Mini 1026 - Ohne Mafia (Game Over!)

[boberz]

confirm.

All answer please (My answers will follow)...

What is everyone's opinions on lurkers?
Have you heard of Andy Burnham?
How do you plan to find scum?
How would you describe your playing style?
How much mafia have you played?

[boberz]

What? That has to be one of the most obvious questions in the world. Classic random question to kick things off. Atleast explain what I have actually done wrong.

Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum. But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it. So try again moose.

Meanwhile, please answer the questiond.

[boberz]

FoS:

Boberz for checking the forum and not posting

If you think that is scummy I am afraid you may be voting me very hastily. Why is that scummy?

Also why did you random vote when there was already a serious vote on the table and there were atleast three others taking the game seriously already?

Cheers for answering the questions though.

---

[boberz]

Care to explain?

[boberz]

vote: boberz

As far as I'm concerned, this dandelion here is already obvscum.

The care to explain was aimed at this btw.

If this was just random I would like you to explain why you thought this necessary.

[boberz]

Erm, we should all be avoiding what other people think is scummy first of all. But the idea was to put emphasis in everybody's mind on scumhunting, too many day 1s are random votes followed by two wagons one of which ends up in a mislynch. Crap. So I was doing something different, ie get everyone to think about how they scumhunt. I am not going into what I read into the various responses before everyone has done it, neither am I providing my answers until others have because of the risk of scum just trying to latch on to what I am looking for.

Note, the only person to actually explain what was scummy about that question is me. NB just rewrote what I said about it. This is a massive fallacy I expect everyone to understand. Everybody should be trying to look town, and town should be looking for scum.

---

@Tasky, my original draft had semi-serious written on it, which I ammended. But Moose's vote looks atleast semi-serious if not serious. But the rest of my point stands Tasky (and anyone else who has random voted, or intends to) why? Stuff was there to comment on, my (alledged) rogue question for example. Why random vote? No reason whatsoever, just delaying discussion.

[boberz]

@Boberz- your response is good.

Thank you. You said you were going to ask people questions to see who is scummy, what is your first question and who to?

[boberz]

Nerves scummy why??? But I am not particularly nervous more frustrated. I give you credit for actually making a case though.

Why are you not answering the questions?

Do you have a better way to start the game?

[boberz]

Why do you dislike RQS?

What about it seems panicy?

Tbh it looks like RQS is failing but I intend to battle on anyway. It is certainly better than RVS.

What interests me is that atleast two people have turned up to say they dont like RQS, offer no alternative and make a criticism of me

coincidentally

the person who instigated the RQS they dislike. It is just getting stupid really.

It seems very pat that Nb, Hresz and foilist all thought I felt scummy for the same reason based on me sounding/feeling nervous/panicy. It is not something that can be proved but something that can easily be accepted as a conventional wisdom within the game. So purely on a bandwagon analysis I expect one to be scum, the later on the wagon the more scummy in this instance.

I am still interested how panicy/nervous is actually a scum tell. I would expect any mafia player to be a bit nervous if attacked by so many people in the first couple of pages. But I

did

do not feel particularly nervous now more intrigued with what is going on.

---

Still waiting on an answer re the random votes!

---
Just seen a load more posts. NB, second time you have changed your mind on me already, not looking good for you.

Full response to the crosspost accusation in a sec.

[boberz]

Ok archebob my response to your lengthy attack, but first I would like to request exactly why the defensiveness everyone seems to have seen in me is scummy. Wander into any day1 there is a mislynched townie who overreacted/got nervous. it is not a scumtell. but I honestly didnt feel nervous/particularly pressured so the response for this situation follows:

1/ Voting under a short quote in the manner of moose indicated to me an 'it is so obvious!' mentality. So the shortness of the vote and lack of explanation actually makes it more aggressive than if it had been a lengthy accusation such as the one you present. Therefore my reaction was somewhat more justified than you would have everyone believe, although very strong (perhaps excessively so) I accept.

Jitteriness indicative of scum is just simply wrong.

2/ My tone of desperation was non existent. It is very bad day 1 play to assume that your attacker may have a scum mindset. It is always wiser imo to examine your own play first.

Here I presume the attack (because there was no case presented) and defend it. A real scumtell /sarcasm. Alibi or just true reasoning???

The 'so try again moose' was merely trying to provoke a proper case. Create movement early in day1.

3/ My defence is WIFOM, but it was wifom to try and emphasise how the presumed attack line was going down the road of wifom. I was by no means trynig to say that scum could never say it, merely presenting the 'scum wouldnt say it because...' half of the wifom as opposed to the 'boberz must be scum because...' half (which I had outlined in the unbolded part of your quote). So it was merely discrediting the attack rather than suggesting it was evidence to my defence.

Asking players how they intend to scumhunt discourages them from random voting, or joking about and makes them actually do it. Making town look town is as important as finding scum looking scummy. I appreciate that I am obviously not leading by example but it is still true.

It does not help scum because they can all read the wiki/read the attacks as they come, they get the info anyway. Town are the people who do not use scumhunting effectively. It is not merely to remind people how to hunt scum, but actually focussing their mind on doing it. Also something to test scum by, in RQS they too have to answer the questions.

---

On a seperate note, atleast we avoided RVS

But seriously it is always my aim as both allignments to create loads of info at the start of the game, by attacking the most active players on pretty much nothing, by finding someone scummy and not letting it drop even when they have defended adequately. I appreciate self meta is not to be trusted, so go look for yourself. search boberz pick any game you want where I was in from the beginning and I will have created stuff like this, but I would argue that in many instances it has been helpful in the long term.

Speaking of how it is helpful to find scum VOTE: Nichol Bolas the accusation archaebob made was similar to yours I defended it adequately, suddenly it has you convinced you to be on an already large bandwagon.

---

Sorry for not getting this out last night but my Wifi turns off at 11 because the router is next to Dad's head when he sleeps and he thinks it is bad for him (believe it or not). I have seen another 2 pages, so I am going to post about it now. I am not claiming this early, and anyone who hammers without even looking at another player is poor.

[boberz]

Go read furs meta before anyone thinks it is him based on this.

[boberz]

NB - You did flip flop, everyone saw it. Meanwhile I am interested in your attitude trying to keep everyone on board. You vote, because abob told you to. You said you wanted to hear my response presumably to keep me happy. You did the same the first time you questioned me as well. Take a stance!
So am I right in saying that in your eyes the question was not scummy.


Femm - The questions are not helpful to scum (covered in previous post). If you have a secret scumhunting tactic that scum dont already know then just keep it a secret, we wouldnt know. But for the most part it did not help scum.
And I said I would answer them after everyone who was going to answer answered. That wasnt true at this point but might be now (I will have to check)
The last two questions are not helpful to scum what a ludicrous suggestion. If you are prepared to answer 3, then why not answer 4 and 5.

Town do panic in that situation. Go into any day 1 it is full of 'nervous' town alligned players mislynched. Moast fallicious tell ever. But I still do not think I was any more nervous than an average player in the situation.


Moose - http://www.wikilaw3k.org/forum/Law-Enfo ... 317847.htm look at the amount of yes answers. Most fallacious tell ever.

[boberz]

I was suggesting that the tell is a bit of a fallacy (I think that is how you spell it btw I am not great at spelling) so I meant that it is a bit of a misconception, an idea that has fallen into popular usage without it being correct.

---

Town metas, where I was in from the beginning.

Newbie871

Newbie928

Mafia in Mendo

Scum Meta

Newbie933

---

I replace into most of my games so I can get straight into a game rather than have stupid day 1s. But this has been a good one so far, so I dont mind.

[boberz]

Andy Burnham was so appropriate. Haha, he is a British politician who is trying ot become Labour leader, one of his supporters was sitting behind me at the time and I said that nobody outside our circles would have heard of him, and guess what nobody had

I am logged in now, so my answers to my own questions will follow.

[boberz]

confirm.

All answer please (My answers will follow)...

What is everyone's opinions on lurkers?

I dont know about everyone, but whilst I hate lurkers my view has softened recently I have begun to thought that so long as lurkers are adequately thought about it is sometimes best to chase those who are contributing more, I used to have anatural bias much firther against lurkers.

