Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Cyberbob]

Welp, looks like I have a bit of reading to do.

[Cyberbob]

Just chiming in to say that I am in fact working my way through, it's slow going on account of my internet being shaped to dialup speeds (Australian internet ) until midnight tonight but I've made it up to the end of Day 1.

Some points:

- The discussion about Ythan's posting habits near the start is pretty dumb.
- Scrambles' vote for Ythan based on the above argument is pretty terrible. If I was around I probably would have voted him for this.
- Thor backs up his Scrambles vote well, I particularly like that he knows the difference between an ad hom and a personal attack (this is unrelated to mafia, I just hate it when people confuse the two).
- I sure do wish people would stop talking about age.
- First impression of CheshireCat: useless.
- Copper knows what's up in Post 142. I still don't think his vote for Ythan is warranted though.
- Agree with Inquisitor's criticism of Scrambles. Also glad to see that Copper's Ythan vote was not actually a "serious" one.
- Disagree entirely with Ythan's attack on Inquisitor.
- RayFrost is being incredibly obtuse in Post 187.
- Scrambles is also being rather (read: very) useless.
- Thor and Copper are definitely the two players contributing the most, kind of getting vibes of a connection there though?
- CheshireCat makes a big comeback from her rather long hiatus!!!.... and offers absolutely nothing beyond a bit of metachat.
- Agreeing with most of the criticism directed at Ray, it's always scummy not to contribute no matter what your meta is (and if your new town meta is to not contribute then you should find something else).
- Nobody Special is another hit-and-runner.
- I agree with Thor about Ythan to an extent but the Thor/Copper connection is so obvious it hurts at this point. I understand that sometimes the objectively good thing to do is agree with someone but there is agreement... and then there's agreement.
- Kind of agree with Sotty re: Cheshire's smileys, I don't think she's intentionally trying to pull any manipulation with them but they are very annoying.
- Scrambles on Page 11 is pretty lol. I'd probably be voting him at this point, with suspicion also pointed at Cheshire and Ray. Also Nothing Special, but I think the previous three I named are better lynch candidates at this point.
- Nothing Special's Post 316 is hilariously over the top.
- And there he goes in 328.
- I do like my predecessor's big comeback post (354), he and I seem to mostly be aligned in terms of suspects. I also like the minor Thor callout, it's

never

good for anyone to go totally unchallenged in a game of mafia.
- RayFrost claimed Jester? Going to guess that this was a joke.
- I'm actually not feeling all the Ythan hate that's been thrown around; I think he's been pretty townish.
- Inquisitor keeps promising content posts but continuously fails to deliver.
- I did say Ythan was coming off townish before but the discussion on Page 18 is seriously awful. It spills over into 19 a bit but things pick up fairly quickly with the new page. I like Post 469 a lot, that sort of thing is depressingly common I've found.
- Page 20 is pretty crazy, Ythan's posting frenzy is getting a bit much and Ray comes up with a fairly spirited defence against Pomegranate's vote. I sort of buy his side but I really fucking hate meta talk (

especially

when it's someone talking about their own meta).
- Welp at Post 517. Locke's first post is pretty good though.
- Copper is unnerved by the "speed" with which the Cheshire wagon grew... at the top of Page 22.
- Ew, RayFrost's Post 357. "Trust me, I have the town's best interests at heart."
- Copper and Thor both criticising the TCC wagon now... hm. Something to remember for later.
- Kthxbye starts catching votes for the manner in which he put Cheshire at L-1... not sure if I agree. The comment about flipping is iffy but I don't think it's out of character for most newbies.
- More defence of Cheshire from Copper in Post 572.
- Thor changing his mind about Cheshire in 575?
- And now we have a bit of sparring between Copper and Thor near the top of Page 24. Not sure what to make of this, I can't quite tell whether it's authentic or not.

-----------------------------------------------------

Stopped reading at Post 590 (my eyes are starting to glaze over from all the reading I've done and I don't want to miss anything); I will finish my perusal either later tonight or tomorrow. I will leave my vote where it is for the time being.

[Cyberbob]

Whoops:

Ew, RayFrost's Post 357.

This should be 537.

[Cyberbob]

Blarg. Sorry about not having the rest of the game read yet, a whole heap of things came up today that were physically unforseeable to me and now I'm dead tired. I'll see how much I can welch my way through tonight before I fall asleep at the keyboard.

[Cyberbob]

Alrighty, this actually more "the next morning" from my last post but I was just too tired to focus on anything. I've got limited time today so we'll see how far I get.

Starting from Post 590:

