mini 958: Just Another Mafia Problem - GAME OVER!

[hasdgfas]

/cownfirm

/waves at Elias
Welcome back

[hasdgfas]

vote: rover9000

Not random.

[hasdgfas]

vote: shattered viewpoint

like hascows vote, this vote is not random. on that note, whyd you vote rover, hasgfasdsdgsa?

I don't like him voting no lynch on D1, even in RVS. Why Shattered Viewpoint?

Also, Shotty, I don't understand how you're following SSK with that vote. Explain?

[hasdgfas]

vote: shattered viewpoint

like hascows vote, this vote is not random. on that note, whyd you vote rover, hasgfasdsdgsa?

I don't like him voting no lynch on D1, even in RVS. Why Shattered Viewpoint?

Also, Shotty, I don't understand how you're following SSK with that vote. Explain?

I took my vote off him because of post 32. It has nothing to do with where my new vote went.

fair enough. Would've been easier to understand with a quote around what you were responding to.

[hasdgfas]

[offtopic] That Gunnkerig Court hasdgfas? [/offtopic]

dunno. Another scummer suggested this to me.

SV, Shotty:

cut it out or get out. I'm not going to deal with this after a long hiatus from mafia. This was

why

I stopped.

unvote, vote Shotty
FoS ShatteredViewpoint

for the fun of the game.

[hasdgfas]

I think we should advance to the next stage, the Random Question Stage. I'll ask some questions:

1. What previous experience do you have with Mafia games?
2. How would you describe your playstyle?
3. What would you consider your best Mafia game and your worst?
4. Do you prefer Random Question Stage or Random Voting Stage and why?
5. If we've gather no more information toDay and you were the deciding vote, who would you vote based off of what we have?
6. What time zone are you and when do you post?
7. Do you get nervous before posting?

NO. We are not treating the game like a routine. Why do you feel this is necessary?

[hasdgfas]

Hasdfas, I can understand your objection to running the game like a routine, but is there any reason you can't answer the questions? I mean, it starts people talking, no matter what you call it.

There is no reason I can't answer the questions, but talking for the sake of talking is not useful at all. I will answer them in my next post after I answer some other things.

@has: If you can't deal with a few feathers ruffling between two other players I'm sorry, but it's not my problem.

feathers ruffling I'm ok with. That was a straight-up insult fest. Totally different.

Not random.

1. What is your reasoning
2. Why did you not give it to begin with
3. What do you stand to gain from not giving reasoning aside from obscuring your motivation for voting someone and keeping from sparking discussion?

1) I gave it earlier. I don't like him voting No Lynch, even in "RVS".
2) I wanted to see the reactions to a "not random" vote when most people are expecting RVS,
3) I was planning to give it, I just wanted to see reactions.

getting to those questions now

[hasdgfas]

I think we should advance to the next stage, the Random Question Stage. I'll ask some questions:

1. What previous experience do you have with Mafia games?
2. How would you describe your playstyle?
3. What would you consider your best Mafia game and your worst?
4. Do you prefer Random Question Stage or Random Voting Stage and why?
5. If we've gather no more information toDay and you were the deciding vote, who would you vote based off of what we have?
6. What time zone are you and when do you post?
7. Do you get nervous before posting?

1) I've been playing quite a bit on my floor this semester, and, as you can see by join date, I have a couple years of experience on this site.
2) Depends on the game.
3) Best was probably the first Mini Normal I was in. Can't remember the number or anything as it was over two years ago, but Rishi modded and I was scum with Elias. Neither of us got a "real" vote for the entire game. Worst was Medieval. I was never caught up with the game and claimed my real role as scum, lurked through the whole game, it was a disaster.
4) I hate both, especially as I've never heard of Random Question Stage before. Did you make it up? If not, where did you get it from?
5) Look at where I'm voting and why.
6) Eastern. I post when I have something to say.
7) Nope.

