Mini 988 - Small Town Mafia GAME OVER

[Nachomamma8]

/confirm

[Nachomamma8]

I will not be voting this Random Voting Stage. I am far too afraid that my participation will out both me and my mafia buddies.

Instead, I will active lurk until I can find something that I can easily jump on and gain town points for.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: jasonT1981

I've found scum FoS without a vote down a lot more than normal people. And also, I don't see a reason for him not switching his vote to Butterfly after catching him "rolefishing" unless he was just too nervous to switch votes that quickly.

[Nachomamma8]

Also Nacho's latest posts clearly contradict his initial statement.

How so? I'm done with my RVS, and I've found something I'm willing to jump on.

@jason: I don't see that as rolefishing because there is no possible way that the statement you quoted would out a cop. I suppose the first statement could be horribly misconstrued as trying to direct the cop, but the second statement guarantees it's not that.

[Nachomamma8]

How do you end up both tired and hyper?

Dissolving sleeping meds in coffee.

Pursue that objective, then. You're still scum for saying you didn't want to participate as it would out your mafia buddies, and then doing so in that same and following posts.

I never said I wouldn't be participating. I said I wouldn't be participating in the RVS.

By the way, you didn't have a RVS to be able to say you were over with it. Nice catch.

How can you tell me if I've had an RVS or not? Words rarely betray intent; otherwise, the game of Mafia wouldn't be as fun as it is, no?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Zachrulez

Stop being scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

Do something about it, then. Try not going after the easy target for a second...

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you stop responding to me, Nacho?

Because your line of questioning was going nowhere.

Why is Zach scummy?

Because he's pushing a lynch without making a case.

Why is Butterfly not scummy?

This is a stupid question.

I never said Butterfly wasn't scummy. I said Butterfly was an easy target. Why? Because he's a VI type character. Because he doesn't even have enough onsite posts to be a goon.

Is Zach an easy target? Why?

No. Why would he be?

[Nachomamma8]

The difference between my pushing and Zach's pushing is pretty vital. First of all, my reasoning came immediately after my vote, and second of all, the person whose lynch I'm pushing isn't close to a lynch at all.

@Zach: No they don't.

What makes the Butterfly scummier from the classic VI?
What is the scum intent behind a scum claim?

@Ex: Butterfly is an easy target because Butterfly has lots of votes on him? Because he's the only bandwagon we have right now? What are you expecting to gain from this question? Also, if you believe other players need more attention, then why aren't you giving them the attention they so dearly need?

@0x: Where did I say Butterfly was scummy, again?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho has been activly posting today on MS

Sir, where are you getting your information? Show proof, hun.

But yeah...

Unvote, Vote: Concerned

, pretty much for this:

As it is I agree with Nacho to a certain extent about the VI thing, but I think Zach put it aptly in post 241, I wanna see what everyone has to say about the butterfly lynch and then I'll place my vote.

I don't like that you had to ask everyone else's opinion before you decided to place a vote. If you're a townie that thinks he's found scum, you really shouldn't be worried about everyone else's opinions, should you?

I understood why Butterfly is an easy wagon, I think the question you are supposed to be answering here is "why isn't Zach an easy target?"

That question is obvious to me, but okay... Zach isn't an easy target because 1) he isn't a VI, 2) he doesn't have any votes on him, 3) he's a veteran of the game. Now, why did I have to point this out to you? Also, what do you mean I'm misrepping something here?

=Butterfly is scummy. If you thought otherwise, why the heck would you answer like that? To confuse us?

What, I can't have null reads on VIs?

You haven't said either way and your response is awfully defensive. Basically you've completely side-stepped the question by posing your own rhetorical one. What I want to know is: what is your opinion of Butterfly and, more importantly, why do you think that?

Butterfly is a null read. Why? Because he hasn't been on the site very long, because his logic doesn't make that much sense to me.

If he was town, he would never do this.

And what makes you think this?

By the way, Jason is town.

What makes you say this? Is it because he shares your views on most things?

