Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[MagnaofIllusion]

/confirm

Welcome to those of you I know (which is Mindgamer and nopoint, if but just barely)

Greetings to those of you I don't (that's the rest of you )

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know, I had two ways I was thinking of going with my early vote.

1. Voting either Mindgamer or Chia for the time honored "Last to Confirm is Scum" joke.
2. Voting for Tasky for his "Let's kill the Mafia" pre-game cheerleading.

But instead I'll

VOTE: Lemon

A. You don't have an avatar. Make our lives easier, please.
B. You've basically claimed in your first Day 1 post. I hate that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ye gods ... I retract the second portion of my statement RE: Lemon.

This will teach me to post while tired.

Young if you think I'm picky in that post you are in for a treat* once we get things moving.

* Full Disclosure - Your definition of treat may vary from mine.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lemon, can we "hate" on you for the irony of your interesting language choices in that last post in conjunction with your criticism of Zang's spelling?

Also, Mindgamer needs to stop lurking in his QT and post his usual scum-tells in thread so we can get to lynching him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just because my vocabulary is varied (cat speak to standard English), doesn't mean you can attack me. And what if his scum-tell is his lurkiness?

First anyone can attack you for any reason they choose. Whether the attack is valid or not is another matter.

Second Self-Inconsistancy (in relation to actual game issues) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent. Regardless I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

My post re: Mindgamer is a direct reference to the game we played together (Newbie 912) and nothing more.

Lemon, do you find lurking to be a scum-tell?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Second Self-Inconsistancy (

in relation to actual game issues

) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent. Regardless

I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

well... I do agree with you that self-inconsistancy is a huge scum-tell, but if and

only if

it's related to the game itself... not if it is related to something like grammar.
just wanted to point out that logical fallacy, done on purpose or not

I've bolded my initial post to highlight where I say exactly what you are attempting to explain in your first sentance. What purpose do you have in making a point that was already made in the post you quoted?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

Why should we need to be careful? Mafia in this forum is no different from Mafia in the Newbie forum on a general basis, differences in roles and flavour aside.

I think it's a scumtell if a person is the 3rd or 4th person to vote. However, hammering is a towntell (according to the wiki and second-hand accounts).

Reliance on the ‘Wiki’ as anything other than a useful reference is bad Town play, and borders on being an Appeal to Authority. Vote position isn’t inherently scummy and hammering isn’t inherently a Town-tell. If you are scum please continue to play as dictated by the ‘Wiki’, it will make Town’s job easier. If you are Town don’t and look at the context and potential motiviations for player actions.

Sorry

Why did you feel the need to apologize to ACM? His opinion is not ‘black letter law’ as to how Mafia should be played.

But now we have three people at L-5. It's about a 1/4 chance at least one of them are scum.
The chances that at least one of the scum had been voting on right now. We need to focus on those people's agurments (including me, unfortunately for me).

Are you saying we should be looking only at the L-5 players? Because I’d prefer that we focus on people’s player regardless of their current vote status.

And your acknowledgement that your arguments have been bad (which is very true IMO) sets off my scumdar.

UNVOTE: Lemon
VOTE: Chihu

but I do belive that bandwagoning is more the thing a mafioso does when game progresses, since then, losing the option of hiding behind randomness and initial disinformation, he has to do something... and the last remaining thing (except lurking...) which does not imply own, new, fresh thoughts is bandwagoning

Why can’t scum provide ‘new, fresh thoughts’?

ok, uh, I was kind of kidding about voting for Tasky before, but I think the "bandwaggon-starters-are-evil" approach is kind of aggressive so I'm gonna keep my vote where it is. Not because I think it's scummy, exactly, but aggressive voting kind of rubs me the wrong way

You have explicitly transitioned your vote from a RVS vote to something serious with this post. Do you make a habit of voting for things that annoy you which you admit are not scummy?

It's just that, in my experience,

it's bad to have someone who votes aggressively, because they're likely to really latch onto a target and ignore scumtells from other people.

How do I know? That's exactly the way I used to play. I'd like to say _explicitly_ that I don't think aggressive voting is scumtell so I'm not accusing him of being mafia (though it could be SK or something). I'm just saying it rubs me the wrong way.

Emphasis added. Your logic here, as has been pointed out already, is completely wrong. You are trying to attribute the nature of tunnelling to Tasky’s vote-hopping.

Why do you assume your personal playstyle that involved aggressive voting should be a good template by which to judge Tasky? Why do you think a Mafian would not vote that way but a SK would?

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

You rather explicit point of view here doesn’t allow for different playstyles. There are any number of players on site who play in what appears to be an erratic style and can effectively scum-hunt doing so. Are you inflexible on your views of what ‘proper Town play’ is?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First to everyone (including Tasky) – please answer questions b,d, and e that Tasky posed. I’ll start –

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

– This is a pointless WIFOM exercise.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

– I’m very analytical and tend to post in large chunks, as should be obvious by now.

c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?

– We realistically have cleared RVS at this stage so this serves no purpose.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? –

Forming wagons is an important part of the daytime play in finding scum. They provide a myriad of information. Jumping on a wagon with little to no reasoning is generally scummy, especially when repeated.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

It’s best made as short as possible. Content is better than randomness. That said you can gather information from RVS actions.

@Magna Way to rag on me for something I more or less retracted.

Whether you retracted it or not really isn’t relevant. You made a horrible argument. If you had put serious thought into it the flaws should have been readily apparent.

as somebody already said, only scum (well, and masons or similar things) can act coordinated in mafia, for townies that's just plain impossible

Blatantly untrue. Town can get a group of players who have strong Town reads together and work in a coordinated fashion. It only tends to be useful in larger games but it can happen.

each fresh, new thoughts help the town by adding information to the discussion in one way or another... so, scum can either try to say something irrelevant or even anti-town and masking it up as a logical argument (the one I classify as fresh, new thought) or they have to do something which takes away the burden of having to contribute actively, e.g. bandwagoning

I think you are greatly underestimating the ability of scum to present cogent, credible arguments based on poor Town play.

Hi, sorry I haven't posted yet. I'll read the pages and catch up, will reply after 12 hours.

At this point could you get the cat to walk across your keyboard. That would likely be better content than you’ve so far presented.

@Clockwork – Why are you defending Chi with the Newbie Card. It doesn’t work here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think I'll come to the defense of Chi to the newbie card. Firstly, we're SCUMHUNTING. His mistakes scream more newb than scum. Attacking him would only rid him from the game and prove useless to the town in the long run.

You seem to be confused. Newbie is not a game alignment. Scum is. I don’t give any leeway to players outside of the Road to Rome for what you are calling “newb” play. The place for that is the Newbie cue. Once you venture from Newbie’s friendly confines I assume you are confident in your ability to play the game. Mistakes made are mistakes made and worthy of examination.

I’ll state it plainly once again … bad play is bad play. You may blindly believe that it can only be attributed to Newb Town play if you wish. I will not.

Please explain what you mean by “attacking him would only rid him from the game”. Do you mean he’s likely to replace out? Do you mean by lynch? In either case how do you assume it will prove ‘useless’ to Town in the long run. Are you stating you know Chi’s alignment?

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting.

So you find it scummy to actively post? Your basis for Mafia theory is certainly different than mine

In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio.

I’m going to address concerns and question players as much as I like. It’s called scum-hunting. Your use of loaded phrases like “spreading of blame that almost nears contempt” is noted. I’m going to ‘attack’ every player in the game. I’m looking for scum. Prodding their thinking, motivations and posts is how I do that.

Please back up your statement that I “erratically” attacked RA. I see nothing erratic at all. If anything it appears another attempt by yourself to use loaded phrasing.

Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

Funny that you state that the Mafia know who their enemies are. This post by you, if anything, looks like a Chainsaw defence for Chi.

Chi definitely seems more careless and newblike than a mafia. Unless this is a new mafia strategy, he feels more newb town, referencing the wiki.

Look up Razorback in Newbie 914 if you want a perfect example of why newb-style play does not indicate alignment. And the Wiki is not a bible of Mafia truth. It’s a handy reference. Appealing to the Wiki’s authority is not Pro-Town.

It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

If it was effective at diverting attention you wouldn’t be making your poorly reasoned attack, would you? If you can come up with some reasonable support for your assetion that my play is scummy please bring it up and I’ll address them. Otherwise your “Too Town for Town” argument is just a WIFOM exercise.

I look forward to your future attacks on other Pro-Town players

I really think a) should be answered, at least for interest... I just want to hear the truth... you like playing scum, tell it; you like playing townie, say it...

Regardless of what you want to hear what scum-hunting purpose does it serve? You aren’t going to get any useable evidence formt he responses. It’s simply busywork.

well... this is definitely not going to happen in early game where each townie is on it's own... of course later in the game townies will start to form "groups of trust" but they can never be totally sure of them (except aforementioned masons or something related to cops) and so the effectivity drops... and, btw, this does not have to happen, in my experience this happens rarely

You said it was impossible. That’s clearly wrong. It may not happen often but I have seen it used effectively in games of all sizes on this and other sites.

well ok... but you are assuming town is playing poorly... isn't it obvious that a poor playing town will lose?

When I say poor Town play I mean individual players, not the group as a whole. One or more players playing in a scummy manner can give Scum plenty of chances to display Pro-Town style “scum-hunting”.

