Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[Lateralus22]

Hi, just letting you all know I've read the thread. Sorry if I repeated a few things but I did feel the need to bring them up again or say them.

First thing that I noticed is Korashk's post (#25) saying,

Will refrain from voting for now.

But on post #29 he decides to go ahead and vote, a random vote. This seems odd to me because just a few posts ago he said he wouldn't vote, implying (right?) that his future vote would be a serious one. Nothing game changing had happened between these posts and it was a very short amount of time so I'm wondering why he changed his mind then when he could have given a random vote before.

Response to Nexus post #103

Dalt has also switched his "random" vote. He voted saga, until told it wouldn't count, and then he changed his vote. I find that suspicious.

I don't like how Xite pointed this out as pointless, I believe I said this in our last game Xite "Any and every scummy behavior should be pointed out.". That being said reading his change in vote I don't find this as scummy if the reason he changed his vote is what I believe to be but I want him to explain in case it is not.

Responses to Nexus's post #111

LmL posted his "roleclaim" as Vanilla Townie. Did he realise it was a joke?

However, fitz also seems to have missed iam's joke, although he didn't go as far as "roleclaiming." I don't understand why he's not read the OP, but that may have been an accident or not really realised.

His mass claim plan was not a joke, if it worked as how he would have planned then the scum might have claimed a pr and seeing the game's setup the town would know that they are most likely the mafia. I also disagree with you saying that role claiming VT at this point in the game is scummy, as everyone would claim VT if they know the setup.

Lat hasn't posted yet. He last logged in a couple of hours ago, so why hasn't he posted in here?

I wasn't planning on posting yesterday. Usually I leave multiple tabs open even when I'm not looking at them which may lead you to believe I'm looking at the thread longer than I am. If you see I'm looking at this section then I probably am reading the thread. By the way it takes a while to read this thread. When I was first looking at it I was confused as to what was going on but I think I understand how the game is going now.

Dalt lied. Town has no reason to lie IMO. I agree he should explain himself.

One thing is the game was 2 years ago so he could possibly have forgotten but then again probably not seeing how he remembered his account name and password, but on page one he claims to have played mafia all the time. Look at page one though, I believe you can find the explanation for only bolding his vote there however I'd like dalt to explain. Are you set on lynching dat already? Do you fully believe he is scum or is this a policy lynch or lynch all liars?

It seems that the last thing that I'd like to bring up is CA's reckless play by hopping on and off several bandwagons.

He tries to justify this by saying,

Tell me, what's wrong with getting a bandwagon? They generate information on where people stand on various players. Information is good.

He's correct about about how they can generate information. Though why switching your votes so many times?

(Note: I'm looking at CA's post through the forum thing that'll let you look at a single person's posts. I am refering to his posts by those numbers.)

Post #0 - Simply voting Lee
Post#1 - You're saying that you approve of the Lee wagon. What exactly made you change your mind in post 3?
Post #2 - Hm, a sudden change of heart? It looks like you've decided to back off Lee because you don't believe you'll be able to achieve any sort of lynch? why didn't you keep your vote, the whole point of having a bandwagon is to bring information so do you not believe that if you had stayed on Lee the information you've been looking for would have came up?
Post#3 - It seems you've changed your mind again? This is all in the sake of getting a good bandwagon going? Were the last two not good enough?

Off topic

OHAI LAT!
Great to see that you're back in games

^_^

He recently replaced out of all the games he was in, so I was welcoming him back to the game. Also, I'm curious why he had to go and stuffs.

I wanted to make some life style changing that included not being on the computer as much as I was, by the way those life style changes I tried to make kinda failed =/

[Lateralus22]

Eh I'm still kinda new to this site (Played 3 games, all of which I replaced out of) but aren't those lists anti-town? It's good to know who you're suspicious but I don't really see how they actually help the town catch scum. Plus scum could use them as a tool to decide who to night kill in order to frame someone.

[Lateralus22]

I noticed that both Dalt and Korashk have remained the top two most suspicious for you. I can understand Dalt but why Korashk? Is this really because he posted the votes twice? This is a weak reason, I don't even think posting the votes twice is actually scummy.

Now about LmL/Prana/Ca. Your lists are very close together in time and posts. Why did the order of these 3 people change?

In list one (#115) LmL is ranked highest out of these three users, in the next list CA is ranked the highest out of the three. Why did the position change? Tell me what happened to make you change the order of who is the most scummiest. Why did CA remain the most scummiest out of the three in the third list?

In list one (#115) Prana is listed as your second highest to be scum in those three players. In the next two lists he was listed in the last spot of the three. Why? Tell me what made you change your mind.

Also in list one before you list who you think who is scummy you say,

My suspicions are thus:

Then,

Xite. I don't find you suspicious, I can see what you're trying to do.

Are you trying to avoid confrontation with Xite? Do you believe that if you say you don't think he his scummy you'll be safe?

[Lateralus22]

Also

Vote: Nexus

[Lateralus22]

Hey Korashk it seems that you're skimming this thread based on how you got the vote count messed up and how you didn't respond to my thoughts. Will you please look at my post (#119) and explain your action so I'm not confused?

Also Nexus,

No, I'm not trying to avoid a confrontation with Xite-I'm sure if he wants to continue fighting with me, he'll continue it. However, I was merely stating that I understood why he was being so vicious, and just because someone's a jerk, it doesn't make them scum. I've made that mistake before.

Are you sure? When I read this I thought, no, he's got to be lying? Why else would you list Xite under a list titled,

My suspicions are thus:

Then right in that list say you didn't find him suspicious? Are you sure your thoughts weren't something like this right?

Ok Xite's been pressuring me to give information, so I should make a list. right I've titled my list and listed a lot of things, wait! I've got to say Xite isn't suspicious so he'll back off!

Actually upon reading this again it isn't too weird that you'd want him to back off, really the guy's been on your back the whole time so naturally you would actually want him to back off a little right...? Though it seems you aren't trying to avoid confrontation, but why add in the comment? You and I both know it's simply for the sake of not having to argue with Xite about. Why are you lying?

[Lateralus22]

However, if you look at my next two lists, Xite doesn't figure on them.

This supports my theory that you just stuck Xite there to get him off your back.

I was just typing as I was thinking, it'll teach me to take my time more.

Does this mean you are rushing through the game? Don't you care about how your actions will affect the game and how it'll affect the town's ability to find scum?

[Lateralus22]

1.) It wasn't THAT short of a timeframe. The second referenced post came more than an hour after the first.
2.) My satelite internet ran out (don't ask, it's retarded), and I can't access sites like the one I use to RNG until it refreshes. Which it had when I voted.
3.) In reference to the bold: You can read what you like from my posts. It doesn't mean you're right.

1. An hour was a rounded done time. Though I don't really think that an extra thirteen minutes is a very groundbreaking difference. Comparing one hour and thirteen minutes to the whole game time (18 days) it IS a short time. Even in general it still is when you look at the content displayed. Though this is more of an opinion I will try to leave it alone since it's not very important.

2. Thanks for explaining.

3. All you said was "I will refrain from voting", I believe that you notice you did not explain why right? Now considering you didn't explain this leaves me and the rest of the people here to wonder why. Was he too lazy, was he busy, maybe he's thinking up something evil, or perhaps he doesn't feel the need to make a rvs vote, did you expect us all to come to the conclusion of "Oh wait, his internet sucks, thats why!". (Again this falls back to the time frame but it seems you don't agree that it was short). Note, there's a reason I added the (right?). I was asking you if you were, but it seems by your reaction and explanation, you were not.

----

I'm not rushing through the game-I have a really short attention span, and if I don't get my ideas down, I forget them really quick. I know now that I should take more time, yes, write it all down, but then go over it again and stuff to make sure it makes sense x]

Alright I understand, I assume you made all of your posts in a fast way?

I was just typing as I was thinking, it'll teach me to take my time more.

[Lateralus22]

Nexus please respond to my post (#163)

I'm not doing very well at explaining myself at all.

Yes, you seem consistent in doing so.

[Lateralus22]

"Alright I understand, I assume you made all of your posts in a fast way?"

That bit?

Yes. Up until I made that comment, now I'm slowing down a bit.

Yes, that bit.

Now you've told me you're lying. You did not post every post in a fast "Think as I write way."

Lets look at your largest post (#111). There's a load of information there, you're telling me a person with a "short attention span" remembered all of that and typed up all of it without referencing to the thread even once? Even I had to read through the first few pags to get what was going on =/

Now my point is, now at this point you've finally slowed down why didn't you keep on posting in this way? Why are you rushing and as you yourself and you end up saying "'I'm not doing very well at explaining myself at all. (#174)"

Also your first list you believe it should be titled "This is where I stand" right? Does this mean that your second and third list is more of an "official" correct scum list you stand by?

[Lateralus22]

I didn't reference any posts, but I was writing it and reading the posts in two separate tabs.

That's what I meant by referencing, you were looking at the posts in order to see what to write. I assumed that when you said "Write as I think" you read the posts then simply typed them up, am I misunderstanding you?

Alright so list number three is what you stand with. Now tell my why in list two and three you decided to copy off from Xite.

Dalt,
Korashk,
CA,
LmL,
Prana,
Lat,
Everyone else.

Here, I'll give my scumlist that is based -mostly- on gut

Saga
Nexus
Havingfitz

Based more on info

CA
LmL
Prana

It seems those three are listed in the same order. Or do you both think very alike? After all you first wrote CA as not that suspicious but put him as third on your list. Are you sure you simply put him that way despite your beliefs because you were copying what Xite wrote? Why are CA/LmL/Prana in the same order?

[Lateralus22]

@Lat - I could quote your whole post, but how many wall posts do you really wanna see from me? You know I'm capable of it.
Anyways, it could be just a coincidence, CA, LmL, Prana does sound better after all. That's why I posted them in that order Either way, you seem to be looking for a reason to vote the biggest wagon. For some reason, if Nexus flips town, you're going to be super-scummy to me

My vote made his the biggest wagon, so you could apply that reasoning if I had voted for anyone that had two votes. I'm happy with my vote and if I look scummy if Nexus turns out to be town then that's too bad.

i'm here. and really dont know what to think. the days are so long.

Go back and read the thread. Considering you're one of the biggest suspects what we're discussing should interest you.

[Lateralus22]

I'm still fine with my dalt54321 vote. Number two on my list atm is Korashk for his RV on CA using the random # generator coupled with the direct question/challenge to CA which he never follows up on despite CA basically ignoring (as far as I can see) the post/question/challenge by Korashk. As if Korashk is trying to justify his RV w/o the typical lame reasons and posting other content which he doesn't really care about.

Also...I may get a chance to post again today, but I will be v/LA tomorrow through Tuesday evening.

Challenge...?

Concerning the dalt lying situation why did you ommit the fact that the game was,

1. 2 years ago.
2. he had 2 very small posts.

Why?

He is just coming off as a poor little lamb lost in the woods to me and I am not buying it. Obviously your interpretation of lying is different than mine.

Oddly enough his "little loss lamb" behavior as you call it is contradicting to his "I play mafia all the time (#10)" and "for not yet knowing that i'm really good at this game. (#36)" statements he made. I don't really know what to think of this.

----

[quote="iamausername""]I really dislike Lateralus's contributions to the continued assault on poor ol' Nexus. It doesn't feel like he's trying to determine anything about Nexus's alignment, it feels like he is trying to win an argument, like this will 'prove' Nexus's scumminess, and we will all be compelled to vote Nexus when he does.[/quote]
Hm? I got interested in Nexus when LmL pointed out he had "major inconsistencies" (#124), when LmL pointed out Nexus lying (#125), and decided to start investigating him when I saw his defensive post (#126) since LmL did not question him as much as I thought he should have been questioned. The purpose of my attack on Nexus was point out inconsistencies and to catch him lying.

[Lateralus22]

We'll see where this takes us

Where would you like me to take you?

@Lat: I let the thread know that I was going to be away, primarily for the weekend. I didn't get a chance to really question him yet. It'll happen. Sometimes, Lat, you just got to let them talk. When they don't feel threatened, the scum tends to slip up more than when they're on guard.

Alright.

-----

@Iamusername

You say Nexus is a newb correct? You also believe scum is structured and well planned. Now according to what I've understood from your reasoning, correct me if I'm wrong, but a newbie will more likely be inconsistent and scum more likely to be well thought out and structured? Will you please kindly tell me how a newbie scum will play?

Hey, Lat. Who else is scummy besides Nexus?

There are multiple players who've been suspicious, do you want me to repeat everything's that's been said, or should I say who I believe to most likely be Nexus's scummbuddy. Or the two other scum if Nexus is not scum?

@Xite

So Xite, scum slip much? You seem to automatically assume Nexus is 100% town?

4) I have this knack for making believable cases when I don't even believe in them, I guess, because a few people followed it, but the way they did it seemed town enough, so I kept up the charade, hoping more people would jump on.

Does this mean the points you make against Nexus are not real scum tells?

5) Nexus did a great job of making himself "seem" scummy to you guys, too, exactly the way I'd hoped he would

Not liking how you're using Nexus as a tool. So if a town newbie makes himself look scummy (I am assuming this is your reason for "knowing" Nexus is town) does this mean a newbie scum will not look scummy?

c) Usually newbscum are more reserved out of fear of being caught (the way he posts is why I'm pretty sure he's town, it's without fear/worry)

Going back to the last question, if newbie scum does not act scummy does this not make your last point null?

b) They'll probably overreact to almost everything

Why'd you add this point in? From my point of view it only looked like Nexus overreacted in one post, then he got back on track and remained calm.

[Lateralus22]

1) A scumlynch
2) Scumslip? Where? And I don't know %100 that he's town, but he seems a lot more town-like than you do
3) In some situations, they are, in Nexus' situation? Probably not
4) I'm sorry? I think he can react to it how he will, and he might not be too happy with me, but I'm pretty sure that he's the one that gets to get angry at me for using him as a tool. This sentence sounds a lot like you trying to discredit me. My reason for being pretty sure he's town is because of the "slips" he's making. They do seem more attributed to noobtown than to noobscum.
5) I'm talking in generalities, most of the time, people that will claim noob have very specific ways of acting.
6) I was giving you my whole perspective, he didn't overreact so much as I thought he would, but he still reacted enough to gain more suspicion, which didn't make it a failed attempt at catching scum

1. Keep going till you see the farm then take a right.
2. Right there, points above. I see no if's, or even considering in Nexus is town now that you've said your case against him was something you didn't believe in. Come on, point out a post where you said you honestly thought he was scum or even considered it. Come on, I'm waiting.
3. Thank you for letting me know. Why are these not tells in Nexus's situation.
4. Yeah, this is slightly off topic and doesn't really relate to how very much to how scummy someone is. I understand that it's part of the game and all but it was more that you were bragging about it like some big victory, almost as if you're looking down on him.
5. What? So you making generalities of thing that are situational or as you say "very specific"?
6. So you've caught the scum. Can you give me two names?

[Lateralus22]

Edit, on point two I am mostly speaking about post (#221) and your general play.

[Lateralus22]

Ah =/ again on point two I meant "considering in Nexus is scum"

[Lateralus22]

2) I DON'T think he is scum, that's what I said isn't it? I don't see the slip. Yes, he may be scum, but you're looking much scummier

2. Really, go back and quote a post you made where honestly thought Nexus was scummy or scum. Do it. Every single "honest" post you made was saying Nexus is town, no ifs or maybes, he's just town.

You posted your case on post (#87) but you started your gambit (#67). You started off attacking Nexus to make others believe you thought he was scum, because this is an act this means you did not believe he was scum. Nexus only had three posts before you started your gambit.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

For having rust.

I expected that, PranaDevil.

I also assumed that the first round of votes were random-that's what I was taught in the newbie game. Hence me posting purely because you were rusty.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with iamusername.

CA, I find it very odd you switched your vote from Lee, which had three people on it, to another person. That's just prolonging the RVS, especially because your reasoning's been sketchy.

Plus, your bandwagons aren't achieving anything but put you under suspicion. So, FoS:ConfidAnon

In other news, I nostalgia'd at your avatar.

Post (#221) you start off your explanation with Nexus is noob. You also have an extreme belief he is town.

4) I have this knack for making believable cases when I don't even believe in them, I guess, because a few people followed it, but the way they did it seemed town enough, so I kept up the charade, hoping more people would jump on.

Charade... This means your very early posts were not investigations, you did not investigate him because you knew he was town. That is why you used him in order to see how people would react. Meaning you figured out he was town in only 3 posts. If you truly were investigating Nexus in order to see if he might have been scum you would have mentioned it. A simply

"Ah well I started off my gambit using Nexus, I didn't really know what he was but I figured he would be a good tool to use in order or draw out scum or his reactions might even tell me he was scum."

would have made more sense. Why didn't you say that, because you were not interested in Nexus's role, only the reactions of others. No as scum you thought the best thing you could do is influence others to attack Nexus then frame them because obviously Nexus was so town.

3) Because IMO noob scum tells are different
4) No, I was happy it seems to have worked.
5) Uhm, what? Generalities as in, generally, noobtown do this, and noobscum do this. They generally have a very specific way of acting
6) Not both of them yet, but I'm pretty sure I've got one. and here's a hint, I'm voting for him

3. Find every noob tell that Nexus has that you claim is different from a scum tell and give me one or more examples to prove or support it.

