Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[charter]

Let me try and read up, I hope I can do it by tonight.

[charter]

Ok, I started reading the thread, but Ythan annoyed the shit out of me and I couldn't read his crap. I made a big post saying as much, but I see he was replaced, so I'm going to pick up from that point.

[charter]

Ok, I can't really understand your posts Zorblag, can you give like a plain english summary at the bottom of long ones? 534 I got the gist of, correct pro town theory in there.

544, Scumhunting by Ray. Amazing.
Thor looks pretty town.
Copper looks really scummy. Doubly so with trying to lynch Rayfrost because of a minor rules violation. Looks like he's trying to push a lynch on someone other than his scumbuddy. Then switches with a useless vote on the CSL.
TCC replacing out is typical of newbscum.

I'm trying to decide who is the scummiest out of Kthxbye, TCC, and Copper. I'm really not seeing any way that Copper and TCC aren't scumbuddies. My predecessor was voting TCC, so I'll just leave it on him.

If I missed something terribly important, let me know.

[charter]

I read like the first five pages, tore my hair out and skipped to where Ythan was replaced (page 20 or so). I literally have no idea where my predecessor stands on anything, other than I agree with him that TCC is scum.

[charter]

I really think [Pom] is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath....
...You are not the only person to think this, I'm also on this wagon. I'm feeling TCC town and have since her wagon built.

Do I take it you draw the difference between the two because you read TCC as lurking and Pom as active lurking? Is there anything more/less to the distinction?

Pretty much yeah. Pom is pretending to scum hunt without actually providing anything of real use. I have asked her opinions a couple of times and nothing has resulted from it. I'm finding her really fake and scummy.

Can you show a few examples for me?

charter: One of the points in your very small, opinionated, and unreferenced case on copper is that he switches with a useless vote for CSL. You then proceed to vote him in what I see as an equally useless vote. Care to elaborate how this is a scum-tell for him but not one for you? Would you also consider this action a scum-tell for Sotty's recent switch? Also, would you care to at least give post numbers of coppers that back up your accusations of him?

I didn't vote Copper, I kept it on TCC. I don't think Sotty's vote for Pom is useless since she's trying pretty hard to get others to vote Pom (and succeeding). Scummy posts of Copper:
542, defends TCC big time after he gets put at L-1. Goes on about how it's scum fueled and how we need to let TCC post more and live a few more days. It assumes that TCC is town when I don't know how he could know that.
572, tacks on the reason of "I think with Ythan and RayFrost's unfortunate and awkward game discussion outside of the thread, the town owes it to itself to see at least one of these players in the noose." as to why we should lynch Ray. That's not a reason why Ray is scum, but it is a reason to try and lynch him, something scum need to think up.
590, votes CSL because CSL voted TCC. I took CSL's vote as a joke, because there's no way 'smilies=scum' is a passable reason to vote someone, but Copper is saying it's scummy.

Charter has gone so far as to say that both TCC and I must be scumbuddies for my arguing that she is town - while simultaneously ignoring my arguments on why I think that.

Your argument is 'the wagon grew too fast' which doesn't make TCC town. You can have a wagon on scum grow just as fast as a wagon on town. It's just a reason that sounds good, but isn't valid.

[charter]

Basically, Copper has a habit of trying to pass of shady reasoning as legit, which is scummy. This shady reasoning is used to defend TCC, which is why I think they're buddies.

[charter]

Scummy posts of Copper:
542, defends TCC big time after he gets put at L-1. Goes on about how it's scum fueled and how we need to let TCC post more and live a few more days. It assumes that TCC is town when I don't know how he could know that.

You do realize that day meant real life day and not game day, yes? Why must you assume someone is town to want to hear what they have to say a little longer? I've already given my reasons as to why I think TCC is town, but wanting to hear from someone at L-1 is something that's true regardless of what I think their alignment is and I'm not sure what else you're suggesting.

Yes, I know you meant real days, but that's irrelevant. You were attempting to stall the lynch. The reason why pussyfooting around is bad is because it gives the person more time to wiggle their way out of a lynch. This is pretty much what is currently happening with TCC.

590, votes CSL because CSL voted TCC. I took CSL's vote as a joke, because there's no way 'smilies=scum' is a passable reason to vote someone, but Copper is saying it's scummy.

And you're saying you don't think putting someone to L-2 with a joke vote is scummy?

Not really, since he just replaced in. The scummiest thing CSL is doing is lurking his pants off, but I don't see you arguing him being scum for that. You're trying to make your case look stronger with points like his joke vote that aren't indicative of alignment.

If anyone still wants to lynch TCC, then I want to hear your intrepretation of events. Are there busing scum on her wagon - and if so, what slots? If there are no busing scum, then how did her wagon swell with such speed?

I don't know if scum are bussing or not, since I didn't see the reasons most people gave for voting. Wagons can balloon without scum on it. Saying a wagon grew too fast DOES NOT mean that there is scum on it, mean the wagonee is town, NONE OF THAT. True, one of those could be true, but you can't equate fast wagon with scum involvement.

Though I will certainly agree there is an argument for a TCC/Copper combo how does this then feed in to the way Copper reacted to the Pom vote switch (in which I feel Copper reacted basically the same way as they did to the TCC upswell).

Are you going with TCC/Copper/Pom or do you differentiate how Copper reacted to the Pom and TCC wagons?

No, the situations aren't very similar. Copper said a lot more to try and stop a TCC lynch. With Pom all he said was 'leaves a bad taste in my mouth' or something much weaker like that. Copper also tried switching targets to CSL once TCC was under fire because no one was following the Ray wagon.

Pom & charter: Is it normally a habit of either of you to try to select scum pairs on Day 1, before any flips or investigations?

Hell yes I do. Do it most games and I find it very effective. While looking for some games where I've done this, I stumbled across this one where there were two competing wagons. One Pom and the other scum, seems eerily similar to here. Didn't really look for scumbuddies until day two there, but had them called. Did it here and had them called too http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182.