Nopoint and RA

– we could really use some solid input from both of you.

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EDT until Tuesday for the holiday weekend. I probably will be able to check the thread but may not be able to post significantly in that time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from my 4th of July Family activities –

Alternatively, someone who has no votes.

Why, if the vote is arbitrary, would it matter if said vote recipient had a vote already or not? This is the sort of caution embodied by Mafia, not Town.

Tasky, you are attacking players based on their answers to the question, specially those who has thinks you are a scum. Don't you think this is something?

Aside from the grammatical issues that render this post mainly incomprehensible I ask you – why is attacking players based on answers scummy? Mafia is a game of information and motive.

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

As stated above regarding Retro this is a level of caution that I find indicative of scum.

I would join a pressure wagon, if there is countless evindence that the person is scum. But I won't self-hammer myself, unless I'm a jester (which is considered an unhonorable role, so it's not likely I'd ever be a jester).

The idea behind a pressure wagon is to provide evidence that someone is scummy via response. So your assertion that you’d only join that type of wagon after evidence is provided makes no sense.

What relevance does your self-hammering statement have to the question? Are you stating you are scummy and worthy of a vote? And what about the “unhonorable” nature of a jester role makes it unlikely you would not randomly be assigned the role?

Unfortunately, I don't have any vaild reasons to vote for any of the wagons right now. But it seems like you are leaning towards Lemon, am I right? (I might be wrong).

So you aren’t going to scum-hunt. Gotcha. Also, your pandering for a direction to place you vote is also noted.

Wow, there seem to be a relationship between Tasky and AClockworkMelon. Relationships usually means scum, or masons.

I bet scum, but it would be rash for me to vote for one of them right now.

We are over a week real-time into the game. Voting based on something you see as solid evidence would not be rash. You’d rather have a RVS vote hanging on someone (which you admitted your vote on NoPoint is) rather than vote for someone you think is scummy? This is further caution that I feel is unwarranted.

And please elaborate on what “relationship” you think you are seeing between ACM and Tasky.

I'm going to mimic Minii's vote on Chihuahua and his FOS on Tasky.

VOTE: Chihuahua

Scummy.

Maybe you're looking for an easy lynch but I don't think you'll find one here.

This post basically acknowledges that you are active lurking. Asserting that you are playing in a scummy fashion isn’t a valid defence against a case.

Furthermore I don’t like that your post with content at 174 only comes after you’ve been called out for active lurking. Reactive play is a scum-tell in my book.

I would do the same seeing as to how fast the Chi wagon seems to be moving despite its flawed evidence.

1. Three votes over 5 real life days hardly qualifies as a fast wagon. Why are you attempting to paint it as such?
2. Please provide support for your assertion that evidence against Chi is flawed. I’ve yet to see anything directed at him that is qualifies as flawed. You yourself point out in 157 that Chi is not approaching the questions from a Town perspective.

This is not how it works Tasky, you haven't even given Chi a chance. The fact that you're trying to take the easy road to get somebody quicklynched really bothers me.

Another post that uses tainted language in an attempt to discredit someone. Chi has hardly been the target of a quicklynch. In fact that heavy defence of his scummy play by multiple players indicates quite the opposite.

What I am saying is that kill him through lynch. Perhaps he may lead us astray with his newbiness, but more likely, it intuitively feels more like newb Townie mistakes than anything. Are you going to policy kill him on this basis?

Your inherent assumption that invalidates this entire line of questioning is that Chi is Town. Unless you know for certain that fact your continual efforts to paint his scummy play as “Newb” (which once again IS NOT AN ALIGNMENT) and to paint any attempt to lynch him as a “Policy lynch” are at best Anti-Town.

So Mafia can't act incredibly or out of the ordinarily active to trick the town?

Can you substantiate that my activity in this game is “out of the ordinary”? If not you are simply using the “Too Townie” fallacy, which is scummy.

I see it as instead of possibly getting rid of a scum, or focusing our suspicions elsewhere, we focus on his newb play.

More unfounded statements.

1. How again is focusing on Chi’s scummy behaviour not scum-hunting?
2. Can you support the inference that I’m focusing solely on Chi? You are attempting to portray my play as Tunneling.

But in the best case, we get a scum. I think we should push for the best case.

Yet your posts to the point of Post 155 consist of defending Chi and doing some awkward attack on me. You aren’t even voting for anyone. If you truly believed what you said you would be making a case and actively voting for someone.

Except, the Mafia knows who their enemies are. Hence they probably could have influenced all the L-5 wagons, thus making them less random.

You keep stating that the Mafia “knows who their enemies are” as if it is not inherent game knowledge. Why?

And honestly, at the "1> Are you Scum?" question to Chihuahua, stop overplaying it. I would bet that regardless of what answer, you guys would pick it apart. If he said he was townie or no, there would probably be some convoluted method to determine that he's lying and convict him on that basis.

This post is mind-boggling. Are you saying if he has said “No, I’m not scum” he would be attacked for that? You are so tied to your defense of Chi at this point you can’t rationally separate yourself from the argument. You are pre-judging others based on theoretically actions that never happened.

I’m going to flat out ask you (and the expected uproar over “Role-Fishing” be damned) if you have any concrete reason why you know Chi is Town.

Further, I'm getting the feeling that the chihuahua0 wagon is scum-driven. He's a ridiculously easy target, and I'm seeing some signs of a policy lynch going on. That doesn't sit well with me.

Scum driven wagon? Hmmm. At the time of this post Chi has exact three votes – myself, ACM, and Young. Which of these players is scum and why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Follow-up post for those ‘afraid” of Walls-o-Text.

At this point I’m fairly certain that a good number of scum will be found among Chi, Lemon, ACM, and Retro.

Chi continues to post in a scummy fashion.
Lemon continues to defend Chi as opposed to scum-hunting. I also don’t like that his vote has been inactive this long.
ACM’s reaction to the active lurking accusation tweaks my interest.
Retro’s reactions to the pressure aren’t Town in my eyes.

@Chevre and Mindgamer

– Your slots need more content from them, stat.

I don’t see a reason to move my vote from Chi at the moment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And to Magna, I never agreed with anyone that I was behaving scummily.

The agreement doesn’t have to be explicit to have happened. You accused someone of looking for an easy lynch when voting for you. By inference an easy lynch is directed at someone who is playing in a scummy manner. QED.

There is post #183. So, according to some of the other players, Tasky might be scum, right? But Lemon, RetroAudio, AClockworkMelon, and I are the biggist suspects.

One of us might be scum, but not all four of us.

Given that there are most likely 3 scum the second part of your sentence is pretty much a given.

But why do you assert that only one might be scum? Do you think it impossible that RA / Lemon and ACM might be scum together?

@Tasky

– You repeated justification of what vote was random and what vote wasn’t is looking more and more like poor justification for voting. Town has no reason to not stand behind their voting records.

Acting newb is different from acting scum, and basically policy lynching doesn't help us. Unless you find it does help, or can conclusively rule out newb from scum.

I don’t consider any play outside of the Road to Rome as newbie play. You venture outside those confines and play poorly you deserve to get lynched. Sink or swim. The Road to Rome is there for a reason. Even though I have plenty of experience playing elsewhere I didn’t play outside RtR until I felt certain I was well acclimated to MS. It may be harsh but it’s my standard.

You have the most posts (which is kind of a null argument), but you also have attacked the most people, and very early for insignificant slights.

Way to dodge the question. I asked if you could substantiate my activity as “out of the ordinary”. Which means something that would indicate I am scum based on how I play. Not anyone else. Furthermore I don’t know what you expect players to do. Early on the only suspicious behaviour is likely to be fairly insignificant in the long run. How else do you expect to get things going? Do you expect scum to just blurt out “Lynch me I’m Mafia”?

1. Over-focusing on basically the easiest target in this entire game. Especially as metagame shows he's really newb.
2. I'm not saying that you're tunneling. I'm saying that we're focusing on him, because he's an easy target.

1. Do you know what metagaming actually is? It’s using past performance of an individual player to determine whether they are Town or scum. What you are doing is using general Wiki-info to support your theory that Chi is Town. Also, please prove how I am over-focusing.
2. What do you mean “we” are focusing on him? You aren’t, you are defending him to the hilt when he doesn’t bother to defend himself.

Some people forget this knowledge. You can probably tell Chihuahua has.

Prove it. I see tons of assertions out of you with little support.

I don't find anybody terribly suspicious, YET. I don't like randomly throwing down my vote on the slightest suspicion or twitch.
And... I am admittedly not that great at scum-hunting. But simultaneously, I don't agree with the idea that throwing down accusations is beneficial to the town.

Your method of not voting is not Pro-Town. It’s overcautious as you appear not to want to make waves and potentially offend anyone. Town do not have any inherent reason to be so indecisive.

UNVOTE: Chi
VOTE: Lemon
You have spent the entire game defending someone and not scum-hunting. At this point I think you are scum who doesn’t have a clear idea how to ‘fake’ their scum-hunting. If anything your repeated and pointless defence of Chi leads me to believe you know he’s Town and want to reap the benefits if he is lynched.

To any potential Vigs

- If Chi is not the lynch today he should be at the top of your list tonight.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't discuss, link, or reference active games PERIOD.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod - Can we get a prod on Young (assuming he's not V/LA, didn't see one) and Chevre (who has yet to post since replacing in on Monday)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That reminds me ...

