Mini 1026 - Ohne Mafia (Game Over!)

[archaebob]

/confirm

[archaebob]

hi!

[archaebob]

vote: boberz

As far as I'm concerned, this dandelion here is already obvscum.

[archaebob]

FoS:

Boberz for checking the forum and not posting

If this is a serious fos, then why are you keeping your random vote?

[archaebob]

Why Boberz is Scum

What? That has to be one of the most obvious questions in the world. Classic random question to kick things off. Atleast explain what I have actually done wrong.

Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum. But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it. So try again moose.

Meanwhile, please answer the questiond.

@ everyone - This above quote is what you call a textbook scum-tell. Here's why:

1)

Overreaction

- The entire post above was given as a response to a one line post by moose, which contained nothing more than a vote. While the format of moose's post does seem to imply some actual suspicion with regards to boberz's proposed RQ list, it would seem to any calm and collected town player more as a light toss of suspicion intended to start discussion than a serious, impassioned accusation. Boberz, however, seems to have interpreted this as an all out attack, and responds with a great deal of indignation and surprise. What this shows is that boberz is nervous as hell; he is playing perpetually on the edge of his seat, and is hairtrigger sensitive to anyone who looks at him with scrutiny. This type of jitteriness this early in the game is much more characteristic of a scum mindset than a town one.

2)

Desperately Overdefensive

- Not only does boberz overreact here, he also attempts to remove all conceivable suspicion from himself in the most panic-stricken way possible. This indicates a mindset that prioritizes saving its own hide over scumhunting. Let's look at this first part of this quote:

"What? That has to be one of the most obvious questions in the world. Classic random question to kick things off. Atleast explain what I have actually done wrong."

The main problem with this quote is its tone. Boberz is writing with a tone of desperation that reminds me more of someone guilty who fears he may have been caught than someone innocent who feels they have been unjustly accused. In case you were wondering, the way you tell the difference between the two lies with the teeth. This quote has no teeth. It has no hint of distrust or combativeness in it whatsoever. If boberz were a town player who did not already know moose's alignment, his prime incentive would be to gather information that would help him figure out if moose was scum or not. Instead, his main priority is to figure out "what I have actually done wrong." Boberz accepts too readily that might have done anything wrong to begin with, and rolls over in conciliatory panic at the first vote of the day.

Let's look at the second quote from this post:

"Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum. But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it. So try again moose."

Here, he presumes the reasoning behind his adversary's attack, instead of trying to figure out what it actually was. You can almost hear his mind audibly racing here, going through all the various possibilities of where he might have slipped up, and trying to come up with plausible excuses for them. "You probably think this, but if THAT's what you think, here's the explanation I've already come up with for it that should exonerate me." This guy is so jittery, he already has his alibi worked out before moose has even made a serious case. Now what kind of role in this game needs to have fabricated alibis for everything?

Then the very last line is an edgy little insert designed to simulate the sort of teeth I was talking about earlier. It doesn't work though. The line "so try again moose" sounds too contrived and deliberate; it's incongruous with the tone of the rest of his post. This is a common scum tactic: to put out a hard edge against your attacker to make it seem like you are confident in your innocence. Unfortunately for boberz, the rest of his post has already betrayed how entirely unconfident he is, and his last ditch attempt to fabricate this feeling simply comes off sounding fake.

3)

His defense is WIFOM, and makes no sense

-

Let's look closer here,

"Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum.

But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it.

So try again moose."

Boberz's defense is essentially this:

"There is NO WAY I'm scum, because scum would never say what I just said. You see? Did you catch that? I asked players how they intend to catch scum. This is probably going to

remind

them about how they want to catch scum, because they'll have to think about it to answer my question. And because I've reminded them of their scum-hunting strategy, they'll be more likely to actually use it to find scum. This is good for the town! So, basically, there's no way I can be scum because why would scum want to do something that helps town?"

This defense is riddled with problems, the most glaring that it is entirely WIFOM. Scum

constantly

do things that "help town", especially things like asking superficially useful questions. They do this because

scum are trying to appear like town themselves

. And there is no better way to appear like town than doing things that are supposedly helpful to the town. Boberz knew this to be true, and that is why he already had this whole explanation for his actions worked out this early in the game. "C'mon guys! I'm helping town! Why would scum help town?" This is wifom, because scum do townish things to look like town themselves

all the time.

The second big problem with this defense is that it

doesn't make sense. Let's think about this. Does asking players how they scumhunt

really

help the town scumhunt by

reminding

them of their strategy?

um...no...not really

Now, I'm not going to say there's no truth to it whatsoever, but it's positive impact on the town's success is negligible at best. And without a doubt, asking players how they scumhunt is VERY helpful to the scum, who, by knowing the strategies of the town, can more easily subsist in the cracks of people's scum-hunting strategies.

It is for the above reasons that I consider boberz to be the scummiest player in the game right now, and why I expect to see more votes on him in the immediate future.

[archaebob]

EBWOP: Italics got a little screwed up towards the end there...lol.

"The second big problem with this defense is that it

doesn't make sense.

Let's think about this. Does asking players how they scum hunt

really

help the town scumhunt by

reminding

them of their strategy?"

[archaebob]

@ nicol -

it's "archaebob", not "arachebob". not a big deal, just saying.

[archaebob]

So it's all war, jesus and guns for you eh? Meh, no political talk. LOL.

What an atrociously condescending and ignorant comment.

But yes, no political talk. LOL.

[archaebob]

@ Furcolow - Why do you want a claim? It's page three.

[archaebob]

wanting a role is exactly the definition of role fishing..........
I don't mind the want for the claim, its just that it was from furcolow bothers me

What do you mean?

@ a2rudeboy, Hrez, Femm, and Wraith - You

need

to vote for somebody. I don't want to hear any of this "I have suspicions, but they aren't vote-worthy" crap. The important thing at the beginning of D1 is to have positions (no matter how ill-founded), and to pressure people. This is the way that information is generated, and nothing accomplishes this better than voting. Finding some scumtell, no matter how weak, and casting a serious vote in response to it is 100x better than keeping out of the fray in the name of "caution." Nobody is in serious danger of being quicklynched this early in D1 unless people are reckless. Just don't put anybody at L-1, and things will be fine.

A number of you have expressed some amount of suspicion towards Furcolow for his supposed rolefishing. If you are one of those people...

...

... then VOTE HIM, you fuckhole. (unless you're already voting boberz and think he's scummier)

If you don't want to vote him, then vote somebody else. But everyone needs to be voting their top suspect right now unless voting that person would put them at L-1. And if that's the case, then they need to be voting their second to top suspect. This is the best way for this town to generate content and catch those scum.

Also

caelum

has yet to post since confirming.

[archaebob]

unvote

vote furcolow

[archaebob]

@ Boberz - Don't claim.

[archaebob]

@ Furcolow -

Voting me based upon what? I haven't done anything wrong this game whatsoever that has negatively impacted anything, and me putting FoS onto him a couple of pages ago is what lead to this vote in the first place in my eyes, so I don't see where you're going with this archaebob

Putting someone up to L-1 and asking for a claim on page 3 is horrendously bad for town. D1 needs to be at least 10-12 pages before a lynch will be acceptable. And that is a bare, I mean

bare

minimum. Upwards of 20 pages is more likely, and probably closer to optimal. The main priority D1 is gathering information; we want to have lots of conversation about as many players as possible before going to night so that we are best equipped to catch the scum later in the game.

and I really don't appreciate your language.

How old are you?

I don't know if boberz is scum, but if he doesn't come around to defend himself I wouldn't really mind someone hammering him. I really dislike not having a deadline in general, as I'm used to 48 hour days believe it or not.

There is a deadline. It is in two weeks.

Have you ever played mafia on this site before?

[archaebob]

I want to know why archaebob voted him initially.

Do a votecount and you'll see.

[archaebob]

@ Furcolow - You didn't answer my two questions.

And there's no hypocrisy. There's a difference between gathering information that helps town and asking for information that helps scum. The ONLY thing you are going to accomplish by asking for a claim this early is to out a PR. This is a terrible idea. How exactly does asking for a claim help town this early in the game? It certainly helps scum.

@ boberz -

Can you post a few links of town metas?

[archaebob]

What does "Most fallacious tell ever." mean? I feel dumb right now.

I'm surprised to see this coming from Mr. Democrat. After all, I've just naturally come to assume that liberals are smarter than the rest of us. Especially since all non-liberals are either rubes, hicks, or idiot religious peasants who do nothing but preach racism and warmongering way out in flyover country.

Btw, if you need to find out what the word "fallacious" means, I recommend dictionary.com LOL

[archaebob]

A few comments:

- The case against NicolBolas is utter trash. He didn't "flipflop" his opinion, he changed it in light of new information. And he's defended himself quite well. Anyone who stays on that wagon without formulating a new attack on Nic is active lurking, period. That means you, Femm. If you put so much emphasis on flipflopping, then you need to read furcolow's iso and tell me who you think between the two has been flipflopping more.

@ Boberz - Nervousness is only a null-tell if you are a noob. You are not a noob. Experienced townies have no need to flip their lid at a vote.

And I'm not interested in whether or not you think you were nervous. This is pure semantics and ninja dodging of my attack. You can define and redefine what it actually means to be nervous, and it won't get you anywhere; the point is that your reaction betrayed a level of anxiety not characteristic of town.

Nervous energy absolutely IS a scum-tell. I don't care what you want to call it. There are at least two distinct games where I nailed scum five or six pages in because of the overly-analytical and defensive tone of their posts. You aren't going to convince me that it's not a scumtell by trying to interpret the problem out of existence.

The only thing you've done since my case on you is defend yourself poorly, make lots of fluff posts about theory, and vote against NicolBolas based on an extremely bullshit case. If you're actually town, then you need to get your discombobulated act together now, or motherfucking else.

Notes to all the players

(I don't normally do these, but this game is unusually dense with noobery.):

a2rudeboy - Play or replace out. We don't have time for this crap.

boberz - Addressed above.

caelum - I like your last post a lot, but I'm missing a vote. Also you haven't been around, so I'd like some more content in general. Tell me more, tell me more! (sung in the style of Grease)

Femm - Most of your play is fluff. The only content you've posted (about Nic) has been useless. I don't really see what you've contributed to town so far. There's a lot to comment on right now, so please do something with yourself and with your vote that helps town reach its win condition.

Foilist - Meh. You're doing less than you usually do, which is disconcerting.

Hrez - Your posts are too short. Why did you vote wraith? Saying "I'm not feeling it" is not adequate. I need to be able to figure out your alignment, and the only way I can do that is if you make arguments against people. I like your individuality and your attitude, but I need more content.

Moose - Caelum took you to task on your play, and I agree with him completely. You've done absolutely nothing but bandwagon, make glib and ill founded insinuations against Nic, post theoretical fluff, and spew political excrement. In any other game I've ever played, you'd be my number one scum pick.

NicolBolas - So far, I have the least complaints about your play. You write coherently, your logic is good, you have opinions which you stand by, and you seem to be paying attention. Up to this point, you've mostly concerned yourself with the attacks on you (not solely, just mostly); stop wasting your time, the attack is crap, and you won't get lynched for it. I'd like to see you go on the offensive and really sink your teeth into something.

Tasky - You say you have this weird scumhunting strategy...well, I have no clue what you're doing, and I need to see some results very soon. Your play up to this point is pretty much devoid of content, and your characterization of the boberz wagon in your iso #2 makes me think you aren't reading the thread carefully.

Wraith - I can tell you're a smart dude, and that makes me very unhappy with your play. You're active lurking. Do a votecount yourself if you have to. But start playing.

^ As you can see, there are way more of you whose play I don't like right now than I can possibly vote. So please, make a change yourself, or town WILL lose this game. And don't get offended if I come after you hard in this post, that's just me, it's not something to be taken personally. The important thing is that we get some measure of pro-townness in this thread; right now, the signal to noise ratio is exceptionally low.

[archaebob]

And now the meat.

@ Furcolow -

If you missed my questions, then you need to read thread more carefully. Your play is horribly anti-town:

1) You asked for a claim and a lynch on pg. 3. This is like buying the scum gift cards to a gun store.
2) You've contributed very little content. The only original insight you've offered is to call a2rudeboy out for lurking. This is easy as hell to do as scum, and does not contribute anything of value to the town.
3) You've flip-flopped and contradicted yourself quite a few times. I'll bring it up in a bit if no one else does, but first I want to see if anyone else picks up on it.

You're play is very scummy. And if you aren't scum, you are a VI. Either way, you're my top candidate for the D1 lynch so far.

[archaebob]

@ Nic -

This should answer your question.

[archaebob]

^ The above link is also a great example of why nervous energy IS a scum-tell. That was my second post of the game, and I was completely right.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Nervousness isn't a blanket, objective tell that you can apply in all situations. It's something you use on a case by case basis. When I scumhunt, I form a model about how someone thinks based on the way they write, and then I find things that don't match up with that model. If my model is accurate, then the things I found are scum-tells, because they stem from contrived motivations instead of genuine feelings that follow from their way of thinking.

Like I said, nervousness is not necessarily a scum-tell for noob players, or for any player in general who has a track record of being nervous as town. It IS however a scum-tell for YOU, in THIS game, because you are not a noob, and your posts sound contrived. You need to defend your reasoning instead of trying to categorically write off nervousness as a scum-tell. There are many different types of nervousness, and the english language is too crude to meaningfully articulate the differences between some of them. You are scummy because the

specific

things you have written in this game seem to come from a scum mindset, not because I've decided as a matter of principle that nervousness is "always" a scum-tell.

And you still aren't scumhunting.

[archaebob]

@ Hrezs -

Fine. But in the future, you need to outline your case yourself. I don't intend to make another massive post about everybody again.

@ boberz -

If you post a link to a Furc meta, I'll read it. He doesn't have a wiki, and I'm not going to hunt his past games down.

[archaebob]

@ some important advice for everyone -

In general, do NOT post full town rankings of your suspicions, or declare your town reads. I know I violated this rule a little while ago, but I did that because I had primarily negative things to say, and I really felt the town needed some direction. Most of the time, town lists just help the scum figure out who to NK (I know this from experience playing scum; when everyone in the town is saying "I think this person is town", it makes the kill choice obvious). My recommendation is to only ever talk about your top three suspects. This way the scum can only work with who is NOT being suspected; there's no way for them to distinguish between null reads and strong town reads.

Some of you are going to say that the information from town lists is more important than not helping the scum pick their kill. While I understand this sentiment (and used to share it myself), the truth is the info from town lists is really outweighed by how much they help scum. Town lists are gold gifts of information for the mafia, very much like early claims. So don't do it, unless you want to say goodbye to your protown players as soon as possible. Focus on your scum suspects and get them lynched. Talking about players who you are not your focus only gives the scum a clearer map of where they can slip through the cracks. Also, focusing on only a few people at a time limits the amount of confusion and noise that will come with the inevitable omgus, AtE, and personality clashing that always happens with everyone pointing fingers at everyone. An organized and focused town that doesn't have a million conversations going at once is the hardest environment for scum to survive in.

[archaebob]

There were 11 items in your list. Here they are in random order:

1. Tasky
2. caelum
3. moose200x
4. foilist13
5. a2rudeboy
6. Wraith
7. boberz
8. NicolBolas
9. Hrezs
10. archaebob
11. FEMM the Attorney

Timestamp: 2010-08-19 03:17:01 UTC

unvote
Vote: Tasky

Pathetic.

In all honesty, please just replace out of this game, and stop playing mafia on this site until you graduate from middle-school. Your critical thinking skills and emotional maturity simply aren't conducive to you or anyone else enjoying the games you play in. You badly hamper your team's chance of success, almost deliberately it seems, and I seriously have no clue why you are still playing this game at all.