Now let me ask you a couple non-random questions.
Why are you breaking the game down into stages? It is, as JD says, a dynamic game with changing situations and breaking it into stages is just a bad idea.
Why do you feel that "RQS" is useful at all? Sure, they answer questions and talk, but as I said, that's useless if it doesn't bring the game forward. Why do these questions move the game forward?
What games have you finished on-site?

[hasdgfas]

3) I was planning to give it, I just wanted to see reactions.

What reactions did you see, and why was this important to your methodology?

I saw you calling me out and I saw Elias and socrates wondering why I voted. It's important to how I'm playing because I want to see how people react to things. I really wanted to wait for rover, but I sensed tension from more than just you regarding that vote, and I figured "wait for rover" wouldn't have worked at that point.

Basically, I find it useful to place a vote like that very early in the game to get us discussing things early and so I can see reactions and gauge why they react that way.

[hasdgfas]

So was there any real reason beyond 'gauging reactions' or was that it?

I have said this twice now, please read. I don't like people voting for no lynch, even in "RVS"

Right now I do have some thoughts, but thoughts on that right now is useless, IMO. I need more gameplay to work from. It's part of a whole, those reactions.

[hasdgfas]

3) I was planning to give it, I just wanted to see reactions.

What reactions did you see, and why was this important to your methodology?

I saw you calling me out and I saw Elias and socrates wondering why I voted. It's important to how I'm playing because I want to see how people react to things. I really wanted to wait for rover, but I sensed tension from more than just you regarding that vote, and I figured "wait for rover" wouldn't have worked at that point.

So your motivation for revealing it when you did was that you were worried it would bring heat upon you, right? (Note: This is in and of itself not an incriminating question; self-preservation isn't just a scum thing tbh).

That's what it boils down to. There's a slightly longer, more convoluted explanation, but yeah.

Just like being a felon doesn't ruin your chances on most job applications amirite?

I don't like this. Feels like you're trying to discredit JDodge and make me more suspicious of his motivations. Why ask this question? Especially in this way?

So, Elias and Cow, what is the delineation you make between rover's and Shattered's initial votes that you vote for one and not the other? Both are useless and form no connection with another player.

One is actually voteable and will hurt the town. One is unvoteable. There's really not much of a difference though, I agree. I'm just slightly less anti-mod vote. Comes from having played a Mind Screw game, I think.

Now let me ask you a couple non-random questions.
Why are you breaking the game down into stages? It is, as JD says, a dynamic game with changing situations and breaking it into stages is just a bad idea.

It helps me think better. I know that if I need to look at evidence, I'll be able to look at these questions and the random posts and they could possibly help us later on.

Have you used this strategy before in a completed game? If so, link please.

Why do you feel that "RQS" is useful at all? Sure, they answer questions and talk, but as I said, that's useless if it doesn't bring the game forward. Why do these questions move the game forward?

I look at the way people reacts to the question and how much efforts they put into it. Therefore, it can be useful for starting leads on other people. Not only that, it allows less oppertunities for a mislynch to happen later on in the game.

Please explain this more. I still don't understand how you couldn't just do this by asking questions without calling it a "stage" or why you couldn't just do this as a first post instead of RVS.

[hasdgfas]

Missed this before:

Now let me ask you a couple non-random questions.
Why are you breaking the game down into stages? It is, as JD says, a dynamic game with changing situations and breaking it into stages is just a bad idea.
Why do you feel that "RQS" is useful at all? Sure, they answer questions and talk, but as I said, that's useless if it doesn't bring the game forward. Why do these questions move the game forward?
What games have you finished on-site?

I assume these are open for anyone to answer.

As far as "stages" go, yes I agree that the game is dynamic, but anything can be broken down into observable stages without necessarily affecting (or inflicting upon, as it were) the structure of the observed phenomenon. The trick here is delineating where and when that stage-shift occurs.

It wasn't actually open for anyone, as it was directed at him, but why do you think that breaking it down into stages helps anything? What does saying "Here's RVS and here's RQS" do at all?