- Copper analyses the Cheshire wagon quite well - even though I wouldn't disagree with her lynch I can still agree that her wagon was a fairly poor one - but in doing so I worry that he might be taking even more pressure off.
- Yeah, I think Locke is reaching a bit with his "you padded your vote too much!" line of attack. Actually I'd say this about most of the people he's attacking.
- I like charter's entry to the game in Post 608.
- Is Post 609 the first time Copper's had to fall back on the "I just feel" line?
- Seems like Sotty's on the same wavelength with regard to Cheshire.
- Ah, Thor jumps off the Cheshire wagon as well and hops onto the Pomegranate one.
- Copper's position on the Pomegranate wagon is a good one. I straight-up don't know about the CSL wagon, I see it almost as a regular lurker lynch so I'm not sure if I'd be rushing to vote him over everyone else either.
- Continued skirmishing between Thor and Copper doesn't feel particularly genuine to me.
- Zorblag's Post 625 is v. good.
- Wow, really don't like Kthxbye's hammer promise. It takes all the responsibility out of his hands and places them on whoever put the person at L-1.
- Don't like Locke's Pomegranate vote, at this point she's basically completely inactive (unless someone's seen her posting elsewhere) so to suddenly up and say that she's dodging questions is a bit lame.
- Oh Ray. Really don't like this new style of play.
- Aaand Thor's right back into pro-Copper mode in Post 638. Why is nobody else picking up on this at the time?
- Absolutely agree with charter's criticism of Copper's reasoning for declaring Cheshire town, it's what I was trying to say but couldn't find the words at the start of this list.
- Ahahahah Copper's sudden declaration of Pomegranate as lynch bait in the same post as his vote is just gorgeous. Particularly as "voting to avoid No Lynch" would have been more than sufficient on its own.
- Thor has what is basically a neutral read on Copper. This is significant as I've found that scum are often more likely to give neutral reads on their partners to give themselves room to then go whichever way town opinion does later on.

And that's the end of Day 1 as well as the end of the time I have for posting right now. It shouldn't take too long to get the rest of the way up to speed the next time I'm at a computer.

[Cyberbob]

Commencing my read from the start of Day 2 now.

As for my claim, I do not have a gun.

[Cyberbob]

DAY 2 READING GO (I'm only going to comment on the stuff that jumps out at me the most with this one as I want to get up to speed quickly, but rest assured that I am reading everything)

- Copper is the first to talk about the kill.
- Kthxbye has the right idea with his vote (at least the first part of his reasoning, don't like how he then turns around and buys into the killchat himself). Fate does not.
- Agree with everyone who says Fate's attack on Socrates is bad. Not sure about Copper, though - charter makes a good point about him in Post 719 with regards to the choice of playerslot.
- charter's Copper vote is good.
- The kind of aimless skirmishing that makes up a lot of Page 30 usually hurts my brain to try and read because I can never quite shake the feeling that every single bit of it is just meaningless words. All I'm going to say on this right now is that Socrates owned Fate in Post 744 and that Thor comes off as extremely cautious in just about everything he says.
- Massive +1 to Socrates' Post 768 with regards to the Ythan arguments on Day 1.
- Kthxbye claimed as part of his request for replacement? Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
- Fate's switch to Cppper is pretty hilarious. *clicks next page* Oh good, he did decide to add some backing to it.
- Agree with Michel w/r/t the awfulness of Locke's case on Pomegranate.
- Looks like charter went through the exact chain of reactions to Fate's Copper vote as I did.
- charter's idea of Fate being an easy wagon is certainly an interesting one.
- Oh dear, Pie replaced Kthx... Thor's reaction is spot on.
- And his second post is recommending a massclaim. I haven't read MD in quite a while (and don't plan on doing so anytime soon) so I'm looking forward to reading the discussion of this one.
- laffo post 810
- Quite liking his reasoning for it in Post 818; the bit about having to maintain the charade longer rings particularly true.
- Man, I wish someone other than Fate would attack Copper... he's making a meal of it which will dissuade others who might as well from trying. IMO there's a valid case to be made there about some of the comments of his that I've highlighted throughout my posts.
- Ugh, Fate brings up the Doctor-word. Does surprisingly well in the rest of Post 825 though.
- Re Socrates' Post 830: I initially had the same reaction to Michel's post as you but I don't think he is/was using that as a sole source of his tells so much as a supplementary gauge.
- Ugh, Sotty's claim. The information about Copper is certainly useful (even if it invalidates a whole heap of my comments) but I wish he could have found a better way to bring it up. Better to let people know before too much time is wasted I suppose.
- I like Copper's reasoning for the SK vote.
- Re Thor's Post 844: I think I was referring to you changing your mind about the wagon rather than Cheshire herself. I'd have to go back and check that post again though. As for the "Copper/Fate" question... I kind of get town-on-town-violence vibes from their argument though prior to that Fate had definitely pulled some skeezy moves.
- I'd be down for a Pie lynch based mostly on the history of the player slot he's in, also the point someone made about how little he's talked about up to this point other than his massclaim idea (I do agree with that idea though, and it seems others did as well given the gunclaims that have been taking place).
- Bunch of skirmishing with SK on Page 35, mountain out of a molehill IMO.
- Copper's point at the bottom of Post 870 with regards to the implications of a Gunsmith on scum kill methods is an

excellent

one.
- I am interested in why Fate thinks I am "the last piece of the puzzle". What puzzle, and why am I the last piece?
- Disagree entirely with SK about the risks associated with a mass gunclaim. Rest of Post 874 is pretty terrible as well.
- Most of Page 36 is having a similar effect on me as Page 30 with the exception of the last paragraph of Thor's Post 893. Yeah, I felt pretty dumb when I saw Sotty's claim.
- The entire argument about Pie's stance on the SK wagon is retarded.
- lmao Pie's Post 901
- Second charter's question to Thor about Fate's points on charter.
- SK's fabled isoreads kind of feel like an excuse to post empty nothings.
- charter's Post 916 is interesting, very interesting.
- I know

exactly

the feeling Pie is talking about in Post 924. Every time I hit something that offers resistance I'm horrified at the possibility that I've hit gristle.