@ mod: can you forcibly replace Furcolow on the grounds that he is no longer playing to his win condition? This kind of thing seriously ruins the fun of this game.

[archaebob]

@ Hrez -

I'm playing to my win condition. There are things I know about how this game works that you don't, simply because I've been around longer. I'm giving my opinion on a theory point here in the nicest way I can because I think at least some players will see the logic of what I'm saying and change their play accordingly. This well help town.

So the fact that your ego is hurt isn't really all that relevant to me.

[archaebob]

@ mod: we also need a prod for a2rudeboy

[archaebob]

PLEASE replace out. We could really use a good replacement right now.

@ Furc -

I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You're useless to me. I can't even get a read on you because of how much of a VI you are.

@ vig (if you exist) - Please please PLEASE kill furcolow tonight. It's not just because I don't like him, it's because his level of play is so low that we'll never be able to read him as scum or town one way or the other. His play serves only to impede and distract the town.

It would be preferable not to have to lynch him, as it would be a policy lynch and would therefore stifle discussion. But if he's still alive tomorrow I don't really think we have a choice.

I'm done wasting my time on him, and I would recommend that all of us just ignore him completely for the rest of today. He has no useful contribution to make, and we're not going to get any information about his alignment from him.

unvote vote moose

I don't buy your defense about feeling small and inadequate in a game without a known setup. That shouldn't influence how you interact with players in thread.

Choose a player, make a case, and vote them. Don't give up or get dissuaded until they have convinced you that you are wrong. This will, if nothing else, pressure that person, and give us more of a clue about your and their alignment. There's a number of players right now who are avoiding discussion, which means there's a lot you could be doing to help town.

Right now you just look confused and disillusioned scum.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

You are no longer plagued by your succulent RL conflicts, and you need to start playing this game for real.

What the hell is going on man?

[archaebob]

Oh, and to those asking me to make massive posts. It might happen later in the game, but no promises. If everyone plays the same its easier for scum to avoid suspicion since they can just mimic what everyone is doing.

No. You have it wrong. If everyone plays differently, then the scum can just pass of their scumminess as being "a different playstyle." Having a different playstyle is fine, but only if you can justify it as being pro-town. If all the town players are doing the "same thing" in that they are all posting long posts full of rich content, then THAT is the hardest thing for scum to mimic. The more a scum posts, the more he has to fabricate, and therefore the more likely that he will screw up big time.

You aren't doing anything by posting short posts except posting short posts. It doesn't make it harder for scum, it makes it easier. Simply "mimicking what everyone is doing" is hard as SHIT if everyone is playing pro-town; you're making it easier by making short posts an acceptable meta for them.

[archaebob]

@ foilist - What is your opinion of moose ?

@ moose - What is your opinion of wraith?

@ wraith - What is your opinion of foilist?

You guys, seriously stop talking about furcolow. Nothing that he has done in this game is actually a scum-tell, because the dude is just an idiot. Idiots never betray their alignment one way or another. Furcolow is dumb enough to do anything that he's doing even if he's town, meaning he has no clue. He needs to be vigged, or policy lynched D2. I really don't want to hear anymore speculation about furcolow being scum with someone else or whatever.

unvote
vote Femm

For the moment I'm satisfied in my read on moose, and I want to see what he does with a little more breathing room. I also like Nicol's case on Femm a lot, and want to help out a bit with the pressure.

I would urge other players to join the Femm wagon right now. A lot of people are getting away with not answering questions and not really posting very much content, and we need a more unified and concerted effort towards forcing these players to be accountable to the town.

[archaebob]

A lot of people are getting away with not answering questions and not really posting very much content

Like Fur. I'm content with my vote, unless he gives a super amazing answer. I'd also like to see Femm's response to NB's case on him as well as more content from [REDACTED] before I consider switching.

Are you paying attention?

Continuing to scumhunt and question furcolow is a waste of time. It is practically active lurking at this point.

Everything

he has done in this game is a "scum-tell", except his posts betray a level of intelligence so low that it's not really evidence one way or another. He's idiotic enough to do all of this stuff as town, so what are you expecting to learn. I mean jesus christ, he even claimed jester at one point! He's either deliberately acting like a VI, or he's a moron. What do you hope to learn from continuing to go after him? He needs to be vigged, that's all there is to it.

If you want to here Femm's response, then you should help pressure him. He's already ignored Nicol's inquest at least once or twice, which means he doesn't feel incentivized to answer the questions against him.

Are you actually scumhunting? Or have you picked an obvious target that you can easily attack over and over again, therefore giving the illusion of doing something useful while not actually contributing anything to discussion?

Furcolow is scummy, and has a case against him a mile long. We get it. You aren't increasing the information that the town has by continuing to attack him. Please do something more productive with yourself.

@ foilist -

What I'm getting at is that I don't buy your Nicol vote at all. He's posted a lot more content than many of the other players in this game (ex. moose). Also, going after one of the few coherent posters in an environment like this one is destructive, no matter whether or not you suspect him. This game is a mess, the town is uninformed and disorganized, and there are more constructive things you could be doing with yourself. You're smart enough to know this. Your play so far has been exceptionally weaksauce for you, and I'm not talking about the fact that you haven't been around as much as usual.

If you're town, then you need to get your head back into this game before this whole thing self-destructs completely. I understand that you've had distractions, but you can't leave me hanging like this. The game is low on scum-hunting talent across the board, and I hope to god that a sizable chunk of it isn't sitting on a scum role this game.

FoS: foilist

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

Nicol's main target, Femm, has not posted since he made his last demand. He is kept his vote on Femm for very specific reasons. Really read the thread dude, he's trying to scumhunt. His iso doesn't contain 0 content either.

Player's who have posted less content than Nicol:

Wraith
Femm
Hrez
Moose
Tasky

ESPECIALLY Tasky.

Hey foil, why don't you go after tasky? He's next on my list. Or help us vote femm. But seriously, if nicol is scum, he's committed himself to an active post rate. We'll catch him later. I dont' see any real scumtells in his play right now, and I don't believe if you've really been following this game that you can think he is the best place for your vote right now.

[archaebob]

Listen, I honestly don't care that much.

Pick anyone on this list, and I'll gladly vote them:

Wraith
Moose
Femm
Tasky

Wraith is actually a great choice, since Hrez also has a vote on him already.

@ Nicol - I understand that you are most suspicious of Femm atm. I am suspicious of him too, and I promise that if he doesn't answer your questions, I will help you force him to address them. Are you willing to put it off for a bit and cooperate towards pressuring one of the other people on the above list?

@ caelum - It'd be awesome if you could help out too. Coordinating wagoning of individuals is going to wonders for this town right now.

[archaebob]

EBWOP: "going to

do

wonders for this town right now."

[archaebob]

The fact that it's IoA doesn't make it any less effective as case. If you're given a bunch of obvious evidence that clearly supports a specific contention, then it's clunky and redundant to weave in your own analysis and commentary. Sometimes the evidence is all you need. He still noted all the evidence he used in his case and drew a clear conclusion from it. And I don't think his reasoning is all that ambiguous.

anyways,

unvote
vote wraith

let's go go go.

[archaebob]

Nic. Please. Just vote.

Is there any reason why it would hurt to pressure wraith right now? He has not posted enough.
I really do understand your perspective, but I think you're fixating too much. If nothing else, this wagon will help focus the town, and it's worth pursuing for that reason alone. Uniting everyone on one discussion topic will be really helpful right now.

[archaebob]

@ nicol -

In other news, I really am starting to get uncomfortable about archaebob's extreme efforts at bossing players around.

Get over it. This game is exceptionally dense with facepalm for something not out of the newbie queue, and I'm actively trying to direct people towards what I think this town needs to do to win. I understand that you aren't necessarily convinced of my alignment, but bossing people around is a pretty consistent staple of my town meta.

He has insuititated that it would be bad to vote for "active" players, which he clearly is a part of. I kind of get the feeling that archaebob is trying to take up the reins of the town, and steer us where he wants to go.

Yep. That's exactly what I insinuated, and what I'm trying to do. Voting active, coherent players D1 is usually a bad move, unless the general playing quality of the town is very high. This is because D1 lynches usually don't have enough info to hit scum, meaning that you are risking seriously crippling the town if you mislynch an intelligent player. My policy: always leave smart scum for later in the game, unless everyone in the town is smart.

archaebob, you forget, 12 people working together can be more productive than a single person trying to do everything himself.

As far as me "taking up the reins of the town" goes, it is indeed what I'm doing right now. However, this is not the position I want to be in. If you pay attention, all my direction to other players consists of efforts to convince them to "work together." There are only some ways of "working together" that are helpful though. For most of this game everyone has been talking past each other, taking idiotic stances on things, and moving in what are on the whole entirely uncoordinated directions. Right now I'm insulting people, giving orders, and trying to "control the town" simply to kick everyone in the ass a little and get this town in shape.

And it's working. Slowly, but it's working.

Let me remind everyone:

Walls of text, nicely formatted, along with telling people what to do in a protown attitude =/= being town.

This is true. But it IS much harder to appear town consistently without slipping up while posting the amount of content that I am.

Now, you shouldn't take this as a town tell for me, because I'm pretty fucking awesome at being scum, meaning I'm good enough to post a lot of content and still not slip up that much. [/joke]

However, you really should be more concerned right now with the people who aren't posting much at all. You're resisting the wraith wagon because you haven't seen any actual "scum-tells" in his play, only "anti-town" things. My question to you is this: How do you know that Wraith

wouldn't

drop more scum-tells if he was pressured into posting more? It's easier to avoid mistakes when you post little to no content, and wraith seems like a pretty smart player. This is why lurking or active lurking

in and of itself

must be considered a scum tell by the town.

It is unbelievably easy for the town to be led in circles by scum using this technique. If you want a good example of this- look at Vollkan (Another player on MS). When he is scum, he uses this technique.

It's not that easy. Trust me. Some players are really exceptional at this game, and get away with it. But keeping up an active posting rate and trying to boss the town around is hard as shit to do when you're scum.

I don't care if you vote wraith right now (we're already at L-3), but I think you're being stubborn by only picking targets like Femm and Hrez who not many other people suspect. Do you disagree that focused and coordinated efforts by the town to force everyone into this game will help the town win condition right now?

@ Tasky -

You obviously are in need of a major wake up call.

Nobody is going to answer your stupid question because you haven't given us any reason to think it's worth our time. You aren't bothering to pressure any targets, or engage in any other kind of sustained questioning or scumhunting, so where exactly is the incentive for scum to respond to your inquest? You pose exactly zero threat to scum, and zero relevance to town.

There is a certain amount of spamming true, but not an exorbitant amount. There's still plenty of info to go around right now. AND, precisely

because

there is some noise in this thread, you should be reading

extra-carefully

to glean all the alignment relevant info that there IS. Saying that you are just "basically skimming the posts" because you're finding it difficult to keep up is completely and utterly unacceptable.

And no one is going to make a pretty little summary for you either. Your essentially imposing on us the burden of spending more on this game to do everything for you simply because you can't be bothered to read yourself. This is a ridiculous request.

I'm also not interested in whether you'd "rather not replace out" or not. You are dragging down this town, and will be lynched today if you don't make a change of some king. This hurts your team's win condition regardless of alignment. So shape up or get lost.

[archaebob]

From here on out, I'm going to follow the biggest bandwagon (as long as it's on Wraith, Hrez, Femm, Moose, or Tasky) until something about this game changes. Right now that's wraith. I'm getting sick of trying to be energetically pro-town and getting flack for it from everyone, so I'd love to see other players step up to the plate now.

[archaebob]

unvote

vote moose

Are you paying attention to this game at all? That was L-1.

[archaebob]

Wraith is at L-2 right now. Please nobody else unvote until he gets here. It's really a waste if we split this wagon up now.

Jeez, I really just can't be hands off in this game.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I think it's important for you to really note how different this game is from every other game we've played together.

- I started this game from the beginning. In the other two newbie games we were in that comprise my current town meta, I replaced in after the game started.
- This game has too much headdesk to have an obvious suspect. If you think about Newbie 968 and 983, most of the people there were semi-competent, meaning that I had strong town reads on at least three or four of the players. There were also only nine players total. This means that my scum reads on podium and hinduragi seemed pretty solid to me, even though I formulated them early on. Here, there are many players who I have null reads on because they aren't posting enough, which means I can't just be the self-confident turd I normally am. The better analogy here is that first mini we played, where I spent most my time lurker hunting. And in that game, my first case turned out to be completely wrong. This is my first mini since then, so I'm being more cautious.
- But even forgetting all that, if you don't remember, I left both of those two cases in our last newbies alone for some time after first making them. YOU are the one who actually got hinduragi lynched, and I didn't return to podium until D2.
- I was debating a theory point with nicol. I disagree with his characterization of it being "easy" to play a hyper-active scum meta. I recognize that this theory debate also doubles as a defense of myself, but I've never been shy to defend myself when I've felt it important. I think i've felt it to be more important in this game than usual because I've needed to maximize my town cred so as to influence the game in the ways I feel it's needed to be influenced.
- and finally, regardless of boberz's alignment, he has one of the most active post rates here. He's also not unwilling to cooperate with town bandwagons, answer questions, or make cases himself. Therefore, atm, he's a costly mislynch for D1.

[archaebob]

@ nicol -

I'm sorry that you are beginning to feel apathetic. It is not my intent to suppress your individuality, only to channel towards a common goal that helps town. I do not think a wraith lynch right now is good for town. I would much rather lynch moose.

If Wraith is really having RL problems, then maybe we should give him some time. Moose has no excuse at all.

I don't think a lynch is good right now, but I'd much rather it be on moose.

[archaebob]

He did beat Albert B. Rampage as scum though without NK'ing him.

In my first game ever too.

Seriously though, he was off his game, and I played the newb card pretty hard. In his prime he would have royally burned me, and if you read that game now, you'd be amazed that I managed to get away with all the scumtells I dropped.

I am a powerrole, dont lynch me

No you're not.

Unvote me for a min, if y'all wanna lynch me later fine, but let me make an argument now that I outted myself as a PR

And that's not how this works. We put you to L-1, and then you claim and make your last ditch argument.

[archaebob]

I tend to ascribe to the philosophy that says not to lynch unCC'd PRs D1. Moose's play has been incongruous enough for me that I don't find his story entirely implausible. In either case, I don't think we have a solid enough case on him to risk lynching a tracker. I shouldn't need to explain the disadvantages of this: if he's really a tracker then the scum will probably kill him, meaning we shouldn't waste our lynch. Also, his information could be extremely useful later in game.

unvote

Wraith has pleaded RL, and Femm is being replaced.

That leaves:

Tasky
Hrez

Tasky is my first choice, but whichever wagon is longest is the one I'm on.

vote Tasky

@ nicol -

Like I said, I'm suspicious of Femm as well. Do you think it's wise to lynch a player who's being replaced? I'm not giving you directions, I'm sincerely asking your opinion.

edit after simul:

@ Caelum -

Iso Tasky and tell me what you think.

[archaebob]

Listen whatever i

really

don't fucking care who we wagon. It seemed that nicol and caelum were expressing discontentment with a wraith wagon, and we almost wound up lynching him accidentally. He's at least bothered to claim RL. Tasky has no excuse.

You're right about the credibility of our wagons though, that's my mistake.

unvote

vote wraith

I'm expending way too much energy on this game, and don't intend to come back until tomorrow night. You guys need to pick a course of action and agree on it. I don't care what it is, just agree. And don't lynch an active player.

