Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm greetings to all. Troll will be taking a look at this game more closely this afternoon. This post just be to let all know that Troll will be about.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I'm just done with an unexpectedly pleasant (if internet-free) weekend. I'll take a look at where we are when I get done teaching today and have some input.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll must say that Troll has no trouble at all with someone casting a vote Troll's way based on what Troll has done thus far this game (i.e. nothing at all useful.) Troll has twice now said that Troll will post at some time and failed to follow up. In fact, that be all that Troll has put into the game. That be pretty unacceptable and a decent thing to watch to make sure scum no can get away with.

Having said that, Troll has been away from all of Troll's games in this span so Troll does hope that getting into the game and being a part of it should offset that quickly enough. Troll had expected that Troll would be joining this game later on in the process when Troll had a bit more time to be about but that no was what happened.

And unfortunately this no will be the post where Troll starts to provide any content. The start to the week was much less pleasant than the weekend though also largely internet free. If Troll no has time to get into this game by tomorrow Troll will need to request a replacement. Troll very much hopes that no will be the case.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

That Nobody Special thing be most odd. Troll no be sure what to make of it but Troll must say that Ythan no was crossing any sort of bounds when him pointed out that posts were happening elsewhere but not here.

@Ythan, Troll no has any problem with TheCheshireCat's case on Troll in and of itself (that was part of what Troll was trying to say with Troll's last post.) Troll's player spot no had added anything to the game up till then and putting some pressure on that sort of perceived lurking be fine. As TheCheshireCat just has one vote to use and did ask about Sajin directly after Troll no be too troubled by the selectivity. Having said that, looking through what TheCheshireCat has done for the game in general Troll starts to find it less impressive. For one who asserts that she be scum hunting it be curious that lack of activity be the best thing that she has found.

Ah, and Cooper seems to have posted while Troll was typing this with a similar observation.

@Sotty7, Troll has some experience with SFG (we played in one game together and Troll modded another she was in.) She was town both times and ended up being under a fair amount of pressure (certainly much more than she ever came under here.) She do be somewhat schizophrenic about her self-evaluations on how she reacts to pressure but Troll no thinks that the minor pressure she was under here would be a cause for her to replace out no matter what her alignment was. The two game thing be a bit suspect as a reason to replace out but Troll would guess that she simply no was happy with the way this game was playing is a more likely reason for replacing out.

@Thor665, Troll no has any particular issue with Ythan voting and then unvoting RayFrost. The vote him had previously on InquisitorJL no was doing much of anything so the vote for RayFrost was a move that be fine (the reasons weren't impressive but day one reasons no need to be ironclad.) The move to Nobody Special be something Troll did like well enough after though Ythan not knowing where his vote was later be a bit dicey. Hmm, and later Troll sees that Ythan says that him thinks that Nobody Special is scum rather than thinking that him might be scum. That no fits that well. Perhaps Troll has more of an issue than Troll thought.

@TheCheshireCat, Post 277 was made directly after the whole ScramblesTheDeathDealer not voting for Nobody Special despite him having said Nobody Special was likely to be scum whether RayFrost flipped town or scum discussion. You no seem to have mentioned that at all despite it being one of the most interesting things that Troll has seen happen all game. That be particularly fascinating given that ScramblesTheDeathDealer was probably the player you had talked about and responded to the most previous to that. Do you have an opinion about what him did there one way or the other?

Now that Troll has read through the game and given some thought Troll supposes that Troll's top suspects among the active be ScramblesTheDeathDealer, TheCheshireCat and Ythan. Thor665 probably be getting too much credit from some for simply being active (scum in his position no would have any reason not to) but Troll no finds his behavior scummy. It feels like Cooper could likely be more of a driving force for the town should him choose to be; Troll likes much of what him has to say about the flow of the game and what we should be doing (though the manner be a bit brusque from time to time) and him does seem to be looking at interesting issues when him no be distracted by things like Ythan's play. Troll no has a strong feeling one way or another on RayFrost at this time. Nobody Special be an OK lynch right now but Troll be more inclined to wait and see what a replacement will have to say about the game.

The rest of the players do seem to be contributing less than Troll would want for a good read. For the most part Troll be happy with the content Troll has seen just not the quantity of it.

Vote: TheCheshireCat

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Thor665, Troll no has any trouble with stronger than reasonable reads. Troll sees town give those all the time and has no trouble believing that this be Ythan's play style. The trouble Troll has with the read in this particular case be the combination of it being strong and him forgetting who him was voting for. The confusing games bit be something to take into account but a strong read should very much cut down on that as a possibility.

