Mini 992 - Mafia in Handsometown - Game Over

[AGar]

Are you a liar? Situationally
Are you a good liar? Situationally
Is the sky really blue? No. It's purple.
Pickles or Pineapples? Peppers
Would you rather be Mafia or Town? SK.

mallow, I suggest having an approach to glean something from the questions rather than just asking questions for the sake of it.

Lol quoi wagon. L-2 already, and not even page two yet.

[AGar]

Oh, and.

VOTE: Julienvonwolfe

[AGar]

AGar: why answer the questions if you have a problem with them?

Because I can't be 100% sure that he has no way to glean information from them. I'm only 99% sure of that.

[AGar]

...
Are you a good liar? Situationally
...

It's interesting that you would say that your proficiency as a liar is dependent upon the situation. How does that work?

There are some cons that are easier to pull off then others lol. Don't tell me lying to everyone is the same for you. It's a lot harder to lie to your mom than it is to lie to a professor.

[AGar]

Are you a liar? Situationally
Are you a good liar? Situationally
Is the sky really blue? No. It's purple.
Pickles or Pineapples? Peppers
Would you rather be Mafia or Town? SK.

mallow, I suggest having an approach to glean something from the questions rather than just asking questions for the sake of it.

Lol quoi wagon. L-2 already, and not even page two yet.

Agar, don't toy with me. And don't doubt my skills either.

I'm sorry, but it's pretty natural after those questions.

Question 1 - Loaded.
Question 2 - Loaded.
Question 3 - There is nothing you can gain from this question.
Question 4 - There is nothing you can gain from this question.
Question 5 - You can't breadcrumb from this.

The whole objective of RQS is to use questions that can lead to a response that could potentially make scum slip in some manner by being over-excited or over-descriptive about something game related. Your questions literally just seem like you wanted to look pro-town and threw 5 questions together that have no coherency or need for descriptiveness what-so-ever and expected people to take you seriously. The whole RQS phase is pointless if you don't actually put any thought or reasoning into the questions you're asking people, because nothing can be gained from them.

So unless I'm completely off, which in that case you should probably provide an explanation for each question, there was no point in your questions, thus I took them at face value and had fun with them.

@ZeroFang - Can you explain how you believe it to be beneficial to the town if no one can get a read on you? The way you've worded this makes it sound like we're going to be dealing with a posting lurker and have more doubt and confusion with you around then without you, but this could be a vast misinterpretation. Not sure. Also, I'm assuming you're suggesting that I'm attempting to get a meta read on mallow? I can assure you this isn't the case, as this is only mallow's second game onsite, thus I don't have enough alignments to get a proper meta on him.

[AGar]

How is being able to be read ever pro-anything?

In most cases, being able to be read as town if you're town is pro-town because it allows the town to focus their efforts on more suspicious players and causes less confusion and potential mislynches. Scum/SK are going to know that you are not pro-their alignment anyways, so them not being able to read you doesn't necessarily hurt them.

Obviously scum/SK will want to be either read as town or not readable at all, but other than that, motivations for not being able to be read are questionable at best.

[AGar]

@ All: Please keep things civil in this game - from what I've seen, players in this game seem quite keen to get personal, which is really not necessary. Emotions can lead to people losing objectivity, which is the only weapon that town really has most of the time.

Hey, I hold no emotion whatsoever in my games! I just call people pathetic and idiotic in newbie games when they deserve it!

Anywho.

---

Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

lolwut?

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@mallow - Please explain to me how a question like "Is the sky really blue" or "Pickles or Pineapples" can provide some kind of 'red flag' ? Because I fail to see your supposed logic.

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@Zero - Would you like a shovel?

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@ZeroWaggoners - I fail to see the direct scum connection in ZeroFang's posts. I understand some of what he has said has been scummy, but where are we coming to the conclusion that he's 100% scum already again?

In other words: Don't rush to definitive conclusions just because he made one slip.

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@Chevre - Bad logic is bad. Pointing out questions are bad != reason to not answer them. As I said in my post, I was 99% sure they were useless, but there was that 1% that he might have actually had some ridiculous rhyme or reason. Why am I going to deny any player their opportunity to help the town? He could have found something completely insightful in my answers. You're right - by saying the questions are useless but answering them anyway, I am most definitely covering myself in case they do turn out to be useful. What's the matter with that?

---

@gonnano - Your post is lols. Srsly. I'll be waiting for you when you actually decide that you want to put that neuron of yours to use in the game.

