Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Fate]

Let's hope no one else forgot about this game during the long period of absence.

The Henry kill has me scratching my head. My assumption was that a high-activity player would be the kill, and the scum would encourage this massive turnover. Picking a lurker like HH doesn't make too much sense. While it could be for WIFOM purposes, causing a bit of confusion simply doesn't seem like a legitimate scum reason to do the town's job in hitting a lurker. Did anyone here get a PR read off of Scrambles/Henry? I personally did not, but if the scum did that would be one possible explanation. There's also the chance that kthnx is scum and worried that Henry would return and revitalize the case against him.

Fate, I have a question of you. The mod's post gave the impression that you were allowed to choose what slot you replaced in to. I'm curious as to why you chose CSL's slot over TCC's.

I'll tell you why, but this should make it obvious:

Vote: Socrates

On my read through (mostly skimming, then doing TCC in ISO afterward), TCC is horrible.

The sad thing is Socrates is not, but he has a LOT of scum hunting to do to make up for that slot.

Case on TCC:
-Lurks Lurks and more lurks. Unlike the SFG/CSL slot (who seemed to have replaced out for legitimate reasons)
-Says, in not so many words, "I AM scumhunting!"
-Timing of Troll vote is horrible.
-Frequent, "I'll catch up!" promises with no keeping good on them. I find that scum does this more often to try and get a free pass before eventually replacing out to try and "save the slot."
-Never has any real suspects besides lurkers at all, chooses which lurker to vote arbitrarily
-Posted tons of fluff earlier on

TLDR: I choose this slot because on a read through of the game I found TCC very likely scum. And who wants to replace into a scummy slot?
At best I'm a townie that looks horribly scummy, at worse I'm scum that looks scummy. I went with the "clean slate" slot, and what do you gain by asking me this?

Poor Socrates. But I was in a game against him where he was scum. That's why I'm calling for pressure on Socrates until he makes good on his "posting promises." I am NOT letting that slot lurk for one more page especially with a mastermind scummer like Socrates in it.

Speaking of people who have been scum against me before, Sotty. A vote on Ray Frost? How productive is that? I have trouble reading him, and he always shrugs off pressure. Feels like scum wanting to go back on a the "other" mislynch wagon from yesterday. In that game I lost to you as scum you often went after the easy lynches...

Now I'm thinking that Ray is town and you're setting up a mislynch for tomorrow after the other flips town today.

unvote vote Sotty7

Huh. Ythan said it best. (I'm writing this as I re-read)

Now, Copper, I have a question for you. Why are you meta-gaming the NK so much? Do you think Kthx is really scum just because the person suspecting him died? Do you have any other reads?

Speaking of you, TCC's flip should tell us a lot about Copper. I'm reading now at TCC was at L-2, and then Copper goes and votes... CSL? Before the TCC replacement dismantled the wagon?

Oh wow, Sotty is the one to start the Pom wagon. Thor and LL follow suit.

Tech prediction: Scum had no choice but to buss TCC because of how awful he was, then a replacement comes in and they get an excuse to shift it over to randomtarget #45: Pom.

TCC flip today tells us A LOT, as much as I hate losing Socrates as a good player, his slot has way too many connections. At least he can help us while he's here, and who knows, maybe he'll convince us he's found scum.

We know scum was on Pom's wagon most likely:
If TCC is town: the people that came on the wagon later are likely scum.
If TCC is scum: the people that shifted the wagon away from TCC and onto Pom are likely scum.

[Fate]

Copper's NK meta-gaming is definitely suspect. A fluff post that allows him to not comment on Day play or the Pom wagon post-flip.

I have no problem with Troll. Maybe because I can't read him at all, but he has sounded pretty townie so far.

Locke Lamora, gets plenty of town points from Ythan who I have a strong meta read on. He came onto the Pom wagon later, which means he is most likely scum if TCC is town. Other than that he's been a lot less active than Ythan.

Kthx replaced NS, who had some rage issues with Ythan that I thought were pretty scummy. (Frustrated scum replacing out when town tunnels you correctly). Takes RayFrost seriously and role fish,+scumpoints.
Continues to fight with Ythan as his predecessor did. Leaning town on town. Starts a wagon on TCC, who I think is scum.

I'm not moving my vote from Socrates until he contributes enough to get a read, pending that, may move it to Copper.

[Fate]

make it sound more like a fatalistic policy lynch for information. If you're thinking he's scum, then I'm curious as to why you think he will help us while he's here.

Policy lynch? Hell no. It is an

information

lynch. Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?

And ANY player, regardless of alignment, can "help us" by posting meaningful posts. The more Socrates talks today, the easier it will be to find his scum buddy (if scum) or scum, (if he's town and actually looking for scum).

I made my previous post without reading Socrates+Copper, for the record.

Also, you didn't answer, why did you ask me why I choose the slot I did? What read did you think you would get by asking such a question?

Re Socrates:
I do still think about that game at least three times a week. I daresay it has left a scar on me, but your play wasn't the one who fooled me. Still, I think you're a competent player, and if you noticed, I'd be willing to NOT lynch you if you just provided some content.

So far you haven't, vote stays. "Lol Kthx is scum. No wait FATE is! For voting me! Lololol"

You can't defend your previous' slots actions, I know. But you were a major wagon yesterday. Analyze your wagon, SOMETHING, useful, and then self-vote. If you're town, take one for the team, I know we can find scum on your wagon. If you're scum, self-hammarzz.

Kthxbye. Oh wait I can't say that...

[Fate]

Also, you didn't answer, why did you ask me why I choose the slot I did? What read did you think you would get by asking such a question?

Although the amount of replacements in this game has been unusual, the Mod giving the replacement the choice on who he wants to replace in, I would argue, is definitely not standard practice. Surely this choice implies that you looked over the game before making your selection, and there are all sorts of strings attached to this. Was CSL a "better" slot? Did you think you'd be able to wield more power? Were you prepared to argue that TCC was scum? Did you not want to play as scum/town?

"Wield more power." What is that supposed to mean? Rolefish much? You mean influence? ANY slot has only as much influence as any other, unless there's a double voter of course. I've replaced into hopeless town slots before (check my wiki, I was lynched in MyLo after replacing into a double replacement), where there was nothing I could do to argue against the scumminess of my predecessors.

But not every slot is the same scum wise. I won't repeat myself about the clean slate.

Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?

Why not go the whole nine yards? Are you prepared to line up your lynches? Socrates scum automatically means Copper is the next lynch and vice versa?

Twisting my arguments, I see? So now seeing connections between playes is "lining up lynches" not "searching for the scum team." I think TCC's slot is scum, as RayFrost said before, what is wrong with looking for his partner?

Here it is again. In one breath, Socrates and I are both 100% scum partners, and in the next, you ask Socrates to provide enough content to give you an excuse not to vote him. Just claiming that Socrates' graceful presence is enough to justify moving your vote is bad, but when you go against it all to say he's your biggest scumread, then you're doublespeaking.