People who I don't give a fuck about lynching and who I will gladly hammer if they're at L-1 the next time i'm online:

Tasky
Femm
Wraith
Hrez

@ Bober's question:

I'm extremely bored, exhausted, and I generally concur that we're too active. That's why players are dropping off. I think all of the above players are interchangeable, and i'm happy to lynch any of them.

[archaebob]

confirm vote wraith

Despite my strong suspicion toward Hrescz, I'm strongly tempted to switch my vote to Moose.

I want everyone's opinion on Wraith right now.

Sweet dreams everyone. And prepare for a major can of whoop ass tomorrow on some deliciously succulent obvscum.

[archaebob]

And the above is only a small fraction of the gold coinage our good friend Wraith just bought for us.

[archaebob]

confirm confirm vote: wraith

HoS: Foilist

HoS: Furcolow

I guess that's a wrap.

I may or may not have time to post today, but I'll try to get something down this afternoon. I can't even begin to

describe

to you how happy I am to see scum blundering like this at the very end of what was almost a perfect day for them.

Just lay back and don't lynch Wraith yet, I have quite a fair amount to say.

[archaebob]

Alright, I have little more time than I thought I did, so I'll give you a preview.

Wraith, Foilist, Furcolow are Scum!! [abridged version]

- Wraith is scum for dropping the most consistent scumtell of all my mafia experience. This post:

Further reading has set my scumdar on fire with Moose. He scrambled for excuses from the end of page 14 into page 15. First he asks for help, then he parrots arhcaebob saying there's too much smoke to find scum, then he says he's a powerrole, then he says he's not actually claiming.

Despite my strong suspicion toward Hrescz, I'm strongly tempted to switch my vote to Moose.

Pure. Scum.

Town don't talk about what they are "strongly tempted to do." They just do things.

Now this obviously isn't a categorical truth, and it'd be easy for someone to find examples of town players saying things that seem out of context to be of a similar tone as to what I have italicized above. There is no such thing as an objective, 100% accurate scumtell. However, taken in context, the last sentence of this post all but confirms wraith as scum. This is because

given wraith's apparent intelligence, coherency of thought, and general willingness to be combative

, there is no explanation for him weaving in and foreshadowing his suspicions ahead of time in such a contrived manner as he did above. What he has done is overwhelmingly what intelligent and talented scum players do while inexperienced: he fabricated a series of suspicions against another player, and is

now attempting to inject them into the thread step by step so as to simulate a gradual progression of thought.

I'll explain this more in depth later. For now, just really read the above quote and see if it makes more sense with your gut coming from town or scum. Pay close attention to how his declaration of suspicion and "temptation to vote for moose" without

really

doing anything keeps his options open in any direction he wants.

- Foilist is scum for an obvious bus of wraith using fail logic that he can't possibly believe in, and for trying to set up a chain lynch of furcolow (he would never do this as town).

This phrase implies the case has zero merit. There is no question of semantics here, or taking english too literally. You contradicted yourself in the same post. The contradiction allows you to choose a position and justifiably on either side of the wagon. That is beneficial to scum and pointless for town. That makes it a scum tell.

Secondly, you chose to explain it already in a patently false way. That means you know it's a scum tell and were trying to distance yourself from it. That means any new explanation is also a lie or else you would have said it in the first place.

This whole point is utter manipulative bullshit because of foil's experience in this game. More on this later, but for now I suggest you just read all of D2.

There's a number of other reasons why foilist simply isn't town in this game that I'll get to later on.

- Furcolow is scum because of his shifting attitude towards Wraith, and because foilist's jump onto furcolow is much more plausibly a second bus then an attempt at mislynch.

Foilist is completely right about furcolow being scum for the reasons he outlined in this post:

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

The reason that this confirms BOTH foilist AND furcolow is because

foil would never try to set up a chain lynch for the next day as town.

Foilist foreshadowing his case for the next day is as scummy as what I just finished saying about wraith, and the fact that he did this indicates a number of things, the most glaring that:

*

Foilist is NOT worried about being NKd.

In my past games with foilist, both he and I have been careful not to let the scum know we suspect them before going after them with our full cases so as to avoid being NKd. Newbie 983 is a perfect example of this, where he breadcrumbed his suspicion of Switz, and pretended to suspect someone else entirely. I did precisely the same thing in the game we played before that, Newbie 968. In both cases, those ploys worked to our advantage. Therefore, there is

no explanation

for him doing what he is doing now besides his lack of concern for being NKd in this specific game.

Also, we've discussed ad nauseam how Furcolow is a VI and should be vigged. Unless he is still around tomorrow, entirely unvigged, it is a waste of time to discuss this. Up to this point, foilist seems to have agreed with this sentiment, and he is more than smart enough to understand why it's a good idea. If he was town who thought furcolow might be scum, he would have ESPECIALLY no reason to reveal his suspicions, since he would be attracting the NK for a player who might very likely be vigged anyway.

For the above reasons, I interpret foilist's actions as a profound bussing maneuver, with the goal of establishing enormous town cred. The more you read foilist in the past games we've played, the more you'll notice how incongruous his play is in this game.

More later if needed.

[archaebob]

Yes. He absolutely would. Especially in this game.

[archaebob]

@ wraith -

You aren't weaseling your way out of this. And I think it's a little selfish to turn on foilist, when he has a better chance of winning a marathon victory than you do. Even if foilist gets lynched today and you NK me, you'll still be dangling by your neck tomorrow.

The only one I'm even a little bit unsure about right now is furc, simply because I'm not sure how much I can take his shift in attitude as an absolute tell, given who we're talking about.

Hrecz is now confirmed town because you were trying to get him lynched, and I don't at all doubt moose's claim at this point. Nicol and Caelum are so completely town it's not even funny. So that leaves Furc, Tasky, and Femm.

Who's your other partner Wraith? Is it Furc, Tasky, or Femm? This is annoying as hell, because the first two are VIs, and the last one is getting replaced. Seriously why don't you just tell me? We can put your whole team out of its misery sooner.

Anyways, I'll respond more in depth to your "defense" when I sit down and make the unabridged version of my case tomorrow.

Peace.

[archaebob]

Before I rip this to shreds, I want to give everyone a chance to comment and catch up.

If I'm a dead man I'm going down firing.

War.

In my opinion, this post from wraith is essentially conceding everything I've said to be true.

Oh and one small thing:

This whole point is utter manipulative bullshit because of foil's experience in this game. More on this later, but for now I suggest you just read all of D2.

In case anyone gets fooled by foilist's clever editing, he didn't actually respond to this point. He just sort of glossed over it by lumping it together with another post and responding only to the second one.

simul edit:

And oh jeez, that's a real bitch move from wraith there. I give you props man, when you say "go down firing" you really mean it.

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

Please signify with a post when you are ready for the war of WoTs to begin. Because I'm gonna drown these scumbags in words in a sec, and I don't want to leave anyone behind.

[archaebob]

oh and NOBODY VOTE WRAITH. He'll self hammer and then all will be lost.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

That was some pretty rough analysis there dude. When you make sarcastic condescending posts, you have to at least be right (like when

I

make sarcastic condescending posts). You completely and utterly have no idea what my point was with that link. Like for reals, I'm going to discredit you with your first game on the site? Hahahaha you wish. That'd make it a pretty easy point to discredit, wouldn't it?

Don't sweat it dude, I'm going to explain my point when I have time. You seem a little flustered though...I think you might want to sit down. I mean, jeez, I really hope I haven't offended you or anything with all of this turning against you.

[archaebob]

If that wasn't your intention with the link, then I don't have any idea what it might be. It looks to me like you're going to try and show how I twisted logic in that game and try and show that that's what I'm doing in this game.

Dude, you're being idiotic. Why are you being idiotic?

How would it make ANY sense for me to compare your play in that game to your play in this game if I was scum. You were cop in Newbie 846!! What would be the point exactly?

And the way you're overreacting to that link before I even made my main point with it is just really stellar.

The reason I know you're scum is because you chose to extend it to me. As town you would never do that. You would hold your suspicion and see how I behaved on the Wraith wagon then come in with your epic post on D2 in order to avoid the NK.

That's true, normally I would do that. However, this game is different because I've known from early on that I was probably going to be NKd anyways. I've figured strongly at the top of most people's town lists, I've been one of the most influential and active scumhunters for the entire day. What all this means is that I needed to get my reads out TODAY, the same as I did in Mini 873 when I thought I was in the same position.

But the real beauty of this situation is that I know you won't NK me because it would permanently destroy your house of cards. You know that I'm going to flip town, and when I do, it'll be the end of you. There's no way in hell we're both town, and everyone here knows that. In fact, this is so perfect I could even self-vote and let you lynch me today. No matter what you do, you're going to lose this game.

@ everyone -

I feel like we're losing your interest and investment in the game. This saddens me. I'd like to take a poll:

Who here thinks it's remotely possible that BOTH foilist and I town, and that we're BOTH wrongly accusing each other?

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

Everyone pay attention to how furcolow has given away everything in the last few pages:

This is something we can use.

Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence

, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

This is the quote from foil I've already mentioned as trying to set up a chain lynch.

I'm going to make one quick point about this before I continue-

It has come up that I'm being hypocritical by accusing foilist of trying to set up a chain lynch, when that's something I'm doing myself. However, there is a key difference between what I've done and what he's done.

What foilist posted was the above. In here, he very weakly tries to connect two players by saying that we should "take a serious second look at Furcolow" if Wraith flips scum. This is scummy to me because he is making his suspicions known without really doing anything about them. That is unlike him. All he has accomplished with this post is to let the scum know that he sorta suspects Furcolow, thereby increasing his chances of being NKd without really doing anything to help town. Especially since Furcolow has been pegged for a vig kill, and is the generally agreed upon policy lynch for tomorrow in the event that he's still alive, I see no justification for this utterly soft declaration of suspicion.

What

I

did is completely different:

confirm confirm vote: wraith
HoS: Foilist
HoS: Furcolow

There is no subtle manipulation of town suspicion here. I very blatantly declare exactly who I believe the scum are, which is a very risky route to take as town OR scum, because it polarizes the town and makes it very likely that people who already suspect me will have their suspicions increased. Keep in mind that this is

after

foilist's quote from above, so I was already convinced that foilist was scum at this point. As such, I was no longer worried about the NK for reasons I explain in this post. Foilist has no such extenuating circumstances.

Foilist doesn't have a history of gently letting the scum know he's on to them, but I DO have a pretty solid history of screaming at the top of my lungs when I think a game is solved. It's because I'm an arrogant bastard.

Anyways, on to why furcolow has completely made my case for me.

More intelligent than you, obviously.

This is furcolow's response to foilist's quote from above. I have italicized the section this seems to be in response to.

Perfect example of how he behaves towards all other players.

Mhmm.

I see what you did there

AND...well...boom goes...the fucking dynamite .

Read the above quote. Then read the first quote in this post (from foilist). Then read this one again.

People, furcolow and foilist are scumpartners, and they are

blatantly talking to each other

. Furcolow obviously takes umbrage at foilist's decision to bus him, and is stupidly and carelessly stabbing back to let him know. Read it again. Does it sound like scum talking to a town player? No. It definitely doesn't.

The fact that furcolow has slipped up this way perfectly fits the model we have for how he thinks. He is imperceptive enough to make a comment like this without realizing how much it would reveal,

and he is immature enough to take personal umbrage at the strategic decision of his scum partner to bus him

.

That's why this makes sense, and that's why it's the only way it makes sense.

Now let's compare the above to the way he addresses me:

Well, Archaebob, you are honestly wrong about me. There is no way I would be on

foilist's team

unless I was apart of the uninformed majority.

Lol. Just lol.

--

Now the one thing which is true about all of this is that it is wifom, and this is no doubt what foilist will try to argue. For example, it is indeed

possible

that furcolow wrote all those slip ups precisely because he knew it would help me, archaebob, his

real

scumbuddy, make a case against foilist and get him mislynched. It is therefore

possible

that he wrote this:

I see what you did there

as a really clever ploy to make it

seem

like he was reacting poorly to being bussed, and was making a little comment to his scumbuddy. That would be a really clever strategy, and the fact that it's

possible

means that my whole argument is ultimately wifom.

However, I think most of you will have to agree that the scenario I just described is not very likely. Furcolow simply is not that smart, or that cunning, and for all of this to have fallen into place the way it did would require him to

seamlessly

cooperate with me as soon as he realized my intention to bus him and make exactly the posts he needed to make in exactly the way he made them so that I'd have the material I needed to get foilist lynched tomorrow.

Wait. One problem.

I see what you did there

This happened

before

I said this:

confirm confirm vote: wraith
HoS: Foilist
HoS: Furcolow

...meaning he would have had no idea I intended to bus him at all.

Conclusion:

Furcolow and foilist are 100% likely to be scum together. Period.

[archaebob]

Are you sure it's not the realization of how much the three of you are all going to fucking die?

[archaebob]

Hey I have an idea!! What if we

don't

lynch furcolow tomorrow, and lynch you instead? That way there's no chance I'll get away with all my "enormous town cred" from bussing my other two partners!!

And then if I'm wrong, you'll have proved your point the best way you possibly could!! And since I

know

I'm going to be wrong (since I'm scum, of course), I can't exactly go through with lynching you, cause then

my

house of cards will fall apart.

Let's seriously think about this:

-If I'm scum, and I'm trying to bus my two partners in this super calculated move to get town cred, then that means wraith and furcolow are already outed.
-

I'm

trying to show that YOU are scum, and that the above is what YOU are trying to do.
- It's not very likely that BOTH of us are scum, because that would require either wraith or furcolow to be

town

. Which would mean that

both

of the theories against us would fall apart.
- It's also not very likely that both of us are town, because we've both played with each other ALOT, and it seems implausible that we could both be so completely wrong about each other.
- That means that ONE of us is probably town, and ONE of us is probably scum. And since both wraith and furcolow are already outed (because either

you're

bussing them, or because

I

am), that means this game is basically a definite win for town. All that has to happen is for both of us to be lynched.

And I'm more than happy to go first. In fact,

if three people or more unvote and vote me right now

, I will gladly self-vote and be the D1 lynch. Because I know you are scum foilist, and I know that you also now this. So you can't lynch me, because when I flip town, everyone else will know it too. And you can't say any of the stuff that I just said and self-vote yourself, because if you die in this game now, you will

definitely

lose. The only thing you can do is continue bussing wraith, and hope that something incredible happens.

It won't. You are going to fucking die, and even if I go first, this game will be a town victory.

And there's nothing at all that you can do about it.

[archaebob]

@ moose -

Only for noobs. And these are special circumstances. I'd never risk the game like this if I wasn't totally positive. I'm just in the unique position of having caught a scum who has been in almost 70% of my games.

Do you at least agree that one of us is almost definitely scum? I wouldn't actually self-vote unless I knew for a fact that my dying and flipping town would guarantee a foilist lynch the next day.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Listen, this is going to look bad, but reading back now, I think I got cocky and wrote something a little reckless.

Do you

promise

that if I flip town, you'll lynch foilist tomorrow? I'm really not bluffing about what I said, but it's only worth my while if I know you hit you'll win this game easily after I'm gone.

I'm more than happy to exchange my life for foil's, and if you guys promise that this will be the bargain, then by all means lynch me today. I'm a little anxious to be lynched before the replacements have had a say though, since I don't have any idea where they stand on this. I'm volunteering to self-vote as a strategical maneuver to prove that foilist is scum, not because I'm supremely confident that town will win no matter what happens.