Welcome Quoi

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just sticking my head in to say I'll have some content later tonight or early tomorrow.

I have some family activities to take care of this afternoon and evening and want to be sure the issues I want to address get the proper attention.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry for the delay …

@Tasky

- Your exercise at 244 wouldn’t provide any positive scum-hunting effects. Theoretically exercises are not generally that effective.

@MagnaofIllusion: Looks like I'm the VI, again.

That you decided to respond to my questions with this self-pity filled junk makes me a bit angy.

ATTENTION CHI –

Answer the questions below in your next post or you’ve won my vote and my concerted effort to lynch you for the rest of the Day.

But why do you assert that only one might be scum? Do you think it impossible that RA / Lemon and ACM might be scum together?

On to other topics –

And now you have stated it yourself, it is effectively a policy lynch. Not everyone is you, and policy lynching doesn't help us.

If lynching someone for scummy play is a policy lynch then EVERY LYNCH IN THE GAME IS ONE.

No, but you even attacked

unsuspicious behaviour

. I can't indicate you are scum, but I will say that I don't completely trust you for your play. And no, I do not expect scum to blurt it out, but I don't expect scum to act inherently scummy.

Why not act pro-town to shake off suspicions?

Regarding your first sentence I am attacking people for behaviour I find suspicious. That you don’t think the same is of little consequence to me. Your judgement is not the Alpha and Omega of what is suspicious and what is not.

The inherent contradiction of the bolded parts makes me chuckle. Attacking unsuspicous behaviour is bad. But you are attacking me in saying I’m acting to Pro-Town. Isn't the definition of Pro-Town not suspcious?

Active lurking would make me appear overcautious, but last I checked I wasn't.

Active lurking is not the only way to play in an overcautious manner. Nice strawman. You are overcautious, as I stated in part because you refuse to utilize your vote this far into the Day. In general Town’s strongest weapon is voting. That you don’t feel the need to use yours indicates you are worried about committing to votes and leaving a trail that can be followed. Scummy.

2>

It's not logically flawed.

Chi would be found most scummy by my book. However, a notice of Chi's joining date and his proclivity towards unseriousness really drove my scum read on him towards null-read. I would like a more thorough read on him and if and he improves to decide if he really could be scum.

Emphasis added. If you don’t think the evidence is flawed why did you say it was in this previous post?

3> I personally think Lemon's defense for Chi is justified. I would do the same seeing as to how fast the Chi wagon seems to be moving despite

its flawed evidence.

The opposite of what? If there were more people like you around, Chi would've been quicklynched already and regardless of how he flips, we lose valuable Day 1 info. With all due respect to your play, just don't expect everyone to behave like you.

The opposite of a quick-lynch, of course. You are making up arguments to support that his wagon is “too fast” when fast is exclusively a function of the time it takes to amass votes. Chi never got more than what, 3 votes? And they certainly didn’t come in quick succession. So I don’t by for a second any argument that his wagon is going “too fast” or “can’t be on a scum”.

Your assertion that Chi would be quicklynched by “people like me” is completely incorrect. Can you find evidence where I have ever quicklynched anyone? If not stop making crap up.

I don’t expect everyone to play like me. What in the hell is the point of that sentence?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm really starting to get disheartened by the amount of replacements this game has suffered.

We currently have 2 slots with minimal contribution (Mindgamer and Young) and two more slots that replaced out while being top suspects (Chi and Lemon, IMO).

It's incredibly difficult to effectively scum-hunt when 33% of the game is idle.

After Mafia 951 I'm wary as to whether this game is going to collapse.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome to SV and Redtail!

This somewhat alleviates my concerns shown in my prior post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dropping a note to say the following items -

Yeah for replacements so quick - welcome to anyone I missed.

I'm waiting to see SV's input and I'll post something of significance afterwards.

MOD - I'll be LA for the weekend for my usual family duties but will be keeping an eye on the thread and should be able to post with content at least once.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't see the point of this so I will not do it. My position stands clearly in that I would lynch Chi if he's not being exponentially helpful soon. The reason why I am defending Chi right now is I think there are better place to find scums. Policy lynch is always my last resort.

Unvote, vote: Chihuahua

These appeared in the same post. A post in which he directed not a single question to Chi and also didn’t comment on any of Chi’s posts directly. I don’t think I can find a more clear-cut case of Cognitive Dissonance.

UNVOTE: Esp
VOTE: NoPoint

FTR: I'm not terribly opposed to lynching Tasky. I hate doing it while he's gone, but then he shouldn't've been so scummy, now, should he have been?

You aren’t terribly opposed to his lynch? Are you enthusiastic about it? Are the points on top of the fence painful to sit on? You later vote based on his not being replaced certainly makes your first sentence seem forced.

@Quoi

– The points being made about your lack of comment on just about every player but nhammen’s slot are carrying a good deal of weight with me.

@Chevre

– Your V/LA should be complete. I'd like something concrete please.

If a player is confirmed Town, but is playing badly, should he be lynched?

If a player is highly likely to be Town, but is playing badly, does he deserve to be lynched?

If player A is more likely to be Town than player B, but player A is playing worse than player B, which player should you lynch?

In other words, where do you draw the line with this "standard" of yours?

Bold – How is the player confirmed?
Underlined – How do you define highly likely?
Italics – Again, how are you defining more likely?

I define my ‘standard’ by the in-game play of the player. If a player is playing in what I see as scummy I will pursue them. Bad play in the context of the original quote is synonymous with Scummy.

My question to you - Why post theoretical situations with ill-defined premises as support for your question as to what my ‘Standard’ is? Why didn’t you just flat out ask?

You are? I haven't seen you cite any meta anywhere. Although, I cut out the rest of this quote, because I agree tha Lemon's "case" was pretty awful, and your points against it were good.

I’m not citing meta. I don’t understand why you think I was. I was pointing out to Lemon what meta is in the context of it’s everyday use here at MS. I personally don't subscribe to meta as a very convincing and useful tool.

Preview edit based on the cross-post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry for the delay in posting (which no-one seemed to notice, oddly). Work and home-life bogged down my time and I’ve neglected my duties. Bad Magna.

Anyhooo .. on to comments.

And notice. Throughout this entire time that he is attacking chi's play, and trying to get people to vote chi, he himself is NOT voting chi. To me this looks like scum that wants to go for the easy target, but not look like they are going for the easy target. In fact, he has been pushing the chi case harder than the case he is currently voting for!

Of all the points posted against Tasky I find this particular point to be by far the most damning, if supported by Tasky’s vote record. I’ll have to dig into that after I catch up.

In general I’m also going to be interested in looking at the players who’ve attacked Tasky for his playstyle to see if they defended Chi for similar reasons (Newb-style). Anyone falling into that category will need attention.

Now, I know that the Tasky bandwagon is rolling. And, for many reasons already explained, I am also suspicious of Tasky, and would be perfectly satisfied if that was the lynch. But this is ridiculous. I will VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

Your statement asserting that Tasky’s wagon is rolling (and thus viable) and that you find him suspicious and would be satisfied with his lynch followed by a vote for Shattered is noted.

MoI: You are correct. Is there anything specific you want me to address?

Repeated asking people to provide specific information to comment looks like a Mafian who doesn’t quite know how to fake scum-hunting. Espeonage should know exactly what I’m talking about from wolframhart’s game.

Equinox: I don't find anyone scummy enough to vote. I thought that would be obvious.

This close to deadline and you see nothing that is worthy of a vote?

This all seems like a last minute surge by possible scumbuddies Untrod and Equinox to save scumbuddy Tasky. Espeonage's votepost is also up there as well.

The OMGUS nature of the statement aside there is a nugget worth keeping in mind here – the fact that Tasky’s wagon has effectively disintegrated with no active defense from Tasky will be worth review if Chevre is the lynch and does flip non-Mafia.

And I think that your not voting him despite you having said you think he's scum (for rather limited and suspect reasons, imo)

is just a form of breadcrumbing.

If we end up lynching him, you can say "well, I never voted for him".

Bolded for emphasis. I think the term you mean is distancing, but your point regarding Chevre’s refusal to commit to a vote is valid.

@Magma: Ive already explained why that post is. Please reread so you yourself don't catch a case of Cognitive Dissonance.

Do you know what Cognitive Dissonance actually is? Responding in this manner is liken to “NO U”, which is not Pro-Town.

Anyways, the Chi ordeal is over, I don't see why we should talk about it now.

Chi replacing out doesn’t magically make his play go away. We shouldn’t ask nhammen to answer for Chi but the fact that you want to just brush off Chi’s involvement post-replacement combined with your odd leap on speaks of potential bussing to me.

Mod: Please replace Tasky. His last post was on July 18.

I'd like to hear from Tasky's replacement. In the meantime,

Why ask for a replacement directly instead of a prod? Especially given that it was only 72 hours since his last post when you suggested this.

In any case, your meta is a mighty good cover for scum... so I can't lessen my suspicion of you until I know where you're going with it.

This is the exact reason why meta should be discarded in most cases, IMO. Giving players a pass to be actively scummy by letting them escape by saying “I always play this way” is bad Town play. If you (this is a generic you not Equinox, BTW) don’t want to be perceived as scummy don’t play in that manner.