5. alright then.

6. "Shrugs" If you're town this is really silly. I believe you suspect me because I was asking Nexus questions in an agressive way correct?

[Lateralus22]

I know I said I wanted to let Dalt explain why he made the voting mistake but I don't think he'll keep posting.

All that mattered to me was that he had played (i.e. lied in this game) and he knew how to vote properly…as displayed by his previous game and by the fact he alluded to the voting rules in his first post in this game. Now he is lurking as well. Rather than other’s coming to his defense…perhaps he should rather than just giving us this:

1. If you're going by the facts he did lie. Now start looking in shades of grey and try to see if he knew he actually remembered the game. It was two years ago.
2. He voted the way PranaDevil told him too.

Hey so i really don't know whats going on yet. I play mafia all the time, but this is the first on this site, could someone give me a quick rundown of the basics? ive read the wiki and stuff,

but i see like you have to vote with colons and stuff.

also the first day is 28 days?

I'm just used to voting like this,

I think you can vote pretty much however you want as long as it's bolded

(though each game is run based on the mod's rules).

saga

just cause he voted me. now this place plays mafia alot different than i do, so please dont jump on me, i have to adjust.

Notice how the vote is bolded?

4) So you’re ok with a lie because it’s old and from a small sample…but you are ok with the apparent contradiction between his playing experience and his play in this game? Ohhhhhhhhh kay.

Hey, please don't put words in my mouth. If you look at what you quoted I said "I don't really know what to think of this.".

I'll probably respond to Xite later today or tomorrow.

[Lateralus22]

Note about Dalt: Look at your keyboard, notice how the #2 is right next to the #1? Could it be that someone without perfect grammar and very carefully typed out posts made a typo?!

[Lateralus22]

Alas poor dalty for surely a noob he was
How unfortunate for he
who did not know how a vote to be made was!
His confusion was no illusion
For what was he to do, one had voted one way while one had another!
Was it to be "Random vote"
or was he commanded to only say "vote" the poor lad had wondered
But do not fear, for there was help near!
He sought for advice, from the wise sage of age
Who had kindly replied "Ye who must be told be bold!"
Satisfied was he, who got the message muddled
He had voted the way, just as was told!

But that was not the end of this young boy's story
For this was not the first time he was in such a strange land
And as such he was accused by Sir. Fitz for being part of the tory!
What was one to do, he silently wondered.
While the others just muttered, perhaps ye forgot, perhaps ye scum?
What was poor Dalt to do other than to sit on his bum?

1) Seriously? OK...Yes. I am going by the facts. What do you like to use? And no...I see this as cut and dry so I am not interested in shades of gray.
2) Did he read Prana's post? Did he ignore the other 12 votes already cast? Feel free to answer for him.

1. You're ONLY looking at the facts and trying to ignore the finer details while only looking at a scummy point of view on him.

2. Yes did you, should I go in depth about a post that shouldn't even be that important?

"I'm just used to voting like this"

Prana did not say what "this was" leaving Dalt to be confused, I know I didn't know what he was speaking about when he said "this".

"think you can vote pretty much however you want as long as it's bolded"

Here's the answer to why Dalt voted the way he did.

"though each game is run based on the mod's rules)."

It is stated how to vote in the rules. 2 things most likely caused Dalt to ask how to vote

1. He did not understand what the rules said.
2. He saw that LmL posted differently from what was in the rules.

Vote: Nexus

For it being the first time you get to play against me.

[quote="LmL"Random Vote: PranaDevil for first-posting.

First game in over 2 or 3 years. Let's see how long it takes to shake off the rust.

Notice how both his votes in his previous game were votes that would have been acceptable in this game? Notice how his saga vote was the 13th vote cast in this game? Iirc...all the previous 12 were done correctly. He knew what the proper format was.

DUDE, you

lied

about LmL voting right man, so is it time to lynch all liars?

The being in a game two years ago is starting to look like wifom.

Expect a response to Xite later today with a summary on my posts with Nexus and clarifying my thoughts on both of them.

[Lateralus22]

Ugh the quotes got messed up. Just look at posts #3 and #4 to look at them correctly.

[Lateralus22]

@Lat…did your last post have a purpose or were you just posting fluff to express the inner poet in you?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was trying to sum up everything dalt did while saying he had legit reasons to be confused and that he was just doing what he was told in a comical way. I'll stay away from the poems and be blunt and to the point from now on.

As for your comments about me lying….that is complete crap. First…I prefaced my comment about the pre-dalt votes with an iirc so if I missed one…meh, the eleven other votes all get my point across equally well; secondly, whose to say the LML vote you mention was not valid? It contained all the required formatting. So please get serious…unless you plan on making this another of your replace out games. And feel free to take onboard any of my comments to Prana that apply to your defense of dalt.

"Vote:"
"Random Vote:"

Eh last time I checked you weren't supposed to add the word "Random" before you vote. Regardless of wether it was valid or not it makes sense as to why Dalt was confused. And the vote bolding Dalt simply did what PranaDevil told him to. Unless I happen to die, get blinded, or have no internet access you can expect me to be here.

That "You think Nexus is town? OMG scumslip!!" nonsense has pushed him over the edge, I think.

He was convinced Nexus was town after only three posts, that doesn't seem right to me at all.

[Lateralus22]

Nexus

1. The odd order of the lists are weird. List one says "suspicions" then says Xite isn't suspicious. Looks like he's just trying to lay low and stay away from someone he figures to be a threat.

2. I don't believe what he says about not trying to avoid confrontation with Xite. In post (#111) he speculated that Xite was might have been trying to distract everyone why didn't he mention it? If scum can lay low and avoid suspicion then they would be safe.

3. Then there's the lie about about seeing how LmL would react.

4. Then we move onto the inconsistencies with his lists. List one states Ca is not that suspicious but he's the 3rd highest unless you include me. (he was only adding me there to put pressure on me which is fine) Yes he explained it saying that he reread the thread, I don't really know. I noticed that the CA/LmL/Prana order was the exact same as Xite's list and thought he just copied and pasted which would explain the difference between the lists.

5. Now as to why I questioned him about his posting I wanted information. I also wanted to see if I could catch in him in a lie. It seemed to be like he said he was rushing but his largest post looked like it took time to post. Again this goes back to seeing if he was lying.

6. I was satisfied with his response about the last point. He sounded honest and answered confidently, post #178. I cannot say the same about post #150 when he is explaining his actions he blames it on a mistake, this leads me to believe that post was a lie.

I hope this clearly explains what I was thinking and why I questioned Nexus about certain things and why what I brought up related to him lying and explaining the inconsistencies instead of only accepting they were mistakes.

Xite

1. First off the whole basis of my case against is that he pretty much "knows" Nexus is town. It seems that he's been doing some sort of gambit the whole time and the basis of that was that Nexus was town and he'd get some sort of reactions from the scum. This relied heavily on Nexus being town, which it seems he deduced from reading only three posts. That is the major part that doesn't sit right with me.

2. Again going onto Nexus is town gotta see what scum will do. He states "And this is how you make a successful gambit" meaning that he finished what he needed to do. Now he only said earlier on that he wanted to see reactions because Nexus was town and he made a fake scum tell to lure them. He never once states (Until after I mentioned he wasn't investigating.) that he was also looking to see if Nexus was scum. If he truly was he would have told us, but he didn't. Scum does not need to investigate anyone in this game because they know everyone's role.

2) Why the hell would I need to do that? It's the opposite from what I'm saying, so why would it be important? Just wonderin

This would prove my accusation of you making a scum slip is false, I figured you'd want to make my whole case null.

a. Go back to you didn't investigate him because you knew he was town. Only scum knows who and who is town.

b. This means you figured out he was town in only three posts. That's pretty risky for a gambit that would go on for such a long time wouldn't you agree?

3. I honestly want to know why they aren't scumtells in this situation.

6. Nah, just putting out my thoughts. You can see above my reasoing from when I was attacking Nexus and why.

If I am missing something important or anything is unclear let me know so I can clarify my thoughts or anything on this post that is confusing.

[Lateralus22]

1) See Above. What can I say? I'm becoming a master of early-tells
2) Ok, and? See above, also, see 1
Youre gonna hafta explain that bit after the quote, I'm confus
a) See 2
b) Not really, if things changed, my view would change, and I'd go from there, that's what you're supposed to do in this game, IIRC
3) Because of the way he's doing it? I like to call it an informed gut reaction

1. "Sigh" Will thou share your great wisdom with us?
Quote - Not sure why you're confused, look at this scenario,

Lat - Xites scum! He's got to be! Look at the way he knew Nexus was town from 3 posts and his behavior is pretty much a scum slip (Aka like when scum talks about a townie without saying the words if or maybe signaling they know for sure what role someone has).

Xite - Nah man, I didn't really know that, here's a good to honest quote showing that at some points in the game I doubted Nexus's towniness because I really don't know if he's town for sure.

Once you do so my whole case is null.

3. Not liking how you refuse to explain.

@Nexus

We've both already gone over this (Just giving a summary and explaining my thoughts) and there's really nothing I can say other than " you're lying" and you respond back "no I'm not".

@fitz

Why are you only mentioning Prana coming to Dalt's defense? Multiple people tried to explain Dalt's actions.

@ Prana

What do you think of Iam and Leech?

[Lateralus22]

1) But IIRC I said pretty sure the whole time, meaning I didn't know for sure, it was just a strong gut feeling. So does that mean your case is already null?
3) It's not something I can explain. It's just a gut feeling based on what I've seen from other noobs. Wording, amount of posts, and content of posts have very little to do with it, its the feel of the post that makes me think he's town.

1. No, I want physical proof. The point I'm trying to make is your behavior and gut feelings towards Nexus is parallel to that of someone making a scum slip where one would say a players role for sure. I feel that way because you've had the same feelings from the very beginning of the game when Nexus posted very little content. My suspician only grows stronger when he was the center piece of a gambit that heavily relied on him being town.

2. Nothing at all? You can't even quote certain parts of his posted and tell you what emotions or gut feelings you get from them? You say that him being town is obvious and you've seen the same reactions. If it's obvious then this must mean it's something common you've seen before. If it is why can't you cite any examples?

179 (Lat) - Brings up the point that Xite-Nexus are basically indistinguishable, but comes to a different conclusion then me. I see this as a tell against them being partners more then them being partners.

No, I was accusing Nexus of copying off the order of players on the list.

[Lateralus22]

Do you really believe this? This seems like (a) you're making an excuse for Dalt's confusion and (b) Rationalizing something that doesn't need rationalization.

I have gone on really feel like the Dalt play was a red-herring, and it has really dominated the post-waves for a while.

Yeah, or in the very least more than Dalt being a evil mastermind cleverly lying about everything including his own identity.

A. I prefer the term explaining, but yeah I guess I am making an excuse. That being said I believe it is a logical reason reason that can explain why he was confused.

B. fitz brought up the "oh he's pretending to be confused" and so I tried to explain Dalt's confusion.

I don't know HF enough to metagame, but considering this to be a mountainous game (and it obviously is, checking out the title of the thread), his lack of knowledge of the game is inexcusable. To me, this felt so wrong, and it did at the time, which is why I kept on bringing it up.

Why is lack of knowledge a scum tell?

he didn't directly deny knowing the roles. In one case he is flippant, and in the other he denies know what "mountainous" is rather than simply stating that he didn't know the roles in this game.

in your experience, don't liars generally prefer saying half-truths or talking evasions like flippancy over stating obvert lies?

iamausername's post asking for a massclaim was direct enough in specifying this specific setup that I looked at the mod's first post again to make sure that I didn't miss anything. If h.fitz as town thought that this was a normal closed game in little italy then as town shouldn't he have been curious about why iamausername thought this game was different? It seems to me that h.fitz was a scum typing out what he thought would look like a townie post without really thinking like a townie.

What? The fact that he thought there were town pr's shows he didn't know the setup. Where are his half truths? I don't find it surprising fitz didn't pick up on IAU hinting at the setup, most people didn't.

I'm just wondering, do you really believe your own case? It's rather weak and it looks like you just took the idea from LmL post (#282).

Also quoting this unanswered question as reference material for LML in answering that last question.

He actually did answer the question, but on the days he didn't post here was he posting in any other mafia threads?

Unvote:

Vote: Xite91

[Lateralus22]

He actually did answer the question, but on the days he didn't post here was he posting in any other mafia threads?

I thought you were talking about CA... question still stands for CA though.

Questions for wendy,

1. What do you think about the Lateralus / Nexus situation
2. Your current views on Korashk/LlamaFluff?
3. What do you think about the Lateralus / Xite situation?
4. Any other suspicians or alternates to who could be scum if fitz turns up town?

[Lateralus22]

Because the information was readily available for us in the opening post. That's why.

I hereby ask you, honestly. Look back at this game. Be honest with the situation. Did you know that there were 2 goons and 10 townies before you posted? I sure did.

Yeah, but when I wasn't in the game I read about IAU's gambit beforehand and then I learned about the setup.

Again, though with the jumpy overcautiousness.

There's a difference between not wanting to get banned or mod killed from a game and being an over cautious scum trying to look pro town.

Hi lat, mind telling me why you voted for me?

Post (#252) and Post (#273) should tell you everything you need to know.

Lat is scummy, but IIRC I called them being the scumteam.

What? No you didn't. How could you even make a mistake in thinking you did? I consider calling scum teams to be very important, there was one point in the game I even asked you who my scum partner would be if I was scum. I would have thought that if you would have figured it out you would have bothered to tell all of us. It's starting to look like you're just making stuff up as you go along, not caring wether the town finds scum or not. If we're both scum why don't you go ahead and make a nice case, you realize when you find scum you should get them lynched right, and convince everyone else to get them lynched?

1) Ironically, since i am town, I'm not worried about being consistent because I figure my thought process should be pretty consistent without me having to check on it all the time. If I was scum I might go back to check on those things to make sure my posts weren't seen as scummy because of inconsistencies. Just sayin.

Great, now scum no longer have to make sure they're being consistent because townies don't have to worry about being consistent by your logic.

[Lateralus22]

Wendy, have you considered reading the whole thread before you try to accuse someone of being scum, and if you have read the whole thread why not go beyond only looking at two pages?

Hi Prana, I've noticed lately you've only been responding when something has been regarding you directly and about Dalt. Why not come back and join us in scum hunting? You do have a vote on CA and believe him to be scum, so why are you waiting on the sidelines instead of going after him and looking further into your suspicion?

FoS: PranaDevil

[Lateralus22]

I'm adding something to what Nightwolf said.

2) I don't think it was a joke. It's actually a good way to catch clueless scum in a game like this.

I am assuming you're talking about Iau's gamit? Then why this?

5) Because the gambit wasn't gonna work IMO and what he did seemed like a null tell to me

You don't get the newbs get out of inconsistency card like Nexus does.

[Lateralus22]

She actually BACKTRACKED and on points that she agreed with at first, she's now finding scummy. Time for a lynch."

Can you point these points out to me?

To those getting suspicious of tw...does that change the way you view dalt's play?

No, no it does not.

But I have previously stated I'm more than happy to respond to anything anyone wishes to ask of me. So if there is anything you want to direct me to feel free.

I asked Wendy some questions, will you please go ahead and answer them? Wendy can you please go and answer the questions I had asked you earlier?

-----

I am against the wendy lynch right now, unless something changes my mind or I have to lynch him to stop the day from ended up as no lynch I do not plan on joining the wendy wagon. He looks like he means well, but I also think he's horribly wrong about the points he makes. No lynch right now is not a good idea, a success full day 1 is just as important as lynching scum. With that being said there's still more room for discussion before we lynch anyone.

[Lateralus22]

1) So I should deprive myself from RVS because of something I noticed I can easily go to if I feel stronger about it later? Also, did you forget that I was making a fake case on him?

Does this mean you were trying to make RVS longer?

my assessment: nolynch is optimal, followed by h.fitz lynch, followed by xite lynch.


I am a baller

My assessment: You are scum, bussing your partner and setting up a townie mislynch when Fitz flips scum.

tommorow wendy will you please go and answer the questions I had asked you? Prana quoted them on this page so you should be able to find them. Sorry Prana that I didn't say which page they were on, I thought you wouldn't have trouble finding them since I thought I had posted them recently.


This doesn't make sense by your reasoning Xite. You believe Wendy is bussing fitz right? So if wendy is lynched and he turns up scum, then you lynch fitz because you're saying tommorow wendy was bussing fitz how will that be a mislynch when you're saying he'll turn up scum?

[Lateralus22]

@Everyone - What is your opinion on no lynch today after hearing the arguement from TW?

We're not no lynching.

Get it now?

Sorry I misunderstood you. You are saying the lynch on yourself is a mis lynch right?

I think he asked pretty much the same thing, and already answered.

Going back to post #392...

I don't think you got the point of what I was saying, you thought Iau's gambit was a good way to catch scum when it was easy for you to think so yet when questioned you believe that it wouldn't have worked? You're twisted things around when it fits your needs.

@CA

Why aren't you liking Xite's play and what don't you like about it? Is there anything you'd like to add or would you feel it would be better if you backed up into the shadows?