Have to go, can find more later.

[charter]

unvote, vote Pom

Haven't had time to read, hope this is before deadline.

[charter]

Ugh, what a pickle. Between Copper, Kthx, and Socrates, there is massive scummage. In addition to everything from yesterday, they've all already been scummy today. Copper's first post today was ultrascummy. A load of NK WIFOM garbage coupled with a lot of nothing. Kthx's vote is really hypocritical, though well placed. Socrates inherited TCC's role which is scummy with his connections to Copper plus his response to Fate's case against him. He strawmanned it down to 'Fate voted me because I played well in another game' when Fate gave several more reasons. Some of them I don't think Socrates can really respond to, but he shrugged those off by saying he's lazy.

Right now I'm gonna stick with

vote Socrates

and try this number again.

[charter]

Charter, you think Fate is town?

No.
The major hesitation I have with Fate is how Copper keeps coming up with these absurd reasons for suspecting him. Yesterday it was CSL made a joke vote, so that made him scum. Today it's 'the mod let Fate choose which slot he replaced in to' he's questioned him in a couple posts. Copper mixes these things that have no bearing on Fate/CSL's alignment in with things that are scummy to inflate his case, which is scummy of Copper and the reason I'm suspicious of Copper and not Fate/CSL. If it was just once I'd write it off, but there's a pattern of it happening, which I can't ignore.

[charter]

Copper's first post today was ultrascummy. A load of NK WIFOM garbage coupled with a lot of nothing.

It was the first post of the day, were you expecting a wall? How is a quick framing post scummy in a way that, say, Locke's first post today is not?

I'm also curious as to why you as well seem hell-bent on ignoring the possibility of gleaning information from the night kill.

This is another extremely scummy post. First, you strawman my accusation by asking why you would be expected to post a wall, which isn't why I said your post was scummy. I didn't mention length at all. Your first post was scummy, it's perfectly possible to make a good first post of the day. Second, you're trying to shift blame on to Locke now, as well. Locke's post was different, he was asking you and Fate questions as well.

You accuse me on being hell-bent on ignoring the possibility of gleaning information from the night kill. Where have I said we should ignore the NK? I said your post was a load of garbage because you throw out like three different scenarios but that's it. It's just active lurking. If anyone can actually get something from the NK, that's great, but you're not trying to do that, you're just posting fluff.

Once again, when a player's only contribution is a joke vote that puts the largest and fastest growing wagon to L-2, you don't think that's scummy?

No, how that does that benefit him as scum more than town? I don't see much benefit regardless of alignment. The only way you could say it helps him if he's scum is if TCC is town and he has two buddies that can hammer. Here you are assuming TCC is town, when there's no good reason to. Now that I think about it, this reeks of you knowing TCC would be a mislynch.

unvote, vote Copper

I think his first post was scummy today, then when I call him on it, he strawmans and tries to shift blame on to Locke. He's using the assumption of TCC as town to suspect Fate. His arguments are full of accusations with no bearing on alignment. He's just faking his scumhunting.

Sotty, how are you agreeing with what Copper is saying? What about what he says not relating to Fate?

Zorblag, do you think Copper is suspicious? What do you make of Copper's assuming TCC/Socrates is town?

[charter]

I'll have something tonight, been quite busy.

[charter]

I'll have something tonight, been quite busy.

Just kidding, will shoot for tomorrow.

[charter]

What do you mean, shift blame on to Locke? I was pointing out that yes, there wasn't much content in my first post, because it was a quick post with my initial thoughts, but how is this scummy compared to other quick posts with initial thoughts? I simply used Locke as my example.

I mean that when I called your first post scummy you asked why didn't I suspect Locke as well. That's trying to shift blame.

Are you seriously accusing Copper of active lurking? You have to remember that when 'posting fluff' is forwarded as a scumtell, it's generally because that slot is attempting to get away without posting anything else. That's not at all the case here . The day started, and there was a night kill I didn't understand, so I posted my first impressions of it. I'm not asking that you treat this as a solid contribution, but you can't accuse a single post of active lurking - that's something you apply to the net contribution of a slot, and looking at only half of Copper's posts would still make an active lurking charge senseless.

Ok, I shouldn't have said active lurking, I just meant it was a fluff post.

I don't understand the 'two buddies that can hammer' sentiment. What's so hard to believe about CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast-growing wagon and hoping townies take it to L-1 and hammer? Why would only his buddies be able to vote for TCC after him?

It's not hard to believe CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast growing wagon. It's just as not hard to believe CSL as town doing the same thing. It was a joke vote, so a quickhammer like you describe seems inconceivable.

This is noteworthy because I think the Socrates wagon is the pinnacle of 'accusations with no bearing on alignment', as you can see in the part of this post directed at Zorblag. I'd appreciate it if you could point how my case on Fate is alignment-independent in a way that the 'case' on Socrates is not.

CSL making a joke vote, not indicative of alignment. Speed of TCC wagon doesn't make TCC town, so using that assumption to call CSL scum is even worse. As for why I suspect Socrates is because of how you defend TCC when there's no reason to, I don't see any way other than you two being buddies. Also TCC replacing out when he was under pressure. Socrates's posts at the start of day two were bad, as well, but he's fixed that. I'm not positive on everyone else's reasons for voting Socrates.

I'm trying to post in shorter segments both to prevent a great wall of text and because I had a huge post typed up and then my browser crashed.

[charter]

Sotty, how are you agreeing with what Copper is saying? What about what he says not relating to Fate?

I'm not a huge fan of the night kill post but I am feeling more Coppertown than Copperscum at this point. What do you think about his/my case that Fate is scum?

I think there's some merit, but with both Copper and Socrates going after Fate, I'm afraid Fate is just Pom 2.0.

I have also been working of the thought that TCC/Socrates is town, does that make me scummy as well?

Why do you think he's town? Are you using the same dodgy reasons as Copper? If you have some actual reason for thinking that, then it doesn't, but if your reason is something not telling like 'wagon speed' then yeah, that would make you scummy.