100%? I never used such strong language. Socrates, if town, isn't a "graceful presence." He's a pro town force. You act like I'm calling for a "QUICK LETS LYNCH SOCRATES AND THEN LYNCH OFF HIS FLIPS!" No. I want Socrates to say his piece first. I've tunneled before as town and I lost two games in one day this week because of it.

Copper, your vote was in a few places yesterday besides my slot.
What do you think of another Ray Frost wagon and Sotty's advocation for it?
Who do you think as most likely scum on Pomegranate's wagon?
Why did you vote Pomegranate when she was the only person to vote CSL (me) with you? Did you think Pom+CSL was likely? Why?

Still happy with my Socrates vote. Socrates, besides Kthx being scum for "hypocrisy" (what?) and me being scum for being on you, what else do you have to say? YOU NEED TO CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS!

@Rest of game: D2, post please, Kthxhello.

[Fate]

I have no problem with Troll. Maybe because I can't read him at all, but he has sounded pretty townie so far.

Which is it? You can't read him or your leaning town on him?

Leaning town for now. More lynches and vote count analysis. will tell us about a player like troll (see: hard to read).

You also didn't really answer my question, I would like to see your top three scum picks in your next post.

I don't see why I need to spell it out for your:
1. Socrates
2. Copper
3. Sotty

I made this clear from my analysis of D1.

This is such a cop out any player slot would be a good information lynch at this point. you are reaching so bad on such shaky logic it's not even funny.

You are twisting so hard with a chainsaw defense it is not even funny. Socrates has still yet to do anything to alleviate his slot. Combined with your posts I am leaning more and more scum on Soc.

Fate's attack on Socrates is awful, this TTC was bussed theory doesn't even hold weight under his own analysis in post 711. Won't provide a solid scum list. Wants to lynch for information at this point. if Fate is scum then I doubt Ray is because of how he scolded my vote. Smacks of I told you so. Definitely regretting not following Copper onto CSL yesterday now.

How can a theory hold any more weight than a theory without actual facts? I'm not selling the "TCC WAS BUSSED" any harder than just a theory until after that slot flips. I'm not going to tunnel vision and ignore the fact it just as easily could have been a mislynch that lost traction and switched to Pom.

[Fate]

(along with the irony of ignoring me I'd like to point out Socrates' vote is still on me as he posts this)

[Fate]

The problem is that you aren't looking for TCC's partner. Your 'tech prediction' was that the scum bussed TCC before hopping over to the Pom wagon. But neither Sotty nor myself ever voted for TCC. You say that the Pom wagon was a quick attempt for scumbuddies to save TCC, but TCC had requested replacement before a single vote was on Pomegrante, and there's virtually no danger of a slot being lynched when there's no one occupying it and it has not unclaimed.

You aren't looking for TCC's 'scumbuddies', you're looking for another viable misylnch and putting in the token suspicion because it's what you came in with. If you are town, then you need to understand that your ideas need to make sense together in some way, and not just claim that your suspicions are a lump sum of your thoughts without checking them against each other. The fact that a legitimate collection of separate minds can lecture you so easily on cognitive dissonance is telling.

There's no danger? Why would a wagon dismantle just because someone replaced out? Usually people leave the wagon on until the replacee can come in and speak for themselves (reference: a D1 of another mini I'm in)? It is because the Pom wagon was created.

Also, you don't need to vote your scumpartner to buss them. Sometimes just distancing is a stronger tell, with posts like these:

That being said, Cheshsire is a very close second. After her huffy 'I AM hunting scum thank you very much' posts it's worrying that she couldn't find anything better than a one-line explanation lurkervote (particularly when, as Thor points out, there are worse offenders among us.)

TCC was voted very soon after this was posted. And then a few posts later you say:

I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.

WHOA THERE. Now TCC is just disinterested and not scummy?

Using advanced vocabulary doesn't make your points any more valid. Who is the collective of minds again? Sotty, you, oh and Socrates of course.

It's certainly not a bad wagon, but I want to hear a bit from Ray before I weigh in on the matter.

So you won't take a stance on it until RayFrost comes in.

Kthnx, Zorblag, charter, and I were all more-or-less forced to go along with it, and it doesn't say anything about any of their alignments. Only Sotty, Thor, and Locke voted for Pomegranate without being under specific duress, and, as I allued to yesterday, the only thing that really puts me off about that is why the far worse offender CSL was completely ignored. It's something to consider if you flip scum, but barring that there isn't too much data to gather off of that wagon at the moment.

"Forced to go along with it." This is BS. I've had last minute lynches jump from town to scum before: Check D1 Whendoneque mafia that just ended. If you believed strongly enough that Pom was town you could've made a switch happen. I'm guessing your case on CSL wasn't strong enough, I wonder why that could be. Maybe because CSL had offered just about as much to contribute if not more than TCC. I find it telling that you choose CSL over TCC out of the "Two most likely to be replaced" slots.

Because she was the only possible lynch. I put no real thought into whether or not Pom was scum; I lynched her because otherwise we would have no-lynched.

Scum go off on a nowhere tangents often (See: your CSL vote) just to slow town down. Then when a deadline shows up... OH QUICK GOTTA LYNCH SOMEONE! The only wagon you tried to build yesterday was on a lurker, and before that Ray Frost for breaking meta.

Locke, CSL, and kthnxbye all hopped on to Pom's wagon in quick succession. You obviously think you're town, but what about those two?

I've said before I think Kthx is scummy. He replaces in and puts an opportunistic vote on TCC. Locke jumped wagons pretty terribly yesterday (switched from TCC to Kthx when TCC started approaching a lynch).

I'd like to hear what they have to say about Socrates.

Oh yeah, speaking of which, what do you think of the new TCC, Copper? How's that switch from Kthx to me look?

@LL:"Fate: why do you hate losing Socrates as a good player? Shouldn't we only keep good players if they're town? This seems to miss the point of the lynch. "

I thought I answered this. See my:

And ANY player, regardless of alignment, can "help us" by posting meaningful posts. The more Socrates talks today, the easier it will be to find his scum buddy (if scum) or scum, (if he's town and actually looking for scum).

I'd hate to lose Socrates if he's town. His contributions to this game and his suspicions (two of the failed wagons from yesterday, Kthx and CSL) aren't indicating that he is town.

[Fate]

Fate: others have alluded to this, but the information comments and that remark about being sorry to lose a good player suggested you felt bad about lynching Socrates even though you thought he was very likely scum. Also, what was poorly timed about TCC's Zorblag vote?

The only person I've ever played before in this game is both Socrates and Sotty. I respect Socrates as a player. I don't see why my "I'd hate to lose Socrates as town" is being twisted against me as me "defending him." I'm not, I'm voting him FFS. If it turns out that slot is town and it was ruined by TCC's scumminess D1, I would be for mislynching Socrates.

