I was doing so for his reaction, or because I had a secret cop read on him or something. If I just posted "vote DH", then people will say "...why are you voting for DH?". Then I'd have to back it up with something, which kind of defeats the purpose. If I said "vote DH, because I think that x thing that he did is scummy", but my real reason for doing so was because I wanted to see what he said, then I'm not really voting for my real reason, but I should give a decent reason for the vote so that people won't ask for my motivation for it, so that if I have a hidden motivation I can get the reaction I wanted. Does that make more sense?

Why should you have to respond to those that question your motives other than the person who you're trying to get a reaction from? And I have to remind you about the "lynch all liars" policy...you're liable to make things a hell of a lot worse if you give one reason then switch it up.

vollkan Post #108 (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2492632)

That's a valid theory position to take, so it makes my attack moot.

My argument's was premised on an L-1 wagon "going beyond" a normal wagon - but if you don't hold that assumption then it can't really apply to you. -2 for reasonable benefit of the doubt.

Just to comment; I love when people admit when they're wrong. It puts things in a much clearer view and prevents as many mislynches as possible, so I have to commend this. A pro-town post.

I didn't ignore that; it just didn't answer my question.

He was taking what happened seriously, but that's neither here nor there. His actions are equally consistent with a townie who has a theory problem with L-1 random wagons. The only reason a person wouldn't take it seriously is if they didn't think the wagon was a big deal.

And I believe myself that it shouldn't be a big deal in that case. No one in their right mind at all would want to hammer a complete RVS L-1 wagon, in fact, I dare all of you to find a game where someone has done that. Bonus points if that person was town.

I mean, I SUPPOSE that a townie could have a problem with it, but only a very paranoid townie, and someone who shouldn't have the kind of reaction that he did when I voted him and told him he was digging himself in a whole. It was a very anti-town reaction. ("Whatever...")

[quote="voll]It's not.

"I don't like it" is not an explanation. It doesn't tell us anything about why you don't like it.[/quote]

I didn't like it because of his anti-town reaction to my vote. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on that. I suppose I assumed that because I mentioned that before, the reasoning would carry over to this reply.

How on earth is he parrotting my views? I haven't been attacking you for bandwagoning; I've been attacking you for the specific reasons behind one vote.

Then it was a misunderstanding, especially after reading your response to UT this same post. Apologies.

As for the recent vote of Espy by q21: I understand both sides of the argument, however, I think a vote was a little extreme for the moment. My two cents. Q21 doesn't gain any scum points because of it...possibly an act of slight frustration from an engaged player.

[DemonHybrid]

And of course I would fuck up my tags.

It's not.

"I don't like it" is not an explanation. It doesn't tell us anything about why you don't like it.

I didn't like it because of his anti-town reaction to my vote. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on that. I suppose I assumed that because I mentioned that before, the reasoning would carry over to this reply.

It should read like this. Oops.

[DemonHybrid]

Esp, somehow I doubt we play like dram or like reck. It's a whole different thing (with added kittens)

I'm getting scummy vibes from Horror.
One more and that makes a whole scumteam, wheeee!

Uh, are you trying to find scummy people just for the sake of finding scummy people?

[DemonHybrid]

Esp, somehow I doubt we play like dram or like reck. It's a whole different thing (with added kittens)

I'm getting scummy vibes from Horror.
One more and that makes a whole scumteam, wheeee!

Uh, are you trying to find scummy people just for the sake of finding scummy people?

No, however since I'm not mafia I cant just randomly wagon.
Thus I am trying to find scummy people, since they are the likely scum.
Thus I'm voting you.

Seems fairly simple from my PoV :S

You're absolutely terrible at reasoning. I'm not sure if it's mostly dram or Reck, but I know it's at least a disappointment.

WHY is horror scummy?
Why am -I- scummy?
Who else is on your scum team?
What do you think of what went on early in the game with Zach and Soc?
What do you think of Soc and Zach?
What do you think of voll? Is he mostly right?
What do you think of UT's arguments?
Any additional thoughts?

Stop hiding and start answering.

[DemonHybrid]

Horror is scummy because of his attacks and responses to Zach. They are terrible, grasping, stretching. Again, and again, and again.

And of course, you don't explain any of that in detail.

You are scum because your reaction to the early game was awful. No, I'm not going to give you a step by step guide to why you are scum, you wouldn't believe me anyways and I hate making little ISO analysis. Do feel free to accept that you're obvious and selfvote.

Nice, then you're just parroting others, I suppose.

I suppose I'm going to get a "OH MY GOD UR TWISTING MEH ARGUMENTZ AND IM NUT PEROTING" but unless you -actually explain- your actions with reasoning, you just sound like you want to find people scummy just to find people scummy, and that's it.

Third question belongs to the RQS. It's too late for you, but play serious anyways

Not even a valid answer. I guess I'll reword it: Who do you think is 3rd scummiest?

Town on town. Zach is obvious, Socrate is fairly town for now. Soc's move was stupid at the very least, but humour oriented. Zach's was cautious. Somehow they're getting flak for it. This town I swear.

Which of Soc's moves were stupid? Why is Zach obvious (because I don't see it)?

Vollkan is always town, even as scum. Except for the fact he thinks Soc is scum. But that's alright, he's entailed to a twisted read, it's hard to always be right.

So, because someone talks more, has more experience and is well-known, that makes them auto-town, even if they believe the same thing scum does, because "he's entailed to a twisted read"? And you think that's justified? Really?

Untod Tripod hasn't stood out to me, I'll do a reread of him later.

Him talking has comprised almost all of pages 4 and 5, and you don't have any info on him? So, you completely tunneled me without reading the whole thread, is what you're saying.

No, I have no additional things to say. Feel free so ask more things though, so I can irritably respond to your attempts at appearing town <3

Have fun.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, I find this ridiculous because you're acting too scummy for words, so I don't know if you're just being dickish and bored VT town or if you're really THAT BAD at being scum, so I'm not sure at what to do here.

[DemonHybrid]

Last 2 posts of page 4, the first half of page 5.

Perhaps not the majority, but a big chunk of it; it's not like you can just miss it, especially if your primary target has been arguing with them.

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod:

Vote count please

[DemonHybrid]

Oh yeah, and prod YoshiX, too, please.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm interested on Reck/Dram's thoughts on vollkan.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and I missed your other question:

An example from -any- non-themed game, I'd say, is legit. I'm just curious to see if there really HAS been a quickhammer on an RVS wagon before, because I find it so hard to believe.

[DemonHybrid]

Newbie 718 - Vamparific was quicklynched on page 1 of Day 1. The hammer was cast by a townie.
Newbie 720 - Vamparific was quicklynched on page 4 of Day 1. The hammer was cast by a mafioso.

Vamparific got a title for it (Noose Magnet) so that's how I remembered.

Well, color me fucking surprised.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

.

Consider this my apology to Zach.

Vote: Reckamonic

Soc would have been voted, but I cannot overlook Reck's recent trainwreck of a response to me. I might consider unvoting if he actually stops being stubborn and starts putting together reasoning, but it was this that pretty much sealed it for me after further thought:

Vollkan is always town, even as scum. Except for the fact he thinks Soc is scum. But that's alright, he's entailed to a twisted read, it's hard to always be right.