I think I'd probably rather still lynch wraith today. This will give me time to make my final cases against foilist (the link I posted, why his case against me is bullshit, etc). If I'm still alive D2, I won't object to being lynched if you all are otherwise convinced that foilist is scum, and will kill off him and furcolow upon seeing my town flip. If I'm

not

alive D2, well, then I'll be flipping town anyways and proving my point just as well, so I might as well just be NKd. I seriously doubt this will happen though, because of reasons I've already mentioned.

Is that a deal?

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Listen man, whatever. As long you actually promise to kill foilist after my flip, I don't have a problem. I just think it's in your interest to wait for a bit and make sure that everyone else is on board with that strategy though: when I flip town, foilist is going to try and twist this to make it seem like I was just being paranoid and you shouldn't believe anything I was trying to say. I need to know that you guys won't fall for it before I actually self-hammer.

The two scenarios in which I will gladly roll over and die:

1) I will selfvote today if

everyone

who I believe to be town in this game promises

right now

that they will without any hesitation lynch foilist after my flip (assuming I flip town, of course). If I am convinced that my mislynch on D1 will guarantee the lynching of Foilist, Wraith, and Furcolow on days 2-4, then I have every reason in the world to sacrifice myself today. I think the biggest obstacle right now to the lot of you seeing foilist for the scumbag that he is the fact that I'm still alive, so he can use me as a target and simply parrot the arguments that I've been making against him (which is really the only thing he's done). I recognize that my absolute certainty seems scummy; town are supposed to be ignorant of the roles, and my declarations of being 100% sure about all three scum on D1 seem unrealistic. Usually, they would be. I don't know what else to say except that I'm actually that sure this time. And if you will all believe me once you know I'm really town, then I'm wiling to confirm myself by being mislynched.

2)

My ideal scenario

:

We lynch Wraith today, and Furcolow gets vigged. If either one of those two flip town, then I'm completely wrong about everything, I'm so sorry, I'm just an idiot town player, and you don't have to waste a mislynch on me or foilist (or you can just mislynch me, instead of both of us).

However, if I'm

right

, and we have two scum dead by the start of the day tomorrow, then I'll be happy to die before foilist if everybody else at that point agrees that there must be scum in either me or him. If I'm scum, then this will essentially be committing suicide. And if I'm town, then you'll have obvscum in foilist to happily get rid of the very next day. There is no scenario at all in which I'll win if I'm scum.

That's basically how I'm looking at this game right now: wraith and furcolow are obvscum, and there is definitely a scum between foilist and myself. If the rest of the town believes all of that, then I don't at all mind being the first of the four to die. I need to be able to trust that you guys will follow through though. Foilist is very good at arguing, and will seem very convincing, which is why I'm somewhat more inclined to lynch wraith today and duke it out a little more with foil tomorrow, so that I can make all the points I need to make. I'm working on a massive post right now that will explain what I was saying with my link from earlier. Additionally, this will give the replacements time to catch up during the night before we make a game changing gambit with my life.

So let's either wait for the replacements, or lynch wraith.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

It's obvious that you think we might both be scum. I'm not even going to bother trying to deny this, because it honestly helps me for you to think that. If you lynch both of us, town will win. I've spent much of the last two pages trying to

convince

everyone that one of us has to be scum, so you should really just lynch both of us. I don't think it's very likely from your perspective, simply because that would require either furcolow or wraith to be town. If this was some big master plan between foilist and archaebob to bus each other out, knowing that whoever won would get town cred, then it would kind of ruin our plan if either furcolow or wraith flipped town on us. Though again, there's a lot of things we could have thought of to deal with that situation, so it's not that strong a defense.

In fact, I'm going to make your theory even stronger! Foilist did

precisely

what you are currently theorizing in this game. His scum partner was esuriospiritus (they bussed eachother out BIG TIME), who just replaced in to this game herself actually, so she can probably give you an expert opinion on how likely it is to be the situation here.

AND, since I've also seen and read that game, it makes it perfectly plausible that foilist and I planned before the start of this game to go on a wild bus rampage if we felt like it. And why wouldn't we? It worked so well when foilist and esurio did it in Newbie 977!

That would explain why I'm so sure about the roles, and why he is too. It would also explain why we are both going after each other so aggressively, with seemingly perfect information. I think boberz might have just figured it out!

So...why don't you guys just lynch both of us? Like literally one after the other.

Just lynch wraith first (since he's obviously the third wing that we're selfishly sacrificing for our plan).

Oh, and when I flip town, remember how I proved that furcolow is the third scum back on D1.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

Ooh, started lying now have we?

DO NOT TRUST HIS "I'LL ALLOW MYSELF TO BE LYNCHED DEAL!!! He has made deals like this before and NOT followed through on them. It's going to take me a while to dig out the game this was in because I don't remember and it was more than a year ago I believe. However, offering to be lynched in order to prove a point is a common play for him and he has never been lynched as a result of it. We have a silver tongued scumster sitting here who will set all this up, lynch two of his scumbuddies, get my lynch through, and STILL gain massive town cred. Make no mistake that's something he would try and do. He's probably trying to get a scummy or something right now.

This is falsifiably untrue. I have never made a deal like this, ever.

Wait...unless he's talking about this post.

Yeah, this is from my most embarrassing town game (my second game as town ever). I thought I knew who the scum was, and was wrong, and said a lot of stupid shit like that I'd happily be quicklynched the next day if I was wrong. Good times.

A few interesting points though:

-In that game, I was

town

.
-In that game, I didn't "not follow through on my deal." I was simply lynched shortly after making my dumb-ass proposition.

Unless foilist has some other example which I have truly forgotten about, I'm pretty sure he's now just latching onto absolutely anything he can find to discredit me. Including repeated references to one of my first games as town

ever

, something which he recently got really flustered about when he thought I was trying to do the same thing.

If foilist were actually town, and saw me posting everything that I'm posting, he wouldn't think I was

scum

. He would think I was just paranoid, had gone off the deep end, and was just going to embarrass myself again. He has experience with me doing that: I mislynched him in Newbie 846 (my first game as town, and his first game ever), and I came damn close in Mini 873 (the only game in my entire career where I was completely wrong about the scum). Instead of trying to convince me that I'm wrong, he has instead come after me with every possible twisting of my words and attempt at discredit that he can find.

Go back to the top of pg. 17 and really reread the last few pages. Foilist isn't town who thinks he has caught scum. He's scum who needs to destroy a target. OR, we're both scum just pulling a big sham to get one of us enormous town cred.

And I really think you guys just ought to lynch us both.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Oh and I never said that "boberz will be a mislynch." If you go back and reread the post, I made that comment in the context of talking about why I generally don't like lynching active players D1.

If

you would be a mislynch,

then

it would be more costly to lynch you than to mislynch a player like Tasky. That was the reasoning I gave for preferring other candidates at the time.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Also, the point of my question (who thinks we might BOTH be town) was to see if the gambit I decided to pull shortly after (offering to self-vote) would work. The poll turned out to be useless, but I decided to go with the gambit anyways (in retrospect, maybe a little hastily, as I've said).

And if furcolow wasn't talking to foilist, then who the hell do YOU think he was talking to? There's no address on the post, and foilist is the one he was conversing with just before. He sure as hell wasn't talking to ME, because I hadn't even done my whole "WHAM caught all three of you" post yet.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

It's not that you are a costly lynch "regardless of alignment." if you are scum, it is not costly to lynch you, ever.

The argument that I was making has to do with environments. In games where the environment is dominated by incoherent players and lurkers (like this one), it would be

more costly

to lynch an active player than it would be to

mislynch a less active player

. I am assuming the worst possible scenario (that we will mislynch), and making a strategic decision based on that. Since mislynches are usually what happen on D1 because of the amount of players and the lack of information, I consider it a good strategic rule of thumb to avoid going after active players early in the game,

because they make costly mislynches

.

Do you understand now?

[quote="my interpretation]In the most important, game changing period I pulled a gambit, it didnt work, so I did what I was going to do anyway. I then expect everyone else to just accept that my gambit was just a failed gambit and we should therefore go back to lynch wraith (Plan A).

Obviously I brought in other posts to make this interpretation. Is this fair abob?[/quote][/quote]

This isn't fair only because my gambit hasn't "not worked."

A FAIR interpretation:

I decided that it might be a good idea to pull a gambit. Before though, I wanted to make sure it would work. I asked a question to accomplish this, and it didn't give me any info one way or another. But because I'm a cocky arrogant bastard who

really

wanted to show everyone how awesome he is by pulling some kind of crazy gambit, I decided "to hell with it", and leapt off the bridge anyways. Waking up somewhat more sober the next day, I reviewed what I wrote and thought "shit, that was a little reckless." Now, I'm trying to explain that my gambit really is a good idea,

and should be followed

, while at the same time expressing some perfectly reasonable anxiety about whether or not it will work (if you lynch me and DON'T lynch foilist, then I will have just thrown the game for nothing). So, I'm now flip-flopping somewhat and trying to keep the

original

option of just lynching wraith open.

Luckily, it seems like the gambit

is

working, since foilist clearly has no idea what to do with it, and has just lied about my past history in a desperate effort to convince you that you shouldn't trust me.

Finally it is all meta and I am finding it hard to assess meta whe I wasnt in the games.

[/quote]

Don't worry about the meta. I haven't even made the crux of my meta argument yet (with that link...it should be coming soon). Just read the exchange between foilist and furcolow and try to come up with a scenario that explains it in which they aren't both scum.

[archaebob]

DAMMIT.

EBWODP:

In the most important, game changing period I pulled a gambit, it didnt work, so I did what I was going to do anyway. I then expect everyone else to just accept that my gambit was just a failed gambit and we should therefore go back to lynch wraith (Plan A).

Obviously I brought in other posts to make this interpretation. Is this fair abob?

This isn't fair only because my gambit hasn't "not worked."

A FAIR interpretation:

I decided that it might be a good idea to pull a gambit. Before though, I wanted to make sure it would work. I asked a question to accomplish this, and it didn't give me any info one way or another. But because I'm a cocky arrogant bastard who

really

wanted to show everyone how awesome he is by pulling some kind of crazy gambit, I decided "to hell with it", and leapt off the bridge anyways. Waking up somewhat more sober the next day, I reviewed what I wrote and thought "shit, that was a little reckless." Now, I'm trying to explain that my gambit really is a good idea,

and should be followed

, while at the same time expressing some perfectly reasonable anxiety about whether or not it will work (if you lynch me and DON'T lynch foilist, then I will have just thrown the game for nothing). So, I'm now flip-flopping somewhat and trying to keep the

original

option of just lynching wraith open.

Luckily, it seems like the gambit

is

working, since foilist clearly has no idea what to do with it, and has just lied about my past history in a desperate effort to convince you that you shouldn't trust me.

Finally it is all meta and I am finding it hard to assess meta whe I wasnt in the games.

Don't worry about the meta. I haven't even made the crux of my meta argument yet (with that link...it should be coming soon). Just read the exchange between foilist and furcolow and try to come up with a scenario that explains it in which they aren't both scum.

[archaebob]

@ Boberz -

Pay attention to what you are saying.

If Foil scum and not abob:
We lynch wraith and fur => find two scum. We lynch abob see town. Lynch foil scum town win.
We lynch abob now => See he is town. Get rid of foil wraith and fur. town win.

If abob scum and not foil:
We lynch wraith and fur => find two scum. We lynch abob, we have a perfect game (maybe even better if a vig gets fur). town win.
We lynch abob => kill wraith and fur. town win.

The only reason this works is because of the things

I

have done in this game. Foilist has done nothing to contribute to this.

I

categorically declared foilist to be scum while he was still softly foreshadowing suspicion on me.

I

am the one who has made all of the arguments that we can't both be town. And

I

am the one who is now offering to be lynched in order to guarantee a victory for town.

The simple answer, Boberz, is that foilist isn't as good at this game as he thinks he is. OR he hastily miscalculated and blundered when he saw that I had nailed him with my "WHAM caught all three of you" post.

Can you explain why it's not possible that I'm town and that he's scum? I've really fucked it up if I'm scum with all of my play, but I don't see why HE has. Maybe I'm actually just a townie who believes he is completely right, and he's just a very good scum scrambling to get rid of me. HE hasn't done anything to assure his own loss (besides be stupid in his attacks against me).

Anyways...I don't care if you don't think it's just one of us. But you CANNOT possibly think we are both town. Look at this thread. Both of us are accusing each other with near certainty. How can two players at our level of play who have played together as often as we have BOTH be town, and BOTH be so single-mindedly and completely wrong about each other?

If you lynch me and I'm town, you still HAVE to lynch foilist. That's really important, and if you don't agree with this, then there is no way in hell I'm agreeing to being killed today.

[archaebob]

I do not think you are both town. You two need to apologise to the whole of town if you are after the game.

You are very right. And I would never, EVER do this if I thought there was any chance of my being wrong.

History lesson:

The one game that foilist keeps linking to in an effort to discredit me is Mini 873. In this game, I was town, and I became convinced in much the same manner as I am now that I had caught all three scum D1. I was completely wrong about all three, and after loudly proclaiming my absolute certainty, I was mislynched on D2.

You have to imagine what this felt like for me. I was as arrogantly self-righteous as I have been in this game, except at the end of the day I was completely wrong. How embarrassing could a game possibly be for someone? I'll just leave it with saying it was a deeply harrowing experience.

Since then, I've toned it down a lot. It is mostly because of Mini 873 (and let me remind you all AGAIN that this was my second game as town ever, and my first non-newbie game) that I changed up my meta a lot, going for a more direct, less boisterously arrogant approach.

And I was never completely wrong about scum again.

(I made one really bad mistake in 968 where I changed my mind at the last second in lylo and mislynched the cop. He was pulling a stupid gambit that I misinterpreted though, and my gut read had been right on both scum.)

There is no way he is that certain about me, Wraith, or Furcolow if he's town. Archaebob invariably questions himself and declares epic rereads every so often. He is not doing that here.

...he's actually telling the truth.

And it's another reason you should believe me when I say that I would

never pull a stunt like this as town unless I was absolutely 100% confident in my read on the game

. There is no way I would risk this kind of embarrassment again unless I was totally positive.

Or unless I was scum. Which I might be. But I have a perfect record as scum, and I've never done anything like this before. Foilist HAS. He's bussed out his scumpartner deliberately and been rewarded with absolute victory (I know how wifom this is. Really, I do. This isn't part of my argument, it's just food for thought).

[archaebob]

EBWOP (lol):

There is no way he is that certain about me, Wraith, or Furcolow if he's town. Archaebob invariably questions himself and declares epic rereads every so often. He is not doing that here.

HE'S NOT RIGHT ABOUT THE FIRST SENTENCE.

Just the last two, lol.

[archaebob]

What if this whole is just a massive gambit by BOTH ABob and foilist to bus one or the other and the other gains town cred? O_o

Yeah, you're way behind, I've already said that this probably true. It basically proves your scum though, because otherwise there's no reason we'd both want to lynch you

first

.

Speaking of which, I think we should be getting ready to end the day about now. Can two people please come over here and hammer this scumbitch?

So basically we've both somehow broken the game beyond repair. Either of us as scum has royally fucked up, and if we're both town then we've royally fucked up. So in every case one of us has royally fucked up. That's nice.

Archaebob's "lynch these people" deal may not include all the scum, even if he's town. Think for a second. If he's wrong and you follow his advice after he's dead, the scum win. Period.

Yeah ok whatever. I'm positive that you and furcolow are scum because of that conversation I've quoted, and I'm postive that wraith is scum because you were trying to bus him + what I was saying about him earlier + what YOU were saying about wraith and furcolow. You outed your partners for me.

If people are honestly worried about my being wrong even if I am town, then they just shouldn't take my offer.