[hasdgfas]

Oh, and for purpose of clarification hasdgfas, you say in response to SSBF's questions look where my vote is and why. But your vote is on shotty, and the post in which you vote is for the most part a vague point that you left the site because of arguing in games. So...are you voting for shotty because he was part of that argument, and fos'ing shattered for the same reason? and if so, why did shotty deserve the vote and shattered deserve the fos?

not arguing, trading of insults. I'm voting for Shotty and FoSing shattered because Shotty started the insult train. Based on things that had happened to the point where I responded, I felt that was the best place for my vote if the day were to end there.

That's what it boils down to. There's a slightly longer, more convoluted explanation, but yeah.

I'm not afraid of words. I'd like to see the longer explanation.

Let's see if I can put this the way that I want to....

I wanted to wait for rover to respond before I said anything, but I figured that the only difference between revealing was how many people got angry and/or frustrated that I didn't explain and the number of posts I made without explain. If I kept not explaining, that leads to a lot of heat for something that really doesn't deserve it.

I don't see anything to respond to.

Of course you don't, you're scum and you don't need the attention.

Why is this the only thing you respond to?

@has: that's the way I post. just because I have a differing opinion and like to express it sarcastically doesn't mean I'm trying to undermine him.

Sure seems like it when that's the only thing you say and you don't explain any further.

[hasdgfas]

Please explain this more. I still don't understand how you couldn't just do this by asking questions without calling it a "stage" or why you couldn't just do this as a first post instead of RVS.

These were the first questions I've asked in the game, so I decided to call it a stage and see how people respond to it.

I was also considering accompandy it with the RVS vote, but I forgot. Then I remember and that's why I called it a stage.

Of course that already has ended, so should we go on from here? Or do you need more explination?

Oh, it's ended, has it? What if I say I want to keep talking about it, and why is that different from your response of "I can go back and look at the answers to make judgements on people"?

[hasdgfas]

@rover9000:

FoMS (Finger of Minor Suspicion): rover9000

Do not put anyone at L-2 this early. We have over two weeks of discussion left, doing so this early is dangerous. Some uninformed player could accidently lynch Super Mega Awesome Pimp! right now.

I'm not going to risk this, so I'll

Unvote

.

I really don't like the "we have X amount of time, let's not lynch" argument. If we're ready to lynch someone, we lynch them. I don't like waffling when the town has decided on something.

@hasdgfas:

Oh, it's ended, has it? What if I say I want to keep talking about it, and why is that different from your response of "I can go back and look at the answers to make judgements on people"?

Personally, if you were to keep talking about RVS/RQS when we've already gotten into serious discussion, I would probably find your suspicious.

See, this I have a problem with. Am I not allowed to have serious discussion about things that have happened? Who cares whether it's regarding early game if it's serious?

@Rover: have you used no lynch as a reaction test before? If so, link please. Otherwise, could you explain why you chose to in this game?

[hasdgfas]

wow, my post last night totally didn't go through. dang it. that changes things.

Here's the gist of my post that didn't go through:
SSBF's 155 is a lot of fluff with very little substance. Nearly all of it was things that had been commented on and it attempted to look helpful while just taking us backwards in the game. It was also a vote for him. I'm going to catch up before deciding whether that still fits.

-----------------------------------------------------------
SSK is misrepping me in his analysis. I never said I had thoughts on who was scum. I said I had insights to alignment. I also said I couldn't use them without more info. Just because I have more thoughts doesn't mean I have to vote.

Tell me that was not an OMGUS vote on me.

Policy dictates that anyone denying my awesomeness must be voted. Call it OMGUS, I don't care.

You seriously need to get over yourself.

Having an ego kicks ass, try it some time.

It's also scummy. You're not better than the town. In fact, having too much of an ego, such as you, is a sign of scum, because it's a sign of arrogance. Arrogance that you can trick the town, arrogance that you're better than everyone, which just won't work as a town member, as you need people on your side.

FoS

I've been skimming this game, and for that I apologize.

Unvote.

Shattered Viewpoint looks better to me after I've fully read the thread =P.

I just saw his vote out of context.

SAMP: How long have you been playing on MS? Mafia in general?

