Mini 946 The new Zachtown (Game Over!)

[Col.Cathart]

vote: Alex

Choo choo!

[Col.Cathart]

Cirdua and jeromus - You are both missing the point of the wagon, at least in my eyes. He voted himself. RVS or not, if he votes himself, then he's not town.

Normally, I would already start attacking Lacey for discussing the setup instead of proper scumhunt, but my meta on her already told me, she is capable of doing it as a town. So instead - Lacey, for Christ sake, stop discussing the setup. It's closed setup, YOU WON'T outguess mod, and therefore it's pointless to talk about it.

[Col.Cathart]

Self-voting NEVER benefits town. Scum may use it sometimes to drown the town in WIFOM soup. Also - yes, self votes are my berserk button, I hate them with burning passion and I prohibit them in my games.

I always had problems with getting a proper read on people like Alex, but so far his responses are not really helping him.

Other people who are probably scum with Lacey:
Col. Cathart
Cirdua

First establish if Lacey is really a scum (so far, comparing her scum game and town game, I see her more as town here), then start looking for partners.

And I need to hear from the lurkers soon. That is all.

While calling anyone 'lurker' at this point is an exaggeration, hearing something from jason, Jasper, d3x and DRK would be nice indeed.

[Col.Cathart]

As to Co

[o]

lCat:

Cirdua and jeromus - You are both missing the point of the wagon, at least in my eyes.

He voted himself. RVS or not, if he votes himself, then he's not town.

Now that's a severe stretch. I've known a number of people who voted themselves first thing as policy. One of them claimed Serial Killer in each game while self-voting. While I know they did it regardless of alignment, I can say that they were always Town in the games I was in and that no cataclysm of fire (or quicklynch) occurred because of it.

If you had posted that with quantifiers (i.e. "most likely scum based on what we know at this point") I would have been fine. Here you're point-blank justifying a 100% blind policy wagon that probably-not-coincidentally you were

fifth

on. I don't care that it's your "berserk button" and I don't particularly care that there's no direct Town motivation to self-vote (what do you think of Alex playing it off as Fong's Gambit?).

1) I was fifth on the wagon, because I logged on later than everyone else one the wagon (damn fried computer! Thankfully tomorrow I'll have a new one, so I should be posting more often, and stop abusing my friends for Internet ). If I were around earlier, I would be much earlier on it. It's simple as that.

2) Yeah, as you may guessed from my previous posts, I'm perfectly fine with policy lynches, especially D1 when it doesn't hurt town that much even if bothersome player turns out not to be scum.

Yeah, I avoided saying 'turns out to be town' because I know self-voter is not town. He may not be mafia, but certainly he's not town if he willingly decides to cripple the town by voting himself.

3) Fong Gambit? Never heard of.

*reads*

That's a town gambit? It sure doesn't look like. You are making something incredibly scummy, which in my eyes perfectly justifies every vote flying in your direction, and then attack one of the voters for doing the right thing, if some of them will catch some heat along the way?

I would behave like that if I were be scum, not town...

------------------------------

Damn Sunday... I'm out till Monday. Proper read and more scumhunting comes tomorrow, hopefully on my new comp.

[Col.Cathart]

Prod response...

Sorry guys, can't post content right now. Due to my heavily damaged biological clock with an extra addition of exam hell on my uni, I haven't slept any single second since last 27 hours, and I'm dead tired.

On the plus side, I have a new comp finally, so after I'll get some sleep and finally make that damn re-read I should be much more active.

[Col.Cathart]

re-read in progress.

[Col.Cathart]

Why, holding the front line for lurkers everywhere of course. Keep fighting the good fight Colonel. *salutes*

Why thank you. I'm desperately trying to become a General, you see. Constant extension of minimal battle flights number required to retire for my men seems to not work exactly as I want, so I try to make myself a war hero of Lurker's country...

And now, something

completely different

serious.

On Alex/Haylen - I played one game with Haylen before (she was a Doc, I was scum), and I remembered her as a lurky, but a normal, conventional and clever player (she had a really good idea to ground our scum team on N1 with surprising protection target we were most likely going to kill, but luckily we bypassed it with even more surprising NK ), so this kind of play, and comparison to Mastin of all players greatly surprised me. But if her true colors are those shown in here...