And of course, all this is moot now. Socrates has now posted. Socrates is definitely scummy, and we should be lynching him today.

TCC's Zorblag vote is horrible. Are you not seeing what I'm seeing? He is asked to throw down a vote, and says, "OK I will." *randomly picks a lurker* "Vote Troll!" If he were the "lack of motivation/newbie" Socrates tries to paint him as, that vote makes no sense.

Re: Socrate's latest nugget of wisdom:
"This game makes my head hurt. Here's some random questions to throw out." Still no suspicions? Still nothing to back up your Kthx suspect and your vote on me?

Sounds like scum to me.

[Fate]

Avoiding prod, going to court today should have something tonight.

[Fate]

For the sake of avoiding tunneling, and seeing that Socrates is doing the same thing as me (This game is painful to read, we agree on that much at least), and tunneling-

Unvote: Soc

Vote: Copper

Wagons make the discussion go round.

*thumbs up*

[Fate]

And now to actually post content:

There's no danger? Why would a wagon dismantle just because someone replaced out? Usually people leave the wagon on until the replacee can come in and speak for themselves (reference: a D1 of another mini I'm in)? It is because the Pom wagon was created.

Wagons dismantle when there's little enough time that there might not be a replacement. After all, TCC wasn't replaced until night one. If you had been here day one, would you seriously want to lynch TCC's slot while it was empty and could be a PR?

I don't like how you're subtly setting up TCC's slot to be a PR. Seems like you're setting up to believe his claim with a "Oh, so that's why he lurked terribly, yeah I buy the claim" later on.

I wouldn't have lynched an empty slot though, like I said, I would have left my vote on until a replacement came in (and begged the mod for an extension due to replacements).

Did you not read the very next paragraph of that post?

You mean

I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.

Where you distance yourself from calling TCC a disinterested townie by saying you did suspect him at one point or another? Yeah, it was noted.

No. That was referring to the fact that "Copper" is a hydra, with multiple people posting in the game thread. And yet, despite the fact there are multiple people trying to come to a consensus, our views still have a coherence that your posts have been lacking. Now, it's not scummy in and of itself to have clashing internal views - it can happen easily enough when you go off of a standard book of 'scumtells' without looking at context. I'm voting you moreso because I simply can't see you as a townie making honest points, particularly with the vehemence you've been pursuing them. Socrates has already hit on quite a few reasons why I think this, particularly this one:

Reason the forth, there are plenty other players in this game who are clearly under-contributing that he is patently ignoring. What about troll? I hear he is a good player (I've been called "the Zorblag of the scum team" as some kind of compliment before) and he has 1 post today. so how does Fate deal with him? He will be easier to read with vote counts and lynches? Pah! I've never seen a more shameless equivocation. What about Lockelamora who is doing a whole lot of nothing? Does he get a free pass because he has never hoodwinked you in the past? What about Kthxbye who made a really scummy vote and then promptly went V/LA?

This a response to both: I only have one vote. No one is getting any passes. Just because Troll is hard to read doesn't mean I will never try to pressure or suspect him. I already said my thoughts on Lock and Kthx, who are now both getting replaced. OH JOY.

[Fate]

More @Copper:

What exactly makes my play different from Socrates? The only reason you seem to be voting me over Socrates is the "assumption" that Socrates is town for the sake of your arguments. You even boldly state this to be true.

We both have replaced in. We both posted our first thoughts and essentially crossvoted (though of course I am biased and think Socrates voting of Kthx, THEN, me was much more scummy).

You come in, say "well I'll assume TCC is town therefore Fate is scum." Which will be all nice and good if TCC actually does flip town, and "strengthens" your case on me. That is another reason I switched from TCC to Copper. He's more likely scum of the pairing there upon further review, if only because Copperscum boldly calling TCCscum town doesn't make much sense in my mind.

So, upon re-reading your post where you vote me, you think I'm scum because I think scum were bussing TCC? As in you think my reads are wrong so you think I'm scum?

Or did you pick on the person that you had "a consistent suspicion of" (voted CSL D1) and now are trying to push a mislynch on because I've posted more and it is easier to twist what I say than my previous' inactive slots?

[Fate]

Fate's constant and incessant characterization of me as some kind of mafia god that is obv scum if I don't live up to his hype and catch all of the scum in 1 page is obnoxious and is completely dishonest.

Reason the first, There is no way Fate could have actually developed that kind of meta on me because he has never seen me play as town! If he had actually taken the time to meta me, he would know that I am very, very bad at scum hunting. I think I only have 1 game in my entire career where I have successfully caught multiple scum.

Alts Ftw. I've played with you before, buddy

Reason the second, By creating this impossible high set of standards for which I must play to, there is no amount of contribution that I can actually make that he can't claim that its "not good enough".

High standards? You're only case right now is on me with a weak vote on Kthx earlier. I know I'm town, so yeah, you're obviously doing poorly with your scumhunting. Back this up with a cop-out, "I'm usually wrong as town" is distancing from your own vote and it is BAD. No one else but Troll seems to see this though.

Reason the third, the day has less than two pages to it! Not only have I been contributing more than aptly, I had specifically stated that my schedule was mostly tied up this week and would not be able to read the game in full for a few days. Talk about an easy target.

"More than aptly"="This game make head hurt. Ow. Kthx is scum, wait no, Fate is scum for voting me." Ok.

Reason the forth, there are plenty other players in this game who are clearly under-contributing that he is patently ignoring. What about troll? I hear he is a good player (I've been called "the Zorblag of the scum team" as some kind of compliment before) and he has 1 post today. so how does Fate deal with him? He will be easier to read with vote counts and lynches? Pah! I've never seen a more shameless equivocation. What about Lockelamora who is doing a whole lot of nothing? Does he get a free pass because he has never hoodwinked you in the past? What about Kthxbye who made a really scummy vote and then promptly went V/LA?

See other post.

Reason the fifth, if I am such a good scum player,

then isn't "contribution" the exact kind of thing that I am good at faking?

What

ARE

your standards Fate? What exactly were you actually expecting to see out of me that would satisfy you? Apparently catching two scum in less than a page isn't good enough (Admittedly, one of those scums is you ).

I'm expecting to see you adequately analyze and dissect D1 play and vote accordingly. That said, I've come to realize that I myself haven't even lived up to those standards (as said before, I think it might be due to D1 being such a painful read.)

But STILL. You're first content post is "lol @Fate's case on me"+quote Kthx&Vote on Kthx. It is like you're not even trying. I ISO you and you say nothing except to attack me (which serves as a defense for yourself by picking apart my case), and yeah. The only other stance you have taken is loosely in ISO #11 where you start to give thoughts on D1 and who is scum on what wagon, as well as having a Town-read on Ythan's slot.