How does this help the game at all? SAMP has a join date, you should ask him that. In addition, I'm still not sure why you feel better about Shattered Viewpoint. Why should this make me feel you're not just skimming the thread? I don''t see anything to make me feel better about you.

unvote vote: ConfidAnon

Bring more to the game please, not useless comments. There's no analysis, there's not really any sort of substance.

[hasdgfas]

@hasdgfas:

wow, my post last night totally didn't go through. dang it. that changes things.

I know this is irrelavent, but when making large posts, I suggest using a word program. Then once you get that finished, copy it to your post. Mistakes are much less common this way.

that sounds rather condescending, honestly. I've been here nearly 3 years, I know how this works. The forum ate it. I was using a word program.

Having an ego kicks ass, try it some time.

It's also scummy. You're not better than the town. In fact, having too much of an ego, such as you, is a sign of scum, because it's a sign of arrogance. Arrogance that you can trick the town, arrogance that you're better than everyone, which just won't work as a town member, as you need people on your side.

FoS

So because I voted SSBF for calling me not awesome, that indicates I don't need people on my side? WTF?

Wow, great strawman. That was not what I said at all.

It's also scummy. You're not better than the town. In fact, having too much of an ego, such as you, is a sign of scum, because it's a sign of arrogance. Arrogance that you can trick the town, arrogance that you're better than everyone, which just won't work as a town member, as you need people on your side. FoS

This IS bad. There are arrogant townies and arrogant scum members.

And why don't scum need people on their side?

There are, but it's incredibly scummy, and I do consider it a sign of scum, more of a subconscious thing that scum just feel like they're better than town.
Scum do need people on their side, but they have more reason to be arrogant, from what I've found, because they are the ones trying to trick people. While they do need to get people on their side, it's just that they have to listen to their argument. They don't necessarily have to work together the same way townies should be, if that makes any sense.

[hasdgfas]

You know what? I'm going to purposely mess with Super Mega Awesome Pimp! username up until he stops being an *******. Starting with this post.

that sounds rather condescending, honestly. I've been here nearly 3 years, I know how this works. The forum ate it. I was using a word program.

I can understand. However, before posting, I suggest copying your entire work (If you don't know how, do CTRL+C) just in case it does eat your work. If that doesn't work, then disregard the suggestion and let's get back on track.

DUDE, that was exactly what I didn't like about your last post discussing this. You're being incredibly condescending again. Please cut it out, it's incredibly rude. I'm not joking. I know how to use a computer, I'm a comp sci major, which, while it's not a be-all, end-all, means I do have some knowledge about computer-y things.

Wow, great strawman. That was not what I said at all.

Are you screwing with me? You just got done saying

exactly

that ego was scummy because it shows I don't want people on my side!

And you said that I was using SSBF not calling you awesome as my argument towards your arrogance. It wasn't, it was your entire demeanor.

I'll give everyone a cookie if the mass quote striping and bullshit arguments stop.

mass quote striping? Example of what you mean and why it's bad please?

[hasdgfas]

And you said that I was using SSBF not calling you awesome as my argument towards your arrogance. It wasn't, it was your entire demeanor.

My entire demeanor really isn't all that arrogant, in fact, my reaction to SSBF's random vote was the ONLY egotistical thing I had done at the time, so it's really the only thing you could have been talking about!

I could go through all your posts picking out the arrogance, but that's not going to help anything right now, as you're currently not my top suspect. I think it's time to defuse the situation, so I'm going to cut that line of discussion, at least from my end.

@SAMP: Tunneling is bad news bears. You can't ignore the scumminess of people who aren't your top suspect, because that makes it really easy to let scum coast by.

ConfidAnon is still not contributing anything useful to the game.

[hasdgfas]

@Elias the Theif: Very good analysis there. I do disagree at where Super Awesome Mega Pimp is, but yeah.

I also really do agree with MafiaSSK, he has not contributed much to the game.

First off, i before e, unless it's a weird word. just a pet peeve of mine, when people spell words like thief wrong.

Secondly, do you have anything to add, or are you just going to say "oh that's good" and leave it at that? If so, it's a completely useless post.