I'm not sure I see where charter is going with the presumption Copper is making of TCC=town making Copper scum since Copper was claiming that fairly early and fairly often and charter never commented on it then, certainly not with a vote.

I explained this in 642 and 643, and I didn't vote Copper at the time because it was near deadline and I was voting TCC.

@charter - Is the Copper clearing of TCC the crux of your case, or does it have to be paired with the "scum tell" of NK speculation? If you think he did it to score town points for defending a townie TCC how do you feel about his Pom defense the same day which was infinitely weaker and he explicitly distanced from a defense of it when I asked him about his attitude towards the two defenses?

No, it's how he's clearing TCC, which I elaborated on in 642. I said yesterday that his defense of Pom and TCC were nothing similar, that his Pom one was feeble. I don't really think Copper is trying to score town points by defending TCC, I think he did it to try and save his buddy because the reasons he uses are pretty bad. He didn't really give any reason for not liking the Pom wagon, so that seems much more like trying to distance from a town wagon.

[charter]

Kthx's post 772 is super terrible. Claiming like that with like zero votes, I don't even know what to make of that.

Ok, 774 is really bad as well. Fate, is there any reason other than wagoning you have for voting Copper? Ok, got to 775, actually has some valid points, such as "I don't like how you're subtly setting up TCC's slot to be a PR" and "Where you distance yourself from calling TCC a disinterested townie by saying you did suspect him at one point or another? Yeah, it was noted"

Alright, I'm still thinking Copper and Socrates are scum. Fate looks pretty good with his posts on this page.

[charter]

Also

Vote count please

[charter]

What I'm getting at is, do you feel the TCC/Socrates slot is scummy only in connection with Copper's defense of it, or do you feel it is scummy as a separate entity unto itself.

Mostly Copper's defense of him. Socrates himself has been pretty meh, he really hasn't said much except in response to Fate.

It's part wagon speed in collaboration with how slow the rest of the game was and part newbie gut read. I will say that Socrates isn't oozing protowness in this game. It's making my nose itch.

That's pretty shifty, but you threw your gut in there, so there's nothing else to say. From what I gather, you're not using your town read as a reason to vote Fate though.

Then what of Ythan's slot?

If Ythan was still in this game, I would not be doing anything but pushing for a lynch on him. His playstyle needs to be punished with a swift lynch in every game he's in until he stops doing it. He's absolutely guilty of active lurking.

That's not accurate in the slightest. Pom's wagon was brought about as a compromise lynch towards the very end of the day. How is that even close to resembling the case against Fate?

Pom was an easy lynch. Lurky, not scumhunting, pretty much an easy target. Fate's early posts today were pretty bizarre, but I'm afraid he's just another easy target. I actually find it pretty suspicious that Sotty unvoted TCC to vote Pom, and now she's voting Fate. Not really any good scumhunting at all coming from her. The three people I find most suspicious are currently voting Fate, so yeah, it looks like the easy wagon of day two.

[charter]

I NEVER VOTED FOR TCC I CLEARED THAT UP IN MY LAST POST.

How did you miss that?

That's a good question. That lessens suspicion on you quite a bit.

Also didn't you say that my case on Fate has some merit? How is that not good scum hunting?

I said the case on Fate has merit. The case on Fate is his inconsistencies with regard to his opinion on Socrates. He pretty much did that himself, no one did anything to get it out of him. I dunno, it just seems weak.

[charter]

Sorry guys, just not having any time for mafia these days, I'm going to read up and post tomorrow, I hope.

[charter]

Charter-Consistent suspicions of Copper, not much else. Charter, Sotty pointed this out, but is it true you still haven't read through D1 and analyzed it? You haven't said about other players.

I started from where Ythan was replaced. I didn't read before that, and I'm not going to. I tried starting at the beginning, but I only got a few pages in before the only thing I could think of was Ythan had me wanting to lynch him on site.

I am not liking how both charter and now Fate have clearly missrepped me. Thor also did this, but I'm feeling more a genuine mistake. I really want a Fate lynch at this point. charter is a likely buddy.

I did misrep you, but it was a mistake. I don't think a really obvious mistake like that is scummy of me. Criticize me for being paranoid, but a clearly verifiable fact that I had wrong isn't something I could hope to try and get away with. I had just remembered the game wrong. Why am I a likely buddy for Fate? Because I keep coming up with reasons not to vote him? I think that my top two suspects voting Fate is a pretty good reason for my hesitations.

Okay enough of this. I'm a gunsmith and I looked at Copper last night. He doesn't have a gun.

Ok,

unvote

.

Unvote: Copper
Vote: Socrates

Do you think that Socrates is scummy independent of Copper? I kind of thought from before you thought that they were scumbuddies, which now only makes sense to entertain if Sotty is revealed as scum first.

Haven't had time to do any catching up, except on Charter, and my conclusion on the analysis of Charter's slot is that Inquisitor JL didn't do anything to set off my scumdar, and Charter has done some things I agree with, some things I disagree with, and nothing that overall makes me feel particularly inclined to lynch him.

Ummm, so what exactly did you agree and disagree with? I can say I agree and disagree with anyone's posts and it leaves it really open to changing your mind later.

Upon a re-read I now see it likely that Charter was piggy backing on my reasonings against Copper/Sotty. I can see a Soc/Charter/Pie team.

You're joking, right? I was suspicious of Copper since before you were in the game and my reasons for suspecting Sotty weren't real.

As if to scold my vote on Copper (if the Copper lynch went through he could point to my vote as weakest D3). Later in that post he goes on to say I look "pretty good" with my posts on that page. Slight buddying, egging on a town on town fight (me and Copper)?

Yeah, I was scolding your vote because that's all that was in the post. When I got to the next page and saw your reasoning, I thought there were good points there. Just voting to bandwagon like you said in your post was pretty suspect.