@Socrates: who is scum based off

D1

and the POM lynch? You can keep your vote on me for my "play" today, fine, but you're reluctance to offer your thoughts on D1 is scummy.

[Fate]

Request Extension Hammer

I never saw the point of early VT claims, they aren't necessarily scummy but they are pretty anti-town. Just helps scum narrow down PRs if town, and makes town "reluctant" to wagon an already scum claimed VT.

Though I've certainly been guilty of pre-empitve Vanilla claims before as town, so I wouldn't put too much weight on it.

More comments on players besides Socrates/Copper to come.

[Fate]

Misc ISO reads:

Charter-Consistent suspicions of Copper, not much else. Charter, Sotty pointed this out, but is it true you still haven't read through D1 and analyzed it? You haven't said about other players.
@Charter: Yes, I think I've given other reasons as to why I would like a Copper lynch. Let's not forget the fact that my fav pick Socrates' wagon issn't gaining much momentum, and town needs to start coming to a consensus if we're going to ever move this game forward.

Sotty-Asks a lot of questions. I find this playstyle more suitable for scum as it allows them to appear scumhunting, (aka "I'm sitting back and looking for reactions") without taking any strong stances or building good cases. Kept vote on Ray for his whole meta thing, until she switches over to a Ythan deadline vote. Gets off when LL replaces in (I agree with him) and goes back to RayFrost, but keeps suspicions of LL with posts like:

Ugh Locke's hop is weak. I'm not seeing the Ray contradiction, it just looks like a game of semantics to me. He also justifies his TCC vote only to abandon it. I don't like it.

Her Pom vote was one of the worse on the wagon. She "geniunely" thought Pom to be scum

Unvote, Vote: Pom

I really think she is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath.

After not having said a word on her before. Why was Pom scum and not other lurkers/inactives that didn't scumhunt? If lack of scumhunting is a scumtell, then why did Sotty think TCC was town? Just because the speed of the wagon?

Here's another fabricated suspicion from Sotty:

With that said I went back and saw that CSL replaced someone I found very scummy SFG/Sajin.

How did you find SFG/Sajin scummy? SFG didn't post outside of RVS (iirc) and Sajin didn't post ONCE. This seems like a blatant, "oh well I found CSL's slot scummy before..." excuse to vote him later, oh yeah that's me and she's voting me today.

After that is more posts expounding her case on Pom. This is just an ISO but so far I'm getting the feeling she was one of the biggest pushers behind this mislynch.

D2:
Seems hell bent on lynching me today, tunneling at its finest. Sotty you have nothing to say about Ray Frost today? You don't even

comment

on him saying, "oh yeah that works, /replaceout"?

Fate, you said it was scummy that Socrates hasn't commented/committed much on day one, what about charter? His vote on Copper is based on today's actions only and he said in thread that he skipped most of day one. Why are you not finding that scummy?

Well, now that I've done an ISO of Charter, I see that he did in fact comment on Copper multiple times D1! This looks like a deflection from Socrates to Charter, "hey look this guy is doing it to, shouldn't you think he's scum as well?"

Re:Pie
YAY MASSCLAIM! OK I'M FIRST? I CLAIM:
Townperson that doesn't want to give scum unnecessary information when we are nowhere near MyLo/LyLo and have legitimate reads that we can go off of instead of claims/setup speculation.

I'll do more ISO reads soon, interested in hearing what SK and Pie have to say about the game. Would not mind a Sotty lynch atm.

[Fate]

This isn't even a point. Pointing out the possibility of a slot being a PR is vastly different then setting up a slot to be a PR. I especially don't understand "so that's he lurked terribly", as though being a PR explains lurking. To the best of my knowledge, neither I nor anyone else have offered the idea that being a PR both causes and is a explanation for lurking. You're making up senseless points and then calling us scummy for saying them.

I thought it was common knowledge. I've seen time and again a strategy for doctors to be ride low under the radar and lurk in hopes to avoid a NK by scum. My points aren't senseless, you just want to make them seem that way to invalidate them. I reckon I've hit something here based on your reactions so far.

Lynches are the responsibility of the players, not the mod. We already had one extension day one, it was incredibly unlikely we would have gotten another. This petulant clinging to a favorite lynch when the target doesn't currently exist and deadline is approaching is terrible play, though I'll concede it's not necessarily scummy.

It is terrible play to push for a lynch that you think will hit scum? Oh, ok. I suppose it is far better to just ride on to a random mislynch near the end of day instead (Pom). Sure, Pom lynch > No lynch, but you're trying to paint it in such a light that speedlynching Pom at the end of the day was

good

play, when it was most definitely scum fueled (both the last minute push and the general inactivity that led to a need for a last minute target).

I can see Sotty as the one setting up the lynch, milling around until near the deadline, and then the rest of town+scum pile on in an act of "pro-town lynchinz."

This is exactly the sort of thing that makes it very hard to see your 'case' as an honest attempt at scumhunting. Let's remember what that was a reply to:
So it went something like this:

Fate: Copper quickly changed his mind from thinking TCC was scum to disinterested. That's scummy.

Copper: The reason for this change was well documented. We did think TCC's actions were scummy until multiple events made it seem far more probably she was a disinterested townie.

Fate: Copper is trying to distance himself from thinking TCC is a disinterested townie by claiming he suspected her at one point. That's scummy.

Terrible depiction of the exchange. Both my first and second responses are along the same thought line. I read your interactions with TCC as distancing/bussing until you changed your read in an effort to stave off TCC's lynch (scum very hardly want to be lynched D1, since lynching a townie is just sooooooo easy.) This is all ONE LINE of thinking. Not, "oh now I'll say this in light of your recent posts." No I'm just responding to your responses, my view of the situation has not changed.

Don't you see the problem here? You are claiming that you read through the game and were struck by how scummy the change of thought was, and then later, you were struck by how scummy it was that we had claimed we thought differently earlier. You are not trying to build a coherent narrative, you're simply quoting our most recent post and then trying to paint it as scummy. At one point, Socrates was your top scum suspect and I was your second. Now, I'm your top and it's unlikely that I would have defended TCC if she also was scum. I find it hard to think you're a townie so willing to tilt at windmills when it comes to Sotty and I and yet perfectly content to throw out things like "hard to read, will care some other time" for the likes of Zorblag and Thor.

Read above the quote. While I may not be the most adept at building cases and laying them out to town, I can say that I think my stances are clear on issues. Socrates is still my top scum read, but you are on that list as well. And who has more votes? You. And I'll be damned if I don't throw a vote on you to save myself when I think you're scum anyway. I think it is clear what is happening here. You and your many intelligent heads have a greater grasp of the English language than myself, so if it comes down to "Copper/Fate" you can just twist my words into your own scummy narrative, which looks better to other players because you can post your thoughts clearer.

That doesn't change the facts though, and I can only hope that town can see the motivations behind my posts, votes, and reads.