VOTE: Chevre

For trying to make up scumtells out of nothing.

[AGar]

I've been waiting for that neuron myself, AGar, but I'm starting to think that it's just not gonna happen.

Lol. I like the sense of humor.

---

Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

lolwut?

---

@mallow - Please explain to me how a question like "Is the sky really blue" or "Pickles or Pineapples" can provide some kind of 'red flag' ? Because I fail to see your supposed logic.

Well apparently it's too sophisticated for you to understand so I won't bother wasting my time explaining it to you.

Lol, I don't think I'm alone in asking how you planned on getting anything from those questions.

[AGar]

Swiss, this is entirely false.

I actually read Lowell's actions as slightly town, but mostly null.
This site's obsession with waiting til deadline to vote is silly. We've seen some strong scumtells here, there's no reason not to push for a lynch.

I ask again. PLEASE point these strong, damning scumtells out to me. I've seen some scumtells, but nothing that justifies a lynch just 48 hours after the game has begun.

[AGar]

Scum tell (some are minor, but they add up)

1. First post did not engage any other players. It was pure fluff. While I don't find it terrible that he didn't vote, he didn't react to votes that had been, not even a comment on the self vote.
2. He engaged in Mallo's questions and then later pointed out that he lied in them. Thus, the answers are at best more fluff, at worst deliberate mislead.
3. He claims that he forgets his role when posting. As many people have said, that's a total lie. It's a set up for a later defence of "that can't be scummy, I wasn't even paying attention to whether I was town or scum back then."
4. He does the typical scum action of Vote and FOS.
5. He admitidly votes his second choice, in an attempt to provide further distancing for his likely scum buddy.
6. He encourages other players, in the early stages of Day 1, to not vote for their most likely scum, but to instead follow the crowd (assuming you limitedly agree with the crowd) in order to somehow lessen the scum's control of the game. I believe the false logic follows the pattern of "if we all group together, the scum can't sway us" which doesn't work, because we don't know who the scum are.
7. His vote and FOS had no reasoning at the time, he added them later. On it's own, not so bad, but then he used the fact that I did similiar as a scum point against me, blatant hypocracy is a scum tell. It was four posts later that he declared (invented) his reasons for voting and fosing.
8. He has encouraged selfish survival-motivated play. Not good, we want our town loud, proud and transparent.
9. He has changed his story. First his reason for voting his second scum read was purely because he wanted to bandwagon (which is pro-town when he does it) later it became because they were almost the same.
10. His OMGUS vote, particularly when he padded it out with hypocracy
11. He has further muddied his vote for his 2nd over 1st by pointing out that he jumped onto an RVS vote. This further points out that there was no reason not to vote for his 1st scum read. I.e. It's not like he was saying "well I find both scummy, but nobody agrees with my first and somebody has raised other good points against my 2nd, so I'll go with that.
12. There has been no scum hunting, except for the laughable OMGUS. He's fluff posted, he's discussed game theory and now he's got all defensive and even defeatist.

Enough reasons to hang this guy?

Solid case. But I'm not at all happy that we just lynched him. Seriously. Would have liked to see the day last a little bit longer at least before lynching him.

[AGar]

EBWOP:

But I should add that I'm not surprised at all that mallow did this...

[AGar]

Whoops gtg to bed. Cyas.

Is this a joke?

@Seacore - Ongoing, he was in. About all I can say.

[AGar]

Did my post really not go through???!?!?!

-_-

Then post your reasons.

Why did you hammer?
Why do you now regret hammering?
Who is a better lynch, at the moment?
Why should you not be policy lynched immediately on Day 2?

@Everybody else: I will now be playing this game by treating mallowgeno as a wild card. I.e. L-2 is now considered (by me) to be claim point, unless mallow is already on that wagon. I will unlikely attempt to interact directly with mallow unless he some how redeems himself.

[1]-I hammered because most of the town thought he was scum. Why shouldn't I? If he was scum, he would have just claimed a pr
[2]-I regret hammering because I didn't realize it would cause such a commotion.
[3]-I would actually like to lynch you Seacore. You're overreacting
[4]-Maybe I should be. However I'm sure a cop was on me and can attest to my innocence.