1. What do you think about the Lateralus / Nexus situation

lat is more likely to be town

2. Your current views on Korashk/LlamaFluff?

not very scummy

3. What do you think about the Lateralus / Xite situation?

i prefer to lynch Xite today if enough people don't see the light and elect nolynch

4. Any other suspicians or alternates to who could be scum if fitz turns up town?

nexus

1. Why?
2. Why?
3. Why Xite? Are you not suspious of havingfitz? What about PranaDevil?
4. Why?

This post looks a lot like buddying.

@IAU

Would you like to come back to the game? We'd like to have your opinion on what's going on.

[Lateralus22]

He berates Xite because "any and every scummy behavior should be pointed out", but then goes to agree with Xite that the behaviour in question was not scummy. So basically he's just throwing dirt at Xite for no actual reason.

Huh… What… ?

That was me trying to be

friendly

in a not completely I'm going to hug you and hold you forever kind of way. I don't even know how you read that in a negative tone at all, so I gave my personal philosophy on mafia, your point? I do believe Nexus did a good thing pointing out what he did, that doesn't mean I agreed with it. This would be similar to you liking how Leech is critically thinking yet you believe he is wrong. Xite didn't even take this in a negative way, he gave a light hearted joke like response some time in this thread.

I enjoy the fact that Lat doesn't even deny that he is not actually trying to figure out Nexus's alignment.

If questioning someone and trying to point out inconsistent or scummy behaviors isn't trying to figure out someone alignment I don't know what else is.

Post #222: And here we start to move onto the next phase, where Lat starts to shift away from Nexus and onto Xite, because apparently town reads are scum slips now. But, strangely enough, his vote doesn't go anywhere. If he really thinks that Xite slipped up and accidentally admitted that he knew Nexus is town, you'd think he might want to stop voting for Nexus, no? Looks to me like he is waiting to see if an Xite wagon will take off before abandoning the healthy wagon he has already.

Unfortunatly I don't have a very good reason, I will however give you the true reason. I was lazy. There was no rush at all, from my point of view it was like I figured out a big piece of the puzzle noticing a scum slip that I figured leads Xite to being scum for sure. In the Nexus situation I was trying to get information, thus putting a vote on for more pressure. With Xite the pressure wasn't needed, I just decided to finish the conversation.

Post #311: Nearly 100 posts later, Lat finally switches his vote over to Xite. There's no big revelation in this post, he doesn't point out any new scummy behaviour from Xite (or new town behaviour from Nexus) that pushed him over the edge. In fact he doesn't even mention either Xite or Nexus in this post. So I am really wondering what the catalyst was for the vote change coming in this particular post.

At post #283 Xite ends the argument and so I put my vote where it should be.

This does a lot to convince me that he might have actually believed in his stupid points against Nexus.

My Awesome points against Nexus.

I haven't had much interaction with Prana, or you, Wendy, does that make us scum teams too?

Now that you notice this please try to change that. What do you think of all three of those players, does anything stick out to you?

And since I answered your CA question, why don't you tell us why you don't want to vote tw while you are at it. The tw vca spreadsheets just take up space (IIoA) and add no value (at least this early in the game). That on top of tw's blatent misrep on me, failure to answer questions directed at him/her (twice) and his/her crap play to this point in the game (+ dalt's).

Maybe because I took one look at that picture and went "Yup... screw that"
Also, that kind of a thing won't even be really useful until later, you said so yourself.

Love how both of you like to attack tomorrow wendy when he posts fluff yet you attack him when he's posting useful information when Xite (and kinda fit) says that it will be useful later. If it is why are you complaining? Looks like both of you saw IIoA was a scum tell and decided to bash anyone who does so no matter what the content is.

4) I do use mostly gut, yes, but for your sakes I have been providing information on the people I find scummy. Go back and read me, you'll see points on Lat, Fit, and Wendy, they just aren't all bundled up in one post like I'm sure you would like.

Do you not care enough about finding scum that you aren't make an organized case in order to present all the evidence and information needed to lynch or find scum?

…I'm forgetting someone. Oh right, Lat. Why don't you want to lynch ConfidAnon?

Xite is more scummy. I looked at another game CA was in so I figured he was just… not very good. I haven't looked at any more of his games though.

I looked at over tomorrow wendy's posts and I think I figured it out. tomorrow wendy's just messing with all of us. Most of his posts just looks like he's trying to get reactions out of others, though he could do a better job if he's town. I am not against his lynch as much as I was, but I still believe that Xite is a better lynch.

[Lateralus22]

1) You don't wanna hug and hold me forever? T_T

I didn't say I didn't want to.

2) I attacked him for it? I think I asked him about it, but he asked me why I didn't notice something about his chart and I gave my honest reason, it's too complicated for me to care about it until it's actually useful

Dismissing his contribution and calling it useless is not an attack?

3) I don't care enough to make a case with points that I've already stated, especially when it's pretty obvious why the person is scum/scummy to me

The case isn't for you, it's for the town. Since you're refusing to go back and make a case with all the points for us to see this leads me to believe two things.

1. Points aren't even there, or their too weak and that if you post them for us all to see you're afraid of being exposed, and you won't able to hold onto any weak or non nonexistent points.

2. You really don't care about finding scum at all, which is just plain anti-town / scummy.

4) Awww does that mean that you consider me a good player?

If I told you I'd have to lynch you.

5) Why don't you come down from that fence, lat?

What fence? Do I really need to put it bluntly?

1. tomorrow wendy is town, he is messing with us.
a. This is purely for his own entertainment, but this also gives reactions giving information.
b. He's been lying, this is for reactions. After around the time Prana and LmL started voting for him, he decided the self vote and no lynch would give reactions. At this point he isn't really trying to lynch scum but again this goes on putting forth information based on which stance every player takes.

2. Wendy is scum, he likes to confuse us.
a. He self destructed around the time Prana and LmL voted for him.
b. He decided to be useful and make his voting charts in order to make us wonder what his alignment is and what motivations he has. This is more of weak play on his part. As scum's goal is for survival tomorrow wendy's behavior is irritating for the town and has made many of them against him.

There really wasn't any point to most of this, if he's trying to survive then he probably to go with some WIFOM and make us wonder why he does something and what that means and keep him alive. Though, he seems to be doing the whole WIFOM thing I mentioned rather well... still believe reason 1.

Point one seems more likely, and makes more sense if wendy is experienced, and is trying to win.

Now why would I be less against the wendy lynch than I was before? Dalt's spot holds a pretty important place. Not only do we get a better idea about tomorrow wendy's reasons for things but we get a better look at havingfitz and a few others who have posted with tomorrow wendy.

Now I'd want your lynch more than tomorrow wendy because I believe you to be scum, we still get a good day 1 no matter what tommorrow wendy flips but again still think your scum so I still want your lynch.

Huh? How are any of the graphics tdel has provided been of use? As we get further into the game that sort of analysis will be more and more beneficial...but on D1 it doesn't mean a thing. So the three examples tdel has posted are just taking up space and not providing anything of value.

As we get further into the game that sort of analysis will be more and more beneficial

@Nexus

I asked you a question post #480

Would you like to answer it?

[Lateralus22]

Hm, it's nice to see you're serious now tw, and it looks like Prana's getting a little angry.

Prana and Xite, what do the two of you think of each other?

I don't have much to say about the last two pages. A lot of it is just discussion about no lynch and ongoing games. tw don't you think the scum already have a good idea about who they're going to kill, and if we do lynch now that would help the town get information faster and lynch scum faster?

[Lateralus22]

Not got a strong read on Xite, and will need to do an ISO to check him, so will do that come next day phase. I do feel there have been some questionable comments from him as I've seen them pointed out by others. Just at this stage I feel wendy is easily the best lynch for the day.

What, Xite is one of two most likely to be lynched today, how do you not have a strong read? Instead of wasting time and waiting for the next day why don't you go read Xite's Iso now and tell me what you think?

[Lateralus22]

ok, so you don't have anything important that stuck out to you at all? Is he more town, neutral, scum?

[Lateralus22]

How can neither of you have not have an opinion on each other? You're both playing the same game, and you've both been here for a while.

How does Wendy not seem serious?

[Lateralus22]

Right, Xite and wendy being town is very interesting, but they are not the stars of this post. the following is a tragic story of the villain scum known as PranaDevil.

First off lets lay out some general info about Prana throughout the whole game.

I'd be happy on either an Xite or a CA lynch right about now. I would be wholly against a Dalt one either.

Nothing too interesting, but it's noted in case it will be useful in this case. (#17)

Regarding the EBWOP for number 5 after, yeah it was a typo, I'd be all for a Dalt lynch after that. I'm not one for an instant "Policy Lynch" as solely focusing on those will take us straight into brown trousers time. However I feel there's a huge difference between a general policy lynch of someone caught out lying, and someone who was using their lies to try and make town believe they were new and didn't really know how to play, especially when there's evidence to prove otherwise. It smells of trying to gain sympathy points and I don't like it.

This is very interesting. Please look at "when there's evidence to prove otherwise." This comes across as complete bs to me especially after Prana defended Dalt until and after he left. Surely when one is ready to lynch scum they'd look at the fine details, or the shades of grey as Prana was willing to preach when he defended Dalt's situation of the game. This comes off as an opportunistic reason to lynch Dalt. (#18)

Okay, I was letting Nexus and Lat have their debate, and seeing what I could get from it.

When he first posted this comment didn't bother me so much, but now later on considering he hasn't done anything with the information in this debate makes me suspicious. This looks like an excuse to not say anything, it is understandable to not interfere directly but I don't understand why he didn't voice his opinion on the matter when it was over. (#23)

On a side note posts #25 - 30 are only arguing about Dalt. #35 - 36 is more fitz Dalt argument and a some fluff.

FoS: Wendy Not liking the play at the moment. I don't mind coming in and looking everyone over, but I would expect there to be more scrutiny in things, and not just firing off at everything without properly paying attention to it.

It's funny because wendy was more scrutiny in things. (#37)

Now are you going to try scum hunting or are you destined to just distract town by tunnelling on me over a completely pointless issue?

This is also funny because you at this point you don't even try to look for scum, all you do is argue with fitz and wendy.

Because even when he said he wasn't joking, it still felt like he was just deadpanning his joke. It was RVS, and as Leech has said, plenty of people joke around in it. I generally hate RVS in general but I do appreciate a good gag as good as the next guy (normally more so in fact) so it seemed like a good line to me.

But I'm with LmL on this one. Wendy's been pushing pointless topics since she entered, has jumped over anyone who so much as looks in her direction and given no true solid reasoning for her actions, while continuing to flog a dead horse when it had died prior to her entering the game.

unvote; vote: tomorrow wendy

Here we go, opportunistic vote at #45, even though you said you were unsure about about wendy's alignment at #42. I've got to say, this is rather odd considering you had FoS'ed wendy, normally when one does that they are suspicious of said person and believe them to be moor likely as scum right? Then why'd you wait for LmL to kick things off so you'd have full support, oh wait because it's opportunistic. (#45)

Great, more fluff at #47, start scum hunting

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch.

I also find Adendy and Xite scummy

Aw thanks for giving us your opinion on Xite, it's good to know you thought he was scummy and that you supported his lynch! (#48 and #48)

however I'd be happy with a Xite lynch too at this stage.

Hey, you still seem to believe this! (#49)

Actually I've not too long ago said CA is still one of my picks as likely scum. I just feel that Wendy or Xite are stronger and better lynches today.

Alright, it seems clear that if your suspicious of Xite and you willing to have him lynched you'd have an opinion on him correct? Note, it's interesting how you add in Xite as a strong and better lynch, were you lying? (#53)

Not got a strong read on Xite, and will need to do an ISO to check him, so will do that come next day phase.

Whoa dude, I thought you wanted to lynch Xite. If you were willing to lynch Xite why the PranaDevil wouldn't you have a strong read on him? Oh wait it's because both candidates were town and you wanted to pick the more obvious and more likely to be lynched for the day's lynch right? (#65)

As for Xite, I don't know, most of the recent game has been wendy distracting the fuck outta me because I've been stuck arguing the second most stupid and ridiculous argument I've ever been a part of on this site (and 3rd overall).

How can you not know about Xite? YOU WANTED TO LYNCH HIM. START SCUM HUNTING (#68)

Xite I may not have a strong read one way or the other

DAMN IT PRANA START SCUM HUNTING. If anything this quote and the last is proof that you're ok with lynching people you don't have strong reads on. Now lets look back to my earlier suggestion, how convenient is it that you didn't have time to do an Iso read on Xite. Now how much better is that that you didn't do so in order to get a strong read on him when you did have the time, did I mention that you wanted to lynch him? If you did, you might not have had to lie to us. (#68)

But my first views are that focusing on who wendy was suspicious of is pointless because it was inHim entering the game and he may have had a totally different view on how things are.

How convenient is it that Wendy was suspicious of you at one point, now tell me, why are you indecisive and a liar? (#78)

So Prana is scum,

1. He's opportunistic
2. There is lack of scum hunting
3. A little bit of opportunism along with either lieing to us about what he thinks about Xite or being ok with lynching people when he doesn't have a strong read on them late in the game
4 Gut and logic says so =p

Vote: PranaDevil

[Lateralus22]

Right, Xite and wendy being town is very interesting, but they are not the stars of this post. the following is a tragic story of the villain scum known as PranaDevil.

First off lets lay out some general info about Prana throughout the whole game.

I'd be happy on either an Xite or a CA lynch right about now. I would be wholly against a Dalt one either.

Nothing too interesting, but it's noted in case it will be useful in this case. (#17)

Regarding the EBWOP for number 5 after, yeah it was a typo, I'd be all for a Dalt lynch after that. I'm not one for an instant "Policy Lynch" as solely focusing on those will take us straight into brown trousers time. However I feel there's a huge difference between a general policy lynch of someone caught out lying, and someone who was using their lies to try and make town believe they were new and didn't really know how to play, especially when there's evidence to prove otherwise. It smells of trying to gain sympathy points and I don't like it.

This is very interesting. Please look at "when there's evidence to prove otherwise." This comes across as complete bs to me especially after Prana defended Dalt until and after he left. Surely when one is ready to lynch scum they'd look at the fine details, or the shades of grey as Prana was willing to preach when he defended Dalt's situation of the game. This comes off as an opportunistic reason to lynch Dalt. (#18)

Okay, I was letting Nexus and Lat have their debate, and seeing what I could get from it.

When he first posted this comment didn't bother me so much, but now later on considering he hasn't done anything with the information in this debate makes me suspicious. This looks like an excuse to not say anything, it is understandable to not interfere directly but I don't understand why he didn't voice his opinion on the matter when it was over. (#23)

On a side note posts #25 - 30 are only arguing about Dalt. #35 - 36 is more fitz Dalt argument and a some fluff.

FoS: Wendy Not liking the play at the moment. I don't mind coming in and looking everyone over, but I would expect there to be more scrutiny in things, and not just firing off at everything without properly paying attention to it.

It's funny because wendy was more scrutiny in things. (#37)

Now are you going to try scum hunting or are you destined to just distract town by tunnelling on me over a completely pointless issue?

This is also funny because you at this point you don't even try to look for scum, all you do is argue with fitz and wendy.

Because even when he said he wasn't joking, it still felt like he was just deadpanning his joke. It was RVS, and as Leech has said, plenty of people joke around in it. I generally hate RVS in general but I do appreciate a good gag as good as the next guy (normally more so in fact) so it seemed like a good line to me.

But I'm with LmL on this one. Wendy's been pushing pointless topics since she entered, has jumped over anyone who so much as looks in her direction and given no true solid reasoning for her actions, while continuing to flog a dead horse when it had died prior to her entering the game.

unvote; vote: tomorrow wendy

Here we go, opportunistic vote at #45, even though you said you were unsure about about wendy's alignment at #42. I've got to say, this is rather odd considering you had FoS'ed wendy, normally when one does that they are suspicious of said person and believe them to be moor likely as scum right? Then why'd you wait for LmL to kick things off so you'd have full support, oh wait because it's opportunistic. (#45)

Great, more fluff at #47, start scum hunting

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch.

I also find Adendy and Xite scummy

Aw thanks for giving us your opinion on Xite, it's good to know you thought he was scummy and that you supported his lynch! (#48 and #48)

however I'd be happy with a Xite lynch too at this stage.

Hey, you still seem to believe this! (#49)

Actually I've not too long ago said CA is still one of my picks as likely scum. I just feel that Wendy or Xite are stronger and better lynches today.

Alright, it seems clear that if your suspicious of Xite and you willing to have him lynched you'd have an opinion on him correct? Note, it's interesting how you add in Xite as a strong and better lynch, were you lying? (#53)

Not got a strong read on Xite, and will need to do an ISO to check him, so will do that come next day phase.

Whoa dude, I thought you wanted to lynch Xite. If you were willing to lynch Xite why the PranaDevil wouldn't you have a strong read on him? Oh wait it's because both candidates were town and you wanted to pick the more obvious and more likely to be lynched for the day's lynch right? (#65)

As for Xite, I don't know, most of the recent game has been wendy distracting the fuck outta me because I've been stuck arguing the second most stupid and ridiculous argument I've ever been a part of on this site (and 3rd overall).