Thats a nice useless fluff post. Oh and pushing an imaginary PL while you're at it. Awesome.

Someone asked for my opinion on Ythan, so I was giving it.

I like Fate's points on charter as they make a lot of sense.

What points of his do you like? I thought they were all pretty terrible.

Going to

vote Fate

His claims that I've followed his suspicions on Socrates and Copper are just plain wrong. I'd been voicing suspicion of them since before he was in the game and my reasons were different than his.

After Sotty claims, he completely shifts all his reasons for his suspicions so he can put a vote back on Socrates. His post looks like an excuse to put down a vote.

He keeps shifting his reasons for suspecting Socrates every time someone points out flaws in them. It's like he's constantly searching for a reason that people will accept, not that he's actually trying to find scum.

In other news, I would do a massclaim or massgunclaim. Other than Fate, I'm highly suspicious of Pie. I was suspicious of Kthx (though I don't even remember why now) and I get the impression Pie is blowing a bunch of smoke with the massclaim idea rather than looking for scum. The only real opinions I've gleaned from him are he thinks Thor is town and that he supports the Kerrigan wagon but isn't voting for it. I get the impression he's waiting until the last possible moment before he votes since there will be less accountability then.

[charter]

I don't have a gun.

[charter]

You go.

When are you planning on voting?

[charter]

What points of his do you like? I thought they were all pretty terrible.

His analysis of you Day 1 is fairly accurate in my opinion and is making me reassess certain thoughts I had about you.

I also thought he had scored a solid one with your Ythan lynch commentary because I recalled even at the time you made it I wondered why you were being so vehement about it at a point where the player and the problem were long gone. Your subsequent defense of it in your response post makes sense. Clearly it is intrinsic upon me to go back and look at that stuff again and see what my read is.

He didn't analyze any of my play. It was mostly an IIOA summary of my posts. He draws some wrong conclusions from my posts from day two as well, which I refuted in my last post. Copper asked if I thought Ythan was active lurking.

[charter]

Frustration of Ythan's play=Nulltell (I'm a fan ftr, except the 20page D1 part). Continuing to try and paint that slot as scummy without mentioning Kthx or Pie?
Scummy.

I never said Ythan was scummy, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I did talk about Pie and Kthx. Maybe go back and recheck my posts.

Sure, but you took my side on the whole debate of me vs Copper/Sotty, while voting Socrates, not Copper. If you had started out the day with your suspicions on Copper I could have seen you're consistent "town" train thought. However you came in, saw the replacement had voted TCC's slot, and rode on that wagon with me while egging a town on town fight.

No. You're having serious delusions here. You voting Socrates had no bearing on me voting him. Plus, I'm pretty sure you just committed a massive scumslip, with your (bad) accusation of me egging on a town on town fight, which would be you and Socrates. You've been voting Socrates all over the place today, but you just called him town. Good try scum.


If this slipup doesn't convince everyone you're full of it, I'll bother with refuting the rest of your post, but I don't want this gold mine to get lost in a big post.

[charter]

Sure, but you took my side on the whole debate of me vs Copper/Sotty, while voting Socrates, not Copper. If you had started out the day with your suspicions on Copper I could have seen you're consistent "town" train thought. However you came in, saw the replacement had voted TCC's slot, and rode on that wagon with me while egging a town on town fight.

No. You're having serious delusions here. You voting Socrates had no bearing on me voting him. Plus, I'm pretty sure you just committed a massive scumslip, with your (bad) accusation of me egging on a town on town fight, which would be you and Socrates. You've been voting Socrates all over the place today, but you just called him town. Good try scum.

I'm quoting this again because just about everyone posted and only Cyberbob voted for Fate, and this is a really clear scumfession. I'd like anyone not voting Fate to explain why this isn't the scummiest thing they've seen.

[charter]

So he did...

Yeah Sotty claims and two innocents basically came forward. Of course I changed my suspicions, why didn't you? Are you going to point out evidence of my reasons for suspecting Socrates? I don't see where I've changed them, as Socrates hasn't even changed his play. The only thing I changed was thinking Socrates was buddying up to Sotty/Copper when I learned those two were town.

I'm saying you changed your reasons for suspecting Socrates to fit in with Sotty's claim. Right after she claimed, you claimed that Socrates was scum for buddying with them and seemingly dropped all your earlier reasons. Claiming someone is scum because they're buddying is pretty weak.

Oh here you are. Now, are YOU joking? You don't remember why you were suspicious of Kthx? Also why would scum (besides it being part of pie's "meta" and him to be expected to do it) push a plan that will likely backfire on them/narrow their options? Also SK is waiting to vote as well, yet you don't mention this. I can see you two as buddies easy

Since I replaced in almost a month ago and I haven't thought much about Kthx since then, yeah, I'd have to go and reread to remember why I was suspicious of him. How exactly is pushing a massclaim going to backfire on scum? I didn't realize Kerrigan wasn't voting.

Kerrigan, when are you going to vote?
Copper, same thing.

[charter]

Well, that was just about the most convenient claim (has a gun, power role, and no result) I've ever seen someone make when run up, and thusly, is probably the thing I'm most suspicious of Kerrigan for, though that pales in comparison to my suspicion on Fate and Pie. I'm sticking with Fate.

[charter]

Pie, who's your top suspect right now?

Thor, same question.

I'm going to be out of town for a few days, most likely with no access.

vote Pie

Pie's 'Fate is scum' post seems pretty over the top, and he's still basically active lurking by just blabbering about massclaim.

Thor spent most of yesterday saying he thought Fate was scum, but never did anything about it until his quickhammer.

[charter]

I'm back, I should be able to catch up tonight.

[charter]

You either haven't been reading or don't want to bother forming your own attack.

FoS: Charter. Don't like the whole post, especially where he accuses Thor of a quickhammer. Having the balls to hammer is not scummy.