FIN. Fucking finally, that took way longer than I ever intended.

Scumlist (in vague order of preference for lynch):
Fate
SK
Pie (mostly for the slot history)

To that end,

Unvote, Vote: Fate

- I will switch to SK if need be in order to avoid a No Lynch.

[Cyberbob]

I'm having a hard time actually seeing your posts as anything more than commentary, at the moment.

That's because commentary is exactly what they are. Did I ever claim any different?

IF you had posted all this and then included a analysis of my play by itself I would've been more than ok with your vote on me.

My goodness! I didn't even to begin to take into account whether you would be "OK" with my vote. How rude of me! I am so terribly sorry.

your subtle building up of a case of a "Thor/Copper team"

Hardly subtle, I outright said as much a couple of times. Interesting that you would choose to paint it this way, but hardly surprising - me trying to be sneaky does detract from the credibility of my vote for you, doesn't it?

Why did you drop this read? When you learned Copper was town, why did you not see that Thor could have been buddying up to Copper?

I don't think Thor is likely to be scum on the merits of his posting alone. It was his connection to the considerably scummier Copper that had me looking at him for the most part; if Sotty's investigation had been on Thor instead of Copper I would probably have voted for Copper with reasoning similar to the one you put forward there.

That's assuming that all other events would have proceeded as they did in actuality, of course. There was a fair bit of pressure on Copper from other people at the time that might have taken the game in other directions.

I suddenly wouldn't mind a Cyber lynch either.

This kind of falsely moderate phrasing is exactly the kind of OMGUS one usually sees from scum trying not to overdo it.

[Cyberbob]

Oh:

(I'm reading this dissonance as, "well my scumpartner is scummy but I think we can push a Fate lynch today)

You read it like this because if you can convince other people that you are correct that would take pressure off of you. It's quite simple.

[Cyberbob]

I'm going to bed soonish, if not a whole lot happens while I'm asleep in terms of voting I will switch over to SK.

[Cyberbob]

Cyberbob, I believe your post #931 missed the most interesting part of Fate's accusation of you: why did you vote Fate over SK?

I disagree with SK on more factual points but Fate came off as more actively scummy a number of times (particularly in his awful attacks on Copper and Socrates).

Anywho it doesn't look like a Fate lynch is on the cards, so I'll hang around and see whether my vote is going to end up being needed to prevent a No Lynch.

I would like people who aren't voting for Fate to explain why though.

[Cyberbob]

I don't feel at all good about this, but

Unvote: Vote: SaintKerrigan

[Cyberbob]

Fate if you could stop spazzing out and abusing caps like a madman that would be cool. Thanks.

[Cyberbob]

...Fuckit, I'm game.

Unvote, Vote: Fate

Here's hoping another two people switch over between now and deadline.

[Cyberbob]

...see y'all tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm sure you will.

[Cyberbob]

Y'all seem to be accusing my replacements rather than me, which is a fair reason to suspect someone, but I've posted a fair amount of content (including a big whoppin' post at the end of last day) that, at some point, I would hope would start to wash out my predecessors a little (my slot's scumminess:posting ratio drops).

"scumminess:posting ratio"? Sorry, but no. You are unquestionably a better player than your predecessors; any attempt at using your own posting to excuse theirs is more than a little ridiculous.

Vote: Pie_is_good

I'm mostly making this quibble because if we get out of this day without anyone sacking up and attacking something I can defend, the day will be rather useless.

The day is still young. I have no doubt that there will be other topics of discussion than you before we lynch someone (whether that be you or someone else).

[Cyberbob]

Huh? Volume of posting is actually

exactly

how I plan to excuse theirs. Many have (correctly) mentioned that I have no business defending their posting against attack - I can't get into their heads any better than you can - so all I can really do is post a lot of content, hope that people don't find it so scummy, and eventually move on.

I agree that you can't do any more than that (whether you're scum or town) but I disagree that it should in any way invalidate or dilute the scumminess of the people that came before you.

Thinking like yours - ignoring the fact that more posting will, statistically, cause more instances of perceived scumminess - is what leads to shitty wagons like the one on Copper earlier. Copper wasn't scummy; he just posted a lot so there was a lot of ammo against him.

If you're going to take the time to categorise my thinking I would appreciate it if you got it right. Thanks.

Re: The night still being young
Three people voted for me with their first post of the day. A fourth has named me as his number one suspect, and I recall making the other three's lists. You'll forgive me if I'm not so optimistic. I'm an awfully easy wagon to join right now, so I'd like to see people actually defend their votes a bit.

We shall see. I've seen plenty of kneejerk wagons forming at the start of a day that don't result in a lynch. Personally speaking I am keeping a very close eye on anyone that might be tunnelling this easy wagon; I will not support your lynch if I think a better one exists.

[Cyberbob]

Why am I in need of prodding? It hasn't been that long since I last posted, has it?

(I've been a bit busy the last day or two over the Anzac Day weekend, it's been all hands on deck at work with the public holiday)

Re: the recent back and forth between Thor and SK... point-for-point SK is looking stronger but man that attempt at a ~hilariously hyperbolised metaphor~ in Post 1038 was absolutely terrible. I'm still trying to decide whether the "you wouldn't be worried" thing looks bad for Thor or not - it's probably something I can see myself saying if I was in his position.
Scum trackers/watchers are by no means rare, and given how it turned out that SK was actually lying through implication about getting a result on him I'd say he responded to it quite well. That kind of "well would you like to explain what you were up to last night mister?????" question is pretty sleazy, if she'd tracked him to one of the people that were killed she would have just come out and said it (most likely voting for him as well).