How can you not know about Xite? YOU WANTED TO LYNCH HIM. START SCUM HUNTING (#68)

Xite I may not have a strong read one way or the other

DAMN IT PRANA START SCUM HUNTING. If anything this quote and the last is proof that you're ok with lynching people you don't have strong reads on. Now lets look back to my earlier suggestion, how convenient is it that you didn't have time to do an Iso read on Xite. Now how much better is that that you didn't do so in order to get a strong read on him when you did have the time, did I mention that you wanted to lynch him? If you did, you might not have had to lie to us. (#68)

But my first views are that focusing on who wendy was suspicious of is pointless because it was inHim entering the game and he may have had a totally different view on how things are.

How convenient is it that Wendy was suspicious of you at one point, now tell me, why are you indecisive and a liar? (#78)

So Prana is scum,

1. He's opportunistic
2. There is lack of scum hunting
3. A little bit of opportunism along with either lieing to us about what he thinks about Xite or being ok with lynching people when he doesn't have a strong read on them late in the game
4 Gut and logic says so =p

Vote: PranaDevil

[Lateralus22]

Bah.... forum mess up, ignore the second post, it's the same as the first.

[Lateralus22]

1. I agree with what IAU said, if we lynch then it's day 4 and if we lynch town it is day three. Before Mylo.

2. I don't know, I think we should use the day for discussion but I'm also thinking about a quick no lynch. Somewhere in between should work but I don't really know.

@ Lat: What are the numbers you've inserted in your case? I'm still working on rereading, but my own case on Prana has been building along the way and I'd like to check some of what you mention that is not part of mine so far.
Please respond to the survey as well.

All numbers are from reading Prana is Iso. Something like this, (#) would mean the quote above is the Iso number the quote is for Prana. Any other numbers are referring to what Prana said in what post.

[Lateralus22]

No idea where you're going with this one... at the start I didn't know about Dalt's history, so it came across as trying to get sympathy points. After his history was shown up, and Fitz began his tirade on him I began defending him because I had more information.

This is not true. You made that post and cited that there was evidence against Dalt at post #143. Fitz posted his evidence against Dalt on post #99. How can you say "Oh there's evidence against Dalt" when you can't even be bothered to read it yourself. You saw fitz's post and figured that would get Dalt lynched, you didn't investigate further because that isn't required in your scum win condition.

You'll note that a lot of people playing mafia have their views changed as more information appears, and a lot of my "defence" (not that I need it, but it appears required here) is quite obviously going to be "that was earlier in the day, things happened since". Or are we suggesting something we say early on should be stuck to religiously throughout the game no matter if different evidence comes to light? I'm not one for tunnelling if I can help it unless the person is acting considerably scummy (see: wendy).

Nothing wrong with changing your opinion, it's what you did and how you did that that looks scummy.

Because by the end of it all I'd gained from it is possibly 2 townies arguing (I think I even said as much at one point, but I can understand not posting the pro-town Prana stuff, and only focusing on anything that doesn't show that I was pro-town).

Aww now you're being deflective, how nice. If you want to talk about how you're so pro - town why don't you bring up these points? I don't see them, around 50% of your posts are useless, (I'm generalizing, I notice that around post #30 and until now Prana doesn't really do any good scum hunting) Now seeing how I think so, show me how you're pro town.

We're saying that in hindsight surely? No way was that play using "Scrutiny", no way no how, and I'd be surprised if you said that without laughing. wendy entered, fired off a pointless vote, then because I questioned him, fired one off in my direction and used crap from my first couple of posts to back it up... what? How is that showing scrutiny if you can't be arsed to read the thread when you replace in?

Then we spent the rest of the day with wendy arguing about wanting a no lynch day one, and how it "has" to be a no lynch on day 2 if we don't do it day one... THAT IS NOT USING SCRUTINY, that's being a waste of space. Sorry, but there was barely any scrutiny there... unless you mean that he spent time putting together a nice little excel document that did sweet fuck all for us.

Wendy questioned and pointed out things he thought was scummy. He almost got lynched Day 1 because you can't comprehend him, he had every reason to be mad. Wendy did more than putting together a nice excel document (which btw he said would be good after two flips so why not take a look at it now) he also gave a lot of meta links, none of which you probably haven't looked at. You should though, they're good reads.

At this point I felt one of those was scum as well, hmmm.

It's straight up arguing, I see no hunting other than waving off everything Wendy did, which isn't hunting.

While wendy was targetting me because... hell how the hell should I know at this point? wendy hadn't got a clue where he was going at that point, as he was arguing early game issues, and not (by that point) actually issues that had arisen. hmmm.

Do you honestly have no idea why Wendy was suspicious of you? Go back and read his posts, tell me if you still can't understand and I'll try to explain.

I'll keep this in mind for future reference, if you feel someone is scum, and FOS them, NEVER be the second to vote for them, Lat will be all over your case. I have nothing to defend here, I voted someone I felt was scum. How the smeg does that make me scummy?

Good, look at a point I make on how your scummy then ask a question except you completely leave out the whole point. Loving the deflective you're showing Prana.

Looking back at my case I think I made a little mistake, Wendy did post in between Prana's FoS and vote. That doesn't change my view on his vote being oppertunistic as he does state after his FoS in post #42 that he's unsure about Wendy being scum. Wendy had only made one post and I don't think that post was what made Prana decide to vote Wendy. Wendy was pretty much the same player as he was when Prana said he was unsure of if wendy was scum or not, it looks like he only wanted to vote him when he knew he would have other people to support his vote.

Thanks for missing something else in that post btw.

Great, now what does this do with anything? The one liner you posted is hardly a good analysis and this information wasn't even given until I asked you.

What did I say just earlier in this post? Way to paint me scummy there, search for only the negative, and ignore anything that would counter your points. Nicely attempted that man.

Still wondering what this has to do with anything, I'm unsure on what you're actually speaking about.

Just one post from me afterwards? Amazing that I'd still be feeling the same way isn't it?

This shows that you had believed in an Xite lynch and him being scummy for multiple posts. Makes less sense for you to suddenly forget everything when you've had a similar belief of a user for more than one post.

No, I was being honest "at that point of the game" (This is important boyo)

How strange, that you would be willing to lynch someone you didn't have a strong read on. Only to forget about your earlier thoughts you had on him later when it suited your needs.

Because by this point my brain got royally fried with a combination of running two games elsewhere which went nuts (Nexus will back me up on this, he's on that site too), and more importantly because I got stuck in a pointless argument that I didn't want to be in (and I suppose looking back I should have begun ignoring him... though I felt he was so obv.scum I did get distracted by it), with wendy. At this stage of the game I wanted wendy lynched over anything else, and it showed. All other reads went to shite because I allowed myself to get distracted.

Are you seriously trying to tell me you forgot? Are you freaked kidding me?

So, by "that point in the game" I felt wendy was the strongest lynch candidate, and I'd forgotten how Xite had played previously that made me feel he was scummy, and no longer had the time to properly go back and give a full read on the situation. Does that make me scummy? No. It means I have stuff that needs doing elsewhere (like going to the doctor, getting X Rays done etc. Not that it should make a difference, but you do seem to feel that being busy elsewhere somehow means "don't want to do it" which is bullshite of the greatest amount).

Ugh, how you can not have a strong read on someone at post #65 when you were willing to lynch them post #48? It's like you're saying the more information you got about Xite it made it harder to get a strong read on him.

You wanted to lynch Xite at post #48 so why didn't you do an Iso on him then? Why didn't you do it later on? It's ok to be busy, however it's not ok to lynch someone when you don't have strong reads on them. I think you would agree to this.

Hold it! That bold bit, how is it? I've chosen at this point NOT to vote Xite. You've also taken this one COMPLETELY out of context to further your push for me. I go on to say that "the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is"

That bold bit is a fact that anyone can see by reading this thread, I don't know how you can think otherwise. Great, how does not voting him prove you're innocent? You clearly said you wanted him to be lynched.

At post #48 you said you wanted to lynch Xite.

At post #65 you said you didn't have a strong read on Xite.

This suggests that at post #48 when you were willing to lynch Xite that you didn't have a strong read on him.

It's not out of context, this is a fact. The quote you're using as a defense is just something you've added on so you could lynch wendy that day. I hardly see how it proves you're innocent, if anything this continues to further prove my point.

"the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is" post (#68)

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch. (#48)

This suggests that even though Xite hasn't done anything scummy you were willing to lynch him

Earlier in the game Xite felt scummy to me. By this point in the game he feels decidedly less so, and so I couldn't say outright one way or the other, but wendy had been proving himself to be useless to town at best, and blatantly obviously scummy at worst.

So instead of stating your opinion had changed and that Xite's posts (later on?) had changed your views on him you decided to forget everything that happened, is that right?

It's convenient wendy was suspicious over me early on for zero reason? Or it's convenient we had a back and forth because wendy was being completely worthless to us and distracting town (successfully it would seem in my case)? Now tell me, why are you deliberately ignoring posts and facts that would derail your case?

It's convenient because this is a way for you to try and get everyone away from looking at you without saying it. Why don't you show me the facts I've been ignoring? I really want to see them.

Opinions change, based on a variety of factors. I appreciate you pointing things out, but why didn't you bring this up yesterday when it would have been useful, as opposed to wait until the lynch last night had happened, and we return to the day phase only to then try and make out I'm scummy despite the fact that everything you brought up can be argued away quite simply just by taking a second to think about things. Namely where they are in the game, and the context of what happened.

I didn't have all the information that I had posted against you before Wendy was lynched. Everything I said can't be argued away, and they are in the context of the game. If I am making a mistake don't just tell me show me.

I appreciate that the Xite thing does indeed come across scummy (Hell, I'd have called me out on it too), but I see absolutely nothing else you can call bad play unless you count getting distracted by other bad play of course.

You should read my post again.

- Oppertunistic voting and lyching
- Inconsistent views
- Willing to lynch people when you don't have a strong read on them.
- Lying is most likely somewhere in here, along with the inconsistent views

Had Xite not been given the noose yesterday I'd have gone back over my thoughts about him today, and likely either swung one way or the other, but what you are saying is that when I lost track of where I stood on Xite due to allowing myself to be distracted I SHOULD have lied and said I found him scummy or something.

I'm not saying you should have lied, I am saying you are lying.

I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it, than risk lynching someone that I no longer have had a case on through not following them. How is that scummy? Scummy would have been to continue to push my lynch on Xite without having a case on him. The fact I backed off shows I wasn't ready to lynch anyone at all, and only lynch those I felt that were scummy by that point.

You didn't just back down from Xite, you completely forgot about him and attacked Wendy. What case did you have exactly, did you have any of it saved or are you lying about having a case against him? Yes it is scummy to push on someone without a case, but when you backed off that contradicted your earlier beliefs in wanting to lynch Xite.

You know what else is great? You mention how the town shouldn't be distracted and scum hunt but you continue to let yourself do so to make yourself look like you're active and make it look like you're scum hunting when you're not. It's even better that my case against you will be an excuse not to do any scum hunting right now. If you do happen to be town, you've screwed us over for the day and I'd really like you to start some scum hunting on the very slight chance you aren't scum.

Now where is everyone else? Let's get some more votes on Prana and look for his partner.

[Lateralus22]

It was only after it was proven that Dalt had been on here once before, and then had replaced out, that I began defending him. But that's only if you "can be bothered to read it yourself" of course.

Why would you ever use evidence against someone when you don't know what the evidence is, it's like you're saying what you did was ok.

"Because you can't comprehend him"? No, I comprehended him perfectly well. "We should no lynch, and I'll spend the entire day arguing that point and pushing that argument onto others if given a chance", which, I'll note, he did. Sorry, but Day 1 is often a crap shoot at the best of times, all wendy did was make it even more so because by being town he was pushing something that had already been stated wasn't happening repeatedly by the majority of people. That's not being a good scum hunter in the slightest.

As for the meta links? See above, not only am I not going to go using meta (because I hate it) but I'm not about to spend hours of my day reading old bygone games, those who want to, hey, that's fine, but don't go trying to make out it makes me scummy for choosing not to do so. It's something I've never done, and something I'll never do in the future either.

Sigh… you really should learn to read behind the lines. The meta links were pretty good information, and while we're on the topic would you like to provide us a few of your games as both town and scum?

Go on, explain. When wendy was suspicious of me the ONLY things being pointed out was that I prevented an early gambit that... I had no idea about at all. So tell me, how is that scummy? Apparently it was my fault we didn't catch scum out with someone elses gambit, a gambit I felt was a joke... I'm sorry, but if that's the scrutiny that we're basing wendy's play on, I think it leaves a lot to be desired.

I really do hope you're scum now, this is going to waste a bit of my time.

Wendy was a pretty awesome guy. Making assumptions is part of any investigation so let's make a few.

Rules state you play to your win con right? Let's assume he was doing so. Keep in mind everything he did he had a town mindset.

Now let's also assume he's someone who plays mafia for fun, he's likes to mess with all of us. First half of his posts were more towards questioning why people did certain things while the second half was more on game theory. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of Wendy's actions were just to get reactions, everything else people did not understand was Wendy was saying. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often.

Wendy Iso #36 is a fantastic example of both. In this post it's a clear attempt to buddy with me, to see what my reaction would be. He also gets to see Nexus's reactions plus others seeing this post would be wondering what Wendy was thinking since this Nexus suspicion is new and respond if they wanted to. This would bring out information.

Iso #37 is just him screwing with all of us and making fun of Xite. That's why everything he had listed is reasoned as Gut, because we all know how Xite likes to use Gut for everything.

Iso #39 Wendy is demonstrating how to prove a random vote. Something Korash k had done very early in the game but does not give evidence that makes it certain. He also gives a witty comment, again to let us know he's joking and screwing with us.

Rather than waste a bunch of brain resources, I did the equivalent of flipping a coin, and we got to share a teaching moment as a side benefit.

Does no one else smile when they read this post?

Wendy's excel sheet will be useful in the future, even a little bit now. Even though we all agree to this let's stop bashing him for making the future days easier for us.

Iso #65 Wendy makes another joke, again did no one think was funny?

LmL - Why does everyone have to be freaken Professor Mafia?
Wendy - Actually I am Professor freaking mafia, "shows award"

This isn't really contributing much to scum hunting of course, I'm just trying to show that there were reasons for Wendy's posts. That being said it's interesting to note how LmL said Wendy was claiming to be a great scum hunter when he was claiming to be great at scum.

Iso #73 states that his self vote and no lynch were to get over eager scum. Wasn't really a bad idea as he had the disguise of a newbie, and with many people on him the scum might have gone after him.

Iso #76 Here's the meta report. It's too bad Xite was town, but regardless this was still useful. There's more than just links to Xite though.

Prana, if someone was to use meta against you what kind of accusations do you believe you would be faced against?

Iso #102 Gets mad at Prana, this I think is the real point where he explodes. It's understandable that someone would get mad if they constantly had to repeat themselves.

Now you're probably wondering what anything had to do with you, first off Wendy starts questioning why you weren't of the gambit. It is strange that you understood the setup you still did not go on with the gambit. Even if you did think he was joking why didn't you claim ahead anyway?

There are multiple possible answers for this, the one Wendy probably thought of

Scum - Ha ha IAU I see through your gambit and it won't work!

Also you not being a part of it hurts the chance for it to work at all which could save your partner. The problem is proving this is very hard, if not possible so he questioned you find out information.

That's just making stuff up to fit your case and you know it. You're stating what my thought process was, when you have no idea what my thought process was.

What my view point was, is that wendy was acting scummy as hell, and after thinking about it, he deserved a vote more than a FoS. Done deal. You're either stretching things to fit your opinion of me as being scum, or you are scum deliberately trying to paint me as scum. But either way this one was a huge, massive stretch to get the answer you're getting.

Is it?

Did you just randomly decide, hey Wendy's scummy I'll vote him?
What factors affected your choice?
Was Wendy's post between your FoS and vote important in making your vote?
Was there any new evidence brought up against Wendy that made you decide to vote against him?
Did others opinions have any affects on your vote for Wendy?

Except I stated earlier in my last post why I didn't give an analysis or any information prior to you asking. I see absolutely ZERO reason why I should say "X and Y appear pro-town in my eyes" it benefits the scum a whole lot more than it benefits the town. Neither of you looked likely to be lynched, and thus voicing my opinion that, at that point, I felt you were both town arguing, would have helped nobody but scum. Why are you deliberately ignoring my point about that?

Was there any holes in my reasoning, what about Wendy's defense? If you do make an analysis would it not provide content for the town to use in order to find scum?

I was referencing that earlier in my previous post I had stated that I said you and Nexus appeared pro-town, and that I had said so later. And I'd also explained why I didn't mention it. I note again you refused to acknowledge that fact though, as though announcing who the pro-town seeming players are somehow helps us catch scum.

What?

Saying Lat / Nexus looks town then says so later while giving a one line description while explaining why you didn't give an analysis = countering my points and being town?

Does this make sense to anyone? Can you show me which part of my case you're talking about?

Hold up here. You're saying I'm scummy because my feelings on someone changed from "I think he's scum" to "Not really got an opinion"? Seriously? Other people stood out more to me (CA, wendy, Fitz) to the point that I didn't have as strong of a read on Xite as I did on those three.
In fact... this entire Xite thing is you suggesting that because I ORIGINALLY said he felt like likely scum early on, that I have to retain that thought for the REMAINDER of the game, is that what we are suggesting here? Because if it is I severely think you need to rethink about how you play this game.

What?