Troll tends to agree that the general environment in this game does lend itself to finding play like yours even more brilliant than it be on it's own. Troll's comment about that was mostly just to acknowledge that people were attributing pro-town to activity when Troll no thinks that be a particularly pro-town thing on it's own. Troll knows that Troll personally has played most active scum games in the past when it suited Troll. It be one of those things that people think means more than Troll thinks it actually does.

@RayFrost, why on Earth would you be listing Troll in your town read category at this time? Troll has made a total of one meaningful post all game. Troll could see a neutral read if you thought it was fine. Troll could see a scum read if you no liked it (especially coupled with the general lack of presence otherwise.) Troll no sees how you should feel that your read on Troll be good enough to get pro-town from just that though.

@Pomegranate, what exactly did you have in mind in the way of a scum list from Troll? Troll's second to last paragraph was intended to give Troll's thoughts on those Troll suspected most at this time:

Now that Troll has read through the game and given some thought Troll supposes that Troll's top suspects among the active be ScramblesTheDeathDealer, TheCheshireCat and Ythan. Thor665 probably be getting too much credit from some for simply being active (scum in his position no would have any reason not to) but Troll no finds his behavior scummy. It feels like Cooper could likely be more of a driving force for the town should him choose to be; Troll likes much of what him has to say about the flow of the game and what we should be doing (though the manner be a bit brusque from time to time) and him does seem to be looking at interesting issues when him no be distracted by things like Ythan's play. Troll no has a strong feeling one way or another on RayFrost at this time. Nobody Special be an OK lynch right now but Troll be more inclined to wait and see what a replacement will have to say about the game.

Does it just be that it no was in a list form that Pomegranate be objecting to here or was there more that Pomegranate expected?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Kthxbye, Troll gives warm welcome. Your question to Thor665 be important enough that Troll will give an answer to it before him has a chance. This Thread be specifically about these sorts of issues as them come up in newbie games using the F11 setup but pretty much everything that be discussed there applies here as well.

Town roles claiming Vanilla Townie when it no be needed does hurt the town. If it be the truth then it helps the scum narrow in on potential power roles. If it be a lie then it be likely to get a power role lynched if a true claim is needed later.

Unless someone be about to be lynched or them have a power role with information that will help the town win there should be no claims. If someone is about to be lynched then the claim shouldn't save them in most cases; it just be made so that the town has full information before the player is eliminated and can no longer share any results. We can discuss the particulars of that last bit in more depth if and when it comes up but for now it would just be a distraction in a game which has already had too many.

We should also at this point stop talking about any soft claiming of any roles that might or might not have happened. There be no need to focus on the power roles and who might have them day one. Them will almost never have had a chance to do anything that benefits the town and whatever we do that helps the scum find them in any way hurts. If someone chooses to make soft claims or breadcrumb then there be no reason to point these things out at this time.

TL;DR

: The mafia has more information about the setup than the town already. We shouldn't make it easier for them to figure out the rest of it by talking about roles on day one when it no be needed.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@RayFrost, the most recent vote count be on the last page. It no should be that hard to find.

@Ythan, if you feel that reads be hard to come by thus far in the game do you have any plans to take actions to make them easier? Apparently the methods you have been using up to now no have given the results Troll assumes you want outside of your obvscum read on Kthxbye (your explanations of which Troll does, for the record, find unsatisfactory, though that no be what Troll be interested in just now.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Ythan, that no actually answers the question that Troll asked. Regardless of your practice with various techniques that you might have used in other games do you have any plans to take actions designed to make the reads easier for you?

@RayFrost, the cases on Ythan vary though Troll no be opposed overly to his lynch regardless of the reasons others have given as of just now. Troll be mulling a thing or two now about Ythan at this time and will probably have a more satisfying stance in a bit.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Ythan how does that be you taking actions to make the reads easier for you rather than just taking advantage of what others be doing? If this explosion of posts no had happened would you have tried something else or do you think that the post explosion be a result of your actions?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Ythan, Troll would have been willing to work with whatever interpretation of the or you had gone with for Troll's second sentence but if you like Troll will ask it as two questions instead.

If the recent explosion of posts no had happened would you have tried something that you no have been doing thus far this game to help with your reads?

Do you feel that you be responsible for the recent post explosion?

As another question, why do you think that you be more likely to get a read from this batch of posts (which you seem to consider low content if Troll be making sense of your complaints to others) when you haven't been able to get more than the one on Nobody Special/Kthxbye up till then?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Ythan, does there be a reason that you no have tried to do something new up until now in this game when you be getting so little in the way of reads? If making changes when your system no has worked do be the way to go in just the sort of state we have been in why didn't they get made?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Ythan, how is that a reason not to have changed rather than a reason to make a change?