I know all of that makes it look like I've talked myself into siding with Thor, but I do believe SK's claim and I wouldn't put simple stupidity like implicitly lying past her (even as town). So I don't know.

I'm quite happy with my Pie vote for now, I think he's expecting far more than is reasonable in terms of people letting the scumminess of his predecessors go to the point where his pushing of the point about him not being able to do any more to nullify that scumminess than he already is is bordering on an appeal to emotion. It's a reasonable point to an extent but I don't think it's sound play to totally discard the actions of former players simply because a current one is better at the game.

I'm still thinking about Thor. The "all questions no positions" point certainly is a valid one and I did notice that a bit during my big catchup read but I'll have to consider the other stuff a bit more.

[Cyberbob]

Haha, I got a prod PM from Cathart just as I was about to hit Post.

[Cyberbob]

Huh, didn't feel that long to me (I'm horrible at leeping track of time when I have things on my mind).

[Cyberbob]

@Cyberbob: The main reason I asked for a prod on you is that I wanted to hear your reasoning for voting Pie. Why exactly is he more likely scum?

My vote for him was a bit of a kneejerk reaction to his "scumminess:posting ratio" baloney, but he was on the radar beforehand largely due to the awfulness of his predecessors and how little he offered yesterday beyond talking up his massclaim idea (which I do agree with, it's just that there's a point where it becomes an excuse not to talk about anything else).

I am wavering a bit at the moment with this Thor business though. On top of everything else, the idea of him being scum does stike a bit of a chord in my mind given the connection between him and Copper I made in the past - I discarded it when Copper more or less turned out to be confirmed town as he was definitely the scummier of the two. I didn't really consider the possibility that it might have been Thorscum buddying up to Coppertown.

Alright, I've talked myself into it.

Unvote, Vote: Thor

I dislike the setup of me/Thor as tomorrow's lynch if Thor/me gets mislynched today.

I don't like that either, setting up any lynch in advance is absolutely begging for trouble. Has anyone actually suggested that or is it just the impression you're getting?

[Cyberbob]

3. Cyberbob is the second vote on Fate. It seems he could have easily enough gone for Pie or SK at this point (prior to the role claim, post gun claim), yet he happens to target the scum. He claims he'd be willing to switch to SK to ensure a lynch (he later does this, and then switches back at Michel's and Copper's bequest). I'm getting some bad energy here, but will admit maybe I'm being colored by his voting for me in the present. I personally would not be surprised if he put his vote on Fate during a low threat time for Fate, and figured it would be an easy way to float over to SK 'to ensure a lynch'. I think there's a good chance this ended up being a bussing.

You just keep on reaching for the stars there lil buddy. One day maybe you'll reach them, but today is not that day.

I'll also note that both SK and Cyberbob's cases on me cite the obv. neutrality of my posts...while citing my suspicions of Fate all Day 2 (SK) and my protown/buddying vibe towards Copper (Cyberbob). I find it immensely obnoxious to have those used against me in addition to being told that I'm too neutral and not offering reads on other players. I'll again do not believe I have been too neutral.

I don't think you were being too "neutral" and I never said as much - I think you often used your questions as filler to avoid having to weigh in on some discussions but that's not the same thing as being "obv neutral".

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth in future posts.

[Cyberbob]

@Pie - For pro massclaim I know we have myself, you, and SK.
Anti massclaim is Michel

I don't think anyone else has actually weighed in on the question.

I have said that I'm pro-claim, but to be fair it was a long while ago that I said it.

------------------------------------------------------------

I can't follow the massive battle of the quotes and textwalls on the previous page, I think posts like that try to do far too much at once and points that might actually be good ones get very easily lost. Less quotes, less attempts at making All-Conquering-Argument-Destroying-Doom-Machines and more readability please.

The one thing I have taken from the previous page was Thor mentioning that Fate consistently had a neutral read of Pie for a long time. That's actually rather a considerable point against Pie; scum will often "read" their buddies as neutral or weakly town/scum because it gives them a lot more leeway to follow the prevailing town opinion without risking unwanted attention for flipflopping (which is ironically what I'm finding myself doing with regards to Thor and Pie).

[Cyberbob]

Also:

I am not "defending" Thor or tying myself to Thor any more than those voting Thor are "attacking" him or un-tying themselves to him.

what

[Cyberbob]

How is someone who is voting for Thor not attacking him? That's what you're saying in that quote.

[Cyberbob]

Pie's sandwichchat doesn't really bother me, it's just a more humourous way of saying "that is fucking ridiculous and doesn't deserve a proper response".

[Cyberbob]

Secondary is Cyberbob. Current case is the way he voted Fate, said he'd switch to SK to prevent 'no lynch' did so, eventual switch back as SK lynch became no go. Also had an odd connection in Fate's suspicions insomuch as he went from town to neutral to suddenly scum at the 11th hour which I read as potential last minute distancing.

I don't see anything wrong with the bit about SK, and the Fate bit is tinfoil hat-level reaching that can probably be attributed to subconscious OMGUS.

