Mini 916 ~ Brrr Mafia. GAME OVER

[Seven]

/confirm

Sorry, haven't gotten the chance to get online for a bit. Will read up and post ASAP.

FoS: whoever confirmed right before I did.

[Seven]

inverno

Bad for the town, sure, but not scummy.

Can be a tell if it's bad for town, can't it? You need to start somewhere. Why not start with who's being anti-town?

jee

It seems to be a common trend that in peoples' first games, they do not like the RVS.

Is it? Why do you think that is?

inverno:

Jasper is being sketchy. He's separated himself from the crowd by not rvsing and now he's being kinda defensive. I don't think it's scummy though. It's like he's swaying back and forth, pretending to dance, and got called out. It's newbie behavior.

Second time you say something is weird but not scummy. I think this is weird.

The1fifi:

I am not unvoting to "undraw" attention from him. I just say i witnessed something pretty similar happen before. That doesn't make him townie or scum to my eyes, but gives me no reason to keep my vote on him, since his attitude tends more to the townie side.

How is he more on the townie side? All I've got from him so far seems null at best. What are you getting your read from?

As far as the less townie.. umm..maybe you, for questioning everyone, thus trying to create the maximum havoc possible i believe.

still, that might just be your modus operandi as townie.

But one i don't like, cause it doesnt focus on scumhunting, instead focus on creating confusion

As far as I know what we need at this point is discussion as much as possible, and he's trying to get everyone talking. So what's the problem? Are you seriously too "confused" by all the "chatter" already? Because I expect there's going to be a lot more going on that this at some point. Just want to make sure you'll be able to keep up.

[Just read up to the part where inverno gets replaced, so jasonT1981 if you could just respond to what I said about him instead and tell me what you think]

jee:

As for my vote, I was only doing it to get a response out of him. And seeing as he is gone... I don't think that is going to happen. Unvote.

I think this can be a scum tactic... I think someone else already brought this up so I won't elaborate, but since jee just explicitly stated that he actually had no reasons for his vote it seems weird.

DTMaster:

^^ Random "Fosing" Stage? RFS?!??!!??

Hey. Don't diss the RFS.

I'll post more later.

[Seven]

@jee: With the explanation of you still thinking it was more or less RVS your vote makes more sense but I'm not sure I buy it. You said you would give explanations later on... and didn't.

So let's just pretend this was not a scum tactic for a second, here. What were you hoping for? And by this I mean what would have been the ideal result of that move and not what you were hoping to do. (I'm fumbling to word this properly so if that doesn't make sense I'll try to rephrase)

And why did you choose to use the tactic on inverno over someone else? Was it completely roll of the dice random or..?

[Seven]

@Seven, saying reasons will come later is a lot more acceptable at the time of a vote than no vote at all.

Can you rephrase this please?

I agree inverno was being pretty weird. I'm still waiting on jason to comment on inverno, I'm somewhat unsatisfied with him up until now.

Looking into some of the more recent debate between DTM and... everyone. Will post notes on that in a bit.

@fifi: Could you respond to my question post 75 please.

[Seven]

Nikanor:

Jasper, how would you describe the archetypical scum?

Does this qualify as a loaded question? Maybe I'm pushing the def a little but I don't like this very much.

The1fifi:

Drawing to much atention, and for that i unvote him

This is where you start getting suspicious IME. You change your vote as soon as someone mentions it, why did you vote if you wanted it to go unnoticed? Just to have it on the record that at some point you voted for Jasper?

I don't know, though. In the other game I'm in we just lynched someone for playing like this and they flipped town, so imma wait and see.

Anyway, vote Seven for being too quiet

This is only noteworthy because it's the second time she votes without bolding. I don't know if she's just forgetful or if this is to try and slip votes in without having them noticed.

Wacky:

Are you, perhaps, scum, hoping something will stick, or at least distract everyone for a couple of Days by focusing all their attention on responding to you?

You are, aren't you? If not, would you mind then if I tried to start a bandwagon directing all the attention to you?

I have a problem with anyone who has a problem with DTM's asking questions in the beginning to a bunch of people. Discussion is our best tool right now and trying to stifle that is anti-town at the very least.

I have no issue with getting reactions, I do that sort of thing as well and think it's great. However, I disagree with you on that "tunnel fight" comment. I think to find mafia we need them to incriminate themselves. But we're posting over the net, how hard is it to maintain a poker face in normal discussion? A little pressure is required to force errors: mafia may slip up and react badly when staring down a wagon, or if the bandwagonee is town they have a dilemma in whether to play the hero and defend the bandwagonee, or jump in and get them lynched.

This seems WIFOM to me. Playstyles vary incredibly, DTM's way of seeking scum is just as valid as bandwagoning. It gets discussion going and that's what matters. If I'd gotten into the game sooner you'd be telling me what you're telling DTM right now because I'd probably have used the same tactic. I think this is a null-tell.

HOWEVER, what I do think is suspicious is using both tactics at once. By this I mean his eagerness to jump on the Jasper bandwagon with jee. He tries to get discussion going one way and then immediately switches to the other without waiting for it to really work. Strange.

And I hate that so much emphasis is being put on the daykilling thing. It's annoying as hell, but it's not a tell by any means and I think it's lame to kill this guy if indeed he does have some sort of obligation to do this. I'm not saying we can't nail him for other reasons, just not this one. This, however, I QFT:

It's just very improbable. A day investigation cop is improbable. A post-restricted-vig is similarly improbable. A mafia that messed up a fakeclaim.... not so improbable.

So, argh... My feelings on Nik are mixed. I don't always agree but you do bring up some good points.

@Talbot:

Your thoughts on Jas in this game compared to what you've seen from him previously?

@McZ:

Haven't seen much from you that I find useful besides agreeing with others and pointing out things already stated.

@jbernier:

Can you post more? Hardly have anything from you.

@Echo:

See above.

