Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Zhero]

/confirm

Ok...follow up question to those who answered. If you are innocent, why would you want the cop to waste an investigation on you? Trying to prove you aren't scared makes sense for the mafia...

That's pretty WIFOMy there.. seems like if they say yes they have something to prove, if they say no they have something to hide.

Re: Jack's claim - interesting. Not a single person has brought up the possibility of him being mafia, which disturbs me a bit.

I'm more concerned that people seem to think he's actually claiming cop.

[Zhero]

My guess for the role setup:

1 godfather
2 goon

1 cop
1 doctor
1 roleblocker

That's an oddly specific guess. Any reasoning?

3) I didn't considerer it rolefishing because I wasn't directly trying to ask anybody to reveal themselves as the doctor I was mentioning. I can go further into my explanation of what I thinks gonna happen, but you already said you don't like all the role talk and I don't want to upset anyone else today.

Since we know nothing about the setup until people claim or flip, speculating about it makes it look like you're angling for claims. Hence the fishing accusations.

Well it isn't as much him hurting the town as him not helping the town

Not helping the town is a pretty weak tell when we've still got someone who hasn't posted at all, and multiple people who've only posted once.

All that said,

Vote: Jack

[Zhero]

You haven't read the thread carefully...

Not sure what you mean, so I guess not.

[Zhero]

You haven't read the thread carefully...

Yeah, note to self, don't play Mafia half-asleep.

That said, I disagree with your (actual) point there; speculation can be harmful to town as it encourages rolefishing and potentially drowns out more productive conversation.

@Everyone: does anyone actually think Jack's argument ("you first make a joke post and then a serious post") is anything more than a null tell?

I think gauging a person's willingness to join into a serious discussion is a useful tell, and even though its weak in this instance its still worth pointing out.

[Zhero]

That I was looking for something specific in the ISO read is conceded and implied in my vote post, but I didn't find what I was looking for.

What were you looking for?

I'm not sure I'm unerstanding your point here. Why is proposing a game setup (especially one he acknowledges in the same post to be made up) scummy?

Because nobodies answered my question as to why mafia would be so willing to be investigated by the cop. As you can see from my earlier posts, I was CONVINCED that Jack was the cop, and still am about 70% sure of that. So I go "pick me! pick me!" for an investigation. Are there any other roles beyond the Mafia Godfather that you can think of that would be so blatantly willing to be investigated.

Hehe, are you breadcrumbing godfather?

Then again, I shouldn't be surprised. A guy borderline claims cop of all roles and the town turns on him, so me claiming townie (I do have an ability but I don't think I should reveal it unless I'm actually in need of a true claim) shouldn't surprise me that people still think I'm scum. lol. What right do I have after all to think I could be cleared when the hypothetical town cop himself can't get away with an early claim? lol.

Well, yeah. If we believed you were town just because you said so, scum would have a pretty easy game.

[Zhero]

@Zhero; What do you think of the spate between TQO, Jack and SIR_Cynaide?

I'm getting a pretty town-vs.-town read on Jack and Sir C.. I think I understand where both of them are coming from and I'm not seeing any big tells either way.

TQO, on the other hand, is looking a bit shifty. His suspicion of Jack is unexplained and his PR claim in 164 is kind of out of nowhere. Your note of his exaggeration is also interesting.

Unvote. Vote: The Quintastic One

TQO: what's your experience with Mafia?

[Zhero]

@Zhero; What do you think of the spate between TQO, Jack and SIR_Cynaide?

I'm getting a pretty town-vs.-town read on Jack and Sir C.. I think I understand where both of them are coming from and I'm not seeing any big tells either way.

TQO, on the other hand, is looking a bit shifty. His suspicion of Jack is unexplained and his PR claim in 164 is kind of out of nowhere. Your note of his exaggeration is also interesting.

Unvote. Vote: The Quintastic One

TQO: what's your experience with Mafia?

[Zhero]

My experience so far (without going into too many details of currently ongoing games) two newbie games on here (both ongoing, one I replaced out of) this game (ongoing) one finished game on Roughkut, and another ongoing game on Roughkut.