Going back and reading all your posts, you do have some accusations and suspicions, so it's not as bad as I thought, I misremembered. But that's not the main reason I was suspicious of you, which I guess I had just assumed people would read my mind about since I didn't list it. However, you said basically nothing about Fate the whole time you've been in the game, and Fate was scum. It looks like you just didn't want to add fuel to the fire of his lynch and at the same time not defend him, basically keep your mouth shut about him. Plus, when I said something like "I don't remember why I thought Kthx was scum" Fate jumped all over that calling me scum for it. He saw this hole in my accusation of you and tried to spin it back on to me.

Hammering isn't scummy, but the way Thor did I find suspicious. I call hammers without a claim quickhammers, didn't mean for that to be held against Thor since obviously hammering Fate was the right thing to do. What I find suspicious is Thor weakly took the Sotty+Copper side of the Sotty+Copper/Fate issue and kept weakly reiterating that point, but only voted Fate at the very last minute. It just looks like distancing.

I further don't like how Pie is defending himself by saying his Posts:Scummy Posts ratio is good. That's like proving something with statistics, you can make that say whatever you want, plus it's not compared to anyone else's ratio, and plus that's BS anyway since that's not how mafia works anyway. You don't lynch whoever has the greatest quantity of scummy posts, else you just lynch the weakest player each day, not scum.

Massclaim, I'm for it.

I agree with Copper that Thor's "you wouldn't be worried" comment was just a way to dance around a pretty serious question, scummy. Thor's explanation is basically saying that he didn't want to answer the question.

In the back and forth between Kerrigan and Thor, I think that Kerrigan's points are more valid, and a lot of Thor's reasons look pretty shaky, like "I'm not confident one way or another" which is basically an excuse to just go with the flow and fit in, not hunt scum. And also his reasons for stopping pressuring Fate is just confirming my thinking he is scum.

[charter]

@charter

If you think my answer to SK's question was dancing around it because I didn't want to answer it, do you then feel her question was definitely phrased in an open and normal way? I have explained why I answered the way I did and why I thought her question was more rolefishing then legitimate - specifically why do you think I'm wrong on that point?

I think it was normal. I was just caught by a tracker as scum in a recent game and I believe what Kerrigan said is essentially the same thing. Granted the tracker wasn't blocked, but they didn't just outright claim they tracked me to the NK, they left it wide open like Kerrigan did. Before he even said he tracked me, he had me fakeclaiming trying to save myself. My claim wasn't very good and was (along with being tracked) the main reason I was lynched.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13353

@Pie, fair enough, but I listed a few reasons I was suspicious of you and not the people you replaced.

[charter]

Let me ask you this, if SK had asked you the same question as she asked me, and you did not wish to roleclaim to her, how would you have answered in a protown way? If the only way to answer in a protown way is to roleclaim, then why is that?

If I was tracked I'd claim. It would confirm that person is a tracker, would possibly confirm myself as well. I'm not really seeing why not claiming who you targeted (if anyone) is going to help your case.

From my read on Kerrigan, his claim is the most suspicious thing about him, and now getting blocked, he looks even worse, but I got protown vibes from Ray and Kerrigan doesn't look like a likely buddy with Fate.

I don't really see what more there is to get from debating your comment. The discussion about it is overwhelming everything else. I think it was suspect, but not enough for me to change my vote to you or anything. I don't think you're going to convince me that how you responded was in any way townish. I don't think you're going to convince Copper or anyone else of that either.

[charter]

Pie, did you ever comment on whether you think it's suspicious of Thor how Fate was his top suspect but he didn't vote him or do anything with that until right before deadline?

About the only thing I got from all these megaposts was reading Pie's little defending Thor thing, and then Kerrigan had a quote where you stated your objections to the Thor suspicions and the main reason I'm suspicious of Thor (above) you didn't say anything about.

[charter]

Pie, did you ever comment on whether you think it's suspicious of Thor how Fate was his top suspect but he didn't vote him or do anything with that until right before deadline? You said why you disagreed with other reasons for which Thor was suspected, but I didn't see this. That's the reason I was suspicious of him at the start of the day.

Thor claiming he's vanilla is just the icing on the cake for his shenanigans at the start of the day.

I don't like how Pie is standing on the crutch of "I was tracked going no where night one". He can argue that day and night and still be scum.

I further don't like how Pie is arguing that Kerrigan can't have cleared Michel, since if Kerrigan is town, he would have cleared Michel. And if Kerrigan is scum, he'd be saying the same exact thing. So it just looks like smoke blowing.

I'm vanilla. I think Copper is the last, right?

[charter]

Well if I did it as scum then clearly that's what I thought the town thing to do would be.

[charter]

Well if he has something useful to claim, there's a good chance he's going to get NK'ed tonight. I guess leave it up to him though.

Thor, the town motivation for being vague like Kerrigan was is what I showed you in that other game. The tracker caught me without revealing what he did. The scum motivation for rolefishing back is to make sure he had a successful tracking of you which leaves your claim wide open to change later.

Cyberbob's vote is interesting, but I put more stock in a Pie/Thor team than Kerrigan/Michel team.

[charter]

Yeah, very happy with my Pie vote. I keep asking him to comment on why people (at least myself) are suspicious of Thor and he comes back with some OMGUS.

[charter]

Ok, after reading Kerrigan's rebuttal to Cyberbob's case, I must say, his case is really poor. Particularly Kerrigan's point about him or Michel is likely to be town just so the setup is balanced. It kind of negates the scummatude of his shoddy claim.

I dunno, Cyberbob's argument just doesn't seem very good when the other side is presented. I had Cyberbob as town after his reread since it seemed to be a clone of what I was thinking, but Copper brings up a good point about how Cyberbob is now drifting away from a Pie lynch when deadline is coming and Pie looks like the likely lynch candidate. Cyberbob just ignoring Kerrigan's responses is ultra scummy.

[charter]

Really nothing else to say, just waiting for a hammer.

[charter]

@charter - no desire to hear from Socrates first?