[Cyberbob]

I claim vanilla.

Pie, you're up.

---------------------------------------------------------

As far as the choice between Thor and Pie (that's what it's more or less come down to for me at this point) that point about Fate's behaviour towards Pie is really resonating with me. At this point I'm probably going to switch over but I don't want to put him at L-1 just yet; I will see if anything comes up in the massclaim.

[Cyberbob]

SK: please cease and desist with these "X IS SCUM

ONLY IF

Y AND Z ARE TOO" lines of thought. You should know better than to make such definite and absolute calls like that, particularly with all the airs of mafia superstardom you've been adopting. Being more or less confirmed town doesn't confer on you any extra mystical powers of deduction.

---------------------------------------

From what I can tell these are the claims:

Pie_is_good - Vanilla (no gun)
Saint Kerrigan - Tracker (gun)
Thor665 - Vanilla (no gun)
Cyberbob - Vanilla (no gun)
Socrates - Vanilla (no gun)
MichelSableheart - Refused to claim role (gun)
Copper - Vanilla (no gun)
charter - Vanilla (no gun)

Nothing really jumps out for me at first glance; I'm not sure what to make of Michel's claim though the idea of him and SK being in a scumteam together is rolling around in the back of my mind. A scum tracker would certainly have a gun in case they were needed to make a kill and SK has been pretty steadfast in her defence of Michel.

Consider also: she was against the massclaim because "scum tend to claim vanilla" (actually that only applies to regular goons, scum powerroles - particularly trackers - like to claim town versions of their roles) as well as her lie about getting a result on Thor. Her flavourclaim was a security guard at Smith's & Cathart's - lolwut? Why would a security guard be tracker flavour?

She was also against the gunclaim at first until suddenly capitulating... to a post from Michel.

One thing to note is that her and Fate were both going at each other pretty hard before he got lynched. The funny thing is that most of it revolves around her claim: the rest is hysterical appeals to emotion like "die scum die" and "you're going to regret those words". Despite all this she still saw fit to switch her vote to Pie because "it doesn't look like we're moving toward a Fate lynch".

Add all that to RayFrost's play as well as some serious Michel buddying today and I'm willing to explore this option.

Unvote, Vote: SaintKerrigan

[Cyberbob]

See response to Pie. And how did I get labeled as "more or less confirmed town?" I don't consider myself cleared at all.

Pretty much everyone is buying into your claim, so yeah - in the eyes of most people I would say that you are more or less cleared. These people are being dumb.

Also, it's interesting that you decry my assertions that only one possible case with Michelscum exists (from someone else's PoV), and then you proceed to make that one case I described.

Nice attempt at being vaguely threatening with that "it's interesting" line. You know who usually tries that one? Scum.

You do realize that everyone except for Michel, Sotty, and I have claimed Vanilla Townie, right? So if Michel and I are scum, that leaves 8 Vanilla Townies + 1 Gunsmith vs 1 Mafia Goon + 1 Mafia Tracker + 1 Mafia [Michel's Role]. Doesn't that seem a little unbalanced to you? Col. Cathart is not an incompetent mod, and I don't think he'd release a crappy setup like that on us.

I'm not in the habit of secondguessing game balance, particularly based on a source as information as the other players in the game.

(by the way I'm not going to fall for that little IF U DISAGREE UR INSULTAN CATHART!!! "trap")

Regarding the bolded, how does my defense of Michel mean that we are scumbuddies? How is this different from the behavior of two townies who trust each other?

lol

This is a ridiculous argument. There are two plausible (in terms of flavor) explanations for why a security guard has a tracker flavor: observing surveillance footage, and following people around. In my case, I observe surveillance footage.

Or you're scum.

Michel made good points regarding the gunclaim and refuted my objections to it. How is this "suddenly capitulating?"

The suddenness with which you backed down and the fact that it was totally without reservation really felt off. The fact that it was to Michel of all people was just icing on the cake.

One thing to note is that her and Fate were both going at each other pretty hard before he got lynched. The funny thing is that most of it revolves around her claim: the rest is hysterical appeals to emotion like "die scum die" and "you're going to regret those words". Despite all this she still saw fit to switch her vote to Pie because "it doesn't look like we're moving toward a Fate lynch".

So you think I'd rather do nothing and let myself get lynched without a fuss? I switched to my other scum candidate of the day because at the time I made the post he had more votes than Fate, and I was interested in procuring a lynch (other than my own). After I posted the updated page showed Michel voting Fate and other people potentially doing so, so I switched back.

yer i totaly sed dat u shuldnt do nething!!!111

And yes, mindless self-preservation votes like that are very anti-town. The fact that you switched back immediately is not relevant to your mindset while you were making that initial post.

How is this different from you switching from Fate to me in order to procure a lynch, and then switching back when more votes landed on him?

I don't have all the other points of scumminess against me that you do, and my attack on Fate actually had some substance to it besides.

RayFrost's stuff I can't defend against, and the Michel-me buddying has not been proven to be scum-generated. You haven't even tried to prove the other half of the equation, the case for Michelscum.

Scum are 1000000000000000000000000x more likely to buddy another player (whether that other player is town or scum) than town. You are scummier in your own right than Michel, therefore you are my initial target.