Oh and look at Tripods case while pretending Tasky is confirmed scum.

Confirmation bias. Now look at Tripod’s case on Tasky while pretending Tripod is confirmed Town.

Sometimes I do feel that it is better to just vote and let scum furthur incriminate themselves. In other cases I will make my cases. It is amazing the holes scum dig for themselves when you deny them an explaination of their wrongs..

Likewise don’t be surprised if you dig your own holes by refusing to support votes.

Btw. If Chevre is scum Tasky is a likely buddy.

Really? Enlighten me oh master. I’d suggest rather that if Chevre is Town Tasky is more likely scum. If Chevre is scum the odds of Tasky being scum with her are slim.

At that point the Tasky wagon was going nowhere and had no momentum. As I said there are 'always' more than one scum in a game.

How much momentum did he need? He had 5 votes an one point, IIRC. Even without another single vote as long as no-one else amassed more than 5 he was being lynched. We are very close to deadline. Unless you were suddenly convinced that Chevre was more scummy than Tasky logical play would be to keep your vote with the player you thought scummiest.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok now I understand that there is a large amount of confirmation bias here. In light of nhammens last little tib bit on me for the future this may look bad but I propose a derail of the chevre wagon and a move back to Tasky. i still think tasky is scum and should he not be my whole case on Chevre falls apart and I wouldn't ote for her again.

UNVOTE: Chevre
VOTE: Tasky

This waffling in the face of attention is noted for the record.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, my big post just got eaten ... rebuilding now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I find it odd that Magma was able to anticipate the possibility of non-mafia nightkiller in this game. Even more, Nhammen, Chi's replacement got killed. But I still can't figure out a possible connection this points to.

Multiple scum points for you on this post for the following reasons-

1. Classic scum argument that something is interesting / odd / unusual instead of stating that it scummy.
2. Poor argument that Vig / SK should not be expected. Here’s my list of complete Minis for consideration –

Mini 937 – Town Full Vig
Mini 938 – Town Odd-Night Vig and JOAT with 1 Shot Vig
Mini 948 – Multiple Town Weak Vigs
Mini 951 – Town 1-Shot Vig
Mini 962 – Serial Killer
Mini 955 – Town 1-Shot Vig (or regular Vig, don’t remember off top of my head)
Mini 969 – Serial Killer and Town CPR Doc
Mini 974 – Town Vig (note this game was not a standard set-up)
Mini 989 – Town Vig

So on 100% of my completed Minis there was an non-Mafian killing role. Please provide a similar list for your completed Minis showing why you would NOT anticipate a non-Mafian killing role.
3. Pointless Nightkill speculation.

You also, in my mind, get even more scum points for your poor analysis that leads to Tasky as the obvious suspect based on all three deaths.

And what motivation would a third party have in killing ACM when he's not in the least pro-town looking? I don't think we can presume anything here.

The only thing they both have in common is, ofcourse, the fact that they both pushed for a Tasky wagon.

Pro-Tip – A Vig is not a 3rd party and would have good reasons to hit ACM.

I also note further Cognitive Dissonance from you in the bolded section – your first post today was full of presumption that nhammen was the extra kill.

VOTE: NoPoint

NK speculation... depends. I think it would be a better tool in late game when things become more clear-cut. Early in the game, not so much. Scum can also use NK speculation to pretend to generate content, which is why I'm usually wary of it. /theory

QFT

I am not Vig. <- I encourage everyone else to do the same.

I see you’ve abandoned this but I want to ask anyway – what Pro-Town motiviation could you possibly have for using that particular phrase?

Vote Count Analysis –

I’m going to be looking at the vote-counts from each post by Zang in relation to Chevre and Tasky. I’m also going to go through Tasky’s ISO and list his votes in order.

Tasky’s Votes, In Order –

Espeonage – MoI – nhammen – Redtail896– Quoi – Chevre – ACM

If Tasky is scum then then let’s look at who he didn’t vote for and who he voted for early

Didn’t vote for

- NoPoint, Tripod, SV

Voted for early

– Espeonage, MoI

This is for later reference.

Vote Counts –

Those shown in blue are Town based on flips.

1 – No

Chevre

or Tasky votes

2 - Tasky - 1 - (Untrod Tripod) (L-6)

3 - Tasky - 1 - (nopointinactingup) (L-6)

4 - Tasky - 1 - (nopointinactingup) (L-6)

5 - Tasky - 2 - (Quoi, nopointinactingup) (L-5)

6 - Tasky - 2 - (Quoi, nopointinactingup) (L-5)

7 -

Chevre

- 1 - (Tasky) (L-6)
Tasky - 1 - (Quoi) (L-6)

8 - Tasky - 2 - (

AClockworkMelon

, Quoi) (L-5)

9 - Tasky - 2 - (

AClockworkMelon

, Quoi) (L-5)

10 - Tasky - 1 - (

AClockworkMelon

) (L-6)

11 - Tasky - 2 - (

AClockworkMelon

, Equinox) (L-5)

12 - Tasky - 3 - (

AClockworkMelon

, Equinox, espeonage) (L-4)

13 - Tasky - 2 - (Espeonage,

AClockworkMelon

) (L-5)

14. Tasky - 5 - (

nhammen, AClockworkMelon

, Equinox, Shattered Viewpoint,
Espeonage) (L-2)

15.

Chevre

- 4 - (Quoi, Equinox, Espeonage, Untrod Tripod) (L-3)
Tasky - 3 - (

nhammen, AClockworkMelon

, Shattered Viewpoint) (L-4)

16.

Chevre

- 5 - (Quoi, Equinox, Shattered Viewpoint, Espeonage,
Untrod Tripod) (L-2)
Tasky - 2 - (

nhammen, AClockworkMelon

) (L-5)

17 to 19. C

hevre

- 6 - (Quoi, Equinox, Shattered Viewpoint, Espeonage, Untrod Tripod,
nopointinactingup) (L-1)
Tasky - 2 -

(nhammen, AClockworkMelon

) (L-5)

But Magna you say … what does this tell us?

Unfortunately nothing immediately but it can yield some relationships to be analyzed later.

If Tasky is scum –

Who voted for him early in the Day but didn’t appear on his later wagon?

Tripod, NoPoint, and Quoi.

Who appeaered on Chevre’s wagon who was not on Tasky’s late wagon?

Quoi, Tripod, SV and NoPoint.

If Tasky is scum I’d concentrate on these players as very likely scum buddies.

If Tasky is Town –

Who was on both the late Chevre bandwagon and Tasky’s late bandwagon?

Equinox, Espeonage, Shattered Viewpoint

All three of these players were on both late bandwagons. More indepth review of the order of wagonning would be needed.

Right now with Chevre flipping Town I’m more inclined to approach from the presumption that Tasky is scum. Especially in light of the fact that all the players on Tasky's end of day wagon were confirmed Town.

A deeper look into NoPoint, Tripod and Quoi is in order.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP

-

Who appeaered on Chevre’s wagon who was not on Tasky’s late wagon?

Quoi, Tripod, SV and NoPoint.

SV should not be included in this list.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Further EBWOP -

Didn’t vote for - NoPoint, Tripod, SV

This list should also include Equinox.

[MagnaofIllusion]

4> I don't presume Nhammen was the extra kill

Actually you infer it very strongly in this statement.

I find it odd that Magma was able to anticipate the possibility of non-mafia nightkiller in this game. Even more, Nhammen, Chi's replacement got killed. But I still can't figure out a possible connection this points to.

Your first sentence directly addressed the non-Mafia killer in the game. Your second sentence then says “Even more, nhammen … got killed”. The logical train of thought is that you believe that nhammen is the extra kill.

3> It's not just Night Kill, it's also lynch and wagon speculations. I agree that speculation on NK is WIFOM-ish, but that's not what my whole argument are based on.

It’s not wagon analysis you are doing. You are routing every dead person on Tasky. Every bit of your speculation involves why said person was suspicious of Tasky. Tasky wasn’t the only person who Chevre suspected or the only person who ACM and nhammen accused. And even if he is scum only one of the Nightkills is likely to be ‘his’ doing. That you aren’t looking really at ANYONE else smells to me of a WIFOMSandwich frame job.

Doesn't both boil down to "Who didn't appear on his later wagon"? Sounds like somebody is trying to create illusions of great number here. And if you ask why, I'd answer that the Tasky wagon to me was not as reasonable as the Chevre wagon.

Since you are not grasping the logic I’ll lay it out for you.

When are scum partners most likely to vote for their buddies Day 1? If they are going to do so it will be early on when suspicions are less likely to build to a viable wagon. Let’s look at the facts.

1. You, Tripod and Quoi (or predecessors) each voted for Tasky early on when discussion was swirling. At no point during that period did he get more than 2 votes (per the vote-counts). If you were Town this would indicate you had some level of suspicion of Tasky.
2. Later on in the Day an actual viable wagon (more than 3 players) forms on Tasky. More arguments are being made against him. Yet none of the three of you (who, if Town, were at least somewhat suspicious of him earlier) join the bandwagon. Instead a counterwagon quickly forms against Chevre.

I find this behaviour pattern worth investigating. Your second sentence is another scummy attempt to discredit an attack against you with inference instead of direct action.

Don't give yourself a handful. Pressure Tasky first.

TRANSLATION

- Please don’t look more closely at me or my likely partners. We want to bus Tasky today since he’s such an easy target when V/LA.

