Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Pie_is_good]

As someone who has read his posts in mafia discussion I'm not sure whether to be really intrigued or really scared by this news.

I would recommend "really intrigued" if town and "really scared" if scum. I say this because I am great.

Anyways, I'll be working through the thread slowly, but in the meantime if someone wants to recap for me that'd just be lovely.

[Pie_is_good]

Also, someone had better come up with a real good reason as to why we haven't massclaimed yet.

[Pie_is_good]

So it's agreed, then. We're massclaiming.

I say Fate starts, and then popcorn from there.

[Pie_is_good]

Well, I gave you a good 3 hours to voice any reasonable objections, and no one did so.

Anyways, aside from the general non-game-specific reasons for massclaim being awesome, the fact that we have two dead townies means we'll have even more power roles claiming. And massclaim is best when there are either a lot or a few power roles alive - either scum simply doesn't have time to kill all the power roles, or there are no power roles, so massclaim gives no info to scum and yet town knows the setup.

Plus, massclaim is a good idea with 10 alive, always, no exceptions. Especially with one day down.

[Pie_is_good]

I haven't finished reading the game yet. I'm working through it. I'll post my notes when done.

Minor FoS: MSH for the last post. "Analyzing" posting frequency is a nice way to blow hot air around and appear to be contributing without actually putting your neck on the line. The FoS is minor because I realize there's a site tendency for even townies to do exactly that, which is frankly unfortunate.

Massclaiming:
To be clear, I would be pushing for a massclaim in just about any day 2 of a mini normal, although the fact that both deaths have been townies makes it an even better idea than usual in this one.

The downside of a massclaim is that it improves the accuracy of the scum's nightkills. The upside is, that doesn't matter much if everyone's claiming at the same time - scum doesn't have the firepower to off more than one power role a night, which is far too slow when the town power roles can now coordinate with each other. It's also much more difficult for scum to fakeclaim power roles when the massclaim happens early - they have to keep up the charade for longer. Further, it's a huge bonus to scumhunting - instead of asking "Is X acting more like scum or more like a generic town role?" you can ask "Is X acting like scum or more like his claimed role?" This is especially potent when the massclaim happens early, because you lock them into their claimed role before they can properly evaluate, which is a problem townies don't have.

Anyways, that's my case for the massclaim, and if we still don't agree I'll let it drop (but probably push again tomorrow). The case is mostly theoretical rather than game-specific, so it's not worth pursuing too hard in this thread.

[Pie_is_good]

By looking at activity first, I can better judge those accusations of active lurking.

This is what we in the business call "irony."

Still working on the reread. I probably won't be making as much progress as I'd like on it in the next few days, but I'll keep up to date on current events of the thread.

[Pie_is_good]

Didn't realize I was voting Copper.

Unvote: Copper

.

Sotty: Good move with the claim. All Copper voters should get movin'. This also makes me think Sotty's town - it would be a hell of a gambit to make something like that up this early on in the game.

Anyways - and I promise I'll get off of abstract theory in a sec - a claimed Gunsmith is a tricky role to handle. It's probably best to claim results each night; the risk of revealing a cop or vig is outweighed by the benefit of nailing a scum or confirming a townie. This in turn allows us to get tricky - Sotty can say "X, Y, and Z, do you have a gun?" having only investigated one of them, and Scum have to decide whether or not to bluff while townies tell the truth.

Back to the game.

Thor is likely town. Fate I'm having trouble getting a read on, but I don't buy the case that's been thusfar presented (it seems fueled more by Fate getting miffed easily than by Fate acting scummy). A Socrates lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

I acknowledge people have talked about wagoning my player slot, but there's not a goddamn thing I can do about it. I wouldn't presume to know the motivation behind my predecessor's actions any more than you would.

And to reiterate: reread progress is going to be very slow until the weekend. I'll keep up normal levels of activity in the present timeline but may not catch up much on the past.

[Pie_is_good]

You guys seem pretty shocked that I spent some time trying to convince everyone to massclaim.

[Pie_is_good]

@Michel: The point of my "irony" comment was that, by discussing levels of active lurking,

you

were doing a form of active lurking (saying "X has posted in Y amounts" is not an opinion that carries a risk of coming back to bite you).

That said, I don't support lurker lynching except when necessary to keep the game rolling. Yes, active lurking hurts the town, but in my experience it's just not an action taken more often by scum than town. A SaintKerrigan lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but for reasons other than lurkitude. Besides, site meta is such that the suspicion incurred by active lurking far outweighs the benefits of "hiding" from the town.

As I've said, I have no way to defend myself against your vote. I can try and spin my predecessor's actions in a protown light, but in the end your guess is as good as mine. The only move I have is to post enough content to wash out any previous transgressions, and that won't happen before Saturday.

And yes, you're absolutely right that the strength of massclaim improves (or more specifically, its drawbacks decrease) with each existing claimant.

@Thor: I'm always a little cautious when people spin massclaim as my personal pet project. Yes, I'm behind it, but I've been lynched in the past just because someone didn't like the results of the claim and they held me personally responsible.

@SaintKerrigan: The "massclaim sucks because it gives scum a better idea of who to nightkill" argument has been nerfed with an outed gunsmith. The drawbacks of massclaiming (pre-gunsmith claim) used to be "the scum kills the town's best role instead of a random role." They are now "the scum kills the town's best role instead of the gunsmith." Does that make sense?

[Pie_is_good]

I've gotten the general sense you've been trying to give people the answers they want to hear. This is not strong enough for a vote and could very well change.

I've explained why I disagree that massclaim provides "relatively little benefit to us" so I won't get back into that.

[Pie_is_good]

So, you claim that my lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, and then go on to say that the "other reasons" you mentioned weren't strong enough for a vote? Could you please explain this disparity?

I guess I don't see how this is a disparity. You're among my top suspects right now, but my handle on the game is currently poor enough that my top suspects will likely change as I gain info. So I'm not prepared to vote for anyone, but I'm not exactly opposed to the Kerrigan-wagon that was getting underway.

Would you do me a favor and point out the specific post(s) that addressed that?

The downside of a massclaim is that it improves the accuracy of the scum's nightkills. The upside is, that doesn't matter much if everyone's claiming at the same time - scum doesn't have the firepower to off more than one power role a night, which is far too slow when the town power roles can now coordinate with each other. It's also much more difficult for scum to fakeclaim power roles when the massclaim happens early - they have to keep up the charade for longer. Further, it's a huge bonus to scumhunting - instead of asking "Is X acting more like scum or more like a generic town role?" you can ask "Is X acting like scum or more like his claimed role?" This is especially potent when the massclaim happens early, because you lock them into their claimed role before they can properly evaluate, which is a problem townies don't have.

@Thor: As SK said, what points?
@Socrates: Are you voting for me personally or my playerslot?
@Fate: Care to back up the "Soc/Charter/Pie Scumteam" comment?

[Pie_is_good]

SK's points against massclaiming are:
-It outs our power roles, which is bad because scum will know who to kill.
-Scum will just claim vanilla.