[Cyberbob]

You're putting me in an interesting pickle, because the possibility of Kerriganscum is very appealing to me since it would justify everything I've done thus far. However, I'm curious as to how you have fluctuated so much to have been voting for me (and I believe the case of voting for me is largely predicated on a belief that Kerrigan is town and thus I was dodging her) to now voting for Kerrigan?

My entire train of thought is laid out in the post where I did the list of claims. I started out with the idea of SK being scum and took a look at some things and some posts and some stuff - that post is essentially stream-of-consciousness (as are a lot of my posts to be honest - it gets me into a bit of hot water re: consistency but I rarely have the time or inclination to fully keep track of of a game's entire series of events).

Am I still second most likely scum to you/ If so, how do you justify that considering you're also voting Kerrigan (i.e. what is the Kerriganscum/Thorscum connection?). If I am no longer suspicious to you, what has changed to affect that?

As of right now I would say not, but a lot hinges on SK's flip if she is lynched.

[Cyberbob]

^^^^^^is probably a bunch of quotes each responded to with a variation on "no u", didn't read^^^^^^

[Cyberbob]

You think I'm joking about not reading it?

[Cyberbob]

You know how to read questions phrased like this?

(I wasn't trying to suggest that I was joking)

[Cyberbob]

but I feel really isn't. He just opened up a post commenting that he now suspects you and Michel.

welp looks like someone is happy with their ~incisive mindreading~ skillz

[Cyberbob]

plus it really isn't as though I was never ever suspicious of SK so uh

[Cyberbob]

hurfadurfablurf lookan for lynch optans itp (in tp (this p (post))) [/b]Unvote Vote charter unvote vote copper unvote vote michel unvote vote thor unvote vote socrates unvote vote cyberbob unvote

[Cyberbob]

ANYONE... NOT............ PIE..................

[Cyberbob]

I'm don't think that the act of switching reads on me from a townier point of view to a scummier point of view itself is scummy, providing he bring a valid argument to the table; but in my opinion he's bringing a bollocks case against me, and after two rounds of debate he refuses to address my current rebuttal to his case, and

that

is scummy.

Cyberbob-Pie is an interesting scenario. I'll have to go back and see if there's any support for that.

hurfadurfablurf lookan for lynch optans itp (in tp (this p (post))) [/b]Unvote Vote charter unvote vote copper unvote vote michel unvote vote thor unvote vote socrates unvote vote cyberbob unvote

Oh hey, look, he left out Pie. I wonder why...

teh omgus is strong with this 1..

[Cyberbob]

EBWOP: So...why not Pie, Cyberbob?

u r dum

[Cyberbob]

Or maybe CyberbobTown is voting for someone that he thinks is scum

[Cyberbob]

Agreed. Now that Pie looks like the popular wagon, it's funny how Cyberbob has actively tried to talk it down. I remember a time when Cyberbob was totally feeling Piescum.

One thing at a time. We can only lynch one person in a day you know!

[Cyberbob]

Shock horror!!!! Michel doesn't like my vote on the person whom I'm asserting to be his scumbuddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cyberbob]

Ok, after reading Kerrigan's rebuttal to Cyberbob's case, I must say, his case is really poor. Particularly Kerrigan's point about him or Michel is likely to be town just so the setup is balanced. It kind of negates the scummatude of his shoddy claim.

I dunno, Cyberbob's argument just doesn't seem very good when the other side is presented. I had Cyberbob as town after his reread since it seemed to be a clone of what I was thinking, but Copper brings up a good point about how Cyberbob is now drifting away from a Pie lynch when deadline is coming and Pie looks like the likely lynch candidate. Cyberbob just ignoring Kerrigan's responses is ultra scummy.

u mad

[Cyberbob]

So.. you want Charter and then me to be lynched after today but you also want people on the SK wagon? Yeah okay.

[Cyberbob]

[quote="Pie_is_good"]Kill Cyberbob and charter.[/quote
ehehehehehehehehehehe

[Cyberbob]

tags fixd:

Kill Cyberbob and charter.

ehehehehehehehehehehe

(posts like that are one of the reasons I love making big switcheroos like this, the amusement is endless)

[Cyberbob]

@Cyberbob: you may find the reactions to such switcheroos amusing, but I fail to see how they help catch scum. I find it extremely difficult to take you seriously.

I fail to see how the reactions help catch scum as well.




Oh you were referring to my switch to SK? It's a sincere one (the humour value is secondary) so uh

[Cyberbob]

Purposefully silly, Pie? Excuse me? The core of my attack on SK is in no way "purposefully silly".

But hey I mean feel free to keep on keeping on with calling me scum and SK town while still voting for SK

[Cyberbob]

@Cyberbob: I'm a bit surprised to hear that your vote for SK is genuine, actually. If I look at the post where you vote him, I see you arguing how SK's behaviour would make sense if he were scum (SK scum -> actions), but as far as I can see, you fail to argue why SK is actually more likely scum then town (actions -> SK scum).

His actions make sense if he was scum (more sense than if he was town), therefore he is more likely to be scum than town. One follows from the other.

[Cyberbob]

Then it seems we are simply in a very serious disagreement.

No kidding, you'd be in the firing line if SK died and flipped scum.

[Cyberbob]

(inb4 Cyberbob votes for me)

Yep! Not for your post but for the exact same reasons I voted you yesterday.

