Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Leafsnail]

Ok, reading up now. Should have everything read in a couple of days. From what I've read so far, Zang needs death, though.

[Leafsnail]

Oh, right.

Unvote

.

[Leafsnail]

Ok, I've now read through the entire thread. I'll post my notes below (note I got bored towards the end and started writing less and less, as I felt my suspicions had been laid down). I will summarise them here:

Zang is newbscum. Almost certain. Newbtown does not skulk, ask useless questions and bandwagon like that. He is also ridiculously self preserving at times. Vivi and Quin are more what I'd read as newbtown. I am prepared to end the day with a Zang lynch if noone has any serious objections.

Coug is most likely his partner. He was strangely reluctant to vote him on day 1, and I think he deserves a lot of scrutiny if Zang flips mafia. He also has a consistent refusal to commit, and his reasons for coming off previously strongly held convictions are poor.

SIR CYANIDE was probably scum. He deflected all over the place, and dropped accusations on Quin for no real reason. He also deflected and posted irrelevancies a lot. I am also slightly curious as to why he wasn't modkilled along with Quin.

Fat_Tony and Jack are on and off for me. Fat_Tony started off poorly, but got a bit better later. Jack hung back from Zang strangely, but some of his other posts make me think town. His apathy looks relatively genuine, too.

Cruelty... actually looks more town to me. His frustration at the end of day 1 seems legitimate, and I don't see Refuge in Audacity there. He made some good points early on too, although he seems to have given up somewhat recently.

Vivi reads newbtown to me. She seems to be attempting to find scum, albeit not terribly effectively, and I don't see her trying to self preserve in any way.

Which leaves Zhero, who I am leaning slightly town on, in spite of some lapses in behaviour.

There are my views. My notes on the game are below:

Leafsnail's Random Notes on Wickedestjr's Mafia
13 - Game starts
24 - Jack softclaims cop... what?
26 and 31 - WIFOM from Quin (26 and 31)
32 - PaltryExcuse with worryingly noncommital attack on Jack and Quin post
Discussion about Jack's claim follows (Buttonman explains logic behind investigating townies)
40 - StrangerCoug Possibly overstated attack on Quin. Also an attempt to excuse self with meta?
42 - AGar "I'm here" and with meta vote and slight attack on Jack.
43 - Interesting ideas from Jack, although I'd have to disagree. Scum probably wouldn't ask to be scanned since, y'know, they'd come up guilty.
44 - Zhero attacks and defends Jack in the same post?!
46 - OMGUS on StrangerCoug and OMGFoS on paltryexcuse.
More arguing about cops and inspections follows
52 - More distracting talk from SIR CYANIDE. Odd.
54 - Weird speculation from Jack, but decent case against SirCyanide.
56 - Apparent self contradiction from SIR CYANIDE. I would like clarification.
59 - Explains non vote for SIR CYANIDE
64 - DEFLECTION from Cyan. Again.
68 - Insults, deflection from SC...
70 - Zang - net cast far too wide. Siding with SC. Probscum.
73 - Something about ConfidAnon's attack on Jack bothers me.
77 - Quin votes Cyan
82 - Zang refuses to take a stance again
89 - Zang makes Odd vote on Cyan. Still probscum.
Jack vs SIR CYANIDE... hmm. Looks sorta like town fight.
137 - Cyan with interesting point v Jack
Arguments about rolefishing
146 - Jack votes Coug for lying about ISO?
150 - Lazy bandwagon from Zang
151 - Coug votes Jack for OMGUS
155 - Jack attacks Coug for being off the ball
Arguing between Jack and Coug. Coug comes off worse, imo.
161 - OMGUSy logic from Quin
166 - Zhero lightly attacks Coug and Quin
170 - Self preservation from Zang
178 - Jack unvotes Coug
182 - AGar makes some good points, but votes TheButtonmen, something I'd disagree with
187 - Quin votes Coug... for some reason?
190 - Vivi votes Cyan for no real reason
196 - OMGUS from Quin is OMGUS
201 - Coug switches from Jack to Quin
204 - Cyan makes good(ish) points, but I don't like the way he's not really accusing Quin
Note: Quin comes across as moronic town, to me.
214 - ConfidAnon attacks someone he thinks is town?
215 - Jack votes TheButtonmen without too much reasoning...
216 - Cyan bashes Quin some more... again, I don't like the tunnelvision
218 - Zhero with lurker vote
220 - Zang is still scum
224 - I have to disagree with my predecessor's analysis here
230 - Hallelujah! Someone votes the obv scum! Thanks, ConfidAnon.
233 - PaltryExcuse pressures Zang
236 - Zang unvotes?!
237 - Jack stalls over Zang. Looks kinda like partner behaviour.
239 - Coug also stalls on Zang.
Gutread: PaltryExcuse is town
244 - Cyan goes back to Quin
246 - Weirdness from Zang
251 - Coug FoS's Zang. Definate stalling here.
258 - Vivi hits Quin... for no real reason?
261 - I really don't like this from Coug. Definate weak target bashing.
266 - Zhero joins Buttonmen bandwagon for no real reason.
269 - ~~Zang is a stallin'~~
270 - Quin claims neighbour.
272 - Bad attack from Coug. He doesn't really give a reason for doubting the claim.
276 - More worryingness from Coug.
Partgutread: Coug is scum.
279 - Cruelty's post isn't at all bad, actually. He makes better attacks than a lot of people even without a vote.
Gutread: Cruelty is town.
283 - Coug wants to keep hold of his mislynch
Note - Lynch All Liars has been invoked a bit, but I haven't seen any lies from Quin.
Exchanges between cruelty and Paltry
295 - Very bad post from Cyan. Seems to be advocating townie lynch. Aggression has gone?
300 - Jumping from Coug. I am now fairly sure Coug is scum.
305 - Another bad post from Cyan. 95% is "unsure"?
Read: Cyan is scum.
306 - Fuck, summary from Quin. This isn't fair D:.
307 - Refuses to vote (odd) but doesn't look too bad.
309 - Zang is still scum.
313 - What is this... Coug, you have some explaining to do.
314 - Let's do the scumpost again!
316 - Cyan leaves Quin... probably realising he can't lynch a town PR on day 1?
321 - Post from predecessor. Who the heck is CA? Oh... ConfidAnon. Forgot he was even playing...
326 - Annoying jumpvote from Vivi is annoying.
334 - Fluff from Cyan. Worrying.
337 - Fat_Tony's post is worrying. I disagree with his Cyan read, he's noncommital on Jack and his TBM vote sucks.
344 - More self preserving from Cyan
346 - Don't like Cruelty's vote on TBM, but he has been on him before...
349 - Case for voting TBM from Cruelty
354 - Slightly better from Zhero
355 - Cyan looks like trying to distance himself from the outcome of the lynch.
359 - Low on content from Vivi, but seems genuine.
Gutread: Vivi is town.
I don't agree with Jack's suspicions, but he looks quite town here.
376 - Looks like Cruelty is bored town. I don't see RiA here.
382 - Yeah, I watched that vid too when I started. Quin is telling the truth - there is no neighbour role, and instead an explanation under "mafia mason".
390 - Pretty good from PaltryExcuse.
393 - Coug is more scum. I seriously dislike this logic.
409 - What the fuck kind of iso is this, Zang? Misspelling your name deserves a lynch? Silly scum is silly. Hammers...
Talking about Zang laying the hammer down follows.
424 - I disagree, past self. This is a good day one since at least 2 scumteam members have revealed themselves to us.
426 - Goddamn, strongest town read killed in the night. No fair.
428 - Reasoning on the day AFTER you made the hammer vote? What?
435 - Not bad from Vivi.
439/440 - Somewhat better from Fat_Tony
446 - Huh? ISO on confirmed town?
Zang continues to be scum.
460 - Tony's looking bad again
472 - Badposting from Coug.
480 - Uh... what, Jack?
483 - Hmm... doesn't look like RiA to me. I'm thinking Jack is town, and I sortof agree with this.
496 - Cyan abdicating any kind of usefulness he may have had?
506 - Hmm... could Coug be bussing obvscum Zang? Kinda hard to tell.
513 - Scum is always scum.
527 - Quin gets mad...
535 - Quin continues to be abrasive
542 - My gut says Zhero town for this post.
554 - What from cruelty
574 - If this post was a joke, it's a pretty hilarious one, Zang.

Thank god I'm finished desu~

Also, I have one question - how does one view a player's game in ISO? I haven't been able to find this feature.

[Leafsnail]

Oh my god it actually posted correctly. A miracle. Obviously a good omen for this game.

[Leafsnail]

I already defended using my meta as an excuse for future play.

What? I don't buy this defence. Simply saying "Oh by the way I act scum so ignore it if I do" is very scummy behaviour in itself. Any decent player can manipulate their own meta as scum.

I don't pursue cases on heresay.

???

I didn't have a posted case on Zang at 239 and that's suspicious to you, and when I finally say what's tipping me off at 251, that's suspicious also? You can't damn me if I do and damn me if I don't. Zang wasn't my top suspect until after he hammered TheButtonmen.

Having such a case and merely giving an FoS without much pressure counts as stalling, in my book.

I wasn't hopping, like The Quintastic One was portraying TheButtonmen and me.

I didn't say you were - indeed, that is part of the problem. You didn't seem to change your vote even when you seemed to have changed your mind.

While my question implies disagreement, I think you are reading a little too much into my question toward cruelty. I wanted to know how cruelty came to the conclusion that TQO was newbtown, which his posts implied he thought.

So you don't deny aiming for a mislynch?

OK, how is my SCyan case here illegitimate?

It seems like an odd change of heart, considering your previous stance.

SCyan got to the point where he just wanted TQO to somehow become a nonfactor, which is anti-information.

Cyan was accusing him of being scum, but you seemed to be defending him because he'd posted a post with content in. I do not understand how they were linked or why you were defending him.

How is posting my impression of a player badposting?

If your opinion on him hadn't changed, it seemed an odd thing to say.

[Leafsnail]

3. When did I ask useless questions?

why do you sound so surprised?

Heheheh.

Zang has done nothing except gone through my list and flatly denied every point. None of his own suspicions (he doesn't really seem to have any reason for voting Cruelty other than to put him at L-1). You also played the newb card (bad) have dismissed an argument that was clearly serious as a "joke" (very bad) and seem to care about nothing except self preservation, going through my notes with ctrl+f and your name.

Therefore I feel it is time to end the day.

Vote: Zang.

[Leafsnail]

Y'know, Zang hasn't actually flipped yet.

However, you've now given scum a new gambit, whereby they can NK cruelty and cast suspicion of a vig.

I don't think this would happen if he were town - the possibility of mislynching him would be too great for the scum to ignore.

Jack, if Coug can be scummy as town, what would he look like as scum?

[Leafsnail]

If you think he's scum, he's probably the doctor... I guess.

Jack

. Your posthammer exchange in which you marked Coug as town is now looking very suspicious. You gave no real reason for your change of mind (other than "meta?"), and couldn't tell me what, if anything, would make you think scum on him.

[Leafsnail]

Actually,

unvote

. This is Lynch or Lose. I don't want a scum quickhammer.

I'd still like Jack to answer accusations however.

[Leafsnail]

But Jack - surely that should've set your suspicion on him to "null" rather than "town"?

[Leafsnail]

Since this is lylo, a massclaim may be in order.

And yes, I think I might've misread that one, Jack.

[Leafsnail]

Well... with 2 votes to hammer, I guess the scumteam could hammer unless cruelty is scum, or unless both his voters are. I don't think it's very likely that both Jack and Jazz are scum, but you guys need to be careful if someone jumps in and puts cruelty at L-1. It wouldn't take a tremendous amount of coordination to pull of a quickhammer at this stage.

Justifying pushing someone to a potential scumhammer situation with "oh he did it too" is not good, especially when we are at lylo. Jazz only stated that cruelty was her strongest read, not that she was in any way sure of his alignment. Since we have time, why vote so early, jazz? Actually, Jack's reasoning isn't much better.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, the conversation seems to have stalled, I get the feeling we're close to sold on the lynch but nobody wants to move that quickly. Cruelty's been my top suspect for awhile, and I'm willing to put my vote on unless there's anything anyone has left to say.

Now THIS looks like a scumplayer preparing to seal a mislynch. You weren't really attacking him before (649 seems to comment on Sir C more) but you claim he's been your top suspect, and use inactivity as an excuse. But no, you still have to ask everyone's opinions, just to make sure those already on cruelty don't unvote.

So tell me - why are you "sold" on this lynch, especially considering you've made no real comment about lynching cruelty today before this post? I mean, apart from

That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting.

Which, while anti-town, is hardly damning.

[Leafsnail]

What are you talking about when you refer to being "sure of his alignment"? Of course, I can't be "sure" because I can only rely upon my reads on players, and I'm far from infallible. Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with voting for a player without being "sure" of his alignment?

Firstly, this strikes me as an overexplanation. It seems to be the same thing restated three times in slightly different terms.

Secondly, yes, of course you can never be *sure* of someone's alignment, but you'd expect something more than "my best read" before such a quick vote at lylo. You didn't seem to be sure he was mafia.

Actually, there's another thing that bothers me.

We're in a tough position here because we're in LyLo with (probably) three scum alive, so I think it's fear of being wrong that has kind of ground this game to a halt. But

I've re-read the entire game several times now

and I still find cruelty to be my strongest scum read, so I'm going to stop being fearful of being wrong and go ahead and vote.

You reread over 600 posts three times and yet the ONLY comment you had on it was that cruelty was your strongest read? Nothing on potential interactions, partners, or scummy behaviour from anyone else? Nothing with which to form your own case?

As far as I can tell, the statement made in that post has to be a lie. Town should not lie while giving reasons to vote someone.

If so, you have some explaining to do about being on both townie lynch wagons.

I wasn't even here for the first townie wagon, which you should know, having apparently read the game 4 times. As for Zang - firstly, it was a freelynch, secondly, I was pretty convinced he was scum. Wrongly, as it turned out, but at least I was voting someone who I strongly felt was scum.

As for my suspicions - you, for lying whilst voting cruelty, and Zhero, for attempting to jump on the wagon without being noticed.

[Leafsnail]

Sorry for messing up the quote. I'll remember to put the inverted commas in eventually...

[Leafsnail]

My vote was on Cruelty throughout Day 2, and I mentioned he was my primary suspect then. He's my strongest scum read: I don't like the way he deflects attention by promising more information with little follow-up. His only defense seems to be that's it's not scummy so much as lazy, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to take that at face value.

I'm having a similar problem here as I was with Jazz. You're saying he's your

strongest read

, which is fine for a freelynch. However, you haven't said that he's scum, or even that you think he's scum. You seem reluctant to commit either way.

It's not the votes themselves so much as the motives, or lack thereof. His vote on TBM was the first and really only time he expressed suspicion of him, and his arguement that the lynch was inevitable anyway felt really weird to me in a Day 1 with TQO, Zang, and is-he-a-cop-Jack running around. His vote on Zang is similarily lynch-for-lynching's-sake.

And the crucial question - why does this make him scum? Would you, as scum, wait around until L-2 and put the vote in to bring it to L-1? If so, why? I just don't see scum motivation behind cruelty's actions, and you aren't demonstrating it.

Sad My intent was the exact opposite. It's looking (to me, anyway) like the Cruelty wagon is building steam, and I'd rather hear from the people that don't agree with the lynch before we consign ourselves to another 'inevitable' lynch. If I was as certain as you think, I'd have voted already.

I actually phrased it wrong, although it looks like you scumslipped due to the mistake anyway. What I meant to say was something more along the lines of "for attempting to jump on the wagon without anyone objecting". Here, however, you have given a perfect summary of why scum are often hesitant to vote on bandwagons. The wagon is building steam, but if you are prepared to lynch him today as scum (which you must be if you put him to L-1 at lylo) then the amount of bandwagon on him should be irrelevant. And if you aren't certain, why were you going to put him at L-1 if noone objected?

[Leafsnail]

No. If he were bussing, I'd expect an immediate vote accompanied by a strong case.

[Leafsnail]

Yes, jack, but if he does it in a scummy way, whichever townie is on his wagon (if there is one) will unvote. Thus he needs to know his vote is approved of before voting.

[Leafsnail]

I can't quite parse your post 669, as when I use the quote function, it comes out all disjointed and without the proper boxes and such, but you seem to be harbouring the mistaken belief that I’m voting for cruelty because of "oh, he did it too" but that’s not accurate

This is not my main problem, although it is a contributing factor.

Moreover, he's done virtually no scumhunting, nothing to dispel the suspicions on him, and very little to participate meaningfully in the game. That just reinforces my strong scum read on him.

If it only reinforces your reasons for thinking he's scum, what are your original reasons? Also - how would you expect cruelty to act as town? As far as I can tell, if cruelty's scum, he's performing some kind of RiA, and I really don't see that here.

I don’t understand your distinction between him being my strongest scum read and him being scum: to me, they are the same thing, and you are making a distinction without a difference.

Let's say we have 5 players in a game - Alice, Bob, Christine, Damian and Edith. You are Alice. Your read on the other players are as follows:

Bob: 30% scum
Christine: 25% scum
Damian: 25% scum
Edith: 20% scum

Now, your strongest scum read is Bob, at 30%. However, from your perspective, there is still a 70% chance that he is town. Therefore being your strongest read is not necessarily enough to make someone scum. You also remain reluctant to actually call him scum.