The first point is legit and I think basically everyone has acknowledged it. With a gunsmith already outed, the point is much weaker - scum doesn't stand nearly as much to gain - but sure, this is the obvious drawback to massclaiming.

The second point is silly. Of course scum are going to lie about their roles, and if you're saying we shouldn't massclaim

because we haven't given them the time to prep a power role claim

you might need to think about that one again.

That said, I don't necessarily agree with Fate that opposition to massclaim is scummy. In my experience, opposition to massclaim is typically indicative of dumb, not necessarily scum.


...and I would venture to say that the "disparity" between my SK suspicion and unwillingness to vote is a bit silly as well. I'm obviously not willing to lynch you right now, else I would be voting for you.

You

said that you weren't going to vote until you had a better handle on the game. That's exactly what I'm doing right now; I'm just allowing myself to have suspects in the meantime.

[Pie_is_good]

Oh man I am eating the GREATEST Buffalo Chicken Sandwich right now. I mean, this thing is freaking

unbelievable

. I have no idea why I don't order this more often.

[Pie_is_good]

I personally do see energy scored when you admit you're okay with a wagon but have no real scum read on the wagonee in question.

I don't know what "energy scored" means. I also don't know where you're getting that impression. I've been saying that I do have a scum read on the wagonee in question, but that this could very easily be overruled when I actually, y'know, read the thread.

Where did you infer that I was saying we shouldn't massclaim because we didn't give scum enough time to cook up a fakeclaim? Why on earth would I say something to that effect as a member of either faction?

I inferred it from the fact that no scum in their right mind would all claim townie, so I thought

you

thought they were doing so out of panic and discoordination. I now realize that that's not your argument, although your argument isn't much better (if scum all claims townie, we know our power roles to be clean).

Also, as I've said before, the massclaim debate is completely divorced from me finding you scummy.

The latter quote is what you said earlier, and it implies that you would be willing to lynch me, but for reasons other than "lurkitude."

My quote was "An SK lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world." You seem to be reading that as "I WANT SK DEAD RIGHT THIS INSTANT." I was voicing my feelings on the emerging SK wagon. It 0% implies that "I would be willing to lynch you." It implies that if I had to vote right then it would be for you, but obviously I didn't want to vote at all, otherwise I would have.

Also, your attempt to equate the actions above with my unwillingness to vote until I have sufficient data is duly noted.

Err ... yes? That's

exactly

what I'm saying! We're both unwilling to vote until we have more information, yet somehow it's not okay when

I

do it.

[Pie_is_good]

Actually, SK, let me throw the question back at you. You're clearly suspicious of me, yet you're not voting for me. Why is that not a disparity?

[Pie_is_good]

If the scum all claim townie, that does not mean that the town knows the power roles are clean, as they don't know whether the power roles are fakeclaiming in the first place.

True, but if not very many people claim PR we know the ones who do are more likely to be clean.

That's still a willingness to vote for me

I'm getting tired of this argument. I have explained for like 5 posts straight that yes, I found you scummy, but no, I wasn't willing to vote for you (or anyone, for that matter), no matter how hard you insist otherwise.

and later on you ruled out the "other reasons" you said you had for saying "An SK lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world..."

What? Where do you think I ruled out my "other reasons" (impression that you were saying things people wanted to hear)? I'd say those still stand. I read back over and I haven't a clue where you think I said "wait nevermind."

[Pie_is_good]

I do have to say - in the debate you and Kerrigan are having the Saint's points make more sense to me then yours and I see the discussion her way. This suggests either you are scum and are wavering around because you got caught out, or at the very least are phrasing things in a very odd way. I'm feeling more of the former.

I'm sorry, but we're having a language barrier here. Are you saying ...

-That you agree with Kerrigan that my suspicion of Kerrigan without willingness to vote for Kerrigan is scummy?
-That you agree with Kerrigan that my "I suspect Kerrigan but don't want to vote for anyone yet" argument is contradicted by something I said earlier?
-That my opinions/story have been "wavering" and that's a scumtell?
-That my posts are phrased weirdly and you can't understand what I'm trying to say?

I legitimately didn't understand your post, so if your intended point is none of the above let me know. If it's #1 or #2 I'd like to hear why. If it's #3 I'd like to hear where you think I was "wavering" - I feel like I've been pretty consistent. If my posts are phrased weirdly I'll try and clear up my message for you.

[Pie_is_good]

@Michel: Yeah, I'll support a massgunclaim. I'd obviously much rather have a general massclaim, but if that's all we can get going today so be it.

@Thor: I don't think you completely understand what I've been saying. I am in 100% agreement that the "you're saying stuff that others want to hear" read is a pretty weak one that can easily be later overturned. So I didn't vote Kerrigan based on it, although I decided to voice the opinion for make benefit the glorious nation of the town. Now I guess I'm being accused in tandem of having weak reasons and not voting Kerrigan based on them, which is silly because both are true but neither are scummy.

[Pie_is_good]

The quote was "A Kerrigan lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world," and it was my way of weighing in on the emerging Kerrigan bandwagon. Having only read (the most recent) 2 pages of the game, my read on Kerrigan was weak but also the strongest one I had at the time. Rather than lurkin' around until I got a chance to reread, I decided to voice my thoughts.

This is getting ridiculous.

[Pie_is_good]

The quote was "A Kerrigan lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world," and it was my way of weighing in on the emerging Kerrigan bandwagon.

The quote continued with (paraphrasing) 'not for lurkitude but for other reasons.'

You then admitted 'other reasons' were weak.

Why was a Kerrigan lynch 'not the worst thing?'

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich is quite possibly the pinnacle of American Civilization. The sandwich shop down the street is having a sale weekend, which means that I've been ordering even more Buffalo Chicken Sandwiches than usual (if possible). People frequently underestimate how tricky it is to make the perfect Buffalo Chicken Sandwich. You need enough Buffalo hot sauce that each bite is like getting punched in the mouth with an explosion of flavor, yet you need to mix it with enough ranch dressing that your mouth gets cooled back down and your taste buds are ready to enjoy the shock that is the next bite. I don't know how they did it, but I swear these guys have perfected the ratio.

[Pie_is_good]

a) I *do* feel like I've done a not-unreasonable amount of scumhunting given 3 pages to work with, most of which I spent defending myself.

b) Popcorn someone.

[Pie_is_good]

No gun.

Once I'm done with the reread.

Socrates go.

[Pie_is_good]

I reread the last few days. I think SK has responded well to (very mild) pressure and would be willing to look elsewhere. Thor is town but incompetent. A Fate lynch wouldn't be awful.

#901 might just be the fluffiest post of D2, but he makes no attempt to hide that fact. So to that I say, "that's nice, catch up please."