So, because someone talks more, has more experience and is well-known, that makes them auto-town, even if they believe the same thing scum does, because "he's entailed to a twisted read"? And you think that's justified? Really?

I'm really hoping he's not just a bored VT...there seems to be more and more everyday =|

Preview edit: Because vollkan has put out VERY good points and I want to know what his stance is on them. So far he's told me nothing about his POINTS.

[DemonHybrid]

the point of the game is to find the scum, of course I'm looking for scummy people in order to lynch them. Im not going to spoon feed you why you are scum. If you are curious look at your own ISO, I don't do pbpa except when strongly irritated by an idiotic town. Don't worry, were getting there and you'll get lynched soon enough.
Also, you can't accuse me of parroting and nit giving reasons in the same post, it's contradictory. If you're going to accuse me say something that makes sense.

You're parroting on others suspicions of me without giving ONE reason. Arrogant and worthless posting from you with no logic backing. All you've done is said "UR SCUM" without saying anything else. Derp?

I'd probably say q21. Admittably I'm more inclined to find people scummy individually than as a group, so until one is lynched it's hard to make links.

So, why is he scummyish to you over everyone else?

Oh..right, you aren't going to answer that.

I hope this isn't a serious question... The l-1 vote is obviously what I'm referring to here. Zach is town because his posts exhume a feel of genuine town incredulity, like literally all of them. Best way to explain

The L-1 vote and not asking Scott for reasons why Scott voted him for it? What are your thoughts on that?

By the way, until you link examples of why you think Zach is town, I'll assume that it's buddying, because, once again, there's absolutely no reasoning to back it.

don't shove so many words in my mouth at once I'm going to choke. He is town because his posts are well made, clear and to the point. He is town because he is being honest. Town has no motivation to be sneaky and vollkan's posts are super non-sneaky.

The fact he has experience or is known is completely irrelevant

and the fact you just tried to push this crap on me just makes me more sure of my read.

Vollkan is always town, even as scum. Except for the fact he thinks Soc is scum. But that's alright, he's entailed to a twisted read, it's hard to always be right.

Is that so. Also, polly want a cracker? Or are you going to give examples? How do you know that he's honest?

again, you're bullshitting bout UT. He posted 1 time on page 4 and 3 on page 5. Hardly a meaningful contribution. Also, 60% of his contribution are quote war with you. I usually skip those, they are tedious. As an add-on to that, if you can't make a concise post I WILL skip your next retort ( or dump it in my hydra's lap)


In conclusion, you just laid a vote based on a complete twist of my comment, congrats

Except that I had a pretty great back-and-forth with UT, and the fact that you'd completely skip that to just attack me shows that you don't really give a shit about how you attack me...you just want me dead. I think there's a term for that.

Um....what's it called...Runneling? No....Sunneling? Damn, I'm so close...oh well, maybe I'll get it sometime later, though I'm just gonna lose sleep over it.

[DemonHybrid]

Oops, fucked up tags again.

Vollkan is always town, even as scum. Except for the fact he thinks Soc is scum. But that's alright, he's entailed to a twisted read, it's hard to always be right.

Is that so. Also, polly want a cracker? Or are you going to give examples? How do you know that he's honest?

[DemonHybrid]

I wouldn't lay off Zach. From the snippets of the game i have paid attention to he isn't looking very good. I get the feeling HD is town. He played like this as town the last time I played with him albiet with less long posts for the most part. He ended up being town.

What happened to your readthrough? Curious.

I'm unvoting Zach because my primary means of suspecting him has been dashed (his unvote off of Al), however, I'm still iffy about his demeanor. He's definitely not AS scummy as he was before to me, though.

Preview edit:

oh fuck it this is gonna need more than an edit.

[DemonHybrid]

It is late, I am sleepy.
MAYBE tomorrow, or whenever other head wakes up and feels like it, because I made it pretty clear that I hate doing pbpa.
How hard would it be for you to check his iso? I know it's bad, but that's the point really.

It's dramonic that you're calling a VI, FYI.

Jesus, this shocks me. I was pretty sure it was Reck I was talking to.

Anyway, I digress.

1. The term you want is "pretty certain he's got scum" btw, DH

2. Your back and forth with UT was not great, it was actually pretty awful
3. Stop using the word parroting if you can't use it properly
4. Your way of posting condemns you, I said that already
5. You don't need a reason to vote someone who puts peops at l-1 in rvs
6. If I'm not making a case for my scum reads, what twisted thinking makes you think I'll make one for my town reads?
7. There is a previous button, use it because that last part Is undecipherable
8. eDIT: are you familiar with the concept of innocent until proven guilty? Better question is what makes you think he isn't?

Reedit: that's kinda sad

1. More baseless attacks
2. More reasonless badgering. Why is it so bad? It should have given you plenty of info if you think that I'm scum and if you really cared about making a case on me, you should have used it, right?
3. Parroting: Taking others' views and using it without adding reasoning of your own. So....derp?
4. Yeah...you said that, again with no reasoning. So, according to you, I'm scum because you don't like the way I post, but you like vollkan's way of posting. Right? Oh right....you never said that...even though you contradicted yourself.
5. Um....you do realized that it was SOCRATES that asked for reasons on his vote then, right? Why doesn't he look scummy to you in this case?
6. Whatever sliver of hope you have to hang onto the very last ounce of pro-townliness in you?
7. Oops, I don't really care, deal with it. I mess up tags sometimes.
8. There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. You completely missed my point; WHY voll? If he completely agrees with me of my view on Soc, but agrees in a different way, then why aren't you saying I am innocent until "proven" guilty (which, by the way, you haven't proven a thing)? Oh right, because you don't care about reasoning.

This is absolutely stunning

[DemonHybrid]

FoS: DH

Your tone is scummy.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Stop and take a look for a second, Espy. Seriously? My tone?

Here, I invite you to play Where's Waldo. In this case, Waldo is Reckamonic's reasoning on me. If you find it, I'll give you a cookie.

It's not ONLY frustrating and headache-inducing, it's making me angry now.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm really hoping he's not just a bored VT...there seems to be more and more everyday =|

I seem bored?

I'm really hoping Reckamonic isn't just a bored VT. You misunderstood.

Preview edit: Because vollkan has put out VERY good points and I want to know what his stance is on them. So far he's told me nothing about his POINTS.

Are you referring to my numbering points here?

Should have been more clear here:

Your points a.k.a arguments, not your numbering system.

[DemonHybrid]

What makes his tone scummy?

It was making a mockery of the legitimate questions asked. Townsfolk should either say they aren't going to answer or answer straight.

Having a mocking tone doesn't mean I'm not answering straight. Please sharpen up, because I'm not liking where you're going with this argument twisting.

[DemonHybrid]

From my time playing mafia non stop I kinda know what tones are inherently scummy. Being mocking and

beating around the bush

isn't townie play. I'm not saying that you can't be town but I am saying that you shouldn't be mocking people because it gives the impression that you are better than the person you are answering. I mindset that is a symptom of being in the informed minority.

Please find examples of the bolded statement.

You know, where I've "beaten around the bush".

You do know that I'm DEMONHYBRID and

NOT

Reckamonic, right?