The reason for this question was I imagined (and have seen before) to get a load of people say they dont like lurkers find it scummy etc, then when they lurk we can call them out on it. Encourages good play and gives us a sharper stick to hit scum with.

Have you heard of Andy Burnham?

Of course I have, I wouldnt have asked the question otherwise. A politician in Britain but I did not really expect anyone to know him

The reason for this question was firstly to prove my mate wrong, but secondly put people a bit at ease (a trick I learned when I first saw RQS, making them think the questions were a bit more icebreakery

How do you plan to find scum?

Pressure Pressure Pressure, bandwagons, random scrutiny, lot's of accusations hard playing. Later in the game I like bandwagon/vote pattern examination. I am not big on gut feeling, it is wrong more than it is right.

The contravercial question!!! The reason for this has already been dissected at length. But it imo does serve as a net positive. It gives us something to hold scum to (if they dont do what they say they will we can find them, this is a lot harder for them to live up to in later days.) But it also encourages good play from town. Not only reminding them how to play as I was patronisingly misrepped as saying, but actually foccussing their mind to doing it rather than random votes, random bandwagonning from random votes (not bandwagonning the way I like it.)

How would you describe your playing style?

Unusual, I like doing new things and thinking about new tells. I have a few up my sleeve, some of which can be found in my previous games but others I do not plan to share atm. I do not like 'stock tells' because more often than not they are absolute cobblers. I like ether's list of tells which is hanging around the archives somewhere.

Interesting to see how people view their own meta if you end up looking at their meta. It also helps us understand playersmore, if they are 'survivalist' in nature or if they are naturally lurky in the first day etc etc. Stops people falling in to traps.

How much mafia have you played?

Including replacement games that don't always last long, I have done about 10, all on this site. Thousands of f2f games. I am also with a friend trying to work out a skype mafia thing, but it is quite hard to work out the best way to do it.

The point of this question is pretty self explanatory. The amount of mafia you have played deeply effects what you think, do and say. Also a rough guide as to ability

[boberz]

And tbh I did not pick up from much from the answers, the reason being because the first couple of answers so greatly affected so many of the other answers, to a point where many did not want to contribute some of whom may have done otherwise. Also because the questions were criticised so heavilly tany reads that emerge would have shaky foundations so maybe some inconsistency will occur later but currently we have a few people who dont like lurking. A few others who have played mafia a fair bit before. And a lot who dont know who andy burnham is. Epic Fail of RQS!

[boberz]

boberz, your WIFOM defense is retarded. "Town sometimes does this, it can't possibly be a tell!" Is a completely false argument. Not to mention you went from "I'm not being defensive" to "Guys, my defensiveness is a nulltell"
You also laid down a scummy vote, but I'm willing to let that half slide

I sense your wires are crossed, unless you are making new accusations and my wires are crossed. either way:

The 'town do this a lot' is as much wifom as saying 'scum do this sometimes' which is what was being said. The defence was only as wifomy as the attack (that small part of the attack). The idea of nerves and defensiveness is not a scumtell, somebody actually explain, or give evidence or stats as to why it is. Please do not just accept it as truth because it is not. The most extreme example to prove me wrong (drugs and the police) on this matter was rebutted with a load of people saying they do get nervous in such a situation.

The second half of your accusation is more what I was expecting, unfortuantly I was going a bit theory trigger happy on it. I was not, and have always maintained that I was not nervous (beyond the extent that most would be). As for defensive I fully accept I was defensive and will not apologise for it if defensiveness is now scummy I may just go and jump out of my window or something. However I did at length discuss whether nerves makes somebody scummy, concluding it doesnt. I did not mean this to encompass me particularly (other than for the small amount of pressure i was feeling at the time, I maintain no more than to be expected).

Why was my vote scummy, he massively flip flopped. Please dont tell me it was OMGUS, because he hadnt even presented a case (also scummy btw NB)

[boberz]

Fur, I also lpay a different game from what people expect, so long as you can justify it I dont care. The point is you cannot, and have not been able to in other games, hence you become a mislynched townie.

I am aware Fur has suggested a massroleclaim, among a few other cringeworthy things. But he has form, search for completed games and have a look. Too early for this him.

Fur, do you really think reading a game and not posting is a scumtell, when I had already posted in it several times??? Surely not.

---

@NB Femm and I cross posted with the flip flopping thing, so you need to remove that from your FEMM case. In fact the whole case seems to be links from him to others, I dont like links between people untill you know what the other person is. Also I regularly vote not to lynch, I think most people do; votes are for bandwagons pressure not ust lynches.

---

Your delay on is why its scummy. You mentioned it before, but instead of voting then, you waited. Putting it down for that reason now is deflecting attention off of yourself.
Town should not have any reason to be nervous, they have nothing to hide.

I can tell we are going to disagree on a lot. Deflecting attention is not scummy either. And that was part (only part) of the vote. I was also able to analyse whether ther may be scope for a bandwagon which I decided there may have been, and whether NB had adequately answered.

However nor is the time to

unvote

whilst I still sense that the outlook changed, and it was not hard to convinvce NB, also that others had already raised the points that seemed so convincing to NB. But he is right that he didnt actually flip flop in terms of the fact.

So now where to put my vote.

@Hrezs, I have already answered your point about nervousness several times, your repeating it does not actually rebutt my response. The fact is people feel nervous even when they are innocent, but it was not this that was the overwhelming factor behind my reaction

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Furcolow

FoS: Boberz for checking the forum and not posting

it wasn't serious.

I was suspicious of his lurking the forum and not posting until being called out on it.

The only thing that changed there was me being called out on it but the calling out gave me a reason to post.

[boberz]

And I'm not a democrat.

vote: nic

...

unvote

Why is this all you have to say so far a2??? Stuff to comment on had happened at this point, and if you predicted you had a VLA/couple of days with no posting why not atleast mention what had happened.

---

[boberz]

@NB, are you serious??? It is clear I was talking about his meta, something you all need to read before you lynch the fool. And it was the link between FEMM and I (as you perceived) that I suggested you drop, not the case itself.

@abob, I admitt I have been focussed too heavilly on theory and indeed defending myself. But this is the effect caused by more than half of the voting players voting me in the first three pages on grounds I found neither true in context nor scummy at all. Of course I am going to try and undermine the attacks against me if they are wrong. Contrary to that note I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about nerves, whether I was feeling them and whether they are scummy. I never redefined nervous though, so stop slinging mud to just hope it sticks.

@Tasky, I sense much of what you are thinking of me is comparative to, or directly involving a game we just finished that is active. Therefore we should not expand.

@abob, I already pointed at one of fur's inconsistencies. But trust me, read his meta before pursuing the guy. I am not suggesting he is safe, but I think it is worth leaving for a night or two.

@caelum, making people answering icebreakery questions puts people at ease and makes the questions seem less scumhuntery. Making it more likely for scum to slip. Go read an MD thread about RQS or indeed more experienced players using it, there are often more than 1 icebreakery type question. Come on guys at least attack me with sense. Ice breakery questions v RVS, I pick icebreakery questions, but I actually prefer a proper RQS like what I did. What I detest are random votes, ending in mislynches.

[boberz]

^ The above link is also a great example of why nervous energy IS a scum-tell. That was my second post of the game, and I was completely right.

There must be hundreds of converse examples, your evidence is nothing. And it is this logic which loses mafia games every day.

[boberz]

Actuallt Nichol you suggested I had bandwagonned onto FEMM's accusation of flip flopping, I was pointing out it was a crosspost. That is all.

[boberz]

@ boberz -

Nervousness isn't a blanket, objective tell that you can apply in all situations. It's something you use on a case by case basis. When I scumhunt, I form a model about how someone thinks based on the way they write, and then I find things that don't match up with that model. If my model is accurate, then the things I found are scum-tells, because they stem from contrived motivations instead of genuine feelings that follow from their way of thinking.

