Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[SpyreX]

/confirm

[SpyreX]

Ohh sure what the hell:

1. PST.
2. More than a few games. Less than a million.
3. Started at Epicmafia, ended up here via google I think.
4. I prefer short. V's, Q's whatever it doesn't matter.
5. Awesome.

Vote: crypto

Sup

[SpyreX]

NO U

In THEORY I'd prefer to follow awesome people making awesome moves but that doesn't seem to happen near enough to be in practice so I put on the powerhat 9000 and get a movin'.

Hiphop's entrance is...something else.
What is so fragrantly bad about those questions that not only do you opt to not answer you get all uppity. Is SSBF scum? Are those questions somehow bad?

[SpyreX]

Hrrrfff this start.

SSBF: You are saying you have no "scummy" reads on anyone? Really? Even baby steps is better than nothing.

Like this, watch:

Unvote, Vote SSBF

If you've got nothing from that whole question game then its white noise and thats awesome and I'm awesome.

[SpyreX]

I acknowledge SpyreX's and Wickedestjr's reasons because they at least explained why they found me suspicious.

You did? Where?

[SpyreX]

Baby steps my lord.

I'm not about to go ohh snap RVS is over, unvote and then say I addressed these things when I haven't.

I've got a triumvrate of people who I think are, in fact, town and a whole mess of jerks that need to shake themselves through.

[SpyreX]

Good lord I've NEVER lurked through a game either way and watching that as the crux in this one is awesome but I digress because this page has some good things that I'll get to in a skosh.

SpyreX is scummy pretty much for the reasons Sando outlined. "Hrrrfff this start" followed by a lack of content that might counterbalance the "Hrrrfff"-inducing state of play is entirely uncool. Continuing in iso. 3, "SSBF: You are saying you have no 'scummy' reads on anyone? Really? Even baby steps is better than nothing" looks a bit lackluster to me, and so does the attached vote. He's done not much more in the rest of his posts.

This start IS a hrffff and if you're arguing otherwise well lets lay it down. It seems like its a lackluster vote because it IS a lackluster vote - the only bit I'd still love a clear answer on is where he addressed it because I still dont see it.

Nopo's claim is balls-out as scum and I'm not seeing it. At all. Especially as a death miller. Its gonna take a lot more than ohh sigh lets lynch the claimed miller.

Lurky lurking lurker. Spyrex why didn't you answer his question? Who do you find suspicous? What do you think of my recent arguments? Am I being jumpy? Have you read the entire game? Why isn't rvs over? Is SSBF still your top suspect?

What question? SSBF's "ohh well RVS is over lets not vote anyone" doesn't help. Sayign that he's addressed this doesn't make sense.

BUT here's a better question:

As for spyrex, I don't particularly like metagaming and stuff like that, so I'm just going to stay out of that one.

[quote"120"]Spyrex is lurking. What's your point? Lurking =/= scum all the time, but we could pressure vote him or something. IMO lurkers are fine d1 lynches actually...

unvote, vote:spyrex[/quote]

What's the big difference between here? Perhaps its a crypto vote and hiphop prepping for a jump?

Whoosha

Unvote, Vote: Llama

[SpyreX]

Seriously SpyreX? Have you completely forgotten Mafia 96: Murder in Emerald City? Ya'know, the game where Kublai Khan, Mafia, claimed miller in his first post and survived to the end and won. I find it very hard to believe that you would forget that game. It was only a year ago. Unvote. Vote: SpyreX

As awesome as meta is lets take a step back:

I remember that game. Well.

However, now like then it still holds true. He took a gamble and it payed off in spades. That doesn't change it was a gamble and the normal course of action isn't drastically changed.

However, how, HOW can you do this when you SEE EXACTLY what I'm saying with the twosided llama we hath here.

Lets take a look at the reply:

Actually Spyrex, there isn't really a difference. At that point in time I figured they were going for some sort of weird 'you played differently in this game where you were town, so you must be scum' things. Now you're just straight up not really saying anything of value, and active lurkers are good d1 lynches.

So there's no difference and it just happened to fit in with this awesome new lynch, lynch gojuice?

And yes this is totally 1000% OMGUS because my lord thats what I did right. I didn't actually, ya know, say that you're playing at that vote as a function of the general feel of the game or anything rite.

You know, like maybe, just maybe, it was a shameless bandwagon RITE.

[SpyreX]

1. His vote on llamaeatataco seems like bandwagoning and OMGUS to me. Maybe not clear cut, but as llamaeatataco said, his attempt to hide it was hideous.

2. Was dodging questions until you had to ask the questions to SpyreX again. Sando asked SpyreX a few questions in #103. SpyreX ended up not answering the question in his next post (#104).

Woooo

Bandwagoning AND OMGUS? Thats awesome. Totally space dreams but awesome nonetheless.

What questions is it I'm avoiding?

[SpyreX]

No, Spyrex's vote on SSBF is pretty BS considering his play at that point. He basically attacked SSBF for not having any scum on his radar, yet Spyrex himself refused to say that he thought anyone was scummy other than SSBF. From that, it can be inferred that if not for SSBF not having any scum-targets, either would Spyrex.

Also, claiming that there's been little to no content, then attacking someone for not having any targets is pretty weird logic...

Thats a pretty awesome inference there. Especially since, I was really clear that it wasn't just I have no suspects. Its the walls, going welp RVS is over because we have something to work on

and then saying no one is scummy

.

If he played that whole question game, "got something to work with" and yet not even a vote then it was pointless, pointless white noise. Designed to do one thing: make it look like he was doing something.

And the assumption that if not for that I wouldn't have had a vote out is tech. Real, real tech.

As for llama's above? Real difference between charter and I and where the vote went where it did? I had people voting for me. Simple and scummy as that.

[SpyreX]

-_- If you were lurkerscum, would a single vote pressure you at all?

So it is a function of there being a wagon, gotcha.

That seems like a pretty clear refusal to state that anyone other than SSBF is scummy, and I inferred from that refusal that you wouldn't be voting anyone other than SSBF at that point, I don't think that's a stretch at all.

What???

Lets look at that again:

I've got a triumvrate of people who I think are, in fact, town and

a whole mess of jerks that need to shake themselves through.