I mean, don't get me wrong - I completely understand where you're coming from here - but my main issue is that every now and then, when I ask them to hold the onions (because onions and hot sauce serve the same function in the sandwich and I obviously can't get rid of the hot sauce) every now and then they get rid of the carrots, too. I mean why would you get rid of the carrots? I like it when you sink your teeth into the soft warm bun and feel the slight crunch and aren't immediately sure whether or not you hit chicken. That way, if it's carrot, it's like a false alarm, but when it's chicken it's all the better because you're like "man, it would have sucked if that were carrot." Carrot is a highly underrated ingredient, and the (usual) inclusion of carrot is one of those things that separates my local sandwich shop from the rest.

[Pie_is_good]

Vote: SaintKerrigan

. Shameless wagoning. We have 24 hours to deadline; something needs to happen.

Mod: Given the state of the game replacement-wise, might an extension be in order?

I should be done with the read today.

[Pie_is_good]

Well, at first I was going to give Kerrigan some credit for identifying that I didn't go anywhere N1. Then I got to the part of the game where kthxbye claims Vanilla in his exiting post. Why the hell would he

do

that?

Feh. With the degree of claiming we've already done massclaim is sounding better and better, but now we don't have the time.

I'll be on for a bit more before deadline to unvote SK if that's what I decide to do.

[Pie_is_good]

My vote for Kerrigan is 60% RayFrost being mad scummy and there's just no way he should have survived day 1, 38% because I believe very strongly in roleclaims being the best source of information the town can get and I wanted to force one, and 2% your (Kerrigan's) actions.

The duel between myself and Kerrigan makes a lot more sense given that our predecessors both took a fair amount of heat day 1.

[Pie_is_good]

Here are my thoughts. tl;dr at the bottom.

Events/Observations of note:

-Locke (in form of Ythan) very focused on his meta during RVS (encourages people to read his other games, etc)
-RayFrost asks for explanation of slightly ambiguous random vote
-Copper/Locke (in form of Ythan) argue about merits of "spamming"

(through pg3)

-Locke (in form of Ythan) gets defensive very quickly when has spamming is critiqued.
-CSL (in form of Sajin (in form of SFG)) gets all cutesy and tells everyone that they're

super special

. Can probably chalk it up to meta, but IGMEOY.
-CheshireCat weighs in super weakly on the Locke (in form of Ythan)-is-spamming skirmish, like she just wanted to make an appearance in the debate.
-CSL (in form of Sajin (in form of SFG)) raises the point that people might be jumping on Locke (in form of Ythan) as an easy target.
-Sotty nails Henry (in form of Scrambles) to the wall on his Locke (in form of Ythan) suspicion.
-Thor is overeager, and as a result is focusing on irrelevant details.
-Pomegranate e-fellates Thor. Also, Pom and Henry (in form of Scrambles) and RayFrost are <15. I hope to god someone used this fact to fish ...
-Thor is doing Conspiracy Theorist scumhunting.
-Locke (in form of Ythan) is posting haphazardly - low filter from brain to keyboard.
-CheshireCat continues cheerleadering without actually contributing. Thor yells at her about this.
-The content:smiley face ratio in CC's posts is approximately 1:953.
-Copper hates fun.
-Ray hides behind meta, then subsequently starts lurkin'.
-Charter (in form of Inquisitor) with rapidfire questions. This is the sign of either scum or pretentious townie.
-Sotty is saying everything I would say.
-Henry (in form of Scrambles) again with the whining about age discrimination.
-Ray overreacts to Copper's accusation.
-Thor is hilarious.
-Good, RayFrost is getting wagoned. I support this.
-Cheshire says Ray is scummy but is unwilling to vote him. Sounds to me like a connection. If one flips scum, I'd go after the other.

(Through 9 pages)

-Locke (in form of Ythan) is getting wagoned. This is a bad thing.
-I

really

don't like the analysis of lurkage; the town is just getting on to something good and now they're getting distracted. If RayFrost or Locke (in form of Ythan) flips scum, FoS to Pom.
-Henry (in form of Scrambles) does this weird attack on NobodySpecial in which he says NS is scum regardless of RayFrost's flip. He gets well-deserved flak for it, but I get a strong town read on Henry (in form of Scrambles) off this series of posts. He reads slightly embarrassed at his logical stupidity but not concerned about his life for it.
-Cheshire still seems to want to make vague cameos in every conversation the town has. Strikes me as very scummy.
-Cheshire commences lurkerlynching. I would be voting either Cheshire or RayFrost at this point.
-Not feelin' the attack on Locke (in form of Ythan).
-Sotty continues to say everything I want to say.
-Holy shit NS is a dumbass.
-Zorblag seems a bit overly repentant for his (relatively not-that-bad) lurking. Not sure what to make of that.

(Through 15)

-Kthxbye (me) is running another Conspiracy Theorist attack. Ugh.
-Kthxbye/Locke (in form of Ythan) is hot sweaty town-on-town action.
-RayFrost is now attacking Locke (in form of Ythan), too! SHOCK! HORROR!
-Locke (in form of Ythan) gets super-pissed about being the lynch target. Seems legitimate; town tell.
-RayFrost drops the "Guys please use more LOGIC and SCIENCE in your attacks against me!" = Pet tell of mine.

(Through 20)

-Strong contributions from Locke.
-My GOD how is Cheshire not dead yet.
-Disagree with Copper that Cheshire's wagon was speedy - as far as I'm concerned it's not speedy enough. No accusation to Copper on this point, though. Copper's collective meta seems to be sitting back and disdainfully critiquing everyone else's opinions in impeccable grammar, and this is just an instance of that. As I previously stated, Copper hates fun.
-I find it strange that, even at lynch-minus-one, nobody is clamoring for a Cheshire claim (especially Pom, who expresses willingness to hammer).
-The sheer stupidity RayFrost is exhibiting in his attack on Kthxbye makes me wonder if I might be misinterpreting dumb as scum.
-Oh no. The Cheshire wagon is waning. Oh no no no no no.
-Thor is talking a lot of sense right here.
-This day just needs to END.

(Through 25)

-Dislike Pom lynch. I think the case on her is weak. I have a neutral read on her.
-For the love of God we had better not start wagoning Copper. The fact that people are even talking about it is ridiculous.
-The Pom wagon strikes me as horribly uninformative. It's a shitty wagon, but town is under deadline and succumbing to a bit of groupthink after a very long day.
-YES! DAY OVER!

Day 2:
-Henry Hathaway's death means the killer probably thought the mild suspicion against him wasn't going anywhere.
-Dislike Fate wagon.

tl;dr

Day 1:
Thor is town (and also competent; I lied). Henry (in form of Scrambles) is town. Sotty is town. Locke (in form of Ythan) is town. Cheshire is scum because she goes out of her way to not piss anyone off and avoid being accused of the standard scumtells. RayFrost is scum because he fell back on "meta" too quickly. The wagon on Locke (in form of Ythan) is crap, but I don't really have a read on Locke (in form of Ythan) either way.

Day 2: Kerrigan or Socrates wagons both good; mostly due to predecessors.