[1] So you hammered someone you didn't think was scum? Why on god's green earth would you do that?!?!? And I can think of a million and one reasons why not - starting with you didn't think he was scum, it was no more than 48 hours into the day, there were plenty of unanswered questions and also not everyone in the town was convinced. That's just a few.
[2] So you regret hammering only because of the fact that it brought more attention on you and that the town is bearing down on you?
[3] Seacore isn't overreacting. You're just trying to downplay how scummy what you did was. And the rest of the entire town is pretty much reacting in the same way so far.
[4] What information do you have that we don't have that says there is a cop? You say it like it's a given. Why? And why would he investigate you?

Then your next post tries to throw the town into an infinite loop of WIFOM by trying to speculate against one of the two night-kills.

So far in this game you have:

1) Posted random questions that served no purpose in gleaning any kind of reads, whether you claim they have or not.
2) OMGUS-voted, covering with the fact that "Mocking is a scumtell to me"
3) Hammered someone you thought was town.
4) Shown no good reasoning to that hammer, and if anything, tried to downplay the action.
5) Speculated on a nightkill, while blatantly ignoring the other.

So why shouldn't we hang you from the highest branch right now?

[AGar]

I AM confused however on why mafia would target Julien. It seems to me like they could have taken out someone that seemed more pro-town like AGar

This is hitting me as a big scumslip. How would you know that it was the mafia who killed Julien, considering that there were two kills?

o.O I missed this possibility.

Vote: Mallowgeno

No further questions, your honor.

[AGar]

Okay, can we not do that thing where we lynch people before everyone has had a chance to chime in?

What would you have added? "I think mallow is scum?" Conversely, if you had doubts to his scumminess, then it would've taken a hell of a time to convince myself (and I'm guessing Seacore/Chevre as well) against his scumminess. I can't speak for Quoi and Swiss, but judging by the lack of care for a quickhammer, I think they were equally convinced. I'm honestly not as upset about this because the reactions were pretty much feeding off of D1 when mallow decided to go "LOL he's not scum but Okie gaiz, hammer time! Ell oh ell."

Glad to see you're posting, now we only have two lurkers to deal with. Hopefully InflatablePie puts more in than either of his predecessors, and it would be nice to see Artem posting too. I understand that they didn't have much of a window on D2, but we could definitely use all of the input now.

We might be in LYLO right now, that's a safe guess.

With that said, everyone should use caution and try and glean as much of a read on each player as you can (although that's likely to be difficult with as little content as has been produced) before placing any votes.

@Swiss - Why exactly hammer yesterday? You seemed to just sort of jump on the wagon and not really put much forth other than "I'm ready to hammer." Not really a solid play, no matter how scummy mallow seemed. Would've been nice to see some free thinking first.

@gonnano - Aside from the fact that you are upset that you had no chance to chime in yesterday, what were your thoughts on mallow, and what is your overall feeling about the day?

@Inflatable Pie - What's your thought on the activity and speed of this game so far? Thoughts on how things have developed?

@Quoi - What led you to think that mallow's insistence was a GF softclaim? I know it isn't really relevant now, but I'm curious as to the thought process.

@Artem - See Inflatable Pie's question. Yet to hear from you.

@gonnano - You realize you just said "We should be careful and play this out to deadline, but I'm gonna put a vote on someone anyway." Very contradictory.

[AGar]

@gonnano - Aside from the fact that you are upset that you had no chance to chime in yesterday, what were your thoughts on mallow, and what is your overall feeling about the day?

Oh, I definitely thought mallow was scum -- [1] but we should have waited for a claim before the lynch. [2] Maybe more important than that, though, is the consideration that if we were going to lynch mallow anyway we could have used the opportunity to see whether the lurkers were indeed lurking or if they are like me and just can't check the site every single day.

[1] - He did claim, VT. Post right prior to the hammer.
[2] - Well, it's not like we're going about saying we should Lynch-All-Lurkers, are we? I fail to see the point of this.

@gonnano - You realize you just said "We should be careful and play this out to deadline, but I'm gonna put a vote on someone anyway." Very contradictory.

[1] Not exactly, considering that votes can be moved. [2] I'm not sure if everyone here is aware of this strategy, but personally I like to try and put pressure my big suspects without necessarily calling for a lynch ASAP. [3] If I feel that the lynch is moving forward too quickly, I can always unvote. I would think that this is pretty obvious, so if I'm right about Swiss I would consider you to be the most likely scumbuddy.

[4] Correction to my comment about Julien: After thinking it over, there's no guarantee that he was killed because he protected an anti-town player, and in fact he probably was the mafia's target.