It changed from "Lynch the witch!" to "I don't see anything interesting" WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASONING AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY

It's ok to change your opinion, but it's even better to start explaining how it changes and why when the time happens instead of completely forgetting what your past suspicions were.

Someone who appears scummy could even continue to appear scummy, but if others appeared scummier you would rather lynch them. In this case Xite slipped from my radar after a short while at the same time I became more and more suspicious of wendy. It stands to reason I would focus more of my attention (especially closing in on the end of the first day, which we were) on getting the person I feel is scum lynched.

You stated that he was one of the two best and strong lynches for the day, can I really only expect you to be suspicious of one person for being scum and being lynched? Can I really expect you'll completely forget your past suspicions later on?

I also point out that when my feelings on Xite slipped. I STOPPED trying to lynch him. I note this again because, once more, you are refusing to pick up on it. I never once tried to lynch someone who I "didn't have a strong read on" because at that stage of the game I had a stronger read on Xite than I did on others come later on. I would hope you are going to continue attacking anyone who placed a vote on someone and has since stated that they don't have a solid read one way or another.

You stated you thought he was a good lynch. Meaning you are willing to participate in his lynch if the time comes. I barely even know what're trying to say, you're feeling slipped is just another way to say you forgot everything that happened and went after the easiest target is it not?

No, early game he still felt somewhat scummy, by the time wendy had gone nuts, Xite hadn't posted anything that I could see (standing out at least) overtly scummy. However it's also true I was focusing my attention on wendy more than most by this point, however I had planned to do a full read on Xite when we returned, I've stated this previously as well (before we even went to night phase no less), and something may have stood out more then, I don't know, I'm not about to go wasting my time searching Xite's posts at the moment when he got lynched. Thus rather than "forgetting everything from before" which is just stupid, it was simply that I was no longer paying as close attention to Xite, which meant he felt less scummy to me after that point, and as I had wound up not paying extra attention to his posts because I was having a lot (and yes, likely too much, I admit) of back and forth with wendy. You are suggesting I should have lied and said I felt Xite was scummy when I didn't feel he was by this point. By telling the truth you are claiming I am lying, yet by what you are saying, you are suggesting I should have lied. This makes no sense!

Sigh… If I have ever stated any where that you should lie please quote that and show me. Until then I am going to assume you're putting words in my mouth, until then I guess we might has well say having inconsistent suspicions on people is ok along with using I forgot as an excuse for scummy behavior. I can't see any pro town player completely ignoring not only someone who he was suspicious of and believed was a strong lynch but also forgetting when he had these suspicions, which were there for more than one post.

Okay… let's see those:

1 - How? Show me my "opportunistic voting and lynching". I've not once been "opportunistic" in my voting, I voted wendy after only ONE vote had gone on him, one, not 3 or 4 which would be opportunistic, a single lone vote. I voted because I found wendy scummy. Done deal.

2 - Inconsistant views... we're back to the Xite thing again aren't we? That's the only legitimate thing I'll accept, but that's due to focusing on wendy over Xite, which is bad play on my part, not scummy play on my part. There's a difference.

3 - Willing to lynch... ah bollocks, this crap thing again, read up above, I've already answered it, and you're just wrong and talking out your ass to make your story fit, it's the old case of "say something enough times and people will believe it" routine that has been used for years.

4 - Lying... yeah... not done so yet, however you're on my case because I dared to be honest.

1. Take a look and see, and yes that vote was opportunistic. You are lying again. Your vote wasn't the second. It was the 4th. Post #355 Night / Xite are voting for Wendy. LmL then votes. Then you vote. YOU LIED.

2. Yeah we're back to Xite. Then again forgetting any suspicions you've had is ok now so whatev.

3. You said you thought Xite was a strong lynch, are you denying this?

4. I don't know man, but apparently forgetting everything you do is ok now so whatev, but it's interesting to go back to the "uses evidence against people without reading it" I can't even see a town player who wants to win not read the thread. Did you even click the link that havingfitz posted, you would have seen that the game was two years ago, a point you defended.

So I'm now scummy because I don't have a notepad file, or an excel file keeping tabs of absolutely everything that goes on? Seriously?! I'm supposed to store and save tons of data just to play this game? If you do that, fine, well done for you, but don't expect everyone else who plays the game to do the same. Sorry for not being such an uber scum hunter like yourself.

Why can't you comprehend me? That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it

This post sounds like you had a case against Xite, I am asking you if you have a case. Now you're going on about you don't take notes.

Does this mean the case you had does not exist?

No, I admit I got distracted, but it had nothing to do with "looking active", and everything to do with "I honestly thought wendy was scum trying to distract town", unfortunately I wound up distracted by that as a whole, but I'm still going to state wendy's play was, at best, anti-town, and at worst, scummy. Even if he did flip town.

Sigh… still missing the point. I want you to start scum hunting right now. As in now. Do you know when? Now? Still wondering when? Start scum hunting.

I love this line, you may as well be saying, "Hey, what's everyone else doing? I'm going to keep tunnelling on Prana so come join me."

whatev, nevermind Prana's town and we should all stop being active.

Prana (I'm not sold on the Prana case at this point. I think he defended himself well enough for me right now.)

I'm confused, how exactly did he defend himself well? His defense consisted of,

1. Wah Lateralus tell everyone how pro town I am
2. I forgot
3. Wendy sucks
4. I keep forgetting

Oh wait forgetting is cool if you're acting scummy.

Is there something I'm missing from post #656? Is there any holes in my reasoning?

Also can we please not use WIFOM as the basis of our cases on how people are scummy? One thing is clear from observation, without wendy the day starts with a clean slate. Sure there's some small suspicions but nothing really to get us going fast as how wendy being alive was (NO PRANA DOESN'T COUNT). If the day might have gone on it's possible scum might have been exposed or caught the day afterwards for whatever reason so they played it safe and started the day with a clean slate. If anything I actually think both scum are on separate wagons, it didn't really matter which one died.

[Lateralus22]

Buh?

Explanation of Dalt stuff:

Fitx gives case against Dalt, I am in agreement Dalt does look scumm, at this time not checking the Meta link (See... I may have said it before, but... I hate freakin' meta, I REFUSE to read it, catch me here? I also don't expect someone else to balls it up so spectacularly), and agree that what Dalt's done is somewhat scummy.

Someone else then points out the gaping holes in Fitz' logic... and I proceed to realize the mistake in pushing the Dalt case immediately afterwards. How the hell is realizing I made a mistake in attacking Dalt and backing off scummy?

Sigh… this isn't about back off the dal case… this is about citing something as evidence when you can't even be bothered to read it… the links weren't even about comparing one's style and seeing how people play… it's just straight up did dalt play in a game or not…

Game theory = bad town play. I did it myself in a previous game, and realized afterwards. Game theory is best left to the MD forum, placing it in the game threads just wastes time and... oh yeah, distracts sodding town!

If distracting town is bad why did you participate in that?

First let's get one thing straight, I haven't ever said Wendy was "OBV" town. town and obv town are two different things. Yes all my reasoning is the final conclusion from seeing wendy is town and then trying to find out the reasons for what he did. I don't even understand some of your points, it's focused more on the reasons for wendy's actions not how they give evidence for his role.

So… an attempt to buddy is obviously pro-town trying to get reactions? It's easy to say that in hindsight because we know he was town, at the time it was scummy. Simple as that.

No it isn't evidence to being town. In fact when he did so this did bother me, but yes I do believe the getting reactions was pro town. It gave out more information for the town to use.

That's suggesting everyone who is scum plays the game the same. This is not true.

Is vote analysis a way that will help town catch scum?

Of course there were "reasons for wendy's posts", but there's reasons for scum posts too. You can't honestly tell me that what you've posted so far is proof wendy was obv. town here. You've actually only proven so far that, beyond creating an excel sheet, wendy was being useless (and the excel sheet is close to that too)

sigh… why would I go back and try to find scum reasons for his actions? It's just going to waste time, I'm not trying to convince wendy was a good townie I'm just trying to explain the reasons for his actions. No this isn't proof of wendy being town these are the reasons I think of knowing that he's town. I'm telling you the why not the what.

Yeah, because scum never quickly back up on something and claim it was to catch scum do they? This is not a defence for his actions, and only looking back in hindsight.

Yeah, I guess, it can go either way. The reason I gave fits more of a townie gameplay, a scum game play would be too risky.

Yeah… considering I had to repeat myself back to him countless times, and am now doing so to you, I know the feeling. But I try not to lose my cool over it, y'know?

You didn't understand what he was saying.

Why didn't I claim anyway? Because... y'know... I laughed at it and moved on. If I believe someone is just joking I'll simply laugh and move on, instead of taking it seriously. But you've even said there are multiple possibilities (the one I just said is the true one of course, but why let that get in the way of you posting the only one that keeps up your "Prana is scum" bollocks?)

Yes there are, the situation's like a pizza, take or add what toppings you want. Should I really make a list of? Wendy was town, that is a fact. Again I'm not trying to prove wendy was town, I'm trying to explain his actions, it's ok if you don't agree with that. Now knowing wendy was town do you have any explanations for his questions that doesn't lead to Prana is scum?

I don't remember specifics at this moment in time and I'm not about to go checking back through the thread solely to prove something that is pissing ridiculous to ask. Unless you are going to ask everyone on both wagons to provide exact reasons why they voted for someone at the exact time they did.

Look, I asked those questions for a reason. They will let everyone know wether your vote was opportunistic or not. If you don't want to explain that's fine, but it doesn't help you.

Simple answer: I found wendy scummiest in the game at that point, thus I voted for him. Is that not how this game works? How are we suggesting that me voting for someone who was utterly useless and distracting being scummy? Why are you not pushing everyone on that wagon if he was so obviously town and just me?

Simple answer: It was a good point in the game for you to switch your vote on wendy. It doesn't require an original thought and you had the support of other people. Is not a good place to put your vote? I want to know what the situation was and how wendy changed your view. Sigh… again this really isn't that much about wendy, you already know the others factors that play in.

These two things go together, and wendy's defence? I thought it was you and Nexus? I just felt at the time you were likely town arguing. Again, it is not beneficial for town to have pro-town players revealed because that allows scum to know how they're doing, and allows scum to know who definitely needs killing that night. It helps scum, and doesn't really help town all that much.

How do they go together? This really seems to be close to offtopic.

Not about forgetting "past suspicions" but all about "I didn't really follow him from the point I got hung up with wendy", and as I've repeatedly said, this is bad town play, and I accept that, calling me scummy for it is stretching to a hideous degree.

I don't see how I'm stretching it at all. Wendy and Xite were the two top lynches. You were ready to lynch both, wendy exploded, went after the easiest target. If you said you were all for an Xite lynch why would you later say that nothing really stuck out to you?

See, this is how you're deliberately trying to paint me in a bad light, you keep saying I forgot, when really if I "forgot" to do something it was to stop following Xite after wendy picked up, so can we please stop saying I "forgot" Xite was scummy, and state the truth that I felt wendy was scummy, but that I had also said I still felt Fitz had done enough earlier with pushing Dalt to appear scummy, and that CA still felt off to me. But shall we forget all that in favour of "it was only wendy or Xite", because anything else harms your case right?

Actually… these questions were more towards a bad townie mindset. Did you forgot Xite was scummy? Yes or no? Can you give me evidence to support your claims?

No. Stop trying to bend things to fit your opinion here. I'm getting sick of it.

If I was so willing to participate in the lynch of him... Why did I refuse to jump to it? fucksake. The entire "you were willing to lynch someone you didn't have a strong read on" is rendered totally null and void by that one small fact that I DIDN'T LYNCH HIM. Sweet jesus.

That isn't true. I like Latin and I'm willing to finish my homework today. Just because I decide that my English homework was more important to finish today and that I could only finish one of the two subjects doesn't mean I wasn't willing to finish my Latin homework.

So you putting words in my mouth repeatedly is perfectly okay and normal? (Just check through the post I'm replying to, you did it a few times) But the second you can claim I'm doing the same to you it's scummy scum scum? Riiiiight.

I haven't put words in your mouth, I took what you said and drew logical conclusions from them. Either directly quoting what you said or paraphrasing.

You are saying I should lie because I dared to be honest about how I went from pushing Xite, to not pushing Xite. Again, was it good town play? No, course not, and I think the rest of the game would agree. Does it make me scummy? No.

Never said you should lie. From pushing Xite to not pushing Xite it doesn't likely at all that a townie would forget their accusations an even say that their earlier suspect did nothing that stuck out.

What you are suggesting I should have done is continue to push the case on Xite so that I did not appear to have backed off from it, doing that would be claiming I had a case when, by that point, I didn't. Basically I either lied and pushed a cash, or I did what I did do, and that's stopped pushing the case and... get called scummy for it? What? That makes no sense. Your case thus far doesn't make any sense.

This is false, my attack on you for forgetting about Xite shows the opposite. You forgot everything you did and went after the easiest target, am I missing something?

How's about... when I said I was second on the wagon it was through not checking it and taking you saying LmL voted and then I did as stating I jumped on the wagon second. I wasn't about to go hunting to find out exactly what number on the wagon I was, and so I took what you said about it and used that. So no, not lying. What is it with you and effing lying?

Either way, I don't really care where I was on the wagon, all I care about is I was voting someone who was the scummiest player on day 1 in my eyes. Done deal.

I don't remember saying you were second on the wagon, if I did show me. You are saying that were on the wagon second as a defense for your vote not being opportunistic. What am I supposed to think when that is turned out to be a lie and that the reason you gave was a lie. You even stated that voting 3rd or 4th would be opportunistic, does this mean you are saying your vote is opportunistic?

No, I'm not. I said he was a good lynch AT THAT TIME.

Are you suggesting someone who is a good lynch at point A in the game HAS to therefore be a good lynch come point H in the game? Because that's what you're suggesting to me here.

When someone's a good lynch that means they've done scummy things. Just because the game moves on does not mean the scummy things they had done go away. You are suggesting that they do.

Dalt case, read above.

You also lied about your vote being second as a way to defend yourself on the accusation that your vote was opportunistic.

No, it is what you said, you asked me where my notes were and if I'd saved them. I have no notes, thus if I'd simply said that you would start harping on about not having a case to begin with, blah blah blah. We already know this, and it's damned obvious.

Ah… so you did that anyway? Nicely done that man.

The last two quotes were supposed to read at the same time because they were on the same point.

I thought you said you had a case, that implies you have reasons to believe someone is scum. It would make sense for someone to write this stuff down. You said you lost track of the case and didn't have time to properly go over it. This implies that there is a physical case and that you didn't go over it. All I want to know is if that is true. No need to be angry. Now tell me if there is any misunderstanding?

Right back at ya buddy. But you're right... I need to start working out who scum are, thankfully I think I have a nice easy start thanks to your tunneling.

What point am I missing?

This is good! I expect to see what conclusions you draw, and I do also expect to see any thoughts you have on who my scum partner would be if I was scum. Do you have any others things you'd like to point out?

Now where is everyone else? Let's get some more votes on Prana and look for his partner.

This quote has 3 points

Where is everyone is looking at the activity of the thread, as you can tell there isn't very much now. I want everyone to be more active.

Let's get some more votes on Prana is clear. Prana's scum so why not vote him?

and looks for his partner applies that we should be looking for Prana's partner. This will take attention away from Prana and look at other suspects.

Wrong there, you asked everyone to hop on my wagon. That's not asking everyone to be active, that's trying to get people to join you.

It is doing both, you can look my explanation above for that.

So… scum hunting... scum number 1 would be...

vote: Lateralus22
Tunelling, blatant putting words in my mouth, and pretty much using hindsight to make his case on me in regards to saying how obv. town wendy is.

Tunneling - I am having a conversation with you am I not? I have about 3 or 4 posts against you for the day, now since you're using tunneling as a point against me what do you think about the nexus situation? From your viewpoint you can argue that I tunneled Nexus there so why did you not point it out?

blatant putting words in my mouth - please show me where I'v done so. I'v already explained my points against you are using quotes or I am paraphrasing. I suggest you show the evidence, a nice this is where he put words in my mouth section of your posts would be helpful. Please post text examples to support your claims.

and pretty much using hindsight to make his case against me in regards to saying how obi. town wendy is - This is not true. You asked me to explain wendy's actions and I did. I never once stated wendy was OBV town. Yes I did have the belief he was town. The post parts about wendy had little to do with how your scum, please do not misunderstand me. I was trying to explained the why to wendy's actions to show his reasons for what he did, I was not trying to prove wendy to be town, I don't recall ever saying I was.

Cue "Obvious scum with an OMGUS vote" response... now!

Very interesting, I probably would have called out on OMEGUS but it's really the reasoning you've had that bothers me more as point one isn't very strong at all, and I am confused as to why you had not called me out on it earlier since by your definition of tuning I had down it before, point two I can't find the putting words in your mouth, and point three is a complete misunderstanding that has little to do with you. The point you made is very interesting.

[Lateralus22]

Llama are you willing to lynch Prana?

Also I think it's too late in the day, there is a possibility that scum will use my situation with Prana as a way to start a WIFOM which I do not want. Also since Prana's scum we should lynch him.

[Lateralus22]

It wasn't though, because the link being there showed that Dalt was "in" a game previously. It was later evidence that proved that while he was, in theory, in the game, he wasn't actually playing it and was replaced quickly (like here). It's a completely different issue once that was brought in. I did not need to click the link initially because... well surely that would be logical enough to assume that whoever posted the link wasn't lying about him being here?