Hmm... if we're a week from deadline, I'm definitely willing to hammer Butterfly. He isn't adding anything to the game whatsoever, he's active enough where he's not going to get replaced, and he's claimed VT.

[Nachomamma8]

@David, what makes scum claims (especially those in the RVS such huge scumtells to you? Do you agree with Zach's psychology point?

[quote=David]Why would a towny feel it necessarily to post that?[/qhote]
To promote discussion, to garner reactions, to do something different...

[quote=David]Zach vs Nacho - nacho attacks zach for pushing a lynch on an "easy" target, without even presenting his case. Zach presents a case against nacho and there we go. Fact is butterfly has been scummmy beyond all reason. With that said, I think you should have looked for other reasons to vote for zach as they were there if you wanted to pressure him.[/quote]
Do you disagree that ButterflyTown would be an easy target for scum to lynch? What about Zach's case on me do you agree with, iif any ? Why didn't you agree with my reasons?

[quote=David]but to me he comes off more as a newb scum than a newb townie. [/quote]
Why? What things has The Butterfly done here that you don't believe he would do as town?

[Nachomamma8]

What kind of comment were you expecting? I just wanted to make sure you weren't pulling anything out of your ass.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote=DavidParker]but when it comes down to it, unless we find a scum somehow, a butterfly lynch is the best thing for town as far as I can tell from his actions.[/quote]
This makes it seem like you don't think Butterfly is scum, yet

[quote=DavidParker]
With regard to butterfly being more newb scum. Well, intially the scum claim, and then covering it up saying it was his brother. If it was his brother, I see it more likely his brother was telling the truth to "screw him over". If he's lying, well then it only really makes sense he may be scum... Else he woulda just played it as a joke/discussion starter like you. Following that, just his immature post style and "frantic" defence gave me a scummier vibe than a town one, regardless of his lack of grasp of the English language.[/quote]
This sounds like you're trying to misrepresent him to be scum.

First of all, do you honestly think his brother knows his role? Second of all, why don't you think that Butterfly is simply newbtown who got nervous, then tried to use a lie to get the heat off him?

@Cuet: Why not start analyzing us three right now? What happens if Butterfly flips town?

[quote=Concerned]I want everyone to give their solid opinion before he is lynched for the sake of day 2 information, it gives me a reference point when I'm putting the pieces together on later days, assuming I am around in later days.

I'm not worried about their opinions in particular, I just want everyone to make a stance on the wagon so I can use their stance to garner information at a later date, I'm pretty sure I've already said this, in an earlier post concerning oxide.[/quote]
But why couldn't you take a stance on the wagon yourself before asking for everybody else's? Why did you need other people's opinions to develop your own?

[Nachomamma8]

Jason, your selective hearing is interesting, I must admit.

[Nachomamma8]

nuthin

[Nachomamma8]

1. Why does not being on this site very long a good reason for defending a person? What if the person is actually a veteren of Mafia?

Because newbie players play differently than experienced players; that's a fact. I still think that it was wrong that our only wagons were on someone with <100 posts, and someone who no one actually had a case on; he just lurked. I'm actually surprised that you're taking this position... In the newbie game we played together, the town lost because they were too willing to lynch VIs without really looking into the case.

2. Why does logic not making sense a reason to defend a person? Experienced players logic can be nonsense at some points as well.

Yes, but when logic consistently makes sense it's not scummy. It's just someone having bad logic. And if I feel like people are attacking people because of logic (which is still wrong, by the way), then I'm obligated to argue with it.




The rest of your case is saying I'm scum because I defended scum. Obviously, I can't defend against that because I can't take back reads. Don't you had to cushion that with quotes and quotes and quotes. Also, not participating in RVS honestly isn't a scumtell. It's a discussion starter. If you thought otherwise, then why didn't you address it then?

[Nachomamma8]

@Zachrulez: How do you expect me to defend against your accusation? All I can say is that you're perceiving my post wrong. I was defending someone that I thought scum were trying to mislynch.

@0xide: To be clear, you think that bussing on the Butterfly wagon was highly likely, so you're going to vote me with everyone else's reasoning?