[1] - Yes, but a scumteam can co-ordinate in the night for a quickhammer if they see the opportunity.
[2] - I'm aware of it, but it pretty much loses its effect when you say "By the way, this vote is pressure lolz"
[3] - For someone who's all up in arms about not getting the time to post yesterday, and who has said that you yourself cannot be on the site 24/7, how can you be confident that you can get onto the site frequent enough to make sure that a quickhammer doesn't happen again? You can unvote only if you get to the site, but you yourself have said you cannot get to the site every day. Your obvious concern over your inability to get here during D2 is why I'm concerned that you are so willing to leave a vote on a player.
[4] - Why the mafia, and why not an SK? Why are you assuming he was one parties target over another player? Sounds like a potential slip to me.

FoS: gonnano

[AGar]

First of all, and don't question this, but if there's a doctor he or she needs to claim.

What led you to think that mallow's insistence was a GF softclaim? I know it isn't really relevant now, but I'm curious as to the thought process.

mallowgeno looked like he was placing too much hope on a cop investigation bailing him out.

Ah ok.

[AGar]

I like using Mastin's Insane Tells a lot; caution to hammer is usually a scumtell. I see this as caution to hammer.


Thoughts?

Mastin's Insane Tells is a horrible idea... especially one he has since noted to mention is more of a neutral tell.

While I think Swiss' actions aren't the most pro-town, I much prefer to lynch gonnano today.

- Day 1 he got in and made two posts. One was admittedly RVS, the other being a vote on ZeroFang after the wagon had already built some steam and basically rehashed everyone's case in one line and also said he was worried about buddying. The only "buddying" that he could've been worried about was ZF's FoS on him and vote on mallow while saying he's more suspicious of Gonnano, but if that was enough for gonnano to freak out about buddying, then that's a little too hypersensitive.

- Day 3 he comes in and he immediately states that JVW was NOT targeted by the mafia. His next post does wonders for me. first, he basically explains that he didn't read the thread by stating we should have waited for a claim pre-hammer. Mallow claimed the post before Swiss hammered:

Ugh I really screwed up. I am town and I apologize for my stupidity. Good luck guys.
FINAL WORDS:
-Let's see, why wouldn't cop investigate me? I'm most likely scum out of all of you. I wasn't saying for a cop to claim either. Why wouldn't there be a cop? There's gotta be some sort of investigative role FMPOV
-I DO still feel that Agar could be town
-"please explain why what you did was pro town." It wasn't.

The defense rests. Go for the hammer Swiss

Mallowgeno, the vanilla townie, has been lynched

(Emphasis mine)

-Then he goes to accuse me of buddying Swiss for simply asking why he said "We should play out to the deadline" and then proceeded to vote, which I questioned because he has admitted himself not being able to be at the game 24/7. He then moves to backtrack on his statement about JVW, saying now that he was most likely a mafia target, not killed because of his role. I dunno about you, but this looks a lot to me like scum trying to cover up a scumslip.

[AGar]

I'm interested in the strategy, I think it might be a good play. I suggest a popcorn style claim if we go about this so as to avoid confusion or anything.

@Quoi - Why did you bring that up without mentioning anything else? As far as I see it, if there are 3 scum and 6 players, then what chance do we have? Even with a vig if they manage to shoot scum, it'll be 2/2 and the vig is likely to die, thus the town will lose their KP and then mafia wins.

[AGar]

I was wrong about saying that we didn't wait for mallow's claim. I did read the thread, but I failed to check all my statements before I posted -- I was kind of in a hurry to get a couple of posts in before everyone decided to leave me out of the day again.

In response to AGar:
A. I backtracked on the Julien comment because I was wrong at first. I read that he was a weak doctor and automatically assumed that he died because he protected an anti-town player. I later realized that it was entirely possible that he was killed by the mafia (or the SK/Vig), and considering that he had limited information he may not have even risked protecting anyone. I think that he was killed by the mafia because in the first post it says he was Killed rather than Shot, and because there were only two deaths that night -- one mafia kill, one SK/Vig kill.

Fair enough.

B.The great thing about a vote is that it has actual meaning, so the pressure is still there even if you say that it is a pressure vote. My thought process was that there were only two mafia members, therefore the mafia couldn't lynch Swiss even if I did vote for him.

Although I do find it interesting that you found my vote suspicious, then when I explained it you made a derogatory comment basically saying that I shouldn't have explained it.

I disagree with a vote having pressure if you say it has pressure, but that's a topic for MD, not here.