Weren't you curious about the conditions of the game and how long ago it was?

My problem with it, is that it's solely looking at it in hindsight, what you are suggesting is that scummy or poor play can be simply explained away as good play after they're gone and shown to be town. This is not true. Thus just because wendy flipped town, it does not mean to say his play was actually any good.

So now we're going to argue about whether wendy was a good town or not? I tried to explain Wendy's actions just as you had asked, it wasn't being used against you. Yeah, someone being town doesn't make their play good however when someone is proven town it highly suggests they had a town mindset in mind.

I'm not asking you to find scum reasons for his actions. I'm pointing out that you suggesting that he had reasons, is suggesting scum wouldn't have a reason for those same actions. Ergo it doesn't add up. Okay, he was town... but what he was doing was anti-town in more ways than one, and I've explained why.

I disagree, I've explained why.

Doesn't that bring in a two ton lump of WIFOM?

Which is why I didn't use that as a sole reason for Wendy being town when he was in the game. Even while he was in the game I considered the possibility of him being scum.

Let's say I smelt what he was cooking, and it was grade A monkey crap /rock

What?

How's about... oh I dunno... wendy was going off all guns blazing at someone who didn't go all out agreeing with him, and in fact was dismissing his crap as worthless (which most of it was)?

Put it this way, say I'm the lynch today, or I get night killed, does that mean our entire exchange and my vote on you all adds up to "Lateralus is scum, no two ways about it"? Of course not. It means nothing more than we had an exchange and there's a possibility I was on the right track, but absolutely nothing more. It's not an outright fact that because Player A was town and had an exchange with Player B, that Player B must be scum.

Didn't look like that to me, I'll read over his posts again to see,

Ah I think I get your point, you're still completely misunderstanding me. I'm not saying your exchange with wendy makes you scum. I was explaining why WENDY thought you were scum. That's very different from saying your exchange with wendy made you scum.

You don't put words in my mouth? Riiiiight.

Right

Okay… seriously now? Seriously?

These two things go together because they are talking about the exact same damned hting, and you've been avoiding that fact ever since your first post.

You state I didn't give what I said about the you/Nexus situation, I have stated why (It's bad town play to announce who appears to be town), and I also stated that I pointed out I did (when questioned by you) state I felt you were both town, but refused to expand beyond that.

THAT'S IT, that's the entire thing. But you've been treating them as two seperate things right from the off.

Yes seriously, do a better job explaining if you want me to understand.

Ok so this is what I've understood from your post,

Me - didn't talk about Nex / Lat
Prana - Gave a one liner saying you did

Alright but… how does this prove your town?

Because after wendy exploded stupidly (lol, easy target... more like scummy play, but whatever), I focused more on wendy.

Are you suggesting good town play would be to still be for a Xite lynch late in the game but only have a case for the first half of the game day?

If yes, then it's shitty play.

If no, then thank you for agreeing with me, can we move on?

Wendy was town, now you're saying it was scummy play to explode. This means that scum can justify attacking wendy because his exploding was scummy. that makes him an easy target.

The rest of your points there are many variables to take into account and it's very situational so it's difficult me to answer.

What? You're basically suggesting that while I could have easily jumped on Xite and guarenteed he was lynched. The fact I continued to push for a wendy lynch and was actually annoyed people couldn't see why he should be the lynch candidate over all else is somehow scummy?

WHAT?! You are making zero sense to me here. I wanted Xite lynched... yet refused to jump on his wagon, and pushed heavily for the wendy one instead? How does that make sense if I wanted to lynch Xite? What the freakin' hell man?! Make some god damned sense because you're actually annoying me with your point blank refusal to listen to any kind of logical issue here.

What's with the first point? Wendy was an easier target so you went after him. (For your sake read as scummy since it appears to me you are refusing to acknowledge wendy as an easy target for scum, if this is not true tell me)

If scum wants to lynch two people they will attack the easiest target to lynch. Do you disagree with this?

Sigh at the second thing you say…

There was a point in the game you thought both Wendy and Xite were good lynches. Wendy explodes being an easier lynch and you go after him. Can you understand?

Except for all those times that your "paraphrasing" has actually been "here's what your mindset was at this point". Which isn't paraphrasing, it's bullshitting and putting words in my mouth.

Show me, these are the quotes I am using. It's either these that I've been making logical conclusions from or the posts you are using to respond to me right now.

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch.

I also find Adendy and Xite scummy

however I'd be happy with a Xite lynch too at this stage.

Not got a strong read on Xite, and will need to do an ISO to check him, so will do that come next day phase.

As for Xite, I don't know, most of the recent game has been wendy distracting the fuck outta me because I've been stuck arguing the second most stupid and ridiculous argument I've ever been a part of on this site (and 3rd overall).

the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is, mainly because wendy HAS done a ton of stuff that's so scummy that I've seen less scummy scum.

That much of an easy target that Xite got lynched and not wendy right?

Are we now to assume that anyone acting so anti-town and scummy should never be lynched because if they're town then people who were pushing it were only going for "the easiest target"? Are we suggesting we should all now go and target someone who has done nothing scummy and try and push them for nothing at all, because they're not the "easy target"?

Holy balls.

Sigh… both are town so scum want to lynch them. both have done scummy things that scum can use to get them lynched. Are you trying to tell me that Xite stuck out more to you?

Not even sure where you're getting your second point from. Are you trying to tell me scum will want to lynch someone who hasn't done anything scummy?

Why all the "you lied, rawr!" bollocks?

I took what you were saying at face value (rather stupid I suppose, maybe I'm generally too trusting that people wont balls something up spectacularly), and assumed that what you meant by voting after LmL meant I was second on the wagon. If I was 4th, I was 4th, all I knew was wendy wasn't at L-1 and I voted him. Done.

The post was written in a neutral tone, no need to be so defensive. Since you bring it up though, you lied, rawr.

The letter m is after l, are you going to assume the letter l is the second letter of the alphabet?

Xite's early play I found very suspect. Xite's late play I failed to get enough of a read on as most of my attention went to wendy. Are we clear on this yet?

Then why did you say this?

As for Xite, I don't know

the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is, mainly because wendy HAS done a ton of stuff that's so scummy that I've seen less scummy scum.

The early scummy play doesn't "vanish" but I REFUSE to lynch someone if I don't have a solid read on them. When I was keeping close tabs on all players I spotted scummy play from Xite. When my attention got drawn to wendy I wound up not keeping a close eye on Xite, which means, amazingly enough, I no longer had what I felt to be a solid read on him.

So you forgot the scummy things Xite did?

I know they were the same point, I was being facetious.

Please do so more clearly, I don't want any misunderstandings.

Thus, my "case" on him was from what he posted and reading over it. You are making out that because I don't "write this stuff down" that it's somehow scummy on my part by using it in a case against me.

Sigh… alright, does this also mean you have cases on everything player in the game since you can do the same thing for every player?

If I'm using this as a case against you I must be doing a pretty bad job considering my last post was trying to clear up a misunderstanding and that Im willing to drop it if it is.

Sorry, but that's scummy. If I wind up lynched today I would hope to hell everyone turns on you tomorrow, because you've admitted that you are tunnelling on me, and are admitting to not going to look for "other" scum, but solely anyone who could be "Prana's partner", this is not pro-town play, this is tunnelling play. What happens when I'm shown to be town? Do you go "oh, sorry" and move on? You should be looking elsewhere as well because there's no definite answer on who is or isn't scum. Deciding that one player is scum and refusing to consider otherwise is crap play.

I'll be very, very confused. Your crappy play will also lose the town a day. If I believe you are scum why wouldn't I try to get you lynched, why wouldn't I look for your partner? If something sticks out about another player that I think is scummy then I'll probably attack them for it.

Because at the time it felt like two town going at it, the fact you're doing it again after your nexus case fell through, and to someone different, hoping to get more support this time is, in my mind, telling. Thus I'm pointing it out now.

Why didn't you point this out when I was attacking Xite, is it only scummy if I'm tunneling you? Why didn't you reference me tunneling Nexus and Xite when you made your point?

Have done twice in this post alone, that's just a single post, but if you honestly want me to rip you a new one by pointing them all out, I shall endevour to do so when I wake up tomorrow.

Please do that.

You were solely using hindsight, and stating that wendy's actions basically show how town he was IN HINDSIGHT. Suggesting that I was attacking wendy for anything other than finding him scummy is ridiculous, and suggesting wendy was attacking me for anything outside of attacking him is just as ridiculous because that's exactly how it went.

So what are you trying to say. Explaining the reasons for a proven townie's actions is scummy? It's ok that you thought he was scummy and that you didn't understand the reasoning for why he did things. Now that I explained I think you won't be confused.

I'd say the point I made was rather bang on target.

Ah no that's not what I was talking about. Your comment come across to me as a in before or I'm going to point out something I do that you think is scummy before you point it out and it reminded me of this game where scum said a similar thing, post #258 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2065966

Before you go on about how meta is bad and all I'm simply pointing this out as interesting, it isn't really that solid to have you lynched for this.

So Prana, since you want to move this away from the conversation between me and you, who do you think is scum?

[Lateralus22]

Show me where I said that Mr. "I don't put words in your mouth".

No, I'm not. I said he was a good lynch AT THAT TIME.

Are you suggesting someone who is a good lynch at point A in the game HAS to therefore be a good lynch come point H in the game? Because that's what you're suggesting to me here.

There ya go

Here's my response that I posted earlier,

When someone's a good lynch that means they've done scummy things. Just because the game moves on does not mean the scummy things they had done go away. You are suggesting that they do.

The whole dismissing someone being a good lynch at point A and saying they have have to be a good lynch at point H comes across as you saying that just because it's point H that it's difference. It's also noted that point H is later on in the game because you dismiss someone being lynched at point H it sounds like you're saying the scummy things they did at point A vanish.

[Lateralus22]

No. Please listen to me on this point instead of ignoring what I am saying.

I did not feel need to because it was put across as "Dalt has played here before, here's proof" and I took that at face value. What part of "I don't use meta" is hard to understand here?

It was WHEN the evidence came up that I not only backed off the case, but started looking at the issue of Dalt more logically and argued that case with Fitz. That's the entirety of it, there's no hidden agenda, there's no "You say that, but you mean this" like you keep suggesting with half of your case on me, that's everything to do with it.

Alright first off, the evidence was all there in the thread havingfitz posted. Second I can't imagine any pro town player not investigating something someone claims to be as evidence for any another, and then wave that link citing it was proof that dalt lied.

How does it prove I'm scum? You need to be showing why it makes me scum, not me showing why it makes me town.

Want to know what it makes me? Clever for not giving scum more information than they need.

Right, ok, still kinda confused but I'm dropping this point then.

Are you therefore suggesting that town players should never attack someone who is looking like obvious scum?

It's a null tell is what it is, at least at this stage of the game. If later in the game you can prove someone has been bouncing their vote around on any popular wagon, then hey, go for it... but after they apparently did it a single time, when they feel someone is scum? No... not really a stronge case there.

First off nooooooooo, never said that, give me a direct quote. Also let's say there's a vi in the game doing scummy or anti town things, scum can very easily justify their vote against them for a lynch, that doesn't make them not scum.

Second point mehh, when you did it it does come off opportunistic to me.

You are refusing to acknowledge that wendy appeared scummy, if this is not true, tell me.

I can completely understand why you think wendy is scummy, and when wendy was in the game I disagreed without that. Now that's a clever way to avoid the question isn't it? Do you believe scum might possibly try to get wendy lynched?

Depends if it would look scummy to do so. If it would be diving on someone they've spent all game defending to that point, I highly doubt they'll jump on the case.

Do you think it would look scummy to try and get wendy lynched?

No, I'm telling you that, by what you are suggesting, I shouldn't have voted for wendy for being scummy, because voting someone who appears scummy, who then flips town, is scummy.

That makes no sense. By that token we should never wagon someone unless we're 100% positive, in which case why aren't you attacking anyone who hopped on the Xite case? It would appear he was the easier lynch by the end of the day.

Nope, never suggested that at all. you realize there's more to my opportunistic point that he voted wendy he must be scum lulz? It was the situation you were in and how the transition between FoS and vote was. It also factored in Wendy's character plus the evidence supplied against along with factoring other player's opiniones that could change your view.

Are you really suggesting that Xite was the easier lynch? It took a lot of effort on the part of the Xite wagon to make sure he was lynched and not wendy.

Okay, this is getting effing ricockulus.

EARLY DAY I found him scummy.

LATE DAY I hadn't been following his play close enough to have a read for that portion of it.

So no, it doesn't vanish, I never suggested for once Xite's play vanished, but if I have a stronger read on wendy, and have stopped paying close attention to Xite's play, I will REFUSE to give a read on that player. It would be scummy as all hell to be willing to lynch a player I do not have a read on.

Hmmm, this quote suggests otherwise.

the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to

Remember Prana before this you had said you were willing to lynch Xite.

All this bollocks about "You didn't have a strong read on him and wanted to lynch him" is just that, utter bollocks. At the time I wanted to lynch him I had a scum read on him, at the time I said I didn't... lo and behold, I hadn't been following him, and it's anti-town at the very best to continue to push someone's lynch at that point.

So understand that, I wanted a lynch on him when he felt scummy, and when I got tied up with wendy I wound up not paying as much attention elsewhere as I'd have liked. My mistake? Too damned right, I've said it before. But IT DOES NOT MAKE ME FREAKING SCUMMY. Stop moving the goal posts.

What you are suggesting is that when I no longer had a read on Xite I was pushing for his lynch, and that is completely untrue, and massive fabrication that you know you have created.

Sigh… still not seeing how more information will equal to a weaker read. Your views on someone alignment may change but the read itself I disagree, that being said are you willing to give evidence to support your view on Xite as a weaker read, possibly post a few examples in the game that led you to not think he was scum?

Oh also I am suggesting that at the time you wanted to lynch Xite you didn't have a strong read, nothing more, nothing less.

No idea what you mean here, I'm assuming you mean do I have a case on every player... and of course not, I like to think of myself as intelligent (though readily admit I often have trouble getting my point across), but I'm not able to keep tabs on everything every player does, that means re-reads and checking what's said etc. likely multiple times. But that's how I play. I always thought that was how the majority played if I'm honest with you.

You spoke of the case against Xite and said you didn't look over it. That suggests that there was physical case, if not please clearly say what you mean so there are no more misunderstandings. I guess we both agree that this is a misunderstanding?

Ah, so me defending myself, and not actually doing anything scummy is my crappy play? Or could it be you're hoping I'll make an easy target and you can swing people onto my wagon? You attacked me for pointing out wendy's play was crappy, but now you're saying mine is, hypocritical don't you think?

I was speaking about your play as a whole, really the major difference between you and Xite and Wendy is at least the two of them were scum hunting in their own way. You're either keeping all your information secret or you are lacking in that area. I don't think you're an easy target at all, it took a bit of effort to get all this evidence against you.

Not sure exactly where I said attacking wendy's crappy play so please give me a direct quote. If we're going on about the opportunistic point then it's the very situation and the factors that were involved.

That being said I don't think what I'm doing at all is in anyway hypocritical, I also thought wendy was brilliant but that's not really the point since that's an opinion that's we'll have to agree to disagree on.

What part of "I had stopped closely following Xite" are we still missing?

So when did you stop paying attention to Xite? Many of my posts towards him were before wendy joined the game.

I was "tunneling" Xite at post #222 and ended my conversation at him with on post #311.

Wendy joined the game at post #288, so surely you would have seen me posting against Xite then? Since you weren't paying attention to Xite were you also not paying attention to the people who posted responses to Xite? Your FoS against wendy is at #329, this was before wendy exploded. It seems strange that you would have missed me "tunneling" Xite then when you used tunneling as a reason for why I'm scum, still strange that you didn't bring it up before then and brought up again but did not show the past situations as supporting evidence. If you think I'm scum why wouldn't you take the time to make a good case with supporting evidence?

You, for one, for what I feel is a pretty poor case, but I will have to take a look elsewhere, considering I'm repeating myself almost every time I reply to you, it becomes rather draining.

I think my case is pretty awesome, as is my supporting evidence. Alright you think I'm scum now (It's starting to look like pure OMGUS, right?) so why would you look the other way? Don't you want to find scum and get them lynched?

I'm saying that the things they did between point A and point H weren't closely followed, and not done so enough to get a solid read on them, ergo it would be scummy as all hell to be willing to lynch them SOLELY for their contributions leading up to point A.

Or are you somehow suggesting it would be great town play to only have half a case on someone and still lynch them for it? Because that is EXACTLY what you are suggesting I should have done at the moment.

You also neglected to say what the things they did at point A when you were at point H and at point H you said the things at point A didn't stick out to you.

The rest there's too many variables and it's situational to give you a good answer.

-------

lol majority of those were questions, lulz… if they were wrong why didn't you answer them and correct me? None of those are putting words in your mouth.

1. Question

2. Alright so what did you do then? I can't find any pro town reason a townie would't investigate the situation, what did happen then?

3. Sigh… did you or did you not forgot about your suspicions on Xite? If yes then can you see how anyone can think of you?

4. lol… that was never used against you, that was pointed out was pure speculation on a theory wendy could have thought up as as for why WENDY thought you were scum and questioned you, not I.