Then I'm going to stay with my opinion. She's a distraction to the town, who made IMO one of the most terrible plays imaginable which should be mod-killed or day-vigged on sight (Yeah, I still refuse to call self-voters 'town' even if they flip with town-aligned role, to me they are 'neutral survivors' at best for their outrageous behavior). D1 policy lynches are completely acceptable with me, especially on distracting players, so if a good wagon will form, and the other wagon I support on actually scummy player will die somehow, I'll happily join it.

As you can conclude from my last statement...

unvote

vote: Cirdua

And that's L-1.

I'll be bluntly honest here - I don't have anything new to add to his case but if during re-read I said 'that's a good point!' three times (Here [reply to second to last quote], here [this one especially, I know this from the autopsy], and here [especially the part about not voting at all during entire game]), and if you add his lack of any post I can call 'town', then I'm convinced.

If I had to give you my #3, that would be Baltar at the moment, but that's only a gut read.

[Col.Cathart]

Fact #3 - Oh Hai Col. Cathart, how's the war in lurkerville going. You know, from the one game I played with you when you were town I definitely don't remember you being a non-entity in the thread. In fact, I remember you as quite an active player. What's the dealio?

Part the really awful university schedule right now (I'm barely managing to mod my own game), part mafia withdrawal. That game we played together was one of my first on the site, so I was hungry for mafia games, and it was the middle of summer vacations.

That being said, I'm not here to rant or make excuses. I was invited into this game to make it good, not to make it bad. Weekend starts tomorrow, so I'm going to start playing seriously. Today I simply don't have time. I have two exams tomorrow and it's late in the night...

[Col.Cathart]

Considering his "stoic" opinion on policy lynches, I have to wonder what he'll do with this kind of situation.

1) What do you mean by that?

2) Well, for obvious reasons I didn't realize it yesterday, but this game is really anti-policy lynches. 2 kill sources, maybe even 2 scum teams? And now we're in D2 with 3 townies dead. No, in this particular game I don't approve policy lynches, especially after D1 and 2 townies dead, when we can already have a knife on the throat.

------------

Now let's see... I'm much better in getting town reads than scum reads. I had bad feeling about Baltar, but they were completely blown away during the night and D2. Comparing Lacey's scum pattern with town pattern I'm heavily leaning town. Vi is also town, although my 'too townie paranoia' kicks in, so I'm still cautious in here. I completely don't understand DRK's case on jeromus, would be glad to hear the answers to Baltar's questions. So far I don't have a strong read on any of them (DRK and jeromus), although DRK gets enormous amount of minus points for that Lacey comment pointing toward Lacey-scum if we'll have two scum teams (see below in points against Jason).

Alex... Well maybe if she would post anything, I would say something more than onomatopoeias from being annoyed by his (I'll stick with gender icon I see ATM) behavior during D1.

Maemuki and Jason are my clear top 2 suspects.

Why Mae? Yeah, sure tough schedule is tough, believe me, I know the taste of not having time for yourself lately, but 40 posts a day? This is not 'I have a life'. This is 'I'm enjoying one game while completely ignoring the other'. Considering entire night phase and much more days during D2 to catch up, read everything and start posting, and 40 posts elsewhere which clearly means she HAD time to make at least one post here instead is just mindblowing.

Also, Sotty death works against her, as Sotty was on Jasper's back. I know this is simple conclusion, but sometimes the conclusions are just simple for a reason.

Why Jason? That comment about Lacey and scumteam speculations was such an obvious attempt to redirect discussion to giant Red Herring, my eyes almost started to bleed. While DRK at least has anything to back up his argument and quite solid posting throughout the rest of the game, Jason has nothing.

I'm perfectly happy with lynch on any of those two. If I had to pick the third suspect that would be DRK if only for that Lacey comment. The rest is quite town or 'I don't have a faintest fucking idea'.

vote: Maemuki

Well, because she already has a wagon on her, while Jason not. That's

L-1

by the way, and I'm placing it for the second time in this game already. Talk about coming to the right conclusion at the right time...