I didn't make a derogatory remark, nor did I say you shouldn't have explained it. I'm saying by explaining it you lessened the effect, in my eyes. If you interpreted "lolz" as derogatory, then I apologize, but I don't usually think people get that offended that easily. However, I never asked you to explain why you voted. I said I found it somewhat contradictory that you said "We should let the day go the full length" and then voted, not knowing how many mafia there are.

C. The point of letting everyone post before you lynch someone on Day 2 would be to gather information. It makes absolutely no sense to say "Well, it's not like we're going to lynch them just because they're lurking, so let's just go ahead and finish the day." You don't know what they might have said if it had turned out that they weren't ignoring the game, and furthering the discussion helps the town.

You're right, D2 was a bit too quick, in hindsight. But at the same time, so was D1, and it took more steam on D1 to get the wagon going. I think just assuming that because two quick lynches occurred there must be a scum hand in things is a bit naive. The town has been quiet and majorities have decided quickly on both days.

[AGar]

We need Quoi to check in before we do anything. Artem, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't go first either, it's your plan.

Everyone knows what popcorn style is?

And in this case claims should either be "I am the vig" or "I am not the vig", we don't need any more information, this will do.

[AGar]

I am not the vig.

Gonnano next.

[AGar]

@Quoi - The claim should continue throughout all players for CCs and such. Possibility of you being scum with early-claim gambit and all that.

[AGar]

I'm not sure if Artem wanted to NL or what - Not quite sure about that.

[AGar]

@Agar:

And in this case claims should either be "I am the vig" or "I am not the vig", we don't need any more information, this will do.

Can you please elaborate a little bit? In particular, why do you think we don't need any more information at this point in the game?

Because in the event that there is another pro-town PR (however unlikely it may or may not be), we didn't want to out them. What if it were no vig claim, but some other PR claimed? Or if both claimed (again, very unlikely, but still)?

Just saying I didn't think we needed to out anything else unnecessarily.

[AGar]

@Agar: the only thing I agree with in your last post is that we probably didn't want other role claims affecting the vig claim. But now that the vig thing is out of the way, I actually wouldn't mind another round of full-role claims. Here's why it's pro-town:

1. We're in LYLO where a single wrong move will cost us the game. We, therefore, want to have as much information as possible to make the best decision.

2. The mafia are already at the informational advantage. For example, they now know whether Quoi is telling the truth about who he shot.

3. During endgame, the mafia's night-kills revolve a lot more around what players think about each other. Leaving two townies who are confident about each other's towniness alive is a lot more dangerous than leaving an uncofirmed power role. (Assuming a 2:1 scenario.)

4. Moreso, tonight's kill will more or less be Quoi (unless the mafia decide to gamble with leaving him alive and then trying to question his claim tomorrow.). This leaves other power roles (if we have any) to act freely.

5. It commits players to a role, so that they won't be trying to weasel their way out with a fake-claim tomorrow.

So yea, I guess let's go around again and say whether we support another set of full-role claims and then do another popcorn thing, starting with Quoi.

Oh yeah, I only meant the "I am the vig"/"I am not the vig" for the vig claim.

A popcorn claim would be beneficial to the town at this point.

However, where did you draw the conclusion that we are definitely in LYLO? If it's 4/2, then we go into the night 3/2 with a mislynch and then Quoi shooting should still resolve (if mod uses Natural Action Resolution), which if he hits scum will go to 2/1 and 3 man LYLO then. I still think we're in MYLO.

I think Swiss would be a good lynch choice though, followed by gonnano. His actions have gotten scummier as time goes by.

I'm all for popcorn claim, Quoi should choose first player to claim (since he is essentially confirmed).

[AGar]

Sorry, I'd like to know WHY I would be a good lynch if we lynch.

I hammered whats his scummy face and pressured Pie. Wow. At least I'm DOING something, not just sat on my ass coasting (which as we all know is the F*CKING BIGGEST SCUM TELL AROUND)..

Let's start with you haven't scumhunted, and I fail to see pressure on Pie. You hammered Mallow just piggy backing off of what everyone else said, and you basically HAVE coasted to an extent. Almost all of your posts have been simple one liners lately.

You're the common denominator on two quicklynches of townies.

Your wagon didn't gain any quicklynch steam - doesn't that seem suspicious to you?

However, we have a popcorn claim yet before we lynch you.

[AGar]

Swiss - who claims next? Your choice.

[AGar]

7
Your wagon didn't gain any quicklynch steam - doesn't that seem suspicious to you?

His wagon didn't gain any speed because all the quick-lynchers are dead.