[DemonHybrid]

No, beating around the bush means that you talked about the point and never touched on it.

http://www.goenglish.com/beatingaroundthebush.asp

I've stated my views very clearly. In a mocking tone, because I'm sick of him making baseless arguments against me and wasting my time.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: "No, beating around the bush means that you talked about the point and never touched on it."

Talking about the point in general but never stating views or facts, to go in depth.

[DemonHybrid]

them not him.

The use I stated was the way I meant it and use it.

Why are you getting angry at a 'bad' case anyway? That just incriminates you furthur.

I use him out of force of habit.

And if you meant to use "beating around the bush" that way, then you're wrong.

And I'm getting angry/frustrated at an absolutely terrible case because it's a waste of time to respond to it. If I don't, people like you will start to believe it because I'm -not- responding to it. It's completely baseless.

I'm sure that because I'm not Reck or dramonic, if I did the same thing they did, I would be lynched in a heartbeat. That also has something to do with it.

[DemonHybrid]

Ever heard of a thing called meta?

No, not at all.

Hypocrite. Stop blaming me for being sarcastic/mocking and then turn around and do it yourself. This exchange is stupid and pointless and I'm dropping the argument.

[DemonHybrid]

Reck/Dram, can you guys stay consistent, please?

[DemonHybrid]

Totally called for.

How about when you actually enter in a fucking game under one account you stop talking like a fucking schizo, would that be alright, buddy? Decide on a viewpoint then express it that way.

I'm not going to report this post because I don't take shit to heart, but I'm not responsible for what the mod does. /shrug

[DemonHybrid]

SHUT. THE FUCK. UP.

I LITERALLY *JUST* GOT DONE EXPLAINING THAT.
MY GOD WHAT A STUPID POST.

I'd say that's somewhat of a personal attack unbecoming of the spirit of the game. But hey, all the power to you; I don't like reporting people, but I'm just warning you that the mod might not be so lenient.

By the way, post #193 was talking about what you do in the future. Absolutely no reason to go off like you did.

[DemonHybrid]

Back from my V/LA. I don't feel like catching up right now.

(I wonder who noticed that I wasn't around for the last 6 or so pages.)

Somewhat. I don't remember you saying you were going V/LA though.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, I know.

I was responding to him wondering if anyone caught it. I saw his sig, but not until he posted saying he was back. Just thought I'd mention it.

Carry on =P

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, I know.

I was responding to him wondering if anyone caught it. I saw his sig, but not until he posted saying he was back. Just thought I'd mention it.

Carry on =P

Ah. Sorry for ruining it.

No no:

He wondered if anyone caught his V/LA

I said I didn't, but I didn't remember knowing whether or not he had posted a V/LA post. <----I posted this knowing that he had V/LA in his sig.

That's basically it. Doesn't affect the game or anything.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm sure that because I'm not Reck or dramonic, if I did the same thing they did, I would be lynched in a heartbeat. That also has something to do with it.

AtE
had to say it.

So, a point made on meta of you two with reasoning to back it up is AtE? Where in that statement did I invoke peoples' emotions in order to persuade them to do something?

Would you not say that if I attacked you with baseless accusations, I'd be lynched by now? Because you guys have been on the site longer, it has a lot to do with it. I mean look at yourself, you're still alive. Perhaps it's due to the fact that I'm new or not as known as you guys, but I'm very sure that if I was in your position, I'd be dead by now. That's not really tugging on emotions OR giving an opinion; it's me stating probabilities.

[DemonHybrid]

I would still wonder what you meant by "comprimised".

Him talking has comp

ris

ed almost all of pages 4 and 5, and you don't have any info on him? So, you completely tunneled me without reading the whole thread, is what you're saying.

Misunderstanding alert!

So, all I got from your post is that you agree that early game confident reads is scummy, which is pretty much pure opinion (you really don't know what anyone's up to during RVS) and that Reckamonic just be trollin' me.

See my reply to Espy. Some people can make others believe the -worst- cases due to a lack of reply.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, yes. I do post a lot. From my wiki:

"My playstyle: It's the same whether I'm town, scum or third party: I ask a lot of questions, I answer everything asked of me, and I lightly suspect a lot of things."

[DemonHybrid]

Also Reckamonic's recent "AtE" post reminds me of this.

I do agree that it's a nulltell. I'm still having trouble trying to figure out if Reckamonic is a VT or is really REALLY terrible scum.

[DemonHybrid]

Did you mean to say VT?

Yeah.

[DemonHybrid]

So, Reckamonic is a vanilla townie or scum? Why can't he be a power role?

I have a VERY VERY VERY long history of really really arrogant people being Vanilla Townies. It's been the case in -every game- that I've been in.

View my wiki again. Soraville, it was Jack. Scorehero Mafia 3, Raikiri. Scorehero On Tour, Fugitive. Vanillaside: a LOT of townies.

I think it has either to do with how "boring" VT can be to a lot of people or that the only weapon they feel they have is pressure. Sometimes they take it to heights unimaginable.

It's more of a hunch than anything else, but it seems to follow such a strict pattern that I feel like I can't ignore it again.

[DemonHybrid]

I guess to follow up, those that have power roles try their hardest to stay out of the firefight. They don't want to risk looking TOO scummy or TOO town. Therefore, those that engage themselves in antagonistic conversation are either scum trying to fit in, people with nothing to hide, or REALLY ballsy PRs (a lower chance of this).

I even called it in Soraville. Look at my last post before my lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

Nononono. I'm not saying they're all VIs....just arrogant. Stuff like

"This guy should be lynched. Just cause. Lynch this scum." with little to no reasoning is just pure pressure. Why call that much attention to yourself if you're a PR?

Being arrogant and being a VI isn't mutually inclusive.

I'm not making a full assumption anyway. Notice how I said Reck could either be scum trying to fit in or pin blame, whatever OR he could be a vanilla townie. I can't decide right now.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: I missed your point.

I suppose that I'm assuming a little too much that he could be ONLY scum or a VT, but like I said; strict pattern. It's almost compelling to think of such.

I'll try to keep all options open though.

Preview Edit: Sorry. Haha I was just getting to that.

[DemonHybrid]

So, there's a little too much grey area with my Reck vote to keep it on him after my back and forth with Alduskkel.

Unvote

Vote pending Socrates' reply. I want to see what he thinks of everything so far.

[DemonHybrid]

Wait, what? All I was suggesting was that instead of Reckamonic being scum or vanilla town, he could be scum or town. Come to think of it, he could be a third party for all we know.

How did that make you unvote?

I've actually been thinking about it for a little while, especially after doing a quick skim through my games around the time that I mentioned them. I'm just not that certain of him being scum quite yet, if at all in the future. It certainly doesn't warrant a full vote, because if anything, I still view Soc as being somewhat more scummy than he is at this point.

[DemonHybrid]

True VIs are that way because of their personality, and regardless of their role.

I don't know why you're so stubborn on this point. It's not hard to see that Reckamonic COULD be a PR, but you just want to go ahead and rule it out.

By the way,

Sure, true VIs are like that. I've skimmed quite a few games and I have a good feeling of how the regulars act in certain situations. If there's someone who's usually calm but acts randomly arrogant in a certain game, that can't just be coincidence or only due to their personality.