@DTM:

For example if Jee was a day cop then it would make sense for a town PR to justify: "HE R SCUM, BUT I DON"T WANT TO SAY WHY TRUST ME ON THIS"

The problem here is he said he WOULD say why, and then didn't. Obv not day cop.

Believe it or not this is really the question that's going to put the nail in the coffin for this guy, depending on his answer.

Referring to post 21 by you, DTM, in which you say:

@jbnernier
You are obviously buddying with cylons. Die.

Season 4.5, yay or nay? (Trust me on this one, guys, it's full-proof)



Anyone I haven't mentioned in this post is not on my radar atm (I don't even know who I haven't mentioned...) DTM seems like the most scummy to me at this point but I'm reluctant to jump on the bandwagon, it seems too easy this early on in the game and I find a lot of the tells playing against him aren't exactly the strongest. I'm very weary of those who aren't posting much, until they talk more I can't really figure out who to vote for.

[Seven]

So, argh... My feelings on Nik are mixed. I don't always agree but you do bring up some good points.

Um I think I got mixed up here and I'm not sure if I actually quoted Nik or Wacky anymore... so let's pretend this statement applies to both until further notice, yeah?

[Seven]

@Talbot:

Your thoughts on Jas in this game compared to what you've seen from him previously?

Jasper?

Yes, sorry.

[Seven]

@Seven
Yay. Of course. I'm excited to get into Caprica :3

I would vote you right now if it didn't bring you to L-1.



Umm so yeah I'm going to try and ISO a couple people tonight or tomorrow because I'm not getting enough from DTM to really feel comfortable lynching him. And it's stupid to end a day so soon anyway. I'll find some questions to ask or something to get more conversation going, but honestly I think we're off to a slow start so far. I find I have hardly anything to go on.[/url][/list][/code][/quote]

[Seven]

I'm really uncomfortable with a DTM lynch right now. If he flips town we literally have nothing to go on. We'll have wasted a day completely because we've focused on him so much and have hardly talked about anyone else. Even if he flips scum I'd be hard pressed to find clues on who he's buddying with at this point... So I think either way we shouldn't hammer so fast. I do think he's by far the scummiest player up until now, and I agree he should be lynched today, but not until we get more conversation going.

[Seven]

I'm really uncomfortable with a DTM lynch right now. If he flips town we literally have nothing to go on. We'll have wasted a day completely because we've focused on him so much and have hardly talked about anyone else. Even if he flips scum I'd be hard pressed to find clues on who he's buddying with at this point... So I think either way we shouldn't hammer so fast. I do think he's by far the scummiest player up until now, and I agree he should be lynched today, but not until we get more conversation going.

I retract what I said here.

[Seven]

Specifically the part where I say we'll have nothing to go on no matter what he flips.

[Seven]

Yeah I'm pretty much satisfied with a DTM lynch at this point. I'm not convinced that he's mafia, but unlike Echo I do think we have significant leads no matter what he flips.

So, DTM, if you are in fact town... maybe now is the time for you to stop defending yourself and do a PBPA or something so we have your input to go on D2. I'm interested in hearing what arguments you might have on others that don't relate to your defense. This will benefit town in the long run, and that is the side you claim to be on, right?

[So yeah guys please don't hammer until he posts, we need this.]

[Seven]

If you're not convinced with him being mafia, why are you voting him and why are you willing to have the day end? Wouldn't you want to lynch someone only when you actually honestly believe they are mafia?

I would most definitely prefer to lynch someone I'm convinced is mafia. Unfortunately the way the game has progressed so far I can't find enough on anyone that would make me vote for them. I see the DTM lynch as beneficial whether he's mafia or not. If he's mafia that's one down. If he's town I'll know who to look into. It's a shame to lynch town, but I think it's fairly justified in this case.

Also, I think asking him to do a PBPA before we lynch him will help. He hasn't really had the chance to do anything but defend himself, so it should help him to at least get some real material out. It will be good for us to have no matter what he flips. And who knows, maybe after he posts it (if he does) we'll change our minds and not lynch.

[Seven]

And I'm not voting him, btw. My vote is pending his reply.

[Seven]

@Wacky: No thoughts on Nik? Has said quite a bit until now.

[Seven]

We can't do much except wait and see. If he doesn't post by Friday though I'll probably hammer him myself.

[Seven]

Vote: jbernier93

Not even because of his hammer, I think that was understandable mistake (one I've made before), but because of his general lack of content on day 1. If you look at his ISO you can see he was just coasting by and gladly joined the DTM bandwagon.

[Seven]

Alright so after reading recent posts

Unvote

The top three suspects atm are Fifi, Jasper, and Camn.

I think our biggest threat is Jasper. We are pretty sure he has a gun, we don't know if he can use it again. We should lynch him today just to be safe. Once we find out what his role is, we'll know if we can trust fifi or not. So

Vote: Jasper

[Seven]

@fifi: Why aren't you voting for Jasper?

[Seven]

Can you make your case on Zach again? In point form, if you don't mind. (If you already did this and I missed it just link me... I had a lot to catch up on and my computer kept screwing up I might not have seen it)

[Seven]

And what makes you believe Jasper's claim?

[Seven]

See, I think you are wrong here,

even if we lynch jasper and he flips as he says we still can not discount Fifi being scum...

As I have said scum can also have investigation roles... whats to say scum fifi didnt investigate Jasper, got a result of a gun only to say right, this guy is clearly not on my team and has a gun.. he is dangerous to scum.

Sorry, not sure I follow... You mean if we lynch Jasper and he flips one-shot vig?

[assuming I understood correctly... if I misunderstood, nevermind the following]

I guess you're right about fifi not necessarily being clear if Jasper's claim is true. However, the chances of jasper being scum or anti-town third party seem pretty high to me, and I think we have a better chance of lynching one of those things than if we start by lynching fifi. And in this scenario where Jas flips scum, Fifi is almost definitely scum.