True. Just something I thought worth pointing out.

[AGar]

I am the state of Vermont (Vanilla Townie).

Last but not least, Gonnano.

[AGar]

If Swiss flips scum:
Quoi can't be scum (claimed vig)

Yes.

gonanno can't be scum (jumped on the wagon early with no reason + claimed doc)

No. Gonnano could have easily tried to bus his partner early on to get pro-town points like you're giving him and the doc claim could have fallen into his lap when he was last to claim in the roleclaim. He could easily be setting up a false claim with his "limited doctor claim" that way if gonnano-scum kills Quoi tonight, he can blame it on his limited abilities.

So it's down to Artem/AGar fmpov: at this moment, I am finding Artem to be extremely protown and process of elimination leaves me with AGar as Swiss's buddy. Quoi can do what he wants, but personally I'd like the vig shot going towards AGar. If there's a blocker, it'll just lead to an endgame of Artem, AGar and myself anyways, so all three of us are basically in the same situation, no?

Um, if there's a blocker, they can only block one player, no? Assuming gonnano's doc claim is true (highly doubtful in my mind - I'll get to that) and Quoi is the vig, they (scum) have to block one. Likely Quoi. That still leaves them guessing on whether or not gonnano's claim is true and then they can either hit gonnano, which leaves endgame of Artem, Quoi, you, me, or hit Quoi and if successful leaves Artem, gonnano, you, me and if failed, Artem, gonnano, you, me, Quoi.

I don't buy into gonnano's doc claim. It's all too convenient. I've found him scummy from early on posts, including his slip. Yes, Artem, Mallow's slip turned out to be townie, but gonnano's went from 'he died because he was a weak doctor' to 'he died because mafia killed him'. Up until that point, we didn't know if there was a vig or not, and he basically said one thing and then completely 180'd. And I don't think that someone not being around on D-2 is pro-town... I think that should be a null-tell at best, slightly scummy at worst. Just because someone says they couldn't get there, doesn't mean they didn't simply pop in the thread during the day, see a mislynch was gaining ground quickly and simply not post anything. Anyways, about the claim, it's very convenient for scum. Gonnano had the fortune of being last to claim. He had seen that there were no other PRs to claim to make the game seem broken, he had had time, and he claimed a very unique role, and didn't elaborate much. Because of this, he could easily be scum, planning to kill Quoi, and when it goes through tomorrow, he can easily say "Well, my role was limited, so the protect must have not gone through."

So. gonnano - It may not be best for the town to reveal your limitations, but it can help to see who you protected each night and why. I don't see how those answers can hurt your chances of revealing too much.

[AGar]

@Pie, AGar, Swiss: On a scale from 1 to 5, (1 being obv-scum, 5 being obv-town), how would you rate Seacore's play?

Probably a 4. Very aggressive, but logical and proactive.

[AGar]

The first lynch was a huge mistake, that ZF was NOT lynch worthy, my vote was purely pressure. Why? I wanted a read from him. How do you tell how bad a wound is? You push into it. I know other people did want him lynched, and admitted so after, but I did not. You pretty much have my word on this, as a scum could justs say this - but you CANNOT deny as scum I COULD NOT have seen the quick hammer placed by a now known townie. Thus I could not have been instrumental in a quick lynch.

This leaves you accusing me based on one lynch, which I'd do again (albeit with more time for posting). If you can make a case as to why he didn't deserve to be lynched, then I'll willingly be lynched today. HE DESERVED IT, AND ADMITTED AS SUCH. I 100% thought that guy was scum, as did we all.

So, you voted me purely down to a reason when, looked into, is false.

I would just like to highlight this point, he does have a good one here.

The ZF lynch was not intended by several people on it. There were 6 on, 6 off before Mallow hammered. TB (whom Artem has replaced) was lurking, for all intents and purposes, and had his vote on Quoi (RVS vote). I was not buying into the lynch, and was instead attacking Chevre for bad logic. Mallow had been voting me for my disdain for his questions, and even had supported ZF's attitude, because ZF was supporting his questions to an extent. ZF was highly unlikely to hammer himself. Quoi's vote was on Lowell, whom he claims (and I believe) to have later shot during the night. I'm not sure on his stance on ZF while he was alive, but he did post in the midst of everything, going after Lowell for a post. Lateralus (now InflatablePie [Dude, we played together during the moving time. Just realized this.]) was voting Mallow. Dunno the reasons why, but again, he seemed to be lurking and wasn't going to make a move. Plus, among most of those players, I don't think anyone expected a VI to come into play. They probably assumed they were safe leaving ZF at L-1, feeling heat and gaining reads on not only him, but other players.