Like I said, nervousness is not necessarily a scum-tell for noob players, or for any player in general who has a track record of being nervous as town. It IS however a scum-tell for YOU, in THIS game, because you are not a noob, and your posts sound contrived. You need to defend your reasoning instead of trying to categorically write off nervousness as a scum-tell. There are many different types of nervousness, and the english language is too crude to meaningfully articulate the differences between some of them. You are scummy because the

specific

things you have written in this game seem to come from a scum mindset, not because I've decided as a matter of principle that nervousness is "always" a scum-tell.

And you still aren't scumhunting.

Whey a bit of theory we agree on, context! We will still have to agree to disagree on this situation, I have articulated my views at such length you have accused me of dwelling on theory so I am just leaving it. I have done a bit of scumhunting, I wish the RQS had developed a bit better and there would have been a fair bit. Further I have a larger post on all followeing.

[boberz]

Yes, but spelling errors come when I dont preview posts, if you are talking about following, being spelt incorrectly. (spelling is pretty poor for me in general)

Why?

[boberz]

Wraith is not very active, this is not necessarily bad but next time he comes in he needs to do more than cling onto abob's coatails.

Tasky, reading him it kind of look slike he is buddying me (supporting RVS, defending my questions, defending my postion on nerves) but at the same time it does not strike me as bad because I would be a strange choice of buddy in this situation.

NB, adequate defence of flipflopping, although I still sense his attitude towards me shifted dramatically. And thepoints abob made about me had already been made albeit in not quite such an expansive manner. I disagree on his stance regarding the links between fur and femm, I actually think they are unlikely to be partners and I am not a big fan of speculation of this sort but it is not necessarily scummy. NB commits a couple of obvious mistakes (hint of too townie with respect to abob for example) but overall I am now thinking null/leaning town on him.

Moose, instigated political talk, and is very guilty in not letting it drop earlier. Very very lurky. Hung onto the coattails of abob's accusation of me. The flip flop that admittedly wasnt a flip flop was the only content he has posted, now this I feel has been undermined content is needed Now. Actually quite scummy for the lack of content but will to talk about rubbish

vote moose

Hrezs seems to have completely ignored my defences at every turn. Atleast others who are suspicious of me are developing their arguments Hrezs has a very tunnelly mindset I fear. Very reponsible for stagnating discussion over nerves for example. Wraith vote just a bit strange {b} unvote vote Hrezs[/b]

Fur, is stubborn with regards to mafia, he also refuses to explain the reasoning behind what he does or consider other people's ideas, this means he is annoying and always scummy. But it is too early to know, I repeat my request for all to just glance at a couple of fur's games (dont need to read much to realise what I mean) this is actually less scummy or atleast less strange than usual. I am however interested that in answer to my questions he was suggesting he would have to raise his game to find scum, perhaps he should have it permanently raised rather than raising it occasionally.

foilist I dont understand. His case on fur is wrong, but true (ie if he made that case against any other player I would be seriously considering it. I thought his request to abob was a good one, but maybe I am bias lol.

Femm, never answered why the questions were scummy, again hanging to coatails; how how much mafia a player has played is a scummy thing to ask I dont know. Seemed to go agains tthe grain thinking my defence was a good one, others moved off but FEMM seems atleast partially convinced. I am interested what FEMM thinks now regarding NB and flipflopping.

Caelum has done no scumhunting, but made a massive post pretending to, the nearest he got was lurker hunting moose, worth doing but no actual info has been found. Not very good, need more.

Abob has been consistent and persuasive. Many have been clinging to his coattails, but that is not abob's fault.

A2 is going to be replaced I imagine. he is going to turn up ask for time to catch up, by the time he has we have done another 3 pages or whatever he loses morale because a few lurker hunters are voting him and lo and behold welcome replacement.

[boberz]

No Hrezs, the point I am making is not that you find me scummy, but that you seem to ignore the defence and just repeat yourself, as you did again there. I am not continuing to discuss nerves as already discussed, but the word is still going to exist as it has been such a large part of the game.

You cannot just say 'deflecting is scummy' and expect me to defend myself. Because if I dont think it is scummy then what can my defence be. You have to explain yourself when you attack. As abob and others have done.

I did not suggest you were tunneling just on nerves, but more you were apporaching me with a tunelly mindset. Tunnelling to me is symptomatic of having your mind made up and not being opened to other opinions/defences/other arguments etc. This is obviously endemic of a scum mentality as they are looking for mislynhces rather than finding scum.





tags were wrong in the post.

unvote vote Hrezs

[boberz]

You have not posted defense, your defense has been "These things are not scum tells." Its how you started the game. You have to accept that it is a scum tell in situations then explain why what you did is not scummy. Your defense is all of "I'm not scum." Its as if someone was on trial and the prosecution brought up tons of evidence. Then the defendent just went "I didn't do the crime."

But I am suggesting there is no evidence just opinion (from you). If you say you look nervous, my reply is I wasnt nervous (and as an offnote stated I didnt think nerves were a scumtell). You may not agree but there is no other defence that can be possible. Unless you want me to lie and create some weird reason from nowhere. The same can be said of overreaction. And deflecting. If you explain why in this situation deflection was scummy then I will answer why it was not in this situation. But if you point at me and say 'deflection = scum' when I was partially deflecting not as scum all I can reply is 'deflection isnt scummy'. What you have done is not find evidence but look for stock tells to throw around. Even then you have only done it twice.

[boberz]

@abob, he was up to his usual tricks in Mafia in Mendo which I linked earlier. But honestly every game it is like that, so to lynch him is more or less a policy lynch.

[boberz]

@abob, ood advice, I tried to disguise the order of my reads in my list on everyone.I made that list by way of making me focus on others.

@all, my recommendation, we leave fur to a vig if we have one (not a fish so nobody show any hints in reaction to this warning!!!) and if not he will have exposed himself in a few days Iam sure. But Fur always does this.

@Caelum, mm what you did on moose is what I called lurker hunting, I found the same points on an iso of moose, but I did other things as well. So that is kind of what I meant. iso yourself and you will see what I mean I think. The best defence is just to change it.

@NB whey is just an exclamation that means very little but I suppose it means kind of 'see this' or something like that.

@Hrezs, your one line posts,whilst easy to read are not actually inputing any info for town. We need actual scumhunting.


@all, my posts are often in note form, stemming from uni, lack of energy and the fact I often write in notepad first. This I think is making me look like a foreigner. It is not just sheer laziness on my part.

[boberz]

Only fur is purposefully anting anti-town NB, I believe. Who else did you have in mind.

I think there are quite a few players looking town atm. A few who are acting differently from how others would like, but that is different from being anti town.

I dont really see FEMMscum, please may you restate your case now that the main point (the quote) has been agreed as a misunderstanding.

@Wraith, you did a reread of myself, moose, fur and FEMM. Because we were the biggest supects. I presumed from this you were hoping to get a bit of a bandwagon and momentum. But in the next post you cleared us all except Moose who you do not mention. You end up voting Hrezs. What made you focus on Hrezs when you were reading four others? WHy choose Hrezs to pressure when we were already beginning to spread quite thin?

[boberz]

unvote, vote: furcolow

tags didn't go through.

More later

Today?

[boberz]

you all aren't going to make me claim this game btw

Something we agree on. I doubt anyone will bother. Thanks abob, for your take on this the right stance I think. Perhaps worth a policy lynch in a later day, if not fur is bad enough to make a slip as scum so we may not have to rely on it.

EBWODP: I don't remember me saying that I think that Fur's play is EITHER VI OR scum nor do I remember me saying that I'm voting Furc because he's a VI

He actually quoted it. YOu clearly said you thought he was a VI but you voted him all the same. Try that defence again a bit more honestly. *Ok you have tried it again now (after draft) and it was better, a common belief that I accept. DIdnt like your first respond.

1) Fur, you, Moose, FEMM, Hrezs, and Wraith. Not to mention the nonposter- a2rudeboy. This is a lot to me.

Show me where any of these players (other than fur)) have

deliberately

acted anti town. The please stop making excuses and actually hunt them.

...what do you think I think about you

Who is yet to respond to this. If it is only a couple I want your analysis of it all and reasoning behind it.

@Tasky, do you really think caellum is scum?