If ANYTHING you could make the argument that OHH SNAP there's not 9 scum not that I have no reads I'm working out that are all living at the scum end of things. How you take that to be there isn't a whole mess of scum I don't know.

Its just that, like I said, even there what SSBF did raised the bar (which llama then stole)

[SpyreX]

Spyrex, I really want to know how this happened. You can start from when you first vote llama. In all that sarcasm, I cannot ascertain why you voted for llama. And since then I cannot find any indication, of why you even have your vote on llama. I kind of also want to know who is scummy besides the people attacking you, unless of course you can convince me, that scum decided to throw the book of mafia out the window and band together for one time since the start of mafia to mislynch you.

Then I preview, and find llama stole my idea and topic of that paragragh. Spyrex can you answer mine first?

What?

I'm losing my mind now, flat out.

SSBF is scummy because of, AGAIN, the whole business detailed which I'm not doing again.

Llama is simpler. The "well, not getting into this" *14 posts past with some serious SpyreX wagon prep* "Ohh yea lurker vote". Which he flat out

admitted was because there was a wagon on me versus other "lurkers".

And I dont even remember pretending to think about implying they are scum together. No, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Llama, independently, has a waaaayyy higher shot of being scum. Hence, the vote.

And, again, there's a small list of nice sweet ass townies. There's a bigger list that makes me shake my head. Then there is llama and SSBF.

And yea I totally only go after people who go after me thats exactly what went down with SSBF amirite.

[SpyreX]

Ohhh hells no I'm not answering that at this juncture. Its not ALLIANCE time and that doesn't help anything.

BUT ONTO THE AWESOME:

This took you nearly two days to answer. Given your activity track record, unless you were in a ton of games, there wasn't an excuse it took you so long to answer the question.

The answer to that was in the next post. Seriously. The next one. Not "my next post" but "the next post".

F---

The closest I could find is SpyreX being hypocritical once, which you pointed out in this (part of a) post:

What. What. WHAT. GOD I PUT WORDS ON PAGES FOR A REASON.

Spyrex has not really said jack shit except for 'you're stupid for trying to lynch me' and 'ssbf is scum.' He says he thinks everyone is scum except for his three people, so asking him for people other than ssbf and me that he is suspicious is useless. The next best thing is his trio of 'not scum.' You see, if I was scum I wouldn't give a damn about who spyrex thought was town because I have seen no evidence showing that a) he knows what he's doing and b) people agree with him. So, obvious stretching is obvious.

Except 'you're stupid for trying to lynch me' never happened and I'm voting you for the amazing hop that you said was bandwagoning for bandwagonings sake.

Dangle.

Honestly, there aren't many people i would be against lynching right now, as it's too hard to tell who's lying or not. I'm putting my hopes in getting good info from the night.

OHH GOD THIS MEANS HE HAS NO SUSPECTS

Unvote, Vote: Podium

Ohh wait, thats not what that means at all is it?

Unvote, Vote: LLama

[SpyreX]

Sorry about the hate mr hop its spilling over from other arguments this game and if you reeaally want a third it'd be a distant one at this juncture so. Speaking of hate arguments:

He was so impressed by KK (Kublai Khan) that he called him the scum MVP. The fact that he quickly assumes another player in this game is town for claiming miller is absurd.

Why was his play so inspired that game? Yeaaaa that whole reason why THAT was so inspired has a direct correlation here. And not in the OMG META F-- way you're aiming for.

Claiming not only miller but death miller at that juncture is a town move. Period. Now, if other evidence presents itself that isn't somehow OHH SNAP MILLER than sure. As it sits, town. That action is the most town thing to happen in this cluster.

From what it says SSBF is making up stuff(highly scummy in my mind, if that is the case) and llama is attacking you for something that others are doing.(happens in every game, especially on day one, why does this make him special?) It seems to me that SSBF gets the cake. So listen to crypto. Besides I need you to supply the rope, the one we have seems to be fraying.

Its partially rage. The "yea, I'm doin it, what of it" and getting away with it drives me nuts. However, objectively, you are right.

Unvote, Vote: SSBF

[SpyreX]

It may not be extremely influential, but imo he has a small point. I dont understand why, since you were obviously aware that scum could use that tactic to win, you didnt seem to show any hesitation in assuming that (this time) the miller is telling the truth.

edit: at this point i went back and took a gander at that game... you were in endgame with the mafia miller... seems like it would definitely be a concern to you. do you understand why it looks odd?

since being a 'balls out' mafia play doesnt mean that that isnt what's happening, what makes you say that you 'arent buying it' as a mafia play here?

Scum can use a myriad of tactics to win. That doesn't change the risk-reward nature of pulling stunts like that. I'm not going to slobber over meta because thats about as useless as you can get.

Could he be scum? Sure. Is he? Probably not. Definitely not enough that welp, miller time is gonna be enough to call it macaroni.

What are you referring to here?

Real simple. A group of strong town reads that can work together are almost an insurmountable wall for scum. However, its not quite there yet. When the time comes it'll come.

[SpyreX]

Odd's one of those words that gets my dander up.

Not even regardless of but BECAUSE of previous experience its a balls-out move and going one step further and claiming death miller is a death warrant. Hence, not a scum move.

[SpyreX]

Except for when it is.

And if it is then focus on the others and if, ya know, the others go he can dangle. Not as a function of the claim.

Because scum were awesome once with a ballsy claim sure as hell doesn't make it the norm god in heaven I hate meta.

Wait, why is claiming death miller a death warrant? Miller I could at least see being lynched as a bit of a policy because you can at least confirm if they were lying or not. A death miller basically puts you at square 1, you lynch them based on scumminess, knowing that they're basically a no-reveal.

Basically, claiming death miller gives no incentive for town to lynch you as far as I can see? Why do you see it as such a pro-town move?

I look like a duck, I quack like a duck, but I'm not a duck I promise! Especially in a game based around lying about duckitude!!

[SpyreX]

And let me ammend:

WHAT? You can see lynching millers on policy but not death millers??

I...