I also can't make sense of your "overexplanation" bit because, well, it doesn't make any sense. Do you want to try again? You claimed that there is something wrong with me not being "sure" of cruelty's alignment. You then concede that "of course" there is no way that I could be sure about his alignment, but then you go on to repeat that there’s something wrong with me not being sure.

You cannot be sure (as in, 100%) but you can at least be relatively convinced, in your mind, that cruelty is scum. You really don't seem to be prepared to fully commit yourself to your vote. You always state that he is merely "your strongest read" and not "scum" or whatever.

I also can't make any sense of your unfounded allegation that I've lied about reading the game thread several times. I have indeed read it several times.

So if you've taken the time to do that... why was the only thing you got "Cruelty is my strongest scumread"? Didn't you have

any

comments to make about

anything

else you saw while going over it 3 times? Nothing about partners, town reads or general comments on the game?

You are also the player you replaced. In my game notes (spreadsheets, actually, colour coded and all), when a player replaces in, I put the new player's name at the top of the column for the previous player but everywhere else in the spreadsheet, I change all instances of the prior player's name to the new player's name because that's the best way to keep track of things and because, in my view, nobody gets a clean slate just because they replace in. I'm stuck with replacing Sir Cyanide in this game just as you're stuck with replacing Agar. So, the reality is that you were on both town mislynch wagons, whether you like it or not.

But, in that case, your argument makes no sense, even if I accept your strawman of my position ("If you vote a townie, you are scum"). If you are trying to point to a hypocrisy in my play you can't point to something my predecessor had done, as he is not me, and presumably would not run under the same principles as I would.

Further, you claimed to be so sure that Zang was scum that you hammered him with a flippant comment in response to his lengthy response to a post of yours without addressing the content

The post had no content. It was all deflections, asking for clarification on questions that didn't need it, or overdefensiveness ("I don't understand you but I deny anything you're accusing me of"). He also dismisses his reason for hammering as a joke, which made me pretty sure he was scum (unfortunately, you can be pretty sure and wrong :S).

ending the day without further discussion despite there being no looming deadline at the time

Firstly, it was freelynch, as opposed to lylo, and secondly I did not feel further discussion could do anything to redeem Zang in my eyes.

you started this Day by voting for Jack in your first post, so you're being hypocritical when you criticize others for casting a couple of votes upon the player whom they most strongly suspect to be scum nearly a week into this Day.

I unvoted, however, when someone else put a vote on, remembering the danger of voting early in lylo. It is not an equivalent act. And this is enough case of you using the comparative

most

in order to avoid a commitment.

[Leafsnail]

Hey, this is the first game ever in which I can say "I told you so". So I will.

I told you so. Although it was actually mostly my fault for not being more aggressive to Jazzmyn and not telling Jack to unvote directly. I saw this thread at school on a friend's iPod, and was planning to accuse Vivi of being scum, but it looks like it's too late anyway.

[Leafsnail]

Just out of interest, why wasn't SC modkilled along with Quin?

[Leafsnail]

SIRCYANIDE. Not strangercoug. Sorry.

[Leafsnail]

Wow, caught two scum trying to quickhammer. Although that just made them switch to their third member :/.

[Leafsnail]

I don't think we can blame the setup, town had plenty of power. My role made me bulletproof as long as I used it correctly (not hard, really, with no vig - just pick the scummiest player. If they're scum, they won't be killed, if they're town, scum won't target the most scummy anyhow) and we had an investigator, a doc and some night talkers. Scum were real strong, but their high power was sortof misleading to them, and I'm not sure how much it would've helped them.

The scum QH was rushed, but I should've directly told Jack to unvote rather than just attacking Jazz. That wasn't enough, really.

[Leafsnail]

Eh, doesn't matter, Coug. Since I was hiding behind one of the mafia members I wasn't exactly gonna get killed anyway . I'm not sure why, but pretty much everything about cruelty seemed to suggest town to me - obstructive, unhelpful town, but town nonetheless. Mostly because it would have to be Refuge in Audacity if scum, and it would be an odd gambit to pull.

[Leafsnail]

Y'know, it's funny. At first I thought I was replacing Cyan, so I was trying to write my notes from as pro-scum a perspective as possible. Then I found out I was replacing a town player...