And also, I don't believe I ever said Thor was hard to read. I don't have much of a problem with any of Thor's posts.

[Fate]

Okay Fate's points on me are bullshit. Yeah I asked questions but I have also provided plenty of analysis too. Yeah I thought Pom was scum, so what?

Unvote, Vote: Pom 

I really think she is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath.

After not having said a word on her before. Why was Pom scum and not other lurkers/inactives that didn't scumhunt? If lack of scumhunting is a scumtell, then why did Sotty think TCC was town? Just because the speed of the wagon?

This is a lie. I spent several posts questioning Pom so I had mentioned her before. If you had actually

read

my ISO you would have seen that. You would have also seen how I differentiated between Pom and TCC.

You're right here.
Your several posts:
1. Pom give me a scum list
2. I don't like how Pom hasn't given me one
3. TCC comes off as newbish to me.

Those are the posts I apparently didn't read carefully enough. My apologies.

With that said I went back and saw that CSL replaced someone I found very scummy SFG/Sajin.

How did you find SFG/Sajin scummy? SFG didn't post outside of RVS (iirc) and Sajin didn't post ONCE. This seems like a blatant, "oh well I found CSL's slot scummy before..." excuse to vote him later, oh yeah that's me and she's voting me today.

Again if you had read my ISO you would have seen me pushing SFG right at the start of the game and why I found her scummy. Seriously.

Like I said, you're really that confident in a read at the start of the game? I did read it, I didn't think you were going to be serious about using it (but I guess you have to pull all the stops to push my mislynch through).

Fate you also ignored my question to you about charter. If you really read my ISO you would have seen that too.

Now you're wrong. Re-read my post and I addressed Charter. He did apparently read D1, and he got the same read of Copper as I do now. I have no problem with Charter at the moment.

I am not liking how both charter and now Fate have clearly missrepped me. Thor also did this, but I'm feeling more a genuine mistake. I really want a Fate lynch at this point. charter is a likely buddy.

Setting up future mislynches? And now what if I flip town? Have you even considered that and what it will tell you? Or are you in scumvision right now? (I.e. unreasonable)

[Fate]

Unvote: Copper

Vote: Socrates

So barring gambits, there go two of my suspects. I can see Socrates scum buddying up to Sotty and Copper now though, feeding off the fact that they think he's obvtown (and using that fact in their arguments), NOT GONNA SLIP BY ME SOC.

We're still missing a large chunk of information (3/4 replacements that have yet to post meaningful posts?), so I'm sure there's scum in that lot.

I could work with a Pie vote. MD chat in a game thread never sits well with me.

[Fate]

I have a lot to comment on tonight after work, this game has finally picked up. I can see SK and Pie as scum, will say why later.

Tech question for my reads: Are you for/against massclaiming, Socrates?

[Fate]

I almost forgot about Bob. He is the last piece of the puzzle.

So far though I find SK scummy.

I'll flesh out my thoughts more (I thought I'd have more time, but oh **** it is tax day and I haven't finished) in future posts, but quick things:

Here's a question for you: if I had made exactly the same posts as I have up to now, but included at least one vote, would you still feel inclined to vote me?

I see no town motivation behind this line. "If I did something different, would you still think I'm scummy?" What purpose does that serve? SK, did you hope to find some telling reaction from Thor to this question? Hmmm I see Thor hasn't even answered this question. So I'd like you to hold off on answering me until he responds, but I want to hear your thoughts on his response.

2. Both you and Socrates are against MC. How about that. Sure it is easy to argue, "well I don't want to out the doc!" and seem pro-town, but in reality MC is very beneficial to town now. Scum have likely not co-ordinated their fakeclaims, and want to make it to N2 very badly. As Thor pointed out, massclaiming right now and early really narrows down the options for scum. Either pick a PR and risk a CC and have to keep up the charade, or a vanilla which blocks them off from any PR gambits later.

That said I'd like to refer back to Socrates contributions to this game. His earlier Kthx vote reads to me (now, with Copper+Sotty town) as a distancing vote. Especially with how quickly he dropped it and how weak it was in the first place.

Upon a re-read I now see it likely that Charter was piggy backing on my reasonings against Copper/Sotty. I can see a Soc/Charter/Pie team.

Again sorry for the short post, but those are my stances. I'll elaborate more when I can.

[Fate]

First of all, the question was directed at Copper, not Thor. Second, I was gauging Copper's reaction to my question. All it would take, apparently, is a vote from my slot to turn his attention somewhere else. It makes me wonder just how many other people are posting with the same content level that I am and getting away with it by slapping on a vote...

This deserves a post of its own. I guess I assumed it was directed at Thor because @Copper makes no sense.

Why are you trying to guage reactions from Copper? Do you believe Sotty and him are scum together?

You're backing yourself into a corner. First I point out the lack of town motivation in your question. So you concoct some, "oh I was gauging reactions from Copper" aka scumhunting. But why are you "scumhunting" Copper?

Unvote:

Vote: SaintKerrigan

Posting the rest now. Also as a preview spoiler I'll admit that the replacements ***Ed the hell out of my previous posts. I thought SK replaced Kthxbye, but then later corrected it to Pie being in that slot. But I didn't change my reads accordingly. Therefore my Soc/Pie/Chart scumteam should read Soc/SK/Chart.

Charter case coming soon as well. It is high time someone mentioned his absence and lack of content.

[Fate]

"Both you and Socrates are against MC." So, not going for a massclaim is equated with being scummy? Does that mean Copper and Sotty are scummy as well? They were against the massclaim, too. I really don't like where you're going with this. It's ill-reasoned and basically looks like a cheap shot at two of the more suspicious players on the board.

I've already explained my issue with massclaiming today in Posts #854 and #859. I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

Yes, not going with for the massclaim is anti-town at the moment with all the claims we have out there. (Kthx claimed VT before he left.) And yes you explained your reasoning behind this. I find intelligent scum can always come up with sound reasoning to support their position. So I look for the motivation behind that position. Why would town not be for a MC? Why would scum?
The answer is obvious and has been mentioned by myself and others.

Your play has been scummy thus far. I always make it a point when I replace in to read the whole game, make posts as I catch up, or one huge one based off the whole game. Why have you been putting hits off?
You have just came in, and started discussing the things at hand, MCing, votes on you, etc. Since you don't have a view of the whole picture, I can safely say you aren't providing content. How can you? Like you say, you don't have enough information yet to throw down a vote. Why are you stalling?

Also, while you're "skipping straight to my ISO" (love to hear the results of that btw), I'd like your thoughts on Charter please, who will be the subject of my next post.

[Fate]

Also most of the things I've said to SK apply to Pie as well. (The whole not contributing because you haven't caught up, and not voting or taking stances for the same reasons). That said, Socrates', "well I'm up for that Pie vote again" is a shitty as shitvotes can get, and makes me not like the Pie wagon at all.