@A2, have you read the current 9 pages, if not you probs need a replacement.

[boberz]

Hang on I have completely misunderstood this caelum.

Firstly you thought VIs can be scum as well. There are two definitions and this is one of them so I accept this. Then you denied you were voting him because he was a VI. SO am I correct in saying you are voting him despite him being a VI because he is still acting very scummily and you think he could be scum?

If so then fine I get it, and ignore my previous questions.

[boberz]

you all aren't going to make me claim this game btw

Says the man who wanted a claim on page 3 and defended wanting as claims being good for town. Now refuses to claim without being asked. Does anyone have some amazing meta reason not to lynch Furcolow?

Unfortuantly I do. As explained.

[boberz]

I presume this is the question about the vig. I thought that was a very strange question, why not just ask him who he thought was scummy?

But surely the key to finding scum is to work out which people are acting anti-town because they are anti-town and which are acting anti-town despite believing they are acting for town (infact there may even be some who are actually acting protown and you are just mistaken)...

So what is the point in saying 'there are too many people acting antitown' distinguishing them is your job.

[boberz]

Shut up Fur.

Tasky why is your vote where it is?

[boberz]

Fair enough, your last two points acutally sum up what I have been struggling to explain.

But there is something more interesting. When you say "pro-town suspect" do you meant yourself? If so does that mean anyone who attacks you is scummy? Or is it someone else and you have inside info???

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Haha another crosspost, people keep beating me to points (because I watch the iplayer while I type I reckon)

--

And another crosspost, but tbh I am not sure whether there is much point reading it.

[boberz]

Not asking you for WoTs, but you have o coribute scumhuntng in some way.

[boberz]

My keyboard is battered. I have to tap every button like twice before the leter comes out.

[boberz]

Him (me) asking what scumtells we use

I deny any such thing. If I had done that it would be scummy. I asked you how to find scum which is very different. But the fact they are interchangable in your book betrays a very one dimensional game.

I am sure I just misread that

Correct, if you are sure of that then why have you only noticed it in page 10?

buthchers the english language

A*English Language GCSE
A History A level (and most of the other A levels I did)
Currently studying for an Eco degree.
(Just saying)

There is only so long you can call me out on crap english before you work out how to read note form. I am not the first player to do this and I wont be the last.
So get scumhunting.

I insist, in fact I requested this a while ago

I agree! Bober came to fur's defense and both are pinging on my scum radar. I would bet that at least 1 of them are mafia.

Yah I'm contributing now!

That is not contribution from you!

@NB, why have you repeated various things we should ignore from fur several times. If you are ignoring fur then actually ignore fur please.

---

I agree with abob's latest post but tbh I dont like the accusation against him. But I want him to answer it.

[boberz]

Wait there is more!!! That is to the bottom of page 11

[boberz]

@Caelum: Who is that directed at? And why are you asking that question of me and moose in particular?

foilist/moose what do you think of Fur voting bober for fail reasoning and then unvoting when bober gave a defense that never addressed his fail reasoning?

I think Fur is clearly an idiot so fail reasoning is to be expected, and I think Boberz is scummy due to his nervousness as I said before Archaebob's case. His continuing to behave scummily does not surprise me. He probably feels nothing will come of Fur's attack as it is Fur who is making it. Therefore he has no need to seriously respond.

That was exactly what I thought, O think as it was fur's post I didnt even read it properly and have missed it. IF someone can show me the attack I can answer it.

vote wraith

Who do you think is scum wraith?

[boberz]

Look up too townie on the wiki NB. I am not prepared to consider abob this early in the game. He is the most pro town player there is. I am tempted on hrezs for the same reasons as earlier. He just seemed a step behind, and also had the mindmadeup attitude that betrays scum looking for a mislynch.

But Wraith has only presented one case (a similar one that NB and I have on Hresz) So he needs to up his game. He didnt do it after requests so let's give him votes.


@NB

Fur, you, Moose, FEMM, Hrezs, and Wraith

These were people you said were acting antitown.

Now you cant even find a small point on wraith?
Which is it?

[boberz]

NB I would like to know the purpose of your vig question please!!! Second time you have used it.

[boberz]

Sorry missed that, time for a reread me thinks.

[boberz]

NB dont get alienated we need you, you are active and atleast working hard.

There has been a lot of lurking going on, and town seem to be overly focussed on it. I certainly do not think we should let it drop but I worry we are using it as an excuse to not scumhunt properly. I am aware I am as much at fault for this as anyone else, but we need to look for a lynch target and if the other players dont like content then we are going to need a lynch (my job for Sunday as I probs wont be online much saturday) for today. We may end up repeating ourselves a bit.

Also aside from our furry friend I do not think there has been a great deal of spam.

Only one thing struck my notice in the last page or two:

and finally, regardless of boberz's alignment, he has one of the most active post rates here. He's also not unwilling to cooperate with town bandwagons, answer questions, or make cases himself. Therefore, atm, he's a costly mislynch for D1.

Thank you (sort of), but how do you know I am going to be a mislynch?

I dont want a lynch now. I still favour Hresz, but would participate on a Moose wagon to get him posting properly. I see him as less likely to be scum than wraith because wraith appears more with it with respect to what is needed but he is still not participating. Meanwhile Wraith needs to speak.

Tasky I want your words of wisdom on everyone who did respond to you now!!!

----

Wow this moose thing blew up as I was posting!!!

[boberz]

I dont have time to construct a proper post, busy weekend for me. But I will be able to catch up dont let that stop you abob (I can and will post properly tomorrow)

Boberz request!!! Within these PBPA people keep doing I would like a sentence or two with proper conlusions (ie more than 'I conclude s/he is scum!') It is hard to guage which posts are most important/which tells are best/worst in just a list.

[boberz]

We need a vig vig vig.

[boberz]

I am currently catching up from post 386, writing in full English just for you caelum

Post 387 is when Foilist first senses abob is off his game somehow.

NB thinks we should be less active, I disagree as this is ludicrous.

abob concurs we are too active, why???

Wraith pops in at 399 and posts complete codswallop "apparently I am a wagon".

@mod

FURCOLOW DISCUSSED ACTIVE GAMES IN #402!

I strongly dislike Wraith 404. It appears he has the OMGUS feeling about all his accusers without actually voting any the best example being abob.Apparently FEMM backtracked regarding myself, I did not notice that. Can you justify that Wraith?
I would still like to see wraith doing more scumhunting, that just didnt suffice. I do not mind the activity level so long as the posts themselves are quality.

Furcolow really does get in the way!

Wraith calls himself out on retrospective casemaking in 410. Well he is, even I dont believe this and it is defending me. I disagree with the logic but I can see where my attackers were coming from, the idea that my early wagon screamed scum is ludicrous. Wraith is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I agree with archaebob in post 416. Not quite sure why wriath kept slinging mud at abob, he never made a point against him other than aob liking wagons. This is not good enough.

Hrezs is arguably our worst active lurker. #417 for example. Still very happy with a hrezs wagon as well because Hrezs just doesnt help, but seems intelligent enough to do so. There had been loads of info before Hrezs posted in 417 yet he says nothing.

Moose looks bad in 418, do the scumhunting yourself, that is what abob is trying to say!!. Worth a wagon tommorow.

Tasky comes out fighting in 419, but I fear his point against caelum was just a misread of Tasky's original question.

Tasky presents a PBPA on me, it throws a lot of mud at me, much of it untrue, but it is pretty much a waste of space because there is no proper conclusion just a bunch of points. (Rather like this post I guess).

Brilliant use of the RQS by foilist in post in 422 (about Wraith lurking)

Tasky actually makes a good point in 426 about caelum. I managed to read it correctly, and also after reading everybodied responses caelum should ahve worked out that the question was different from how he read it. I read this as overeager scumhunting though. I fear tasky is not a VI as caelum suspects but just has a bit of the tunnelling townie about him.

I hope abob explains his post in 428!!! where he waves his hand of suspicion around with much frivolity.

