Mini 962 - Mafia In Murrieta - Over!

[Scott Brosius]

confirm and

Vote:JackALope2323

Wagon and plz get an avatar.

[Scott Brosius]

1. East Coast US
2. Just had a scumday!
3. My participation runs middle of the road, sometimes less sometimes more.

Mod can you # the vote counts. Helpful for reference later on.

Sure thing.

[Scott Brosius]

Ice tends to have long posts, at least he did in the last game I played with him.

[Scott Brosius]

Seems like a bit of a stretch to unvote someone just because they are at L-3 on D1.

[Scott Brosius]

Scott is lurking, and coming up to slyly suggest the idea of B.S. on Kerrigan's unvote and Gecko's vote, without coming straight out and saying it. He's not being straightforward. Being anything but straightforward is ambiguous, possibly confusing, and therefore scummy.

Don't really understand how I am lurking or being confusing.

@Esponage- I would be more concerned about the excuse of L-3 as a reason to unvote if he didn't have a reason for a new vote. However, he stated his case on Gecko, so I don't really see it as being scummy.

[Scott Brosius]

(Of course, there are some other people in the game who have, as of yet, made any "real" posts. I'm still waiting for them to do so.)

So your case can be applied to a number of people, yet you choose me. I am comfortable with my vote.

[Scott Brosius]

Scott didn't say he disagreed with Gecko's vote. Gecko voted because he thinks Ice is going to bully the rest of the town. Scott didn't say one word about that. Scott didn't say whether he agreed with Kerrigan's vote on Gecko. There's no way you can know where he stands on people, like you're claiming to.

Pretty simple inferences to make, but I shall attempt to be clearer.

[Scott Brosius]

I am back, apologies.

Welcome. Looking forward to your promised big post.
I will make an exception to my never reading a post that is over 10 lines rule due to the circumstances.

This rubs me the wrong way. Why even say this? Lazy does not = scum, but it sure doesn't help if you are town.

Vote Jack

For voting gecko for being "over aggressiveness on someone who has very little (solid) evidence against them" and then voting cruelty and casting suspicions my way...which IMO is acting the same way in which he voted for gecko earlier.

Why even mention having suspicions on yourself as a reason for voting. reeks of OMGUS covered up by the first reason.

Scott is still topping my scumlist. Still posting them one liners, still lurking his pants off, still scummy.

Well you'll have to get used to me being straight to the point. I say what I need to in as few words as possible.

Ultimately, if I understand your read of me correctly, some of my actions thus far give you a town impression, but my playstyle's resemblance to the other game is giving you pause and drawing me back down to neutral. I like it when people think I'm town; I get lynched less often that way, and people like me better.

So finding out what's troubling folks about me and then attempting to convince them why they shouldn't be worried about it is a helpful thing for me to do.

Well this is the point of the game. Everyone is trying to appear town to some extent. I agree with Ice about your questioning of his neutral read seems like you care a bit too much what he thinks of you.

Someone ask me something. I'm bored and have gotten bored trying to read the long posts. Might do it if someone thinks I should.

Sigh. You need questions to participate?

I tend to agree that Jack is probably eager town. My second choice for scum at the moment would be fitz.

As for the stupid ambiguity argument, as someone said, I have not seen anyone provide an alternate meaning for what I said. So I still fail to see where this argument is coming from.

Unvote
Vote: Espeonage

[Scott Brosius]

@ Scott: Please explain your vote on Espeonage.

Not willing to read, needs people to ask him questions to participate. Just shows that he is not coming up with original ideas and is distracting and anti-town.

[Scott Brosius]

Has anyone played with SK as town? Some people just get over-defensive when anyone attacks them, but it reminds me of his behavior in the last game I played with him before he replaced out (he was scum).

[Scott Brosius]

I'm happy with my vote. I am starting to get more and more scum vibes from Geko.

And I am happy with mine.

[Scott Brosius]

His vote is on Espeonage now though.