[SpyreX]

You don't lynch millers "for information". You lynch millers because, in theory, it is a great smokescreen for scum to hide behind - namely, that investigations will make them come up scum even though they aren't.

A death miller is even more erroneous on that count - not only are they going to investigate as scum, but they'll flip as scum too... but, trust them, they aren't scum.

Now, to be fair, this is something that is REALLY hard to leave at lylo. However, that doesn't mean it needs to be a throwaway lynch - there's a lot of game inbetween then and now and the goal is to make it not GET to lylo because of it.

In claiming deathmiller he says he looks like a duck to investigations and quacks like a duck on flips - but the answer, again, is not to kill the duck.

Crypto threw out a vote (albeit rectified quickly) - the corollary to wicked's weird meta obsession that bothers me more than a bit is that the miller claim should be lynched (and yet no vote) then you have SSBF's extremely weird I don't like it / this would play out the same way at endgame (WHAT).

Yea, thats enough duck-wranglers that I'm calling teaparty.

Claiming miller at that juncture is a solid town move. NOW, with that said, fading into the backdrop after it is pissing me off but we'll see.

----

With ALL that said what in the hell are we arguing about at this point? The fact I think its town and not null? The garbage OMG META business?

[SpyreX]

It IS a death warrant unless you're willing to gamble on the side of chances are its town doing the right thing versus ballsy scum neutering themselves (since, chances are, its going to be a D1-D2 lynch).

I'm gambling. And, yes if you want to say its because someone opted to sign a death warrant and that makes them town as the rationale YES.

Again, what are we arguing about? You aiming for something with this?

[SpyreX]

This page.

Early claim? Awesome.

Busted claim? Awesomer.

If charter is telling the truth like I think then we may have to revisit that miller claim, depending.

[SpyreX]

The chances of a gunsmith AND a cop both being in the game are low. I'd say nill but for the miller claim as well; that could be a red herring.

[SpyreX]

Lets look at a few things:

1.) This is a mini.
2.) We have a death miller claim.
3.) We have a cop claim.
4.) We have a gunsmith claim.

Now, there's three common scenarios for a mini: 9:3, 8:2:2, 8/9:3/2:1

IF all three of these are true, I'd have to believe its an 8:2:2 or 8/9:2/3:1 - the big reason, and the issue I have with dual investigative roles in a mini like this and one reason why I lean REAL hard on a liar, is that there's an inherent imbalance if its 9:3 (either the roles are watered down to be worthless OR its absolutely weighted towards a town-win).

So, looking at the two options an SK could make sense: if it has an inherent protection from one, or both, roles.

Two mafia teams gets a bit weirder: You could have a standard godfather on one side and the other protected via gunsmith. Of course, this means that the scum-balance is directly against these roles which means other roles are hard to deal with (the death miller claim being a negative weight which makes 2/2 scum PR's VERY hard to swallow).

Now, lets add the miller into the mix. From what is said (and if this is wrong clarify) he'd investigate scum (which is a cop, not a gunsmith result) and flip scum. This false positive in conjunction with the false negatives above in either scenario equals a giant mess of WOOSH which adds a huge element of swing.

Add into this the pushing for charter to investigate the miller (note: not asking for clarification on how is millering works) is a huge teaparty that really reeks of cop-lying.

So, in short:

Two investigative roles in a mini doesn't make a lot of sense.
The actions of one of these investigative roles is REAL suspect.

Dingle, dangle.

[SpyreX]

Ohh lord its 11 and not 12? God.

Yea, 8:3 makes even less sense then 9:3

[SpyreX]

* If all parties thus far are telling the truth. Which they aren't.

[SpyreX]

Sanities (aside from random which is WOOSH) don't alter the inherent issues with multiple investigative claims.

I'm on record with one of them is lying. I'm double on record with that being SSBF over charter based on the day.

[SpyreX]

What made his play so inspired that game?

Really? Really?

A cop so not-subtly says he's got a guilty. KK pre-empts the guilty by claiming miller - which is then, essentially, confirmed by the cop.

Now, if KK isn't the guilty he had that scum gets lynched AND there's room to lynch the miller claim. Net result being 2 dead scum. It was ballsy, but it paid off.

Before you said that it was a balls-out move as scum especially as a death miller, which implies that it is a balls-out move even if he had claimed normal miller, so don't try and change what you said:

What?

Claiming miller of any variety is ballsy as scum. Claiming death miller adds a bit of spice to it because it gives even more reason to lynch. The whole duck discussion earlier.

[SpyreX]

Charter's play has been pretty town on the spot. SSBF's claim, timing, and the simple math behind it support that lynch.

[SpyreX]

I could swing behind a llama if it comes to it - however, I like to kill issues like this before they blossom out of control or its a welp, can't do anything because wrong choices mean losing the game kinda thing.

[SpyreX]

Lord I'm getting tired but part of it is worth looking at:

Best-case town scenario could absolutely cripple a scumteam with a cop and a gunsmith on both sides. The counterbalance, as seen in the miller claim, isn't even enough to change the balance since a miller that knows they are a miller SHOULD be claiming thus freeing up the investigative role.

And yes, cops, vigs and sometimes even trackers and watchers can have guns. However, from a true balance prospective its not a function of "what happens if the gunsmith investigates the cop before he claims" but "what happens if both the gunsmith and the cop investigate scum?". Its the inverse of counting on cross-kills for balance - it just doesn't work.

I'll argue with you more about charter = anti-town luker and SSBF's early cop claim = tech town move. Because those are both F--

[SpyreX]

My point is proven. Hey guys got a great idea, let's lynch a PR before they can use their roles. Spyrex, what would happen if say you do lynch SSBF, and he does turns up town? Would you then push a lynch for Charter, if he isn't nk'd? Perhaps what I said is actually true. Think about it.

What?

I'm saying it absolutely doesn't add up. And yes, that means if SSBF is town then charter by nature goes up a notch.

However, thats not happening since SSBF isn't going to be town.

[SpyreX]

I still don't get it. Are you saying the difference between this game and that game is that he was investigated in that game? How does that make his play so inspired.

It was a gamble. A huge gamble that paid off because he was the one who got investigated and did it in such a way that the investigation helped strengthen his claim.