I'm not willing to risk that same situation BECAUSE UNLIKE HIM I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ROLES ARE.

First of all, stop yelling. You sound angry.

Second of all, you keep repeating this point. Let's think about this:

If I'm scum, then I

know what all the roles are

. According to you, that means I already know

for sure

that you are town. What the fuck am I doing then screaming at the top of my lungs that I

know

you're scum? If I mislynch you, that destroys my position. There is no way I am both town and also this wrong about you, so by you flipping town, I become confirmed scum. So I

can't

mislynch you if I'm actually scum. Except here I am offering to trade my life for yours, while you sit there flip-flopping and contradicting yourself about how sure you are that I'm scum.

Let's look at a few quotes:

Archaebob's attack on Wraith is a bus. Pure and simple.

I have the unique position here of knowing you very well. I can tell that you're scum.

The reason I

know

you're scum is because you chose to extend it to me. As town you would

never

do that.

Arcahebob has revealed for certain that Furcolow is in fact

his

scumpartner.

You seem pretty confident in your reads here. Hell, it's almost like you somehow "know for sure" that I'm scum!

And yet you sit there idly and do nothing, inventing things out of thin air do discredit me with:

DO NOT TRUST HIS "I'LL ALLOW MYSELF TO BE LYNCHED DEAL!!!

He has made deals like this before and NOT followed through on them. It's going to take me a while to dig out the game this was in because I don't remember and it was more than a year ago I believe. However, offering to be lynched in order to prove a point is a common play for him and he has never been lynched as a result of it.

We have a silver tongued scumster sitting here who will set all this up, lynch two of his scumbuddies, get my lynch through, and STILL gain massive town cred. Make no mistake that's something he would try and do.

The italicized is all completely and utterly false. Completed games are in my wiki, you guys can check for yourself. And again, you seem pretty positive that I'm scum here.

So foilist...

if you think I'm scum...

...then VOTE ME. Fucking vote me. Call me on my bluff and get me lynched. Get off your scared shitless ass and vote this so called "silver tongued" scumster who plans to bus out his own partners and get enormous town cred.

You have no problem using strong language that seem to imply absolute certainty, but you have a hell of problem backing up that language with your actions. I've been completely consistent with my opinion: I believe,

100%

, that you, Wraith, and Furcolow are scum, and I'm currently voting Wraith because his wagon is the biggest.

Based on everything you've said, you're a hell of a lot more sure about your read on ME then you are of your read on Wraith. So what the hell are you doing?

That means he isn't reading so much as trying to convince all of you.

That's right, you miserable swine. I know you're scum, so my priority is convincing other people now, not answering your questions. When answering your questions helps me convince the town, I will do so. Otherwise I have little incentive to, as I'm certainly not out to convince you.

[archaebob]

Why don't YOU vote me? You've pointed out numerous times how much stronger your read is than mine, so the point applies doubly to you.

um...are you paying attention?

I've been completely consistent with my opinion: I believe, 100%, that you, Wraith, and Furcolow are scum, and I'm currently voting Wraith because his wagon is the biggest.

You are all interchangeable to me.

If you flip town we'll both be completely wrong and we'll have wasted the entire day of discussion. A key feature of Archaebob's "plan" is that there will be little to no discussion on the follow days. If he's engineered this so that one of his scumbuddies escapes, there will be almost no way of finding them. It'll be like starting with D1 being lylo.

You continue to say stuff like this.

And yet you are still voting me instead of wraith.

Irony alert. If I'm scum, a lynch on me would prove nothing. Both are claiming that I am a scum partner being bussed by the other, and both theories are equally plausible. If I flip scum, neither is 100% certainly right about each other.

I wonder how much of a wrench will be thrown into whoever's the scum's plans when I flip town.

Yeah. You're right, it'd be a pretty big wrench. Maybe you should self-vote as a last ditch effort to save the town.

[archaebob]

And yet you are still voting me instead of wraith.

Strike that. Reverse it.

Why aren't you voting me foilist? If you're so worried about all of this, then you really should make sure it doesn't happen and take my offer to die today.

[archaebob]

@ Foilist -

Any reason you're backing off of Wraith? We can't rely on a vig to hit him either.

This is total bullshit. You have said several times that Furcolow is scum based on his conversation with me, which means I have to be scum as a prerequisite of him being scum. Therefore we are not all interchangeable. That was a scumslip.

You know Furcolow is scum so if he gets lynched it works out all the same for you. You forgot what your previous argument had been and carelessly said we were all interchangeable. That is a CLASSIC scumslip if I ever saw one.

You're still being idiotic. Why do you insist on this course of action?

You are all three

interchangeable

, you understand? The fact that furcolow was talking to you doesn't make you being scum contingent upon his flip anymore than it would vice versa. It confirms both of you as scum. And since you're confirmed scum, all it takes is some light application of what I know about you to realize that you were almost definitely bussing Wraith.

unvote, vote: Furcolow

If I remember correctly, you're case on Furcolow was entirely predicated on Wraith being scum.

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith.

If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

Remember this?

So if this is true...

Because unlike you I don't know the roles. I truly believe you are scum. But my belief is based in large part on Furcolow and Wraith being scum. That means I have to lynch them first.

Then you should really be voting wraith, right?

Why are you voting furcolow exactly?

@ everyone -

For some reason, foilist just can't bring himself to vote me. And it's like I said...he can't. My flip would end it all for him. So instead, he's doing exactly what I said he would do. He is continuing to bus out his two partners, who he knows will flip scum. Except now he's really screwed it up, because he's just voted his second partner without any real for leaving his first alone. What else can I say? Foilist, Wraith, and Furcolow are scum, and none of them have any clue what to do in this situation anymore.

It's time to lynch wraith.

@ moose -

I'll summarize for you if I have time. Mostly, just read the bottom few posts of page 17, and then the top of page 18. That's where I become completely positive that Foilist and Furcolow are scum together, and that foilist was trying to bus Wraith follows from that conclusion.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

Also, are you going to admit to fabricating bullshit about my past to discredit me or what? You get all up on my case for "conveniently ignoring questions", but yet don't seem to mind dropping a particular line of discussion when it suits your purpose.

DO NOT TRUST HIS "I'LL ALLOW MYSELF TO BE LYNCHED DEAL!!! He has made deals like this before and NOT followed through on them. It's going to take me a while to dig out the game this was in because I don't remember and it was more than a year ago I believe. However, offering to be lynched in order to prove a point is a common play for him and he has never been lynched as a result of it.

This was all a deliberate lie. Be a man and admit it. Otherwise, the town won't just know after this game that you were scum and you lost...they'll also think that you tried to

lie

to them in order to win.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

Everything you've just said applies to you as well, which makes it null at best.

Also, if you believe that I've suspected you and wraith from the beginning, then that kinda puts a little dent in this:

@Archaebob: I have the unique position here of knowing you very well. I can tell that you're scum. This realization was brought on first by your erratic behavior, but solidified by your abbreviated case on Wraith, myself, and to a lesser extent Furcolow.

If that wasn't your intention with the link, then I don't have any idea what it might be. It looks to me like you're going to try and show how I twisted logic in that game and try and show that that's what I'm doing in this game.

The next thing that tips me off is Wraith.

You only went after Wraith after I said a few times I had a scum read on him. You know that I label everyone as town or scum early in the game and proceed with that assumption until something significant changes my mind. That means you knew I had your scum partner pinged. The best play for you, and the one you would definitely make, would be to bus out that partner to gain the town cred. That's what you would do as town as well. The reason I know you're scum is because you chose to extend it to me. As town you would never do that. You would hold your suspicion and see how I behaved on the Wraith wagon then come in with your epic post on D2 in order to avoid the NK.

Did I suspect Wraith before your case, or didn't I? It seems like here you're saying that I didn't, but you just spent your whole last post trying to prove that I did.

And I mean for real, that whole last post was weaksauce trash and you know it. Of course I foreshadowed my suspicions in the early pages of D1. I was probing. I've done that in every game ever. Foreshadowing a suspicion isn't in and of itself a scumtell, and that's the farthest thing in the world from the crux of my case on you. Foreshadowing a suspicion is a scumtell when you do it in the contrived manner that Wraith did it, as a means of simulating a gradual progression of thought. It's the way that Hinduragi did it too, and it's mostly a gut based thing. And you know all this, because your ass was THERE in that game.

Which is also why it's a load of crap that you quoted this:

@ foilist - What is your opinion of moose ?

@ moose - What is your opinion of wraith?

@ wraith - What is your opinion of foilist?

Bitch please.

You never had any confusion about what this post meant, because you saw me do the [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2395182]exact same thing[/quote] in our game right before this. If I ask a small group of people what they think of each other in a little circular pattern, that means I think they're scum, and their ass is fried until proved innocent. That's what happened in that other game, remember? We lynched the scumbag Hinduragi D1, and and then I came in with my epic Switz case, which I ultimately dropped because he demonstrated to me that he was town.

I posted that because I was onto you and Wraith even then, however early the fuck that was in this game. And you've known that this whole time, which makes everything you've said about me trying to bus my partners only AFTER I saw that you were onto me a bullshit farce to begin with.

[archaebob]

EBWOP:

"You never had any confusion about what this post meant, because you saw me do the exact same thingin our game right before this. If I ask a small group of people what they think of each other in a little circular pattern, that means I think they're scum, and their ass is fried until proved innocent. That's what happened in that other game, remember? We lynched the scumbag Hinduragi D1, and and then I came in with my epic Switz case, which I ultimately dropped because he demonstrated to me that he was town."

[archaebob]

unvote, vote: Furcolow

We can't rely on a vig. However, if one exists then they should hit Wraith, assuming Furcolow gets lynched.

If he does flip scum, then Archaebob is for sure.

I truly believe you are scum. But my belief is based in large part on Furcolow and Wraith being scum.

That means I have to lynch them first.

I now believe

Furcolow is scum based on you being scum, which I am becoming increasingly sure of.

The best play is to lynch him first (partly because he is such a non-contributor even a vig shot would be wasted) and based on his flip lynch you or Wraith second.

Wait...what? Which direction is the contingency going in? What do you believe again?

So...now...based on that very last quote...you know believe that

Furc

is scum based on

me

being scum.

So why are you voting furc again?

[archaebob]

@ nicol - I completely believe that Wraith, Foilist, and Furcolow are scum. Honest to god truth, there's no ego involved here at all.

@ foil - I'm going to stfu for the next 48 hours. Can you agree to a truce?

[archaebob]

At least one of wraith and fur is town!!! This is fact!!! I know people are lost in walls, but this we know for definite!!! >>Unless we believe that both abob and foil are town or unless four scum a possibility.

Just one small thing...I really don't understand how you got to this conclusion. If I'm town and foilist is scum, then why can't both of them also be scum? The only reason you've given for this is that neither foilist nor I are "bad enough" to create a situation with a guaranteed scum loss. I don't buy this at all. Foilist had no way to know I was going to make an offer like the one I've made, and has not done anything at all to guarantee a town win. Read the thread, it is entirely the result of my posting that you have this situation right now where town can't really lose.

[archaebob]

@ Hrezs -

At that point in the game, I was frustrated and beginning to lose interest. All I saw was everyone playing in ways that was going to help lurker scum, and that I was getting flak every time I tried to make a suggestion. I was sick and tired of trying to save the game and being the organizer while everyone was giving me shit for it, so I lashed out. All the players on that list were lurkers who I knew next to nothing about, and the post was designed more to pressure those people and get somebody else to take the reins for a while than it was to actually lynch a random person. I've never made a post like that in any game ever, as town or scum.

@ everyone -

I understand that you guys are all waiting for my epic case. You'll have to forgive me, I've been writing a lot of walls for the last couple of pages, and haven't had a lot of extra time. Just bear with me please, as my cases take a long time to write.

No really, they do.

...

I'm totally not kidding.

...

And you guys really should not lynch me before the replacements get here and indicate that they are down to lynch foilist if I flip town. I've made myself very clear about what circumstances I would be happy to die in, and you guys aren't respecting that. I said I'd be willing to confirm myself as town if it would lead to the lynching of wraith, furc, and foilist. Instead, I'm hearing all this crap about how wraith and furcolow might be town. That wasn't part of my offer. Now, some wiseass is going to retort and say that I'm not the one who gets to decide when I die. Fine, whatever, but that means you're just mislynching me for no reason instead of engaging in a strategic gambit. If you guys aren't convinced that wraith and furc are scum yet, then you really should leave me around for a while (i gotta a lot to say on that), and there's no way in hell I'd ever have said what I said about selfvoting if I had thought there was still any question about wraith.

What you should really do is lynch wraith today, and vig furcolow tonight. Then, tomorrow, if foilist and I are both still alive, I'll happily go first. When I flip town, you can just vig foilist, and call it a game.

If we have no vig, same scenario, it'll just take a little longer.

[archaebob]

@ moose -

Kewl. In the meantime, the reason I was voting a wraith instead of furc or foilist is because I am

equally convinced that all three of them are scum

, and Wraith's wagon was the biggest.

Speaking of which...

Since we were all about lynch Wraith on pg 17 before I totally blew the lid of this game with my epic reads, why does nobody want to lynch wraith anymore?

If it comes down to me versus foil, I'm voting foil, because I'm not happy with how everyone is twisting my offer to die first.

[archaebob]

I thought we were being quiet for 48 hours?

That means I'm not going after you with walls for a bit, asshole, not that I'm going to be completely silent for two days.

[archaebob]

@ moose -

Soft-claims are null for me, especially for a player at his thinking level.

He's still scum though, because of everything else.

[archaebob]

I've just seen them come from townies, and I don't see why scum are more likely to make them in the first place.

I guess I can imagine a particular kind of situation where it might be a scum-tell. Like if a really experienced player who should know better dropped one.

But with furcolow hard-claiming jester earlier in the thread, I don't think it's really indicative of anything, coming from him.

[archaebob]

@ moose -

Cause he's a dumbass. Probably thought we'd believe he's a jester, and he'd get a free ride through the game.

@ everybody -

I have the first half of my case ready now. Is anyone going to be mad at me if I break the 48 hour truce I agreed to? I won't be around to post much between Wed and Sun., so I'd prefer to get at least this bit out tonight.

[archaebob]

Mk.

@ foilist - Sorry for rescinding on our agreement. Honestly. I feel a little bad.

Why I Know for Sure That Foilist Is Scum and Tried to Bus Wraith

First, the history:

Archaebob makes a good and fantastically detailed case (for page 2) against boberz, but I'm going to hold off my vote for now. A lynch now would be disastrous to the town, unless we guess right on a 1/12 chance.

To which foilist replies, MUCH later:

Archaebob makes a good and fantastically detailed case (for page 2) against boberz,

but I'm going to hold off my vote

for now.

This phrase implies that you agree with the case.

A lynch now would be disastrous to the town,

unless we guess right on a

1/12 chance.

This phrase implies the case has zero merit. There is no question of semantics here, or taking english too literally. You contradicted yourself in the same post. The contradiction allows you to choose a position and justifiably on either side of the wagon. That is beneficial to scum and pointless for town. That makes it a scum tell.

Secondly, you chose to explain it already in a patently false way. That means you know it's a scum tell and were trying to distance yourself from it. That means any new explanation is also a lie or else you would have said it in the first place.

Now, this is the part in the game where I became sure, beyond all reasonable doubt, that foilist is scum. And I'll explain why in a sec. I didn't have time to really go into detail at first, but I did generally outline what my case will be during my big "abridged version" post from earlier.

- Foilist is scum for an obvious bus of wraith using fail logic that he can't possibly believe in, and for trying to set up a chain lynch of furcolow (he would never do this as town).