[Scott Brosius]

I think espeonage's contribution to the game has been suspect. And when I say contribution...I'm not talkking post counts because he is one of the more active posters. He is just doing an exceptional job of not saying anything when he does post.

Which is more interesting/scummy than someone who is just lurking.

[Scott Brosius]

Quote fail, fitz wrote the above not ICE.

[Scott Brosius]

My second choice for scum at the moment would be fitz.

Please expand on this suspicion. I see no comments at all in your ISO regarding fitz.

At the time, his participation was weak and part of his reason for his vote on jack was casting suspicions his way, which did not sit well with me. He's gotten better as of late.

[Scott Brosius]

Scott

, while you're here, can you give me your reasoning behind your Espeonage vote? Would you be prepared to lynch him now if the wagon grew? Who's your second choice?

I gave my reason (active lurking, refusing to read, asking others to ask him questions instead of just participating, anti-town tendencies) and I started the wagon. So I don't understand your opportunistic comment.

I also fail to see how all of the scum-tells Esp is giving off together make him town. Two negatives don't make a positive.

[Scott Brosius]

[

In my mind you're the one that mostly fits the model of active lurking though. How do you feel about this? Would you like to enlighten me of all the information/scumhunting you've contributed so far?


The only crimes Espeonage is guilty of is fence sitting and refusing to read posts. These aren't scummy, because I don't think scum do this more than town. It is certainly anti-town play though, and I hope it stops. Why do you think these tells are more likely to come from scum than town? Or do you just see it as anti-town?

I don't really have a reaction to it. I get accused of it often, doesn't bother me. I feel its due more to my concise posts than anything.

I guess we'll have to disagree about fence-sitting and refusing to read being scummy. Refusing to read is different than laziness. Laziness is a null tell to me, but an outright refusal to read is scummy to me.

[Scott Brosius]

So you don't mention me in any previous posts and now I have leapfrogged onto your back-up lynch list. You keep making me more and more confident in my vote.

[Scott Brosius]

Gambits are so useless and rarely help the town. Why couldn't you do this as scum? It's not like you put yourself at L-1, L-3 is still safe. If you are town, you are presenting yourself as an easy target for scum.

[Scott Brosius]

I don't think scum would do this either, but that is up to us to decide and not SK.

[Scott Brosius]

It isn't time to prove your innocence. You've tried and people aren't buying it. It's time to prove another's guilt.

And what if we lynch someone other than me and they turn out to be town? Then it's Day 2, I'm still there, and half the town has grave suspicions of me. Like you said, no one is believing what I have to say about myself. So why try and save myself for a future mislynch? Why not just get my mislynch out of the way as quickly as possible so the town can get its act together and figure out who the real scum are?

But it doesn't help at all. You get mislynched (if you are town) and we learn nothing. You are creating an easy out for scum (if you are town) to jump on your wagon citing your meltdown.

[Scott Brosius]

I have only seen self-vote done as town, but it seems others have seen it done as scum. I also don't like the unvote, you were so high and mighty about sacrificing yourself for the betterment of the town, removing yourself as a distraction. Then you come in and place a convenient unvote when you are at L-1.

@Jack: Anti-town and scum both prevent the town from winning, but they are certainly not the same.

Unvote
Vote: SaintKerrigan

L-1 again

[Scott Brosius]

We're not going to find any scum if we keep eating at Denny's

Esp was a top scum read of mine yesterday, and it hasn't changed.

Vote: Espeonage

[Scott Brosius]

Care to give reasons for this that actually make sense? As someone pointed out yesterday, compiling a number of slight scum tells in to one overall town read doesn't fly.

Because it just isn't what scum do. We've already wasted a lynch on SaintKerrigan due to his VI-like play, I don't want to waste this one too. When something is classified as a scumtell, it means it's our interpretation that it is something scum is more likely to do than town. Since scum make up a minority of players, a scum tell only needs to have a ~30%+ successrate for it to be useful. Some are weaker and stronger than others, and many players will wildly misinterpret (generally overly trust) how valuable a particular tell is. People just adding up the numbers and list of indiscretions isn't going to catch you scum. What the Espeonage wagon boils down to is a circle-jerk of wiki-tells that three or four people keep parroting as if it's enough explanation in itself, but they don't try to unearth the motivation behind his play.