@Exilon: It wasn't that I was reluctant to voice my opinion about Butterfly; I wanted to point out that people were drawing conclusions and putting words in my mouth.

@Cuet: It was nearing deadline, and he had stop posting. The hammer pressure was to force him to post more, and hopefully give us something to work with the next day if he flipped town.

Actually, everyone plays different from each other, there is no clear cut division between a newbie player and an experienced player.

No, but experienced players are normally more familiar with the rules of the games as well as the logic normally used in the game.

1. How is it wrong for us to lynch scums? The fact is, he was a scum and we lynched him Day 1. Scum lynches benefit town and if we continue lynching scums, town wins.

Right. But I didn't know he was scum, and I still don't see how you guys saw him as different from the classic VI. And if he was town, we'd be stuck today with absolutely nothing to go on and we'd have to play Day 1 all over again.

2. Post count on this site is not an accurate indication of how experience a player is. For all we know, The Butterfly could be a veteren at Mafia on another site, they just played it differently. Xite91 has been playing forum Mafia for over two years and just joined this site, are you going to treat him as a newbie?

yes,
if there is a cop here plz investigate the cow...
it seems suspicios


jk if your a cop then investagate whoever you want

Do these sound like the words of a veteran to you?

This is a lie. Not once was The Butterfly prodded under any circumstances. You can't use that as a reason, especially since he did make thirty-seven posts. All without contents, all without effort, and all with scum intentions. There are many other reasons for us to suspect The Butterfly and we were right.

Lurking is also posting a lot without saying a whole lot, honey.

[quote="SSBF'll take an example out of Newbie Mafia 934, Coach Travis. Yes he was scummy, yes he didn't play well, yes it appeared he didn't care, but at least he tried in that game. If that isn't enough to convince you, the obvious major difference is that he was a Vanilla Townie. And you clearly can't say he was a Village Idiot, because he said he'd played a few games on another site before and was modding one, so he has some experience in Mafia. The only possible Village Idiot in that game was razorback. His predeccessor was already scummy in many people's eyes and he was a replacement. Not to mention he has a horrible reputation in Mafiascum. He even ruined Newbie 951 and got him and another person banned from the Newbie Queue.[/quote]
Yeah, I remember razorback. Razor got lynched without a whole lot of opposition, and then in LyLo the next day you were lynched because you were a suspect of a couple of days ago.

[quote=""SSBF"]Yes, because these are evidence that support that you are probably The Butterfly's scum buddy. Quotes are evidence that you actually did such things.[/quote]
What makes you think Butterfly's scumbuddy was more likely to vocally defend him and condemn his attackers? Why don't you think they bussed him?

I never said that not particapating in RVS isn't a scum tell. What I found scummy about that statement was that you later contradicted yourself.

On top of that, as you know, RVS isn't the only way to particapate in the game. For example, we did RQS in Newbie Mafia 934 and it panned out well.

Didn't contridict myself. I stopped people from putting words in my mouth. The bolded has nothing to do with the rest of your argument.

[Nachomamma8]

What if a newbie has been lurking around in the site for years and been looking at the games before he started to play (diginova anyone?)? Would the person be familar with the normal rules of Mafia and logics like experienced players?

Yes, there are exceptions. But newbies playing like veterans is just that - an exception.

Neither did anyone else here. Even a VI would play better then this. This person play was among the worst I have ever seen from this site.

Even a VI would play better than this...? Did you make an effort to see if Butterfly posted anywhere else?

But even if he was town, we wouldn't basically be playing Day 1 over again. We would have analyzed his actions, who he suspected, etc. Plus we would have more information to find scums.

Analyzed his actions? He didn't post any content, and his play was unreadable.
Who he suspected? The largest bandwagon that wasn't him.

What information would we have?

No, but grammer should be the least of his worry. I agree that he has got to improve on his game, but in Mafia, we should be more concerned about his play, not his grammer.

You're offtopic.

Scum buddies want townies dead, not people from there own alignment. They are willing to do anything to keep suspicion off there scum team and deflect it off to town and get them lynched. While with bussing, the scums bussing the scum is simply trying to avoid suspicion. Both are connections that could make a scum team, but defending a scum is a stronger connection then just simply bussing.