This phrase implies the case has zero merit. There is no question of semantics here, or taking english too literally. You contradicted yourself in the same post. The contradiction allows you to choose a position and justifiably on either side of the wagon. That is beneficial to scum and pointless for town. That makes it a scum tell.

Secondly, you chose to explain it already in a patently false way. That means you know it's a scum tell and were trying to distance yourself from it. That means any new explanation is also a lie or else you would have said it in the first place.

This whole point is utter manipulative bullshit because of foil's experience in this game. More on this later, but for now I suggest you just read all of D2.

Foilist, reading the above, completely flips his lid:

Here Archaebob is trying to show me as scum by linking you to my first game of mafia ever, over a year ago, in which I was town. He isn't pointing out contrasts, he's pointing out similarities.

In D2, me being an idiot, I lied about several of my posts and fake claimed cop in order to try and stay alive. Archaebob is now going to try and tell you that that shows what I sound like when I'm not being truthful, and is going to then try and link that to what's happening now. Let me save you some time. It's bullshit.

The only way someone might believe this is if they are impressed with the sheer amount of work Archaebob put into it, and how clever he sounds linking you to a game so long ago.

Let's try a more recent game.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=12592&start=0

This is mini 873. Much more recent.

In this Archaebob acts exactly the same way. He is bossy, posts WoT frequently, and is generally considered to be pro-town. Except for his random votes in the beginning, he never votes scum. Ever. This is who you're listening to.

So you try to discredit me, I discredit you. Interesting how that works.

This is a HUGE overreaction, which is very unlike modern-day foilist. Especially since I hadn't even really made an argument yet. Foilist sees my link, thinks I'm trying to "discredit him" by linking to his first game on the site ever (like that makes sense...he was the cop in that game anyways 0_0) , and totally goes balls out trying to dig up whatever embarrassing fossil he can find from my own past. And all of this he does so that can

discredit me right back in my face!!!

Ouch foil. You got me.

I'm still not sure how exactly I got this far under foilist's skin with one little unexplained link, but I will say that it's pretty empowering to have that kind of authority over someone else's emotions. Especially a scumbag like him who I'm about to get lynched.

Anyways, here's the real point of that link:

I'm not trying to compare foilist's play in this game to his play in that game. That wouldn't make any sense, because he was town-aligned in that game, and it was his first ever. What I'm

actually

doing is comparing his play in that game to

Wraith's

play in this game, and comparing the fail logic that was used by the scum in that game to get foilist lynched to the fail logic he has tried to use against Wraith to make his bus seem plausible in this game.

As foilist described in his big babyish rant from earlier, he played really fucking dumb in that game. It's not his fault though. He's a very intelligent person who was simply not experienced with how mafia is played on this site yet, and overthought what he was doing (therefore coming off as scum). He made a dumb logic mistake in this post.

Here’s the quote in question for which he got nailed:

Muffin was not saved, so presumably there is no doctor, and therefore no cop. Either that, or the doctor chose to save someone else, but I think this unlikely.

This was a newbie game with the F11 setup, so the deduction he tried to make in this post could not possibly have been made by someone who was town. If you’ve clicked the link above, you’ll see in the post immediately after where the failure in logic occurred. Essentially, saying that no doctor means no cop ignore two of the possibilities (cop/no doctor, doctor/no cop), which means foilist must have known there was a roleblocker. Sanjay was actually the scum in the game, and foilist was actually the cop (he supposedly was trying to make it seem like a cop was not in the game to save himself; a stupid move on his part, but one that is forgivable considering his supreme noobishness at the time).

The reason all of this is relevant is because of the way that foilist tried to defend himself after being called out on what seemed like a scumslip. In a word, he lied, which is an even worse move than what he had already done. If you continue reading the thread, you’ll see the various horrible things he came up with to defend himself, the most egregious being this:

Ouch. And more ouch. - He wasn’t expressing a “certainty.” He was merely saying it was “unlikely that we have cop, since only one of the possibilities allows for a cop and no doctor.”

Rebuttal: His phrase is very explicitly a deduction, and DOES imply certainty. “...there is no doctor, and

therefore

no cop.” Also, if he wasn’t implying a certainty, it would be a pointless observation: of course a 1/4 chance is unlikely, but it applies to any of the other 3 options as well.

If he had just admitted to having not carefully read the rules immediately when he made his slip, he would have been fine. Instead, stupidly, like any typical noob, he made up a blatantly fabricated defense, and was lynched because of it.

Much later, he tried to give the real explanation for his slip-up, but it was unfortunately already too late:

Yesterday it was demonstrated that appeals to emotion do not work and are generally frowned upon, so despite the fact that the truth was that I did not know, it was a weaker defense and seemed the wrong way to approach this. Your firm belief is stupid because you make the assumption that I knew exactly how the game worked BEFORE I made the post when I did not demonstrate it until AFTER I made it, and obviously the first thing I would do would to go find out what my mistake was and where I was wrong.

What if I am town and really did just make a mistake? What if I'm a town power role who did know the roles and made the post?

There are two key conclusions that one learns from this game:
- A superficial slip up in the wording of a post cannot in and of itself be an entire case against someone, ESPECIALLY when dealing with an inexperienced player.
- An inexperienced player who initially lies in their defense against some attack is not necessarily scum. And the fact that they initially lied does not mean anything they say after is necessarily untrue. Anyone who had been thinking with their gut in this game would have been able to realize that foilist was probably town; they at least would have given him another day, or even until deadline to try and make an argument about someone else. Unfortunately, all the players in this game were thinking with “logic” (including me), and foilist was mislynched very quickly.

And the player most likely in this game to

deeply

internalize the above two lessons was foilist.

Which is why this attack on wraith confirms him as scum:

Archaebob makes a good and fantastically detailed case (for page 2) against boberz,

but I'm going to hold off my vote

for now.

This phrase implies that you agree with the case.

A lynch now would be disastrous to the town,

unless we guess right on a

1/12 chance.

This phrase implies the case has zero merit. There is no question of semantics here, or taking english too literally. You contradicted yourself in the same post. The contradiction allows you to choose a position and justifiably on either side of the wagon. That is beneficial to scum and pointless for town. That makes it a scum tell.

Secondly, you chose to explain it already in a patently false way. That means you know it's a scum tell and were trying to distance yourself from it. That means any new explanation is also a lie or else you would have said it in the first place.

His original point here is that Wraith “contradicted himself” by both complimenting me on my case and still saying that a boberz lynch would have a 1/12 chance of success in the same post. And this

really big

contradiction is a scumtell because only scum would make a mistake like that.

This is an extremely poor point, even by itself, as I don’t see the scum motivation for saying something like this. It is more of a noob-tell than a scum-tell.

But the gold lies in the second paragraph. The one I italicized. The one where foilist makes an argument that any new explanation for Wraith's mistake must be a lie because

otherwise he would have already said it in the first place

.

Foilist knows this isn't true, because he was mislynched for this very reason in his first game ever on the site.

And this is why, from my perspective, foilist is confirmed scum in this game. Because I was

there

in that first game with him. Because I’m the one who got him mislynched. Because I could never, as town, make a purely contrived logical case like that again against an inexperienced player after having been in that game.

And because I

can’t imagine how foilist could either

.

That’s why he’s scum. Because he made an argument that he knows is bogus and would never make as town against an inexperienced player.

And that’s also why wraith is scum. Because foilist would never make a craplogic argument like this against someone and push for their lynch with a vote

unless he already knew from the beginning that they would flip scum, and that he would not have to defend the logic behind his case

.

That means it was a bus. I don’t know how well I’m articulating this second point, and some of it honestly is just my gut. I can smell in the air based on how well I know foilist that he wasn’t going for a town mislynch with that move. He was going for town cred.

--

This is only the first half of my meta case. I’m cutting it in half, so that you guys will stop bitching at me about trying to delay.

I’m going V/LA from Wednesday night to Sunday, so it might be ideal to have that period of time coincide with night. If you guys still want to lynch me today...well, there’s nothing I can really do about that at this point. I think it was a mistake to volunteer myself for the lynch, though the offer will still stand as soon as Wraith and Furcolow are dead (or as soon as I’m convinced they will definitely die). I’m not going to be around to defend myself anymore after tonight.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Fine, don't let me live. Can you not let me live tomorrow? I don't understand why my gambit is now binding if it's not a good strategy at this point in the game.

You seem really hung up over making sure that I follow through with my own suggestions, so that I can't "get away" with anything. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, as I have no history of rescinding on promises (except my promise to not post for 48 hours...sorry).

What I'd recommend is vigging me N2.

Think about it this way. If I'm actually right about all three, then we can have a perfect game. In fact, if furc IS vigged tonight, we'll be done

after the D2 lynch

. I don't think that's ever been done before. And if after all of that one of my scum picks turn out to be town, you can STILL kill me then

for the exact same reason you want to kill me now.

Because you don't want me to "get away with my gambit", or whatever. There's no advantage to lynching me right now if you think I might be town who is actually right, except to prove some kind of self-righteous point to me.

I made my offer in the arrogantly self-confident belief that everyone already knew wraith and furcolow were scum, and that I just needed to prove that foilist was as well. I was willing to die before foilist because I was pretty sure nobody would think we could both be town, and I'd therefore be winning the game by sacrificing myself.

HOWEVER,

since there are several players who now

don't

think Wraith is necessarily scum, I am

taking my offer back.

It no longer helps me reach my win condition. Being mislynched for no reason is anti-town, and I'd rather stick around and continue trying to convince you guys that wraith and furcolow are scum along with foilist.

Now, you guys can lynch me anyways if you want. But it is entirely your own decision, and you should only do it if you think I'm currently the most likely out of anyone else in this game to be scum. Not because you want to "call my bluff." I've already said multiple times that I think it was a stupid move strategically, because too many things could go wrong.

That being said, I AM still willing to sacrifice myself

after Wraith and Furcolow are dead

, or after you guys seem convinced that they must die.

Poll: If you guys decide not to lynch me today, who between Wraith, Furcolow, and Foilist are you most likely to kill? I'm asking because your answer will decide where I put my final vote before going V/LA tonight.

[archaebob]

Sacrificing yourself doesn't work that way abob. You don't get to change the terms of agreement. You seem less confident than before now that people are willing to lynch you. This 'vig me night 2' is crap. Thats not sacrificing yourself at all. That's 'give me some time' so I don't have to die despite being the one to bring this idea up'

That said, my stance is the only person I'm willing to vote for right now are abob and wraith

Like I said, you're trying to "hold me to what I said."

This is not good strategy.

And yes, I

am

less confident. I've said that several times now, including right after I first made the offer to begin with. I'm not sure anymore that it's actually helping my win condition, because I'm not convinced you guys are going to lynch who I think the scum are. That was the ONLY REASON I ever made the offer to begin with, because I thought that my flipping town would confirm that foilist is scum, and that the other two were already outed. You guys have demonstrated to me that this is

not

the case, meaning I'm reluctant to being lynched before any of the people who I think are scum. This makes perfect sense from my perspective if I'm town.

The only reason you guys are pushing for my lynch right now is to "make sure I don't get away with having made this gambit." That's fine, I understand that I've put myself in that position. But you guys can be just as hard-ass about this point tomorrow as you can today. I

can't

make anymore comments on this game tomorrow if you lynch me today. If you're so concerned with the possibility of me being scum who just made a dumb gambit, then just make sure you lynch me before lylo! I can't win this game now no matter what if you guys promise to lynch me at some point, so there's no reason for you to insist that I

die today

when I

could

be town who legitimately has nailed the scum and might be able to convince you if you give me time.

You guys are seeing this as scummy because I said something earlier that was a little cocky, and now that you're "calling my bluff", I'm going back on it. This is really a stupid reason to lynch me, and please think about what you're doing. I understand that my outward display of arrogance and overconfidence hasn't made me any friends here, but I don't think it's worth it to you to do something illogical just to prove your point to me. I already learned my lesson from this particular episode.

If you don't actually have a scum read on me, and are at least partially convinced by my cases, then you should seriously consider lynching one of the other people first. My going back on my offer to self-lynch is not a scumtell, because it makes perfect sense that I'd be doing this as town, given how much the circumstances have changed since I first made that offer.
Even as you are reading this, I'm sure you're having a knee jerk reaction to this post that makes you want to lynch me more because I

sound

like I'm just trying to get out of being lynched, and it would be

really bad

if you let me survive this game as scum after everything I've done. I get it. Just try and think about the logic of this situation instead.

There is no reason not to delay lynching me because of my "offer" for one day, because I can't make this argument to you everyday until lylo.

Especially if any of my candidates flip town.

Another way to think about it:

I've said numerous times now that all of my three choices are interchangeable. That means I'm equally willing to lynch wraith, furcolow, OR foilist. Theoretically, if I'm scum, then only two of those are also scum, and one of them is actually town. I've also said numerous times that

if any of the people I have picked flip town, then I'm completely wrong about everything, or I'm scum, so you should lynch me.

That means that it must be pretty risky for me to be totally open for lynching any of those three if I'm actually the third scum. If you guys pick the one who is actually town, then I'm screwed, right?

You can contrast this attitude with foilist's, who keeps trying to connect me to furcolow and wraith, and insist that they get lynched first. THAT is scum trying to pin a bus on a townie. And, like I've pointed out, he keeps contradicting himself as far as which direction the contingencies are going in. One second I'm scum because he thinks Furcolow is, and then the next Furcolow is scum because he thinks I am. I have a whole post about that earlier in the thread.

All I'm saying is that if you have a town read on me, and find my arguments somewhat convincing, then should lynch the people I think are scum until one of them flips town. If I'm scum, then there is

no way I will escape

. But if I'm town, and I'm right, then we'll have a perfect game.

Think about it.

[archaebob]

Abob- does your entire case rest on Wraith being scum? If it does, we should just lynch wraith

My case doesn't at all rest on wraith being scum. It equally rests on all three of them. If ANY of them flip town, then I'm wrong about everything (except maybe foilist...I'm pretty positive because of that meta stuff).

In any case though, I agree with your conclusion. We should just lynch wraith. Or furcolow. Or foilist.

Seriously dude, you thought wraith was scummy yourself before. Do you have a stronger scum read on me now than you do on him?

[archaebob]

Alright guys, I gotta go.

Based on what I've heard, I'm gonna do this:

unvote

vote foilist

@ boberz - I understand your point of view, and it mostly makes sense. I don't know why you think I'd be able to somehow survive lylo after bussing my two partners and being wrong about the third. I've also said that you can pick any of the three, which means there's a 1/3 chance I'll be outed today. And then a 1/2 chance tomorrow. The

only way

I can still win as scum at this point is if I successfully manipulate the town into lynching the two people who I'm bussing first, and then somehow manage to convince the people in lylo that I was town even after having the third flip as a mislynch. If any part of that goes wrong, then I'm screwed. It's insane odds for me, especially with my screaming over and over again that all three of my choices are interchangeable. I can't exactly prefer one over the other later on, right? How am I supposed to win this game as scum again?

Anyways, if it's me or foil, I think you should pick foil. If I hadn't made this dumb offer, you'd be picking him anyways, and I'm pretty sure my arguments have been more consistent.

@ Mod:

I'm V/LA through Sunday.

I might be able to get on for small periods of time while V/LA, though I'm not sure. Most of that time will have to go to the Mish Mash game I'm modding, probably.

And I'll hammer whichever of these scumbags gets to L-1 first.

Any

of the three.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

I'm not wrong about furc. I can't fathom why this doesn't make him confirmed. Who else could he possibly be talking to?

[archaebob]

EBWOP: No really, I'm not wrong about Furc.

[archaebob]

Well, that was extremely hilarious.