It was awesome because it fit exactly what town should do and all clicked.

This isn't that. This is exactly what town should do because he is town.

[SpyreX]

Sigh. When this is, again, an issue tomorrow there's going to be a slew of I told you so's.

Further, when SSBF is, in fact, lying there is going to be even more I told you so's.

Unvote, Vote: Llama

[SpyreX]

I think there is A investigative role.

I think, based on play, that has waay more of a chance to be charter than SSBF.

Charter has claimed gunsmith.

Thus, gunsmith it is.

[SpyreX]

THIS IS A BAD LYNCH

SCOOP SCOOP

REGARDLESS THIS IS THE WORST LYNCH

Llama is better if no one wants to man up and take care of business. Lynching the death miller is absolutely a waste and I'm disgusted by it.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex, if you think there is only one investigative role, and that it's charter... why aren't you voting for ssbf? You would probably have a good shot at getting enough votes.

What?

I'd BEEN voting there forever and no one wants to do it and its that awesome "well he's not really town but he claimed cop lets never lynch PR claims ever because I mean why would scum ever fake that rite?"

And that brings it to...1 other vote there.

Which is really interesting since that seems to be a push for it but now you're saying me or Alma? WOOOSH.

--

As an aside I'm pretty sure I said to revisit the claim IF SSBF is scum. Not ever, ever SSBF scum = not scum because that is retarded and even then I'm still thinking not is town for the way that party went down.

[SpyreX]

This is ridiculous.

What's the count at?

Additionally Podium: Nop, Charter, SSBF: Alignments, right now. Go.

[SpyreX]

Actually I asked that for a valid reason:

no, not ok. each time i start to suggest a plan of action i have second thoughts. like this: if

ssbf

is lying, then

nopoint

probably is too... and based on ssbf's play last game i could see him faking town cop even after his partner faked death miller, so lets lynch ssbf. BUT would a gunsmith be the ONLY investigating role included in this game? doesnt seem likely that with only 11 people we only have a gunsmith to help us.

if someone were to make me decide what to do right now, i would suggest we let all 3 prs live and lynch a scum suspect, and take it from there. i suggest

sando

, but would also support a

crypto

lynch.

not so sure about this lynching nopoint stuff

. for one, he is pushing to not get lynched and be investigated... which is in his favor. if he was scum, and knew he was going to be investigated if he isnt lynched, the best move for him would be to get lynched... it would serve to confuse town.

if he's dirty, we will know tomorrow. why not let charter investigate? dont get me wrong, i am still susp. of nopoint and i really didnt like his vote on crypto... but why not just let charter investigate?

(in response to SSBF)
this half way makes me want to lynch you right freaking now. if you think he isnt a death miller and is lying, and we lynch him... then we still wont know if he's telling the truth. we find out NOTHING about his alignment by lynching him. think.

i wish some of the people on this nopoint train would fill me in on why you are handing mafia what they want, instead of just having the gunsmith investigate overnight.

I need to hear from wicked and hiphop reasons why mafia wouldnt want a nopoint lynch.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Of course, crypto looks good because he could have hammered nopoint and didnt. And lets not forgot he also removed a well-justified nopoint vote back at L-3. I like those plays. A lot.

Hiphop

moves up my scum ladder here...

I think sando is still a pretty solid candidate. I think maf is/was pushing llama. This recent activity is making some other lynches look increasingly attractive... like

spyrex

...

Ok, ive been doing a little iso'ing. We are in the final hours here, so have to pull something together quick. i dont think the support is here for a sando lynch, and at this point there are probably better candidates.

im looking at either

almaster

or

spyrex

right now, will have a decision momentarily.

Actually, i think i found someone better.

Wicked

.

Cause i was thinking to myself... if you (me) say that mafia would have wanted that lynch, then why not pick someone that was on the nopoint wagon. I think i have been subconsciously giving hiphop and wicked a bit of a pass when it comes to scrutiny, because of just coming off a game where they were town. Anyway, when i iso'd wicked, this post jumped out at me:

I have already said, but since you seem to need things pointed out to you, i guess i can briefly summarize. Charter's claim/reaction looks townish. SSBF's claim/play seems fakish/scummy. Nopoint is a null, hence wanting the investigation.

So, the short list of your lynch choices throughout the latter half of today: SpyreX, SSBF, Wicked, Alamaster, Crypto, Hiphop and Nopoint.

Oddly enough I probably could take some time and watch how many of those reads have shifted all over the boards. Its pretty sweet.

Whats really missing there at all? Llama. I'm pretty sure from my cursory reads he sat at null, maybe town and vanished. Then this flux of activity as no one wants to man up on SSBF?

Know what that spells?

If Llama flips a scum PR you might as well not post tomorrow because you are dead. Not a little dead. Super dead.

[SpyreX]

Hey... Perry Mason... you aren't as clever as you think you are being. You can't call timeout, comb the entire thread for me discussing anyone i ever suspected, or anytime i discussed variations of possible setups/plans, and then compile them into a list out of context. That's disingenuous as hell, and it ticks me off.

First of all, I dont know about you, but i dont know the alignments of anyone except myself. So i am not going to apologize for suspecting anyone and everyone. So what if i said (which i didnt) i am prepared to lynch anyone today. Last time i checked that's not scummy.

Secondly... crypto is no longer a scum read, i said this. i never suggested you or alamaster for a lynch, i said i was looking at you... reading iso's. what i said to hiphop and ssbf was more hyperbole than anything else.

Right now, a LOT of people are making scummy moves. If you disagree with a case i have made, then challenge it. I'm not going to hold my tongue for fear of what mean 'ole spyrex thinks. Like i said, if you feel like you've got the oats to go up against me, then do it with substance... stop bringing these little petty, amateur criticisms.

You aren't going to trip me up.

1.) Its not a function of context - unless you're saying at the time you said those statements thats somehow not what you meant. If thats the case, go ahead and get lynched before your bro because thats fine.

2.) You are NOT prepared to lynch anyone today. Llama is, was, and always will be absent from the paint brush of suspicion you've been throwing against the wall. However, its not like he's an awesome pro-town read TM. Just a little town.