Tasky 430, again giving a good account of himself, I do not agree with his points but I am not prepared to let him become an easy target (if he does that is)


Abob's 431 seems like a turning point so I will analyse this in slightly more detail:

I actually agree on the scumtell abob say on wraith, but am initially very wary of abob finding three scum so neatly.

I do not like how abob seems to leave the most important points till later, eg foilist meta, wraith sentence.

Abob also has setup the furcolow lynch tomorrow which he blames foilist for.

I also cannot conceive of foilist setting up two mislynches on two scumates. I know he is a good player but can he really go four days(ish) going it alone.

Conclusion: I am sceptical but I do not think much of it is actually scummy with respect to abob.



Wraith in post 435 seems to have calmed down. Like he has taken a deep breath to regroup. Null tell but he needed to do it as either allignement.

437 by Wraith is scummy. I am not even bothering to explain why, but come on!!!

Foilist 439 is one of the most thought out posts I have read in this game. Maybe I have been fooled.

Conclusion: I want to lynch wraith and let the others have it out. But I am worried that Wraith is getting caught in the middle of an argument that is really about something else.


Hrezs seems to have tiny things to say considering how important this exchange will be in terms of the game.

@ everyone -

I feel like we're losing your interest and investment in the game. This saddens me. I'd like to take a poll:

Who here thinks it's remotely possible that BOTH foilist and I town, and that we're BOTH wrongly accusing each other?

Wrong it has grabbed my interest. It is possible you are both town, often WoT arguments are, but because you play with each other a fair bit, because you are both good, and because it is meta based I suspect not. I have not ruled out the possibility of you pulling this off as both being scum. I think you have both prodded town for how noobyish it is a few too many times for my liking.



Moose turns up on cue. I am shouting him as scum, but let's check his claim first.

Where did NB go?

sorry all for the wall but the catchup was hard as you can imagine. Weekdays are much better for me in terms of time online so I can keep up better from now on.

mod: can I have a response ie Fur dicussing ongoing games. Is that allowed, worth a replacement?

[boberz]

All I said was he posted in another game
I wasn't discussing the nature of said game
nor was I saying which specific game I was talking about
I didn't know it was illegal to do that if you didn't actually give any information...

Thanks for being immature about something that literally gives 0 information about another game, and is irrelevant to this one
I was noting activity

I feel that I gained info.

[boberz]

Aso, welcome replacements, thank you very much for joining.

[boberz]

I am fed up with people accusing me of active lurking. I guess I have to explain my daily schedule of the past week (and the coming one as well) steup by step to lay these fucking accusations to rest.

7:15-7:30 Wake Up, Get Dressed, Gather Stuff, Check Email
7:30-8:20 Commute to University
8:20-8:45 Rest, Prepare Instrument
8:45 Section Warm-Up
9:00 Band Camp Kick-Off
9:00-12:00 Marching Exercises
12:00-1:30 Lunch
1:30-3:30 Sectionals
3:30-4:00 Break
4:00-5:00 Ensemble
5:00-6:00 Commute Home
6:00-12:00 Eat, Browse, Game, Mafia

From the entire stretch of 7:30 to 6:00 (if I'm unlucky) I have NO COMPUTER ACCESS. SO PLEASE STOP BRINGING UP MY LURKING AS A SCUMPOINT AGAINST ME. If you do in fact think I'm scum, fucking read my posts and find something to prove it. Otherwise, shut up.

As twice before I need to explain this to you. It is not the quantity of posts but the quality of the that constitutes active lurking, this being a perfet example of a that. Do some scumhunting rather than just cry RL.

That's scumtell 101

Moose this sums up why you are struggling in this game. There is absolutely no point in using a selfhammer against each other because the accused is already dead. You are just using tells other people have told you or you found in the wiki. Those two players are too good to make those basic errors, so we need to work harder and find less common new things.

I would still be hesitant on lynching Furcolow so I reckon a vig should hit him, if not I am going to turn on others before fur. I am not happy with how this has turned out, with two most experienced players sandwiching two worse players in a massive war of words that it is impossible for them to defend.

Time to call someone's bluff I think. I have some questions a bit later though.

unvote vote abob

[boberz]

Lol. You can make your full case about foilist asap, not trying to use it as a card to get yourself in to another day.

But I think it unlikely you are town with foilist. I am not comfortable with both of you putting Fur (and to alesser extent Wraith) in front of each other for lynches. Like it or not you have both been setting up lynches for the next two days.

I am not quite as much of a noob as you seem to have got the impression I may be. As such I have things to ask both of you (after dinner). But I am not having someone make a brash claim such as "I will selfhammer to win this game for town" the best case scenario you are creating a load of WIFOM for the wagon.

[boberz]

Now some of this mayhave already been addressed. I am redressing it because I want my two-pennies worth, I missed it in the walls somewhere or I didnt understand. Please humour me even if it means repeating yourself.

Firstly

and finally, regardless of boberz's alignment, he has one of the most active post rates here. He's also not unwilling to cooperate with town bandwagons, answer questions, or make cases himself. Therefore, atm, he's a costly mislynch for D1.

Thank you (sort of), but how do you know I am going to be a mislynch?

I did not quite understand your answer to this, please restate it for me.

Secondly @both foilist and abob
Why so you both think it is unlikely you can be scum together. (Other than the 'I am not scum' argument)

Thirdly
You both try and use Wraith agains the other. Now so many think he is scum, surely you understand that every case he makes (ie extensive on foil) is just WIFOM to us as town.

so abob, for example

In my opinion, this post from wraith is essentially conceding everything I've said to be true.

anythin Wraith does from here is WIFOM to us. Wraith is doing this deliberately he is not a fool.

Fourthly

Who here thinks it's remotely possible that BOTH foilist and I town, and that we're BOTH wrongly accusing each other?

What was the need for this? What did your poll achieve.

Fifthly

Everyone pay attention to how furcolow has given away everything in the last few pages

I thought we were ignoring what changed. (short answer please, I dont care what physically changed more why your attitude changed please)

Sixthly

set up a chain lynch

This is part of your accusation on foil, are you denying you have done this as well. I do not accept your "What we are doing is very different, because he is weakly linking players and I am strongly linking them (paraphrase as I understand it)

Seventhly

Abob you make a big thing of fur's breadcrumbing discussion. How do we know he is talking to foilist. (In fact answered my own question because you wouldnt bring it up if it was you)

Eighthly

@Archaebob: I can accept that for now. IGMEOY

Half an hour later

That being said, based on his posts he is probably town, and I'm willing to work with him at least for now.

What changed in between those two posts???
At what point did your view of abob change from the second quote to where it is now (near certainty)

Ninethly

Are you claiming cop?

Why specify the cop specificly???

Tenthly

@mod

Is daytalk allowed in normals? I am not asking specificly this game but is it allowed at all.

Eleventhly

Now doesn't that seem like a player you'd like to keep alive?

Do you think that I would be that easily manipulated (I was merely saying wait for a while because it looked a bit like too townie fallacy)

Twelthly

This is remarkably similar to Wraith as well. Wraith is one of the most active players, willing to cooperate, answer questions, and make cases for himself, and he made the exact same scum tell that is "the most consistent in Archaebob's mafia experience."

If this is true why are you convinced it is Wraith and not me? Just because of a perceived link with abob when you are not 100% about his allignment.


Thirteenthly

Why pick on abob, it was my suggestion (if I remember rightly, it was certainly what we decided on in my last game against fur) and others have picked up on it.


Fourteenthly

What is going on?

---
Cross post. Will answer abob in a sec

[boberz]

I just think it's in your interest to wait for a bit and make sure that everyone else is on board with that strategy though

I cant exactly do it myself can I.

Foilist, Wraith, and Furcolow on days 2-4

I would do it so long as each in turn was scum.

---

@caelum, NB, replacements... what shall we do?

@Fur, been anywhere nice recently?

[boberz]

@foil thanks for responding.

"Please read back"

I intend to.

Can you give me a post number?

Post 439

Comprende?

Yes but why make him claim cop? why not just ask was that a claim... (it seemed strange not scummy, as a cop is the one thing I wouldnt want to out)

This is WIFOM mate

I know, I was talking as if I was abob (speaking for him if you will). Did we become mates now you have to convince me, or do you say it to everyone? (not trying to sound horrible but just questioning motives.