Overall, we see Tasky as a rather emotional player and his trains of thoughts feel coherent to me. That's why I wasn't convinced Tasky was the right lynch despite a few of his contradictions in the beginning of the game. Of course, scums could very well be setting us up but Tasky's flip will reveal a lot as there are clear connections between him with various live players.

1. So all it takes is some WIFOM analysis to flip your opinion of Tasky?
2. What clear connections are you speaking of? Lynching someone you aren’t sure is scum simply to see connections to other unspoken players is classic scum motivation.

@Untrod re 525

– You’d rather discuss pointless WIFOM instead of more viable lines of discussion?

I think we are in a bit of a rut post wise until Tasky gets back. Once he does we can really kick start this day.

You could, you know, look for his partners in the meantime. Just saying “Tasky’s not here, nothing I can do” doesn’t cut it.

@Redtail

– You’ve done some questioning with little followup today. I’d like to ask again … why were you fence-sitting Tasky yesterday?

@Equinox

– You’ve been active with not a lot to say today. I’m not sure I like that development.

@SV

– More catch-up posts?

@Quoi

– If you aren’t scum please don’t be an absolute anchor on Town. Get your ass in here and contribute.

MOD

- I'll be LA for the rest of the weekend for family duties. Will return Monday in the AM.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First, welcome Tazaro.

My apologies; it's very late and I need sleep. If not tomorrow (Friday), then ABSOLUTELY over the weekend.

Promise.

Promise failure.

I wasn't voting for Tasky yesterday because I though that the wagon was strong, and I wanted to focus my attention elsewhere. Basically, this translates into the vote and pressure on SV. By the time that was done, the Chevre wagon had picked up far more steam, and the Tasky wagon had disbanded.

1. Do you believe Tasky to be scum?
2. What did you accomplish by ‘pressuring’ SV?

I think that the voting analysis isn't so applicable in the case of my player slot as we have no way of telling whether or not my predecessor would have stuck with his suspicion of Tasky had he still been playing. It's not as though anybody here backed off from Tasky as we approached the later stages of the day; I just happened to find chihuahua scummier than RA found him, having replaced in during the time in question.

That said, the analysis is very useful in pointing out nopoint, and as MoI is showing, nopoint is trying to get out of it by WIFOMing and supporting a Tasky lynch. I think that he deserves my vote right now.

Indicate how you ‘didn’t back off Tasky’. You never voted for Tasky after jumping off him while you were the second vote.

Why is my analysis useful regarding NoPoint but not Tripod? Is it simply that you are just going to piggy-back on whatever vote or wagon seems strongest?

At least have Tasky flip before you WIFOM into buddies and buddies and beyond. And I already gave my reason as to why I had an initial suspicion of him but didn't jump on his wagon later on, read my Iso.

Another round of Cognitive Dissonance from NoPoint. Notice in the quote above that he is asserting that my suggestions are WIFOM. Then we get point 1, below -

1. It's not WIFOM. In fact things rarely feel WIFOM-ish to me. I analyze people with psychology rather than logic.
2. No one is saying we should lynch Tasky while he's still on V/LA Magma. Connections huh? There are plenty. If Tasky flip town, you are more likely scum for instance. But I will not speculate further when there are no flips in a foolish attempt to open my mindmap to scums before their NK.

So when others conjecture it is WIFOM to be ignored. When you do so it’s astute psychological analysis. I’m agree with you from the standpoint that you don’t analyze people with logic. I don’t see any.

And I’m certainly not sold on Tasky as scum. I’m much more interested in you right now. Tripod, Quoi and SV are also running high on my interest list.

Where is everybody?

Complaining about a lack of content while not providing new content yourself is ironic. If you were town I'm sure you'd try a little harder to look for more than just 1 Mafian at a time.

More votes on NoPoint please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magma: For as long as you still consider me Cognitive Dissonance with your confirmation bias, I will not reply to your irrelevancy.

So you are going to take your ball and go home, huh. How quaint. Then again if you can’t counter my points this is the only thing you can do.

Also, Magna, in response to your assertion about me being an early-game voter for Tasky and using that to draw some kind of line between me and Tasky, I would have to say that I voted for him because I thought he would be a foamy-mouthed crazed vote-hopper. He stated a fair and intelligent defense of his strategy and since then I've (rather vocally, I might add) been of the opinion that his behavior, which has been used as evidence that he's scum, seems pro-town to me. So I unvoted him. End of story.

Declare it the end of story if you wish. Your explanation fits quite well, as I explained, with the kind of behaviour scum-buddies tend to have towards one-another. So you'll stay on my radar.

I must say I'd really dislike this post on day 1 since I really had the feeling ACM was scum. But since ACM flipped town, I think this post is somehow pro-town. Scum wouldn't pull a townie out of the dirt in a situation where they are looking scummy.

Actually scum have every reason to support the position that a Townie who appears scummy is Town. It’s called positioning building Town cred. If ACM comes under fire and is lynched they can say “I didn’t think he was scummy” and attack those Town on the wagon. Your position that scum ‘wouldn’t’ do something is WIFOM.

They would either defend me outright to get towncred, or attack me one way or another.

More WIFOM. Also, doesn’t this directly contradict your assertion made in the previous statement?

were those questions really necessary? are you sure you didn't just want to make nhammen look stupid?

Yes the questions were absolutely necessary! Nhammen replaced into a slot I had a huge scum-read on. I needed to get a read fairly quick on him as the end of day was approaching. The questions and our back and forth gave me the information I needed.

what exactly is your conclusion from all your vote count analysis?

Do you understand the point of a vote-count analysis? It gave me two discrete sets of players in whom I think I we will find the majority if not all of the scum. Which set the scum likely lie in is driven by your alignment.

@Tasky

– What is your opinion of Tripod’s 525?

Ok now. I am harbouring a few secret reads. At the moment there are 5 scum. Two are big reads and one backs the pother up. Chevre. Prove to me that the other reads are the ones to follow.

Now that Chevre flipped Town you need to be providing this list of ‘secret reads’ pronto.

@Redtail

– Explain how the following are scummy in relation to 552 –

1. Vote-hopping – I see what you are explaining there but many players on site use that style of play effectively in scum-hunting.
2. Being willing to question players other than a top suspect (who would be your current vote)
3. Having a view of players that shifts as new posts are made?

@Shattered

– After your absence and repeated ‘I’ll catch-up’ posts 554 is what you have?

[MagnaofIllusion]

#559. Though, it's always a pleasure to show how ridiculous walls of texts are.

Not more ridiculous than content free one-liners

[MagnaofIllusion]

No I'd gladly counter anything I see relevant

So Cognitive Dissonance isn’t relevant? Why then was a large portion of your ‘Tasky’ case based on self-inconsistency? Pro-Tip – that’s what Cognitive Dissonance is.

My vote stays right where it is thank you very much.

honestly, no... I didn't understand that... how exactly do you get those sets? could you elucidate a little?

I’m going to give a brief explanation but it should be readily apparent if you read the summary of my post.

Quoi, NoPoint and Untrod all voted for you early in the day but when your wagon gained momentum none of them joined in. If you are scum this looks like classic early distancing from at least 1 partner.

Tazaro, Espeonage and SV all were on both your and Chevre’s wagons late. If you are Town then I suspect that one or more of them were scum looking for any easy lynch target at the end of the day.

I don't think it's about the content. It looks like he wants to make us think about the night-kills, which isn't bad, I think.
What do you think? why are you asking me about that post in particular?

Stating that the best place to being looking for scum is in the Nightkills is scummy. Nightkill analysis is WIFOM-laden at best.

I asked you about it because you suddenly have a strong Town read on Tripod and wanted to get a sense of how that post factored into your read.

2. Questioning other players is not scummy. But it was clear to me that Chihuahua was his top suspect. And he wasn't voting for him.

It certainly wasn’t clear to me. Pressuring players as to their rationales and limits when dealing with Chi (a VI player) is clearly focusing scum-hunting on others.

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EDT today until Monday morning for normal family weekend duties.

@MOD – Can we get a prod on Quoi?

[MagnaofIllusion]

omg... you are right...
I don't know how, but I was convinced that was about SV...

well, the point still holds so:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Espeonage

This is scummy. If the crux of your argument is solely that post then you should be bringing more to the table.

What town person says this?

Did you bother to read for context? Espeonage was posting the ‘I give up’ comment in conjunction with some sort of gambit / strategy he was trying to gather support for and was failing.

Well, it was a subtle point, but I do think scum have more interest in action than townies. Townies may be more uninterested.

Only if they are bad Townies. Please stop serving heaping bowls of WIFOM.

Regarding your Redtail vote – it is pure OMGUS. Saying that he is attacking a weak player is poor defense. You’ve personally erased every bit of positive view I had on the slot due to Equinox’s play.

What about Redtail’s vote (which is the only one, BTW) immediately makes him more scummy than Espeonage, who was your previous case de’jour? You have stated that he needed to defend against the stronger cases against him.

The Espeonage Wagon: So, can somebody provide be a basic summary. Most of it seems to be focused on Esp's flipping between Tasky and Chevre, and many of those posts Esp claims were taken out of context. Is the claim that Esp was rapidly flipping between 2 town wagons, trying to make one stick?