3.)

i never suggested you or alamaster for a lynch

Really?

REALLY?

SCOOP SCOOP:

This recent activity is making some other

lynches

look increasingly attractive...

like spyrex...

i dont think the support is here for a sando

lynch

, and at this point there are probably better candidates.

im looking at either

almaster or spyrex

right now, will have a decision momentarily.

Yea no way I'm going to trip you up. Impossible, rite?

Unvote, Vote: Podium

WHILE I KNOW THIS WONT HAPPEN MAYBE IF I VOTE FOR IT AND PASTE THE ABOVE INTERACTION AGAIN AT THE BOTTOM IT WILL

Anywho, back to regular programming:

4.) On top of saying "trip you up" which is awesome and a totally town statement I promise I have delved into the "cases" on wicked and sando because, lo and behold, they happened at such an opportune time to advert this away from LLama that I was all ready for calling teaparty and then you decided to up the ante.

But, lets continue:

That makes sense. Because how dare i have a town read on someone you think is scum, right?

You are right you've been on record saying that llama is town wait a second:

llama - meh. plays new at times, sloppy at others. null with a slight town lean.

Ohh wait.

BUT AGAIN LET ME REITERATE:

i never suggested you or alamaster for a lynch

This recent activity is making some other

lynches

look increasingly attractive...

like spyrex...

i dont think the support is here for a sando

lynch

, and at this point there are probably better candidates.

im looking at either

almaster or spyrex

right now, will have a decision momentarily.

Lying: the most town defense against accusations.

Dingle dangle swoop swoop

(Yea, I know no one is going to man up and actually do this but lets see)

[SpyreX]

Today is gonna be retarded busy but real quick:

Crypto: Your homey there, when attacked, opted to lie about what he said and then argue that semantically not once but twice looking at me for a lynch does not mean he wanted to lynch me. As for the other half of the spaghetti he's been throwing missing charter as well as llama as some grandiose defense for it well.

[SpyreX]

I want this absolutely clear:

This recent activity is making some other

lynches

look increasingly attractive...

like spyrex...

i dont think the support is here for a sando

lynch

, and at this point there are probably better candidates.

im looking at either

almaster or spyrex

right now, will have a decision momentarily.

Crypto, you are saying that above is not, in fact, expressing desire for a lynch on me?

I really want a LLama lynch to solidify what I'm calling out. I'm fine with an SSBF lynch. The combination of timing and people make the Wicked lynch absolutely unattractive.

[SpyreX]

Welp, I dont even know what to say if you can look at that and go OHH NO WAY HE WANTS YOU LYNCHED.

There is a bizarro world dichotomy between my last sentence above and cryptos that gives me the itch in all those bad ways. Of course, I'd absolutely eat a hat if crypto and podium were scum together.

[SpyreX]

What question? Wicked or Sando?

Would I lynch them? Maybe.

Would I lynch them over SSBF? No.
Would I lynch them over LLama? No.
Would I lynch them over you? No. Especially with this disconnect which I'm going to get into because I STILL can't wrap my head around not only you saying this but Crypto agreeing:

This recent activity is making some other lynches look increasingly attractive... like spyrex...

Lets break this apart.

This recent activity: This is in reference to, hopefully, the discussions on 13 and 14 (which, is when the nopoint wagon started getting serious traction). This is, of course, before the wicked vote.

is making some other lynches: "Other" implies not current candidates (Llama 3 / Nopoint 4 conservatively)

look increasingly attractive: gaining in value. When, in part two, we are talking about lynches, this would in fact mean are better lynches than the current candidates.

like spyrex: This, when combined with the above, would mean that SpyreX is a viable lynch candidate, especially over Llama and Nopoint.

Now, thats just desconstruction. One can easily infer since as of this his vote was on Sando that I would also be a better lynch than Sando.

"Yea, thats a lot of words, what does it mean?"

Inherently? Nothing.
When combined with "I've never suggested you (SpyreX) or Alamaster for lynch" its a lie. Its one that was attempted to be argued semantically "I'm not saying I wanted to lynch you just that I was going to read you" which makes absolutely no sense

explicitly or contextually

unless, somehow, saying a lynch looks more attractive means "I'm actually not sure about you and need to read you in iso" which is what not one, but two, of them are espousing.

Its garbage. The ONLY way that makes sense is to deflect away from someone else.

And, again, I'll be moving my vote but its sitting there and doing this because THIS NEEDS TO BE NOTED. I'm not "desperately trying to get him lynched" I'm calling out this pile for what it is.

He's slingshotted at a majority and is getting pats for it. Awesome.

He was considering you as a potentially good lynch. That's an perceptible notch below wanting to lynch you.

What?

If I say "Crypto is a good lynch" and then don't vote you because "Well that doesn't mean I ACTUALLY want to lynch Crypto" what in the hell is that?

[SpyreX]

At this point if you two aren't town confirmed masons I want you both dead independently because I can't wrap my head around this any other way.

Unvote, Vote: Llama

Alamaster MY AWESOME SCUMPARTNER I MEAN THIS IS HOW SCUM WORK don't waste the vote.

Lets see what happens from team awesome over there.

[SpyreX]

There's a whole lot of questions in there so yea thats awesome much like the wasted vote and you'll be sorry mentality.

But, lets try this:

24ish hours to deadline. A left-field wagon shows up. Said wagoner is avoiding one of the main wagons like the plague.

Scummy?

[SpyreX]

No, if anything its one of you two - definitely not both.

However, if I had two bullets I'd kill you both out of spite right this moment.

Its irritation that I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall and the semantic difference in this setting with "Ohh he's a potentially good lynch" and "Ohh I never said I wanted to lynch him" being BFF's just doesn't make sense.

[SpyreX]

No, you had a slight town read / null. If you're going to sit and argue semantics those are actually different things.

Show. Me. These. Awesome. Questions. I'm. Avoiding.

I'll gladly answer them.

[SpyreX]

Hiphop is town.

Thats a nice thing to see.

You know, like the polar opposite of other things.

Included in that case was an accusation that i lied about thinking llama was a town read.