Disclaimer: I'm not actually completely done with the thread after all that, but I'm starting to glaze over and not take info in. Continuing at this point wouldn't do anyone any good.

[Pie_is_good]

Nothing I can really do to argue against that.

As a fellow wagoned replacer, you have my sympathies, but you're correct about that.

Well, you got one. Do you now intend to lynch a claimed power role?

I don't get it - this is the second game in a row I've played where people expect the claim of a power role to be enough to save them. So I'll say this:

The tracker-with-a-gun claim is a bit fishy. I have no idea why my playerslot would get tracked, but also Ray was a dumbass so that's less fishy. In day 1, Ray alluded to some sort of role weirdness (claiming cop/jester etc.) which makes it further less fishy. The idea that the mod

told

you you had a gun is fishy (did he say in the role PM "you're a tracker ... and by the way, you have a gun. Just in case, y'know, there's a hypothetical gunsmith around or something").

Care to list those actions so I can try to defend myself?

You seem to think we should unvote you just because you claimed a power role. You reacted strongly while attacking me when Thor validated you by joining in. As previously stated, you seem to be tiptoeing around ideas that could get you in trouble.

[Pie_is_good]

Probably not going to unvote Kerrigan. RayFrost is just too scummy to live. If we had more time I'd consider pursuing Socrates, whose predecessor I found marginally scummier than Ray (and I've found Socrates marginally scummier than Kerrigan).

[Pie_is_good]

Tangent: I don't understand why everyone fellates themselves over the role of Doctor. Doctor is a weak role that rarely has an impact on the game, and certainly doesn't have an excuse to lie during massclaim.

Untangent:

The Role PM mentioned that I had a revolver as part of my flavor.

Well, okay. But still, at risk of outguessing the mod, I find it a bit unlikely that Cathart decided to arbitrarily hand his tracker a gun in order to nerf the gunsmith a bit. That's both bastard modding and kind of pointless.

As for my "do you still intend to lynch a power role" remark, it was with regards to the fact that you said 38% of your reasoning for voting me was to get a claim out of me.

a) If I thought we had the time, I would wagon Socrates to a claim.
b) For reasons discussed above, I didn't find your claim all that convincing. So some of your 38% can be replaced by "The claim that I wound up getting wasn't all that great."

1. You're misrepresenting me. I'm making sure you're fully aware of the consequences of voting for me. That way, going back to analyze things for Day 3 (if I'm dead), it will be known that you intentionally chose to vote for me.

Err ... okay. You expected me to hide behind "I didn't know he was a tracker, I swear!"? I guess I'll just clarify right now that yes, I am indeed voting for you on purpose.

2. I'm not sure I'm seeing what you mean. Clarify?

First, we argued about massclaim. Then, you made a weak (comment on the intensity, not the validity) attack on me ("So, you claim that my lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, and then go on to say that the "other reasons" you mentioned weren't strong enough for a vote? Could you please explain this disparity?"). Then Thor starts chiming in to agree with you, and each time he does, your attacks get a little intenser.

3. Give me examples, please.

More of a gut thing, to be honest. Will try and post something on this if I have the time, but right now I'm late for shit.

I should be on again just before deadline.

[Pie_is_good]

That lynch was absolutely atrocious. I honestly thought this town was better than that. Next time I draw scum, I'll be claiming PR no matter what, since that's apparently all it takes to survive these days.

Which reminds me, why the fuck did we not at least get a claim out of Fate before dropping the hammer?

Here's the post I had composed before that hammer was dropped:

------

First of all, I was third to last to claim, not second to last. Get your damn facts straight. Second of all, WHY THE FUCK WOULD I CLAIM A ROLE THAT IS UNCONVENTIONAL WHEN I COULD HAVE HAD A MUCH EASIER TIME CLAIMING A ROLE THAT NORMALLY HAS A GUN? Pardon the shouting, but your deliberate obtuseness is just sickening to me.

If I may:
Socrates had a quip I liked earlier. Something like "Site meta is currently such that scum can do exactly what they want in a blatantly obvious fashion and have it written off at WIFOM." I think that applies here.

Pie, by contrast, is pushing SK with largely what looks to be an apathy 'meh' kind of case.

My case against Kerrigan personally is admittedly meh and is based more on weak claim than scummy behavior. I wouldn't call my case against the slot in general "meh" at all. With the exception of Cheshire, RayFrost was in a league of his own.

We'll have plenty of time later to discern whether or not it's a fakeclaim, but I will not see a deadline scramble fall on our claimed PR.

I honestly thought you (all) were better than this, but I'm not about to swing you with deadline looming.

-----

...see y'all tomorrow.

[Pie_is_good]

Because I dropped the hammer at approx. one hour till deadline and the likelihood of Fate showing up to claim during that hour was minimal at best?

Eh, I guess. This just more speaks to the stupidity of the end-of-day flashmob than any particular fault in play.

Also, Thor censored "fuck."

Do you think any other lynch was happening? Cyberbob might have floated back to SK as deadline loomed, but both Michel and Copper were clearly not going to vote SK (and neither was SK, I presume)

I'd prefer any lynch to no lynch (those who said otherwise about SK are being silly). I was more yelling at the constituency who voted Fate because they didn't have the balls to call SK on an awful tracker claim.

Pardon me saying so, but anyone can say "Scum can get away with anything they want as long as they write it off as WIFOM" and use it to try and invalidate legitimate claims. I think that applies here.

Pardon me for saying so, but sometimes I wonder about the importance of the bread in the perfect Buffalo Chicken Sandwich. As far as I can remember, I've only ever eaten them on white bread. This can't be an accident - statistically, it would be too unlikely - so it must be the prevailing culinary wisdom that Buffalo Chicken and White Bread just belong together. But that makes me wonder, would the sandwich actually be

bad

if delivered on another bread medium? Clearly most people think so, or they would at least give you the option of what sort of bread you'd like your Buffalo Chicken Sandwich to be served with. But at the same time, I just can't imagine any circumstances in which a Buffalo Chicken Sandwich would be actively

bad

. I mean, I'm not going to lie: Those things are pretty unbelievable.

[Pie_is_good]

Pie, if you're going to make a point, please be more concise about it instead of launching into an analogous anecdote that can potentially be not understood or misinterpreted from its intended meaning. Thank you.

I understand what you're saying, but is conciseness really all it's cracked up to be? They say too much of a good thing can become a bad thing, but let me tell you: I've had a crapload of Buffalo Chicken Sandwiches recently and it's not even close to a bad thing yet. There's some truth to the idea that the sandwich gets worse over time - diminishing marginal returns, if you will - but that's mostly because your mouth gets slightly used to the tangy deliciousness of the Buffalo sauce and it's not quite as effective the next time it collides with your taste buds. In any case, this effect is offset by the fact that prices diminish just as quickly. A footlong sandwich is usually much less than twice a 6" sandwich, so the price:taste ratio remains about the same.

[Pie_is_good]

Let's get with the massclaim.

[Pie_is_good]

Also, hey, Fate was scum! I mean who saw that coming?