[DemonHybrid]

Just to clarify #230, it's based on my feelings that he could be arrogant town (vanilla or not) over scum based on my past experiences. I'm not ready to vote him.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2496150

This is not a new thing. Voting him for being arrogant won't get anyone anywhere, and I think the true culprits are the ones sitting back and watching everything with popcorn in their hands.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not sure I follow you then.

Are you suggesting that I am arguing without giving my "opinion" about who is town or scum? (I say this because it's a complaint I often get from people)

I'm lost.

It's simply this:

You have good arguments and make good cases. I want to know Reck's thoughts on them.

Reck said "Oh, well voll is town. Just cause.", obviously not going into detail about your good arguments/good cases.

[DemonHybrid]

By the by, on the personal attacking stuff, I am pretty lenient about that if it's just up to me, though if anyone is bothered/offended by it, please don't hesitate to tell me, and I can take care of it accordingly.

I definitely want less of it, though. If I see much more of it, I will start modkilling.

I'm cool with it, just as an FYI.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry; I'm catching up late tonight. A single game completely melted my brain last night and I have classes until 9 tonight.

[DemonHybrid]

You have no idea how painful it was for us to finally sit down and read through all of DH's posts. My god man.

Anyway.
He votes Zach presumably for preventing a quickhammer. Also, how can he yell at us for not providing evidence for our scum reads, when he calls Socrates & Zach scumbuddies with no reasoning as well.

Because I gave reasoning later. Derp. However, you're shaping up to be quite the arrogant VT. This comes into play later.

This is bullshit. Not necessarily scummy, just fucking stupid.

That's cool. You mention that 98% of my content is ad hom later on, and that I'm a hypocrite. Cool story, bro.

Sidenote, this is why Zachrulez is town.

I'd like to say that I have a hunch that one of Socrates and DH is definitely scum. They're not scum together, because their assault on each other at the start of D1 is too genuine for them to be bussing... but one of them is scum.

Back to it... just read this post. Seriously. It's beyond stupid and it's just grasping at straws.

But out of the realm of impossibility? Did Scott deny this?

Until he does, I invite you to take this point and hit yourself in the face with it.

Aaaand, we're back with DH passively setting up to jump on Zach's wagon. Feeling a little unsure about your Socrates attack?

Uh, I was already voting Zach, so I'm not sure what you mean about this.

And I've never been unsure about my Soc suspicions, so I don't understand why you'd associate this post with Soc.

PS, once again, DH says his vote without reason was more or less reaction fishing, which is all mildly hilarious given his assault on us. His point about town being more likely to forget where their vote is is just really really really terrible. Also, why the HELL is DH so willing to trust that Scott had some plan with his vote?

My "assault" on you was more of a legitimate defense against your pointless attacks.

Why is the thought that town forgetting where their vote is terrible? Scum's more wary of how close they are to death because they have less to worry about. When you're town, you're more concerned with the arguments and less about how many people are voting whoever, so it's not out of the realm of probability that town would forget the votecount more than scum would. Can you disprove this?

I trust Scott had some plan with his vote NOW because he never denied it. I trusted Scott had some plan before because...well, I felt it was obvious.

And volkan is town because he's always town. That's about as good of a reason you can get. Untrod Tripod does a good job of dismantling DH's post 100 with his post 102.

1. I remember you saying that vollkan is town because of his content.....

......so....what?

Please explain why UT "dismantled" my post in detail instead of throwing a weak point onto it.

DH's jump onto us is just bad. He's whining about not giving reasoning for voting, which is COMPLETELY FUCKING HYPOCRITICAL.

Cool, well, by this part, I had given reasons for all of my actions. You flat out refused to ever do. And here you are, giving reasons.

You aren't consistent. Stop being anti-town.

1. Would also like to point out 98% of DH's posts are just ad hom ad hom ad hom ad hom ad hom. 2. Which makes his OMG RECKAMONIC IS GETTING MODKILLED thing just fucking awful. 3. His entire point that we're only not getting lynched because we've been around longer is fucking awful. Do we really need to explain WHY these things are awful? It's pretty self-evident.

1. Funny....just look at your ISO, man. I shouldn't have to go further with this point. Blaming me for using ad hom is mind numbing.
2. I was warning you not to use personal attacks. I'd rather you NOT get modkilled.
3. No, I'm saying that if I did what you did, without having the same status on the site as you do, I'd be lynched in an instant. Just a minor point....and didn't you JUST say that most of my arguments were ad hom in the SAME paragraph? What's with the hypocrisy?

This false dichotomy where he says we have to be either VT or scum is also bullshit and based in COMPLETE NOTHINGNESS. HOW ABOUT SOME ACTUAL SUPPORT FOR THAT THAT ISN'T JUST HEARSAY?

It's cute how quickly he backs off of us though.

Hearsay =/= past experiences. Wrong usage of the english language to pin me as scummy. Using past experiences in your logic is absolutely appropriate.

Nothing has changed; I've always thought you were either VT or scum. Could you be a PR? Maybe, but I'm not betting on it this case.

Another ridiculous compilation. You just basically parroted others' arguments, man. Everything that wasn't parroted was baseless or ad hom.

[DemonHybrid]

You really have no clue as to what Ad Hom means, do you?

Attacking the speaker to debunk an argument.

[DemonHybrid]

Another ridiculous compilation. You just basically parroted others' arguments, man.

I'm curious as to seeing any concrete proof of this from you.

All of your arguments have just copied others; my lack of my reasoning when voting Zach, the VT/scum thing, why I trust Scott so much, etc.

Anything new that you brought up was a "this is a stupid argument because stupid" type of argument. Point out anything in your argument that is new and actually has reasoning to back it up, please.

Preview Edit: So, saying "This is untrue because DH is just being fucking stupid" isn't ad-hom? Which you've done a few times, actually.

[DemonHybrid]

Basically, my point is:

My defense against you consisted of asking you where the fuck your reasoning is.

Your attack against me is "DH is scummy scum because scum."

"OKAY I GUESS I'LL GIVE REASONS. This is stupid, this is terrible, this is bad."

Me: "But why?"

"AD HOM."

It's ridiculous.

[DemonHybrid]

All of your arguments have just copied others; my lack of my reasoning when voting Zach, the VT/scum thing, why I trust Scott so much, etc.

proof?

Dude, it's like 80% of the whole game. I only have so much time to play mafia today. Use your eyes. You aren't the first person to questioning my initial lack of Zach vote reasoning (Zach himself argued this with me, ISO him) or to ask me about the VT/scum thing (Aldusskel, ISO him) or why I trust Scott so much (Soc, I believe, talked to me about this: ISO him.)

Preview Edit: So, saying "This is untrue because DH is just being fucking stupid" isn't ad-hom? Which you've done a few times, actually.

This is false, prove me wrong.[/quote]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2497469

I suppose that's the closest you've come; I felt between our back and forth that you did use ad hom against me but I suppose I was mistaken in this case.

It may have been inane babble, but it was constructed very carefully.

I'm still waiting to see your response to most of my points though, especially now that voll is town because he's always town and before, it was this:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2496515

I retract my ad-hom statement. Doesn't change the argument. And doesn't change the fact that I didn't use it.

[DemonHybrid]

Maemuki, thoughts on the game so far?

[DemonHybrid]

Reading her wiki. Chronic lurker, huh?