As for mallow - his lynch was both called for and necessary. I've already suggested that if we went back, it would need to be more drawn out for more input, but he needed to be lynched and deserved it. He had hammered and admitted to not feeling that the player was scum. He was a complete wildcard, and not someone that you want to keep around, regardless of alignment. He had acted scummy throughout day 1 with his denial to provide reasoning as to why his questions were effective, and honestly, if we didn't lynch him, would you really want him in LYLO with you?

It was a pro-town move either way, whether or not scum was on the lynch. I don't think you can analyze the mallow lynch as you had 2 (essentially 3) confirmed townies on it, and the ZF lynch you had 5.

---

Also, Artem, what do you make of the doc claim by gonnano? If you had to pick a side right now, where would you stand?

---

Finally, a more thorough response to your post on me Artem -

For point 2, damn right I was going after the hammer on D2. He was a complete liability who had said that he lynched a player he didn't feel was scum. I wasn't the only one gearing for action, though. Seacore also wanted his head, so if you want to call it anything, it should be a null-tell, no?

For point 3, I was going to vote mallow that day, no two ways about it, honestly. Unless a cop came forward with an innocent on him and there was reason to believe it was positive, I was pretty much set. Consider it a policy lynch - mallow was a trap waiting to happen otherwise. He was not someone that anyone in the town would have wanted in later stages of the game because of his volatility, and the fact that his alignment was going to be impossible to figure out with any sense of confidence. Again, Seacore was also following in the slip. Again, Seacore is confirmed town. This is a null-tell at best for you.

For point 4, just because one player flips town on a slip doesn't mean scum can't make the same mistake. Note he went from "JVW likely died from protecting an anti-town player" to "he was probably the mafia's target." Not, "he likely died from protecting an anti-town player" to "He probably was killed by someone," he instead makes his claim just below definitive without committing 100% to it.

[AGar]

Just a note - I'm going to work soon, and I will be away tomorrow for 4th of July. Be back Monday.

[AGar]

I agree AGar looks scummy, and has buddied me. I'm pretty sure he is scum.

Willing to push for his lynch today, right now.

If I'm lynched today, I'll be shown as town - meaning he has to be scum. We might as well lynch him now.

I really want to see this buddying... Seriously.

I re-inforced one point you made about the lynches, but I'm still very well ready to hang you. Don't mistake you not being my #1 suspect for me not finding you scummy. I just think gonnano is scummier at this point.

And you showing town means I have to be scum? What? Please explain this logic.

[AGar]

And you showing town means I have to be scum? What? Please explain this logic.

The logic here, AGar, is that once he flips scum we are supposed to think that you are town. Don't be too angry with your scumbuddy -- he had good intentions.

I'm just confused by an idiot, that's all.

Anyways, I'm sick of hearing this kid flail and falsely accuse me of shit I didn't do.

VOTE: Swiss

[AGar]

My approach if I were scum would be this if I were trying a gambit... I would let Quoi's kill go through and let him live, hopefully convincing everyone that I was a doctor (no need to complicate my story). Then I would kill Quoi the next night, hoping that the vig kill would go through before the mafia kill. If it did, I would win. If it didn't, I would claim to be a one-save doc or some such thing and hammer the first person I could the next day.

The key here being that I would let Quoi's kill go through, because nobody knew that there was a roleblocker and I was pretty confident that Quoi would be gunning for AGar. It would make absolutely no sense for me to block Quoi's kill.

@Pie -
1. It seemed unbalanced to me too at first, but as we discussed a couple pages ago, a vig is much more likely to hit town when it is 10:2

2. Obviously I had to lie about my role for us to have a snowball's chance of keeping our Vigilante. If you like you can pretend that I said "Oh, the mafia must not have bought my doc claim ... too bad for them." That way you won't have to worry about my townness.

3. We have two chances to lynch scum, as you've already noted. Why do you want to believe that I'm pulling an elaborate and poorly executed gambit rather than lynch AGar?

This is just all sorts of bad. The first part is complete WIFOM and can't be taken for anything. "If I was scum, I would've done this..." Can you really expect anyone to buy that?