[Col.Cathart]

Col is still my another scum in my book, i felt he was scummy on day 1 and nothing has changed today so far.

Col... with 2 kills in the night, that does indicate more than one killing team/roles... its not speculation its fact, and your suspicion on me is OMGUS as I have been suspecting you since day 1.

OMGUS? Really... Of all things to say... Unless I was drunk while reading the meaning of OMGUS, it's voting someone only because someone voted them. I presented you the reasons to vote you. You disagree with them, that's pretty normal (I would be surprised if you wouldn't), but that doesn't change the fact I am voting you for my own reasons, which are not 'you voted me'. Hell you didn't even vote me, so why I should even bother with OMGUSing? Makes no sense at all. Empty accusation, typical for scum.

I also see you fail to mention Lacey was the first one to bring up more than one scum teams, and I believe it was DRK also had mentioned it before me on day 2... I was simply responding with my feelings on something that had already been brought up by a few diff people.

DRK got the same bash as you, but as I already said in my previous post, at least the rest of his posting is solid, while yours - no. You are also missing the point about Lacey and red herring redirection. I wasn't talking about scumteam speculation. That's pretty normal for Lacey, I've seen her to do so as town. I was talking about 'OMG, Lacey mentioned 2 scumgroups before D2, she must know about it beforehand'. One of the lastest game Lacey played (still ongoing so I'm not going to dwell into it) was Fire and Ice, where there ARE 2 scumteams, so that kind of speculation from someone who just love to speculate, I see nothing wrong or weird with it. Since I have very strong town read on Lacey, I see yours and DRK's action as blatant attention redirection attempt onto not scummy player. But while DRK is at least showing in the rest of his post, that he's not that scummy (still not sure about it though...), so I think he might be just misguided townie, your posting and now your very weak counter attack on me made of empty accusations and missing the point makes me feel you are very likely scum.

----

Oh, and about me L-1ing again - I'm not afraid of anything. It just happened again, that my scum suspect is at L-2, and if I find someone scummy... Why should I not vote for him/her? If Mae/Cirdua would be at L-1, and I wouldn't hear anything to clear them (claim, some really good points or whatever), I would've hammer without any doubt if there wouldn't be any important discussion going on.

[Col.Cathart]

Yeah, generally every game has at least 2-3 lurkers per mini game. Sometimes more. Game without replacement is very rare, and happened only once to me. Remember, that sometimes it's not really their fault though...

[Col.Cathart]

Col, I see OMGUS as not only voting your voter, but also accusing someone who has accused you. Maybe not OMGUS in the conventional sense but still borderline OMGUS, at least thats how I have always seen it.

Even if --> Come on, Don't tell me you honestly believe, I even remembered you accusing me in one post during D1, and then during D2 re-reread I thought to myself 'my gosh, Jason is suspicious of me, OMGUS!'. Please, maybe that would have any sense if:

a) you would be attacking me for real during this game. One post with FoS only is far too less for anyone to be actually offended anywhere near OMGUS level.

b) I would actually vote you just because you are accusing me of being scum.

I gave you one reason which is solid for me + the well known fact that you are lurking (yes, me too, I know, pot, kettle blahblahblah, but that comparison doesn't make you look any better). You may not find it plausible, you may disagree with it, but it doesn't change the fact, that I voted you for a reason other than you were suspicious of me, which automatically shuts your OMGUS accusation down on sight.

As a side note, believe it or not, I completely forgot you were even suspecting me (I remembered Baltar in D1 and Lacey somewhere in D2, because they were vocal), so I couldn't possibly OMGUS you because I forgot you were FoSing me once in one of your posts waaaaaaay back in D1.

And with that ,sorry but I am off on my weekend V/LA as I do not get PC access as much during weekends. Cols response avoided what I had mentioned about him, putting each wagon at -1 so

vote: Col Cathart

Huh?