However, if we lynch fifi first whether she flips scum or town we have no real answer on Jasper until we lynch him. I mean to say between the two, we'll get more information off lynching Jasper.

[Seven]

@Zach: Why Wacky? I can understand jbernier

[Seven]

I guess you're right about fifi not necessarily being clear if Jasper's claim is true. However, the chances of jasper being scum or anti-town third party seem pretty high to me, and I think we have a better chance of lynching one of those things than if we start by lynching fifi. And in this scenario where Jas flips scum, Fifi is almost definitely scum.

However, if we lynch fifi first whether she flips scum or town we have no real answer on Jasper until we lynch him. I mean to say between the two, we'll get more information off lynching Jasper.

This is pretty much what I meant. Don't know if it helps or not.

[Seven]

Anyone not voting Jasper or fifi... FOS!

[Seven]

The vote on bernier is for HAMMERING, and for lack of day 1 activity

My vote was not for hammering. I didn't elaborate much on my reasons for voting him.

I just spent a huge amount of time in another game that had massive walls of text, so you'll have to give me some time to answer all this. I'll do what I can to get through it all tonight, but I'll definitely post by the weekend. I've been pretty quiet this game as some have pointed out, so I'll go into detail about D1 and DTM and my Jasp/Fifi thing etc etc.

@Mod: Can I get a votecount please? Thanks.

[Seven]

Sorry guys, in the process of writing that post I promised Friday... Please don't hammer til it's up.

[Seven]

Alright apologies again for posting so late, you have no idea what I've been through these past few days... Doesn't excuse my shitty play throughout this game so far, though. I have to say I've had a hard time getting into it and I'll admit to lurking quite a bit. I'm back on track though, I've just re-read through everything so now you're going to get a monster post with my thoughts on what's been going on.

I'm going to ISO everyone, because that's just my preferred method of looking at things. We know DTM was town and I had said D1 that his lynch should give us some leads, I'll note in the PBPA what I came up with in this regard.

camn:

[iso 0]: Votes Fifi claiming she is obv-scum without saying why. Just that she should have been lynched D1 and that Jasper is likely her scum-buddy and Fifi's votes were to distance.

Grandly bothered by Nik's first post. Actually tries to make a big deal out of this, I really don't see why. She explains her reasoning behind her suspicions in [iso 4], but it seems pretty weak. According to #4 this is the "only thing standing in the way of me having a clean town-read on you"... I just don't see why this would stand in the way of a town read at all. And seriously Nik has done NOTHING else all game that is even slightly suspicious? Seems unlikely.

Doesn't like jbernier's vote (bandwagon).

[iso 5]: Wacky shows up as suspicious. Not reasons stated. Regfan was apparently on her list of suspects... care to say why? If Jasper is scum it seems likely that Camn is as well. She's defending his Reg NK (as pro-town player) when I don't see any reason Reg was suspicious in the first place. At the same time she says she's leaning toward Jas-scum because of bussing with Fifi... Again, if Jasper flips scum she is likely scum as well and just distancing.

[iso 10]: Defends Jasper's claim, saying it could coincide with DTMs "note about killing" when DTM had already stated in D1 that he lied about the kill note.

[iso 12]: Consistently has Fifi on her scum list but votes Zach for a "bad vibe".

[iso 14]: Votes Jasper. If Jasper flips scum this is probably more distancing. Too much wishy-washy-ness with the Jasper suspicions.

[iso 15]:

@Jasper

If you were truly following my instructions, you would remained unclaimed even now.

Again, only really relevant if Jasper flips scum but seems like scum angry at his buddy.

[iso 16]

Second, the last game I was in I was killed Night 1 by the Vig AND the Scum. Crosskills are common. If Jasper is a Vig, there is no evidence that there is a doc or a RB or anything.

Just because it happened in the last game you were in does not by any means make it common. This looks to me like Camn trying to push the idea that Jasper is clean.

[iso 17]:

as it sits right now, Fifi is practically confirmed as an investigative role...

Once again trying to push the idea that Jasper is definitely town by saying Fifi is almost definitely town. How the hell is Fifi practically confirmed as PR? Because she claimed it? Because her possible scum-buddy confirmed he has the gun she found? Give me a break. I'm not saying Fifi is not a cop or whatever, I'm just saying that for you to insist on saying that it's "practically confirmed" is a bit much, and considering everything else it's suspicious as hell.

You go through the options afterward and in a way I get that your point is just "Fifi isn't a good lynch TODAY", but I don't see why you would avoid stressing a Jasper lynch in this post if you do actually want him lynched.

[iso 19]: Again unvotes Jasper to agree with Zach, who IMO has some of the worst reasons not to vote for Jasper. And, to boot, has two of the worst lynch alternatives (being Wacky and jbernier).

So now you're wondering why I think jbernier is one of the worst lynch alternatives when I initially voted for him. Fact is, I hadn't kept up with what was going on and I voted based on a brief ISO of his D1 posts. I'm still not happy with jbernier and I do think he's anti-town, but my play hasn't really been any better than his so far and I don't think he's being half as scummy as some of the other players so far. [/disclaimer]

[iso 20]:

Except I have already proven that fifi is a bad lynch.. and so far Jasper seems as consistent as he can be.

"Consistent"? Really? You accuse him yourself of being inconsistent because of his "I won't claim" and then claiming or whatever it was. More strange contradictions on your Jasper thoughts.

Why FOS all those people?

It was a joke. I think it's great that it started a bandwagon on me, though. I'm sure at least one scum is on it, and it's what got me interested in the game finally. What can I say, pressure turns me on. But yeah I do think anyone not voting Jasper at this point is either insane or scum. My thoughts on a fifi wagon are that she's only a good lynch if Jasper flips scum, so my post should have read "FoS whoever isn't voting Jasper".

[iso 21]:

My thoughts on DTM didn't change that much. I was pretty sure from the start that he was town, and at first I wasn't sure who could be scum just by looking at his wagon because of the way he was acting (it was somewhat suspicious). The more I looked over people's posts however the more I saw some people pushing harder for his lynch than I thought necessary, and I was pretty sure that lynching him would give good leads on who to go after D2. Unfortunately I got lazy and didn't ISO anyone like I thought I would and ended up voting jbernier, the only person I ISOed for mediocre reasons. And misrep, the vote for JB was NOT for hammering. My suspicions of Jasper and Fifi are pretty much all D2 related due to events that happened D2 and that I think are way more concrete than anything I got from D1 DTM-flip reads.


Very likely scum if Jasper flips scum.

[Seven]

jasonT

[iso 13]: Votes for DTM. His vote seems pretty legit to me. He has some discussion with DTM before voting, tries to get some answers from him and finds the answers unsatisfactory.

[iso 29]:

Brings up some interesting points about fifi in this and following posts. Although I don't support a Fifi lynch today, this is definitely something to look into tomorrow.

Really not much to say about Jason right now. Seems pretty town at this point, doing some pretty good scumhunting.

[Seven]

Jasper:

Also your passive, indirect attack on me is noted since you aren't even scum hunting me, nor questioning me. It looks scummy because you are riding passively on this. If you think I'm scummy, say so to my face. This is quite new news to me since You are pretty much parroting Nikanor's argument.

I didn't think very much of this at the time, but now we know DTM flipped town (and D2s events) Jasper's reaction seems a bit weird to me.

YOU ARE SCUMMY. There, I said it to your face. Your self-imposed post restriction... the fact that you think that just because you demand that I post links to off-site games to prove my talk, that I am just going to get down on all fours and bow to your whims.

You say you see a Nikanor/Jason wagon... but yet you vote me.

You want a Jasper wagon. Why? Because I refused to give you a link? Because I refuse to sit here and let you intimidate me? Sorry DTM, not working.

It just seems like it's a bit strong. His previous statements about DTM were very soft, and as soon as DTM points it out Jasper gets pretty pissed. This could just be personality (thoughts on this jason?), but it could also be that he doesn't like having the pressure put on him like that.

[iso 11]:

First reasoning besides OMGUS that we see for his vote on DTM, echoing Wacky (Lynch All Liars).

This is the only reasoning we ever get for his DTM vote. Suspicious as hell IMO.

[iso 13]:

Starts off by FoSing fifi. Nothing suspicious about this, in the case of Jasper-town & Fifi-town. But in the case of Jasper-scum & Fifi-scum, this is carefully planned distancing. He states suspicions about Fifi "upon a re-read of D1". Then fifi "goes after him", series of posts defending himself and placing suspicion on Fifi. If these two are scum, this is pretty well-played distancing.

[iso 18]:

Now here it gets interesting. Wacky points out that it's strange that Jasper finds Fifi suspicious but isn't voting, so he says "I didn't want to seem too OMGUS [like your D1 vote?] about it". So once again he is using something Wacky says to justify his vote.

[iso 21]:

And I did not outright vote you once you voted me. I did a FOS at first... then you claiming I was scum and you knew it, that is why I voted you.

Then why were you initially worried about your vote seeming OMGUS? You claimed this to be your reason for not voting for fifi sooner.

And then in [iso 22] you admit that your vote was OMGUS and justify it by saying

You kindof deserve it for the way you just followed camn...

[iso 24]:

But I would like to know what motivated Fifi to target Jasper.

I am interested in this too.

You would think that this would be one of the first questions Jasper might want to ask Fifi. This points to the likelyhood of a Jasper-Fifi scum team once again if Jasper flips scum, because as scum he would know that Fifi did not actually "target" him for anything and might not think of asking the question. Eh, maybe it's a bit far-fetched but it's an extra point on Fifi's scum roster if Jasper flips.

[iso 30]:

Gives his reasons for targeting RegFan. Does not give reasons for using his supposed only bullet N1. D1 he was very careful to only mention DTM as suspicious, so we have no real way of knowing who was 2nd on his list.

[iso 31]:

Votes for me. This is suspicious as hell, really. I'm not saying there are not good reasons for trying to lynch me, but coming from Jasper...

- He does not participate in RVS, and in all of D1 places only one vote. As someone who doesn't participate in RVS I'm assuming Jasper is the kind of player who doesn't throw out votes randomly and really weighs the possibilities before voting. He jumps on this wagon so damn fast and completely drops any suspicion of Fifi without a second thought, because he doesn't actually want to lynch his scum-buddy.
-

A lot of these people are seeing both of us as town.

But you don't see Fifi as town, so why is this a problem? Because you don't actually want a Fifi lynch.

You already know my stance on this. Best lynch right now.

[Seven]

jbernier93:

[iso 4]:

Hadn't noticed this the first time around, but JB seems to be the first to point out

This is a mini normal, whatever role you have that would somehow relate to the messages your posting would not be in a mini normal, unless you're doing some really stupid breadcrumbing, which you've ruined by soft claiming here... really. this is setting off about 6000 alarms in my head.

This is one of his only useful comments in D1 IMO. Everything else is jumping on the wagon and reiterating what's already been said. This isn't enough to warrant a vote yet, apparently.

[iso 6]:

Places his vote on DTM saying

Yeah, so after think about it, this is a wagon I can get behind... his actions are totally illogical and scummy...

Basically just coasting by on other people's arguments.

[iso 7]

Already unvoting DTM, right after DTM calls him out for jumping on the wagon. I don't know if I think JB is scum right now. If Jasper flips town it will basically destroy all the scum leads I had, so JB would be good to look into. If he knows DTM is town his unvote makes sense to distance himself from the wagon he so eagerly jumped onto.

[iso 8]:

Incidentally I've got to stop unvoting and voting based off of gut. >_>

This is a weird thing to say... he's only voted one person outside of RVS AFAIK and didn't say anything about gut when he placed his votes. He said DTMs actions were "illogical and scummy", which tells me it was not a gut vote. This contradiction might seem minor but could be a slip.

[iso 9]:

So basically I wouldn't mind hammering DTM now, simply because his claim is just bizarre (esp. for a normal game) as is his play... so unless anyone has anything major to say re:today's lynch, I'll probably hammer soon...

Asking permission to hammer is never a good sign. I'm pretty sure I pointed this out earlier on in the game.

[iso 10]:

JB hammers DTM. I don't find this to be a scum tell really. I was also under the impression that DTM was finished posting, and I've made the mistake of hammering badly before as well and I was town. And anyway I can't really see the scum-motivation in hammering DTM early. I haven't gone through DTMs posts again but I don't remember him targeting JB real bad (correct me on that if I'm wrong).

[iso 14]:

Doesn't really take a solid stance on Fifi. Could be waiting to see if a bandwagon forms before jumping onto it. Maybe something to look into if Jasper flips town.

[iso 15]:

B) It is quite clear to me (well as clear as it could possibly be) that the1fifi is a town gunsmith who has been making some gobsmackingly turrible (that's right, turrible, not terrible) play. I also think Jasper is telling the truth, because his statements about his role have been consistent with one another; if he were scum, he would have had to decide once he saw the1fifi's statement that he would claim one-shot vig and that he already used his shot, but then say "I have a gun with no bullets inside it." I think that Jasper's actions do not correlate with how he should be acting as scum. Therefore, I think they are both town and are telling the truth.

Ahh, this is interesting. He completely omits the theory that Fifi and Jasper could be a scum-team.

He jumps onto the Sev bandwagon pretty easily, not surprising. I did not say Jasper and Fifi were the only lynch options. I thought they were the BEST lynch options, and I will push for a Jasper lynch. Honestly I didn't think that post would be taken so seriously, I just wanted to get more discussion going on those two players.

[iso 17, 18]:

Quick snip fight with Fifi over JB being "defensive"... If Fifi is scum, might be distancing between the two. Fifi is really the most suspicious here for picking a random fight over nothing.

Overall I have no idea what to think about JB anymore. He isn't my main concern at this point in the game, I'll have to reanalyze him depending on whether or not Jasper and/or Fifi flip scum.

[Seven]

McZombie:

[iso 15]:

First time I see her really scumhunting. Pretty much the only useful post all game.

Nothing to say about Zomb except that you need to stop coasting and get some content in there. Who are your top 3 suspects right now and why?

[Seven]

Nikanor:

[iso 11]:

Votes for DTM. Seems legit to me, the only really weak argument is when he gets on DTM for the whole list thing (Scum being at the top or the bottom). Considering the rest is pretty dece, I think it's ok to let it slide.

This is all I have on Nik right now. Null.

[Seven]

The1fifi:

Argh... This is gonna be tough. I've pretty much stated my thoughts on Fifi through my ISOs of other players, so I don't really see the point in doing an ISO... Seems very newb, whether it's scum-newb or town-newb I can't really say. I think our best bet is to lynch Jasper who seems the most scummy to me atm and if he flips scum I'd feel pretty confident Fifi is his buddy.

I went through the ISO just to see if there was anything I'd missed, but everything has pretty much been pointed out already and I really don't see the benefit in raping this page any further. Very likely scum if Jasper flips scum.

[Seven]

[This is taking so much longer than I expected... I'm exhausted. Almost done, though.]

Wacky:

I like Wacky right now. Asks good questions. Probably town.

[Seven]

Zachrulez:

[iso 1]:

I forgot about this:

Also noting that Jasper never reacted to fifi's vote.

This was for D1. In the Jasp-scum&Fifi-scum scenario this would make sense. Jasper doesn't think Fifi's vote matters because he knows it's not real and so doesn't address it.

[iso 4]:

Zach is targeting Fifi in this post and others. This doesn't say much about Zach except that he is hunting, I just wanted to note that Fifi's D2 vote on Zach might be because he sensed him zoning in on her. She later accused him of tunneling or something, really he's just addressing suspicions.

[iso 12]:

He votes fifi for being willing to hammer DTM despite thinking he was town. I'm pretty sure at this point I had also stated I was confident DTM was town but I was willing to vote for him anyway. Why didn't you mention me in this post?

[iso 52]:

Seriously? You spend D1 AND D2 suspicious as hell of Fifi, and that one post gets you to switch your vote to me? If Fifi is town you are very probably scum. While I do agree that a Fifi lynch is not good for today, you seemed to think it was until people started voting for me.

[iso 56]:

I dislike seven's fos post, because it casts weak suspicion on people reluctant to lynch the claimed power roles, and shows a fixation on keeping the focus on those players, and off anyone else who might possibly be a better lynch.

I take back trying to push for a Fifi lynch today, but I will definitely push for a Jasper lynch. I don't think there is a better lynch atm, I don't see why I'd pretend to. Yeah FoSing everyone is ridiculous, it wasn't meant seriously.

[iso 63]:

At which point Seven made scummy as hell comments on how he was suspicious of everyone not voting on either the Fifi, or Jasper wagon. (Which is pretty much where scum would want the votes if they were both town, I'm sure there was a discussion along these lines.)

What "comments"? I did a general FoS. That it was taken so seriously is kind of hilarious, I thought it would be obvious that it was a joke. Why would scum want votes on both Jasper and Fifi? I can understand Fifi if his cop claim is real, but why Jasper? It's not like he's a threat anymore to scum if he is indeed one shot vig. I would think they would be pushing solely for a Fifi lynch. It wouldn't be all that difficult either considering how scummy he's been playing all game. I'm sure there are several people who would jump straight onto that bandwagon.

Not sure about Zach. Would have to investigate further if Fifi flips or something. I'd say a Null toward very slight scum for now.


Alright I'm just about drooling on the keyboard right now, so if any of this doesn't make sense point it out and I'll try and make sense. The last few especially are probably meh... Anyway, sorry for posting so much but I had a lot to make up for.

[Seven]

@Nik:

1. Yes, DTM was acting suspicious but for the most part I had a gut town vibe from him. I chalked up most of what was suspicious to playstyle, but I could see why everyone was voting for him. I know a lot of people don't make the anti-town/scum distinction, and I'm only just starting to understand why and when people do... I think DTM fits the anti-town category more than the scum category. I don't know if that's clear enough, if not I'll try to reiterate.

2. Not sure which quote that is, I'm assuming it was about Fifi or Camn? Either way, if Jasper flips town I'd like to look into JB.

3. So top three suspects right now are Jasper, Fifi and camn. I'm not sure who I would pick as second between camn and Fifi right now, but I think Jasper needs to be lynched first anyway.

@Wacky

I think point three above should answer your question, but I don't know what you mean by "suspected links"... do you mean possible scum buddies? If so I think the above answer should be enough. And I would absolutely lynch Jasper today. If he flips scum we have two very likely buddies and if he flips town I want to look into JB.

@JB

1. I was saying I agreed with your post, not that it was scummy.

2. My issue with your unvote is not really that you unvoted, rather that you seem to change your reasons for having voted him in the first place.

3. Yeah... I kind of see what you mean here. I don't think we can rule him out as scum based on this, though. We have no idea his actual capabilities.

4. My mistake... Things get confusing when you're reading everything in ISO. I retract my statement.

[Seven]

I don't understand what your point is, Jasper. Yes, I fail to believe that you are town. Let's face it, you are a threat to town. You can't just claim something and have everyone off your back. "Oh don't kill me I'm a vig!" *gasp* "Oh ok! Sorry I suspected you!" Be real, yea? You say you have a gun, Fifi says you have a gun. You say it's empty. We can't confirm that. You say you shot Reg, who flipped town. You used the only bullet you had to shoot someone Night 1! If you were a one-shot vig you would NOT use your only bullet N1. I don't care what JB says about "if you have a gun you'll likely use it", the fact of the matter is there was no reason for you to shoot N1. You didn't seem to think anyone was suspicious D1 besides DTM, so what happened during Night phase that made you suddenly think you should kill Reg? I'll tell you: You and your scum buddies thought he might be a threat and decided to off him.

I am absolutely trying to push for your lynch. I am convinced you are scum.

If I do get lynched today at least I'm sure you'll be lynched tomorrow.

[Seven]

Well I posted my thoughts on you in the ISO p22. I think your best shot at convincing me of anything right now would be to address each point directly.

[Seven]

@Zach:

OK I looked up that first thing and I guess I said it around the same time as Fifi, and it wasn't as explicit at that point as it was later on so it's not as relevant. (It was 146 in case you're wondering).

I think scum-camn makes more sense if Jasper is scum but we'll see.

[Seven]

Err FTW...

Unvote

for now. I need to go through all this again... I'm very interested in hearing what Wacky has to say about all this. I was almost expecting her to claim tracker or something later on, but if what Zach is saying is true then she might have been setting us up for a fake claim and the only scum would want to do that.

But I do think we need to consider the possibility that Zach is lying. My gut tells me he isn't, but I want to look things over before I make any decisions based on what he's saying.

@JB why do you think Jasper is the best vote after Zach's claim? I know you're saying you don't want to elaborate because it might help scum, so if you really can't answer this then at least explain why you can't answer (or you know just give us something to go on, yea?)

And @Jasper I still want your response.

[Seven]

Well sorry to say this but I think you should tell what it is. I'm seriously reconsidering my vote right now because of Zach's claim.

[Seven]

@Fifi: I'm not forcing JB to "claim" anything, I asked what his theory was. How was I supposed to know there would be another role involved?

@JB: Fair enough.

[Seven]

@camn: Any reason why you put yourself 3rd on your own town list?

[Seven]

LOL yes... I am sofa king wee todd ed, sorry.

[Seven]

I asked him to say more because it's weird to vote for someone and say "um yea I can't give reasons because it will help scum". I mean everyone could say that and it would be the most ridiculous game ever. Sure it could be legit, but there's no real way to verify that.

[Seven]

camn, this assumes Jasper is telling the truth about being 1shot vig. If he is scum, he could have multiple bullets. The whole reason to lynch him in the first place is assuming he's lying. Why would his last post make any difference? What's convincing about it? I know you weren't voting for him but I fail to see why his last post prompted yours.

[Seven]

So the way I see it, if we lynch Jasper we are eliminating a pretty big threat. If it turns out he was telling the truth at least we know we're not lynching a PR. My gut is just too strong on this one, and along with everything else it just makes sense.

Vote: Jasper

I believe the count is L-2? I still want to see what he's going to say, though. And we still have 2 weeks anyway, there's no rush.

[Seven]

Gotcha.

[Seven]

Jasper I've told you what you can do and you haven't done it. You're either not trying or you have nothing to say which makes me think my vote is in the right place.

[Seven]

@JT: Whether there is a Jasper&Fifi scumteam doesn't really matter. Jasper is scummy independently of Fifi, how does this affect your vote? (Or does it, even)

[Seven]

Jasper is the best lynch right now but I'll feel bad if we mislynch when we still have a lot of time before deadline. I don't really know what more information we can get though.. we've had three claims since the beginning of the day. I'm still waiting on Jasper to give us his defense, but besides that... If we can wait at least for the replacement to come in for McZ it might have a different perspective and see things we hadn't considered.

I guess there are still a lot of people not voting so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Seven]

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I really don't like Jasper's reaction to the claim at all. If Jasper was town, I really don't think his natural response would be to vote the person who would have essentially "proven" to have role-based info on the type of role he had. I'd think he'd probably ask The1fifi how he knew about his supposed role or even to just outright claim or hint SOMETHING rather than knee-jerkingly vote the guy.

I'm not sure yet if I agree with his stance on Fifi, I'm still wavering on that and will wait to see if Jasper flips but I love this part. This is exactly why I love replacements. I hadn't thought about this, they tend to bring something new to light. Good feel on him so far.