This is a meta based argument

That is why I want to get rid of one of you, I dont know who to trust.

---

@ both foilist and abob. you realise you are both wrong dont you? (about either fur, wraith or each other)

@abob I don't think you are both scum, but I cannot dismiss that as a possibility. I have pulled it in f2f mafia before, and I would never forgive myself if I let players dominate me in a game. But I am intrigued as to why the scum are pulling this, as it actually cant work.

@foilist, why shouldnt I trust his 'lynch me now' gambit. Are you not sure of your read? And if he does flip town you must understand that you would naturally be the next target.

btw I dont necessarily think abob should have to selfhammer, we could just lynch him instead, easier all round.

Finally it is all meta and I am finding it hard to assess meta whe I wasnt in the games.

[boberz]

I've read/skimmed walls up to page 7. Right now thinking archaebob, boberz town, NB, moose scum. I still have to catch all the way up and then do more in-depth reading of the people who strike me as most scummy, but I figured I'd let you lot know where I'm at right now.

Good luck with the rest lol

---

I quoted the whole post originally (I think havent checked) have read it again.

If it says what you propose it should mean then it should read:

"(...words...)regardless of boberz allignment (...more words...) he would be a costly lynch"

that makes sense, but it actually reads

"(...words...)regardless of boberz allignment (...more words...) he would be a costly mislynch"

so you are saying, 'regardless of my allignment I will be a mislynch', that makes no sense at all. Could this be a slip (what do you think foil)?

[boberz]

@ boberz -

Also, the point of my question (who thinks we might BOTH be town) was to see if the gambit I decided to pull shortly after (offering to self-vote) would work. The poll turned out to be useless, but I decided to go with the gambit anyways (in retrospect, maybe a little hastily, as I've said).

[quote="my interpretation]In the most important, game changing period I pulled a gambit, it didnt work, so I did what I was going to do anyway. I then expect everyone else to just accept that my gambit was just a failed gambit and we should therefore go back to lynch wraith (Plan A).[/quote]

Obviously I brought in other posts to make this interpretation. Is this fair abob?

[boberz]

I understand your argument regarding the potential slip. I am just not sure I believe you, it still reads more comfortably the way I explain to the way you explain it. Still interested in foil's view on this.

---

Your interpretation of the gambit fits ok to me. So long as we can still lynch you. Which you maintain we can. Come on town let's atleast take him to

---

Okay the crux of my argument is...

Why on earth would either of you do this as scum. It is a guaranteed town win (assuming three Mafia, third party could screw things i guess, but only if they are helped by a Mafia win)

If Foil scum and not abob:
We lynch wraith and fur => find two scum. We lynch abob see town. Lynch foil scum town win.
We lynch abob now => See he is town. Get rid of foil wraith and fur. town win.

If abob scum and not foil:
We lynch wraith and fur => find two scum. We lynch abob, we have a perfect game (maybe even better if a vig gets fur). town win.
We lynch abob => kill wraith and fur. town win.

therefore only one of you being scum is highly unlikely unless the scum has lied about one of the other scum (no double bus) or has failed to notice that there strategy is breakable.

I conclude you are both too good for the second option so I am unwilling now to accept that you are on different teams.

If both scum:
We lynch foil or abob => find they are scum, proceed to get rid of wraith/fur until we find a townie among them. The survivor of the two has then built a fair bit of town cred, and may win the game, but in actual fact this is unlikely (but more likely than if abob was at the end) because we are not as foolish as you seem to think we are. Potential but unlikely Scum win.

We lynch wraith/fur=> Find town among them, and are presented with foil and abob both apologising wholeheartedly. And either altering or dropping their suspicion of the other. Probable scum win.

If both town:
We lynch wraith/fur =>
If wraith and fur scum >> We lynch abob, find town lynch foil find town. And have probable lylo. Potential scum win.
If at least one of wraith and fur is town >> Then both abob and foil need to eat some major humble pie and it is likely town is in a bad position. Potential Scum win.

We lynch abob/foil => We find town lynch the other. Probable scum win.


So to clarify.

If one and only one is scum. Town win every time. Therefore one of them is worse at Mafia than they think they are. But I dont believe this can be happening.

So either they are both town, or both scum.

[boberz]

Can you explain why it's not possible that I'm town and that he's scum? I've really fucked it up if I'm scum with all of my play, but I don't see why HE has

You both claim very good meta reads. It would not be optimum for either of you as scum to do this to the other, because it causes the game-breaking situation I try to explain above (unless there are some scum PRs I haven't thought about, foil might be a godfather (or one of his partners) hoping earlier for moose as cop.)

I do not think you are both town. You two need to apologise to the whole of town if you are after the game.

---

If you lynch me and I'm town, you still HAVE to lynch foilist. That's really important, and if you don't agree with this, then there is no way in hell I'm agreeing to being killed today.

I agree with this, but I dont like the ramifications if you are wrong (assuming you are town)

[boberz]

Ignore fur! Doc don't you dare save fur.

Abob has to be the lynch (unless it is foil, but that may be a bit harsh.)

If wraith and is scum it puts us into a much worse position.

Hresz voters, I know I was one of the big hitters on him early, but it is not him. Vote abob with me please.

Seriosuly abob needs to go, if he is town then we probably do have to get rid of foil. Not because we should keep an agreement but just because abob is likely to be right (if he is town).

I am not willing to take this game into lylo (or put it into lylo after) before we pick between foil and abob.

---

At least one of wraith and fur is town!!! This is fact!!! I know people are lost in walls, but this we know for definite!!! >>Unless we believe that both abob and foil are town or unless four scum a possibility.

[boberz]

Abob, you constantly telling us how you misread three players and staunchly stood by them for 2 days before being a mislynch does not fill me with confidence.

So basically we've both somehow broken the game beyond repair. Either of us as scum has royally fucked up, and if we're both town then we've royally fucked up. So in every case one of us has royally fucked up. That's nice.

Unless you are both scum.

I dont want a lynch untill you actually make your epic meta case abob!!!

If you flip town we'll both be completely wrong and we'll have wasted the entire day of discussion. A key feature of Archaebob's "plan" is that there will be little to no discussion on the follow days. If he's engineered this so that one of his scumbuddies escapes, there will be almost no way of finding them. It'll be like starting with D1 being lylo.

That is why I concluded, you are both wrong about this (or at least town among you is completely wrong)

Why am I the only one to take up abob's offer. That could prove something atleast.

NB, that is the other players fault, not ours. This has got us in a situation where in 3 of the 4 possibilities this is a certain town win.

Abob foil. do not shut up.

I believe that the "gambit" is a very scummy one to attempt.

Let's test it then.

---

THis is stupid. Two active players have agreed not to post. THis is stupid.

[boberz]

Abob it is true 'you started it' if you really want that discussion. But the fact foilist has been so gungho, with the meta argument and everything means he is essentially putting himself in the same situation as you but without the selfhammer claim. At the end of the day if we lynch you and you are town we will kill foilist (so long as you are both not town which was one of my caveats) then we find scum and town will win if it is fur and wraith. I do not think that foilist is crap scum, he had no reason to get drawn into this debate to this extent.

[boberz]

vote with me then

[boberz]

I've been so wrapped up in this crap I forgot who you and I were voting for.

Unvote Vote: Foilist

nice, why foil and not abob? i want you to vote abob.

[boberz]

NB I see you on the newbie forum come post in this game. Content.

[boberz]

I would choose abob over foilist if I had to.

Why?

Because he keeps delaying/not making this alledged meta case he assures us is perfect.

Also becasue I hate letting someone live who says "lynch me first to prove it"

Why do you think foilist is more likely scum.

[boberz]

Moose, start playing mafia, you are more worthless than the lurkers at the moment.

(before reading a wall by abob, I know wraith is scum, but he is only digging a hole that I can exploit tomorrow. )

abob if we lynch you we will slowly call your bluff. Until we find you have been lying.