This is going to be a long game...

[DemonHybrid]

That was 35355466 years ago. You shouldn't judge people you've never played with.

Reeeeeading.

Yay!

[DemonHybrid]

Wait... did you honestly just attack him for finally providing the reasoning we've all been asking for? Seriously? I have no issue with you countering the actual reasons, but attacking the fact that he supplied them reeks of desperation.

What?

Read. That wasn't an attack. I'm just saying that he did the exact same thing as me and then called me a hypocrite for it. It was a defense telling him that he's finding the smallest things scummy and that it's anti-town.

I don't see how that's any different than what I've been saying.

[DemonHybrid]

Wait... did you honestly just attack him for finally providing the reasoning we've all been asking for? Seriously? I have no issue with you countering the actual reasons, but attacking the fact that he supplied them reeks of desperation.

What?

Read. That wasn't an attack. I'm just saying that he did the exact same thing as me and then called me a hypocrite for it. It was a defense telling him that he's finding the smallest things scummy and that it's anti-town.

I don't see how that's any different than what I've been saying.

EBWOP: Rather, the focus is on the fact that I think it's hypocritical but ANTI-TOWN, not scummy. Like I said, I think he's just a stubborn VT at this point. You could argue against that like Alduskkel did, but it's a giant hunch of mine.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm on the no-voting list.

fixed

[DemonHybrid]

Hm....drshotty doesn't really have a good track record of making good arguments. Admitted "I play VI" type player.

I'm giving you until midnight EST to explain your vote, shotty, before I'll agree to policy lynching your spot. I can see where everyone gets their suspicions from Espy and you haven't done much to help yourself out.

[DemonHybrid]

He's posting elsewhere.

Ugh.

[DemonHybrid]

^^God damnit I said I was going to read it today and I'm on page 4 of this game right now, give me time man

I told you, you have till midnight. Good to see that you acknowledge the game's existence, however.

[DemonHybrid]

What about vollkan?

[DemonHybrid]

Also, Reck?

You never explained your vote on him. Still waiting on that explanation...not any others.

[DemonHybrid]

You don't put your vote on someone just to say "Hey, I'm here".

Vote:drmyshottyizsik

Reason isn't good enough. I feel like Reck was your "fallback" suspicion, and now that you made up a case, you don't need a case against him anymore.

[DemonHybrid]

no I always pick a random person to vote for when I join a game, notice how I in no way put him in danger of a mislynch

I never said you put in him danger of a mislynch. What does that have to do with anything?

[DemonHybrid]

Maemuki's starting to look a bit suspicious to me. UT's been making a lot of sense and, while I don't exactly fully agree with him, I wouldn't say ANYTHING about him being "opportunistic".

[DemonHybrid]

And I'm voting shotty.

Sigh...I'll get better at this eventually.

[DemonHybrid]

If you guys want, I can go into a question session here and a claim, since the deadline's pretty close and the wagons are pretty clear cut. Shotty should also be one of the main focuses of attention as well, since, like I said, deadline is tomorrow.

There's a lot of "DemonHybrid should be lynched" being thrown around, however, I don't think you guys are really focused with your scumhunting. I presume that I'm being voted because...well, Reck being Reck, a second vote is because I said Reck is "not being consistent" but anti-town and not scum, and a third because of my attempt to catch the scum on the Alduskkel wagon.

I don't really know what else to tell you other than that's indicative of being a pro-active scumhunter, keeping all options open and....well, someone tunneling me to death.

Ask for a claim if you seriously are considering putting me up for a lynch, I'm not going to give scum the leg-up on us this early in the game just for me to stick around and hinder the town later on due to whatever reason.

[DemonHybrid]

I need to ISO horror. To be completely honest, I haven't kept up with anyone but vollkan/UT/Reck's arguments. The whole zach vs horrordude exchange was just completely lost on me.

[DemonHybrid]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=500
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=325
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=475
if you want any other meta reads on me I've got like 15 completed games

By the way,

Unvote

because of this. No reason to keep a vote on shotty.

As far as horrordude goes....I'm still looking at him closely.

I don't like this post:

Oh, so I can be townie until I suspect you... I get it now. And you can have a town read on Zach because of some early comments I suppose, but his late game play has been scummy as hell, so yeah that doesn't work with me.

Really?! Really?! Your entire attack on me has been based on my early play. This is just ridiculous. Lynch nao plz.

It STARTED with your early play. Your fail excuses and such in the late game is what sealed it in for me.

It seems like a cop-out, not genuine at all. Zach IS right, you know, and you can't justify an argument by saying "......well....uh, YEAH, you fail, so that's why you're scummy" after you've been caught. This game's been the hardest to get reads from out of every game I've played, but I've felt more than anything else that the Zach vs. HD argument is definitely a town vs scum quarrel, so in light of that:

Vote: horrordude

[DemonHybrid]

L-1, just a reminder. Don't try to be a badass and quickhammer before HD has his say.

[DemonHybrid]

By the mod's ruleset, that person with the most votes is lynched, so it doesn't matter whether horror is hammered or not, presently he will be lynched at deadline.

^ This...

Why so hasty, q21?

[DemonHybrid]

Because game wise its better to have the full compliment of players commit to the lynch rather than have the mod do it for you. Even if the last vote is due to the looming deadline, its still more useful than the cop-out that is a mod completed lynch.

How is waiting for more information from a potential lynchee and letting the deadline end the day a "cop-out"?

[DemonHybrid]

Because I don't see Horror having any potential worhtwhile information to wait for. The only thing worth listening to would be a role claim... but even then there may not be enough people around to change votes an save him.

You don't want to hear his last words? His read list? Reactions to various votes?

[DemonHybrid]

Because I don't see Horror having any potential worhtwhile information to wait for. The only thing worth listening to would be a role claim... but even then there may not be enough people around to change votes an save him.

You don't want to hear his last words? His read list? Reactions to various votes?

As a townie he shouldn't be waiting until his "last words" to provide his reads. As scum (which I view as more likely at the moment) I don't particularly care what else might say.

You don't? What about possible connections to his reads if he is scum? What if he slips?

I'm getting rather suspicious of you, q21. This is all extremely valuable to town, or at least, valuable enough to make some sort of difference.

[DemonHybrid]

Horrordude? Nothing?

You have like 15 more minutes left.

[DemonHybrid]

ok so now we have one sk left right?

*sigh*

Why do you pride yourself on being a VI?

[DemonHybrid]

You're like the most out of the loop player I've ever met, shotty. Goons don't die if the godfather does.

Anyway, going purely on minimal communication with horror, the people who he's lightly questioned or just blatantly ignored are Scott Brosius, Alduskkel and Maemuki. He's had some sort of meaningful conversation with everyone else.

I'm willing to bet at least one of these guys are mafia due to their relation to horror (or lack of). But I can't choose who.

[DemonHybrid]

so then what is a god father vs a goon?

Wow, what?

Have you been drinking?

[DemonHybrid]

Godfather: They show up as innocent to a cop.

Goon: They don't do anything; they're just like a Vanilla Mafia.

I seriously can't believe I'm explaining this to you right now.

[DemonHybrid]

zach i still think you

You can't even write a complete sentence.