Going and checking his posts, I see he doesn't have anything substantial from today which I think is pretty inexcusable. Either get interest in the game or replace out Socrates. I didn't realize his lack of posting was this severe. So yeah, I do want to hear from him and whether he agrees with a Pie lynch or not and who he's most suspicious of and why.

[charter]

Here's an interesting proposition: SK is lying about being roleblocked. I mean how convenient can you get? Falseclaim Tracker with a persistent roleblocker on your tail and you don't have to worry about who you claim to have targeted because you're "guaranteed" not to get a result.

Yeah, this is what I'm thinking right now. I was just in a game where scum had an investigative role, and claimed their results day two (though she had something better than 'didn't go anywhere' to claim), and then 'was roleblocked' the rest of the nights. Cruised to victory.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

Had Kerrigan not claimed until now, and claimed a no result, block, block, I'd be lynching him no questions asked. Claiming like that in LYLO is just an appeal to the town hoping they have a subconscious aversion to lynching power roles.

I'm trying to do these hypothetical setups in my head. Michel definitely needs to claim today so we have the final piece of the puzzle.

Kerrigan's claim is overshadowing a lot of other people's scumminess in my head right now. I want to reread Kerrigan's stances on Fate and look for some scumbuddy connections.

Cyberbob, who do you think Kerrigan's partner is?
Thor, who are you most suspicious of?

[charter]

What about yourself, who are your top suspects?

Pending a reread, Kerrigan, then you, then Cyberbob.

[charter]

Yeah, there's six alive, probably two scum. Need to lynch right today.

[charter]

I'm trying to do these hypothetical setups in my head. Michel definitely needs to claim today so we have the final piece of the puzzle.

I still believe that the information gained by the town from me claiming at this time is not enough to outweigh the significant disadvantages of me claiming.

Well, I don't. If we don't lynch correctly today then it's game over and your role provides no information, so you need to claim today.

I'm Charter, I don't think Chamber is in this game...

I'm rereading right now, but the site is giving me lip.

[charter]

Alright, what I found in my reread.

Kerrigan comes in and doesn't say much. He has a fairly long back and forth with Pie about the in's and out's of massclaiming, mostly it looks like he's trying to argue with Pie.

877 is very interesting. Thor brings up the possibility of a roleblocker. Maybe Kerrigan ran with this when he was run up to a claim.

Judging by Cyberbob's thoughts after replacing in and how they meshed very similarly with mine and how as soon as Cyberbob votes Fate and Fate immediately OMGUSes him, I am pretty certain Cyberbob isn't scum with Fate.

Actually, Kerrigan really does very little scumhunting and seems to claim before it was really warranted. I am pretty sure that he was in zero danger of actually being lynched looking at 964 which is right after he claimed, now that I go back and look. I wasn't going to vote him, Michel wasn't, Copper wasn't, Socrates said he would only to prevent a no lynch.

Rereading day two, Kerrigan was voted because he was just doing back and forths with people. He didn't really look for scum, he looked like he was just posting to post. Then his claim.

As far as who is his buddy, I've ruled out Cyberbob. Thor actually looks like a pretty implausible Kerrigan buddy after rereading as well. I was about tied between whether it was Michel or Socrates. There were things that pointed towards both of them.

This ended up taking hours since I wasn't doing it straight through, so I'll elaborate more tomorrow.

[charter]

What's your big deal about wanting Michel to claim? Theoretically if he had information to help us he would claim that info in lylo, and unless you think he's scum there's not much point to barking up that tree. Are you advancing a Michelscum theory? He wasn't on your previous top suspects.

If there's three scum, then today is Lylo. Michel wasn't one of my suspects, but now I'm finding myself suspecting him because I've ruled out everyone else.

[charter]

If you're going with Michelscum as a possibility then doesn't the rest of the scum team pretty much have to be SK, as otherwise I can't figure out why Michel would have led the charge on Fate Day 2.

Michel most definitely didn't lead any charge against Fate day two. He is always talking about Pie and barely mentions Fate until after Kerrigan's claim where he says

I would prefer not to lynch SK today. I'm willing to switch to Fate to guarantee a deadline lynch, but I'm not a fan of that. I still believe Pie is the best lynch for today.

The he switches to Fate pretty much to save Kerrigan.

If the scum team is Michel/SK then it suggests that either we only had one PR (or that 1-3 of us who claimed vanilla all lied) which doesn't seem likely. Thoughts?

I've been in a game where I was the sole power role as town and it was much worse than a gunsmith (3 scum, 9 town). So a one power role game is certainly possible.

Charter, you didn't elaborate on your reads on Thor and Cyberbob, unless you ruling them out as my scumbuddies is doing that?

Yeah. I think they're both probably town since I'm going with you as scum and I don't think either of them is likely to be your buddy. I don't see Cyberbob as being Fate's scumbuddy either, though I can see Thor as Fate's buddy for reasons mentioned previously.

Ok, I didn't realize that Copper was pro Kerrigan lynch before your claim and then switched after you claimed. I was looking at the votecount right after you claimed since it was right there, and Copper had a post where he said something like 'I'm not in favor of a Kerrigan lynch' or something similar. So I suppose you were in danger of being lynched, though the fact that you claimed when you thought you could be lynched really has nothing to do with why I suspect you. Odd that it's the thing you spend the most time defending.

What things point towards Michel or Socrates as scumbuddies with me and Fate?

I will be elaborating on this later tonight.

Hmm, something's worrying me about you, Charter. You claimed you had town vibes from RayFrost on Day 1-2, and you stated no real opinion of me other than on my claim on Day 2. On Day 3 you took my side of the SK-Thor debate, said I wasn't likely a scumbuddy with Fate, and called Cyberbob's case against me crappy.

Of like the five Rayfrost posts I read, one had legit scumhunting, which is something I'm not sure I've seen from him before, so I wrote him off as town based on that. I thought yesterday that scum was Pie and Thor, but that's obviously not true, so I had to go back and reevaluate. I'm not going to keep going 'Thor is scum, look at Pie!'. Cyberbob's case against you was crappy, but that doesn't mean you're not scum.