[Pie_is_good]

Do you still suspect SK?

I'll have to go back and check. If they were attacking each other before anyone else wagoned, I don't suspect SK as much. If they only started once their respective wagons were underway, then yes, I still suspect SK.

Pie, who's your top suspect right now?

1) Socrates, 2) SK.

Pie's 'Fate is scum' post seems pretty over the top,

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

and he's still basically active lurking by just blabbering about massclaim.

You either haven't been reading or don't want to bother forming your own attack.

FoS: Charter. Don't like the whole post, especially where he accuses Thor of a quickhammer. Having the balls to hammer is not scummy.

[Pie_is_good]

Whoopsies. Tags got blown on that last post.

Fixed that already - Cathart

I seem to be turning into the wagon du jour, which I can't say was entirely unexpected. Y'all seem to be accusing my replacements rather than me, which is a fair reason to suspect someone, but I've posted a fair amount of content (including a big whoppin' post at the end of last day) that, at some point, I would hope would start to wash out my predecessors a little (my slot's scumminess:posting ratio drops). I'm mostly making this quibble because if we get out of this day without anyone sacking up and attacking something I can defend, the day will be rather useless.

[Pie_is_good]

Also
Yes on Massclaim (2) Pie, Thor
No on Massclaim (1) Michel

[Pie_is_good]

"scumminess:posting ratio"? Sorry, but no. You are unquestionably a better player than your predecessors; any attempt at using your own posting to excuse theirs is more than a little ridiculous. Vote: Pie_is_good

Huh? Volume of posting is actually

exactly

how I plan to excuse theirs. Many have (correctly) mentioned that I have no business defending their posting against attack - I can't get into their heads any better than you can - so all I can really do is post a lot of content, hope that people don't find it so scummy, and eventually move on.

Thinking like yours - ignoring the fact that more posting will, statistically, cause more instances of perceived scumminess - is what leads to shitty wagons like the one on Copper earlier. Copper wasn't scummy; he just posted a lot so there was a lot of ammo against him.

Re: The night still being young
Three people voted for me with their first post of the day. A fourth has named me as his number one suspect, and I recall making the other three's lists. You'll forgive me if I'm not so optimistic. I'm an awfully easy wagon to join right now, so I'd like to see people actually defend their votes a bit. If I get lynched I won't be mad; my predecessors were admittedly both terrible at mafia. But as a townie the best I can do is make my death some info.

I'd like everyone who hasn't done so to weigh in on the massclaim question.

[Pie_is_good]

No Access Friday, Limited Access Saturday.

[Pie_is_good]

In a hurry so I'm just going to address the scumming:posting ratio that seems to be generating flak. I'm slightly baffled as to how you (Cyberbob, Michel) scumhunt if not this. If player A makes 100 posts, 5 of which are scummy, and player B makes 50 posts, 4 of which are scummy, I would much rather vote player B. In this game, the public seems to perceive my playerslot as having a bunch of scummy marks against it. Since I can't manipulate that variable, all I can do post. To clarify: I believe Copper was the guy who made 100 posts, 5 of which were scummy, and got wagoned for it. Which is dumb.

Michel: Why is pushing SK death scummy exactly?

Thor: I realize you have outstanding questions to me but I don't have time to do them justice for a couple days.

[Pie_is_good]

@Copper: I (or rather, my predecessor) has already claimed Vanilla Townie. It turns out me pushing for massclaim isn't that unusual.

Massclaim seems to be getting more support than not (3-1 right now I believe). I'm fine to let SK choose the starter, since he's already claimed.

Thor wagon sucks.

After claim, town is going to collectively hit puberty and learn to get behind your wagons.

[Pie_is_good]

More outguessing the mod:

We're probably facing 3 goons on the same team (one of which just died), based on flavor and the fact that there's been one kill/night. This says to me that NoLynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Actions speak louder then words. I consider the fact that you were arguing in favour of an SK lynch is a strong mark against you.

Because I was arguing in favor of SK lynch, or because I was implicitly arguing against Fate lynch?

If it's the former, I will say that I'm

still

highly suspicious of SK, and if your objection to this is just that SK claimed tracker, you need to learn to stop fellating power roles.

If it's the latter, yes, I was clearly wrong about Fate. Of course, you could attribute this to me being scum in a desperado move to save my partner, but then it's only really a scummy action if you go into it with the assumption that I'm scum. Which is hardly something I can defend against. Also, WIFOM blah blah blah.

Given how Fate pushed for SK's lynch at the end of the day, it is extremely unlikely that they are scum together. Fate could easily and without arousing (more) suspicion unvote SK after his tracker claim.

This is silly. The lynch was between Fate and SK. If they're scumpartners, they stand to lose

nothing

by bussing each other - either way they're down one member. So bussing can hardly be considered a point in their favor.

@ Pie: You are not in a position where you can say things like "Thor wagon sucks" and expect us to be satisfied. Why does the Thor wagon suck?

Um, no. I wasn't offering my services defending Thor, I was weighing in on the wagon - namely, that I'm not about to join it. My personal reasons are that Thor by-and-large named himself Town Captain earlier in the game at a point where it would be neither helpful nor clearing for scum to do so. But I'm a big believer in defending oneself, so I'll leave it to Thor from there.

Re: SK's tracking Thor

Strong mark against SK. As town, this is horribly stupid - he basically tried to trick Thor into claiming with no concrete info against him. As scum, possible motives include rolefishing and a way of saying "Hey guys, I got blocked last night and yet there was a nightkill! Clearly I'm town!"

Neither of those are great motives, but I honestly cannot think of a single explanation for townSK's actions aside from "stupidity."

To Do List:
Read Fate in relation to others, see who actually gets town points.

[Pie_is_good]

In fact,

Vote: SK

, just for giggles.

[Pie_is_good]

Where exactly did I imply that you voting Fate makes you scum? I agree, saying that you voting Fate makes you scum is a silly notion. But that's not why I'm voting you, now is it?

I should point out that, seeing as how

not

voting Fate apparently makes you scum, voting Fate should in fact be a mark in Thor's favor.

[Pie_is_good]

First off, mafia has at least one roleblocker. Second, how the hell is a no-lynch a good idea at this point in time? All it does is give scum a free kill on Michel (because scum obviously aren't going to kill me as long as I have mislynch potential).

Alternate explanation: town has a roleblocker who didn't trust you. Of course, this argument may become moot after massclaim.

No Lynch is a good idea because there's an even number of people alive. Assuming 2 scum, our lynching odds are either (2/8, 2/6) if we lynch as normal or (2/7, 2/5) if we NL first (this is assuming both mislynches, but if not the logic holds). The second one is better.

So the only reason you can't see Thorscum is because he supposedly named himself "Town Captain," and that it supposedly wasn't advantageous for scum? Is that the best you can give me? I call bullshit. There's never a bad time for scum to want to be "Town Captain." When one is Town Captain, people tend to trust you. How is having people trust you not beneficial for scum?