[hasdgfas]

He attacks confidanon for lack of contribution, which I can’t really argue, but this attack leads me to wonder why he doesn’t attack any of the other players who are posting but not adding much.

by "the other players who aren't adding much", could you explain who you mean, please? It's quite possible that my frustration at seeing confid's lack of content has made me overlook others who have been worse. It's also possible I feel differently about amount of content than you.

[hasdgfas]

By your requirements, what will I have to do to be deemed useful?

Has, I want you to answer this (not asking to be a smartass, but I want to improve my play, and learn from your answer.)

Analyze. I haven't seen any of that, just vaguely game-related comments. Take what people say and look into it. I've seen a lot of piggybacking off of what others say and saying things that plenty of others have brought up. Make your own content.

[hasdgfas]

@SSBF: That's a wonderful wall of words. Not! All you did was post each iso post, and restate it (sometimes not even in your own words!). Fail. But A for effort. Now, can you come up with some analysis that's not re-stating what we already know?

He did give his "read" on each post and give a little bit of analysis on them. Did you completely miss that?

[hasdgfas]

Specifically, which players do you think I have strong points about? Who would you consider voting at this point? You seem to be avoiding naming anyone specific that you find scummy, and being noncommittal is very anti-town, if not just plain scummy.

The top three on your lists have good points upon them, but the one I think deserves the most attention is rover.

In fact,

Vote: rover.

Imo, going after a lurker isn't that big of a scumtell on it's own (unless its possibly an attempt to derail another wagon, which to my knowledge isn't happening here.) Your summary of rover's play is fairly accurate, and could easily be explained by rover bing scum.

Quite honestly, this is the worst case of coattailing I have ever seen. You literally added NOTHING to Elias' case with this post, all you did was essentially say "you're right, he probably is scum".

If you're going to say that I am the one that deserves the most attention, you'd certainly better say why. Otherwise, this post is incredibly scummy.

THANK YOU. This is what I've been trying to say every since I voted him.


Also, @SSBF: Deleting posts is usually a bad idea. it might not seem like it, but it can really mess with things.

[hasdgfas]

It's exam week.

V/LA until Saturday

[hasdgfas]

I am back. Anything that anyone needs me to look at in particular?

I find it interesting how Unsight hasn't responded to Shotty's accusation at all, (he/she?) is totally ignoring it.

In addition, Buttonmen really hasn't done anything this game except for ignore arguments and vote for SSK

@SV: scumbuddy coaching? elaboration please?

[hasdgfas]

I am back. Anything that anyone needs me to look at in particular?

I find it interesting how Unsight hasn't responded to Shotty's accusation at all, she is totally ignoring it.

In addition, Buttonmen really hasn't done anything this game except for ignore arguments and vote for SSK

@SV: scumbuddy coaching? elaboration please?

One of the people I FoS in my first post says he'd like to lynch me. How would you like me to respond to that?

By explaining why he's wrong? Just because you showed suspicion of him and then he showed suspicion of you doesn't mean it's straight OMGUS. He had a reason for it.

[hasdgfas]

@hasdgfas:

What arguments do you feel I am ignoring?

not arguments, sorry, questions. I was thinking a different sentence than I was typing and they merged

[hasdgfas]

Oh shit guys. Deadline is approaching. We need to decide upon a lynch fast.

We have a deadline?

Would be nice to know in the title

[hasdgfas]

All the more reason for you to vote roverscum!

doesn't look like you're going to get the support for this. Who else do you think is scum?

[hasdgfas]

All the more reason for you to vote roverscum!

doesn't look like you're going to get the support for this. Who else do you think is scum?

I need to take a look back at buttonmen to get a feel for why he's getting voted so I can make an informed decision on him.

At this point, I would be willing to switch over to MafiaSSK for his total lurkage.

Has - why do you not support what I am saying? Am I totally off my rocker? I'm trying to learn how to play well, and feedback on my suspicions would help even if I'm totally doing this wrong.

Actually, anyone can answer that, not just Has.