5. Question

6. Question

7. Are you denying that was an opportunistic situation for someone to make their vote? When I ask you further about the situation you just tell me you wanted to change your vote without any further reasons as to why about what other factors changed your choice.

8. That was what I understood from your post, is there a misunderstanding? Yes or no, if yes then why not tell me so we can drop it?

9. lol how this putting words in your mouth… you were angry about I mentioned a simple observation that wendy could have thought up as that leaded you to scum so I asked you to look from his perspective and give me some answers that doesn't. No, I'm not suggesting that if one of his flips town the other is scum, that's not the whole point of explaining wendy's actions lol… This might be hard for you to believe, but the wendy analysis was about wendy… not you or against you lol…

You want to know what putting words in your mouth is?

pretty much using hindsight to make his case on me in regards to saying how obv. town wendy is.

1. The case was never, never against you. I have no idea why you thought it was.

Go on, explain. When wendy was suspicious of me the ONLY things being pointed out was that I prevented an early gambit that... I had no idea about at all. So tell me, how is that scummy? Apparently it was my fault we didn't catch scum out with someone elses gambit, a gambit I felt was a joke... I'm sorry, but if that's the scrutiny that we're basing wendy's play on, I think it leaves a lot to be desired.

You wanted me to explain why WENDY was suspicious of you, we are also on the subject of wendy using scrutiny.

This is the definition of scrutiny

examination: the act of examining something closely (as for mistakes)

Part of showing you the reasons for why WENDY did things was to show HE WAS USING SCRUTINY. Are you telling me that looking at the early situation and asking questions about it was not scrutiny? I had posted this earlier before and you responded to it.

Do you honestly have no idea why Wendy was suspicious of you? Go back and read his posts, tell me if you still can't understand and I'll try to explain.

You wanted me to explain why WENDY was suspicious of you, and I did. Oddly enough you attacked me and got into some odd misunderstanding completely missing the point. Seriously how did you get confused and thought I was using this against you?

2. Never said wendy was obv town, please do not pull random adjectives.

So, we could add putting words into my mouth on the topic of how you're scummy but I'm willing to accept this as a misunderstanding, or do you still think I'm using my analysis of wendy against you when not only did I never say I was using it against you, I also said I wasn't using it against you.

[Lateralus22]

Holy crap I didn't realize how long this was until IAU pointed it out. Relax Prana we're almost finished with our one on one conversation.

The Dalt evidence case we are arguing about the moment the evidence is shown correct? If yes then we're done on this point since we can't move past arguing on a defition.

As for why I'm not pressuring everyone else it's because you're Prana. Seriously it's the way you did and and when you voted that stuck out as opportunistic to me, there were the others that I mentioned which played into that. Now no need to be deflective, I've read the other responses and felt I didn't need to respond to them. Now let me ask you why you didn't respond to what Leech said about you?

Right next on about getting wendy lynched. It's the time and place you did it and all the factors of the situation that come across as opportunistic, the others player who voted for wendy didn't come off as opportunistic to me.

Huh? Of course not, wendy was scummy as fuck. Otherwise you have 4 other people to get questioning as well.

I don't understand this. This would be a good reason for scum to convince town to lynch them.

Ah, so would it not stand to reason that it would be scummy to push a lynch of Xite so strongly knowing he was town? This is why I take issue with your case on me. It's saying one thing and doing another. You say I'm scummy for how I felt wendy was scum. Yet you felt Xite was scum and pushed that case. Does that mean you are scum too?

I think you're getting a bit off the point, even know I'm still confused as to why Xite did things, he's a sloppy town. We are now arguing on who is more scummy, wendy or Xite, and I doubt either of us can convince each other of our view. If this related to the opportunistic vote then it's the time and place you voted.

By case I simply mean what he posted. Once again, I do NOT store cases on players. I've said that three times at least now. I can hardly say it more clearly than I have done each time.

All you had to say was no this is a misunderstanding. I guess we are both dropping this now.

No, it's not looking like pure OMGUS, it's looking like "this guy's tunnelling like fuck, misrepping me, putting words in my mouth, and basically creating a case that isn't there", but why be honest about things when you can make up my thought process yourself?

And I'd like to ask you the same thing, don't you want to find scum and get them lynched?

Oh right sorry, we're tunnelling on me today, and everyone else can be ignored.

Right, disagree with mis reping and putting words in your mouth. Yes, the case is there, that's kinda how you responded to it,

Yes I want to find scum and get them lynched, you're the first one and yeah I should be looking for the second one. This thread needs more activity.

Sorry, but just because they were questions doesn't change what their intention was. If you wanted an honest answer you'd have worded them better than something which would give a straight yes/no response.

Yes, yes it does change. I am going to assume you know that when someone asks a question they want to know something.

All the question responses are still questions.

Regarding the dal situation we're arguing on when the evidence was brought up.

Now about the giving an analysis about wendy it's because you wanted me to, or in the very least told me to. If you want to treat it as fluff go ahead, I consider it to be on topic. And I wasn't making a big deal about it, you kept on going on about how useless wendy was.

About opportunistic vote it's the situation and the factors you play in, if you don't want to be very specific about what happened and give me all the details then we don't have much to talk about.

Last point sorry, you said you were going to give a list of putting words in your mouth and that's what I thought it was.

I'm giving an analysis because you told me to, yes we don't know whether they were correct in their suspicions, I never once stated wendy was correct in his suspicions as to who was scum. And no I'm not suggesting wendy's opinion is fact, I'm suggesting what he was thinking and what the reasons for his actions were because you couldn't understand.

No, you wanted to explain it, I merely said to "go on" you then posted it, and have since said it wasn't part of your case on me, thus admitting it was basically a big ball of fluff that you posted.

Right, saying Go on is telling me to post it.

I stated "Do I really have to explain" and "This is going to waste a bit of my time" which implies that I didn't want to do it.

And no, I don't believe wendy was being scrutinous (I think that's a word) with what he was doing, I think he was being a terrible player and most of what was being posted got us nowhere and fast. It would also appear at least 4 other players felt that he was being scummy as well.

Then we will agree to disagree. The last bit is Argumentum ad numerum.

Lat ISO #3
Votes Nexus putting him at 3 votes and the largest wagon. Considering his case on me suggests I was going after an "easy lynch" would it therefore be logical to conclude that he was doing the same by pushing someone he felt easy to lynch? If the answer is no then I expect him to back down from pursuing this point on my case because you can't have it both ways, either it's scummy to do it, which Lat did as well, or it's not scummy to do it.

Nope, situations are very different. Still think Nexus is weird but some of his answers I'm satisfied with. Also regarding Nexus one very important thing is that I'm trying to get information out of him rather than lynch him on the spot.

At this point you still haven't pointed out my flaws in the Dalt case that you have somehow brought up well after the fact to somehow beef up your case on me. Why is that? You're asking me why I didn't ISO Xite earlier (despite me stating I didn't have a chance), you have no reason to have not done that previously, so why do it now unless it's solely because you needed to try and make your case seem more solid than it actually was?

After day 1 was over I read the thread and noticed it, I didn't notice it before or I would have brought it up. Not sure what you're saying about the Xite Iso.

Also I look forward to what you come up with.

tl;dr points to make sure we're getting past a few points, I agree with you that this is going on too long.

dalt - disagreement on a definition
Xite & Wendy - We both have opposing views on how pro town they are, chances are we won't be able to make the other agree
looking over a case - turns out to be a misunderstanding, nothing more to add
opportunistic vote - disagree on the situation and factors that play in
wendy analysis - one big misunderstanding
words in your mouth - completely disagree with that

Last thing, we're almost done.

Looking at the game you divided into multiple sections, I'm not thinking of it solely as divided at all. Xite is the same person throughout the game, and the statements that you made were not specific as to the very situations, you're simply saying you got distracted.

Right, we should be done now.

[Lateralus22]

First off, I'm very disappointed in all you. I was hoping we would be able to get more pressure on Prana and get his partner to bus him but now he's gets to hide behind a oh the walls were long so I didn't read them disguise.

Second, this post is much shorter, it's a simply a few quotes that some of you may have missed which I think are important.

PS…the Lat Prana exchange was ridiculous. Never have I seen so much wall between two people. Could someone provide a synopsis since I lost focus about halfway through the second wall?

Spoiler: List of accusations

List of accusations

-Opportunistic voting
-Inconsistent views
-Lack of scum hunting
-Citing evidence against people when you don't read it
-Scum oversight

Spoiler: Citing evidence against people without reading it

First off you fitz will find this very interesting, this is citing evidence against people when you don't read it.

I'd be all for a Dalt lynch after that. I'm not one for an instant "Policy Lynch" as solely focusing on those will take us straight into brown trousers time. However I feel there's a huge difference between a general policy lynch of someone caught out lying, and someone who was using their lies to try and make town believe they were new and didn't really know how to play,

especially when there's evidence to prove otherwise.

It smells of trying to gain sympathy points and I don't like it.

This is not true. You made that post and cited that there was evidence against Dalt at post #143. Fitz posted his evidence against Dalt on post #99. How can you say "Oh there's evidence against Dalt" when you can't even be bothered to read it yourself. You saw fitz's post and figured that would get Dalt lynched, you didn't investigate further because that isn't required in your scum win condition.

Correct, I figured I didn't need to go check meta at that time (And I hate, with a passion, meta arguments anyway, people's gameplay can change between games and not just because they're town or scum. So meta arguments are null and void to me, the closest I'll come to "meta" would be "I've played with that guy a few times and know he's good at scum hunting").

It was only after it was proven that Dalt had been on here once before, and then had replaced out, that I began defending him.

But that's only if you "can be bothered to read it yourself" of course.

Spoiler: Opportunistic voting

Now let's go onto the opportunistic voting conversation, I think this point is very important.

1 - How? Show me my "opportunistic voting and lynching". I've not once been "opportunistic" in my voting, I voted wendy after only ONE vote had gone on him, one,

not 3 or 4 which would be opportunistic

, a single lone vote. I voted because I found wendy scummy. Done deal.

1. Take a look and see, and yes that vote was opportunistic. You are lying again. Your vote wasn't the second. It was the 4th. Post #355 Night / Xite are voting for Wendy. LmL then votes. Then you vote. YOU LIED.

How's about... when I said I was second on the wagon it was through not checking it and taking you saying LmL voted and then I did as stating I jumped on the wagon second. I wasn't about to go hunting to find out exactly what number on the wagon I was, and so I took what you said about it and used that. So no, not lying. What is it with you and effing lying?

Either way,

I don't really care where I was on the wagon

, all I care about is I was voting someone who was the scummiest player on day 1 in my eyes. Done deal.

In case you missed it before I never said Prana was second on the wagon, he misunderstand me on that. that being said, the bold points are very interesting.

Spoiler: Inconsistent views

Now about inconsistent views,

"the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy

that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is" post (#68)

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch. (#48)

That should be the major stuff.

[Lateralus22]

Edit: The quote not in the spoiler is by havingfitz not PranaDevil.

[Lateralus22]

And who said this exactly? I don't recall seeing anyone make that claim.

Also, "citing evidence without reading it" is complete BS. In fact the following could have been written by me (of course this is as I was reading to catch up when I replaced in, but even if I was in the game at the time I highly doubt it would have changed anything):

Nexus is a good example of what the heck is going on. Of course he didn't exactly state he's hiding under a disguise nor do I think this is exactly scummy of him, but now seeing how more than he are like wtf are Lat and Prana arguing about scum can hide under that disguise.

I also don't know what to make of the Lat/Prana exchange. I'll give it a reread later and see if it actually makes any sense, or if they're just arguing over and over about nothing.

eh this reply kinda comes off as fit saying he didn't read the whole debate, if this is true or not please tell me. simply trying to support the what is lat is prana arguing about theory

PS…the Lat Prana exchange was ridiculous. Never have I seen so much wall between two people. Could someone provide a synopsis since I lost focus about halfway through the second wall?

I don't think the claim is bs at all. Of course I completely disagree with Prana's def of when the evidence is out so I guess we're here now.

Prana

Regarding your replies to every point, while you think my accusations are crap I think your defense is.

It annoys me that what I accuse you being scummy you reply with an explanation that gives you off as anti town. Mainly the "Oh I didn't read the thread"

Two examples of this

Now read carefully here, I DID NOT read it because I DID NOT THINK IT WAS NEEDED.

Yes, hopping 3rd or 4th on a wagon would be scummy, but that also only works if you did it KNOWINGLY.

Lets all not read and know the vote counts cuz thats how cool we are. I mentioned the 3/4 vote thing because you said a vote at 3/4 vote would be opportunistic. When I ask you about the situation to determine better if it's opportunistic or not you say you don't remember.

that being said the whole oh no that iz misrep I completely disagree and think that I've represented you perfectly fine. It's almost as if you expect scum to confess about scummy things they did right when it's pointed out. (NO THIS IS NOT A MISREP THIS IS THE IMPRESSION I GET FROM READING YOUR POSTS LOL)

now that we are all qq lats so mean and tunneling is there any random member of the thread you like me to investigate even if I don't think they're scum?

I'll look at your llama case a bit more closely later on.

Oh in the my opportunistic voting spoiler the second quote is mine not Prana's, but I don't think anyone should have a problem with that.

[Lateralus22]

That quote from Prana is talking about the link fitz posted to show that dalt had "played" here before. That is not part of this thread and is in no way an example showing that he did not read this one.

Alright, it isn't part of the thread I can accept. However it is part of the game, if you don't even click the link and yet you still comment on that I see that as contradicting. If you don't like meta fine, don't participate, if you want to comment actually know what you're commenting on.

The second quote I gave is valid, and more worrying.

Regarding Prana's case on LlamaFluff, frankly it sucks. When I first glanced over it I was happy because Llama was one of the few people I suspected to be linked towards Prana but the case itself just doesn't look like a bus to me. A lot of those points were already explained or are literally misunderstood by Prana. Llama explained himself well.

The point about the voting mechanics is a misunderstanding. I do think that Llama trying to put a no lynch by un voting is worrying, I believe you thought Xite was scum at that point correct?

Now on LmL your point against Llama on speculating a night kill is a complete contradiction as you've done so yourself, your point is complete WIFOM as you yourself have stated.

Although, Lateralus does seem really angry that Prana's defending himself, which I don't even know why hes getting so annoyed. Surely Prana defending himself is a good thing, would you rather, if he was town, he rolled over and let you lynch him?

Brilliant logic Nexus. Prana defended himself so he must be town. How do you do it? Now let's look a little deeper at the situation or better yet actually read my posts when I spoke about this directly, this post happens to be right above yours, did you know that?

It annoys me that what I accuse you being scummy you reply with an explanation that gives you off as anti town. Mainly the "Oh I didn't read the thread"

Prana I really don't want to bring this up again but I think I should. Please just confirm this, the majority of your defense is,

1. Got distracted
2. Forgot about Xite's earlier scumminess
3. Refuses to use meta
4. Did not read vote count

Is this right?

Also Llama earlier you had told me you liked my points against Prana, which points were they and what did you think of Prana's defense?

[Lateralus22]

Sigh Prana…

These aren't accusations… I'm trying to clarify if I understand your defense correctly…

Point #2 I don't understand how you're saying this now, can you give me the exact posts in which you defended yourself? The impression of that I got with related to being distracted and thus when you were questioned about the Xite read you didn't say you knew much about him. If you didn't forgot I don't understand why you wouldn't say them when I asked you on day 1.

Now #3 is asked because you're using that as an excuse for not investigating dalt more.

I'm done with tunneling you, that's kinda why I responded to a few other people. That being said I still think your scum so I still want you lynched.

[Lateralus22]

Lateralus blames Prana for the walls of text meaning we ignored him, but I'd say he is as at fault, but eh.

Are you trying to be stupid or just out words in my mouth? I can't remember saying that and it was partly my fault for the walls of text, I should have made my case in a better way.

Note about Llama, I don't know how you can mention he was the one who didn't "really" mention it when he was the one who brought it up.

As for your IIoA comments...where does it say you can't consider individual posts as IIoA? That you have to take into account the bulk of a players posts to accuse them of IIoA? Even you call the 1st post I quoted for you IIoA. You go by your definition and I'll go by mine. As for the last comment on IIoA...I considered your "I think probably XT > TC > TT >>> XC > XX. " comment to be IIoA. Upon a closer read I see what you were saying but it wasn't clear IMO at first read. More I than A.

I don't know guys but is this a possible slip? That bit you copied is clear and pretty much pure analysis

The examination and evaluation of the relevant information to select the best course of action from among various alternatives.

Since you're saying it's information could that be a possible slip you're saying it's true?

@ Prana

That's the thing, when I asked you I asked you about her play as a whole. The way you responded sounded like you didn't know anything her play as a whole (This is day 1)

Right it's clear we won't agree so do we just agree to disagree on whatever we want at this point in the game?

Some things I like and don't like about Leech vs Llama

I do like the points about Llama's earlier hesitation looking at this again, Leech after wendy first exploded how was Llama's attitude towards no lynch?

I don't think though that Llama's taking over Wendy's spot and using his arguments.

I don't like Llama voting no lynch now, it looks like he got pressured into doing so.

looking at IAU's case I think this increases the chance of LmL being scum.

Nexus why did you say "Damn it?"