My friend just called from California to tell me that she will NOT be arriving today, and will be flying in late tomorrow night instead. And now she'll be staying until Tuesday.

Fur's random claim going unchecked makes no sense to me. It is so un-town in every way.

Then vote him. No one's stopping you. If you believe that both foil and I can be town who are just moronically screwing over everyone, then vote someone else. I've already said many times that I'm just as happy to lynch furcolow as I am wraith or foilist.

Well if that's the way it's going to go, then there's nothing else for it.

Is Archaebob at L-1?

Lol. Why does this matter?

Is anyone else noticing how completely waffly and indecisive foilist has been with his stances for the last few pages? And don't even try to twist that around on me, I'm being waffly with my self-policy-lynch idea, not my reads.

This definitely looks to me like someone who's being careful not to make a mistake, and is trying to keep his options open. If you really are as sure about my being scum as you have said over and over again in this thread (and he has. not as dramatically as me maybe, but he has), then why are you

still

too scared to vote me?

[archaebob]

The amount of WIFOM that this requires to be true stretches the limits of belief for it. It relies on:

1. Lots of Meta. Meta can be manipulated to the user's advantage, and playstyles can change entirely between games. Meta is unreliable.
2. Foilist overreacting. Considering how zealously you're pushing a lynch against him, and that you are so certain as to who his partners are and what his strategy is, he doesn't seem to be overreacting at all to me.
3. That Foilist is bussing. Foilist could just be overzealous and using craplogic. The only "evidence" supporting Abob's belief that foilist is bussing is meta knowledge, which I've already stated is unreliable. Plus, I believe he is stating that "foilist is ruthless enough to bus both partners." @Abob: If you did post an example where foilist DID bus both partners in a game where he was scum and I missed it, refer me to it please. Otherwise, there's no basis for such a claim aside from Abob's meta beliefs combined with WIFOM.

Furthermore, I believe the only basis for his case against Furcolow is that Furc has played a scummy game. Since you love your meta, I'll use my own - you'll find that Furcolow always plays scummy, and this has been stated multiple times.

This is a giant gamble by Abob to cause a series of mislynches, with or without Foilist. Personally, however, I think foilist is in on it and is a failsafe in case Abob is lynched instead, thereby gaining at least one of the players massive town cred. Either way, I think Abob is scum.

1) Foilist's case on me is even more predicated on meta than mine is. In fact, find me all the points that foilist has made about my being scum that do not ultimately boil down to meta.

2) LOL at this slip. Yes wraith, you're right. Considering how certain I am about who his partners are and what his strategy is, his reaction is to be expected. It makes perfect sense that he would react like this, actually. BUT, if he was town, he wouldn't

have

partners. And I'd be wrong about his strategy, so he would have nothing to react to so emotionally.

And anyways, I haven't once presented his overreaction as a serious cornerstone of my case against him, so I don't know what you're going on about.

3) And lol again. Wraith, are you even paying attention to what you are writing? Absolutely

every word

of this third point applies to foilist just as much as it does to me. I don't have an example of him bussing both partners, but neither does he. I

do

however have a pretty significant example of his bussing his

other

partner in a game where there was only two scum. And it's been linked in this thread twice now.

Oh really huh? That's my only basis against furcolow? Let's take a look at the

evidence

.

Back when the only thing furcolow had done was play a scummy game, I was arguing this:

@ Furc -

I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You're useless to me. I can't even get a read on you because of how much of a VI you are.

@ vig (if you exist) - Please please PLEASE kill furcolow tonight. It's not just because I don't like him, it's because his level of play is so low that we'll never be able to read him as scum or town one way or the other. His play serves only to impede and distract the town.

It would be preferable not to have to lynch him, as it would be a policy lynch and would therefore stifle discussion. But if he's still alive tomorrow I don't really think we have a choice.

I'm done wasting my time on him, and I would recommend that all of us just ignore him completely for the rest of today. He has no useful contribution to make, and we're not going to get any information about his alignment from him.

That all changed when furcolow confirmed himself as scum by blatantly talking to foilist about the fact that he was being bussed.

@ everyone -

Look at this last post by wraith and tell me he isn't scum.

Don't ignore what I just wrote.

Seriously look at this last post and tell me wraith isn't scum. He isn't reading this thread carefully at all. He already knows who he's going to side with if it comes down between foilist and myself, and is attempting to justify his entirely arbitrary vote with a bunch of bull that applies equally to foilist as it does to myself.

Do not let him get away with this after I am dead.

Hey Wraith, what happened to this?

Archaebob

0: confirm
1: hello
2: randomvote
3: asks Furcolow why a serious FoS but keeping randomvote
4: WoT on boberz,

accuses boberz of overreaction, overdefensiveness, and WIFOM defense

5: EBWOP
6: offtopic
7: offtopic
8: asks Furcolow why he wants a claim
9:

pushes lurker/absentees to commit and scumhunt

10:

joins Furcolow wagon for no reason

11: tells boberz not to claim

12: attacks Furcolow for rolefishing

13: tells foilist to do a votecount
14:

attacks Furcolow for avoiding questions and rolefishing

, asks boberz for meta
15: offtopic
16:

attacks NB wagon, refuting reasoning for it

, attacks boberz for overdefensiveness/nervousness,

player analysis

17:

attacks Furcolow for rolefishing and avoiding questions again

, believes Furcolow is scum or VI
18: meta
19: meta
20: clarifies stance on nervousness=scumtell, attacks boberz
21: attacks Hrescz, wants Furcolow meta
22: suggests not posting "rank lists" of suspicions
23:

attacks Furcolow for randomvoting late in the game

24: comments to Hrescz
25: wants prod for a2rudeboy
26: wants rudeboy to replace out, wants vig kill on Furcolow,

moves off Furcolow

, votes Moose for flailing
27: pushes foilist for participation
28: attacks Hrescz
29: asks several players for opinions on other players, believes Furcolow is VI to be vigkilled, votes FEMM for lurking
30:

pushes to lay off Furcolow

,

FoS foilist for deliberate craplogic

31: pushes for scumhunts on lurkers
32:

suddenly doesn't care and wants to wagon any of the lurkers/absentees

33: EBWOP
34:

votes Wraith for wagoning reasons

35:

pushes NB to vote Wraith for no reason

36:

WoT on own playstyle and play of others

37:

claims will vote for biggest bandwagon

38: votes moose for idiot play
39:

asks players to hold pressure on Wraith but not hammer until he can defend himself

40: explains play to foilist
41: attacks Moose, prefers Moose lynch

but keeps vote on Wraith

42: attacks Moose
43: unvotes Moose for claim, votes Tasky for lurking
44: votes Wraith,

restates not caring about who we wagon

45: comments on Wraith's analysis
46: comments on Wraith's analysis
47: votes Wraith, FoS foilist and Furcolow
48:

WoT on Wraith/foilist/Furcolow scumteam

(while paranoid and overanalyzing he brings up some fair points on the play of all, especially foilist)
49: comments on foilist
50: attacks Wraith, believes Hrescz is town
51: comments on Wraith
52: comments on WoT
53: doesn't want anyone to vote Wraith because Wraith will self-hammer (confusion here)

Even if he is wrong, archaebob is obviously town. He has made smart arguments and is zealously scumhunting, aside from a short lull of "I'll jump on the best wagon." Most of the italics here are highlighted because they are scumhunting atacks that have good/valid reasoning. However, I'll add in that his recent play (last 4-5 pages or so) has been distinctly less townie than his earlier play Z(since he backed off of Furcolow). Now I'm confusing myself with WIFOM.

Conclusion: PossiblyTown

And this?

bold is scummy, italic is townie

foilist

0: confirm
1: history with AB
2: no RQS, randomvote
3: suspects Furcolow and boberz
4: note on post 3 time
5: comments on voting patterns
6: offtopic
7: attacks on Furcolow,

suspicions of boberz for defending himself, wants AB to ease off scumhunting

8: offtopic
9: EBWOP, votes Furcolow
10: catching up IRL issues
11: claims Furcolow is scummy for wanting claims but not willing to claim himself

(BS logic) Possible that foilist is rolefishing himself

12: attacks Wraith based on

post-wording. (BS logic)

13:

attacks NB for "active lurking," which is total BS

14: claims may change vote to Furcolow based on response to moose
15: calls out Wraith on ignoring questions, asks NB to prove alignment
16: asks Furcolow top three suspects
17: believes Moose is noob town
18: believes Furcolow is failtown
19: restates case

(BS logic)

on NB, believes Moose is noob
20: asks Moose for meta, votes Moose, believes Moose is scum masquerading VI
21: will step up activity,

suspects Wraith and encourages attacks without basis

22:

calls out Tasky on craplogic

, willing to wagon Tasky
23:

attacks NB repeatedly for IoA but unvotes, votes Wraith for no reason

24: player analysis, attacks Wraith, Hrescz
25: attacks Moose
26: accepts AB's explanation of play, then

IGMEOYs

(?)
27: EBWOP
28:

unvotes Wraith to prevent hammer before he can defend himself

29: pro-town read on AB, votes Moose
30: asks Moose about claiming cop
31: asks Moose for claim
32:

rolefishing on Moose

33: not going to unvote Moose
34: comments
35: not voting FEMM because of replacing, not voting Hrescz because rather vote Wraith or Moose
36:

votes Wraith because doesn't want wagon dropped, flip-flopping

37: comments on AB's play
38: WoT on Wraith,

full of craplogic, case is based mostly around overanalyzed post wording, accuses parroting despite earlier scumhunting

39: offtopic
40: rebuttal to AB
41: WoT on arhcaebob

(OMGUS), votes Wraith anyway

Foilist has been picking someone to tunnel and then moves off when momentum on the wagon grinds to a halt. He started with a crap case against NB (who is clearly town at this point), then to Moose, then moved on to me (started with no reason), then back to Moose, then moved to Hrescz (bussing?), and now he's moved back to me now that AB has made a convincing case against me. He has consistently used craplogic in all his cases or no logic at all. For accusing NB of "flip-flopping" initially, he sure has done a crapton of it himself. Preview Edit: He has suddenly switched gears against someone who he hasn't focused much on: Archaebob. He blatantly makes an OMGUS case against him but votes for me regardless.

Conclusion: Scum

I mean, talk about flip-flopping.

[archaebob]

@ Wraith -

Do you know what cornerstone means?

Yeah, that's true, opinions change. Why did yours change? Foilist has been no less metabased in his attacks than me. And you conveniently ignored every part of my last post that challenged you to substantiate your opinion on that point.

As far as furcolow goes, your interpretation of this is bull, and you know it. Furcolow didn't

flame

foilist. That little quote at the end there is not an insult. It's a very specific comment.

"I saw what you just tried to do there. You think you're being sneaky, but I can tell what you're setting up, asshole. You aren't that subtle, I SEE YOU WHAT YOU DID THERE."

If furcolow was trying to "flame" foilist, he would call him a butt face, or insult him in some other

very non-subtle way

. None of foilist's "insults" were all that subtle either, so there is no reason for furcolow to let him know that he "saw what you did there." The only subtle thing that foilist did in his post before this exchange was

set furcolow up to be lynched the next day.

You are deliberately trying to brush this little exchange under the rug. Don't even waste your time. Nobody who thinks seriously about this will have any confusion what furcolow was trying to say to foilist. And I hope that the way you are trying to twist this around helps them see you even more clearly for the scumbag we both know you are.

[archaebob]

@ moose -

What furcolow "sees there" is that foilist was setting him up to be lynched the next day. That's the only thing which is there to be "seen."

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

Here, foilist makes an argument that Furcolow might be scum if wraith is. This means that if wraith flips scum, furcolow is more likely to be scum according to foilist.

More intelligent than you, obviously.

Perfect example of how he behaves towards all other players

Here, they insult each other. It's a short back and forth of insults. And then furcolow writes this:

I see what you did there

What do you think furcolow sees moose? Go and read that part of the thread (bottom of page 17/top of page 18). There is

nothing

there for furcolow to have "seen" except the fact that foilist just tried to set him up for a lynch the next day.

And the way in which he makes his comment sounds like he is on a little secret with foilist. Most of the people in the game have said at one point or another that furcolow should die. Why is he responding this way to foilist only?

My theory: Furcolow

knows

that wraith is scum, and

knows

that when he flips, the argument that foil made in the first quote of his post will come into play. Furcolow will then be on the hot seat. He also knows that foilist is his scumpartner, and is doing all this on purpose to get town credit for lynching wraith and furcolow one after the other. Furcolow doesn't like this one bit, because he's selfish and stupid. So, even though he's not quite dumb enough to say "Foilist! Stop bussing me", he

is

going to jab back at foilist at least to

let him know

that he "sees" what foilist did there.

What he's basically saying is this:

"You know what foilist, you're a big fat jerk. I can tell that you're trying to bus me, which I think is really mean, because you're on my scumteam, so you should really be my friend. You think you're so clever huh? Yeah, well I can see what you're doing, you're not as smart as you think you are asshole. I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!!!"

In my opinion, moose, that is the only interpretation of this exchange that makes any sense. That's what both my gut and logic are telling me.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

[archaebob]

GRRR.

@ moose:

Look at this one instead.

EBWOP:

What furcolow "sees there" is that foilist was setting him up to be lynched the next day. That's the only thing which is there to be "seen."

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

Here, foilist makes an argument that Furcolow might be scum if wraith is. This means that if wraith flips scum, furcolow is more likely to be scum according to foilist.

More intelligent than you, obviously.

Perfect example of how he behaves towards all other players

Here, they insult each other. It's a short back and forth of insults. And then furcolow writes this:

I see what you did there

What do you think furcolow sees moose? Go and read that part of the thread (bottom of page 17/top of page 18). There is

nothing

there for furcolow to have "seen" except the fact that foilist just tried to set him up for a lynch the next day.

And the way in which he makes his comment sounds like he is on a little secret with foilist. Most of the people in the game have said at one point or another that furcolow should die. Why is he responding this way to foilist only?

My theory: Furcolow

knows

that wraith is scum, and

knows

that when he flips, the argument that foil made in the first quote of his post will come into play. Furcolow will then be on the hot seat. He also knows that foilist is his scumpartner, and is doing all this on purpose to get town credit for lynching wraith and furcolow one after the other. Furcolow doesn't like this one bit, because he's selfish and stupid. So, even though he's not quite dumb enough to say "Foilist! Stop bussing me", he

is

going to jab back at foilist at least to

let him know

that he "sees" what foilist did there.

What he's basically saying is this:

"You know what foilist, you're a big fat jerk. I can tell that you're trying to bus me, which I think is really mean, because you're on my scumteam, so you should really be my friend. You think you're so clever huh? Yeah, well I can see what you're doing, you're not as smart as you think you are asshole. I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!!!"

In my opinion, moose, that is the only interpretation of this exchange that makes any sense. That's what both my gut and logic are telling me.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

[archaebob]

All three scum are now on my wagon. I wonder if this has ever happened in a game on D1 before?

[archaebob]

No, I'm just pretty much done with this game. There will be little to no significant content from me until D2, or unless I have a sudden burst of energy tomorrow and nothing to do.

Good. I guess that's a fairly reasonable excuse to just ignore my case on you that I just posted.

[archaebob]

Vanilla townie.

Good luck guys.