No, of course that's not the only reason I can't see Thorscum (in fact, I spent most of the above post saying exactly that). The Town Captain thing is what gives me an actively

town

read on Thor, the rest of my objection to Thorwagon comes from simply having 0 scum read on Thor, if that makes sense.

The game was nearing standstill due to lurkers and replacements. Thorscum could have easily shrugged his shoulders and haphazardly lurkerlynched without garnering suspicion, but instead I got the feeling that he was legitimately encouraging discussion. And if you think taking charge of a town makes you

less

likely to be lynched, you haven't played very much mafia.

I further don't buy the Thor wagon because I disagree with the points made against him. I think "you needn't be worried about my results" is a reasonable response to rolefishing, and I haven't noticed the measured neutrality he's been accused of. Like I said, I'm not going to argue those points for him, but I'm going on record as disagreeing.

In case you missed the point of this story, Pie is pulling crap out of his ass. I got roleblocked, so my normal means of getting info went kaput. I decided to give my tracking target a reaction test and see how he responded to it. So far, I haven't liked what I've seen.

I'm glad you brought this up, because the other day, while waiting for the sandwich delivery people to bring the steamy hot buffalo chicken goodness to my doorstep, I was thinking about much the same thing. I was starving at the time, and the thought of the succulent, tangy sauce smothering the sharp crunch and warm softness of the chicklets was only making me hungrier. And I thought: You know, in a way, the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich is really a metaphor for this life we lead. When you want something, you build it up in your mind so much that sometimes reality can never live up to your expectations. But then the sandwich arrived and they had included a pickle on the side as a reward for my consistent patronage, so my expectations were once again exceeded. I knew there was a reason I loved that place.

Well, if everyone who voted Fate were town, then that means you and Socrates have to be the other two scum (assuming a three-man scumteam). You might want to be careful about arguing that line.

But more often than not, scum bus their buddies. So I'm not going to exclude anyone who was on the Fate wagon, except for Copper (for obvious reasons).

I was just sayin' - Michel is voting me for not being on the Fate wagon, yet hammering Fate isn't exactly winning Thor any capital.

And if "more often than not, scum bus their buddies" - shouldn't

not

being on the Fate wagon be a point in my favor? Honestly, I get the feeling people are just using the Fate lynch to retroactively find justification for what they already believe.

@Thor: SK sticking his fingers in his ears and saying "La La La I'm the tracker" is a mark against him that I feel is worth pressuring. I'll decide bussing issues once I've reread Fate.

[Pie_is_good]

I further don't like how Pie is defending himself by saying his Posts:Scummy Posts ratio is good. That's like proving something with statistics, you can make that say whatever you want, plus it's not compared to anyone else's ratio, and plus that's BS anyway since that's not how mafia works anyway. You don't lynch whoever has the greatest quantity of scummy posts, else you just lynch the weakest player each day, not scum.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying my posts:scumminess ratio is good. I'm saying that literally the only thing I can do to "defend" myself is to post a lot of non-scummy content to improve that ratio.

I would argue that it very much is - or at least, it should be - how mafia works, but that argument is getting awfully general. I was just saying that I would the pie-wagoners to either a) have the balls to attack something

I've

said or b) back off because if I've been faultless since replacing in, that should be a strong town mark on my player slot.

[Pie_is_good]

I take it you have a political stance toward mass claiming that may be a little more friendly than what is traditionally accepted.

Yes, this is accurate.

Agreed. Pie tying himself to Thor makes me feel as though we're doing something right.

Pie: I don't really like the Thor wagon.
Everyone: Defend your assertions!
Pie: Well, I don't really want to, but X, Y and Z.
Everyone: Oh my god! Pie is defending Thor! Scummery!

I am not "defending" Thor or tying myself to Thor any more than those voting Thor are "attacking" him or un-tying themselves to him.

Did you miss the part where he said he was roleblocked?

Um, no - my whole post hinges on the fact that he was roleblocked. Given that SK had no result, he didn't have any more or less info on Thor than before. Therefore, his decision to rolefish on Thor - rather than, say, charter - was arbitrary. Hence it's probably stupidity, but certainly not town.

Also, as previously mentioned, please let SK defend himself. More to look back on that way.

It's not just the fact that he claimed tracker. It's that his claim matches Ray's behaviour, SK's behaviour and the setup. Furthermore, it is an unlikely fakeclaim for scum to make, especially considering that scum tracker is unlikely given what I've seen from the setup so far. Add to that that the most suspicious players, including confirmed scum, were on his bandwagon at the end of yesterday, and he becomes extremely likely town.

I disagree that his claim matches Ray's (or SK's) behavior at all. I think it's a very likely fakeclaim - tracker who conveniently has a gun - especially shortly after a gunsmith claim, and especially when he gets conveniently roleblocked the next night. I don't consider this town's refusal to consider bussing a point in SK's favor. I am very curious how you plan to spin this disagreement into

me

being scummy.

P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is scum) = high. P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is town) = lower.

I would argue that, given that I had/have approximately 0 political capital with the town, Piescum would really have very little reason to defend a scumbuddy (so P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is scum) is not much different from the case where Pie is town). In any case, this is tough to defend against because I fully confess to pushing SK wagon over Fate and being wrong, so make of that what you will.

For reasons previously discussed, I'm not going to get into the "Thor being town captain" fight.

As for Thor hammering Fate: I consider that a null tell, because both town and scum would do it in that situation.

You don't think Thorscum could have let the day die on a NoLynch?

I think he's expecting far more than is reasonable in terms of people letting the scumminess of his predecessors go to the point where his pushing of the point about him not being able to do any more to nullify that scumminess than he already is is bordering on an appeal to emotion.

I *still* don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that, at some point, you can't get by with attacking me without attacking things I say.

I dislike the setup of me/Thor as tomorrow's lynch if Thor/me gets mislynched today.

[Pie_is_good]

People have made statements to the effect of "Either Piescum/Thortown or Thorscum/Pietown." I have to imagine this will be reiterated tomorrow when one of us gets lynched and flips town.

[Pie_is_good]

2. He avoided discussing his thoughts on myself, Cyberbob/Zorblag/Cyberbob, and Pie to a certain extent. He starts off commenting mixed reads on Zorblag, is pressed by Sotty, clarifies to town, later shifts him (now Cyberbob) to neutral, and after Cyberbob votes Fate quickly puts him to 2nd biggest suspect. Pie basically stays a neutral read throughout and I remain an un-discussed town read.