Now Prana again, do you think there could be a Llama + Lee scum team? Just wondering why you're telling Nexus to not put someone at L 1 when he already did so.

FoS havingfitz

Really wondering about the IIoA stuff there.

[Lateralus22]

Perphaps, Damn it is a sign of anger Nexus. why were you angry?

Deadline is September 6th, did you want to deprieve town a few days to discuss? You said so after IAU presented a case on LmL, does this change your opinion on Llama. Is Llama obv scum that you want to lynch him now? How about LmL, do you think those accusation are valid? Do you think LmL is scum? Are you his buddy?

[Lateralus22]

I see thank you for explaining Nexus.

[Lateralus22]

@Lat….what is a slip? I stated after reading his formula closer it was clearer...but I still felt it was more I than A. And is that a quote or are you providing a definition for 'analysis?'

And........ "Since you're saying it's information could that be a possible slip you're saying it's true?," what?
Also...why would you say the deadline is the 6th when it's really the 8th? That kind of misinformation could lead to a quick vote by those not willing to check first.

You said it was information, or mostly information. The bit you quoted is pure analysis.

I think of information to be like data, something along the line of what the vote count is. Something true, since you had not called it misinformation or pointed out flaws in the information I figured you believed it to be true.

Considering that if you saying the information is true that means that you know who the two scum are and what wagon position they were on.

Though I asked first because I was wondering if you just had a horribly misguided definition of what an analysis/IIoA was. I'm leaning more on the misguided bit so… that's that.

The quote was the definition of analysis.

Does this post make sense to you?

About the deadline that was a type so Sorry about that I guess.

September 8th is the right date.

[Lateralus22]

Edit: typo

[Lateralus22]

With the deadline in 4 days I'd like everyone to name their top two candidates for the lynch.

1. PranaDevil
2. Loud Mouth Lee

Scotty's awesome, let's get this moving.

[Lateralus22]

Meant Sotty, also Llama will you please share your opinion on the scum team probablities in more detail for us please?

Here's some data on Prana

Spoiler: Vote Data

User voted/FoS (Reason if there) Iso #
People on wagon before, left is the oldest while right is the newest. Prana would be last.

Day 1

Nexus RVS 0

PranaDevil

LML RVS 1

Nexus / PranaDevil

FoS Saga (dunno, not very serious though) 4

PranaDevil

unvote 6

confidanon 9

IAU / FoS LmL / PranaDevil

Korashk 23

Dalt / Confidanon / PranaDevil

Ca 28

IAU / PranaDevil

FoS Wendy 37

Saga / Xite / PranaDevil

Wendy 45

Saga / Xite / LmL / PranaDevil

------

Day 2

Lat (OMGUS) 75

PranaDevil

Llama 81

Leech / PranaDevil

Sotty, I think I know why Prana didn't put his vote on fitz. No one else had their vote on fitz at that time.

These posts times are the vote counts, no one had left their vote on fitz at this time. I don't understand if Prana thought fit was scummy why didn't he vote him?

#229 - #257 - #279

Leech, Confidanon, LmL, tomorrow Wendy are the only ones I can see who have voted for fitz by looking at Battsousai in Iso.

Fitz, you NEED to look at Lat vs Prana, if you can't read the whole thing at least look at #697, #700, #706, #746, #747, #750, #766. This won't take you very long, maybe 20 minutes of reading. Then please comment on both players.

[Lateralus22]

Also, deadline is just 4 days away

, so we need to make a decision, as it stands it's increasingly looking like the options are Wendy or Xite at the moment. Personally I'd rather Wendy (and it appears 3 others do too), however

I'd be happy with a Xite lynch too at this stage

. Either way we need to start making our decisions soon.

You weren't following Xite for half of the day?

I'll resond to the other stuff too, when I feel like it.

[Lateralus22]

So I looked over Nexus, there wasn't really much there.

Iso #63 is him saying he'll look over Lat/Prana to see if he can understand what the two of them were arguing about.

Now this is suspect, because any of his comments about this have been really stupid. It's suspect because he doesn't actually go into detail about the debate. He doesn't agree or disagree on any points, he doesn't even point exactly which points are pure rubbish. It's all kinda, lol two people arguing so they're both town. So yeah, kinda hoping he'll go into more detail now.

Iso #64 Some stuff scattered around. This post is better except he still horribly misunderstands what Llama was doing.

You're bringing up ca then changing to Xite, why wouldn't he change his vote to the person he though was scum? why would he leave it there when it wouldn't do anything? I'd like to give a bit more details on your Llama suspicion. Point out exactly which points you believe are signs of him being scum.

Now you kinda do support a LmL lynch, so what do you like about IAU's case? I don't think you told us that. Transparency is good Nexus.

Now Nightwolf, not much but somewhat odd

First when I posted my Prana case he said he would add his own points along. That's cool, later on he says he thinks most points he added have been said. That's cool too.

What isn't cool is I have no idea what those points are. What were you going to post? Does it outweigh Prana's defense. What points did you like on each side? Really just let us know the details of what you do like and what you don't and if they outweigh the other.

Transparency is good so let us know what exactly you're talking about.

And Lat, reason for not voting Fitz? My vote was elsewhere at the time. Strangely enough my vote cannot be in two places at once. Are you suggesting it's scummy to have suspicion on two players at once now?

Korashk left before #229

Vote on Korashk was a pressure vote
Vote on Ca was because he wasn't paying attention to the thread (this was a misudnerstanding)

Are those reasons stronger than your suspicions on fitz? You're missing the point, it's not about how many people you're suspicious of, it's about voting the people who you have weaker reasons to vote, most likely because you don't have the support from others which is why when you have a stronger reason to vote fitz you didn't when there was no on on the wagon.

Also I'd like you to tell me the exact reasons you were ok with an Xite lynch at one point. I'd like a response to the post I just posted up there.

[Lateralus22]

Lateralus22 - Prana / LmL
Nexus - LlamaFluff / LmL
havingfitz - Nexus / LmL / LlamaFluff
PranaDevil - LlamaFluff / LmL
Leech - LlamaFluff / Prana
LlamaFluff - No lynch / LmL / Prana
Sotty - Prana / Fitz

Prana - 4
LmL - 5
LlamaFluff - 4
No lynch - 1
havingfitz - 1
Nexus - 1

Hey Prana thanks for ignoring posts 786/787 do you feel like commenting?

Hey Nexus thanks for ignoring post 787.

[Lateralus22]

Nexus

#0 Vote LmL RVS

#2 FoS ConfidAnon

#3 Attack, states he believes there's a scum tell but doesn't vote CA.

Suspect since he already FoS'ed but after his attack he didn't come in with a vote.

#10 Said that both LmL and Prana were defensive.

Odd since he doesn't bring up Prana's defensive behavior now.

#15 Defensive against LmLs accusation. He doesn't actually try to defend against any of them, he just says you're tunneling me lol

#23 Clear scum motivation, states he didn't do certain actions because he believed he would be seen as scum

#38 Interesting, it's odd because this very observation can be suspect.

wendy randomly calling a scum team of xite and fitz was odd, because the two of them haven't really had many interactions. I haven't had much interaction with Prana, or you, Wendy, does that make us scum teams too?

I've got to wonder, why Nexus? I thought you would have had the most interaction with Prana considering he brought mafia over to a forum you go to. Doesn't this mean he is someone you're familiar with and you might value his opinion?

I could understand if it was a hammer, as a townie, but it wasn't even a hammer. Pro-town wouldn't vote for themselves, pro town will defend themselves to the death, rather than give up.

This is an interesting quote. So it's better for townies to lynch themselves instead of only voting? Suspect

I'm going to learn from my last mistake, and unvote because currently llamafluff is third on my list. I'm not going to vote wendy yet because I want her to explain herself, and if someone decides to hammer before she gets a chance, I'll feel quite bad. Even if she flips scum.

Interesting as I don't see him mentioning why Llama was third on his list in this post. The wording for wendy was interesting too. It says "Even if you flip scum", which implies there's a higher chance of wendy being town.

#44

Prana: I don't like that he went through a phase of not contributing anything unless poked. However, I haven't seen anything really scummy from him.

Interesting. I don't know why you wouldn't pursue this further, or considering what's happening today I expect you'd actually explain something about your town read on Prana instead of just lol two people arguing equals town.

If you didn't like this why didn't you ask him questions to get him to contribute?

#58

As town, he was doing a great job at distracting us from the scum, so why would the scum get rid of him unless he had actually got close to the truth?

This points are put together in a odd way. Who was wendy distracting us from? Instead of just sitting there, since you thought tw was getting close to the truth why didn't you investigate any of his suspects?

#72 Not sure how putting Llama at L-1 will mean no more info could be found. I see this as over cautious scum attempting to try and look pro town.

Now you switch back to Llama, will you please summarize why you think he's scum?

Just want to note that Nexus has done little to move the game forward, mostly today. Nexus is a little scummy but not very much.

Fitz, will you read Lat/Prana or not? What do you think about Scotty's attack against Prana, is there any points you like or don't like?

Adding on to Sotty's question, I want you to tell me your read on IAU. Please give an in depth analysis.

[Lateralus22]

@Lateralus: Why would I interact with Prana just because he brought me over to MS? You can read the thread again, I haven't spoken to him unless necessary. I was always under the impression it was against the rules to discuss the game outside of the thread, and as I have no means of doing so with him, I haven't had much interaction with him in the thread.

fail.

It's human nature to talk to someone you're confortable/familar with. That aside can you at least pay attention to the vote count? That point isn't too strong… though I do find it worrying that Nexus knowing this didn't try to interact with Prana or question him. Less interactions means less information for the town, I can see scum trying to avoid each other in order to survive the game.

Why are you even meaning outside the thread? I'm clearly talking about ingame.

@Night

On one I think Sotty explained it well. It's either lackadaisical scum hunting or lazy scum opportunistic strategy.

On two I want to place more emphasis on LmL triggering Prana's vote as the key to the opportunistism point.

On four I posted it because Prana wanted me to, it isn't being used against Prana. It's fine if he doesn't think wendy was town but I do think my interpretation is a little more valid than wendy's scum lolz considering his flip.

I think the points you mentioned in my adv are stronger than those that Prana has.

Thank you for going onto the details of the event, Sotty and you are the only ones who did that while others ignored it or simply said they liked or didn't like it I think.

Now on to Prana and Nexus.

An example of scum distancing here

Much as I think you seem to be a stand up bloke, in this game you're beginning to small a bit of scum. You're using phrases like Tunnelling when at this stage I honestly don't think anyone has. Xite has, indeed, focused on you a fair bit, but he's looking elsewhere too. So that's not tunelling, and that would be the absolute closest player you could even attempt it on as he's been pointing out stuff you've said for a while. Then you've used OMGUS, which doesn't really work if the person has a reason for voting you beyond "He voted me!".

Now here's an example of coaching,

However to answer your question (even though it's shown my comment wasn't really needed now) is that Nexus had proceeded to unvote afterwards Lat, consider it more me giving him advice than just attacking him or anything.

I suggest everyone to read Prana's Iso for day 1. Try and see how many original thoughts he brings, I have the data for his votes in a different post of mine. You'll mostly find a few weak points, but other than that he pretty much agrees with others and votes when other people are.

I want to vote Nexus, but I'm torn at my decision. LmL is a case of messing up on day two while Nexus has done scummy things scattered across.

LmL at worst is lazy scum making a shit case on Llama and at best he's a hypocrite.

Nexus at worst is scum with Prana, most of his large contributions are actually rather unhelpful considering I don't remember any of them moving the game forward too much. There's also clear scum motivation for things.

At best he's just a shit town, who doesn't do to much and is playing to survive I think.

lol just noticed Nexus still hasn't given any details on certain points on the Lat and Prana event.

Note, I saw Prana reading the section here. Why didn't he post, change his vote? Something. If you have that much time to defend yourself you should be looking for scum.

I'll do some reading on both of them and give the final vote. I really want to vote for Nexus, but I'm concerned about LmL and the case IAU supplied along with his lurking right now.

[Lateralus22]

Right, actually I don't think my vote's going to be the hammer as I expect a few people to unvote or vote how they want.

Vote: Nexus

I see the things against him as a better reason to lynch.

At best nexus is a shit town, at worst he's Prana's scum partner. He's done very little to actually move the game forward.

LmL at best is a hypocrite, at worst he's lazy scum making a shit case.

LmL's more of someone who messed up day 2 while Nexus has scummy things scattered throughout. I think the recent events and the case against Nexus makes him a better lynch since Prana most likely isn't getting lynched today.

Gut along with the points against Nexus for the day leads to my vote against him. I like the cases against Nexus better than the LmL one but the problem is he's lurking.

Night, both Prana AND Nexus implied connections with eachother in their first post of this game. Iso #14 for Prana is when he outright states it. Looking over his reasoning for not calling out stuff on Nexus seems weird because when he does think Nexus is scummy he doesn't vote for Nexus.

So let's get this done now.

[Lateralus22]

Gota respond to something up above, last part was a response to Night's question just so you know now.

lama has about 20-30 minutes left before I move back to Nexus. If Lat chooses to vote Nexus instead of LmL, then I will be moving back to Nexus either way, since there was no previous indication of him supporting a Nexus lynch over an LmL one.

Was this directed at me because...

I want to vote Nexus, but I'm torn at my decision

Why exactly did you unvote but then voted again? why was my vote part of your choice? I'm a little confused.

[Lateralus22]

Nexus, LmL just leaving without saying anything is shit, it's implied in several of his posts about how he doesn't have much time to post.

Leech I don't think if Nexus flips town that clears LmL. Also I've been looking over Prana / Nexus a bit and I'm a little confused. I'm starting to wonder if Prana buddeyed up with him to get a lynch against him with guilt of association. Though considering Nexus's game so far I don't think that's the case. Though if he do flips town I wouldn't say it clears Prana considering it's still odd.

Earlier post of mine the quote's Night's, also Night thanks for explaining I think I understand.

[Lateralus22]

First quote of a misquoted post of mine is Nightwolf's btw, also fitz what do you think of Llama now?

Looking at town tells for Nexus I wouldn't say your second post is one considering he hasn't posted.

Is the day over?

[Lateralus22]

Lol

I can hammer whenever anyone needs to now.

[Lateralus22]

How much discussion should there be here today? I think I've got a few important things to ask for today.

[Lateralus22]

Vote: No lynch

That's L - 1

I guess we wait for Leech to post and let fitz probably hammer when he comes back.

[Lateralus22]

ughhhhhhh

[Lateralus22]

Vote: No lynch

Let fitz hammer.

[Lateralus22]

Can we just lynch Prana already? If we're going to go for a draw let's just wait till the very end if we have to.

[Lateralus22]

Mhm, looked over this a bit more and I kinda changed my mind, do whatever you want guys. I'm actually ok with risking a draw now, but I'd rather we lynch obv scum now. Btw Prana that post doesn't make you town in any way at all, I can even see some scum motivation behind it but it gets a little wifomy.

[Lateralus22]

Why didn't you answer Scotty's question?

"Explain to me why we shouldn't force the scum to kill?"

[Lateralus22]

Why didn't you protest to the 2nd no lynch?

[Lateralus22]

Mode: If town does a no lynch today then does that mean if scum does a no kill afterwards will they be breaking rule 2?

2) Play to win, but also to have fun. See rule 1.

If scum's win condition is to eliminate all townies then forcing a draw is breaking the rules isn't it?

So, I still rather we lynch Prana today since he's scum but a no lynch isn't that bad. By the way would anyone else be opposed to having a no lynch tommorow or the day after instead? I feel like the day's stalling and with a flip on Prana we can move forward a lot in this game.

[Lateralus22]

"rule

Btw what do you think of no lynching right now?

Prana, do you think you should end up in Lylo?

On the assumption you are town these are reasons why you shouldn't

-Does not read vote counts
-Posts fluff
-Does not investigate evidence presented
-Lack of scum hunting / Lack of original thinking

I already have looked at all the possibilities, and even if you are town I can't think of any reason why we should let you live.

[Lateralus22]

Town can only benefit from your lynch right now, I'm not sure where you think I said it would hurt if the mis lynch was on you. Besides who is scum now, who exactly should I be looking at? I have looked at every player and you are the scummiest one here. Should I not take away the most scummy player from the equation? Also your case against Llama was bad, it was either you repeating something that was already said or it was just some stupid point that you didn't understand.

Lack of original thinking is more referring to your actual vote choices, besides a third no lynch isn't stupid. Lack of original thinking is more so on you kinda just following along what other people say when they vote. Just wondering but since you think I'm obvious town why would town lynch me? I'm not even sure how my Day 1 makes me obvious town.

Regardless there is one fact.

Scotty/Nightwolf/Leech/Llama have all either suggested they thought you were scum and voted you or they said my case against you was good. If you get into the last three players and you are town I'd say there's a good chance you'll end up getting lynched then if two of those players make it to the last three too, so it is better to see your flip now.

[Lateralus22]

Vote: No Lynch

[Lateralus22]

Well that sucks, sorry about the WoT's.

[Lateralus22]

What'd I need to change in my case to give it a more town vibe? If figured honesty was the best thing.

[Lateralus22]

Holy fuck Leech, INGOC THEORY WORKS!!!!!

[Lateralus22]

Clarification: Prana was the first poster in the thread, there should be stats on this kinda of stuff.