[DemonHybrid]

When all else fails, pick out who you think is town then vote the others.

vollkan has been EXTREMELY AWESOME at pushing people for information.
Reck is a frustrated and bored townie.
shotty is just.....no.
Zach is okay. Horrordude's attempt to push him to a lynch kinda clears him; no mafioso would go as far as he did to try to kill off their own member, they have nothing to gain from it.
Untrod's been more reactive than pro-active, but he hasn't done anything particularly scummy, nor has he fell short of pushing people for information.

That leaves Alduskkel, Scott, Socrates and Maemuki.

Alduskkel is the most townish of the bunch, he's been asking some questions, but there may have been some funny business going on with his wagon...maybe Zach was the one scared of a quicklynch, but maybe Scott was trying to distract the wagon by voting Soc...could this mean that Scott and Al are buddies? I'm not willing to act or push people for info on the subject, it's extremely WIFOMey and worthless.

Scott has been lurky, and really has nothing to show for his absence. He's had a lot of time...plus, like I said, Al's wagon and his vote on Soc kinda irks me now.

Socrates has also been lurky lately. Him asking for reasons to Scott's vote is sorta null now that I'm reading back and seeing all of the connections everyone has had with each other. I'd say he's the second-least scummiest out of the four, but not completely off the hook.

Mae has almost no info to her name right now. She placed an opportunistic vote on Reck after giving a somewhat useless scumlist (Null read this, Null read that, etc). Tries to switch suspicion onto UT, fails and backtracks. She avoids voting horrordude at the end even after unvoting, so close to the deadline too.

Vote: Maemuki

Let's go with this.

[DemonHybrid]

I'd say that Scott and Mae are the last two mafioso, just in case you guys wanted the full read list.

[DemonHybrid]

Do you mean you think he is null (ie. I have him at 50) or do you actually think he is town-y?

He's townish to me. Alduskk doesn't agree on why I find him town....but to each their own, I suppose.

I have to read back over this to remember. But, a question if you do, was HD looking endangered at the time he pushed Zach?

Not at the start, no.

[DemonHybrid]

*skims*

Way to go guys.

*sigh* I just don't feel this game anymore. If you want to lynch me, go ahead

Okay. We'd be happy to.

[DemonHybrid]

vollkan's not voting ^^

It's okay, you're getting the hang of this =)

Ugh, thanks. I wonder if I'll ever have a perfect vote count

[DemonHybrid]

MAEMUKI WOULD YOU LIKE TO AT LEAST ATTEMPT DEFENDING YOURSELF?

This post is fishy.

She already said she doesn't care...are you coaching her?

[DemonHybrid]

The content.

And yes, that would be a shame, but that's clear and legitimate AtE when a good case was presented against her. Lets lynch her and get it over with and not dick around with a replacement.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: ".....was presented against her. I don't think she's town, so lets lynch her and get it over with..."

I'm multitasking with homework, a lot of the stuff I say isn't going to make sense.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't like the speculation that scum wouldn't bus a godfather.

How is shotty scummy and just not confused?

Why did you quote Al and suspect his post, but not explain more and go off on other people?

Unvote, Vote: Scott Brosius

I'm confident of a Maemuki/SB scum team.

[DemonHybrid]

Please give me even one reason why having a replacement is undesirable.

I'm pretty confident we've caught scum in Maemuki from her behavior and logic so far and I'd rather not have a smooth talker come in and feed us bull and just make things harder to get the lynch happening. A different person does not a different alignment make.

[DemonHybrid]

Stuff like tunneling people and looking town by pure aggression. Really long wall posts. That kind of thing. Town has a terrrrible habit of completely forgetting about the player pre-replacement and what they did and going off of what the new player has done.

If Maemuki's spot is looking scummy right now, then it should be done away with right now or get ready for a ton of distraction.

[DemonHybrid]

Maemuki or Scott. I don't see any other logical lynch, so pick one, everyone. Both terribly lurky, both with scummy connections and both extremely wishy-washy/unsure with often null reads.

[DemonHybrid]

Reck, I've seen plenty of games where a scum slot has done the following:

1. Person A gets role PM (the scumslot)
2. Person A looks scummy as hell. Is about to be lynched. Has a lot of suspicion against him.
3. Person A gives up and passes it on to Person B.
4. Person B tunnels people, makes himself look town and completely turn the tables. Yay, scum win!

Have you forgotten what happened in Vanillaside, Reck? RedCoyote totally turned the Korts suspicion around. (I'm assuming I -am- talking to Reckoner)

[DemonHybrid]

Read #460.

SB is the bigger wagon and I don't care which of Maemuki/SB dies. You're damn skippy I'll switch to Mae if she gets close to a lynch or is at least on her way. I won't touch anyone else cause my scumdar's freaking the hell out when I point it into the direction of those two.

[DemonHybrid]

Lynch all lurkers is successful some of the time.
Lynch all lurkers is a failure some of the time.

She's not inactive, she's choosing not to post in this thread, as stated earlier.

And she probably posted the same amount of content as Korts did.

So, are we going to make this happen before someone like Vi, RedCoyote or Mr. Flay comes in and completely wrecks town, or what? If she's scummy NOW, then why wait?

[DemonHybrid]

I like your reads. A lot. Especially about the connection between Espy and HD.

If on the VERY OFF chance that one of SB/Mae isn't scum, then shotty should die. It's almost unnatural if you don't have at least one mafia on your read-list if you are mafia yourself.

[DemonHybrid]

Frankly this day has just begun and wanting to end it so soon... well.

How is that a bad thing if Mae's pretty much incriminated at this point?

While I agree that we shouldn't forget Maemuki's scumtells if she is replaced, I don't think it's a big deal if she is.

You should read this one game we were in...it's called the Vanillaside. Say, are you familiar?

I'm going to keep using that example until people get the fact that a replacer for a scum slot could completely stall a lynch, swing momentum and decimate town. That's why they have a "Best Replacement" category in the scummies.

[DemonHybrid]

I like your reads. A lot. Especially about the connection between Espy and HD.

If on the VERY OFF chance that one of SB/Mae isn't scum, then shotty should die. It's almost unnatural if you don't have at least one mafia on your read-list if you are mafia yourself.

DMSIS needs to eat bullets tonight, regardless, if there's a vig out there. He's a complete hazard to town if he's left alive since all he'd do is continue to be a mislynch target.

Actually, on second thought, if SB flips scum, we think DMSIS is likely town.

Am I 100% agreeing with you?

Holy fuck.

[DemonHybrid]

Most players have taken one side of the wagon or the other, DH seems eager to lynch either one of us. He would be my second choice at the moment.

You think that wanting to lynch anyone out of a pool of X people depending on the amount of scum left is scummy? You know how ridiculous that sounds, right?

Your claim seems eager. Neither of you are close to a lynch yet. We're only discussing it, so why claim now?

Anyone can try to frantically disperse suspicions of buddying by claiming masons. I'm not buying it.

[DemonHybrid]

I think its less likely for scum to bus a GF (rather than a simple goon/non-scum PR WIFOM alert). So I think we can find scum in the people not voting HD. These are Ald, UT, shotty,

Maemuki

.

Scott, this was literally the LAST POST you made before #488. Now, how much sense does it make to try to hop on the suspicion train, destination: Maemafia when you know she's innocent?