What was your case on Kthx/Pie again Soc? One post you quoted from him? God I wish I could convince people you're scum.

Charter

<- wait this guy is in this game? Yes. And he's had less posts than both SK and Pie who just replaced in (post-wise, not content, but still.)

Summary of his play:
-Suspicion of Copper D1
-Agrees with his predecessor that TCC is scum. Never says why (just mentions that the speed of the wagon is not indicative of alignment.)
-Votes pom before deadline

D2:
-Jumps on Soc after I do, "trying this number again"
-Still believes Copper is scummy, doesn't have much questions for his "main" suspicion (where his vote is at) Socrates
-

When I switch to Copper

he says:

Ok, 774 is really bad as well. Fate, is there any reason other than wagoning you have for voting Copper?

As if to scold my vote on Copper (if the Copper lynch went through he could point to my vote as weakest D3). Later in that post he goes on to say I look "pretty good" with my posts on that page. Slight buddying, egging on a town on town fight (me and Copper)?
-

If Ythan was still in this game, I would not be doing anything but pushing for a lynch on him. His playstyle needs to be punished with a swift lynch in every game he's in until he stops doing it.

Thats a nice useless fluff post. Oh and pushing an imaginary PL while you're at it. Awesome.
-

I said the case on Fate has merit. The case on Fate is his inconsistencies with regard to his opinion on Socrates. He pretty much did that himself, no one did anything to get it out of him. I dunno, it just seems weak.

Wishy-washy stance on me. Looks like he could go either way with my lynch/not today.

Last post he hasn't had time for mafia. Understandable, but we've had A LOT happen. I'd really like to see this slot's input and Cyber's analysis finish. Scum are usually lynched D2 in minis and I'm pretty sure we can nail one today after everyone catches up.

To be clear-
Would lynch:
Socrates
Charter
Saint K

Might Lynch (Neutral):
Pie
Cyberbob

Happy tax-day folks.

[Fate]

Will respond to Charter's post when I have more time.

No gun, Charter go.

[Fate]

#901 might just be the fluffiest post of D2, but he makes no attempt to hide that fact. So to that I say, "that's nice, catch up please."

Oh charter claimed, skimming is bad kids. SK was my first choice, now that I see he just said "I'll go along with the gunclaim" and actually didn't claim.

Charter-Consistent suspicions of Copper, not much else. Charter, Sotty pointed this out, but is it true you still haven't read through D1 and analyzed it? You haven't said about other players.

I started from where Ythan was replaced. I didn't read before that, and I'm not going to. I tried starting at the beginning, but I only got a few pages in before the only thing I could think of was Ythan had me wanting to lynch him on site.

Frustration of Ythan's play=Nulltell (I'm a fan ftr, except the 20page D1 part). Continuing to try and paint that slot as scummy without mentioning Kthx or Pie?
Scummy.

You're joking, right? I was suspicious of Copper since before you were in the game and my reasons for suspecting Sotty weren't real.

Sure, but you took my side on the whole debate of me vs Copper/Sotty, while voting Socrates, not Copper. If you had started out the day with your suspicions on Copper I could have seen you're consistent "town" train thought. However you came in, saw the replacement had voted TCC's slot, and rode on that wagon with me while egging a town on town fight.

Also I never really say you being "suspicious" of TCC. You switched off him, without any real reasoning of "oh Socrates makes me feel better about that slot" or anything. You just responded to Sotty/Copper, and then switched to Copper a little later on after finding his arguments scummy (the fact that he assumes TCC is town.) Wouldn't the best wagon to be on be TCC's flip and then examine Copper's defense of it?

Yeah, I was scolding your vote because that's all that was in the post. When I got to the next page and saw your reasoning, I thought there were good points there. Just voting to bandwagon like you said in your post was pretty suspect.

Fair point, but I don't think bandwagons are always suspect. Especially if I had reason to suspect Copper and I wanted a BW opposing mine.

Going to

vote Fate

His claims that I've followed his suspicions on Socrates and Copper are just plain wrong. I'd been voicing suspicion of them since before he was in the game and my reasons were different than his.

After Sotty claims, he completely shifts all his reasons for his suspicions so he can put a vote back on Socrates. His post looks like an excuse to put down a vote.

He keeps shifting his reasons for suspecting Socrates every time someone points out flaws in them. It's like he's constantly searching for a reason that people will accept, not that he's actually trying to find scum.

Yeah Sotty claims and two innocents basically came forward. Of course I changed my suspicions, why didn't you? Are you going to point out evidence of my reasons for suspecting Socrates? I don't see where I've changed them, as Socrates hasn't even changed his play. The only thing I changed was thinking Socrates was buddying up to Sotty/Copper when I learned those two were town.

In other news, I would do a massclaim or massgunclaim. Other than Fate, I'm highly suspicious of Pie. I was suspicious of Kthx (though I don't even remember why now) and I get the impression Pie is blowing a bunch of smoke with the massclaim idea rather than looking for scum. The only real opinions I've gleaned from him are he thinks Thor is town and that he supports the Kerrigan wagon but isn't voting for it. I get the impression he's waiting until the last possible moment before he votes since there will be less accountability then.

Oh here you are. Now, are YOU joking? You don't remember why you were suspicious of Kthx? Also why would scum (besides it being part of pie's "meta" and him to be expected to do it) push a plan that will likely backfire on them/narrow their options? Also SK is waiting to vote as well, yet you don't mention this. I can see you two as buddies easy.

In other news I hope SK has a reason for wanting to gauge Copper's reaction. Though Charter is raising the scumbar for me to keep my vote on SK.

[Fate]

7. This game will have 2 week deadlines. If by this time no player will reach simple majority of votes, the day ends with NO LYNCH.

Time's tickin SK.

Two gunclaims huh?

So....
A gunsmith,
Two guns,
hopefully a protective role.

Not sure if I buy it.

[Fate]

HEY COMPANY.

The puzzle of this game of course. At the start of the day I was sitting around arguing with two townies and likely scum (Socrates), with no one else really weighing in. I was trying to work with what I had (d1, 3 other players in D2) and failing badly.

Also, I don't see how your line of thinking adds up from"

As for the "Copper/Fate" question... I kind of get town-on-town-violence vibes from their argument though prior to that Fate had definitely pulled some skeezy moves.

- Ugh, Fate brings up the Doctor-word. Does surprisingly well in the rest of Post 825 though.

- Disagree entirely with SK about the risks associated with a mass gunclaim. Rest of Post 874 is pretty terrible as well.

- SK's fabled isoreads kind of feel like an excuse to post empty nothings

To voting me over SK. I REALLY want to see SK's flip now. (I'm reading this dissonance as, "well my scumpartner is scummy but I think we can push a Fate lynch today)

FoS: Cyber

Let's go see your other catchup post for any more inconsistencies.