I more feel like this is a big gambit by gonnano. If he's a roleblocker, he's alone and he knows that I'm suspected and Quoi is being directed to shoot at me. He blocks Quoi, and submits no night-kill to go along with his "mafia bought my claim, but I'm bulletproof," reverse claim.

Gonnano - there is no useful situation where you can claim two different roles on two different days. Now you just have everyone having to debate whether or not either of your claims were real. I don't think either of them are.

VOTE: gonnano

[AGar]

For you people out there who are extra picky... replace "My approach if I were scum would be this if I were trying a gambit" with "It seems to me that the optimal scum strategy in this position would be". The point that I made is valid because I believe the strategy that I laid out earlier would be the best scum strategy for my position.

The two possibilities here (as scum) would be
A. go with the optimal strategy, which I detailed earlier.
B. don't use the best strategy because "that's what they'll be expecting"; instead go off half-cocked and randomize my actions and pray that I'm the one monkey who manages to type out some Shakespeare

AGar calling it WIFOM means that he thinks that B is a viable option. Or maybe it means that he's scum trying desperately to pull out a win.

I'm not going to spend any more time defending myself, though. If you're that determined to lynch me you can, and I feel pretty secure in the knowledge that AGar will basically be confirmed scum by the time Day 5 rolls around.

I called your post WIFOM, not the action in itself. Get it right.

[AGar]

Will post thoughts soon, but we were lucky to grab this. In retrospect, insta-bussing Swiss was a mistake on our planning.

Also, Quoi getting chosen to claim before me really messed up my plans. -_-

[AGar]

Ok, thoughts time!

Day 1, that quicklynch made things golden for us. None of the three of us had to say or do much. I honestly opposed the ZF wagon, only because I didn't feel like he was threatening to us and I was more worried about JVW/Seacore being a menace to us.

I dictated that we should kill JVW night 1 because I was honestly afraid of what he might do if he had time to post.

Day 2, again, perfect. Mallow basically sealed his own fate during Day 1's twilight, and I had positively managed to somehow get on Seacore's good side.

Night 2, Seacore was pretty obvious. No sense in letting him try and kill us.

Day 3, that's where in my opinion, we fell apart. I should have realized during our night 2 discussion that we would likely be 3:3 going into the day and put out that we should try and effortlessly push for a no-lynch. Instead, I agreed to the idea of IP pushing hard at Swiss, and I tried to stay on my course of attacking gonnano. Unfortunately, Artem was smarter, and presented the claim idea. Once that got rolling, I had fabricated a false-claim, only to have Quoi spoil it. I was hoping to be picked early on so I could gambit the claim. If countered, I would suggest no-lynching and then cross shooting, knowing I was NK-immune. However, I felt countering Quoi would be too risky because he did seem way too believable. Then for the next round of claims, I tried to fabricate something believable, but couldn't think of anything. Gonnano's doc claim felt off from the moment it came out, so I decided to try and attack it. When I realized it was futile, I decided to move towards Swiss. Even in presenting myself as scummy, I knew I would at least solicit Quoi's NK, and we should be able to kill gonnano. That would bring us to 2:2 and then we would be able to force a NL, even if we outed ourselves in the process. From there we would shoot Quoi, and even if he shot at IP, I would still go into D5 with Artem and win based on the fact that he didn't have a kill.

Night 3, we went through with the gonnano kill (although I had said I would submit a PM, then forgot to. I was freaking out my entire way home from work that morning thinking "Oh shit, we didn't get a kill off.") I checked the QT, IP said he sent a PM so I breathed a sigh of relief... only to find no one dead the next morning. Day 4 I figured I was dead meat, and was hoping gonnano and Artem would aggressively put me at L-1, where I would self hammer to cut off discussion. When I wasn't at L-1, I decided to give gonnano a shot. I fully expected it to fail, but somehow it worked.

We were lucky to pull this win out, all things considered. Again, we shouldn't have gone after Swiss so intentionally, I think. Even if we outed all three of us and forced a no-lynch and Quoi shot IP or Swiss, it was still 2 v 2 next day (assuming we didn't give the chance for the doc claim by gonnano).

Gonnano, the false-claim was brilliant. The back-tracking, not so much. I would've stated that the limitation was actually a one-time self-protect or something. A bit of a tougher sell, but it would've nullified the Lynch-All-Liars case against you, and probably would've sealed a town win.

Quoi - who would you have shot if I was lynched and flipped scum in the N4? (Gonnano/Pie/Artem).

[AGar]

BTW, I'm fine with posting QT if you two are.