It'd probably make WAY more sense if you guys never mentioned each other at all.

[DemonHybrid]

DH: There was no chance with the way the day was going that it would have ended in a lynch of someone other than us. You are delusional if you actually think that. Rather than claim 24 hrs from deadline where we would have to find someone else to lynch or still mis-lynch one of us, I figured given we were leading the current suspicions, it was better to leave time for discussion of the claim and finding another lynch candidate. If I left Mae off the list, then everyone would have been questioning why I did that which then leads to a claim as well.

I can see where you're coming with this. Let's leave it alone for now, suppose there's nothing else you could have done being backed up into a corner like that.

Unvote, Vote: drmyshottyizsik

I can support a shotty lynch in light of recent events. Don't expect him to post much; he's in like 9 games.

[DemonHybrid]

Sure, the more time the better.

[DemonHybrid]

I means turning everything weather it's scummy or not against someone and saying look they are scum because of this

Try again.

[DemonHybrid]

Yes I used the wrong acronim, but I really just posted I wasn't thinking that would be used for or against me. I just didn't remember those games.

Shotty, just make this easy for us.

Are you town or are you scum?

[DemonHybrid]

Wow DH way to fish

, and I'm town

Please explain how I was "fishing" (I'm assuming you mean rolefishing, since that's the only terminology I know that uses "fish" in the title).

[DemonHybrid]

I am having a lot of trouble building a lot of interest in this game.

The only reason I could see myself voting Shotty for is policy grounds.

vote: DemonHybrid

Same read as before? Or did something new catch your eye?

I'm curious to know if something changed for you, since you seem to be bored of this game.

[DemonHybrid]

I think Soc has me voted because he can't see the shotty case and finds me the next-scummiest or something.

Shotty is being shotty. Wagoning for no reason because he has pressure on him.

Shotty, the more you say "I'm town I swear" out of place, the scummier you look.

[DemonHybrid]

I would say that if Shotty is scum, Soc is most certainly his buddy on grounds of association and vote-hopping.

I wouldn't be surprised; shotty's not the smartest banana of the bunch and I can see him copying his buddy's vote out of desperation and lack of mafia sensibility.

[DemonHybrid]

I like 557 a lot.

And I'm really starting to not like your "points" system, voll. Zach is right in the way that it allows you to non-commit to suspicions and votes.

You're certainly not the most town in the game. Zach is.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm addressing my backing away from the Mae/Scott votes after the mason claim.

Claims mean everything. Scott clearly explained why he went with the Maemuki suspicion, and I believed it. That's all there needs to be said on the matter.

[DemonHybrid]

what exactly about vollkan's careful analysis is bad? He writes down all of his reads and states categorically whether or not they're scummy. IMO his play is super transparent. Transparency is pro-town, and we can hold him to any contradictions he makes because he assigns points to how scummy he thinks other people are.

Like I said, it allows him to non-commit and still look good. Read Zach's post, he made a great post about voll's mannerisms with committing to a vote or certain scumminess.

[DemonHybrid]

Shotty, how can Scott be town and Mae be probably scummy if they claimed masons?

Are you and vollkan scum together?

[DemonHybrid]

A SCUM MASON/TOWN MASON TEAM IN A MINI NORMAL?!?!

WHY is this joker not lynched yet?!?!?!?!

[DemonHybrid]

I HOPE to god you meant just scummy as far as her playstyle goes, shotty, I swear to god.

[DemonHybrid]

No reasoning on Zach. "Gut scum read" means you don't have to commit and not give a reason.

[DemonHybrid]

Here's a story.

One day during the summer, I was in the shed, when I found a lone wasp crawling around the floor. So I took the Black Flag and I played a little game, spraying little squirts at said wasp. He would dodge it and then fly a few feet to the next corner, where I would squirt at him again. He would dodge that and fly to another corner; he couldn't go back to an original corner cause it was soaked with wasp poison. I kept doing this for about a minute until he really had nowhere to go. I then shot him dead in the face with it.

Want to know how similar this situation is to that day, shotty?

[DemonHybrid]

I really just get a scum vibe from almost every thing he says.
Also Everyone else seems town or null

So, here's another Black Flag spray.

Scum say that they get "eh, a lot of town or null" reads on everyone except for the person who they tunnel. I do it a lot as scum. You should have a lot to say about everyone.

*tssss.*

[DemonHybrid]

But you have no reason. It's just "gut".

[DemonHybrid]

no i posted a case a few pages back

Then why is he "gut"? =P

[DemonHybrid]

I actually completely forgot about your case on Zach earlier...hence why I said you have no reasoning on him, cause I went on your recent list.

[DemonHybrid]

Scum, I just have this gut scum reading and

I just can't explain why.

He is good but scum.

[DemonHybrid]

How perfect is it that awesome face is looking at the bolded statement?

I totally didn't plan that.

[DemonHybrid]

That was really nice, no lie.

I know, right? ^_^

So, you going to vote yourself and help us out? =)

[DemonHybrid]

No I got yelled at last time I self hammered as town. Ask ZeroFang about it.

I know, but you're scum now. Completely different story.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and before we lynch you, tell us more about what you think about vollkan. Make a +town case on him.

[DemonHybrid]

I think you are town sir

, I thought you were scum at first glance, but when I reread I find you to be almost the one keeping this thread alive with a great deal of scum hunting.

So, you aren't sure about vollkan being town?

[DemonHybrid]

Ok so this may sound wierd but I am having a hard time reading him. He is either super scum or super town

But you just said that you think he's town. Are you having doubts now that I'm asking you to post a +town case on him?

[DemonHybrid]

Because I would put him as town right now, but I know if I looked at it differently I could easily think other wise

You're supposed to look at people from all different lights. Not so much to encourage WIFOM, but to get a good 360 view of someone before you post an overall read and to not think linear. That loses games.

So, are you putting vollkan in a linear town light instead of looking at all possible angles (what a good scumhunter does)?

[DemonHybrid]

So...you're saying he's scum now?

[DemonHybrid]

No further questions. Let us know what you think when you can.

[DemonHybrid]

Somehow I emerged from the last page and a half with my sanity intact.

The radiation from my super pressure cooker can harm others.

I should have warned everyone.

[DemonHybrid]

Shotty. The vollkan case.

[DemonHybrid]

ok + 3 town points for his posts 1-5 he ofers great insight and destroys a quick lynch.
and I get a total of +2 town points by the end of his ISO
Vullcan is IMO town.
He scum hunts really well.
He goes all out, isn't afraid of making enimies, and asks all of the right questions

...that's your town ISO?

Oy.

[DemonHybrid]

He's L-1.

I'm not sure he claimed and I don't really care, just hammer him.

[DemonHybrid]

The case pretty much writes itself, shotty.

Can someone grab the Black Flag for me? We got a wasp we need to exterminate.

[DemonHybrid]

It's not policy! You're going back and forth with your cases and reads, you're buddying like crazy, you're contradicting yourself and you need to die.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote yourself.

[DemonHybrid]

Like I said, the case wrote itself.

If you want to live, post an extensive researched defense WITH EVIDENCE and reasoning for most of the actions that you have done and why you should live.