I did not say I did not support what you're saying. I'm not totally against a rover lynch, actually, it's just that you're the only vote on him, and deadline is saturday. You're probably not going to get enough votes to lynch him in time. That's what I'm saying, not that I don't agree with you.

[hasdgfas]

What exactly do you mean by "this is the best place if the day were to end there"? You do realize how much that sounds like "this is what will look best for me if someone goes back to look later", right?

I meant that with how little info we had to that point, and the fact that, iirc, I was answering a question about who I would vote for if day ended there, I would have kept my vote in that place.

You seem quiet, cow. Why is that?

I seem to post in waves without realizing it. I'll make a lot of posts in a day or two, then not post for a while, or I'll post in one game and think I've posted in all my games. I'm trying to get better at that, but I get quiet at times. I try not to lurk, but I'm not zwet.

Can you enlighten me on the difference?

One is figuring out who you think is scum, one includes thinking who is town(which was the insights I had, and I don't like just blurting out who I think is town)

Can you clarify exactly what your point was? I'm confused.

SAMP said he liked having an ego, I called it scummy because he's being arrogant, which I find to be a sign of scum who think they're better than the town because they're tricking them instead of trying to work with them.

He said "So because I voted SSBF for calling me not awesome, that indicates I don't need people on my side? WTF?"

Which is strawmanning me, as the main point wasn't that he didn't need people on his side, it was that being arrogant is bad for the town.

Now I would REALLY like a summary of TBM case. However, the fact that he still hasn't done any serious analysis whatsoever in the game. Along witht he fact that he has a L3 wagon on him that he could analyze.

Unvote

Call this a L2 warning

Summaries are biased. Figure it out yourself. Oh, look, a reason you're thinking about voting him. Why need a case summary?

[hasdgfas]

an you each give me reasons that ConfidAnon is scummier than TheButtonmen?

he's trying to look like he's contributing. Buttonmen just doesn't seem to care.

[hasdgfas]

@SSBF:

Calling whoever replaces MSSK scum is scummy. MSSK didn't do anything to make you think that slot was scum (he lurks / gets replaced equally as town and scum) all your doing is making a bullshit reason to go after that slot tommorow.

I was just coming in to say that. SSK hasn't done

anything

, let alone anything scummy. I'm going to see how the replacement plays before passing judgement on the slot.

[hasdgfas]

vote: Super Smash Bros. Fan
FoS: ConfidAnon

When I did some rereading during night, I realized that SSBF was actively being scummy, while ConfidAnon was just not contributing that much. Now, at the start of the day, he FoSes Confid(I always find early day FoSes scummy, because they're useless) AND he uses the fact the Buttonmen was a Doctor as part of the reason. Did YOU know that he was a Doctor before he was lynched, SSBF?

[hasdgfas]

I want Cow to further flesh out his case on SSBF to see if that extremely good reasoning is there. Quite frankly, I expect more out of you and I'm disappointed by how little you actually seem to be contributing. On another note, why exactly are early day FoSes "useless"? How is expressing a suspicion an anti-town action?

I've been out of games entirely for a few months now, JD. This is my first one back since then. I can't get fully back up to speed in my first game back. I'd like to contribute more as well, but I still feel like I'm 2 steps behind. I'm getting on an SSBF case as well, actually. Just threw out the base to start with
Re FoSes: I think FoSes in general are fine, but in your first post of the day, a FoS instead of a vote reads, to me, "I'm showing suspicion, but not voting. This means I can go with popular opinion instead of actually having my own". That's my problem with what he's doing. Especially since he only would have been the

2nd

vote. It's not like him voting would have put him at L-1.

[hasdgfas]

vote: SSBF

nice try, but no.

[hasdgfas]

Too much town poor play there. Myself included. Not really a great game at all, honestly, too much lurking.

[hasdgfas]

I don't think most of the mafia was under much suspicion though, so wp to them for staying UTR

[hasdgfas]

Too much town poor play there. Myself included. Not really a great game at all, honestly, too much lurking.

I blame you, Tim. You've lost your edge!

you KNOW this is my first game after being gone for 4 months+
Don't even try putting it all on me.