1) I isoed myself, and I have not the slightest idea where you think Cyberbob became my second biggest suspect EVER. In fact, I listed Socrates as my #2 several times.
2) A lot of the case against me centers around insufficient reasoning. People accuse me of not commenting enough on SK before voting, not commenting on Fate at all, not properly defending my town read on Thor, etc. Upon replacing in, I said very clearly that I wouldn't have a read done until just before deadline. Now I'm being accused for not saying very much about anything until just before deadline. I mean, practically every case against me centers around the same "Pie didn't justify X enough," and at some point I would hope you would start to see a pattern.
3) Accusing me of trying to tip the SK wagon by first announcing that I was "Shameless Bandwagoning" and then hopping on is quite possibly the laziest argument I've ever heard. For starters, I had spent a big whoppin' post explaining why I was in favor of an SK lynch, and for finishers, I would hope you'd have a bit more faith in Piescum's abilities to expect me to think "I know! I'll try to TRICK the town by PUBLICLY ANNOUNCING THAT THIS IS A SHAMELESS BANDWAGON VOTE."

[Pie_is_good]

Two independent points:

1) SK tracking me to no one is a fairly significant point that's largely being ignored. If we're working off the theory of 3 scum on one team - the most damning scenario for me - and the town seems to believe one of the three scum is busy roleblockin', that leaves a 1/3 chance that me being scum is actually consistent with SK's results.

2) I'm hearing a strong majority pro-massclaim. I say we put discussion on hold and get with the claiming. I say Thor starts and popcorn from there (since he's the general #2 suspect and I've already claimed).

[Pie_is_good]

Two mislynches in either scenario loses the game. No Lynch gives Michel to the scum for free. Lynch doesn't. Odds don't guarantee us a scumlynch. I think I'll take Lynch, thank you very much.

You are ignoring the teensy fact that assuming Michel to be town is a really dumb thing to do.

To quote Copper: "Are you serious?"

You are ignoring the teensy fact that assuming you to be town is a really even dumber thing to do.

Encouraging discussion doesn't always equal being town. I take it you've played games where town leaders have been lynched and turned out scum?

Of course there have been individual instances where town leaders have been scum. In my experience, statistically, Town Captains are more likely town (especially when their rise to Captaincy mirrors Thor's), but they're lynched WAY more often than they should be.

There's a lot more to Michel's vote than "not being on the Fate wagon," and you know it. And sometimes scum gambles don't pay off.

I know there's more to Michel's case on me than that, but my lack of support for the Fate wagon has certainly been used as a knock against me. The fact that I'm held as scummy for not voting Fate and Thor is held as scummy for hammering Fate leads me to believe people are just seeing what they want to see to confirm their preconception that Thor and I are scummy.

You may think it's fun to use anecdotes of the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich to try and make a point, but obscure metaphors don't work well as evidence. I would go so far as to say it's anti-town, since the statements have the potential to be misinterpreted. Once again, I request that you be concise and to the point.

You're right - I do find it fun - but fun is a fleeting emotion. I tend to believe in the more primitive, visceral joys in life; including, of course, food. This leads me to be split on the issue of heavily-prepared food such as the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich. When it's so processed and prepared - after all, the Buffalo sauce alone is produced using hours of machine labor - can it really be considered of the same class of visceral joy as a nice steak, or pooping? But then I love the concoction that is the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich so, and it seems silly to forgo it for philisophical reasons. Which I suppose begs an even more overarching question: is it ever worth thinking so deeply about the important things in life (such as the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich) that your actual behavior is changed due to an abstract concept? In this way, I am firmly of the opinion that Buffalo Chicken Sandwiches have deep implications for the nature of morality and its coexistence with the cultural norms we are all bound by.

WIFOM is WIFOM. Saying you wouldn't do something like that as scum doesn't mean you didn't do it as scum. And it's still suspicious.

Again, you miss my point. I'm arguing that it's a null tell at best, because even

as

scum trying to *trick* the town into voting SK would be completely ineffective. There's no WIFOM to be spoken of here because I take any action that would help me as scum.

When asked for specific examples of scummy things I had done, you only provided three things (one of them being based mostly on gut). Everything else I can't defend against, so I can't disprove it. Not to mention you pretty much came up with all this after you voted me. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider your vote for me yesterday suspect.

You're right; you can't defend RayFrost's actions. You're also right that I find "tracker-with-a-gun" fairly damning. You're wrong that I came up with these after voting you; not sure where you got that from.

All this said, it would be super if the rest of the town stopped sitting back and watching SK do their dirty work.

[Pie_is_good]

What?

[Pie_is_good]

Well, that's spectacularly difficult to respond to. All I can really say is that 90% of that is "It would be really awesome if Pie were scum! Look at all the handy dandy things we would learn!" (and the other 10% is predecessors).

Town supports massclaim but isn't willing to stop talking long enough to get it going. Unless anyone objects, I'd like Thor to kick off the massclaim as soon as he's comfortable with it. Claim and popcorn.

[Pie_is_good]

I've already claimed vanilla.

Socrates, you're up.

Thor: This weekend, maybe? There are a few things going on this week that are higher priority than mafia, so I'm willing to not lurk but not necessarily go above and beyond the call of duty.

[Pie_is_good]

Inevitably stupid question: Why is Michel considered confirmed innocent by some?

[Pie_is_good]

Inevitably stupid question: Why is Michel considered confirmed innocent by some?

Read the preceding post.

Spell it out for me - why is a you/Michel scumteam the only remaining possibility?

[Pie_is_good]

Because if I'm town and Michel's scum, it makes no sense for him to move the lynch consensus from me to his scumbuddy when mislynching me would've been much easier. If Michel's scum and I'm scum, then whether Michel votes for me or Fate makes little difference, and if I'm a scum PR, then getting Fate lynched instead of me is a good idea. However, no proof has been presented thus far to validate this theory.

This is horribly, horribly dumb.

For starters, this links Michel to you and not vice versa - it says "If SK is town, Michel is town" but if Michel were to die and flip town it would have no bearing on your alignment.

For finishers, the fact that you want to

assume Michel innocent

based on behavior alone is just silly (scummy, even, I'd venture to say). Whichever way you spin it, bussing happens - even unprovoked bussing. It happened in the game I just came from and I see no reason why we should

assume

it's not happening now.

And for middlers, even if everything you said was true, you're asking the

entire town

to assume Michel innocent when really you're the only one who could reasonably do so.

-----------

I'm honestly starting to lose faith in this game. Everyone is sitting back and watching SK and I duke it out, while chiming in occasionally to say "By the way I still find Pie suspicious but don't wanna do anything about it yet." If SK is town, he's in the trap where he views everything I say through a scummy lens - as evidenced by the fact that he's hounding me even after tracking me to no one.

My gut is beginning to say look harder at Cyberbob. I couldn't tell you much more than that.

Thor: I'm going to have to revise my estimated date of reread to Tuesday (my posting priority goes to the present day, in which I'm trying not to die. I could get it done earlier in the time I blocked out, but it has become less likely that I will be sober).

And finally, I just want to reiterate this point because I still feel like it should come damn close to objectively clearing me:

Given that I got tracked to no one, the objective odds of me being scum are 1/4 as much as the standard player

. If me, Fate, and X are a scumteam, then first X and not me has to be the roleblocker (1/2 odds) and then Fate and not me has to perform the nightkill N1 (1/2 odds). If you honestly believe that my slot's actions make me 4 times as scummy as the next closest player, I can't fault your vote. I can, however, fault the fact that you're an idiot because nobody can ever - and I do mean ever - be that sure of a read based on behavior alone.