So basically, only one game is officially finished and that's on a completely different website. So I or anyone else shouldn't even be using any current game on this site as meta for or against me.

Cool, wasn't aiming to meta you, just wanted to get an idea of where you were coming from.

But I can hint at my role if I feel I may be in danger of getting lynched right? I just can't directly say what I am.

Typically the benefit to letting the rest of the town know your PR is outweighed by the problem with letting the mafia know.

Oh wow, I completely forgot about this game. I only was reminded by an email that told me I had a new pm here.

This is my first time playing and I feel like I'm surrounded by players much better than me, but it seems like sir cyanide looks like mafia. It's almost like all he's doing is arguing. I can't really place my finger on it, but I just have a really bad feeling about him.

so. unvote; Vote: sir cyanide

(did I vote correctly?)

8 pages in and this is all we get? Thoughts on Jack's 'claim' and the TQO wagon would be appreciated, at least.

So I highly urge a lynch of either Strangercoug or Thebuttonmen.

Why specifically them and not ConfidAnon and I? Both of us also had votes on you when you said this.

2) I hinted at my role as a townie. And I will continue to give you yet another clue since you seem incapable of grasping it. I can PM one person at night (they know who they are), but my role states I do not know if they are scum or not.

Definitely do not name your partner here. That info is better left unsaid.

3) I have stated that I am perfectly ok with getting Nightkilled in order to save the cop or doctor for a turn. Yeah, scum TOTALLY declare themselves as sacrificial lambs all the time to help the town, right? Stop being so closed minded and foolish.

Just to further what others have said here, scum should actually be happy to offer themselves up for NK sacrifice if they think it'll earn them town points, since scum of all people already know they're not going to be NK'd anyway.

Noob town often think that a claim clears them, and will continue to harp on that fact until everyone believes them. TQO sounds like noob town.

Starting to lean that way myself..

Definitely wanting to hear more from Vivi here, more content please.

Unvote. Vote: Vivi57

[Zhero]

Man, sorry about the inactivity, car broke down and got hit by a snowstorm; it's made life complicated lately. Should be more active from here.

Alot has been said recently but honestly there's not much to comment on. I agree with AGar that the TQO/TBM stuff is a distraction. It seems like it's going in circles at this point and not much is actually being said.

Zang's posts are a bit confusing and somewhat contradictory. Zang: who is scum?

TQO reads newbtown to me.

Right now I'm liking the TBM wagon.

Unvote. Vote: TheButtonmen

[Zhero]

Zhero- Right now I believe that thebuttonmen might be scum but I do not have enough reasoning to vote for him yet.

But what is your reasoning? As far as I can tell, this is the first time you've mentioned him.

@everyone: What do you think is the single most important event/debate/altercation to have taken place so far in the game?

I'd put it at Jack's investigation gambit thing at the beginning of the game. It generated a lot of interesting responses and gave us more activity in the early game.

I am unsure of his alignment, but he's definitely the best lynch -for now- (that may change during the day). If we somehow conclude he's town, I would like to suggest that we just keep him in the game as a +1 for the townie side but completely ignore everything he posts.

Yeah, this reeks of stifling conversation. Even if we end up confident of his alignment (which is dubious to begin with), people's reactions to him are still good indicators of their own alignments.

FOS: Sir C

[Zhero]

Hello Fat_Tony!

I'm not sure that citing TBM as your number one suspect because he thinks you're suspicious is good logic

Tunneling is a valid arguement, even from the target of the tunneling. I think TQO's made the distinction between suspicion and tunneling (post 223 for instance).

[Zhero]

I have an idea of who I want to vote for, but I want my question answered first. I'll rephrase it.

Ah fuck it, I'm in.

vote: TBM

Was TBM the person you were thinking of earlier? Just curious, even at L-1 it would be nice to hear your thoughts on the game thus far.

We're in no rush to lynch (Deadline is Feb 11th, 9 days from now). I say we wait for a more indepth response from you, no? And an answer from Vivi to the recent accusations.

Agreed, no rush here.