Show me "I think llama is town" that you said.
Additionally, show me this accusation. I'm pretty sure I said you've been very, very quiet about him and said he was slight town/null in your giant post of reads that probably don't match anything now but thats a-ok because subjective language and interpretation is awesome and helps everyone so much.

PREVIEW EDIT OHH SNAP:

Questions, in fact, have question marks. OHH NO SEMANTICS

Opportune is shifting a wagon with this much time left. I'm pretty clear about that. Of course, my hypothesis can't be tested unless Llama is lynched but believe you me it'll happen.

My point wasn't that you're throwing out at everyone. Just a wide net that happened to over and over again truly miss Llama.

In fact, both of the things I just said above have been addressed and are pretty clear from all the words I've used. If there are other "words" in there that actually are questions that require a response to something go ahead and ask them. Like I said.

[SpyreX]

I'll vote Sando to stop nolynch and if he is actually scum I'll just sheep like a nice sheeple.

IF HE IS TOWN I SWEAR TO GOD LLAMA DIES SOON.

[SpyreX]

SIR YES SIR

Unvote, Vote: Sando

I'm on record, again, that there is a scum between charter and SSBF.

I'm also on record that today has been more retarded than most.

I'm additionally on record that if this is a town flip llama dies soon. And if that is a scum flip podium dies.

[SpyreX]

Hahah

No. No.

3. You say i should have chosen from llama (a town read of mine), or SSBF who we BOTH have said should live today. Both illogical for me to do, if there is similar support for another lynch.

Thats all well and good AFTER I BRING IT UP.

Where was llama "a town read" before I posted.

[SpyreX]

What are your thoughts on what wicked did, and what sando did?

What was ridiculous about me trying to avoid the lynch that disgusted you, and uncovering scumtells in the process?

-----

Both are floating in that morass. Sando is a little more worrisome and probably dead but I'll admit some severe hestitation coming in off that, showing irritation and claiming VT. Wicked's bothersome far, far more for his focus on my "meta" for the early game than the late game stuff. Neither are home runs and I'd much rather have seen an SSBF lynch.

Its not simply a function of avoiding the worst lynch - its the alternative(s) presented.

[SpyreX]

Those are both at Podium.

You're an engima right now. IF there was more time and what with the activity glut I'd probably beat hiphop into going a different direction. As it sits, this is going to be a risk/reward mislynch I'm bettin even though that makes me gag.

[SpyreX]

Night 1, I investigated AlmasterGM, mainly because I felt there was a potential connection between him and Sando, who flipped scum.

I received my result. AlmasterGM is town.

Neverthless, AlmasterGM's claim is really surprising and to be honest, I don't believe it. Two investigative roles doesn't sound like overboard, but three does. I know that AlmasterGM is town, but the only way I'm even going to have a chance at believing it is if he is right about llamaeatataco is scum.

So therefore, here are the possible scenario's:
1. Me and AlmasterGM are the cops (Doubt it)
2. I'm the real cop and charter is the gunsmith (Believe this)
3. AlmasterGM is the cop and charter is the gunsmith (I know I'm town, so no)

I know I'm the cop, so obviously not #3. The first scenario is also very unlikely and too themish for my taste, so I believe that charter and me are the gunsmith and cops respectively.


@AlmasterGM: What if llamaeatataco is actually town? What if I get killed and flip town? What if we're actually both cops? What would be your reaction?

This post makes every fiber of my being want to lynch SSBF. Every bit of it.

And I need to really process what the right way to go is: Like crypto, I think that with what we see Llama makes sense.

However, this still doesn't add up on a fundamental level:

1.) Barring a truly bizarre setup Alamaster is town. No way with a godfather down, and not getting on that wagon, and I STILL FIRMLY BELIEVE one of the other two (SSBF) is scum would you setup a 2-1 scum sided gambling game.
--- With Alamaster being town unless this is some truly magnificent scum-scum dance this setup IS bizarre and, realisitically, there is either a fat scumteam or all scum PR's.
2.) Charter, not SSBF, was roleblocked.
--- Additionally, there was only one kill and it protected this mess. Which means it needs to be cleaved with fire and ropes.
3.) In Llama's faaabulous voting post he claimed a PR. And apparently claimed it before? Yet, of course, softclaims with multiple investigative roles and a guilty is tech.

I don't like it. I don't like when things don't make sense.

Unvote, Vote: Llama

This be tenative yo.

Hiphop is still town, btw.

As for the Sando lynch no I wasn't convinced by podium. However, I was more than happy to sheep with hiphop.

[SpyreX]

GOD quote issues I AM NOT A COP

[SpyreX]

Alamaster is town in all but a few scenarios in which welp I'm not gonna worry because this setup would be borked from the getout soo.

And "ohhh i'm a power rolleeeee" doesn't mean a lot in the best of scenarios but TEAM COP COP ACTION COP really makes me just roll at the softclaims.

[SpyreX]

As town as I think charter is in that mess I'm even more convinced with the way this went down that Alamaster is.

So, if thats the magic bullet welp

[SpyreX]

Thats a big part of it. Its a solid town read. Ya know, like hiphop.

And not you.

[SpyreX]

Pretty sure it did. That claim at that juncture doesn't make sense from scum.

And, yes, its a gut read. Like hiphop - whom I didn't like at start but flipped that town switch like a pro.

[SpyreX]

To cc a "cop" as a gunsmith?

[SpyreX]

Town.

[SpyreX]

For the record its not OHH GOD WE WILL UNRAVEL THE UNIVERSE that makes me want to lynch you (because, yes, while it eliminates options it doesn't make anything "ironclad" (double hint: nothing is "ironclad" ever)).

Its the play. Day 1 was awesome and this new welp lets done get lynching a copclaim and when they're a cop lets go lynch the other because I am a SUPER SECRET PR but I wont say more until deadline scramble time because that's hella helpful and all.

[SpyreX]

"I figured out how he's scum! Its because he's town!"

And if you think this is unnecessary welp keep grabbin for that rope.

I'll just make sure it stays around your neck.

[quote]...Actually, lynching ssbf could be a good idea. Sure it wouldn't tell us anything other than if he's scum or not, but I'm pretty sure he is. But then we'd have to lynch you if he IS a cop. Unless it's a naive/para/gunsmith thing I suggested earlier. hmm.[quote]

Unravel the mystery herein.

[SpyreX]

Hiphop, while I agree that it makes sense that millers don't have guns flavor-wise- oh wait, this is a normal game... Mods aren't allowed to do crazy things to roles in normal games, are they? I was just going to say that if he's a deathmiller, the point is to make it so that we have absolutely no way of knowing if he is scum or town, before or after his lynch.

If the argument you're trying to present is this is normal thus non-normal roles aren't present then nopoint for sure is scum and charter probably is as well. Voting for a "cop" under that guise is silly.

Again, though, you've kept the door wide open consistently as long as its either of them. And have claimed a power role and done everything in your power to not actually say what it is.

I don't want to lynch EITHER of them right now. I want you to hang. If it comes down to it I have a large preference for SSBF and, again, AGM is the for sure town one out of the group regardless of SSBF's "investigation".

But, at heart, everyone is losing site of things like this:

I personally don't care between SSBF and Charter. I don't quite see what was initially super scummy about him, but I haven't really liked his play during the end of d1 or d2. But then again, I disliked Charter's play more. You people seem to have other ideas however, and it's more of a 'who do we lynch first' situation. Wait a minute, scratch that.

Which is pure, raw self preservation.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex what has changed from yesterday and today? You claimed that charter or SSBF has to be scum. You wagon heavily on SSBF. Yet right now you say, "I don't want to lynch either of them right now." Do or do you not believe that one of Charter or SSBF is scum? Then do something about it. Also do you believe that a gunsmith is present when we have a miller and godfather? Do you believe that the mod would make being a godfather or miller useless?

Almaster and Wicked- Do you guys remember the last game? We are not putting off tomorrow what can be accomplished today. Will we be doing this everytime until lylo. What is to happen then? We guess wrong? No,we have to make the choice now.

Who believes that a gunsmith is in the same game as a godfather? And yes a godfather HAS a gun. For he is the one that makes the kills.

CHARTER IS SCUM. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Look at the facts.

While I DO believe one of them to be scum, that is a separate issue than what llama is up to now.

Further, I will freely admit a backflip and go "ohh thats the setup" if llama flips scum - the preservation factor is far, far more individually scummy than that bit.

I mean, look at it sans the claim-gate going on around it.

[SpyreX]

Insane and sane are, once known, straight up cops.

I'm really tired at the moment but how does SSBF = town == LLama = town ?

[SpyreX]

GM is still town fyi and of this whole mess is the only bastion of town.

I still want llama dead because of play.

[SpyreX]

I cant believe I get to go over this again:

As a whole, look at llama's play. Not a function of the guilty or any of that. If I have to go back and quote the rationales for all of the fabulous votes so far.

Now, add into that the "OHH SNAP I HAVE A PR" but opting not to actually

say what it is

under the guise of claiming helps only the scum - which is dubious under the best of circumstances but when we have three claimed investigative roles is a pile of garbage.

Now, lets look at that piece of it:

Today LLama built a case on charter but abandoned it for SSBF when the winds didn't blow. Further, you get quips like this:

Hmm. This Charter/ssbf one is annoying. I still stand by my ssbf first decision. It will help us sort out the cops... Unless he is scum, then it will just make all of us be unsurprised.

Which would be awesome except for the fact that his

initial vote was on charter

. SSBF was a throwaway and this was used to justify, once again, the self-preservation instead of actually committing and doing something.

BUT I KNOW THATS NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH THIS GAME NO SIR so lets examine what happens:

There's a few assumations here but they are pretty solid:

1.) One, and exactly one, of the three claimed roles is lying
--- Barring paranoid/naive/gunsmith having all three be town makes absolutely no sense. And that above setup is woosoh.
--- With a Sando scum flip the only scenario in which there would be two would be Charter + SSBF. And that, good sirs, is just insane.
2.) AGM is the town pick of the group.
--- See above. AGM in all scenarios makes no sense as scum.
3.) Both cop claims, if true, are NOT sane.
4.) This game follows normal strictures and is not an 8-4 setup.

So, with that said:
1.) Llama flips scum.
-- AGM is a sane cop.
-- Hence, SSBF is lying/naive. Money is waay on the former.
-- Charter is a function of investigation. Realistically, if we wanted to seal the deal with no GF present AGM would be investigating charter.

Net result: SSBF-scum (barring investigation), Llama-scum. Game over.
2.) Llama flips town.
-- AGM is an insane cop.
-- Hence, SSBF is a sane cop.
-- Charter is the scum in that pairing. The other exists somewhere else.

AND AND of course "why not Charter / SSBF first?"

Untying the knot needed to happen D1. If its done today AND is a town flip the other actual role is dead. Period.

A scum llama here wins it. A town llama hands us most likely a scum.
A scum PR is a gamble but WOULD pay off. A town PR nets a scum at the cost of all investigative roles.

So, want to play it by numbers? Llama.
Want to actually lynch scum? Llama.

Force the damn hand with it and not play into it ffs.

Why would podium be scum if Sando flipped scum? Podium was one of the strongest supporters of the Sando lynch.

Uhh?

I say nothing about Poduim as scum if Sando is scum.

[SpyreX]

AGM has the right of this.

This is not a public forum for this. Mod really needs to lock it and talk to someone out of the game with what he should do.

[SpyreX]

The difference is, of course, that I have a vote on me but at this juncture it'll come out in the wash.

With that crosskill the chances are real high that SSBF and AGM are town with AGM being insane to SSBF's sane.

Its a done game, just a matter of sweeping it up.

[SpyreX]

If I have to explain how those words up there don't mean what you're trying to make them mean all over again I'll kill someone.

Like I said, sweep it up. WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO ONE OF AGM AND SSBF BEING THE SCUM LYNCH SSBF THANKS IN ADVANCE

[SpyreX]

Wicked is a non-entity and I'm fine with that before the broom goes the other way.

I still can't wrap my head around BOTH of them being town. I was positive llama was going to be a scum flip.

I can't express strongly enough that when the inevitable happens and SSBF/AGM/x are in lylo SSBF goes.