[Pie_is_good]

@SK: I think Michel is probably town, but it's not a matter of "accuse him now or forever hold your peace." I don't want you to abandon your town read on him (I'm certainly not going to abandon mine), I just don't want you to take a narrow-minded approach to his alignment. To answer your question "Why does it make sense for Michelscum to bus Fate?," the answer is for the simple reason that it makes townies like you get all uppity in his defense. Stretch? Maybe. But it's plausible, and that's why it's a terrible idea to unnecessarily treat Michel as confirmed.

Re: Odds/Confirmedness: I realize I'm not confirmed in the sense of "0% odds of me being scum." But still - if you had to place money on me or, say, Thor, you'd take me over Thor at 3:1? Frankly, you (and this is directed at everyone in the town) are not good enough at mafia to be that sure of yourself. That's not to say that you're a bad player; I would venture to say that nobody on this site is good enough at mafia to be that sure of themselves. It just takes some kind of unfounded hubris to go after me in the face of that sort of evidence. That's my schpiel.

[Pie_is_good]

I hate to be That Guy, but this weekend is turning out insanely and I can't promise decent content until after Monday. I'll check in when I can. Thor - I realize your question is super outstanding, but unfortunately defending myself in the present takes priority. In the mean time, I would like to say that charter's 1119 is particularly godawful and shows no understanding of the following concepts (in order): Conspiracy Theorist Scumhunting, use of massclaims, probability, and what makes someone cleared. I'm starting to rethink Kerrigan and look at Cyberbob/charter. Call it fatal intuition.

[Pie_is_good]

Could you explain this quote, considering that you recently said you think Michel is likely town?

Difference between "likely town" and "assumed town" is the same as the difference between "town read" and "cleared." I would treat a confirmed townie very differently than someone I just generally didn't want to vote for.

@ Pie: The difference in tone between your posts 1113 and 1117 is considerable. I'm curious to know what inspired you to write 1117 in the tone that you did.

a) My two mafia pet peeves are when people trust their read over hard facts and when people fall into the trap where you read everything your target says as scummy no matter what. Charter managed to trip both of them with that last post.
b) Alcohol

[Pie_is_good]

That was hysterical.

Cyberbob was right in saying that SK is a particularly OMGUSy player; his gut response to any sort of adversity seems to be to call the person scum (and to answer any vaguely testosterone-fueled attacks by calling them scum even more). I would venture to say that doesn't make him scum (it may even be a town read).

Once again, Thor's accusation of Cyberbob trying to trick the town into unwagoning me is absurd. Nobody does that as scum, ever, especially not when the buddy that needs saving is in my position.

I would like to throw this out as an option: because the town has collectively expressed unwillingness to lynch anyone who has ever pushed for the death of scum, perhaps CyberbobScum is trying to score points by fighting against the lynch of a townie that he feels is inevitable.

[Pie_is_good]

The more I think about it, the more I like Cyberbob/charter (Socrates bringing up the rear if I'm wrong). I'd prefer to lynch any of the three, but at this point my vote is going to be on the person who has the most votes who's also not me.

[Pie_is_good]

Last Will and Testament: Nobody is as good at mafia as they think they are, and next time your read on someone comes up against actual concrete info, I hope you choose differently. In the mean time, I'm hoping my fellow townies will posthumously recognize my reads to be at least genuine, and then lynch Charter/Cyberbob (preferably in that order).

Enjoy your few posts of speculation on whether this is a gambit. This town pretty much knows what I think about what's going on, and hey, at least you all massclaimed.

Also, I hear SK wagons are nice this time of year.

[Pie_is_good]

So.. you want Charter and then me to be lynched after today but you also want people on the SK wagon? Yeah okay.

Your objection is noted, but more importantly, I've been wondering lately how the specific combination of Buffalo sauce, chicken, and sandwiches ever came into play. Buffalo sauce is delicious in just about every context imaginable (I had some great Buffalo fries the other week), but chicken sandwiches are typically not that great. Why, then, is the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich unsurpassed by its peers in the sandwich world? The synergy of the ingredients must more than make up for the otherwise subpar nature of a bland chicken sandwich. I find it inspiring, really. The teamwork makes up for any weakness of the individual parts.

[Pie_is_good]

No, that wasn't an attempt at gaining unvotes. I've been a dead man walking since replacing in. I actually just had something I wanted to say before death.

Sorry about the whole thinking you were scum thing.

[Pie_is_good]

Hammer me?? But I thought Hammering was SCUMMY!

Thor: I haven't read Fate. As previously mentioned it wasn't going to happen until tonight, and tonight I may or may not still be alive (so I probably just won't bother).

Seriously, though. When you're the one being mass-attacked, it becomes much easier to tell who really believes what they're saying. Kill Cyberbob and charter.

[Pie_is_good]

Thor: I said many times that the reread wasn't going to happen 'till Tuesday. Come Tuesday, everyone is waiting around for the Pie hammer. Forgive me, but I'm not going to waste an hour of my day rereading when it's not going to change any minds.

Most of my changing reads center around the fact that this particular game has developed a meta where WIFOM hasn't been invented yet. We view it as scummy to hammer, scummy to vote for townies, and clearing to cast an unprovoked vote for scum. This, of course, is horribly stupid, but any scum in their right mind would take advantage of it.

I don't think SKscum would be as willing to bitchfight with me or Cyberbob (unless SK/Cyberbob is a team) as he was. I say this because if/when either of us flip town, by this town's dynamic it would make him look terrible. SKscum would likely avoid the situation or conduct a gentler attack.

Cyberbob, meanwhile, hops off the Pie wagon as soon as my lynch looks inevitable. He conducts a purposefully silly attack on SK to justify dropping his vote there. That makes me think: it's not like SK did anything that overshadowed me in Cyberbob's mind; he probably just wanted to unassociate himself with the Pie wagon. The most likely reason for this is that association with townie death in this town is considered scummy, and he knows I'm about to flip town, and so he's scum.

Charter is smarter than his vote would suggest. I've gotten the sense that he's a decent player, but when I've suggested that I should be unvoted due to objective concerns (the track), he threw a bit of a controlled hissy fit. When scum smell townie blood, they typically get actively annoyed when the wagon starts to die, and that's what I see going on here.

I've explained why I think Thor is town, and me thinking Michel is town is fairly uncontroversial.

This leaves Socrates (very possibly scum due to his predecessor) and Copper (effectively cleared by gunsmith).

That clear enough?

[Pie_is_good]

I would rather lynch SK than myself or Thor. If anyone votes you or charter or Socrates I will gladly switch my vote (unless SK gets more votes in the meantime).

[Pie_is_good]

Man, I think the town's lucky it came out with a draw on that one - we were outplayed from start to finish. Props to SPS for overcoming two fairly scummy predecessors and making it to endgame.