[Fate]

Alrighty, this actually more "the next morning" from my last post but I was just too tired to focus on anything. I've got limited time today so we'll see how far I get.

Starting from Post 590:

- Copper analyses the Cheshire wagon quite well - even though I wouldn't disagree with her lynch I can still agree that her wagon was a fairly poor one - but in doing so I worry that he might be taking even more pressure off.
- Yeah, I think Locke is reaching a bit with his "you padded your vote too much!" line of attack. Actually I'd say this about most of the people he's attacking.
- I like charter's entry to the game in Post 608.
- Is Post 609 the first time Copper's had to fall back on the "I just feel" line?
- Seems like Sotty's on the same wavelength with regard to Cheshire.
- Ah, Thor jumps off the Cheshire wagon as well and hops onto the Pomegranate one.
- Copper's position on the Pomegranate wagon is a good one. I straight-up don't know about the CSL wagon, I see it almost as a regular lurker lynch so I'm not sure if I'd be rushing to vote him over everyone else either.
- Continued skirmishing between Thor and Copper doesn't feel particularly genuine to me.
- Zorblag's Post 625 is v. good.
- Wow, really don't like Kthxbye's hammer promise. It takes all the responsibility out of his hands and places them on whoever put the person at L-1.
- Don't like Locke's Pomegranate vote, at this point she's basically completely inactive (unless someone's seen her posting elsewhere) so to suddenly up and say that she's dodging questions is a bit lame.
- Oh Ray. Really don't like this new style of play.
- Aaand Thor's right back into pro-Copper mode in Post 638. Why is nobody else picking up on this at the time?
- Absolutely agree with charter's criticism of Copper's reasoning for declaring Cheshire town, it's what I was trying to say but couldn't find the words at the start of this list.
- Ahahahah Copper's sudden declaration of Pomegranate as lynch bait in the same post as his vote is just gorgeous. Particularly as "voting to avoid No Lynch" would have been more than sufficient on its own.
- Thor has what is basically a neutral read on Copper. This is significant as I've found that scum are often more likely to give neutral reads on their partners to give themselves room to then go whichever way town opinion does later on.

I'm having a hard time actually seeing your posts as anything more than commentary, at the moment. IF you had posted all this and then included a analysis of my play

by itself

I would've been more than ok with your vote on me.

But basically your posts went something like this.
"This is all that's happened. This is what I've liked haven't liked (pros and cons on almost every player from what I see), and here's a vote to tie it all together and not look bad like SK and Pie are by not voting." Not to mention your subtle building up of a case of a "Thor/Copper team" and then altogether dismissing it as you read D2. Why did you drop this read? When you learned Copper was town, why did you not see that Thor could have been buddying up to Copper?

I suddenly wouldn't mind a Cyber lynch either.

[Fate]

Oh my lord SK is fakeclaiming. Let me go into detailed reasons why.

I'll start with RayFrost:
viewtopic.php?p=2141910#2141910
A game where RF was ACTUALLY a tracker. Here's a quote:

Eeeeh, my info isn't super awesome.

It's just a role that I've had before.

I was intent on doing better with it this game... >.<

Intent on doing better with it. And he replaces out this game? I don't believe it. In fact I saw him in IRC a few days after he replaced out, so "not feeling well" might as well mean "I didn't feel like being scum."

#2 Convenience: Here's another tracker fakeclaim:
viewtopic.php?p=2227116#2227116

She claimed the One-shot vig went nowhere N1 (OSV had claimed that he hadnt shot before Farside). I see the SAME convenience here, which makes me believe that when SK flips scum Pie is definitely a VT and not a scumbuddy (too risky).

And also like that game I linked above, farside continued to suspect the person she had tracked going nowhere. Why? At the very least, the person is cleared from being the killer or a mafia PR. Aren't there better targets? Yet SK has been going back and forth with Pie all day.

#3: To all those saying "tracker with a gun is a weird claim for scum." No. SK was 2nd to last to claim, after him was Michel who ALSO has a gun. SK then had to backtrack (oh crap I can't risk a CC here), and claims tracker with some BS flavor about why he has a gun. Don't try to reason scums claims as "too weird to be true." If SK had claimed a traditional gun role it might've been counter-claimed by Michel.

#4: Socrates says "oh him as a PR makes sense, that's what I thought all along." But of course he'll vote our CLAIMED TRACKER WHO HE BELIEVES to avoid a nolynch. HOLY HELL SCUMTEAM. Also Socrates' spin of SK being against MC as "Pr trying to hide." The only PR that has a right to hide is the doctor. With both a Gunsmith and a "Tracker" and a confirmed innocent alive, that's too many people to RB+Kill, so why was he worried. And we've already gone over the pro-town reasons for MC.

#5: Timing. Like I said, SK was one of the last to claim, and both my suspected buddies of hers claimed before hand with no gun, as if to say (you can take the fakeclaim since you've got the heat right now). I really don't know why SK was made to claim next to last, (I know I asked Charter to claim before him but as I said I assumed SK had already claimed.)

There is no way SK should get out alive today. We found scum, they gave us a fakeclaim, there's no reason to back down. Being afraid of claims "oh wow well I don't want to kill a

tracker

" only paves the way for scum to make fakeclaims that don't add up but have a fancy title.

Die scum, die.

[Fate]

That is baseless speculation and total bullshit.

Just one piece of the puzzle. Did I mention Ray was acting scummy too?

Well, now. Guess I'm guilty, since I did something similar to what scum did in another game? Or maybe there is such a thing as coincidence?

And also like that game I linked above, farside continued to suspect the person she had tracked going nowhere. Why? At the very least, the person is cleared from being the killer or a mafia PR. Aren't there better targets? Yet SK has been going back and forth with Pie all day.

Oh, this is complete and utter bullshit. Just because Kthnxbye didn't go anywhere

does not mean

the slot isn't scum. It just means it's less likely to be scum than some others, which is why I'm voting for you instead of Pie.

I don't know why I didn't mention this before, but WHY TRACK A CLAIMED VANILLA IN THE FIRST PLACE? Your response is an easy "I dunno Ray did it" Ray is better than that. There is no WAY scum that claimed vanilla early would then go and make the kill for their team N1 anyway. If by some miracle you're town that was a complete and utter waste of a track.

First of all, I was third to last to claim, not second to last. Get your damn facts straight. Second of all, WHY THE FUCK WOULD I CLAIM A ROLE THAT IS UNCONVENTIONAL WHEN I COULD HAVE HAD A MUCH EASIER TIME CLAIMING A ROLE THAT NORMALLY HAS A GUN? Pardon the shouting, but your deliberate obtuseness is just sickening to me.

ATE AND WIFOM ALL IN THE SAME POST WHY WOULDNT I JUST CLAIM THE EASIER FAKECLAIM? I MADE THE WEIRD ONE THEREFORE I MUST BE TOWN.