This is your point:

Why am I not voting? its L-1 thats why and I want to give Mae time to respond. Also note.... Col putting Mae at -1 exactly like he did in day 1 with Cirdua... I find that very suspicious... it seems like he does not want to be the hammer in case he comes under suspicion, but this really caught my interest given the circumstances are the same, and once again he puts someone at L-1

I adressed that point about putting L-1 right here:

Oh, and about me L-1ing again - I'm not afraid of anything. It just happened again, that my scum suspect is at L-2, and if I find someone scummy... Why should I not vote for him/her? If Mae/Cirdua would be at L-1, and I wouldn't hear anything to clear them (claim, some really good points or whatever), I would've hammer without any doubt if there wouldn't be any important discussion going on.

I avoided anything? If so, what?

[Col.Cathart]

Apologies in advance. I'll try to be as active as yesterday, but I'm not going to lie, that I'm not really in a mood for mafia right now (and if you checked the news you should know why), so I don't know if my activity today will be satisfying.

Oh, and BTW: Vi, I don't really understand what did you mean in your unvote explanation. Care to elaborate?

[Col.Cathart]

*crickets chirping*

Ok...

Mod, please prod: jeromus, Maemuki and DRK (it's already past his V/LA).

[Col.Cathart]

Jason --> I'm fine, really... I mean, we have a national mourning until Sunday and the funeral, but that doesn't mean I'm supposed to lose contact with the rest of the world for entire week, instead of going forward aye?

Btw, care to address my post 378? It's dedicated to you and your case specifically but you didn't respond to it in your last post.

Jeromus --> You have nothing to add? Come on... You didn't even comment anything on D2. What's your opinion on Jason? Or Mae? Or on whatever, really...

Alex, where are you?

If Mae is posting freely somewhere else, and not here, that means she's either scum, scared of all the heat gathered on her, or she's completely not interested in it. I vote for replacing her, since she's not going to tell us anything either way...

[Col.Cathart]

Vi, if you had to pick 4 scum right now, who would they be? Col, same question.

Mae and Jason obv.

As for other two... Jeromus and a serious headache whether the fourth spot goes to Alex or DRK. Maybe if Alex would post some more, I could really tell.

[Col.Cathart]

I'm in kinda hurry, so more from me tomorrow or later tonight. There's a thing though that needs immediate comment:

So basically my scum list so far is Maemuki, Jason and

Sotty

What?

[Col.Cathart]

You obv skimmed my post.

You obv skimmed the night kills...

[Col.Cathart]

6 players alive? Well damn, looks like we're in deep shit now, especially after losing two biggest town assets.

Anyway, I think it's time for the massclaim. If we really have 2 scumteams, and not just very unlucky Vig, scumteams will really have to kill each other on the next night. Might be a shot for potential town power roles to survive at least one more night (and the more potential fakeclaims from scum, the bigger chance, we'll actually catch one on lying). Not to mention we have no other guns to fire right now. Thoughts?

If we'll all agree to this, and if we'll gonna do it Popcorn style, I vote for Jason going first.

[Col.Cathart]

DRK: No lynch sounds like a reasonable option, though I want to hear, what do you think of massclaim.

Alex V/LA'ing without any useful opinion is greatly disturbing...

[Col.Cathart]

Lacey: Emphasis on 'If we'.

Sorry if it wasn't clear in my last post, but I suggested either Massclaim or no lynch. Combining them makes little sense to me.

[Col.Cathart]

You know what, people? I thought about scenarios for a bit, and I think no-lynch is a terrible idea.

Let's look at not-instant-town-lose scenarios if we'll proceed with the scumhunt.

a) Ideal scenario: We lynch scum. Ratio Town:Scum1:Scum2 will be 2:2:1. Scum cross-kills themselves. 3 player, two town - normal LyLo.

b) little less optimistic: We lynch scum (2:2:1). Scum2 kills Scum1 member, but Scum1 hits a townie. This leaves us with 1:1:1. Any chance for anyone to actually win this is to no lynch and town has to pray, scum will cross-kill themselves. Any other outcome will result in scum win or tie if they'll both target a townie.

c) similar scenario: We lynch yet another townie. Ratio is 1:2:2. Scum cross-kills themselves, and the rest is the same as in point b)

Any other scenario means defeat for the town. Scenarios b) and c) are completely not dependable on town in any way after the end of D3.