It's like I've been kept alive because I thought you were town, but now that I'm changing that, you all of a sudden don't like me any more. Now you're trying to tell me I'm supposed to be suspicious of Thor because I was before. Like Pie being town is supposed to have no bearing on my thoughts.

The possibility that I'm fakeclaiming scum is the only reason I'm more suspicious than everyone else?

I'm saying your claim is so unbelievably convenient that I don't believe it. Had you claimed vanilla, you would have been lynched and we wouldn't be having this debate, but your claim of Tracker saved you (and I think that's the sole reason you're still alive). Generally when someone claims a power role and they don't get NK'ed, guess what. They're scum.

[charter]

Well, your vote on me is just OMGUS. I said some things that you didn't like because they involved you being scum and you just spin that in to charter must be scum. It's laughable.

Changing stories to fit your need, eh? The last sentence of the second quote is interesting, too.

Changing my mind as you keep living through the night.

So if I'm so positively scum that you're ruling people town because they aren't likely my buddies, then why don't I have your vote, yet? This is a major scumtell, in my opinion.

How is not voting immediately in LYLO scummy? If you're accusing me of "major scumtells" that aren't obvious (or in this case made up) you generally explain why it's scummy.

Sorry, but I don't buy this. If one single scumhunting post makes RayFrost town, all the things you said in favor of me yesterday should damn well make me town.

You're not Rayfrost. I don't write off everyone who makes one good post.

Yeah, but your reevaluation came back with a new top suspect and a pardoning for someone you thought was scum yesterday not because of anything new he'd posted, but because he couldn't be partners with your top suspect. In order for that to work, you need damn good evidence that your new suspect is scum.

Ok, I already explained how Pie not being scum changed my thinking. Pie not being scum means that if Thor is, there's another scum out there. I don't see who that would be, so I rule Thor out.

You also called Cyberbob "ultra scummy" for not answering my rebuttal. Yesterday you have him scummier than me, and today you've pardoned him because he can't be my partner? Again, you need a damn good reason to call me scum.

Your claim.
How you spent most of day two arguing with people but not scumhunting.


Once again, your vote on me is laughable. I say I think you're scum and then YOU contradict a lot of what you've said to call me scum. The double standard you're applying here is ridiculous.

Basically you've OMGUSed Pie, then Cyberbob, now me. You claimed Tracker when pressured and you're not dying at night. Scum.

[charter]

I'm going to be out of town until sunday night or monday.

[charter]

Ok, finally able to catch up. I'm not responding to any of Kerrigan's WIFOM defenses or 'no u' quotes, since they are just weak and don't accomplish anything, in an effort to minimize clutter.

If a townie think someone is scum, the townie votes them, regardless of the scenario. Scum, on the other hand, have a tendency to hang back, to wait and see what the town thinks about their lynch candidate before casting a vote.

Well, aside from townies vote people they think are scum regardless of scenario not being correct, this is really hypocritical since you didn't vote for so long after you replaced in. So, regardless of scenario (you replacing in) you never voted until less than 24 hours before deadline even though you had suspects at the time!

Then you aren't applying your standard of scumhunting equally to everyone.

Yes, I'm not. And your point is?

Why not Cyberbob? He was one of your suspects, wasn't he? If not that, why not SPS, or Michel? Even if I'm your top suspect, there's no reason not to push your other suspects, which you haven't even tried to do so far.

Cyberbob for the same reason as Thor. SPS because I don't think he's a buddy with Fate. I am suspicious of Michel, but that case is almost the same as yours, the claim.

The first part was dealt with in Post #1271 (which you have not bothered replying to)

Hmm, I must have deleted it, but I said that I was mistaken with my thinking of who was suspicious of you at the time. I had looked at the votecount right after you claimed and then Copper's post after where he had changed his mind.

This is a valid point SK has raised and I'd like to hear your reasoning for this shift.

I've explained this like three times. Yesterday, I thought Pie was scum and Cyberbob looked like a juicy choice for his buddy. With Pie not being scum, that was a huge blow to my thinking Cyberbob was scum. Cyberbob's case was bad, his handling of Kerrigan's response was scummy, but if I can't find a scumteam that includes Cyberbob, then I'm not going to keep attacking Cyberbob.

Both are aspects of scum opportunism

Yes, tunneling early and hard is a classic example of A) scum behavior and B) opportunistic play for scum. No, this isn't true at all.

I've finished ISOing people and I'm currently leaning towards a Thor-charter scum team with SK-Cyberbob and Thor-SK as close second and third respectively.

Why do you think I'm scum? Why do you think I'm scum with Thor?

It may be worth noting that I consider Gunsmith + my role vs 3 vanilla goons unlikely.

It's entirely possible Kerrigan is a tracker, but I don't see how he's a town tracker.

[charter]

Thor, you're falling in to the setup speculation trap which almost always burns the town. You don't even know what Michel claims his role is. What if only one person of the mafia can make kills? What if the mafia has lovers or something or is crippled in some way. You're assuming three goons, but you don't know if that's the case or what.

If by this you mean the second section of my Post #1273, I would like to ask how my presenting the chain of events in a town light is considered WIFOM while you presenting those same chain of events in a scum light is not.

You're asking me why scum is acting how they are. If you don't see how that's WIFOM, then I can't help you. The WIFOM is you asking me what I think scum would do.

Show me examples where a townie is strongly convinced that someone is scum and yet doesn't vote for them. As for the alleged "hypocrisy," I didn't vote for any of my suspects for a good while because I was not sure enough that any of my suspects were scum. Your case is different. Your belief that I'm scum is strong enough that you've cleared your previous suspects because you don't think they're scum with me. If I'm that scummy in your eyes, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be voting me.

Any game in LYLO you will have townies not voting.

So you think Gunsmith + Michel's role vs 2 goons + scum Tracker is plausible?