And actually, you can answer that if you think that the answer will add anything new to the discussion but otherwise there be no good reason to. Troll has enough of a feel for the position you be trying to stake out here for now Troll thinks. Troll will think a bit.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm welcome to CSL and Locke Lamora.

Troll be a bit preoccupied with another game just now so Troll will be getting to this one in a more reasonable way in a bit. For now Troll will share a few quick thoughts.

Copper (and Troll apologizes for saying Cooper earlier) be right that it be a bit surprising how quickly TheCheshireCat has gotten to L-2. When Troll was deciding how to vote between TheCheshireCat, Ythan and ScramblesTheDeathDealer Troll spent a while thinking which of the three to go with. That time spent no particularly showed up as the one vote in Troll's post and in fact Troll deleted a sentence or two giving the reasons Troll eventually decided on on the grounds that Troll wanted to see who would ask Troll for them (no one apparently. What be curious here though be how quickly the two new replacement seem to have come to the same conclusions (and them both be basing it on actions that happened that Troll was looking at so far as Troll can tell.)

Troll was pretty ready to switch over to a Ythan vote before the replacement issue came up. Despite what him had to say about it him was at least as responsible as anyone else for the game getting mired in the sort of nonsense that it was. Further, him recognized that it was happening and was doing nothing to prevent it; the onus for having a productive game seemed to be on the shoulders of others. That no be how town should approach the situation. Add in the hypocrisy that Troll saw and there wasn't much reason not to eliminate Ythan as someone who had at least as good a chance as many to be scum and was more likely to hurt the town with his presence than most even if him was town. Now that Locke Lamora be in the game in his stead Troll be willing to give him some rope to see what him does with it.

@TheCheshireCat, why didn't you have anything to say about ScramblesTheDeathDealer's stance on Nobody Special? You had plenty to say about him earlier and that was certainly something noteworthy in the game.

Troll knows that some have trouble understanding what Troll says at times but your interpretation of Troll's question be pretty interesting. Troll no made any mention of better candidates or even your vote at all for that matter. Troll had explicitly said that Troll was a pretty reasonable person to vote for at that point in the game. Why did you think Troll was questioning your reasons for that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Oh, and TL;DR means Too Long; Didn't Read. When people put it at the end of their posts it be a way of summarizing what they said without all the details them used to make their case (or the tangents if them got sidetracked.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm welcome to Henry Hathaway. Troll be impressed(?) that you can make a vote that quickly. Troll wonders if you have any thoughts on other players you might be interested in sharing? Does it matter to you that TheCheshireCat really hasn't been around to squirm under the pressure of her wagon?

After giving it a bit of thought Troll now be less concerned by the fact that the TheCheshireCat wagon grew as quickly as it did than Troll was initially. Troll remembered that scum probably wouldn't have any reason not to bus in this case if she do be scum.

The biggest thing that Troll dislikes about the Kthxbye wagon at this point no be the reasons for disliking his play (or Nobody Special's before him.) Rather it be the people who be on the wagon (you'd just have to add TheCheshireCat and Kthxbye himself for it to be Troll's top list of likely scum.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Henry Hathaway, hmm, would you be willing to outline your theory in a bit more detail than that? Troll no can tell who's play being involved/uninvolved you be considering here. Troll could speculate some but in order to evaluate how reasonable your argument be it would be much simpler to have you explain it in a bit more detail.

Also, Troll would still like to hear more in the way of thoughts on other players. If you've read the thread then Troll assumes you must have some. It seems unlikely that you only be looking at the current major wagons as potential places to put your vote but perhaps you'd like to correct a misconception on Troll's part about that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Henry Hathaway, more specific than who else you found noteworthy during your read through? Not just now. Troll would like to hear who you feel is worth commenting about and why without influencing the choice you make overly. Troll would like to see your answer to Thor665's question which seems specific enough to Troll.

Troll does be interested in how important you think it is to avoid looking scummy due to WIFOM (or anything else that might come up over the course of scum hunting you might choose to do.) How important is not looking scummy to you?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Henry Hathaway, the trouble Troll has with that approach to the game (and Troll suspects that you will hear others that share this) be that it does nothing to either help find scum and get them into a position where them can be lynched or give the rest of us any good read on your intentions. Does there be any reason that Troll should think that you no should be scum if you followed the strategy you be putting forth there?

Also, does there be a reason that you continue not to answer Thor665's question? What is it about squirming when under pressure that makes someone more likely to be scum?