[archaebob]

One thing: if you guys ever have reason to suspect that there might be a third party in this game, then I'd take a serious look at Hrezs. He'd be my top pick for serial killer if I came to think we might have one. He has never once written a case on anyone, despite being a relatively active player, and he has not explained why he is continuing to push for my lynch despite having strongly suspected Wraith earlier in the game. I have responded to each of the reasons he has given for preferring me over foilist, and he has either said that he's "thinking about it" or simply ignored them. His motives are confusing to me and don't seem necessarily town aligned (though up to this point I've interpreted it as his personality), and the only reason he's not on my scumlist is because I don't see any strong connections between him and other players the way I do with Wraith, Furc, and Foil. He's playing completely as a lone wolf who refuses to let anyone else get a read on him. Do not let him get away with this just because he presents it as a part of his personality. If he tries to claim vig later in the game, I'd be very suspicious of him. Atm I think I he's just stubborn town, but there's definitely a few things he's done that I would take a second look at.

Caelum, Nicol, Boberz, and Femm are probably town. Though the first three are smart enough to be pulling it off as third party.

I maintain to my grave that the scum in this game are Wraith, Furcolow, and Foilist. I've never been this sure about any game.

@ esurio - Please catch up quickly. I think they're going to lynch me soon.

[archaebob]

Alright, I'm actually

V/LA

as of now.

@ boberz - The other case I'm going to write is the same size as the first one I wrote. I really cannot get that to you until after I come back, period. Despite foilist's utterly dishonest insinuations, I don't have any history of promising things like cases and then not following through with them.

@ Hrezs - It's not weird to do this as town, because it's my last chance to get my reads out. And all this "most third party players play to their town meta" is bull. All non-town players

try

to play their town meta. I'm making a statement about you that I don't have a strong town read on you, because you seem pretty smart, and yet your play is designed to make you largely untransparent. I also don't understand some of your motives, and I don't really believe that if you were reading the thread, you could really prefer my lynch today. It's simply illogical.

Did you read the post I made about Wraith last page? You said you didn't. If you are town (or even SK actually, lol) suggest you read it. You had a scum read on wraith, and I think it's really stupid to drop that now just you can stick to Mayor Bob who had the audacity to talk down to you earlier.

Anyways, I'm officially gone until Tuesday. I might be able to pop in for short amounts of time to answer simple questions or change my vote, but that's about it.

[archaebob]

@ Nicol -

Just ignore furc. Like seriously, it's not worth your time to even acknowledge his posts. You might want to consider lynching him just so you don't have to deal with him anymore. Especially since he's scum, and his stupid ass knows it.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

I still don't understand why you prefer my lynch to foil's. You're going off on Nicol for preferring one of two entirely interchangeable targets. This is hypocritical.

Also, I have something for you:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p1903778

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p1913009

These are two quotes of Albert B. Rampage making the exact same gambit in a game that I've tried to make in this game. I came across these while rereading my first game on the site. He was town.

[quote="Albert B. Rampage from Newbie 842] I would sacrifice myself TODAY if it meant that you would lynch who I wanted tomorrow.[/quote]

[quote="Albert B. Rampage from Newbie 842]REAAAAAAALLLY SIMPLE GUYS. KILL ME, AND THEN KILL HIM. OR KILL HIM NOW. EITHER WAY, WIN THE GAME. EASY STREET. WALK IN THE PARK. OKAY? [/quote]

I'm really confused by what you're accomplishing here boberz. Do you like foil's arguments against more than my arguments against him or what?

[archaebob]

EBWOP:
These are two quotes of Albert B. Rampage making the exact same gambit in a game that I've tried to make in this game. I came across these while rereading my first game on the site. He was town.

I would sacrifice myself TODAY if it meant that you would lynch who I wanted tomorrow.

REAAAAAAALLLY SIMPLE GUYS. KILL ME, AND THEN KILL HIM. OR KILL HIM NOW. EITHER WAY, WIN THE GAME. EASY STREET. WALK IN THE PARK. OKAY?

I'm really confused by what you're accomplishing here boberz. Do you like foil's arguments against more than my arguments against him or what?

[archaebob]

@ wraith & furcolow -

It's bus time and you know it. Look at my wagon. All three of you assholes are on it right now. Y'all must be REALLY scared of me, if you're going to allow yourselves to gang up in unison on someone you already know is going to flip town. Do you think this won't be coming up later? Think again.

@ everyone -

I'd like you to note that all three of the people I picked out as scum are voting for me right now. Neither of the two partners I picked for him are on his wagon, despite the two of us being entirely interchangeable. And please, pretty please read my exchange with Wraith. He truly has given no reason for preferring my lynch over foilist, despite my having called him out on his opportunistic logic multiple times.

Wraith: I prefer you over foilist for reasons 1, 2, 3

Me: Reason 2 is stupid, and reasons 1 and 3 apply equally to foilist.

Wraith: I'm going to ignore what you just said completely and carry on like nothing has happened.

[archaebob]

acutually , fuck that,

unvote: vote: foilist

NOW you're playing this game.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Dude, c'mon. We need you to win this game, just ignore his posts and don't let him get to you. Replacing out now is foolish. Don't leave us hanging like this.

If he's that insufferable, then why don't we just lynch him? I'd rather lynch furcolow then have you replace out.

unvote

vote furcolow

[archaebob]

unvote
vote: caycedo

good catch moose

This is called

desperation

.

There is such thing as a policy lynch, and it's not necessarily a scum tell. In this instance it definitely isn't.

I think furcolow is scum in this particular game, but I'd be

more

than happy to lynch him even if I didn't. He distracts the town, and is currently causing us to lose one of our most protown players (boberz).

@ boberz - PLEAAAASE don't replace out. It is more protown to lynch furcolow then to lose you at this stage in the game.

@ moose - Please vote furcolow. I'm frankly sick of him too, and it certainly helps that I'm totally positive about him being scum.

[archaebob]

@ boberz - you aren't replacing out, right?

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

NOOO. Please don't. What if furcolow gets killed? Will you stay then?

[archaebob]

Think about how hard of a game this is going to be for someone to replace into now. It's going to be a long time before they are able to contribute meaningfully, and they will probably be more frustrated after having read all of this then you are now. What's the chance that they are going to seriously assimilate all of the massive amounts of evidence that have been presented here? I really gotta beg you to stick to your commitment and see this through. We WILL win this game if you follow through with what you've told me. One of our most active players replacing out right now is going to be terrible for the town. Don't let that bitch furcolow get to you, he has no power over you whatsoever and we all see him in the same light you do. Just help us win this game. Please.

@ furcolow -

You believe we are both scum together, right? Why don't you prove it. Right now it sounds like you really don't think he's that scummy at all.

[archaebob]

@ everyone -

I honestly believe that it's worthwhile to lynch furcolow just on the grounds that he distracts the town and engenders disinterest and frustration with his idiocy, regardless of alignment. Even if he's not scum (I'm pretty damn sure he is), his play is damaging to the town's win condition simply because it encourages apathy. I actually have a whole article on town environments, and on their importance:

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... vironments

I honestly would rather lynch furcolow today and not have to deal with the garbage he is sure to inject in the thread then lynch foilist, even though I consider the latter to be the more dangerous opponent. Boberz replacing out is really going to hurt the town, and it seems he's far from the only player to find furcolow intolerable.

[archaebob]

Just please stay.

unvote

vote foilist

[archaebob]

That's L-1.

@ Caycedo/Esurio - The honors?

@ everyone - Y'all seem to doubt my read on furcolow. Please stop this silliness. It's very easy to ignore whatever scumtells he drops on account of his being an idiot, but you have to be more careful and discerning than that. There's a difference between the kind of basic scumtell that a semi-intelligent town player probably wouldn't drop (the kind which is inapplicable to a VI like furcolow) and a blatant exposure of one's own role. I really don't see any other explanation than the one I've given for furcolow's conversation with foilist, and I think his

desperate refusal to avoid voting for foilist today

is icing on the cake. Especially after proclaiming over and over again that he thinks we are both scum.

[archaebob]

@ vig (if present) - Kill furcolow tonight. I think he's scum. If you disagree, it doesn't matter, because he's a VI who has contributed significantly to the frustration and apathy of this town. If you don't buy my case against him, then you will in general find his alignment very difficult to discern one way or the other (given his idiocy), meaning it is better for him to be killed sooner rather than later. Also, a vig kill is preferable to a lynch because it would be a policy lynch, and would therefore stifle discussion.

@ doctor (if present) - Protect moose. He is our tracker, and needs to not die.

@ cop (if present) - Investigate wraith, furcolow, or myself. If you confirm a townie in this group, it will enormously impact the course of the day tomorrow, and there's a very strong chance you'll hit scum.

@ moose - Track whoever you honestly think is scum. If it were me, I'd track wraith or furcolow.

@ everyone - I

cannot express

how supremely confident I am about wraith and furcolow's alignment in this game. In the event that I do not awaken tomorrow, I truly hope you will pursue these two scumbags with all of the vengeance that a town mistreated like ours ought to possess.
If a do flip tonight, then I submit the correctness of my read on foilist as evidence to be considered in favor of my other opinions being true as well. I've read this game like a book, but I need your help to make this the total victory it should be.

[archaebob]

boom chicka BOOM mothafucka!!!

vote wraith

FoS: Hrezs

- in the event that the game doesn't end after today's lynch.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Furc is dead! Victory is at hand! There is no longer any reason to replace out, right?

[archaebob]

If wraith has any pride at all, he'll simply self-vote when he shows up.

[archaebob]

Oh, and I will be completely NOT mad at whoever hammers before Wraith has the chance to post. In fact I encourage it. I will personally buy whoever hammers Wraith within the next page a box of cookies for Christmas this year.

[archaebob]

@ wraith -

Good man. I respect this.

This isn't your fault by the way. Furcolow is a moron, and I've just played way too much with foilist for him ever to slip by me as scum. This was a solid performance from you.

@ everyone -

HAMMAHTIME

@ moose - Serial Killer. Check the wiki if you don't know what it is.

[archaebob]

@ wraith -

Who did you try to NK?

[archaebob]

oh, boberz, nm

[archaebob]

Awesome.

Hammer!!

And I hope for your sake that there's never an SK and a Vig in the same setup, esurio. Though I can see why that probably doesn't happen.

[archaebob]

It wasn't a shot in the dark, though I will admit that I was no where near as certain as I claimed to be. I saw the town collapsing all around me and made a strategic decision to do something totally polarizing. I hoped that by creating an intense dramatic conflict, I could generate enough information to help the town find scum later in the game. This town was a big mess for the whole first half of D1, and I didn't think enough people were playing in ways that would reveal their alignments. I decided to just pursue my current gut reads a la Rampage and get some kind of emotional reaction from them at all costs.

I already was pretty sure about Foilist by that time, and Wraith was my strongest gut read. When I made that first case, I just picked a quote from Wraith that I thought I could attack easily, even though my scum read on him was based on a lot of subtlety that I don't think I could ever articulate. I guess my judgment was just that he was too smart and had too much personality to play as waffly and weaksaucely as he was in this game. I'm mostly a gut driven player, and his play just seemed contrived. But yeah, I wasn't positive (though I was reasonably confident), I just picked my top reads and started masquerading around with an exaggerated level of certainty to give everyone something to react to. I became more certain a little later on based on the scum's poor reactions to my attack.

I really do think that the conversation between Furcolow and Foilist was pretty damning, and that you guys can pin half of this loss on Furc. His play was awful.

As far as foilist goes...oh man, what can I say about foilist? Brilliant play all around, you almost had me there, though I think you probably would have lost in the end anyways. There wasn't really anything you could do to avoid my realizing you were scum, and I'd wager you'd be able to catch me in a game fairly easily as well. In retrospect, I think it was a mistake for you to try and paint me as scum; if you were town, your honest reaction would probably have been to just assume I was being paranoid and had gone crazy again. You would have been trying to convince me that I was wrong about you, not trying to get everyone else to lynch me. Overall, you reacted a little too earnestly to me, and I think that figured heavily both into my certainty of you being scum and my ability to convince the others of the point as well.

My whole self-voting gambit was a fit of idiocy that I never intend to repeat. What a dumb move. That almost cost me everything right there.

It's kind of amazing how well this whole thing worked out. And seriously, those night actions are an absolute joke. Has there ever been a D2 victory on a 3 man scumteam before? This takes perfect win to a whole new level. There's not even a single dead town player!

Anyways, I chalk up this early victory to a lot of luck. I got very lucky with my reads, and was even luckier not to pay the price for my major strategical errors D1. I'll accept credit for outing Foilist, as his position was pretty solid before I went after him. Furc gave himself away, and Wraith was probably going to be lynched anyway. All I did was put the pieces together and put on a ridiculous fit of dramatic playacting to make sure they all got killed.

[archaebob]

Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said "Damn Wraith, that's a bitch move. You really mean it when you say go down firing."

[archaebob]

This post from foilist was terrifyingly well constructed. I remember reading it and being worried that I had struck too quickly and would get bagged for it. But it also convinced me he was scum. And when he started to flip my words around and accuse ME of bussing wraith and furcolow, I become convinced that I was completely right about wraith and furc as well. That was how I figured it out, I think. I knew foilist was scum, and he exposed the two of you through his attempts to get rid of me. I already was suspicious of Wraith, and then Furcolow sealed the deal with his slips.

[archaebob]

@ wraith -

Well I do genuinely appreciate being nominated for a scummy, I've decided that I don't think I deserve one for this game. I made a lot of blunders that almost cost the town everything, and it was sheer luck that you guys blundered right back. Anything could have gone wrong, and I definitely didn't have anything to do with the night actions working out so well for town.

I'm very pleased to have been right about all three scum D1, but like has been discussed, it was mostly a tactical maneuver that wound up paying off enormously. I don't take too much pride in having figured out the scum early either; one was an idiot, one I've played way too much with, and the other was being blatantly bussed by the one I've played too much with. I also took a very reckless approach to things, and it would have cost town the game if I had been wrong about any of you, or if the town had been anymore cynical. I feel like this game was really lucky, and I don't want to win a scummy until I feel like I've actually played a strategically solid game throughout.

So while I thank you profusely for your compliments, I wish to respectfully decline the nomination.

[archaebob]

@ wraith -

There actually is a scummy for individual performance. It's called "Oscar." Or, "Best Individual Performance."

Anyways, I'm glad it's settled.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

I agree completely. That's why I don't think I deserve any medals for this. This game was too particular for it to really reflect on my abilities as a scumhunter. Now, if in the future I ever manage to out the entire scum team D1 in a game where

all

of the scum are competent, and, furthermore, I don't already

know

any of them really well, then you can give me all the medals you want.

Also, I propose that we deliberately avoid each other for at least our next dozen games or so, as we evidently can't play in the same games without totally polarizing the town in one direction or the other. Agreed?

[archaebob]

Yeah I'd never kill me at night either, so I understand.

[archaebob]

The benefit of winning an individual game at all costs is outweighed in the long run by how much can be learned from trying to outwit a great player that you've left alive for kicks. Also, it's more fun when the game is challenging. I'm not interested in proving anything on this site by having a "great record," I'm interested in playing fun games against people. I don't see what's fun about repeatedly beating a four year old at chess. Sure, you'll have a "perfect record", but I'd personally rather lose a bunch of games to someone who is just slightly better than me. I'd have a terrible record, but I'd have a blast.

[archaebob]

There's no situation like the one you are describing in mafia, Hrezs. This is a game of writing, and people. Being thrashed by someone 1000x times better than me would be an incredible experience in mafia. Can you imagine how kickass their writing would have to be? It'd be worth it just to be able to read the game over and over again after.

Listen people, this is a

website

. How good your record or your reputation is on this site is of zero consequence to anything outside of playing this game. I play mafia here because it's the most amazing game I've ever played; the amount of depth and strategic complexity that emerges in these threads is incredible. If I ever have the opportunity to play with someone who is literally three or four times as good as me, then there is no fucking

way

I'm going to night kill them N1.

Maybe N2.