I can see Esp as being scum for two major points, 1 of which he really can’t defend against.

1. His predecessor Lemon’s over-the-top defense of Chi.
2. His placement on both late wagons (Chevre and Tasky), augmented by his reaction that I pointed out as waffling at the end of the day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Redtail: What is your view of Espeonage?

This is your catch-up post?

since you think that Espeonage is scum (your last vote is on him after all), that implication shouldn't worry you...

It should worry him. You aren’t establishing why he’d be scum if Esp is Town. Based on my vote count analysis I find that Taz is more likely to be Town if Esp is Town. If anything this looks like lining up lynches ... which I think is scumtastic.

I already posted that SV and Espeonage were my top suspects... UT's post made me go in one direction instead of the other.

I saw that post. Here are some questions / comments to you about it.

1. Quoting someone and responding with ‘You are scum’ is not building a case. You do make some more illuminating points against Esp but nothing of significance I can see against SV. How did he earn a top Scumread from you?
2. How can you have Equinox be one of your biggest Townreads and then make a statement that if Esp (one of your strongest Scumreads) is Town he is scum?

Things that are troubling –

bad, very bad... you seem to be very interested in the claim... the L-1 argument is nonsense, since at deadline Chevre would die anyway... you voting is not going to make a claim better, since it's less probable enough townies can get off the wagon in case the claim is credible... I think you just wanted to lynch

Horrible logic. The point of putting Chevre at L-1 and asking for a claim is to prevent the mislynch of a Town PR. If she claimed Cop, for example, the wagon could be shifted to another scummy candidate.

what exactly were those points?

NoPoint clearly laid out his case at 523.

what do you give up?

As I said to Taz … why aren’t you reading for context. Esp was clearly giving up his request that everyone say ‘I am not Vig’ shown at ISO 31.

UNVOTE: NoPoint– since no-one seems likely to join me on NoPoint I’m not going to keep my vote unproductive any longer. It will likely go to either Tasky or Esp at this point pending Tasky’s response to my points in this post and Esp’s response to Tasky’s case on him.

@MOD

– Any news on the Quoi replacement?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome boberz –

I am in yeah! Just gonna catch up, wont be too long.

Awaiting your input as that slot has greatly underperformed.

2. I don't remember saying anything of the sort, could you quote the post?, I can't find it. And what exactly is the contradiction you see?

It is in the big catch-up post you made.

the logic holds... as a townie, he should just have asked for a claim, since Chevre would die anyway at deadline if nothing changed, so the threat was real anyway (no need for L-1). But should Chevre claim a PR, it would be easier to get the wagon from tracks with one less vote on it since no-absolute-majority isn't enough to avoid the mislynch.

Your logic doesn’t hold. Firstly just because the rules allow for a deadline less than majority lynch doesn’t mean you should change the established play norms regarding asking for claims. I would have been very suspect if someone not voting for Chevre (when she wasn’t at L-1) asked for a claim, regardless of the deadline status. Second your ‘one less vote’ makes no sense as the player in question is going to have to actively vote for someone else if the leading vote-getter claimed PR. Whether that person’s vote is inactive or on Chevre it has to be move regardless.

he did that after making the post I was responding to there...

But his post where he lays out his thoughts is BEFORE your post questioning him. I don’t care if it is a big catch-up post. Your question seemed like an attempt to undermine his vote on you. You should have seen his post where he explained his reasons before you posted your catch-up. Asking people to repeat previously stated cases without refuting them is a minor scum-tell in my eyes.

do you think Nopoint is more or less scummy than me or Esp?

There is no scummy continuum that governs who is more scummy than who else in my eyes. If I express the inclination to vote for you (out of RVS) it means I think you are scummy enough to be scum. Case closed.

Ok rereading the three cases on me took a whole 2 minutes. We have Tazaro who has a case based on out of context posts, tasky who's case is solely based on the assumption I was lying about not knowing when deadline was and then UT who didn't even make a case he just voted me as an aside in a very short post.

Ok well running under the assumption that people are correct in that if I am town Tazaro is scum then VOTE: Tazaro because I am town.

1. Your vote based on that flawed logic is looks like a pretty weak bus attempt.
2. Tasky’s case is certainly not based solely on timing. I found your flip-flop scummy Day 1.
3. UT’s post certainly was more than just a short post with a case.
4. I’ve seen this sort of behaviour from you before. Mafia in Murietta anyone?

Everyone has secret reads. Those are the reads that people don't share. You say 1 person is scummy you still have 11 secret reads. If they werew worth posting then I will post them. If you have a feeling but no evidence are you going to post it? No you're going to keep it to yourself until you have reason to reveal it.

By repeating that you have ‘secret reads’ you lose any defense that revolves around others having them also because no-one else is spouting that they have secret reads they aren’t going to share. Additionally your secret reads included scum-reads as suggested when you requested Chevre ‘change your mind’ about which set you should vote for.

Combined with Lemon’s play I think I’m going to favor your lynch today.

VOTE: Espeonage

Well, as my vote on Espeonage was based on appeal to popularity and Espeonage has pointed out Tasky and UT as both having no cases, I will not follow them anymore:
UNVOTE

You are openly stating that your vote for Espeonage is based on a logical fallacy? Esp’s response to Tasky’s case alone is not impressive, and your willingness to shift for the most ridiculous reasons makes my read on your slot continue to approach pure scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not voting for Espeonage. I want to see who's on his bandwagon if he's lynched.

Sigh. Your vote WAS on Esponage and you specifically removed it. Answer the question - why did you have the vote on him in the first place with the reasoning being a logical fallacy (Appeal to Majority)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Day is almost out ... I'd rather end this definitively.

Tasky's alignment will tell us where to go from here.

UNVOTE: Espeonage
VOTE: Tasky

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok Magma is scum, if that is true.

Yes, because with the rules stating that at deadline the player with the most votes is lynched. Thus it would be obviously in a Mafian's best interest to actively hammer as opposed to riding out the day

[MagnaofIllusion]

Almost forgot -

@MOD - I'll be V/LA from today at 4pm EDT until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Who killed SV? I don't know if you want to out yourself, but ??

You are seriously complaining that a Mafia Goon got killed?

More content later ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok before everyone gets too vote happy ...

There are 6 alive and at least 2 scum. We are in MYLO best case.

I'd rather not rush the Day and potentiall screw us over.

I'd suggest every Town player unvote for the moment.

Given we have a Cop claim I'd also suggest a mass claim today.

I'm not counterclaiming Esp but would like to give everyone else the chance before I proceed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's three supporting Mass Claim. If someone else supports it we should proceed.

I also suggest Taz claim next. Popcorn would suggest Taz pick the claimant after him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Current Claims -

Esp - Cop
NoPoint - Vig

Yet to Claim –

MoI
Redtail
Untrod Tripod
Tazaro

Until claims are done please stop discussing motivation and other issues. Once everyone has claimed we can sort that out.

1>I'd like the rest of the gang to claim, Tazaro next ( and Unvote on the way ).

Tazaro claim in you next post. Claim your role and any targets for N1 and N2. Otherwise I assume you are scum stalling while building a fake claim. You’ve been very active on site since you made your last post here so I see no excuse for your inaction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Continuing on ...

Esp's original request was for Taz, NoPoint and Redtail to claim in that order.

Taz and NoPoint have claimed so Redtail would be up.

I'll volunteer to go after Redtail unless Untrod wants to.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Town Jailkeeper.

N1 Target - Equinox (Tazaro)
N2 Target - Shattered Viewpoint - more on this when popcorn is complete.

Untrod's claim will finish things.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Claim Summary –

Esponage – Town Cop
NoPoint – Town Vig
MoI – Town Jailkeeper
Tazaro / Redtail / Untrod – Vanilla Town

Dead Players and Roles –

Chevre / ACM / nhammen / Tasky / boberz – Vanilla Town
Shattered Viewpoint – Goon

Thoughts on my targets –

I targeted Equinox Night 1 for two reasons -

1. He was one of my strongest Town reads so I thought he might be a good kill target.
2. He fell into my vote analysis (which I did during Night, BTW) as a potential Mafian due to his vote hopping from Tasky to Chevre. If he was Mafia his general Town cred made him a good candidate to send in a kill order (as he was likely not to be suspected).

I targeted SV because Tasky flipped Town and thus my vote-count analysis pointed to the SV / Tazaro / Esp group as strongly likely to contain scum.

Thoughts on SV dying –

When I saw the Night results go up I immediately PMed Zang to confirm he got my Night action. SV should not have died if it went through. Zang confirmed he received it.

Result – Mafia has a Role-blocker.

Further conjecture – Mafia also has a Godfather since we have a Town Cop. Given that no other information roles for Town have been claimed. Esp is Town in my eyes.

8 Vanilla Town are 2 too many in a normal game.

Expected outcome is 3 Mafian (or 2 Mafians and 1 SK), 3 Town Power Roles, and 6 Townies.

For the short term I’m not going to entertain lynching anyone who hasn’t claimed Vanilla.

I’m also trusting Esp’s scan of Untrod in the short term. Because of the Godfather possibility I’m not considering him 100% confirmed yet.

FOS- Tazaro

. Consider this a proxy for my vote. I want to go back and look over your / Equinox’s interactions and votes before I finalize it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Listens to the sounds of crickets.

Seriously there should be more activity than this given we are approaching endgame.