[boberz]

Moose, start playing mafia

[boberz]

To be honest- I do not believe Wraith is scum, but i feel that Foil is scum. I think it would be better to lynch Foil.

I think they are both scum, but I am not letting abob live after the 'kill me gambit'.

[boberz]

Abob, I believe either you and foilist are scum, or (at least) one of you is having a very bad game. I see the second option as unlikely and the best way to check that is to lynch one of you anyway. But to make sure that the first option doesnt lead to lylo we need to off one of you now.

I am not sure we have a vig abob, I am not lining up vig kills nights in advance.

Ok so you are not going to self hammer, all that means is I need to find another person to join the wagon. Tbh abob I dont have a scum read on you, but I am just using my evaluation of the setup/current claims etc...

Hresz, Moose and caelum are by no means confirmed.

@mod

when did caelum say he was getting back?

[boberz]

Your posts do not go unread Moose, but you need to stop crying about how hard it is and start scumhunting. Even if you dont want to wade into the abob foil discussion yet you can scrutinise myself, wraith and hrezs. (trust me abob and foil are not going to say you have done anything wrong they are both busy buddying everyone)

[boberz]

Things I find scummy others laugh at

Manup, if you think something is scummy and someone laughs at it then turn round and justify why it is scummy dont roll over and take it. We are not n a newbie game there is no IC ready to turn round and give a 'decision' on whether something is scummy (which they shouldnt be doing actually) or not. You have to do it yourself

[boberz]

I do not think you are scummy for not wanting to be lynched abob.

You guys have demonstrated to me that this is not the case

So you dont think it is definately those three? or just not convinced we do?

But you guys can be just as hard-ass about this point tomorrow as you can today

and the next and the next and the next. The problem is each day is one nearer lylo. I want the info from your lynch (which there will be lots of) now.

You guys are seeing this as scummy because I said something earlier that was a little cocky, and now that you're "calling my bluff", I'm going back on it. This is really a stupid reason to lynch me, and please think about what you're doing. I understand that my outward display of arrogance and overconfidence hasn't made me any friends here, but I don't think it's worth it to you to do something illogical just to prove your point to me. I already learned my lesson from this particular episode.

I'll be your friend. And arrogance is not a scum tell (you should see me when I know I am right in newbie's). I am not even 100% convinced you are scum. But lynching you or foil is currently optimul (can I have the rest of that meta read please abob) and I prefer you.

There is no reason not to delay lynching me because of my "offer" for one day, because I can't make this argument to you everyday until lylo

Two of them could be buses. I dont want to be taken this far by a bussing scum. You have made the situation untennable for yourself. Not by your arrogance but by the mechanics of the game. If you back down on the 'foil is scum 100%' (or he on you) this changes (but we get suspicious for other reasons of course) but for now one of you has to go. Then we test the person who is town until they are caught in a lie and we know we can catch you both.

@Town if these guys are both scum we have our best chance (by factual probability rather than reads) by lynching one of them now not later I have already demonstrated this. The unwillingness of either to go along with this pings my scumdar. If only one of them is scum then both courses of action lead to the same answer eventually.

Abob your screams of perfect game are really scummy btw you know how bad it is to scream that at indecisive town. It is shocking. I know you are trynig to save yourself but you must realise you have put yourself in a position where that cannot be at all costs.

I also find it interesting how this all blew up before the hresz wagon achieved anything solid, perfect timing much? My shout is that if we catch these to bussing each other then we take a long hard look at hrezs (if wraith is safe).

Abob I havethought about it a lot, surely you have been reading my posts. You did not dispute my posts about setup, you know it is the right play for us to go for you or foil. You have to see it from our point of view.

[boberz]

@mod can I have another votecount please (sorry Ill try and keep up better)

I am worried that if your meta read on foil is right, but say fur is wrong. You would be able to claim that fur is a fool and survive (ie what I think is going on), this with other things likely to happen could do you. If only one of you is scum you are relying on town noobishness. I am determined not to let that happen, hence why I am taking a leaf out of your bopok and trying to lead town a bit more.

@town

@ boberz - I understand your point of view, and it mostly makes sense.

this is directly related to my suggesting we have to off one of them first. I am happy to have it be foil (would rather abob) but please nobody else please. Even abob is nearly saying it.

[boberz]

Though the first three are smart enough to be pulling it off as third party

Why not scum?

I still want the rest of this meta read. (I will obviously put my vote back on you at any moment dont feel safe.

unvote vote foilist

Didnt like his, attitude about not wanting to talk today.

[boberz]

A general question to all- Why are you voting arachebob is it because of the following?

I assume this wasnt for me as you have asked me this question and I gave an answer that was none of the three options. I feel you are misrepresenting my argument.

A) We can hold archaebob accountable for Foilist's flip tomorrow.
B) We can look at the content of Foilist's posts to determine Foil's relationships with other people.
C) archaebob has been blasting away walls of text at Foilist, with pretty much only meta reads. He did not exactly set up any relationships with players other than Wraith and Furclow.

A and b are applicable to abob as much to foil and C is just bollocks.

---

NB seems to have not read the last 10 pages. I am cringing when I read the same debates that have already been had in much better quality.

without your vote, both wagons are neck to neck, actually.

I am happy with getting a claim out of foil, but will probably swap back to abob.

---

NB if you cannot see why your insistence to lynch one and only one of two practically interchangeable targets is scummy. Your interactions with people (ie asking the same people the same questions over and over again trying to get a different answer) is scummy.

Yolur insistence there is more info from a foil lynch is what annoys me most. But I am by no means convinced you are scum

[boberz]

There is not more information from a lynch if you are basing that claim on a reveal. It is just a circulur argument. I do not mind you preffering the foil wagob but there is the same info from both. Certainly if abob is lynched and is town we have a suprising situation but one in which our course of action is clear (take a long hard look at foil and wraith.)

Essentially I am asking you to stop requesting everyone else to follow your gut read. Atleast accept that in terms of our course of action and probabilities it is the same with both candidates.

Replacements catch up please. Foil I am sure we will get you to L-1 (ie wraith swap your vote so we can get foil to claim) soon. When you are there can you claim please.

[boberz]

@moose you really have to be voting now!!!

@NB, I dont mind you arguing for foil, I just worry you are misrepresenting the debate when you claim there is not much to gain from lynching abob.

Meanwhile NB you might be right about getting foil to claim.

unvote vote abob

reasoning, NB is probably right about the foil claim.

[boberz]

I'm really confused by what you're accomplishing here boberz. Do you like foil's arguments against more than my arguments against him or what?

If it turns out you are bussing each other or something I think you are more likely to be able to answer it away later in the game.
Also because of your gambit I will feel sillier if you get away with it (whilst not a valid point on why you are scummy it gives me outside motivation on two interchangable targets.)

If you are town I will not let foil win this game as scum!

[boberz]

Why are you still posting fur?

[boberz]

I do want to put Fur off, it is not a newbie game so I am allowed to purposefully put players off. I am desperately hoping he flakes from playing mafia. I do not pretend it was a contributory post, but I am fed up of him.

Moose I am not scum, you know that in your heart of hearts.

unvote vote foilist.

THis si assuming esu catches up and ends up voting foil I will be here regularly to get a lynch. But esu seems to have better knowledge of the two's meta.

[boberz]

Good we need a lynch now!!! Deadline not long.

Go wagon go, go wagon go, go wagon, go wagon be good.

[boberz]

No! I will be so angry it is silly.

[boberz]

Fur and wraith, swap your vote to foil now. I dont care if abob is a better lynch we are lynching foil today.

Caelum, come back and vote foil.

Caycedo come back and vote foil.

Esu vote foil. You sound like you want to anyway.

mod can we have a small extension as neither of the replacements have caught up?

[boberz]

Let's all kill foil.

[boberz]

Esu, once you have read the last bit you will hopefully understnad we have to lynch one of the two. Unless you think they can both be town (something I doubt highly).

I was only suggesting you vote now if we do not get an extension.

[boberz]

Who has fund his play scummy fur? You and wraith as I have read it.

Why am I not in your steer town list when NB is, I toght we were opposite sides of the same stick.

[boberz]

Yes my keyboard is playing up.