TBM, that's L-1. Claim?

[Zhero]

And do you belive TQO's story that when he was searching the wiki he never used the search bar?

If you search the wiki for "Neighbor", it automatically redirects to the Mason page, which mentions Neighbors as a variant. They don't actually have their own page. It explains how he ended up calling it a mason variant, I guess.

Where is this leading though? Why would a scum TQO fakeclaim, out of nowhere, a role that's easy to confirm and doesn't make him town? I understand the concept of Lynch all Liars, but if the only thing he's lying about is the level of research he did on his role, what's the point?

The whole arguement feels incredibly semantic to me.

[Zhero]

I never said it was a list of scumtells or an analysis I just said that it was tbm in ISO.it was like what tqo did a few pages ago with the whole thread but I just did tbm.

So if that's just a summary, why did you hammer? What was your rationale?

No, I didn't lie. I am town. But you're lynched, and scum or not, I couldn't be happier. Have a nice day you stupid fucker.

Whoa, calm down. He just claimed townie after the hammer. Gloating over the mislynch?

[Zhero]

I've been called a liar, stupid, moronic, idiotic, scummy, anti-town, newbish, ridiculous, pathetic & down syndrome for being openly town. TBM deserved to be lynched and I couldn't be happier that he's gone. I don't care that he turned up town, he deserved my vote and I don't regret his lynch.

Are these statements related? A quick iso search shows that TBM never used the words moronic, idiotic, pathetic, or down syndrome, and never refered to you as ridiculous. Liar, scummy, anti-town, and newbish are all reasonably game-related.

It was cruelty who called you 'obvidiot' and your logic ridiculous, and Sir Cyanide who called you a 'downie'. Your post I'm replying to here is the only mention of 'moronic' or 'pathetic', at least as far as Ctrl-F is concerned. That said, why is it TBM that 'deserved' to die?

Your appeal to emotion is noted.

Zang: who is scum?
Cruelty: who is scum?

[Zhero]

my top suspects are sir cyanide and Jack.

Why?

Since we know now that he is confirmed town, and since the standard of play so far in this one has been fairly poor from all sides, I have no problem believing that the NK was down to scum-Zang having figured out that he was probably going to get owned by Paltry in D2, and acting out of desperation. I am definitely looking for some decent work by Zang to keep him from being our daykill today.

This is pretty WIFOMy though.. and Zang wouldn't be the only mafioso. Nor was Paltry the only person to express suspicion of Zang on Day 1.

Don't get me wrong though, Zang's play is pretty worrying.

[Zhero]

If I as townie can't honestly say "I'm not interested in convincing anybody", then I have to LIE about it, give my reasons even though I don't want to (faking it), or just not say things like "stranger coug is climbing up my scum ladder" (A lie of omission).

I can't speak for everyone else, but "I'm not interested in convincing anybody" would have been fine by me. Not responding at all feels a bit more suspicious, and as easy as it may be to fake the "mafiascum.net townie", it's even easier to blend in with a town where nobody posts anything at all unless they feel like it.

A few people are mentioning Crueltyscum, whats the case there?

[Zhero]

He came in near the end of day one with no vote, and a little bit that would let him go either way on TQO. Never said much about finding TBM suspicious, but jumped on his wagon very awkwardly (gut feel). Said it was a good lynch because nothing happens day 1 and a mislynch would give us tons of information. But today he hasn't posted a lot or used any of that information.

Yeah, reading him in iso I can see what you mean. I kinda feel like there's often the promise of more info, and then not much follow-up. I agree with Fat_Tony as well that his vote on Vivi is pretty weak, though that said, Vivi's getting very worrying. 9 posts in a 21 page thread makes it incredibly hard to get any read at all.

You say that but there's not enough support on either of those wagons right now to get a lynch. lol. The way this game is stagnating I'm guessing we'll probably just end up stalling out til the deadline and the majority lynch (Zang right now) will happen whether the rest of us agree to it or not.

Eh, I'm not too worried about the stalling yet. It looks like a few players, myself included, got hit with real life for awhile there, and the conversation's still moving along.

So at this point I'd rather the town lynch me and get the game moving already rather than sit here and act like we're all clueless pretending like we've really went through 21 pages and nobody can think of a target worthy of a majority vote.

The thread may be 21 pages long, but the Day only recently started. A Day where we're sold on a majority lynch 4 pages in would be far more suspicious to me.

zhero-who do you think is scum?

After going back over the thread, I'm leaning towards Cruelty as my top suspect. His question (what the most important part of the game was) seemed to go nowhere, he talks about developing more information later with no followup, and, of course, his odd bandwagon hop.

Other than Cruelty, StrangerCoug and Sir Cyanide are good alternatives, though I'd have trouble believing they're both scum together. I'll try to flesh that out when I get a chance.

Vote: Cruelty

[Zhero]

unlike the rest of the town who's given up trying to find scum because they have no suspects.

This game is destroying itself. Nobody's willing to help me tie ropes around SIR CYANIDE and Zang's necks, The Quintastic One is being disruptive, and I'm out of the loop as to who other players think are scum. We need to come up with something within less than two weeks.

Here, for handy reference purposes, is a compilation of scumlists across the board.

AGar: (no posted list, voting Cruelty)
Cruelty: I think scum is somewhere in vivi, SC(oug), jack and zang
Fat_Tony: And finally - my scumlist: Zang, Jack, cruelty.
Jack: Zang probably is scum. ... Cruelty is probably the other. I'm getting strong town reads from most of the rest, except for Coug and ConfidAnon. Fat tony seems fine but who knows.
SIR CYANIDE: For those who wonder; I will support a lynch on Zang or Jack.
StragerCoug: I still like my SCyan-Zang-Jack theory.
The Quintastic One: Beyond Jack I have gut scum read on Strangercoug. Fat Tony is also really suspicious to me.
Vivi57: I can see the mafia team being zang, jack, cruelty
Zang: my top suspects are sir cyanide and Jack.
Zhero: Other than Cruelty, StrangerCoug and Sir Cyanide are good alternatives

Of note, that's 7 of the 9 lists mentioning Jack: that's all of them except his and mine. Zang's next up at 6.

Get well soon, because I can't defend against the invisible...

I can't speak for Cruelty, but..

Iso 4 reads like a setup to excuse future questionable behavior ahead of time. Your back-and-forth with Jack seems off somehow; the posted game set-up was so vanilla it feels weird to me that you would be that suspicious of it. When you went after TQO it felt like you were pushing the easy lynch, and the same thing comes in with Zang later on. You list Sir Cyanide as a top suspect but haven't made much of a case on him, despite complaining that nobody's helping you lynch him.

It all comes off looking like you're more concerned about getting a lynch than getting a correct lynch.

You're right, but this isn't actually game related except in the fact that I've been busy + disillusioned/bored with mafia lately. Seem to have gotten a second wind so this should change from now on.

Understandable, the bulk of the case is a lack of content, so more content is definitely nice.

[Zhero]

That post was made with the expectation that nobody would take such an excuse.

But then why make it?

As for Zang, he STILL doesn't have a good reason for having hammered TheButtonmen, a lynch I never liked in the first place.

Eh, it was a premature hammer on a player that was basically an inevitable lynch anyway. It was a bad play, we agree there, but I'm not sure it's a scummy play; scum gets nothing but unwanted attention from such a move.

My case on SIR CYANIDE is:

1. trying to policy lynch TQO,
2. trying to get us to ignore him when that didn't work,
3. misrepresenting my stance on TQO-SCyan, and
4. dismissing AGar's case on Vivi as a policy lynch, which is hypocritical given point 1.

Cool, I can see where you're coming from there. Sir C's been setting off alarm bells off and on for me, but I've been a bit worried that it was mostly just because of his abrasive playstyle. I'll be curious to hear from his replacement.

ok

unvote, vote zang

After the modkill we're down to 9 people, so it's only 5 to lynch, I assume. That would make this L-1, so nobody quickhammer or anything in the confusion, please.

That said, that's.. kinda votehoppy. What happened to your case on Jack? This has some eerie parity with your vote on TBM earlier.

[Zhero]

Oh yeah, and happy scumday, Fat_Tony.

[Zhero]

I am

So why aren't you? And why are you willing to? You haven't mentioned Cruelty much until now..

Also, hello to our new replacements!

[Zhero]

sorry, did not have time to post explaination but he jumped on tbms and now my wagon with little explaination.

The irony is palpable. Not really doing a whole lot for your case here.

If I wanted to use my meta as an excuse, then why would I suggest that the cop consider investigating me? The only way I can see this making sense is if I wanted to be bussed.

I think that's the thing that's confusing me here; you didn't actually suggest that the cop investigate you, so the comment lacks context.

[Zhero]

Jazzmyns point about cruelty now seems pertinent.

Mm, which point? I'm not seeing the relevance to Zang's flip.

[Zhero]

Still think Cruelty is scum, even more so now that Zang flipped town. That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting. Jack's point above is a good one as well.

Not liking the massclaim idea; assuming we are in lylo that's 3 lynches we have to get right from here. Outing all of our remaining power roles (if any) at this point just paints targets on them, especially with the doctor gone.

Vivi's posts today look like weak distancing from cruelty.

Not sure what you mean here, Vivi hasn't posted today...

[Zhero]

So what are your thoughts Cruelty?

[Zhero]

Not sure how 636 implicates Jack.

Sir C's posts definitely seemed scummy to me, still waiting for more activity from Jazzmyn to see where that goes.

I agree that Vivi's link in 641 seems weak, but I'm not sure it's much more than overreading the night kill. It's hard to get a read there one way or the other. That's the problem with Vivi's play in general, really.

We need more activity in this game, and probably prods on Jack and Leafsnail.

[Zhero]

Yeah, the conversation seems to have stalled, I get the feeling we're close to sold on the lynch but nobody wants to move that quickly. Cruelty's been my top suspect for awhile, and I'm willing to put my vote on unless there's anything anyone has left to say.

[Zhero]

Now THIS looks like a scumplayer preparing to seal a mislynch. You weren't really attacking him before (649 seems to comment on Sir C more) but you claim he's been your top suspect, and use inactivity as an excuse. But no, you still have to ask everyone's opinions, just to make sure those already on cruelty don't unvote.

My vote was on Cruelty throughout Day 2, and I mentioned he was my primary suspect then. He's my strongest scum read: I don't like the way he deflects attention by promising more information with little follow-up. His only defense seems to be that's it's not scummy so much as lazy, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to take that at face value.

So tell me - why are you "sold" on this lynch, especially considering you've made no real comment about lynching cruelty today before this post? I mean, apart from

That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting.

Which, while anti-town, is hardly damning.

It's not the votes themselves so much as the motives, or lack thereof. His vote on TBM was the first and really only time he expressed suspicion of him, and his arguement that the lynch was inevitable anyway felt really weird to me in a Day 1 with TQO, Zang, and is-he-a-cop-Jack running around. His vote on Zang is similarily lynch-for-lynching's-sake.

and Zhero, for attempting to jump on the wagon without being noticed.

My intent was the exact opposite. It's looking (to me, anyway) like the Cruelty wagon is building steam, and I'd rather hear from the people that don't agree with the lynch

before

we consign ourselves to another 'inevitable' lynch. If I was as certain as you think, I'd have voted already.

[Zhero]

That sounds about right.

Vote: Cruelty

[Zhero]

I was getting impatient day 3 for Vivi and Zhero to hammer cruelty. I found it humorous how they posted within a few minutes.

Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure how much of Vivi's lurkerdom was an act, so I deliberately didn't vote right after she posted out of worry that it'd sit there for 3 days and look weird. LyLo makes me nervous

I don't think the game was unbalanced, though the investigation getting NKed right off the bat may have tilted things a bit. Having a godfather and a jailkeeper with no corresponding cop or vig made me feel a lot more cautious.

Good game though, I had a lot of fun. Thanks for modding, and thanks to everyone else for playing.