On a semi-related note Troll wonders what your experience with mafia as a forum based game has been. You no have played much here based on the post count Troll gets from your profile. Do you have experience elsewhere that you could share with us? You seem to have an understanding of how some things work but not what be expected of play at this site and it would be helpful to see what you be used to.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Henry Hathaway, OK, Troll can see where you be coming from then. Troll appreciates your zealousness and hopes that you find your mafia experiences both enjoyable and enlightening as you start playing what Troll thinks be a most worthy game (mafia in general, though Troll hopes this particular game will move in that direction as well.)

Contrary to what you seem to expect, Troll's experience be that scum be more likely to be inactive than active. Though the alignment comes up less frequently than town it be a good scum strategy to lay low if you can get away with it. When people say things them have the opportunity to make mistakes. If scum no have to say much then them no will have as many chances to incriminate themselves. Lurkers be a fairly major problem in this game in particular and it would be shocking to Troll if we no found at least one scum among those who have posted least thus far.

Troll tends to think that towns that work together and actively pursue leads that make sense be the ones that have the most success. There do be things that be worth keeping to yourself (e.g. anything that hints at someone being a power role) but for the most part if you share what you find suspicious about the play of others it gives the town a chance to evaluate your motives and to see things that them might not have picked up on their own.

Clearly you should develop your own play style. Troll if anything, despite the role playing, be a fairly traditional player. There do be approaches other than Troll's that will work well. Having said that Troll finds that it be easier to find scum overall when everyone be taking an active part in the game and pointing out what no fits with what them expect to see from town in a given game.

So given all of that Troll would still love to hear what your thoughts are about the various players in the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Henry Hathaway, also, do you have a preferred gender for pronouns when people speak of you? Troll likes to use the terms people would rather be referred to as and your user name and your avatar give Troll conflicting ideas of what you might prefer.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Henry Hathaway, Newbie Game 864 was be an example of a game where both of the scum largely lurked through being lynched if Troll recalls correctly. Troll has certainly seen it happen. Perhaps Troll should let others weigh in on how likely that be though. Certainly there be opinions other than Troll's that be valid about this issue.

Regarding the pronouns there will be times when Troll will want to refer to things you have done and it will be handy to use one or the other. If you no have a preference then Troll will pick one when it comes up the first time and not worry about it overly.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Copper, Troll be a bit surprised that you no be more critical of Troll at this point. Troll certainly still be on the TheCheshireCat wagon and given that you have pointed them out you clearly be aware of things that Troll has said that could be taken to justify a bad wagon just based on loose theory rather than particulars. Why isn't Troll getting more pressure for those stances from you?

Does the fact that the late wagoners included two replacements who cast their votes that way quickly change anything in your calculations. Troll feels that much of the argument that you be making would apply more strongly if the players in question had been in the game and had a chance to give more opinions prior to the vote but perhaps you no feel that be the case.

Have any of the heads of your hydra had experience playing with CSL? Troll no minds the vote you be casting but Troll be curious if it be cast with any knowledge of his meta.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Copper, that be a bit more of what Troll expected from you. What was it that made you think that Troll's initial vote for TheCheshireCat over ScramblesTheDeathDealer or Ythan was justified? Troll was pretty up in the air about which of them would be the best place to put the vote at the time. For Troll to change Troll's vote now wouldn't Troll need to think that someone else was a better choice? That be more the way that Troll operates when a vote be in play than thinking that Troll needs to continue to think that the current vote be explicitly better than any other. Barring some contribution from that spot that Troll likes or something from another spot Troll particularly dislikes Troll no sees why Troll should be moving Troll's vote unless it be to prevent a no lynch.

Troll does agree with Copper to some degree about the way the votes be flowing to Pomegranate now. We be nearing a deadline and given the timing of the switches she seems at least as likely to be scum bait as actually scum to Troll. Troll no be opposed to her lynch but at this point if Troll were to be a part of it it would just be because a Pomegranate lynch would be better than a no lynch. The timing of the pressure no impresses Troll at all.

Everyone else's experiences with CSL seem to be different than Troll's. Troll played with him in Newbie Game 852 where him was town and his most distinctive trait was a lack of presence. Could someone with experience with him as active town provide Troll a link to a game to glance over?

Thor665's newbie read on Henry Hathaway be one Troll shares. Troll was assuming Troll would get more out of it as there was more play to look at but there seems to have been a tapering off.

Charter's entrance seems just on par with what Troll expects of him. Troll will need to see more before forming a strong opinion but Troll expects this will happen so Troll no be worried about it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Sotty7, the game Troll played with CSL was the one Troll linked to in Troll's last post, Newbie Game 852.