Vote: SK

[Cyberbob]

Here's an interesting proposition: SK is lying about being roleblocked. I mean how convenient can you get? Falseclaim Tracker with a persistent roleblocker on your tail and you don't have to worry about who you claim to have targeted because you're "guaranteed" not to get a result.

[Cyberbob]

I think SK's partner is Michel, as I outlined yesterday.

[Cyberbob]

I don't accept balance speculation as a valid rebuttal to, well, anything (except in extreme cases, obviously, like if someone was trying to propose 6 vigs or something). Do keep in mind that I'm not as confident in naming Michel SK's buddy as I am in my naming of SK as scum. Nothing to do with role balancing, it's got more to do with the buddying that's been going on. Buddying is something that scum do sometimes do with townies, so I am keeping an eye on other people's interactions with SK just to make sure that I'm steering clear of the tunnelvision trap.

[Cyberbob]

Oh hang on a sec, did anyone else pick up on the fact that today is most likely lylo (assuming two more mafia)?

[Cyberbob]

Since when was lying and rolefishing ever remotely helpful?

[Cyberbob]

The SK tradition of OMGUSing the hell out of all and sundry lives on~

[Cyberbob]

So. Many. Quotes.

[Cyberbob]

lmao SK got so worked up and wrote all that and charter isn't even voting for him

[Cyberbob]

thor have you considered the possibility that sk is lying about his role

tracker is one of the easiest information roles to fakeclaim and adding a mysterious roleblocker to the mix makes it impossible to verify

[Cyberbob]

what

doesn't

it have to do with

[Cyberbob]

SPS vote SK and all your problems will be solved

[Cyberbob]

Thor: game balance is a really really dumb reason to make decisions on, hope this helps you with your mafia gaming

[Cyberbob]

(it's dumb chiefly because of how unreliable our information is and also because of its dumbness)

[Cyberbob]

This is the first game I've seriously been accused of OMGUSy play. However, I don't think any of my cases against people are OMGUS at all. If you want me to elaborate on something specific, I can.

lol

[Cyberbob]

@charter
@Cyberbob

How does your SK = scum case justify Fate's pressure on the SK wagon Day 2?

Here's where he hopped on

Third person on the bus. No real pressure on himself yet. Actually has to re-clarify himself that he didn't mean Pie but rather SK on some earlier stated suspicions.

Honestly Thor if you need to have the concepts of bussing and distancing explained to you then I have very strong doubts about whether the town can win this one. In one of my scum games I came right out of the gate voting for my buddy and did not move that vote at all for the whole day; that buddy did end up being lynched. I wouldn't exactly say that I had a free ride after that but I certainly became pretty townish in a lot of people's eyes.

(the point is that even the strongest - or weakest in this particular case as charter pointed out - of votes can be distancing ones)

[Cyberbob]

Usually by looking at how scummy they are in other respects.

[Cyberbob]

hehe good 1..

[Cyberbob]

The panic is rising

[Cyberbob]

The panic is rising

The scum is smiling.

hehe good post u r rilly funy

[Cyberbob]

Also, Cyberbob's been awfully quiet lately.

You know you can just come right out and accuse me of trying to dodge the game/lurk instead of insinuating it, I'm a big boy - I can take it

[Cyberbob]

I

really

hope that hammer doesn't mean we fucked up.

Really? In a peverse sort of way I hope it does.

[Cyberbob]

Vindication is sweet.

...is what I would say if any of my recent reads were in any way on the mark. I suck.

[Cyberbob]

No insights at all Cyber?

Not tonight, I need to get some sleep for work in the morning and I'd need to read back over people's interactions with charter to stand any chance at making up for the ridiculous calls I was making in the latter part of yesterday.

[Cyberbob]

I don't think a No Lynch would solve anything, scum will just kill SPS or Michel (being more confirmed town than anyone else) and we'll be in the exact same situation tomorrow.

I do tend to agree with Michel's process of elimination. I do also recall being somewhat suspicious of Thor earlier in the game regarding his interactions with Copper and some other matter that I've forgotten. I'd be happy with a Thor lynch.

[Cyberbob]

Really Michel? You'd rather vote in conjunction with your top suspect than simply lynch them here and now?

[Cyberbob]

When my opinion on the best course of action for the town coincides with the opinion of my biggest scumread I generally rethink my opinion very very hard (and if I still want to press ahead with it I sure as hell outline why I believe in it so much that I'm willing to align with my strongest suspect in order to pursue it).

[Cyberbob]

Simple: because you want it.

[Cyberbob]

I'm anti-Thor because he's the only one left that I have much of a reason to be suspicious of. As with my reasoning for being anti-No Lynch, it's quite simple.

[Cyberbob]

Sorry about the slight absence... my weekend activity is usually

Thor: As far as I'm concerned your "u were wrong once wat if ur wrong agan!!" line isn't much more than a cheap shot aimed at spoiling my confidence and increasing indecision. Not a very good way to convince people that you aren't scum to be honest.

I haven't made up my mind about the no-kill last night yet. A very strong part of me is inclined to dismiss the lot of it as WIFOM but on the other hand I don't like how Thor is trying to downplay its significance.

Then there's the whole SPS/Michel issue. Gonna need some time to process this.

[Cyberbob]

First line should read as follows:

"Sorry about the slight absence... my weekend activity is usually lower than during the week (perversely) due to the timing of my work shifts."