No lynch scenarios:

z) Scum cross-kills themselves. The ratio is 2:1:1. Town has to no-lynch again and pray scum will either target the same townie or they will both kill each other or else town is doomed (lynching any scum means insta-lose, lynching town leads to 1:1:1 scenario).

Any other scenario leads to town insta-lose. Town has no control over this one whatsoever.

--------------

As you can see, if I didn't miss any other town-survives scenarios, no-lynch is a terrible option in comparison to lynch.

I no longer support no-lynch scenario. We need to go with hunting, and so it's again time for the massclaim

[Col.Cathart]

I like C.C.'s idea and totally agree with him. However, I don't feel comfortable revealing my real when it isn't lylo. I certainly don't want to reveal it during mylo. That would be stupid.

If you say so... We have a knife on our throat, this may be very well the last day the town actually has a chance to win. While lynching yet another townie due to mistake won't be game over yet [see scenario c) in my previous post], it's much better to lynch scum today anyway, and I think massclaim would help to actually accomplish that.

[Col.Cathart]

Btw, I'm pretty sure C.C is the last townie, if this is the case. I breadcrumbed my role earlier and he had the chance to kill me during the night if he was scum.

Yeah. Clever, gotta say. And risky, considering I wasn't really town-looking to begin with. Although I couldn't really relate this breadcrumb to any role I can think of, I certainly did get the message. You used some kind of translator, or you had someone to actually translate this for you?

[Col.Cathart]

Actually, you used the word 'Center' or 'Central point', which was the most confusing part of that breadcrumb. For the future, use 'Miasto'

Anyway, enough of this offtopic. Where's the rest of the people?

[Col.Cathart]

You know what? You're right. After even more thinking about all of this, claim moment should happen tomorrow. All pros of claiming will be in full effect since eventual D4 anyway.

Here should be reasons, why and when will massclaim have it's perk during D4 under certain circumstances, when not, and why not now, but considering multiple branches of any single scenario, they will end as a Great Chinese Wall of Text. Just do the math yourself, analyze what will happen if (insert outcome with claimed role and with unclaimed role) will happen, and you should come to more or less the same conclusion. If someone really disagrees at this point, then we can start discussion (if someone wants the main reason of my shift of POV, it would be 'I really would like to avoid 1:1:1 situation [actually very possible at this point] with proven townie' [most likely three-way tie or two-way scum tie, town win chances are somewhere near 0. Town won't win and therefore I don't want it], which may happen if we will massclaim right now).

In the meantime, how about lynching Jason (for the same reasons I was for his lynch on D2), Jeromus (terrible underperformance, avoiding the thread if Alex speaks truth in 520) or DRK (his gut-scum for VP during entire game makes me think he might be responsible for his death, if he was actually hunting for mafia)?

Basically, I feel that both Alex and Lacey hinted a powerrole, and so, from my perspective (one of the two remaining townies), one of them is a dirty liar, but I think those other 3 mentioned above are much more safe bet for scum right now.

Since there is already one vote on jeromus, and we are not scared of scum quick-hammer for the town lose,

vote: jeromus

(L-2), though I am totally open for changing it for anyone else from 'scummy trio' and Alex/Lacey if someone will find good enough reasons to do so. Lynch at this point is not really that powerful anyway, and all the drama will happen during the night (not to mention 66% chance of hitting scum at random, and 80% chance for me to vote scum at this point).

[Col.Cathart]

I'm here, but there's not much to say anymore... Not until anyone from scummy trio will actually post something.

[Col.Cathart]

God damn it, Leeroy... God damn it.

To Werewolves: Why the hell did you kill me? Weren't you of all people talking about me being '98% town'? >.<

After Jeromus lynch, it was a bit weird feeling, knowing that I was the ONLY townie alive (not for long ). I hoped for a 1:1:1 situation, and with me having a bit town reputation during late game, I hoped that scum and wolves will play the game of coward, who'll actually try to kill me instead of more scummy one, and of course crosskill themselves once again. Of course, it couldn't work, as it was completely not dependable on me.

Terrible luck for the town with picking the order for lynches. I should have stay on Mafia's back, as I was really sure Jason was scum since D2 was scum and DRK since D3. Then again, I was sure that Mae and Jeromus are scum as well.