[DemonHybrid]

You can explain why you were so wishy-washy with your view on vollkan, why you couldn't explain your zach vote when you had posted a huge-ass case on him when you replaced him and why you voted me with no reasoning.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: *when you replaced in, sorry

[DemonHybrid]

You can explain why you were so wishy-washy with your view on vollkan, why you couldn't explain your zach vote when you had posted a huge-ass case on him when you replaced him and why you voted me with no reasoning.

^

This happened all on the last 6 or so pages. You've got eyes, you can read.

[DemonHybrid]

Does anyone here think that the case on shotty hasn't been clear aside from shotty?
Am I the only one who think that shotty's recent posts are a huge appeal to emotion? (getting angry and trying to look like frustrated town)

No.
Yes.

[DemonHybrid]

*No. No.

Sorry, a bit of a headache atm.

[DemonHybrid]

make me a big actual case against me and think long and hard about why it's scummy because i will tear it apart

<shotty's posting style>POST A DAMN CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SHOW US HOW UR NOT SCUM OR GO DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!</shotty's posting style>

[DemonHybrid]

I can't tell you how I'm not scum untill you tell me why I am scum!!!!

So you slept walked through the last 5 pages.

Explains your logic quite well...

[DemonHybrid]

Anyway, since you're big on cases Shotty, where's your case on me?

Oh, it's a "gut scum read", don't worry about that.

Saved shotty some yelling.

[DemonHybrid]

Shotty, none of that in that case MATTERS.

Do you know why?

Because you said you have a "gut scum read. not sure why" on Zach just recently.

Can we lynch shotty and get this over with?

[DemonHybrid]

Vollkan, are you going to help us out here or are you going to continue to soft-defend him by saying he's playing to his VI meta instead of acting genuinely scummy? I'm starting to think you're his partner.

[DemonHybrid]

Prodding Socrates

So, what's tomorrow's avatar? lol

[DemonHybrid]

UT, just so you know, after this game, I'm auto-nominating you for a scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

And for some reason....I really want a Dr. Pepper right now.

[DemonHybrid]

In a nutshell, even granting that you are a newb-VI, there is no apparent town mental process that would lead you to have such a flip-flopping attitude toward me. There is, as I said in the quote above, a very obvious scum one

Dude, forget your points system and vote him. You're delaying his lynch and it's looking worse and worse for you.

[DemonHybrid]

and not posting a case on me is looking worse and worse for you!

So, you don't even respond to big, colorful pictures?

You have less than the intellect of a child. Children respond to big, colorful pictures.

I am legitimately stunned.

[DemonHybrid]

He's saying that

YOU DON'T READ AND COMPREHEND ANYTHING.

BECAUSE OF THIS, YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT A CASE HAS BEEN PRESENTED FOR THE LAST FEW PAGES AND THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO SUMMARIZE IT. I EVEN DID SUMMARIZE IT IN THE FORM OF THREE PHRASES. THAT POST IS:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2545978

#

6

2

8

YOUR RESPONSE TO THESE PHRASES HAVE NOT BEEN SATISFACTORY. SUCH A RESPONSE CAN BE FOUND TWO (that's one more than one) POSTS AFTER #628.

Unsatisfactory defense is unsatisfactory. Therefore, you will die. And so will vollkan, if he keeps trying to justify your VI-ness instead of voting you for being scummy.

If pictures don't work, I wonder if enlarged phrases do.

[DemonHybrid]

Yep.

The pages speak for themselves.


....oh right, you probably won't understand that statement. I'm going to take my chances though. I'm quite tired of this.

[DemonHybrid]

I give up.

Posting again when one of the following conditions have been met:

1. I need to post for my prod
2. Shotty gets hammered
3. The subject of the conversation is changed onto something else.

[DemonHybrid]

Nice sportsmanship.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2497469 this is playing the line between modkill and no modkill. I still let it go. Because of no hard feelings.

Grow up.

[DemonHybrid]

Is there something in your wincon or role that says you should have me killed or something?

You have a good case.

And by "have a good case", I really mean "have fucking forgotten that reads can change".

Yep, I thought Zach was scum. Yep, I feel Zach is most town now. His play has gotten 200% better, horrordude went crazy on him without expressing ANY other suspicions. I don't think HD is good enough scum to bus a friend that hard.

vollkan also doesn't have a problem voting for horrordude...after a long winded case against him, adding points after points and careful analysis when people had already started wagoning him. And now he's stalling on his DMSIS vote.

DMSIS isn't just playing stupid this game. He has SCUM MOTIVATION. That's what UT, Zach and I are trying to convince everyone. Even vollkan recognizes it...why he's not hammering DMSIS is beyond me though.

Are you really going to think so narrowly to accept vollkan as obvtown and a stupid lynch just because he posts careful analysis? How long have you guys been playing, anyway? I've been playing since May and I already know that that's a dumb decision.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm also wondering. Why did you mention my view of Alduskkel when it has absolutely no correlation to your case?

[DemonHybrid]

Are you really going to think so narrowly to accept vollkan as obvtown and a stupid lynch just because he posts careful analysis? How long have you guys been playing, anyway? I've been playing since May and I already know that that's a dumb decision.

IMO, volkan would be a fairly easy lynch as a scum player simply because of the volume and breadth of his analysis. If he's still around at the endgame, his positions on dead players throughout the game should make his alignment fairly obvious. I'm inclined to keep him around for that reason alone.

why are you concerned about his alignment?

For the same reason I'm concerned about everyone else's. No player should be given a free pass, but you do bring up a good point. The argument of "okay, this person is obvscum; should we keep him alive, however?" has come up a lot for me, and there's no clear answer, according to X amount of people I've had this conversation with. Should we keep vollkan alive until endgame? Depends, but I agree with you that he'd be an easy lynch. It hasn't been hard connecting his play to scum motivation when it's come to both wagons.

However, I know what is bad. 100% confirming obvtown until the end of the game. I've lost quite a few games doing that.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Meaning, in the context of multiple scum still alive. "Should we keep X alive until endgame when we know that he's obvscum and could be using this time to lynch his connections?" is the question in depth. Yes arguing for the information we'd get by leaving him alive, no arguing for the fact that "well...he's scum. We lynch scum. That's what we do". Tough call. I find it situational.

[DemonHybrid]

@

mod

so i'm guess you are not going to grant my request

You're the worst and lowest player on this site.

[DemonHybrid]

And by "have a good case", I really mean "have fucking forgotten that reads can change".

What the hell DH!? That is one of your main reasons for calling me scum! Because I'm wishy washy! Eat your own words and go die.
unvote
vote DH

You don't deserve it, but I'll address this.

Whereas my reads changed over the course of a lynch flip and a day slowly, yours changed over 3 posts. So please kindly shut up and think about what you're saying before you hit submit.

@vollkan: You may call it "not wanting to vote HD when it didn't seem viable"; I call it testing the waters and then jumping in when things seemed okay. That's just my viewpoint.

[DemonHybrid]

vollkan, please lynch shotty now. He jumped on my wagon opportunistically when Reck voted me for a weak reason. How many +points is that for you now?

Oh wait, none, because you're going to blame this on his "playstyle".

[DemonHybrid]

Public apology for #712. I just came back from a full day of observation and I'm tired/irritated to find that. That's just stooping down to shotty's level.