You forgot the quintessential rule of the human psyche: I don't like dying. Combined with the fact that my role is helpful to the town, that gives a me a vested interest in staying alive. So pardon me if I don't feel very much inclined to do things like out that I'm a power role.

Well if all the PRs are on the table town knows what they are working with, scum can't very well fakeclaim PR without town being too strong, and scum also can't kill all the PRs in one night. But we already had this talk.

This is, once again, baseless speculation and total bullshit. I honestly don't know why you people have left Fate alive for so long when he's been producing all this bullshit.

"THIS IS BULLSHIT THIS IS BULLSHIT"
Nice defense ya got there. Guess I'm right on target.

You're going to regret saying those words. Count on it.

Oh, and my ghost is totally going to haunt your ass until you die. And when you die I'm going to slip St. Peter a note forged in God's handwriting that says you get to spend the rest of your life in Hell, Michigan.

I'll deal with the other posts later. If I'm still alive later.

Oh not the faked "you'll regret this" newbtown tell!? NAO I MUST REPENT FOR MY SINS!

[Fate]

I'll deal with the other posts later. If I'm still alive later.

And this one deserves its own post, of course. This sounds JUST LIKE a power role that REALLY wants to live doesn't it?

NOT.

HAHAH BORAT REFENERCEEEEEE.

THANKS FOR HELPING TOWN BY NOT TRYING DESPERATELY TO LIVE AND GIVING UP SCUM.

SOMEBODYA HAMMARRRR

[Fate]

I'd respond to Copper but he's clearly afraid to lynch a "power role." Well, not all town can be on the lynch, so meh.

Fate, have you realized that it is possible for your suspicions to be wrong? It seems to me that you are not openmindedly analysing new information, but rather are actively looking for ways you can twist it so you can keep your suspicion on the same old targets. Please stop tunneling and start thinking.

Your argument that Ray wouldn't have replaced out if he was a tracker is nonsense, simply because Ray replaced out of all his games on the site.

I'll concede that. But will you not concede how strange Ray's play was this game? "Changing his meta?" Last time I heard that it was from scum in a large 22 player game.

The tracker fakeclaim you linked to is completely irrelevant. Given a bit of time, I can easily find a game where a town tracker investigated someone who didn't go anywhere, but still kept attacking him.

K show me. OH yeah, also show me a single person of competence in mafia who would actually waste a track on a CLAIMED VANILLA WITH 2+ SCUM ALIVE. It doesn't make sense. It isn't good play, its scum play.

SK surprised by my gunclaim and afraid of a counterclaim? When he claimed, three players hadn't claimed. Do you honestly believe he didn't expect any of them to claim gun? Also, why wouldn't there be two of the same role in this game?

I don't know what scum are thinking, but that is my theory yes. Plus claiming Cop forces him to give us innocents, and claiming OSV forces him to be provable. Tracker to go a pre-claimed vanilla going nowhere?
Priceless.

I completely agree with Socrates that SK's powerrole claim makes sense. Does that make me scum with them?

Possibly. Or maybe you're just letting ScumSoc manipulate you by putting ideas in your head. "Oh yeah that guy makes sense, I can see that now."

Let me summarize what Socrates has said: "Well I figured RF was a PR because he acted scummy and he knew he would have a claim to fall back on." A claim to fall back on? His claim (supposing he is a tracker and tracked Kthx) is that A VANILLA WENT NO WHERE. EVERYONE ALREADY KNEW THIS (BARRING TOWNFAKECLAIM). If he wanted some information to "prove himself" he could've tracked Sotty, Michel, Scum, ETC!

The fact that you don't suspect Thor and Cyberbob doesn't mean they are automatically town. Your argument that both his scumbuddies claimed before him assumes that you are completely right about your suspicions. As I said before, please be more open minded.

There is every reason SK should remain alive today. The most important one being that he is pro-town.

I find Cyberbob suspicious. If I had a "gun" I'd certainly investigate Thor as my read of him may be off.

I also disagree that SK looks pro-town. I still haven't seen a shred of scumhunting from these supposed ISOs.... SIX HOURS BEFORE THE DEADLINE.
SK has nothing to offer, no info, no supposed suspects (except me of course because I want him lynched, therefore I'm "obvscum").

I've said my piece. Hopefully we can lynch scum today instead of letting them have a free night to kill our real PRs.

[Fate]

What the fuck happens here?

We didn't win? That's bullshit and you know it colonel we compromised half the town

[Fate]

I mean, yeah sure the win conditions are clear that mafia have to be alive, but then:

1) NO. A PGO is a role that's swingy as HELL for mini's anyway, but making it so that mafia CANNOT WIN AT ALL unless they sacrifice a goon at night to kill him?

2) The flavor was awesome though >_>

3) Meh, I hate replacing into games as either alignment and it always messes with my games. I did enjoy distancing with Socrates like hell and then getting myself lynched.
I regret not being able to claim though since I would've claimed doctor and likely gotten SK lynched (and myself the next day for not dying over night probably)


@SK: I have no idea why my buddies left you alive. I figured you would be confirmed town after I went so hard after you and then flipped scum, but then they pushed for your mislynch during MyLo? meh.

Sotty had the scumteam of Fate/Charter called on D2 so she was dangerous as hell.

I STILL have no idea why we killed a lurker N1, to try and set up Copper for a mislynch? I thought Copper was townie as hell, and I KNEW Ray was a Power role so...

But yeah replacements hurt the town like hell. TWO scum didn't even post at all D1, and if TCC has stayed the whole game there's no way in hell he would've lasted in endgame like SPS did.

But I'm STILL counting this as a win regardless of your crazy set-up flaws Colonel ;P

[Fate]

Fate tbh I'm surprised scum even won. I was following the whole time and I'm pretty sure that the draw/scumwin or whatever you want to call it was due by and large to certain key members of the town. No offense to anyone.

I knew I was going to be scum when I saw you replace out early, since you HATE being scum...


Also I think Michel would've tried to convince Cyber more thoroughly to switch to SPS if he didn't have the out of "meh if I'm wrong we draw so we can't lose BAWHAHAHHA"

[Fate]

I wouldn't be whining if we had decided to kill Michel at some point and got our heads blown off, because PGO is just that type of swingy role.

But getting a mislynch at LyLo....and DRAWING?

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

There was no way we could take care of Michel. He was impossible to get lynched, he was impossible to kill without dying, so we endgamed him. Endgaming is supposed to OVERRIDE mechanics. I.e: Town RB and Mafioso left alive, scum win.

[Fate]

Except SPS had a gun DURING THE DAY.

And since Michel COULDNT lynch him during the day, SPS didn't have to "keep up the pretense" during the day anymore and would just PULL OUT HIS GUN AND CAP THAT MOFO.

Scum win, I'M TAKIN IT TO MD BABY.