@Copper, it was you (well one at least one of you) that pointed out the things Troll had said that would make the wagon on TheCheshireCat still potentially scummy. Troll thinks that it be entirely possible that scum who had just replaced in thought that it would be better to get on the scum wagon that was most likely to at that point to end in a lynch rather than waiting and missing the chance to bus and get any cred that comes with it. That would make the most likely scum on the wagon Locke Lamora or CSL, though Kthxbye's vote be an odd one.

It do be somewhat interesting to Troll that you seem to think that looking for scum pairings this early be a dubious thing and also ask those who be voting for TheChesireCat to do exactly that.

Re: Kthxbye's current hammer stance. Troll finds it slightly alarming but it looks more like bad play than scummy play and the rate we be going at it might get more necessary than it should be.

Re: Wagons Troll would be willing to get on. Troll would be willing to go with any of TheCheshireCat, CSL or Pomegranate at this point. Them be the closest things to viable that be of interest and that be the order Troll would pick. Pomegranate still feels more like a wagon that be put out there as a scum-bait alternative that be there because we have been too indecisive as a town and no be taking care of business. Even so it clearly be a much better choice than a no lynch, there be little that we would need to preserve about her play and those on it certainly feel better to Troll than those that were on the Kthxbye wagon.

@Henry Hathaway, what happened to the catching up tonight that you planned to do?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

At this point a Pomegranate lynch do be the pretty clear alternative to a no lynch and clearly it be the better choice. Troll believes Troll's vote makes this L-1 and that there be just about exactly 12 hours to go now.

@Thor665, Troll's preference for CSL was based on the timing of his TheCheshireCat vote and the timing of the Pomegranate wagon. It no was a hugely strong preference but the convenience factors seemed to indicate that it was a slightly better way to go.

Unovte. Vote: Pomegranate

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The night kill speculation here be interesting. It would be somewhat useful at this point to know who makes up the hydra that be Copper but regardless Troll has the impression that the heads be experienced enough to know that the opening that was made to today would draw attention. If Copper be scum him then be drawing attention to his play that him would probably have to think that him could mitigate through further play but Troll no sees a great reason to think that this be a productive way for scum to act.

Troll assumes that others take the night kills into account even if it no be acceptable to talk about them in most games. As the topic has been breached Troll will say that the Henry Hathaway kill (a lurker who wasn't under serious pressure and also seemed somewhat likely to be replaced at some point) be the sort of kill that Troll would expect scum to make if them felt them were in a good position themselves or if them no wanted to draw attention to the more active/obv-town players. For now Troll no be interested in drawing too many conclusions from a single event but it reminds Troll very much of Troll's first game as scum (Newbie Game 683 where the scum team was in no danger and it was useful to avoid a likely replacement for a given player slot.)

The questions about why Fate chose the player spot him did to replace into is probably fair. Troll no thinks that it will reveal alignments but it do be interesting for the purposes of motivation (and Fate's position seems to be that him had no interest in replacing into a spot that looked like it was scum which Troll can live with even if it no be what Troll would necessarily pick if Troll were replacing in.)

Fate's stance on Socrates be a bit off Troll thinks. Him should probably be more interested in lynching scum whereas the helpfulness of a player if them be town or scum seems like a distraction.

Troll will be interested to see what Socrates has to say about various people after him dons his serious pants. Thus far him seems mostly to be focused on reactions to what people be saying about his play and (should Troll be overly concerned about charter's take on the game) what Copper be doing.

@Locke Lamora, you seem to Troll to have been focused on a few players in particular this day. Does that seem accurate to you? Why haven't you cast a vote yet?

@Thor665, your interest in Troll's suspicions yesterday seemed to perhaps involve some confusion in your part between TheCheshireCat and Pomegranate. Troll's preference for TheCheshireCat was in part a reluctance to change votes when there no be a good reason to and in part because there was really no good reason to think that TheCheshireCat was town but there was an interesting move away from her lynch happening. Pomegranate on the other hand seemed like a lynch that was settled on because no one really opposed it.

Vote: Socrates

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

There do be a couple things for Troll to talk about at this time. This be to acknowledge that them be there but to let you know that Troll no will have a chance to do so until this evening or more likely tomorrow afternoon.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll never did get around to apologizing to all in this thread for Troll's disappearance. It was most unseemly of Troll to need to be replaced like that. Troll had trouble getting a grip on this game from the get go for whatever reason and then life blew up and Troll no could make it on in any games here at Mafia Scum.

Troll did enjoy the flavor and no really has any problem with the setup (Troll dislikes ties much less than many others it would seem.) Thanks for the modding Col.Cathart and great work keeping the game going!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh