Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

I'll start reading the thread and get started on my game notes shortly. It might take me a day or two to get fully up to speed but I'll chime in as soon as I can.

Meanwhile:

Unvote.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I've read the thread and will do so again, but for now I'll just post the short version of my initial reads because the men's Olympic hockey game between Canada and the U.S. is

going to start any minute and I cannot miss that

on and I'm continuing during the intermission between the second and third periods.

My scum reads are Cruelty, Zang, Vivi and Jack.

Agar: He didn't post much and what he did post had very little substance. He was replaced by Leaf

who hasn't posted yet. Neutral at present.

Leaf's entrance looks good so far. Shift to the right.

Cruelty: Exhibits all kinds of scummy behaviour from lack of participation, dodgy votes without reasons, promising things and not delivering, wishy washy stances, fence-sitting, disappearing for several days after saying he would up his activity, etc. Scummy. (Also, I've played one game with him before and he looked scummy to me then, and turned out to be town, but his behaviour in this game is more egregious than it was in that game).

Fat Tony: He replaced ConfidAnon, whose posts did not inspire at all, but I quite like the cut of Tony's jib as he provides thorough examination and excellent analysis that appears forthright and honest.

Jack: I'm not enamoured of his softclaiming cop, milking it for all it’s worth with a lose/lose/lose scenario, then on Day 2 claiming it was all a joke. This is particularly bad because by soft claiming cop, he has deliberately drawn a possible protective role to himself, leaving a real cop (if we have one) exposed to being NKed. It just doesn't get any more selfish than that. That and the emotional claptrap on Day 2 don’t sit well at all.

StrangerCougar: I've played with SC several times, and with my initial skim, I thought his posts seemed a bit fluffy but reading the thread more thoroughly, he looks more like the town-SC that I’m used to than the scum-SC I've played with before. He’s active, engaged, posts from the hip; this doesn't look like the more calculated/calculating posts of scum-SC.

Vivi: She's setting my scumdar on edge. After her random vote, she disappeared for 4 days, saying she “forgot” about the game. I find that hard to believe. How does one "forget" their first and only game? Since then, she seems to show up once every two to three days (more often three) with very little content. Newbie or not, something rankles about this pattern because it looks like she’s just trying to post the minimum to avoid being prodded but remain out of the fray of any potential controversy.

Zang: I found myself going back and forth on Zang as I initially read through the game, sometimes thinking Newbtown, sometimes thinking Newbscum. I agree with much that has been said about him, and although I didn't get a strong "die, scum, die" pang from him initially, I do find his wagonhopping, his waffling, and his lack of defence more indicative of scum than town.

Zhero: Reasonably active, nothing showstopping but nothing scummy. Neutral/slight town.

More after the game.

Go, Canada, go!

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Bah. Canada lost. It looks like it's going to be left up to our women's hockey team to kick butt - again.

So, back to the game. Although Zang is among my scum reads, the problem I have is that two of my other scum reads (Cruelty and Vivi) are on his wagon, and that gives me pause.

Thus, I would prefer a Cruelty lynch over a Zang lynch at present. However, we have lots of time to talk things through so I suggest that we do that.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hello? Is anyone still playing this game?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

don't have much to say to you (you find me scummy, how surprising), can't really defend vague accusations.

Yeah, when you exhibit scummy play, it shouldn't be too surprising that others find you scummy. And the accusations against you aren't vague, but specific: "Cruelty: Exhibits all kinds of scummy behaviour from lack of participation, dodgy votes without reasons, promising things and not delivering, wishy washy stances, fence-sitting, disappearing for several days after saying he would up his activity, etc. Scummy."

That you pretend otherwise is another point against you.

And yes, it does sometimes matter to me who is on a wagon; e.g.: if that wagon includes more than one player who I have a scummy read on, it gives me pause. I agree that it isn't necessarily the strongest tool in the arsenal, but it's a tool nonetheless.

I also note that Zang hasn't posted anything at all in his own defence since being put at L-1 several real life days ago. Now, he did say that he would have limited access for a week, but that was 8 days ago and since his last post in this game four days ago, he has posted in another game and he has posted multiple edits to his Wiki.

That's another point against him.

I don't want to end the day, though, if there are outstanding responses/questions/observations that anyone wants to make, and if Zang is genuinely afk.

Vote: Cruelty

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Just a quick note as I have to leave for work in a minute. I remain suspicious of Cruelty, Vivi and Jack but we are probably in LyLo so I'm going to have to reread and review everyone.

@Tony, we don't know for certain that there are three mafia but that's the most likely scenario in a 12 player game, and in light of the flips we've had so far, I think we should assume that to be the case and proceed with appropriate caution.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Sorry for my lack of activity the last two days; I was busy with my daughter's birthday and work and other stuff. But I've got lots of time now that it's the weekend to finish any remaining re-reads. I'm still most suspicious of cruelty, though.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

We're in a tough position here because we're in LyLo with (probably) three scum alive, so I think it's fear of being wrong that has kind of ground this game to a halt. But I've re-read the entire game several times now and I still find cruelty to be my strongest scum read, so I'm going to stop being fearful of being wrong and go ahead and vote.

Vote: cruelty

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Also, to address some recent posts, I don't see how massclaiming would be of benefit at this stage. We've had a boatload of flips already who have all been town and several have been power roles. I think that any power roles we have left would have claimed if they had useful information to provide, since we're likely in LyLo, so I don't see any useful purpose being served by exposing any such roles at this point.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Still think Cruelty is scum, even more so now that Zang flipped town. That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting. Jack's point above is a good one as well.

Leaf and Tony were on both lynch wagons as well, but Tony wasn't at all shy about acknowledging that, so I'm sticking with my town read on him.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

Deadline is March 31, why are you in such a hurry?

Coming from the guy who pushed one townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "what the ****, I'm in" and who pushed a second townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "stagnation", you'll have to forgive me if I find your post above rather lacking.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

The forum seems to be acting up, as I've been trying to post this for about an hour and a half now with no luck. I'll try again but if it doesn't go through, I'll probably give up for this evening and try again in the morning before I leave for work.

Your above quote implies disagreement with me. That is, you're advocating a quick lynch here in a situation you acknowledge is probably lylo.

I'm not advocating a quicklynch at all. My above quote to which you refer was to point out your hypocrisy. There is absolutely no danger of a quicklynch here if you are scum - as I think you are - and the fact that one has not occurred supports my scum read on you.

Justifying pushing someone to a potential scumhammer situation with "oh he did it too" is not good, especially when we are at lylo. Jazz only stated that cruelty was her strongest read, not that she was in any way sure of his alignment. Since we have time, why vote so early, jazz? Actually, Jack's reasoning isn't much better.

I'm not voting cruelty because of "oh he did it too" - I'm voting cruelty because he is the player whom I feel most strongly is scum. I thought so when I replaced into the game and I continue to think so now, and nothing that he has said or done in the interim has mitigated my scum read on him.

What are you talking about when you refer to being "sure of his alignment"? Of course, I can't be "sure" because I can only rely upon my reads on players, and I'm far from infallible. Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with voting for a player without being "sure" of his alignment? If so, you have some explaining to do about being on both townie lynch wagons.

Also, Leaf, you were asked five days ago who your suspects are now, but you didn't answer.

Please do so.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

The forum seems to be acting up, as I've been trying to post this for about an hour and a half now with no luck. I'll try again but if it doesn't go through, I'll probably give up for this evening and try again in the morning before I leave for work.

EBWOP: Success! So disregard that part.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Leaf

I can't quite parse your post 669, as when I use the quote function, it comes out all disjointed and without the proper boxes and such, but you seem to be harbouring the mistaken belief that I’m voting for cruelty because of "oh, he did it too" but that’s not accurate. I have stated my reasons for thinking that cruelty is scum, as have others, and he has just shrugged them off. Moreover, he's done virtually no scumhunting, nothing to dispel the suspicions on him, and very little to participate meaningfully in the game. That just reinforces my strong scum read on him. I don’t understand your distinction between him being my strongest scum read and him being scum: to me, they are the same thing, and you are making a distinction without a difference. As I said previously: "I'm voting cruelty because he is the player whom I feel most strongly is scum. I thought so yesterday and I continue to think so today, and nothing that he has said or done in the interim has mitigated my read on him."

I also can't make sense of your "overexplanation" bit because, well, it doesn't make any sense. Do you want to try again? You claimed that there is something wrong with me not being "sure" of cruelty's alignment. You then concede that "of course" there is no way that I could be sure about his alignment, but then you go on to repeat that there’s something wrong with me not being sure. I simply cannot make sense of this. If you have some way of being sure of cruelty’s alignment that the rest of us don’t have, please share it.

I also can't make any sense of your unfounded allegation that I've lied about reading the game thread several times. I have indeed read it several times.

The bit about you not being on the first townie mislynch wagon is disingenuous. You are also the player you replaced. In my game notes (spreadsheets, actually, colour coded and all), when a player replaces in, I put the new player's name at the top of the column for the previous player but everywhere else in the spreadsheet, I change all instances of the prior player's name to the new player's name because that's the best way to keep track of things and because, in my view, nobody gets a clean slate just because they replace in. I'm stuck with replacing Sir Cyanide in this game just as you're stuck with replacing Agar. So, the reality is that you were on both town mislynch wagons, whether you like it or not.

Further, you claimed to be so sure that Zang was scum that you hammered him with a flippant comment in response to his lengthy response to a post of yours without addressing the content, and ending the day without further discussion despite there being no looming deadline at the time, and you started this Day by voting for Jack in your first post, so you're being hypocritical when you criticize others for casting a couple of votes upon the player whom they most strongly suspect to be scum nearly a week into this Day.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Woot! I didn't get a chance to log in this morning before work and when I logged in just now, I was very pleasantly surprised to see that the game had ended with a flawless scum win! Way to go, team!

Good game, all!

@Vivi and Zhero: High fives, partners, and well done! Sure, we got a bit of suspicion tossed at us late in LyLo, but nothing significant before that and by then it was too little, too late. So, great job!

@Town: I was a bit surprised that nobody attempted to hold me accountable in any way for my predecessor's horribly scummy play. Don't get me wrong: I'm glad you didn't since I was scum, but I really didn't expect to get such a clean slate handed to me after his egregiously awful play. But then, thinking about it as time went on during the game, I came to think that it was probably because his play was SO outlandish that I was given that clean slate. Is that what happened?

@StrangerCougar: You weren't our first choice for NKing on Night 2 and none of us suspected that you were a town PR. We were actually going to target Leaf but then changed our minds and I tossed out your name as a next choice for NK and we went with it, but not because anyone thought you were a PR, so you did a good job of concealing that.

@Cruelty: Sorry, friend. Of course, I knew you were town since I was scum and since Vivi had tracked you on Night 1, but I couldn't possibly resist using your anti-town play against you in the circumstances. [And to answer something that you said in one of your posts, no, I absolutely do not have any personal dislike for you whatsoever. I don't know you beyond the one game that we played previously (in which we were both town and thought that other was scum) and this one, so I don't know why you have that impression, but please be assured that it's not the case at all.]

@Fat Tony: I thought you played a really good game. I actually found myself feeling a little, teensy tiny bit bad about deceiving you - I have no idea why that is.

@Jack: Your pseudo cop claim on Day 1 was most interesting, and it kept us (the scum team) jailkeeping you even though there was, in fact, no cop in the game, so that was most interesting, indeed.

And last but not least:
@Wickedestjr: Thank you for hosting this game. It was a lot of fun.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Personally, I think it's highly inappropriate for a player who was forcibly replaced for bad play to even be posting here in the post-game.

That's all I'll say about that.

Regards,
Jazz