Yes, he fence-sits, yes, he doesn't read, yes, his play is anti-town. But nobody cares enough to examine the motivations behind his play. How on earth can this be a viable scumtactic? I think the likeliest scenario for his play has been disinterest because it strongly reminds me of how I have played as town before. It is easy to become detached when your influence over the game is minimal. His behavior mimics this mindset perfectly, because I don't believe it is a devious scum strategy, with Esp sitting back going, 'Ha! Ha! I can get away without posting reasons, and claiming to not read, this will work, tehehehe!'

I've said it before, but it feels like scum are likelier to be pushing Esponage, than Espeonage actually being scum. There is no way that there weren't scum on his wagon yesterday, which incriminates Scott and charter. I have a preference for Scott.

So because you have "acted like him" as town before means he is probably town? That notion holds absolutely no water. You seem to have the idea that people play scum very well, being devious and cunning and covering all their tracks. This is not true.

Also I hate the "THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SCUM ON HIS WAGON" argument. Of course. If its a wagon, general probability says there will be scum. A wagon needs to consist of more than half of the game. Scum will be there.

Almaster is acting like it's utterly impossible to have a town read on SK, while completely ignoring my logic for doing so. That's how scum chain mislynches.

Vote: AlmasterGM

Wow, OMGUS much? The fact is SK was scummy as hell and I don't blame anyone for lynching him over his gambit crap. The fact that you magically thought to defend him is absurdly sketch.

And I'm totally down for Scott wagon. Let's roll.

Vote: Scott

This is ALWAYS suspicious. The "I'll call someone else sketchy yet slip a vote in on someone else." Why didn't you vote SMAP? Please refer me to a post where you mention me as a possible suspect. I'm hard pressed to believe that post exists.

Unvote
Vote: AlmasterGM

[Scott Brosius]

I hate the argument because it is painfully obvious. Of course scum are going to be on wagons. It always looks like a fluff reason to me especially used by itself (ex. I'm voting Player A because there was probably scum on Player B's wagon! Yet that case can be applied to Players C-H since they were on the wagon too). Just a weak reason when used alone.

[Scott Brosius]

And for your first comment, more of an attempt to get Almaster to do something in this game than laziness.

[Scott Brosius]

Well then my fellow townsfolk. Do we lynch me or do we lynch Scott. I believe that is the question of the day. Personally I would prefer a Scott lynch but then again that kind of goes without saying.

Why are you giving up so easily?

I'm not giving up. I am just stating the obvious. There is still a chance that me and Scott are both town but I don't think he is. Therefore the point of the matter is that this day phase is pivotal. If you lynch me and get my town flip it will mean the scum is most probably Scott and two others. (Assuming a 3 mafia team, I have seen two and a traitor before but that is basically 3 mafia anyways.) If we lynch Scott and get his flip it will mean that the game can move forward. Most likely we will be in a good position with two scum left to find BUT if he flips town we will then fall back behind when the probable mislynch of me occurs as well as the mislynch of Scott if he is indeed town.

Scott is in my opinion the best lynch of the day. He has been scummy from day one with his opinions at the start of day one and there have been other factors of his play that have been scummy as well along the way. The other good reason is that his lynch lets town get forward. We get him as scum and we can move on. If he is town then we know that the scum lies in the people setting up the town v town day two.

I am by no means trying to close the day early, just stating what the day will most likely boil down to. We should still let discussion continue so that we are in a better position tomorrow.

That first paragraph is complete fluff probably based off of a false premise.

As for the second paragraph, how have I been scummy? Throwing out vague notions that I am scummy is completely useless. I want details. You are still my top suspect, but I am not putting you at L-1 this early into D2.