Why?

Tell me, how is that not a contradiction?

You meant that?
Fist of all, that was on page 1 or 2 or something.
Second of all, the fact that the first quote is 100% sarcasm kinda ruins the contridiction there.

[Nachomamma8]

Concerned, 0x, SSBF.

And maybe one of you/jason.

[Nachomamma8]

Even if they are exceptions, the point is that they do happen.

I don't know about you, but I play Mafia by the rules, not the exceptions.

Yes, yes they would. VI's not like The Butterfly at least put some effort toward playing the game. They actually care about the game and is willing to help find scum. I saw no motivation in The Butterfly's play to scum hunt, he has done almost nothing in this game. This is the worst kind of VI's in this game, so much that they are scummy.

...no. Just... no.

Yes, he did post in Mini 992 and Newbie 966 (You're hosting that game, how could you not know?).

If only you realized what I was trying to say here...

If he was town, prehaps we could have analyzed his suspects (JasonT1981 and Antonio) and if we were lucky enough, build a case off them.

You would trust Butterfly's reads if he was town?:

You questioned me on if The Butterfly sounded like a veteren and I responded. That question sounds similar to talking about his grammar. If that is the case, how is my post off-topic while yours isn't?

You said:
Butterfly could be asneaky veteran mafia player.
I said: Does {Link} sound like a veteran to you?
You said: No, but grammar should be the least of his worries. I agree that he has got to improve on his game, but in Mafia, we should be more concerned about his play, not his grammer.

Chainsaw defenese is stronger then bussing because of this:

Chainsaw defense is a stronger tell when a mafia member isn't so far gone. It was apparent that he wasn't going to improve (thus, he wasn't going to survive long), so why would I incriminate myself just to save him for one more day?

That doesn't mean we can't use that as evidence, so don't make excuses.

YOU VOTED SOMEONE BECAUSE OF THEIR AVATAR, MEANING YOU'RE OPPORTUNISTIC SCUM. AND DONT SAY THAT IT WAS THE RVS EITHER, OR OTHERWISE YOU'RE JUST MAKING EXCUSES.


For now,

Vote: Zac hrulez

Until he actually explains why I'm scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually, nevermind. Zach isn't scum.

I doubt both scum were on my wagon, and I doubt both scum bussed Butterfly.
Antonio is town because Butterfly tried to pass the lynch off on him.
Meaning, 0x is the scum who didn't bus. So,

Unvote, Vote: 0xide

The scum who did bus is probably DavidParker or Concerned.

[Nachomamma8]

NOTE: DavidParker has offered to replace in for foobert.

[Nachomamma8]

@Cuet:
It's mostly a matter of PoE.

Zach is town for reasons said earlier.
SSBF is town because A) he's seems to believe in the case he's posting, plus the reasons why Zach is town.
Jason is town because Butterfly attacked him.
You are town because I just got that feeling.
David I is town because the mod told us so.

I wouldn't be surprised if foobert was bussing because he really didn't post the entire day, and DavisParker hasn't been posting since he's replaced in, which is suspicious (especially considering he didn't have to read the game again or anything).

[Nachomamma8]

Yo Zach.
If you're going to continually push me without a fully formed case, will you promise me to push the lynch of one of {0xide, Concerned, DavidParker} tomorrow? Preferably 0xide or David, but Concerned is something I could deal with. Like, pretty pretty please?

thats 5 town according to him, DP was confirmed non scum in the night, thats 6 town... really narrows the odds on scum eh?

First of all, that's 5 town.
Second of all, you've failed to disagree with all of my reads.

[Nachomamma8]

Reads:

Zach is town.
One of {Concerned, DavidParker} is scum.
One of {{Jason, 0xide} is scum.
Exilon is town.
Cuet is town.
Antonion is town.
SSBF is town.

I'm vanilla town.
But I want jason to hammer. Just because.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know what you were trying to say either. Care to explain like a good little townie?

Wish I could, but it's an ongoing game.

And why is Exilon town?

Because you and Jason are scummier.