Unvote, Vote: Wicked

[SpyreX]

Nopo makes absolutely no sense as scum. That I'm not backing down on. AGM and nopo being town I'd ride all the way to the bank.

SSBF, if scum, is going to dig himself a hole he cant climb out of.

[SpyreX]

I could maybe swing behind a crypto lynch but, sans votes, wicked has been a non-entity.

[SpyreX]

Damnit hiphop let them fall father down that way. Not one but TWO people harping up that tree?

[SpyreX]

Oh i get it. Missed SSBF. Why did you want them going down that path?

Because ONE person screwing that up makes a little sense.

Two? Not so much.

[SpyreX]

yet it still comes down to the fact, of why wasn't SSBF roleblocked day 1? Is he scum? not roleblocking or killing the cop for two nights? Something is fishy? Also llama wouldn't protect SSBF, being that llama was voting SSBF. So why not kill SSBF? I feel like throwing all crypto wagon out the window, and going after SSBF.

No.

WHILE I agree you are probably right, it still makes sense to let him dig his own grave.

AS LONG AS AGM is alive and whomever the mystical third is when it gets to lylo lynches SSBF INSTEAD its fine.

Sweep up the rest as it goes.

However:

Spyrex- I don't understand. Why did you want them going down that path? Misunderstanding is not a scum tell. If it was, I would be scum for going after Podium on misunderstanding. Is it possible that your wording of that line leads to misunderstanding? Possible because 2 people went after it. Though I don't know why they waited 2 days before finally coming out with it.

Why didn't they mention it yesterday?

Exactly. It isn't a shocking revelation nor, really, can it be a misunderstanding. Of the two I'm waaay more eye raised at wicked the parrot versus SSBF over it but I can't see how that can be interpreted as anything but what it is.

----

I'm fairly easy mode with this though because I have two unbreakable tenets:

1.) AGM is town.
2.) Hiphop is town.

At this juncture with 90% chance of one scum left its a sweep. So, just sweep.

[SpyreX]

The thing that gives me the most pause about crypto is the "why aren't you voting ME" callout at this juncture.

[SpyreX]

Yes, fishing to see if he was buddying up or feigning scum hunting was truly a scummy move of me.

What?

Good lord man I'm voting for wicked and that was in response to "why not crypto" which I was SAYING while you've been a non-entity for a while now the "why not me?"

doesn't make sense as scum

in a decimated team.

But if you want to get all power defensive and not even look at the actual context of what I'm saying and ask for a hammer well

[SpyreX]

No, I said I -could- swing behind a crypto lynch if it came to it. However, ALL wicked has going for him is a voting pattern that looks good until you look at the rationale.

I'd put way more cash money on you being town between the pair.

[SpyreX]

It'll probably come to that before the end. Which is fine as long as what I've been yelling over and over again about AGM and SSBF is actually registered.

On that note it STILL doesn't make sense to lynch either today mr hoppy.

[SpyreX]

Ok 744 is almost enough to make me want you dead homey.

Almost.

While not having scum reads on charter and sando is fine (I didn't on charter and was ambivalent towards sando sans hiphop shove) saying strong town reads on dead town, one of which you helped lynch, isn't doing a whole lot for me.

However, its moot and I still think Wicked has FAR more of a chance to be the blue bomber to our dr wileys around here.

[SpyreX]

Reading through Wickedestjr's ISO, I'm more inclined to believe that he's town for now since he pushed for both Sando's and charter's lynch in some form, never had a town read on either scums, and I liked his overall play, although the read isn't as strong as hiphop's, so I'll still keep a close eye on him.

@SpyreX: You claim that Wickedestjr is a non-entity, basically meaning he's non-existant in this game. Do you think there's a scummy connection between him and Sando/charter? If so, please provide evidence of this.

I'm not saying anything about connections. I'm talking about play. Coming out strongish on the wagons but swaying back and forth (and keep in mind his vote jumped to Nopoint

before

deadline extension) and then throwing a cred-hammer at the inevitable doesn't do it for me.

And the other one that really gets me? After the day 1 slide into nothing?

1. I was right about Llama being town so why are you even using this point against me?

Yea. That one. I'll let it sink in.

But the big one?

You give me two guys and go "WELLL one hammered scum and kinda called out the other and hasn't been wrong about anything but has minimal posts this game and really hasn't said much of anything" versus "WELLLL one guy was categorically wrong on the scum but has been vocal and willing to fight and you know his juncture" and say ONE OF THEM IS SCUM and that's all I've got to go by?

It's gonna be #1. Every time. Being 'right'

looks

town but there isn't depth. I'd take crypto over it every day of the week paranoia or not.

Of course this is moot because its either a sweep already or you're scum. Soooo lets do this.

PREVIEW EDIT: Vanilla (I thought I claimed already?)

[SpyreX]

Hey crypto we're arguing?

The things you learn.

[SpyreX]

Also, is anyone beside me is getting gut feelings that hiphop might be scum?

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

no

[SpyreX]

Wicked and SSBF

[SpyreX]

Deathmiller- How many of you guys think that the deathmiller is town?(nopo please do not comment on this question till all have responded.) With only 3 scum if we lynch nopo and the we have another day then nopo was town, however it is in town's best interest that he be lynched today, tomorrow, or not at all. I think he is town, so I am in favor of him living till end game or being nk'd.

I'm confident enough he is town I would say not at all.

[SpyreX]

Huzzah!

I'm too tired and irritated at this game to even argue.

All I know is there better be a town roleblocker or I'm angry.

[SpyreX]

Wait not even that makes sense.

SSBF lied but it doesn't matter.

Unvote, Vote: SpyreX

[SpyreX]

Two cops of useful sanities (apparently) and a roleblocker AND an elite bodyguard against a Godfather (still lynchable by AGM), a goon and a roleblocker.

Of course it didn't help I thought crypto was my partner d1 and not charter soo.

The mod errors hurt a lot too.

And if you're talkin about my stance on Nopoint - that would have been the same either way. KK won for having brass ones and that doesn't change how I look at it as a whole.

I'll dig up the QT at some point. I'd really like the full setup - I HOPE there is no more PR's around.