Firstly let me say a great thanks to whoever RBed me last night. Great decision on your part which allowed NoPoint to kill your collegue. I really want to see the Mafia QT when this is over.

Trust me, I just suck as town.

First I don’t think anyone is inclinded to ‘trust you’ regarding self-professed statements that you are Town.

Narrative – Why we don’t have a Serial Killer

I’ve taken some time to think about our situation and whether we have a SK hidden amongst us. I believe the reasonable solution is we do not. Let me lay out my thought process.

1. The only place a SK could be hiding in our fake-claims is with NoPoint. A mini game does not have enough players to support a Mafia, a Vig and a Serial Killer. So the claimed VTs (Redtail, Tazaro, and Untrod) can’t have a SK hiding in them.
2. Town has no reason to have lied about their roles at Mass-claim. If NoPoint was a Serial Killer the set-up would be

Mafia (2 to 3 members with a RB), Serial Killer, and Town (with only 2 PRs).

Two town aligned Power roles isn’t sufficient to offset a Mafia and Serial Killer in a Normal set-up (which is guaranteed to be Non-Bastard). For a taste of a properly balanced set-up involving a full Mafia and a Serial Killer in a Mini Normal set-up look here. Town had a Jailkeeper, Tracker and Cop to compensate for the additional scum strength.

Here we would only have a JK and Cop.

Discussion – How to Proceed.

Based on my narrative above we are faced with 2 remaining Mafians. As I’ve explained before all claimed Town PRs are basically cleared since no-one has counterclaimed and Town has no reason to lie about being Vanilla.

The VT claims are Tazaro, Redtail, and Untrod. Based on Esp’s cop result on Untrod he can only be a Godfather and thus can’t be a Role-blocker.

At this point with Town’s remaining PRs I think by POE we should be able to wrap this up shortly.

The lynch for today should be either Tazaro or Redtail. By POE one of them must be scum (and possibly both are). Additionally it would be best for Town to lynch the Mafia RBer today. How Town PRs proceed at Night will be based on whether the lynchee flips Roleblocker or not.

If the lynch today flips Mafia Roleblocker it’s a pretty simple process. NoPoint vigs the person we didn’t lynch and I Jailkeep Untrod. That nets us victory either directly at Night (via the last Mafian being killed by NoPoint) or no Mafia kill transpiring which by POE leaves Untrod as the last (Godfather) Mafia who is lynched Day 4.

If the lynch today flips Mafia Godfather, Mafia Goon or any other Mafia other than RB and Untrod is 100% cleared. At that point both NoPoint and myself should use our powers on the remaining suspect (whoever of Redtail or Taz wasn’t lynched). That player can’t role-block us both and thus either blocks me and dies to NoPoint or is JK by me and no Nightkills occur. We lynch that person Day 4 for the win.

If the lynch today flips VT then it becomes a much more complicated process. Under that scenario both the no-lynched candidate (Redtail or Taz) and Untrod are both scum. NoPoint and I should make sure not to announce our targets to prevent clarity on the Mafia’s part regarding who should send in the kill. Under this scenario it is possible to lose at night if the Mafia kill is not blocked or NoPoint does not vig a Mafian. If the game doesn’t auto-lose tonight under this scenario Town is more or less guaranteed a win by lynching the now identified Mafians.

All that really seems to remain is discussion regarding whether Redtail or Tazaro is more likely scum.

Anyone have any objections to the scenarios I have laid out or see any logic flaws in my thought process please point them out.

Interactions –

I’ve reviewed the following ISOs - Young / Shattered, Mindgamer / Redtail, and Equinox / Tazaro.

With SV’s slot I’m looking at who he voted when it wasn’t a productive vote (ie a weak wagon) which is potential distancing and who he never interacted with regarding Redtail’s and Taz’s slots.

For the other two I’m looking at distance voting and for other signs they might be Mafia.

Youngminii –

Votes me in RVS. Has no visible direct interaction with either Redtail’s or Taz’s slot.

Shattered –

Ask questions of Equinox at ISO 4. Futher back and forth with Equinox at 7. Note this excerpt regarding a pressure vote from Equ –

Pressure vote? (Ahh, yes, it was.) Now that I've answered your silly little questions, can you take it off, plzkthx? (And also, can you answer my questions to you? Thanks, ever so.)

In context he never directly addresses the ‘pressure vote’ that Redtail placed on him (and I questioned him about) in Redtail’s ISO ZZ

At ISO 8 responds to questions from both Equinox and Retail.

At ISO 9 responds regarding Redtail’s pointing out of his ‘fake hammer’

ISO 12 responds to a question from Equinox.

ISO 17 questions Taz regarding his need to vote.

Mindgamer –

Votes Lemon in the RVS.

Responds to criticism from Equinox regarding ignoring lurkers (which Young / SV would fall into that category) at ISO 3.

Makes the following statement regarding Young at ISO 3 –

I played over 9000 marathon games with Youngminii yesterday and I've noticed that he likes to joke around when he's town and he's usually serious when he's scum. So far Youngminii has posted in a pretty serious manner. Marathon games aren't regular games but it's worth a mention.

This reads to me as scum distancing from Young. He says he’s playing to a scummy meta but slightly undercuts it by (properly) stating that Marathon games aren’t normal. He doesn’t FOS or even further inquire of Young. Young never mentions this statement.

Redtail –

In ISO 1 gives the following reads –

Equinox: Logical and diverse in her suspicions. I like the reasoning for her votes, even when I disagree, and I especially like your unvote of ACM. You seemed to be admitting that your case no longer held water, and rather then force a case onto her, you jumped to what you thought was a better target. Verdict: Leaning Town

Youngminii: (again, not Shattered Viewpoint yet) Basically admits to letting others post most of the content early on, and seems to set herself up for not posting a lot of content. Voted Chihuahua, but never seemed to have a lot of reason why. If, as has been posited, the Chi wagon is scum motivated, she would be my pick (although she's not really motivating the wagon so much as hanging around it). Of course, if Chi was scum, then this is an early not-serious bussing attempt? I need to look at this interplay more, and we need more content here (c'mon SV) but for now, Verdict: Slightly Leaning Mafia

Interesting in that he specifically separates his Slight Mafia read on Young from SV. Reads as distancing. He’s saying the slot is scummy but is allowing SV’s play to ‘revise’ his thoughts.

For the record Redtail’s other Mafia reads are – Tasky, NoPoint, and Chi.

Minor response to Equinox’s correction of him regarding Tasky’s V/LA at ISO 5.

Waffles on Chihuahua, claims that we can't trust his D1 reads, is "not terribly opposed to lynching Tasky," (no reason given), and a couple of questions to Equinox (which I think are the best part of the post (not that that's saying much)).

Now, I know that the Tasky bandwagon is rolling. And, for many reasons already explained, I am also suspicious of Tasky, and would be perfectly satisfied if that was the lynch. But this is ridiculous. I will VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

I’ve commented on this before. Tasky was Redtail’s self-stated second strongest scum read. But when he is under significant pressure Redtail chooses to place a vote on Shattered. In context this is a very Safe distancing vote. It’s the only one on SV when Tasky was at 5 votes. Note that Redtail did not question SV once after replacing in. He responds to a post and immediately votes.

At ISO 11 Redtail responsds to comments from SV. These are the minor coaching questions I pointed out before.

At ISO 12 he unvotes SV saying that his ‘vote’ did its job. Later in his ISO he responds to my questioning of what that job was with the following

At ISO 13 points out that Equinox’s assumption that SV had hammered was incorrect.

In ISO 15 questions Equinox regarding his opinions on NK speculation.

Redtail’s responses to my questions regarding the Tasky wagon and why he voted SV –

I wasn't voting for Tasky yesterday because I though that the wagon was strong, and I wanted to focus my attention elsewhere. Basically, this translates into the vote and pressure on SV. By the time that was done, the Chevre wagon had picked up far more steam, and the Tasky wagon had disbanded. At that point, the game became more about questioning and trying to understand Chevre than it did Tasky.

I didn’t really like this explanation when he gave it. Redtail’s specifically didn’t vote for one of his top scum reads at all Day 1 (voting for SV and then moving to Chevre) yet Day 2 when questioned reaffirmed that Tasky was scum. This looks like scum trying to stay off the wagons with colleges to prevent being labelled by VoteCount analysis (as an aside it worked - my Day 1 analysis as I had both SV and Taz’s slots as possible scum if Taz was Town).

2. I'd like to think that my pressure got him posting something substantive. And for a brief period at the end of day 1, it did (SV was actually posting substantive content). However, he has fallen back to his old ways. As such, I guess my attempts to pressure him have ultimately failed. I also feel that my turning my attention to SV might have led to a weakening of the Tasky wagon, and may have ultimately led to the Chevre lynch. So, my "accomplishments" are an SV who is still lurking, and a dead townie. Go me.

Notice no-where in this explanation does the concept of SV being scum appear. His explanation of the vote was simply to pressure a lurker.

@Redtail

– Why did you not pressure other lurkers in the game like Quoi? And why didn’t you continue to call out SV?

In ISO 20 he makes a vote for Tazaro based on vote-hopping and lack of scum-hunting.

ISO 21 has a detailed response to Taz’s apparent OMGUS vote.

ISO 22 has further back and forth with Tazaro.