[Cyberbob]

So I went away and tossed some things around in my head.

The one concrete thing that can be taken out of that no-kill was, as SPS mentioned, that it would have been done to promote uncertainty amongst the town (any kill would have given the remaining players some amount of information about the setup that is presently unavailable).

Who do we know that has been trying to promote uncertainty today? Thor.

I thought about Michel's case against SPS for awhile and if you ignore the WIFOM it works well enough I suppose, but looking at posts made today it becomes abundantly clear that Thor is a fair bit more interested in furthering the same sort of interests that motivated the no-kill last night.

One thing that does actually stand out to me which is sort of worrying:

Reading the answers, Thor's reply feels exactly what I expect from town. SPS' answer is better then I expected, though.

I have a feeling that SPS is the last remaining scum, but I'm far from certain. I am unwilling to No Lynch today, so if Cyberbob has a strong preference for lynching Thor, I'll switch.

This is some serious playing of both sides of the fence. You go from "Thor's reply feels exactly what I expect from town" to "I have a feeling that SPS is the last remaining scum, but I'm far from certain" and then go on even further to say that you'd be willing to lynch Thor.

Have you claimed your full role yet Michel? I forgot.

[Cyberbob]

Is there some reason why you don't want to claim your role that even being in LYLO isn't sufficient to overcome?

[Cyberbob]

Also, you didn't respond to my questions from the last time I responded to you - why is that?

Didn't feel like it. Still don't; perhaps later tonight.

[Cyberbob]

You're addressing my reasoning for wanting a no lynch yesterday and acting as though I was using it as logic for why I'm not scum. You are either misunderstanding my logic or misrepresenting it. I wanted you to consider the possibility you were wrong so as to favor a no lynch in order for you to learn more information - I never claimed the possibility you were wrong should suggest Thor isn't scum.

Pull the other leg, it's got bells on it. You clearly tried to draw a link between my accusations against SK and those against you.

If you want me to defend why I am not scum then please tell me why I am scum. Asking me to defend when I actually haven't been clearly accused leaves me in a position where I am unable to do so.

Oh well.

I have repeatedly voiced my issues with what I believe the case against me is - what do you think of my points there?

Bad.

I have repeatedly asked for a case to be presented against me - why have you not?

I'm lazy and a process of elimination works just fine.

I don't believe I have - I offered what were my thoughts on what information it gave us. If you disagree then shouldn't you explain how my conclusions were wrong?

Why?

You quite literally here just said you were considering dismissing it as WIFOM, which from your perspective has to be a functional town decision...yet apparently it's scummy of me to decide not much information was provided from the no kill??? <--extra question marks because of confusion as to why my action was questionable.

I'm operating under the assumption that you have some kind of a motivation for the things that you're saying (you do have a win condition right?); given that I think you are likely to be scum I am less likely to rush into a situation where I'm agreeing with you.

I didn't say you were scummy for deciding not much information was there, by the way - I said I hadn't made up my mind yet and that I "didn't like" what you were saying. There is in fact a difference.

If me "downplaying" the information I feel it provides is bad, then why is you saying you were about to dismiss it as WIFOM not bad?

See above. I wasn't casting suspicion on you, I was taking more time to think about it because my pre-existing suspicion of you made me more cautious about rushing into forming an opinion that agreed with you.

Cyberbob, do you really think Michel would've voted for me if he were scum? His vote for me eliminated any lingering doubts I had on that front.

So what you're saying is that Michel would have been more likely to just push for a relatively easier Thor lynch if he was scum? Yeah, I can buy that I suppose. There's no real reason for scum to make a gambit like that in lylo when they don't have to worry about reprisal on future days for any shadiness in achieving the mislynch.

Why the continued pressure? I would prefer not to claim. If there is information on my role that I want you to know, I'll tell you.

I just can't think of very many good reasons why you wouldn't claim on what is pretty much guaranteed to be the last day of play in the game is all. But hey. I can always kick myself later if you turn out to be scum.

Vote: Thor

[Cyberbob]

I was wondering how long it would take for you to finally get over that line into OMGUS territory, Thor.

[Cyberbob]

@Cyberbob, a check to make sure: Does your vote on Thor mean that you are not interested in lynching SPS today?

Not really, no. I pointed out somewhere in that large-ish post above why I don't consider SPS very likely to be scum.

If Thor was magically wiped from the game I'd vote you before SPS.

[Cyberbob]

Welp.

----------------------------------

I was thinking that might've been something like Michel's role after he kept refusing to claim in lylo. I was either thinking bulletproof or paranoid gun-owner.

[Cyberbob]

Cyberbob, what were you

doing

this game? You shut down and tried to coast on my lynch, and you did the same thing with Thor, even though SPS looked more guilty and opportunistic than Thor by that point. Seriously, man. What the hell?

No, SPS did not look more guilty and opportunistic than Thor. Sorry!

[Cyberbob]

Thor was running around throwing OMGUS out along with all sorts of other skeazy stuff and Michel was disturbingly willing to lynch both him and SPS given that we were in lylo. There was a lot going on to cover up whatever SPS was doing.

[Cyberbob]

@ Cyberbob: Meh, maybe I'm just tainted that I knew Thor was innocent from my track before I died.

Yeah, "maybe".