[boberz]

Who has fund his play scummy fur? You and wraith as I have read it.

Why am I not in your steer town list when NB is, I toght we were opposite sides of the same stick.

Meant to read.

Who has found his play scummy fur? You and wraith as I have read it.

Why am I not in your steering town list Fur, when NB is. I thought we were opposites sides of the same stick.

[boberz]

I'm back from V/LA... I'd appreciate if everybody made a small post with their current stances on the game... this makes it easier for me to see how the game evolved while I reread.
I think it should also be helpful to focus the game a little

I think that you havent posted enough and better catch upquick.

[boberz]

I'm back from V/LA... I'd appreciate if everybody made a small post with their current stances on the game... this makes it easier for me to see how the game evolved while I reread.
I think it should also be helpful to focus the game a little

My general stance on the game is that Archaebob and Foilist have had a ploy via a play-fight and are scum together

Good vote for foil

[boberz]

blue snipe?

Eithe way, move your vote now.

[boberz]

What on earth makes you think anyone would use blue snipe as a synonym for what you just said. Why would you rather have foilist sending the kill, isnt it likely that a a partner would be sending in the kill?

Who's up for a policy lynch on fur tomorrow?

[boberz]

many people use that term
sorry you're living in a bubble

Show me, I have played a fair bit and it is certainly not common. Quote anyone other than you saying it.

[boberz]

Why would you rather have foilist sending the kill, isnt it likely that a a partner would be sending in the kill?

Noted how fur didnt answer the important bit.

[boberz]

No. Go and vote for a proper wagon this close to a deadline

[boberz]

I'm voting foilist because i find him scummy.

That'll do. So long as you vote for him I dont care. You cannot ask us to do the work for you tasky. We are working hard enough as it is (or atleast we were, now I am worried about the lynch)

Essentially fur and wraith have been called scummy by everyone pretty much. Abob and foil are nearly 100% on each other being scum. So because wraith and fur are on abob and the wagons are similar I have gone for foil. You need to follow through.

@mod, please respond re:deadline

[boberz]

Why would you rather have foilist sending the kill, isnt it likely that a a partner would be sending in the kill?

Noted how fur didnt answer the important bit.

Learn how to speak English properly, and I might be more apt to respond to you

Fur, people with the intellectual capacity of a gnat only make themselves look foolish when they criticise my English; I do not mind smart people criticising as they are better than me. As I have explained I am more than comfortable with my ability to articulate my musings with the language of Shakespear. The quote you cite is a perfect example of English as it can be used, in that several different prefaces to the statement are appropriate so none are actually required. It is a literary technique that is learnt at about 15. So it can read:

I noted...
It should be noted...
Others have noted...
and many othe variations. The point is it requires a certain mental capacity to understand English as I use it (not all the time of course). This intellectual capacity you, unlike most others on MS, severely lack. There are times when what I have said is quite incomprehensible, for that I ahve already apologised to the other players, those who actually matter.

I do not feel guilty about the way I use English after all it is what the game is about (reading and trying to analyse what each other is saying) but there are people like you who are just insufferable. You are anti-town and should be modkilled in every game you play. I cannot believe I had not noticed you join because you are the sole player on my black list.

I have no problems with the other player moaning about my spelling, or requesting what the meanings of obscure expression I use are from. But you are a dick sir. A dick.

@town please everybody blacklist this guy he is insufferable. I cannot believe I joined a game with him in, it was accidental. I am enjoying the game and really want to know what is going on but unfortuantly I have decided to replace out. I have been considering this since I noticed Fur post and realised he is in the game.

I am just fed up of his mindless butchering of the game. It is meant to be mental stimulus. He has the mental without the stimulus.

Therefore:

@mod: I have decided to replace out, I will continue to post untill a replacement is found for my spot so there is not a massive gap from my spot. Not your fault at all, thanks for running the game.

---

And fur, a person can't be apt. The word you were looking for was inclined. Slightly ironic that you made the error in a post criticising my English.

---

Hope to play with the rest of you some other time, if any of you mod PM to replace whenever you want I normally leave a spot free for such a thing.

[boberz]

That wasnt contribution. I did not scumhunt, I just ranted at you. Fur ever read "how to make friends and influence people"?

(apt must mean something different in English to American then. It sort of means appropriate where I come from.)

Fur I canot actually believe you are 24, you need to grow up. I am not even joking.

Meanwhile FUr you do actually need to move your vote. (noticed the deadline?)

[boberz]

I just got all As my last semester, have had a girlfriend for two years....

I feel for her, but I suppose that proves my point.

Meanwhile nobody will be flipping anything until you guys swap your vote. You said you think foil is scum, we are near deadline, you hold balance of power. Swap your vote.

[boberz]

I am replacing out, but as I made clear I am going to keep the post rate up. But I do apologise for insulting you I shouldnt really.

[boberz]

Perhaps, but I just can't abide fur. This is meant to be a game and I am meant to enjoy myself.

[boberz]

You won't get a lynch out of it, and I am also not happy about abob and foil both moving on him. 90% a mislynch, but sounds like fun

unvote votefur

[boberz]

Moose do you not care that he has claimed jester?

[boberz]

unvote vote furcolow

Leading wagon a policy lynch, probably not good but the vindictive side of me has come out.

[boberz]

unvote vote foilist.

I also dont like policy lynches and we really should lynch one of abob and foil

[boberz]

I intend to replace out. I will play until a replacement is found.

[boberz]

Let's concentrate on getting a lynch now.

[boberz]

We'll see, I dont 100% doubt your read and I am just a bit wary of what is going on in this game. I think everyone needs a nice solid alignement.

[boberz]

Abob you will be waking up, of that I am sure.

[boberz]

I dont have time now but i will post again, go town.

[boberz]

To be honest I decided pretty early in your argument that I could not match you two for ability. But I could read it all in detail and poke as much as I could from it. In the end I decided not to read either of you but just test you. I understand my post (essentially saying that if one of you were scum town had won) was a little bit of a misrep, but it was 80% right and I was willing to test it. That is why I decided to call your bluff rather than work it out. Lazy but it worked.

Cheers all, does anyone have any advice for me?

Sorry about the replace out but he was deliberately trying to annoy me specifically.

[boberz]

Tbh doesnt change the game much, we got lucky at night, but abob still played very well. FOil why couldnt you just play your real town game for the first couple of days and kill off abob at night?

[boberz]

There is no way I would have killed archaebob at night. He is just too much fun lol

But seriously why not do it? I am confused.

[boberz]

He said earlier he wasn't playing to win.

I had assumed this was not true. It kind of ruins it for me if it is true.

[boberz]

Not really if I am honest, but I am happy with your explanation now. It is not as if you threw the game to try and get one over on abob.

[boberz]

But that is the game, I have never understood that attitude but I am happy for others to have it.

[boberz]

It is interesting, loads of people say this I ahve seen it in other games.

I just dont get it. I see it as a race, can the person with a good meta on me (or just a good scumhunter) catch onto me and convince town before I can dispatch of them.

[boberz]

There's no situation like the one you are describing in mafia, Hrezs. This is a game of writing, and people. Being thrashed by someone 1000x times better than me would be an incredible experience in mafia. Can you imagine how kickass their writing would have to be? It'd be worth it just to be able to read the game over and over again after.

Listen people, this is a

website

. How good your record or your reputation is on this site is of zero consequence to anything outside of playing this game. I play mafia here because it's the most amazing game I've ever played; the amount of depth and strategic complexity that emerges in these threads is incredible. If I ever have the opportunity to play with someone who is literally three or four times as good as me, then there is no fucking

way

I'm going to night kill them N1.

Maybe N2.

It isn't about the reputation or the recrod for me, but as I said I see it as a race, can I be caught before the town catch me. NKing the best player (If that is appropriate) is part of the game for me. But each to their own.

[boberz]

As I say I get it, and am no longer annoyed (in case I give the wrong impression) I for a moment thought you had thrown all chance of winning by just trying to outlive abob. I stand corrected.

If it is NB you are talking to solely now I apologise and don't minde me.

[boberz]

Good I thought so.