[Scott Brosius]

I agree with Ice that the lack of Esp offering the situation if he is scum is not good reasoning. No player is going to do this, and honestly if they did, I almost feel like that would be trying too hard to be town.

[Scott Brosius]

This doesn't change my opinion of Esp, just noting that reasoning is not good.

[Scott Brosius]

This game is getting fairly weak, guys. People need to step it up. A lot.

Scott you just posted twice, having completely ignored the fact that a decent number of people have voted you, and that I posted a fairly decent case against you. Don't you have anything to say about that?

Kerrigan was anti-town and yes I voted him on that premise. He created a distraction too big to ignore.

The top 2 scummiest players are on my wagon. That should say something.

Everyone should comment on the 3 wagons at the moment if they haven't already.

[Scott Brosius]

How does one statement by AGM warrant moving off your “top scum read”? Was your scum read on Esp that weak that it could easily be overtaken?

Hardly just that statement, general lurking not scumhunting etc. My scum read on esp is still there. If I kept my vote on him at that time, he would have been at L-1 barely 1.5 pages into D2. I don't care how scummy anyone acts, that is too short for a day to last.

[Scott Brosius]

And he should go ahead and claim. He's at L-2 and it's not going to get any further away than that any time soon.

Minor role fishing, there really wasn't a need for a claim at this point

Charter, I don't know, I can just see Hider being something that fits with the set-up.

Do you know something about the setup we don't?



I tend to believe Esp's claim for the time being. I am fine with my vote where it is. If Esp wants to hide behind me tonight, that's fine too.

[Scott Brosius]

I like Magna's 477, feel like that comes from town. The discrepancy in Hoopla's opinion about me and AGM is an interesting point.

Hoopla's defense is weak and wants Magna to ask questions of him in order for him to defend himself.

Agree with Ice's 480 opinion on SAMP asking for Esp claim at L-2. Mentioned that earlier

SAMP 495- Disagree with L-1 quicklynches happening. It doesn't happen nearly as often as people think in my experience. Seems like a lame reason to defend the request for a claim at L-2

505- I am neutral on charter, minor scum read on SAMP, I would say Hoopla is the scummiest of the 3. However, I'm not really sold on any lynch yet.

Unvote

AGM has been better in terms of participation and content. I have to think about this some more.

[Scott Brosius]

I'm not as thrilled as I was earlier in the day with the AGM lynch, but his participation did only start when he had a wagon on him and that one post calling SAMP scummy but voting me still rubs me the wrong way.

Were you intending to breadcrumb your role Hoop? Your comment about Esp's role making sense in this setup pretty much narrowed you down to scum or town PR.

Vote: AlmasterGM

[Scott Brosius]

Agree with Ice about Esp. Even as a mislynch today, it gives us so much information.

Need to see flavor before making a determination about the other kill. I have played a game as an even-day town vig before, but that game also had a SK.

Vote: Espeonage

[Scott Brosius]

I am VT, need to reread with everything going on.

[Scott Brosius]

The fact that scum tracker has not appeared in past games is not really relevant to this game. Any role is possible, the past does not dictate what roles are in this game.

The >1 power role for scum is a better argument, but as someone who has played in a broken setup before, I still keep an open mind that anything is possible.

I am fine with Ice's plan.

[Scott Brosius]

Vote: Charter

I know I'm not the SK and if Hoop tracked AGM nowhere, there's no other option.

[Scott Brosius]

Yeah the game was won by process of elimination more than anything. I'll take the win however. Thx for modding wolf.

One thing that keeps coming up and I heartily disagree with, was Hoopla's defense of Esp. I have seen time and time again ridiculously anti-town, scummy players get off the hook because they are TOO scummy, or the notion that "there is no way they would act this way as scum, it's too obvious". If not for the SK meltdown D1, I still don't think we would have lynched Esp. The last few games I have played, there has been a seriously scummy player let off the hook due to this faulty reasoning. I think people expect the scum to play really really well and cover their tracks perfectly. This is not the case. I have just grown tired of that defense.