@Jasper: Are you ever going to bother addressing anything I said in the ISO I did of you? You asked me what you could do, and you haven't done anything except respond to the occasional question. I'm starting to think you don't want to say too much in case you slip up and leave hints about your scum-buddies.

[Seven]

@Jasper: Are you ignoring because you think I'm scum or because I'm sexy and it makes you nervous?

[Seven]

You don't know if I'm scum, though. I'm claiming town just as you are. I'm already voting for you anyway, what do you have to lose?

[Seven]

About Jason-town:

At the point of the ISO I wasn't getting any reads on Jason. Mostly he was neutral, but I found he was bringing some decent things to the table so I put him as mostly town. Even in ISO he slips under my radar. I don't know what to say about this, really... Even at this point in the game he's pretty neutral. I haven't looked over the posts brought up by Incog yet, I'll give my thoughts on those later.

@Jason: At that point I was expecting to be hammered either way. If I were really trying to appeal to anyone, not posting any real content in their ISO would not be my method of choice. I can understand your angle, though. And if Jasper is not playing to his scum-meta, is he playing to his town-meta?

On Camn: I think her lynch is more justified if Jasper flips scum. My whole analysis on her depends on Jas-scum... I'd have to look over everything again if he were to flip town.

[Seven]

Only scum are ever convinced of someones alignment before the flip.

Scum don't need to be convinced, they know.

[Seven]

I say we wait for Nik as well.

[Seven]

I don't know what difference it makes whether we claim before or after Fifi's reveal?

Claim: Vanilla Townie

jb is my main suspect right now. Camn is strange, I need to re-read her.

[Seven]

I want to hear more from jbernier. Once again he's flying under the radar. He was to be my main suspect D3 if Jasper flipped town and I'm standing by that. My whole case on Camn was mostly relevant if Jasper flipped scum, so I'll need to go through that again because I'm getting the same gut read as Fifi and Wacky. I might look into her meta though, some people just always give off bad vibes.

Other than those two I really don't know.

[Seven]

JBs 768 is so scummy my eyes are bleeding.

[iso translator ENGAGE!]

Wacky - Seems town but has a few scummy posts
camn Echo - Seem town (probably my scum buddy)
Nikanor - Seems town but has a few scummy posts
Incognito McZombie - McZ seemed scummy, and Incog is my buddy so Imma say neutral.
The1fifi - everyone believes his claim, can't say anything about him
jasonT1981 inverno - I don't know but has some scummy posts

[/iso translator]

I still want to hear from Nik and Fifi, but seriously my vote is aiming at JB.

[Seven]

I don't have time to post right this second but I will tonight. Don't lynch anyone.

[Seven]

Reading over Camn and Incog's posts I'm pretty sure we've found our scumteam in them and jbernier. I don't even care which one we lynch first anymore.

My D2 suspicions were already on camn and JB, Jasper's flip confirms those already. I really didn't get much of a read on Incog (or McZ for that matter), but the last couple pages make him the most obvious third scum.

Camn's trying to coax Fifi into following her vote and pretty much succeeding at this point. Twice in 775 she claims town, twice she reassures Fifi she knows he's town, and three times refers to Fifi's inexperience. Not only is she buddying up to our PR, but she's relying on Fifi's easily swayed vote to manipulate him into almost whatever the hell she wants.

Nik went AWOL for a while, and got all lurky. Considering how all game there is very little to go on I can't possibly see why she is the best lynch. There are a few posts that are slight tells at best, and she's supposed to be our best lynch? Yes, she lurked in endgame. It's not like she had a reason to get lurky all of a sudden, there wasn't any serious pressure on her from D2. It seems more logical that she simply didn't have time to post in every single game. \

In Incog's 776 he starts his case on Nik, acquiesces that JB is being scummy but doesn't seem to want to push the case and is of course denying he sees anything suspicious about camn. And the way he ends it is just classic:

I still think my case on Jason has some merit to it, so I think he'd probably be my number 3 but certain things about Wacky and Seven still bug me, so I'd need to look through their play to see if I still buy into my Jason-stuff at this point.

So basically at this point every player in the game is a potential lynch except camn and Fifi.

And about the jailkeeper.. well, its a protective role, but its not that good, cause it can't protect a power role withouth roleblocking him.

In general I don't think there's any obvious reason to target the JK over the GS. In this game however it was pretty obvious that Fifi would be best to keep around since they had a RB since he can be swayed with a little convincing. I don't think Zach would be as easily persuaded.

In camn's 789 she even gives us the "scumteam" for when JB flips:

I think scumteam =

jbernier93
Nikanor
jasonT1981

Although I really can't see why these three players would be connected, other than the fact that JB seemed doomed to be lynched (and flip scum), and camn/cog have been mutually trying to build cases on the other two that would seem stronger than the more obvious camn/incog/JB team.

I like Nik's 793, I'd like to see the rest of what she has. The only problem with her D1 analysis is that I should have been counted as voting for DTM. I did fully support his lynch at the time.

Most of his day one posts also strike me as those of an active lurker.

I already admitted to active lurking D1, this isn't really a revelation.

SEVEN MUST BE SCUM.

Because of the DTM wagon.
I can't fit it into my head strategically that the ENTIRE scumteam would be on the Day 1 mislynch, right?

Really. This is serious? I WAS ON THE DTM BW. The only reason I didn't end up actually voting was because by the time I was ok with his lynch it would have been too close to letting someone hammer and I wanted to hear from him first (I had requested he do a PBPA). So scum IS all on the BW. Using the phrase "I've never seen it in the X amount of games I've played so it can't be possible" is completely ridiculous and NOT a valid point.

Gosh it totally makes sense.
Seven also somehow got OUT of a lynch.

Wow. I got out of a lynch. You know it's not a miracle, right? It happens. It's not like I unvoted for myself. I deserved to be lynched for the way I was playing, but I got back into the game and thankfully I wasn't the D2 lynch. My lynch would have been wasted at that point anyway.