Well, without knowing MIchel's role, it's hard to say, but I don't think MIchel can be town, but I do think a gunsmith can be the only town power role.

[charter]

So if it's WIFOM for me to speculate why scum would behave as they have with me as town, why isn't it WIFOM for you to speculate why scum would behave as they have with me as scum?

What the hell are you talking about? If you're scum then there's no WIFOM, what's happening is happening because you're scum. There's no option of guessing what scum would do. If you're scum, then obviously you're going to live through the night.

Do you have examples of townies that are utterly convinced that someone is scum and still withhold their vote?

I'm sure I've seen it, but I'm not going to go looking through games to find examples. How the hell can it be scummy to be not voting? It's really obvious I think you're scum, so if I all of a sudden change and vote Cyberbob, then that's going to be scummy. Whether I was voting you before or not. That's basically what you did, after I said I was suspicious of you.

Does this mean you don't think Michel is town? If so, why haven't you been pressuring him?

Because no one is interested in lynching him. This game is already a drain, I don't have the time/energy to reread and make another case when his fate is tied in with yours.

@charter
@Cyberbob

How does your SK = scum case justify Fate's pressure on the SK wagon Day 2?

Here's where he hopped on

Third person on the bus. No real pressure on himself yet. Actually has to re-clarify himself that he didn't mean Pie but rather SK on some earlier stated suspicions.

It was a really weak vote. If you notice how much he pushed SK before he claimed when he was a viable target versus how much he pushed SK after when he wasn't a viable target, the difference is quite profound. In that post he even listed three people he'd be willing to lynch, so it's not like he didn't leave his options wide open. To me it just looks like a really crappy bus attempt.

[charter]

What the hell are you talking about? If you're scum then there's no WIFOM, what's happening is happening because you're scum. There's no option of guessing what scum would do. If you're scum, then obviously you're going to live through the night.

This is getting jumbled up. Let me try to explain my point another way: How does my claim and it's associated actions make me scum?

Why aren't you voting me?

I actually meant to in my last post.

Vote Kerrigan

[charter]

How does my claim and it's associated actions make me scum?

I've already said. It's too convenient. You claimed to save yourself, and of course vanilla isn't going to do that. So you claimed tracker. But you tracked someone who claimed vanilla day one, so you knew it was a safe thing to claim. Then day two you claim roleblocked that way you don't have to guess at anyone's role. Then obviously you have to keep playing the roleblocked card.

I've literally never seen a claim this convenient come from a townie, ever.

EBWOP: Why didn't you vote me earlier?

I didn't feel like it.

[charter]

Ok, this is getting absurd now. Obviously it

can

be true from a town perspective, that'd be a pretty shitty claim if it wasn't. You're just not town is all.

Obviously I don't have proof of my assumptions, THAT'S WHY THEY'RE CALLED ASSUMPTIONS.

I DID NOT FEEL LIKE VOTING.


Ok, Thor, SPS. Please look at this utterly crap case Kerrigan is pushing on me. His points are total garbage. None of any of this even happened until I said I was suspicious of him, then he conjures up a case out of thin air. It's really obvious that his case is bullshit.

[charter]

@SK: is charters sudden switch to you the only reason that you believe he is scum? Do you encompass previous days in your reads in any way?

I have not gone back to look at the previous days, no. However, I consider the evidence I have presented so far strong enough to confidently vote for him.

Lol, so the entire case against me is OMGUS, like I've been saying.

Thor, can you give me a summary why you think I'm one of the two scummiest players?

[charter]

Been out of town again, I'm gonna catch up tonight or tomorrow.

[charter]

Thor, can you give me a summary why you think I'm one of the two scummiest players?

More a process of elimination but here goes;

Michel's shift to get Fate lynched nets him solid town points, only possible reason I see for him to be scum is if Kerrigan is scum - hence Kerrigan is scummier and needs to be lynched first of that possible pairing.

Shovel is cleared for CSL and Fate attempts to wagon TCC and Socrates respectively.

Cyberbob/Zorblag/Cyberbob had a lot of good conversation points and suspected Fate early on. I agree with the Shovel's pointed out note where Cyberbob called out Fate as scummy early on. If he's scum he's not likely to be paired with Kerrigan, so the only partner I see for him is charter with whom he's sharing some solid buddying antics. That makes charter the first to lynch of this possible pair.

You (charter) have the joining with Fate push on Copper and a lot of vote appearances on wagons I feel are suspect as well as some questionable lurking. You now have solid buddying with Cyberbob and a strong push on a claimed PR after some mental acrobatics to clear me (I still haven't re-read Day 3 to assess those acrobatics or to re-read Pie's scum claim on you).

You think that both me and Cyberbob bussed Fate? Why? If we were both scum, why wouldn't we have just lynched Kerrigan day two? It makes no sense for me and Cyberbob to be scumbuddies.

Kerrigan bickering with Thor about absolutely nothing, I guess he's just trying to pad his imaginary case against me and swindle SPS to voting me.

Eh - I'm basing this on myself outguessing the mod, buying into Pie's case, and generally feeling that you have certainly had a bit of attack dog tendency around a few of the potential lynches this game.

This is the worst vote I've ever seen. Obvious reasons, outguessing the mod rarely works. Buying into Pie's case, who you lynched because you thought he was so scummy, and I voted for some townies.

SPS, I hope you at least have some sense. Kerrigan's voting me for OMGUS, Thor has just plain lost his mind, and Michel has you all fooled. You've even said yourself that I don't make the most sense in your pairings. At least no lynch rather than blow the game by lynching me.

[charter]

Arghhkjhjdh

SPS, you should have no lynched instead of lynching me! We would have lynched Kerrigan the next day and outright won. We knew Michel was a PGO!

Good game everyone. I thought town was ultra screwed because of all the lurking/replacements.

[charter]

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking saying Kerrigan was scum day four. I think I reread and you were just ridiculously scummy, so I tried pushing that. That was dumb, should have just gone for Cyberbob.