Also, to use Magna's voting analysis from earlier (and he's already noticed this), if Tasky is town, then Tazaro and Espeonage both being scum might make sense, as they were on both late bandwagons. SV was the third person in that group.

Telling statement. Note he labels Taz and Esp as the likely scum from my vote-count analysis and only offhand mentions that SV was in that pool.

In ISO 27 makes a throw-away to SV regarding ‘where’s he been’ with no followup.

Lastly I’d like to comment on this statement to me from today –

So, you protected SV, yet he died. Any ideas what that's about?

Reads as subtly laying the groundwork for an attack of my claim.

Equinox –

RVS votes NoPoint.

In ISO 7 responds to Mindgamer regarding their lurker back and forth discussion.

First mention of Young is at ISO 19 with the following –

AClockworkMelon. Already stated why. The other possibility is youngminii, but I haven't had the chance to look more closely at youngminii's push for chihuahua0's lynch, so I'm sitting null for the moment.

In context he was responding to a question I made regarding his assertion that a Chi wagon was scum driven with votes from myself, ACM, and Young.

In ISO 23 states again he should look at Young, among others that did not include Mindgamer / Redtail.

At ISO 41 says that Redtail has made “an interesting point” about SV while not actually mentioning what it was. Continues to say he needs to look at Young’s posts.

In ISO 44 finally looks at Young. Makes general statements that he has a lot of fluff and unhelpful posts while not specifically making assessments. Defers that to further review of SV.

In ISO 45 questions SV.

In ISO 48 votes for SV. In context this is another ‘safe’ vote for SV. It occurs during the shift from Tasky to Chevre at the end of Day 1. Looks very much like putting a pointless vote on a scum-buddy.

In ISO 65 responds to SV regarding lynching Tasky and makes the following statement –

A) No. However, I'm not willing to lynch someone who is V/LA. That's a jerk move.
B) Probably you because of youngminii. The alternative would be to shoot Chevre and lynch you.

He states that he would Vig SV based on Young’s play. Feels like further distancing from a partner that he can point to in the case that SV flips scum.

In ISO 88 (Twilight of Day 1 lynch) says to look at Esp, NoPoint and SV.

ISO 89 reads as some coaching directed at SV. He chastises him for have ‘safe’ reads and explains why that could be attacked.

Tazaro –

ISO 1 FOSes Chevre who had already been lynched the prior Day. Incorrectly states she is saying something on Day 2.

ISO 4-5 piggybacks on my case on NoPoint.

In ISO 10 attacks Tasky for voting for SV based on a post by Untrod.

In ISO 21 votes for Esp piggybacking on my, Tasky and Untrod’s cases.

In ISO 32 OMGUS votes Redtail.

In ISO 54 responds to a SV question.

Summary –

After reading all the ISO I can easily see both Redtail and Taz being scum with Shattered. Both make ‘safe’ distancing votes for SV on Day 1. Taz only interacts with SV and Redtail once during Day 2.

If I had to go based on my gut I think Redtail is slightly more likely of the two to be scum partners with SV if both aren’t.

FOS

– Redtail. This is a proxy for my vote. I want to see reaction to this massive post before voting in what is MYLO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You had a proxy for a vote for me at #713. Now in 717, you have a proxy for a vote for redtail?

Yes, that’s an accurate assessment of events. Your point? If you want to say that is scummy why don’t you present a scum motiviation for what I did.

Magna and esp I can see as being mafia buddies. There's no guarantee that there is a cop and magna as our jk has failed to actually have any effect on the night. You both aren't confirmed by any stretch of the imagination. A mafia could easily pick one of theor own and a fairly "pro town" player as their investigations and not make a splash. Just sayin.... more later

I think this has been covered but I’ll say (as others have) – if Esp and I are scum together where are the Town PRs? Normals are required to pass muster by Thesp’s review that they are indeed Normal (and thus absolutely not bastard).

Can a game potentially be set-up as 3 Mafia – 1 Town PR (Vig) – 8 Vanilla / 2 Mafia – 1 Town Power Role – 9 Vanilla? Certainly possible. Mountainous set-ups are allowed, so a near mountainous set-up is possible. Do I think it likely? Not at all.

There is certainly no requirement that you 'buy what I am selling'. That's the nature of the game. You should only trust what logically makes sense to you. That said -

Why do you not think I am a JK?

Don't feel bad. I have been burned twice by MoI to the point where in one game I decided not to replace in because I was scared of him lol. I'm not scared anymore but MoI plays a very townie scum.

For all games that are complete can you shed some light on the ‘burned twice’ comment? The only game we have played together where I was scum was Harry Potter Mafia. Is the second game Wolframhart’s Mini? In that case it hardly qualifies as burning you since I caught you as scum

And if the other game is finished I’d really like to know which game you chose not to replace into. Because I don’t have many games ongoing that have required replacement.

@EVERYONE

– Esp’s suggestion is a good one regarding suggesting a preference between Redtail and Taz for lynch. As stated before I favour (slightly) a Redtail lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI it was months ago. I think ooba was running it. I was in to replace but then saw you and was like no way.

Oh Stardust Mafia. The game I got brutally murdered N1 by lurker Starbuck. The game where I learned Jack's pointless bravado style is really how he plays as Town.

You should have joined. It was a good set-up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD - I'll be V/LA starting 4pm EDT today until Monday morning. My family is going out of Town all weekend so I will have ZERO access.

[MagnaofIllusion]

we could both be town...

And you can easily both be scum ...

Have any reasons why you both are Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm town. And it would be a kick in the pants if the two choices for lynching are both town.

This isn't a reason. This is you just saying I'm Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Tazaro

If you are a SK then GG NoPoint.

If Taz flips Roleblocker I am Jailing Untrod

If Taz flips any other Mafia I am Jailing Redtail.

If Taz flips Town who I Jail is going to be randomized.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why are you protecting Redtail if Tazaro flips godfather?

I'll explain this again.

Esp has scanned Untrod as Town.

If Taz flips Godfather Untrod cannot be investigation immune (in a non-bastard game) and thus must be Town.

That means that Redtail is by POE the last scum and Roleblocker.

We both need to target Redtail so he's left in a no win situation with who to block.

If he attempts to block you I block his block and kill. No kill occures as I stop you Vig and we lynch him for the victory tomorrow.

If he attempts to block me then we stalemate. He can likely shoot but will die from your Vig regardless of whether he shoots you or not. We win overnight.

This make sense?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@@ So .. the roleblock blocks the roleblock before the Vigkill?

I can't be certain I'm just saying what I see as worst case scenario. I don't recall seeing how Zang is handling resolutions. If his block takes precedence over mine then he blocks me and still dies. If we stalemate it's the equivalent of no roleblocks at all and he dies.

In summary if he choses not to roleblock me all his abilities should be cancelled.

If he does chose to roleblock me then either he wins and you Vig him, he loses and no kills occur or we stalemate and you Vig him. All schenarios should lead to a Town win worst case on Day 4.

Taz flipping roleblocker would make this so much easier.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The only people who know I am Town are myself and the last two Mafians.

[MagnaofIllusion]

FOS - Untrod

He was my JK target last night.

Want for NoPoint to confirm his shot last night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I think it's obvious at this point that...uh...Zang is the godfather...

vote Zang

I appreciate you taking the turn of events in stride.

VOTE: Untrod

In the back of my mind I worry that NoPoint is a BP Serial Killer.

The only two ways I realistically see that last Night turns out the way it did is

1. If Untrod made the kill attempt and Redtail for some unknown reason tried to block Esp.
2. If Redtail forewent the block attempt and made the kill on NoPoint which was absorbed by his BP status.

As I said earlier, if NoPoint is a SK then GG.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Good game everyone ... thanks for adding a win to my Town column.

It is kind of odd that all the Town power-roles ended up survivng at endgame.

Nice Vig work NoPoint. I'm impressed that despite the pressure I place on you that you kept you wits about you and didn't vig me out of spite. I now have a much better idea of how you play as Town and will use that knowledge when we cross paths again.

If scum would like to offer up their QT I'd love to read it .. I always like to see how thoughts developed as the game went on.

Redtail - did you block Esp last night?

Equinox - glad to know your replace out was for good reasons.

Zang - can we get a Night action rundown from you at some point?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Equinox I doubt very much Untrod could have made any argument that would have persuaded me to lynch NoPoint instead of him.

Worst case lynching Untrod not ending the game just makes my target for the next Night obvious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I intentionally lurked and looked scummy so the scums wouldn't night kill me xD. And there's also that awkward and scummy Vig distancing comment at the beginning of D2. Else, I'd be tunneling people like hell =).
Well good game though, I do think the Set-up is a bit unbalanced in favor of town.

Your explanation of wanting to avoid a NK is exactly why I hammered Tasky Day 2. His alignment was the lynchpin of my VC analysis (which IDed both Shattered and Untrod successfully based on Tasky's alignment) and I thought if a I made a scummy hammer it might put the idea in scum's mind that I might be mis-lynchable.

I highly disagree that the set-up favored Town. Vig / Cop / JK is nicely matched by GF / RB.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Interesting read of the scum QT.

I loved the part where Untrod called me a moron. Glad to know you couldn't even manage to send in a kill and beat the Town 'Moron'.

Untrod I'd really like to see you 'take me apart' in the future. Really. I'm looking forward to it.