Incog's 812 is full of ridiculous arguments as well:

Nik's unvote: I don't see what's abnormal about this. I'm pretty sure I did the same thing when I was voting for Jasper and had missed a lot, so I could reanalyze and make sure my vote was in the right place in case someone decided to hammer while I was away or something crazy.

Wacky's "defense" (because apparently agreeing=defending nowadays): Scum throwing more sand into our eyes. Incog is trying to test the waters. Words like "weird" and questions like "can anyone see the potential for" are inappropriate at this stage in the game.

Disintegration of my wagon: Meh, nothing to say about this. Unless all 5 people on my wagon were scum your point is inexistent.

I am practically convinced re:Seven....

You went from convinced to practically convinced. What happened?

Furthermore, I think we need to gamble on seven-scum even if I were LESS convinced... because we can get a lot out of the seven-wagon if he flips.

So we need to risk losing LyLo on the off chance that I'm scum IN CASE I flip? Please.

@ Seven:
You are scum. It came to me in a dream.
Tell us who your buddies are and it will go better for you.

I thought you knew who my buddies were? And I also thought you would get amazing info from my lynch?

It's cute, though, this routine of yours.

Scum hate it when town begins clearing town, so they try to plant little seeds of doubt on the townies who seem a bit too sure of each other.

You just described your D3 play. Thanks for the heads up, mate.

Incog and camn then do exactly what I expected. They get fifi to put his vote on some townie and immediately place their votes on same townie AFTER Fifi has voted.

Incog's 827 is irrelevant once again. Wacky has had fewer posts but they were full of content. Nik was V/LA twice in a row, and this is NOT the time to lynch lurkers.

JB knows his vote on Nik would be too obvious even though he says he would switch to Nik. He's apparently waiting for 2 more town to vote Nik so he can QL at the end.


Tried to keep it short as possible by not quoting too much.

[Seven]

I have considered Fifi-scum, you know that. At this point in the game with Jasper flipping OSV it seems unlikely. I don't think we have a scum GS.

[Seven]

I agree that at this stage scum would be following the thread.. and would have piled 2 more votes on IF NIKA WAS TOWN..

There are two scum on Nik's wagon. Only JB left to QL later.

So your "logic" is false. It's weird anyway that you're so convinced Incog is town when all he claimed was VT like you did. There's no reason to believe there is more than one townsperson on that wagon.

However, since nika is scum, that didn't happen. NIka won't self-vote.. and Seven defended her instead of bussing......

See above. There are already two scum on that wagon. And you do realize town won't vote who they think is town in lylo, right? If you want to call my post from before "defending" Nik, fine. That's part of your scum tactic for today, I get it. But I'd rather call it "attacking" camn and Incog.

Only scum set the stage for their future mislynches. MY suspicions develop based on the events that have transpired. SEVEN'S were well fabricated long ago.

I didn't "set the stage". I rated people on their probability of being scum after Jasper's flip.

AND THAT WOULD HAVE LOOKED TOO SCUMMY, SO YOU DIDN'T DO IT!

Er, no. Read the rest of the sentence. I had asked him to do a PBPA. JB hammered when it was uncertain whether DTM would be posting more.

Semantic arguments are the lifeblod of scum.

The difference between the words "convinced" and "practically convinced" is not semantics. You added an adverb, it changes the meaning of the verb. I want to know why. Way to avoid the question, though.

Only this is the OPPOSITE of a scum play at this point.
The scumplay in Lylo is to wait till a small townie-fueled wagon builds.. then quickhammer 1-2-3.
Trust me, both Incog and I know that play.
The fact that it HASNT happened proved Nikanor is scum.

*sigh*
I feel like I have to say this in every game that I play in, so forgive me if I've said this before but just because you know what the typical scum move is and don't do it does NOT make you town. It makes you scum who know what they're doing. Not to mention that any attempt to say what scum's play at LyLo will inevitably be is WIFOM and futile. Your "Incog and I know that play" line just proves to me that you would avoid using this play if you were scum together (which you are), so well done.

Most of Incog's posts are asking me questions directly and trying to get me to waste time answering him. I don't think they're relevent or bring up any good points, so I'm not going to waste my time debating with scum when I should be discussing with town. If any town players want me to answer his post for the sake of argument, I will.

@Wacky: Why are you more suspicious of Incog than of camn? I didn't think he was scum until seeing his interactions with camn today. I find camn has been suspicious since the beginning. As for Nik, while I can entertain the idea of her being scum I find JB is more likely. All game he piggybacked on other people. Not until LyLo did he start trying to post content, and it took him being under a lot of pressure. He put his supposed last vote on you, and as soon as his teammates started throwing my name around he switched it to me and has otherwise stopped posting IMO because he doesn't want to sink his scummates any further. I just don't see how Nik is scummier than that.

[Seven]

@Wacky: Thanks for answering. My preferred vote today is still on Camn, I've had bad vibes from her since the beginning on top of everything else. I was getting town vibes from Incog until Today. I am however confident enough in him being scum with camn that I will put my vote on him if that's where things seem to be going.

For now

Vote: Camn

As for JB vs Nik... We should have two extra days to gather information on those two anyway. I'm assuming it will be clearer by then.

[Seven]

And I just realized JT was supposed to be off V/LA Monday morning. It's about time he post today.

[Seven]

WHAT

I can't believe you guys killed ME, of all people!

I don't care if the game is over, I still think camn is scum... :/ I can't believe I failed so hard.

Anyway, it was a really great game guys. I'm sorry I was so lame D1 but it turned out pretty awesome. This was the first time I played a game all the way to the end and I'll enjoy playing with all of you again sometime, I hope.

Next time remember Sev is never scum, will ya?

[Seven]

Now that the game is over I was wondering if anyone had feedback on my play... This was my second finished game (first from start to finish) so I'm still learning.

Obviously lurking for 1.5 days is not the way to go :/